Hi. I'm new here, but I'm totally in. I've been married to a woman with undiagnosed ADHD for 13 years now with 6 kids. My wife just got officially diagnosed a few weeks ago, after I had basically given up on "my plight" as a man condemned to live in "trash can". This is how I often felt. That feeling of giving in was good in a way, but anger and resentment always seems to creep back at some point.
Anyway, after my wife's diagnosis we began to talk about getting an ADHD coach in addition to her taking medication. Our conversation started off as 99 percent of our conversations do. She gives her reasons, I repeat them and point out where I disagree and she tells me I don't understand or am not listening, or don't want to listen, and then changes the language of what she said in order to re-explain. I then tell her that that's what I thought she said and that my response was still valid. She then again tells me, I don't get it, and this can go on, ad nauseam. Here is a short synopsis of this argument about getting an ADHD coach (omitting the anger, screaming and crying):
I start off by mentioning, "the psychiatrist recommended that we get an ADHD coach along with the medication".
My wife responds, "I know, but I can't just yet, I won't have some organized person coming into my house and start bossing me around in a controlling and demeaning manner, I can have my mother to do that".
I tell her, "It's not supposed to be a bossy organized person, an ADHD coach is a trained professional that has experience with people with ADHD and knows how to be sensitive to your issues about feeling attacked".
She says, "I don't feel attacked, you don't get it. I'm not ready to have someone come in here and tell me what to do, I know what to do, let me try the medication first."
I respond, "They are not just going to tell you what to do"
"I need to work out my own system not go by someone else's system"
I say, "but you've tried that for years and haven't been successful, they don't just give you a system. If we find a good with with recommendations, she will be a well trained professional that will understand your strengths and weaknesses and will work with you. She will listen to what you say and make suggestions based on what you want to accomplish".
Now we've reached tears and yelling "you just don't get it, you don't listen to me. I cannot have someone trying to control my life."
I follow up again, "I understand what you are saying, and I'm telling you that they will not come in and try to control you'
She says, "That's not what I said. I didn't say I don't want someone controlling me"
I say, "Fine, it doesn't matter what you said. The language doesn't matter. OK. let's say hypothetically it was possible that there was a person that would allow you to do whatever you want and only listen to you and just help you implement whatever you chose to do in terms of getting organized. All they will do is observe and assist. No bossing"
"There is no such person like that."
"Let's just pretend. Totally hypothetical"
"I still wouldn't do it. I would still feel like they are bossing me around"
"Even if they didn't even say anything to you, but just observed?"
"Yes"
It finally dawned on me what was going on here. She was describing how it would feel for her, not what would actually be taking place. I was focused on the reality of what would take place, and she was focused on the feeling that that reality would cause her and describing it as the actual reality. This has been going on for 13 years! I've been pulling my hair out for 13 years, agonizing about how there was no rationality in the world, there was never any logic to her responses. It turns out that many of these miscommunications may have been because she is really describing how she would feel using the language of describing what would actually be taking place. I pointed this out to her and she hesitantly agreed. "yeah", she said, "I guess that is what I'm doing." She is communicating her perception of a situation, not the situation itself. I don't think she realized there was a difference, and I was so attuned to the difference that I took it for granted that she would also take this difference into consideration when communicating. I have a feeling that this was an important step in improving our communication, especially since I will be on the lookout for this perception vs reality dichotomy in the future.
Thank you for taking the time
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
Thank you for taking the time to describe this situation. I think your observation is correct. My question, though, is whether your WIFE is able to understand that she is talking about feelings and that feelings need not stand in the way of doing things. Because if she doesn't understand it, then I think it unlikely that there will be changes in communication and, more important, in your wife's willingness to work on changing her behavior.
I'll give an example (from my marriage). My husband has not looked for a job since getting fired more than four years ago. He has told me that he feels attacked when I bring up the topic. I do not perceive it as an attack when I bring it up. But I understand that he feels as though he is being attacked. Nevertheless, I think that employment is a topic that we must, as a married couple, be able to talk about. My husband, however, thinks that I shouldn't bring up the topic because it makes him feel bad. I think my husband should work with his therapist on uncoupling the topics and the feelings and the actions, so that topics don't automatically lead to feelings that result in my husband not wanting to do anything. No luck yet.
Rosered, are we married to the same guy??
Submitted by Sueann on
Mine lost his last paying job in May 2011. He has refused to look for another, saying my work on the computer (which he lived off of) prevented him from job hunting. After a little more than a year of that (no applications at all that I could see), l lost my job and gave up and moved in with my daughter and her family. He is now working with some sort of "internship" through Goodwill. He goes to classes and works a couple days a week. He gets food stamps and his mother pays half his rent. The landlord agreed to take half the rent until he found a job, and is now agitating me to make up the difference. (I did not participate in that agreement. I'd have told the landlord to evict his ass.) Over the winter he took in a stray dog, who pooped all over one room. He has not cleaned it up. If the landlord sees that, he's gone, and I think I will be sued as well. But when I mention it, he tells me I have no right to control him because I left him. All his effort over the last year (not working, not cleaning up the poop, etc.) appears to be "nah, nah, nah, nah! You can't control me." And you're right, we can't discuss it. He's also refused to seek medical care or therapy. I wish therapists could do as you say, and help them to understand that we don't hate them, and aren't attacking them, because we want them to act in certain ways. And when you are over 50, as he now is, you can't expect every moment of every day to be "fun". You may have to work at something-your job, your marriage, therapy. But if it's work, he won't do it.
Ride for free
Submitted by jennalemon on
Right now they are on a free ride. The non ADD spouse is footing the bills, doing the work and holding the accountability. As long as we are kept upset, distracted, trying so hard to make the "US" in us work, they are getting their needs met. The need to have their own way, their way. The need to "win". The need to have the attention of our thoughts and be special in not having to pull the same load as everyone else. The need to not have anyone tell them what to do. They don't need to be made different than they are. They don't want change because it is working for them. They are somewhat smug that they have servants who "do" for them while they have "outsmarted" us.
We cannot change them. We can accept them or leave them. Dh has even said as much many times, "If you don't like it, you know what you can do."
I apologize to anyone who is ADD and not like this. I know there are some...maybe lots....maybe most of those who are on this site, trying who are not like this. However the people in this particular thread are dealing with someone like my dh. Their bad habits are our family problems and they are able to not let that register in their minds...they really think they are doing much more than they are doing...glass half full=glass full enough. They are wondering what we are complaining about.
In the meantime, they don't feel a need to think about our needs. Empty glass=glass full enough....it is their delusion.
Straight talk
Submitted by jennalemon on
Muncie, Do you get to talk in terms of feelings and ignore reality too? I sense there is some manipulation going on in your relationship. She is playing you. If you live a long life together like this, one day you will wake up and not trust your own mind anymore trying to make sense of what she is NOT saying (instead she is denying/distracting) in order to keep anyone from changing her.
I have lived this same life for over 30 years....not knowing what was going on and partly blaming myself for not being able to understand. All the while, now I see, the most important thing to him was not love and family but rather to keep himself in tact without answering to anyone. These people are fine the way they are but they should not be married and speak as though they are willing to share a life together with someone else. If they don't want to compromise and share and work as a team, they should stay single. But instead they "work" it so that they get to be themselves and someone else gets to try to manage a shared life with them.
This is not a message to all ADDers, just those who happen to be like dh who I can now recognize by the pain left behind with sabotage conversation and with their unwillingness to try or cooperate.
My husband and I talked about this...
Submitted by Sueann on
when we were engaged. I asked him, often, if he was willing to leave his mother, stop being taken care of, work full-time and pull his weight in the maintenance of our household. He was/is perfectly physically healthy, and I have a significant degree of mobility impairment. He said, yes, yes, that's what I want. I was about to leave my mother's house when we started dating. But he didn't mean a word of it... He hung up on customers at work until he got fired, acted like a small boy "do I have to?" whenever i had a need. I was working 2 jobs but couldn't afford my medication. I said if I have another stroke and die, it will be your fault. He said, no, you made a decision to pay the rent and not buy your medicine so it's your fault. I would have nothing to do with it. But he was choosing to earn nothing.
Straight talk
Submitted by How Long will t... on
Jennalemon,
I love your first paragraph when you say "one day you will wake up and not trust your own mind anymore trying to make sense of what she is NOT saying". In my case it is a he. I have been married 18 years and walk around in a befuddled state most of the time following what should have been a simple conversation with my husband. My husband is wonderful in so many ways, unlike a lot of ADHD men he IS able to maintain employment, he does help around the house, he does like to be social and go places. But honestly his inability to have a simple conversation without it turning into some kind of argument is exhausting. So while we could be on a beautiful vacation, he will find some way to have conflict. In my research I have found that the ADHD person needs that adrenalin rush, and when things are good they create conflict to obtain this rush. This is exactly what my husband does because I am a very laid back, patient person and he needs some excitement. Because of this I live every day with a wall up, walking on egg shells trying to avoid any conflict. But of course, he is so good a manipulating a conversation and hearing things I don't say just to make a good case as to how I started a fight. I cannot tell you how many times I have looked for an apartment because I have had enough. But then I reason with myself and say is mis-communication really a reason to leave your husband? People don't understand to the extent this happens. When I say I go to bed and say to myself, it was a good day- no fights, because that is so rare you have to say that's not normal. How did you do it for 30 years?
Individualism
Submitted by jennalemon on
I cannot have someone trying to control my life. I'm not ready to have someone come in here and tell me what to do, I know what to do, you just don't get it, you don't listen to me. I still wouldn't do it. I would still feel like they are bossing me around,
She is telling you who she is. She is also telling you that YOU are not going to change her. She is speaking to YOU, about YOU. She does not want ANYONE bossing her around which, in her mind, is the same as compromising herself to team up with someone else's needs and wants ie: the marriage agreement. Her individualism is important to her. Independence is more important to her than compromise. Her interests are of utmost importance and she will fight to keep her freedom from ANYONE....even you. She is stronger than you give her credit for.
Individualism: Belief in the primary importance of the individual and in the virtues of self-reliance and personal independence.
Perception and fear
Submitted by sunlight on
Another view:
She has lived the "ADHD struggles" (now officially labelled) for her entire life, before you knew her, and she has known that 'something' was different. Now she feels offially labelled as faulty, and you are attempting to cajole, drag, threaten and force her to be someone else. She is afraid that she cannot move forward, that she can never be like the world wants her to be or tells her she must be, that she will lose herself and her identity. But she wants to succeed, she wants to 'fit in' with the world, she wants to 'belong', and she wants you to love her as she is, all at the same time.
A few weeks since diagnosis is not very long. Perhaps she needs more time to adjust and to feel less threatened.
Sabotage
Submitted by jennalemon on
Where in his letter do you get the message that she "wants to succeed, fit in with the world or belong?" If this were true, she would be setting up schedules for herself to clean and she would TRY what the counselor is suggesting. She would not sabotage the conversation toward her NOT doing something that might help them both. She wants to have things the way they are and not do anything extra AND she wants to be loved just the way she is - no change, let him cope with her. I believe you may be right about many ADDers' intentions but I don't think we can assume this one is trying to work at this by what the writer has given us so far. By what the writer has stated, HE should feel threatened by her lack of cooperation rather than her to feel threatened by his offer to help her.
Assigning character traits vs empathy
Submitted by ShelleyNW on
In the book Mistakes Were Made... but Not By Me, the author shows that people have a tendency to judge other people's behavior based on how they think they would react in the same situation. If I can see that I might behave similarly in the same situation in will likely be empathetic and give them a break. But if I can not imagine that I would ever do the same thing then I will likely assign a character trait to the person, like saying they are lazy or manipulative. This is unfair, especially when dealing with people whose brains are wired differently than our own. Assigning character labels to ADHD symptoms can lead to extreme defensiveness, poor self esteem, anxiety issues, depression, etc which can inhibit the ADHD persons ability to effectively treat the condition.
The conversation above does show that the wife recognizes there are issues to solve. She wants to try medication. And she says she needs to create her own systems. This is actually true. Systems instigated by others are more likely to fail due to lack of ownership. I think that before the coach will be effective, counseling is in order. She needs to be able to see how the disorder is impacting her life, both the strengths and weaknesses, and develop strategies to address the weaknesses. As she learns more, she will likely come to realize how a coach would be an asset. She's just been told that rather than being a lazy, manipulative, self centered witch she's got a brain disorder that can't be cured just by trying harder. I would bet that would be a huge thing to try to come to terms with.
Hi thanks for the feedback. I
Submitted by muncie on
Hi
thanks for the feedback. I must say that my goal was just to share what I felt was a helpful insight. A communication breakdown that had been going on for years which suddenly became understood a little. Honestly, my intent was not to analyze my spouses motives or intentions I do believe that she would like to change if she can. I also believe she will slowly put effort into making changes. The reason she got diagnosed was because she agreed to go to therapy, albeit after years of coaxing. Also, thanks to this diagnosis, I feel that I can be more empathetic. If someone is ill, we normally don't get angry with them because we recognize that it is not their fault. A disorder or disability is the same thing. Thanks to science we now know That these people really do have a chemical imbalance in their brains which strongly affects their behavior. It's really no different than autism or Tourette's These conditions also generate anger and frustration to relatives, but the relatives should always be able to take a step back and say OK this person has a condition that is not their fault.
I'd be interested to hear more about my "insight" in the first comment in this thread. Is this "description of reality based on emotions" something typical with ADHD? In general, it is said that women are more expressive of their emotions and men express themselves more in terms of pure logic and this causes communication problems between spouses. Maybe that was the dynamic I was describing , and it isn't related to ADHD at all.
Actual vs emotional arguments
Submitted by ShelleyNW on
I would say that your wife's arguing her position from what she's feeling versus logic base is a combination of personal content and ADHD argument style. My ADHD husband certainly believes he is arguing based on logical content, but he doesn't listen well to the content provided by me, and therefore doesn't have much capacity to reevaluate during the discussion. So it's likely your wife doesn't feel comfortable with her idea of a coach, but isn't capable of paying attention to your points because of the other conflicts getting in the way right then, like confirmation bias, stress of conflict, and lack of way to prove either point during talk. Suggest she discuss it with the therapist who she can probably view as more of an authority on the subject than she deems you to be.