I want to learn how to re-negotiate - well, our lives! LOL!!!
My outlook for the past 29 years has been "us as a couple" and "my marriage."
Boy, I have everything enmeshed together - the construction business, our relationship with families versus each of our own relationships with people in our families. I walk in and out of permeable boundaries that really mean nothing. And it makes my stomach churn.
I really need to back out of the construction business. My trying to be supportive is not received as such, thus I receive statements that my feelings on things are nothing he can fix. Hmm, not that I wanted them fixed. Maybe just acknowledged and considered. At the current moment that is not working out so well. The truth be told, it is exactly as he said: Every decision he has attempted to compromise in has led him to anger. He tried different things because he "had to." That backfired major big time - for me and him both. I thought I was receiving his support, and he was seething that he "did not want to give in but did it anyway."
I had discovered the wisdom many years ago that we can either be married or work together - trying to do both has us more or less at each others throats. I realize I have not wanted to fully let go of any speck of control I have, so inasmuch I have done the finances. The business is literally financially been run into the ground. It is not like I want to abandon a sinking ship - but I want to extricate myself and let him have the ultimate control.
I am the one sitting here with a stomach ache, while it appears he is status-quo. I feel told-off. I feel disrespected. Of course, not his intent, but it leaves me shut out - by his angry stance.
SO, since I have to work myself out of this entangled mess, I am searching for suggestions on the very first baby step to get out of this, with using the most sincere and positive steps I can.
I have re-read this - and add that I do not want to 'get' out' of this. I want to make it better. Thus, I need steps necessary to turn it around.
Suggestion
Submitted by c ur self on
Why don't you tell him him that you feel like you have brought some stability to the business, but at a cost you are not willing to pay (y'all relationship)...So for the next three months he is on notice that you will do it his way with no suggestions...If at the end of the three months, if your day to day relationship has experienced more of the things it was lacking, mutual respect etc...._____You fill in the blank. At the end of the three months you will decide if you are going to completely step away...Or, continue on...
.Of course this isn't a good plan if you've made up your mind to not be involved....If that's the case you will have to modify it make it your notice....Good luck....
Reads easy
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
C UR Self,
Gosh that sounds wonderful, and how I dream things could be approached in that manner.
I suspect/fear/know he will hear it as an ultimatum, which of course it is to some degree. And that will tick him off. He does not like ultimatums directed at him.
Maybe I am too affected by the unpleasantry that happened this afternoon. Things went sour quite abruptly today. I do not know how to sift through his manner of approaching things, We had a company come out to give an estimate on erecting a privacy style fence to set up a divider between the business materials and our yard. My spouse was open to that. When we saw this company's booth at the fair a few weeks ago, it was his idea for using them for the fence. He even gave suggestions on what he thought would be improvements - such as reinforcements on all posts rather than just the gate posts.
Wish I knew what set him off like a firecracker. It was fine for about 45 minutes after the fence company employee left. I was in the office doing paperwork, and, bang, I heard my spouse coming at the office in hard and heavy and purpose driven steps. He approached me with his hackles up. Approaching the issues he had with the fencing from a variety of angles - none direct.
He ran around Robin Hood's barn with all these questions - with his angry posture and voice - very hard for me to disregard and look past - about how many hours HE has to work and how HARD he has to work for money, etc., et., etc. and we can't just go giving away our money to the first man who comes in our yard. . . . . . . so I had to just detach from the whole conversation.
I know what he meant was - "I would like us to get a second estimate." I KNOW he wanted to get a second estimate. A very prudent idea. Why was that not just a simple question, "Liz, I would like to get a second estimate."
He did not use I statements, he just tried to put some boundaries on my own response, like "I don't want you to get offended, but. . . . . ."
So, I SEE these troubling patterns of communication between him and I. After a while I understand what he wanted. Yet, I just have had it with trying to deal with his angry approach to these things. He said something along the lines of " I know you are not happy, and I deserve to be happy, too."
Just so much, so often, from so many angles. This relationship is a lot - a lot- a lot - of work. I get tense, and anxious and get gripped by my helplessness at affecting a difference. A difference in our relationship. Not in my own life.
I hear his reasoning - he has often made statements like "I didn't tell you because I didn't want you to get mad." No matter how I approached the fact that he had no business trying to direct my emotions like that, he can't understand why it bothers me. The same as his anger at me for feeling hurt when he forgot about me. He would get mad AT ME. "I didn;t do it on purpose so you have no cause to be angry."
Odd for sure. I have tried for years to sort that out. Yes, I know no one likes to hurt anyone. but we ALL goof up. We all make mistakes. We all need to learn to say "I am sorry."
I think I see where your at a little better with this post....
Submitted by c ur self on
Well, I know it's not and easy thing for some of us to have a life...but, you can keep hearing those purposeful foot steps and the anger...Cause it's what you know...Or you can make a decision concerning your life...
Well good luck Liz...
LOL! Attached at the hip
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
I got married in 1984. I attached myself at the hip. It was 'the marriage' that has been the focus. The Christian way. The husband is the head of the home.
Then 'waiting' for him to address the negative ADHD behaviors became the focus.
The "what will my children and family think if I separate" became the focus.
It has been try this, try that, wait until the meds have a chance to do their job, read this book, listen to this tape, watch this show. . . . . understand him, understand him, understand him.
Separation has loomed in the future and I have scrambled to take any different road. I DO NOT WANT IT TO BE the self fulfilling prophesy of "That which you fear you become."
SO, I will look at separation as maybe 'the answer' instead of 'the enemy.' The answer to peace. That fence was a balm, a way to find peace, a step in the right direction to work together - and it backfired in my own face. And maybe it didn't. Maybe it was a slap of reality. Why should I have thought this would have worked out any differently than anything else I have tried.
I will ponder the idea that the money in the bank for the fence - which was from my part-time job this summer - may be put to better use in getting a different place for me to live. I have to start focusing on the positives of that, rather than it being the worst possible outcome.
Oh the irony of it all - my 55th birthday is tomorrow. And my spouse has a doctor's appointment tomorrow to test him for depression, as it has been suggested he may need anti-depressants. Hope that works for him. It will hopefully help him have a clearer mind into looking at this situation differently. I don't think those meds will fix my marriage. They may be the way to find happiness.
Happy Birthday Liz
Submitted by kellyj on
No sarcasm intended...really. lol
I'll throw my two bits in here for what it's worth........and I'll also respond to something you said in your the other post in the blog about retreating when you were correcting your "tough love" statement. I knew what you meant and didn't read into it that you were actually saying that it was the same......kind'a like in other words. I get it but I also could see from Melissa's response to it ( the dangers of approaching things this way) and the "kernel" of truth within it. I think there is something in there (the kernel) that is messing up the gears.
I think you are right in thinking that the situation with the fence would be different.....just because you may doing something different would not necessarily mean your husband will in fact, if his behavior is pathological to begin with then you should expect him to do exactly as he has been instead of the opposite.....your bad in this case but only in thinking ( or believing )not in intention.
I was saying something very similar to you in the blog post about the "tough love" thing when I was saying how much I hate confrontation ( which I do)....but I have also learned how to do it better and had some practice at it. It's not nearly as bad for me as it used to be because I've learned some new skills that I didn't have before. But it still doesn't feel comfortable yet and I project a whole lot of that into it right from the start even when I KNOW al of this and I still do it. It comes from not being comfortable with setting boundaries and holding on to them with me. It's about taking full ownership of what you believe and want for yourself to the point that no one can take it from you.....because you own it. It's yours.
That's the part that doesn't feel right sometimes. That feeling is telling you something and you just haven't learned to interpret what it's trying to say to you. Once you realize this (the message that it's sending) you will also recognize it every time it starts talking. And if you know in heart of hearts what you want and what you believe in then you can make good choices accordingly.
But you have to know what you want first. Not "the Christian way" or "your husbands way."....or your parents or neighbor or or or........
You have to know what YOUR way is and what YOU want first before you can take ownership of anything that is YOU.
I think what Melissa was saying ( in the other post and I heard her myself this way too.... and need to apply it to myself as well) that the resigning, retreating, giving in, standing your ground, tough love.....all the above under one heading. It's a compromise in dysfunction and at best.....you'll only get balance within dysfunction not real authentic balance or happiness.
But that requires YOU to also be authentic too. Which comes from knowing what you want in the first place .......and then speaking from that place because you own it. It yours and it belongs to you.
That, instead of waiting for another person to do something or say something in order for you to be that way or tell you how to feel, what to do or how to think.
You gotta have it inside of you first....you have to know what it is exactly that you want and then say so. Not demand, manipulate, coerce or fall into tears so someone will come rescue you.....but say what you want, ask if that's possible and then give the other person a chance to do it for you if it's reasonable and get them to agree because they want to not because they have to. If they don't and keep not following through then you can tell them your disappointed or sad that they let you down instead of getting angry........and possibly not rely on them again to do that thing. And then move on.
I think your right about the whole meshing enmeshing thing too. That really gets in the way of knowing what you want....it muddies the water so you can't see through it but....if you filter the mud out the water is as clear as it ever was to begin with.
That's also part of the knowing what you want part too and I know from my own experience that this is not an easy task in itself.
FYI: I didn't mean to poo poo the "Christian Way" thing you said. If that's what you want then it should make you happy to be that way (whatever way that is?) but it didn't sound like from the context of what you said that it was working for you ( again, what ever that is?) I say this because I too grew up with this kind of thinking and have watched how this has changed dramatically over time as nearly everything else has changed too. I'm not so sure that this thinking (the man being head of the house hold ) has the same meaning by todays standards as it did 2000 years ago. Know what I mean?
Hope you take a day off and have a happy birthday......do what you want today!
J
Wow! that's jam packed with lots of info
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
Well J,
I will print out your response and read it bit by bit, percolate on it, and let it also digest.
Thanks for your reply. Thanks for the birthday wishes, too! I LOVE my birthdays!
Liz
Waiting for the clarity to set in . . . .
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
It's a compromise in dysfunction and at best.....you'll only get balance within dysfunction not real authentic balance or happiness.
I really am not wrapping my mind around this. I still can't grasp how setting a boundary - "such as deciding when I am at the receiving end of crabby and grouchy behavior, I will go in another room" - is deciding for myself I do not want to subject myself to his bad mood. How is that not punishing him? Or manipulation?
I get embarrassed by his indignation at others. How can prideful behavior, always insisting it is his way, be due to his poor self esteem? Boy it sure seems just the opposite, puffed up self esteem.
Ok, I can't change his behavior, so where does that leave me? With all the housework, all the making the money work, a messy yard, a spouse who works late, and forgets appointments, and is prickly.
I DO WANT to look at my behavior. How am I anything other than being foolish by subjecting myself to being married to someone who just wont "work together" to make things nice for both of us?
I am not frustrated. I am not angry. I feel sorta like a deer in the headlights trying to reap the wisdom out of these posts.
the "compromise in dysfunction"....
Submitted by kellyj on
is settling for something that no one wants where no one is really happy and feeling fulfilled. It's like only getting one slice of the pie but never having the whole thing.
It's always a win/lose instead of a win/win......and settling for the win/lose as a permanent way of living.
What I have come to realize for myself is that I have been responsible for giving away too much of what is mine without even realizing it ( the ownership thing I was talking about )....... which puts you in a deficit right from the start instead of taking possession of it or having a right to it.
For me that comes from being raised in a family situation that required me to do this as part of my role but it was a dysfunctional role born out of ( and me being born into ) a dysfunctional family dynamic.
Dysfunction = Imbalance......and nature abhors a vacuum.....when one person in the group or partnership is a black hole then they tend to need to fill the void with more than what is fair or rightfully theirs. Needy is another word for it.
And if you are always giving away what should be yours and trying to fill their endless hole up then you end up depleted and doing it to yourself......... voluntarily!
What is even worse is when you don't realize that you are doing this and that can come from not realizing that there might be something better out there.
This is where roles come into it....... and including but not limited to the things we are told by our parents, religious leaders and society at large ( media, community, church etc.)
The problem comes when what we believe is wrong but we continue blindly down the path simply because it is in front of you and that's all you know. And that's all you know because the source or builders of the road you are on were also wrong and didn't know it either and kept on building it full steam in the wrong direction......
Another way to say this is what I told my therapist a number of years ago telling him ....." it felt like when I was born ( being the youngest sibling in my family)...I was born on stage in a theater in the middle of a live stage play where the script and story line were written long before I was even conceived. My role and part of this play had been predetermined and my lines were already written for me. The expectation was that I would simply do what I was told, learn my lines and fill my role when called on to do this by my parents and siblings. ( out of duty and obligation to the play ).
That is until the day I found that someone had accidently left the basement door open and I stepped outside into the fresh air, smelled the grass, listened to the birds singing and looked up to see clouds, blue sky and sunshine for the first time. Once this happens there is no going back inside the building and ever being the same again even if you only experienced this for a few minutes before being yanked back inside by the powers that be. You realize that what you believed was the entire world is just the inside of a building...... and you are in some contrived play carrying out a predetermined script or role that has been set in front of you because you simply don't know anything else.......or anything better.
I don't know if this made any sense or made everything I've said even more confusing?
I guess in light of what I just said....the question I would ask myself is " am I trying to create boundaries or trying to rewrite the script ( and my role ) of some dysfunctional play that I am in?? Or am I outside the theater and creating a different reality for myself and my husband even if he is still inside the building?
I'm sorry if this doesn't make any sense but it is how I see things.......my ADHD brain. ha ha
J
I get it!!!
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
J,
thanks. Very much, quite actually! I get this. Really I do. I just posted in another section, basically on the same situation. It is a response to an old post from 6 years ago about living separately.
I am only human, this I know!!!
Liz
I'm Glad
Submitted by kellyj on
From the ADHD side of things....we have our own unique set of challenges that other people take for granted sometimes I think. Not the challenges in themselves....only that we have them.
From the non-ADHD side of things you can't possibly know what this is like or even what these things are or how they affect us...but you certainly can see how they manifest themselves and feel how they affect you
Either way.....you have to be aware of yourself enough to communicate what you want or don't want clearly enough to the other person so they can understand. It's another thing when they don't want to understand because of their own issues.....over riding common sense or rational thought.
I believe the clinical term for this is " competing Neurosis".......each person's "issues" taking on a life of their own and then going into competition for the resources "it" needs. "It" being the Neurosis not you.
And for people with ADHD.....you get ADHD+Neurosis vs. Neurosis. We just one upped y'all. ha ha
I'm kidding of course but it really is closer to reality than just a joke I'm afraid. That's where you really need some good glasses and the clear ability to see in order to navigate and see where you are going.....maybe first to see where you are to begin with?
But if our ADHD controls us....it also controls you. The same is true for everyone else's Neurotic behavior. It doesn't define us unless we allow it too. In either case you can do something about it to a certain extent....at least to the point that it doesn't have a negative affect on others.
What I've discovered is that you have to learn how to not let it affect you negatively first. The part about not letting it affect others will come naturally ( the balance thing I mentioned ) and it becomes much easier to do once you've learned how to do it for yourself first.
Trying to do it the other way around is like putting a band- aid on a severed leg. It doesn't work very well or for for very long.
J
ADHD? Could be, but maybe not all of it.
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
J,
I think all marriages have two people who live together and each have certain habits that could set them sailing on rough waters. The trick is to decide if the ride is a horror or is it fun.
I am organized. My family likes knowing where to find things. There is a home for most things. DVDs are alphabetized on the shelves. My family likes knowing where the movie is they want to watch. These are things Liz does. Things I like to do. I do not demand nor expect anyone to do the same. I don't mind the "You must be a little bit OCD" ribbing I get. It is not an obsession. Just a way of being. Serves well in the administration of the construction business. Need a bill or tax form? I know where it is. Or, I can tell you exactly where to find it. And then we have the usual junk drawer that holds all the things that just have no special place to go, but that I don;t want to live on counter tops. I am happy I am the Go-To person in my home.
I know my spouse is ADHD, as he was professionally diagnosed at The Cleveland Clinic. I know a lot of the issue we have are NOT ADHD related. Sure, its untreated negative behaviors do make a jumble of things.
It would be an impossible task to learn not be affected by being forgotten. Or not having someone complete the tasks they said they would do. Or just let it be A.O.K. that if I want a clean kitchen, I need to clean it. And if I want a tidy yard, I need to tidy it up. And it is just peachy if I am counting on someone to carry their share of the daily load, and they just do not. And my needs are disregarded, but their's being met are paramount.
These issues here are surely more than just ADHD. I know he is suffering from depression. And anxiety. And carrying the pain of his past. with him - EVERY DAY OF HIS LIFE.
I cannot take my spouse's inventory. He has to do his own. I have taken mine many times over. I got lots of quirks and personality weaknesses that I want to address. And. . . . my spouse will agree with that full heartedly. LOL!!! He used to make disparaging remarks about how late I slept in - yet nothing I said to explain my actions had any value. Like I waited till everyone was asleep so I could get the office work done without interruption. I would set the alarm for 8 hours after I went to bed. Thus, if I got up at 11 am, it was because I was working on paperwork until 3 am. I am a night-owl and it works for me!!!! Still does. I don't need my spouses approval.
What matters to me is that I get my jobs done and fulfill my obligations. Do I complete what my children needed from me? Are the bills paid? Is the house tidy. Are the dishes done? Is the laundry finished? Is their food in the fridge and the pantry? And then there is an hour or two to unwind or relax.
I have no qualms admitting I was very needy when I met my spouse. And when I married my spouse. I worked hard to learn to be self-sufficient, and to be content with me, and to love myself.
I have evolved, and changed, and grown.
It is NOT satisfactory to live in a messy yard, and have to do all the chores if I want them done, and live with a man who is bitter, complains I am punishing him, and yells about our lack of intimacy.
Treat someone poorly, ignore their emotional needs, insist things go your way all the time, disregard their requests and hopes and dreams, insist there is something wrong with their feelings, insist every issue is caused by them - no not anything you did, just them complaining about it - . . . . . . . and then wonder why they have no romantic attraction to you. Are you kidding me?!?!?!!? I choose not to learn how to allow these things to NOT affect me negatively.
One or two episodes every now and then, sure. But I am on overload, and feel it would be foolhardy to just pretend things did not bother me.
Clear as a bell to me.
I am far from perfect. I just am. I have expectations that many others have from their spouse. To be loved. Respected. Honored. Cherished. Valued.
I am depleted - in my relationship to my spouse. I no longer want or am willing to carry the full load.
Liz
Hey Liz
Submitted by kellyj on
You sound like my mom.....in a very complimentary way. She was very neat and organized and I cannot forget what a blessing that was for me even though I didn't know it at the time. ( not knowing about ADHD) I needed that structure more than I realized and it is paying off in dividends as even I write this. It is the foundation and examples I draw from in trying to be better at this for myself. I do see all the good things that I had and have with my family as well even though I talk about the negative ones here simply as a starting place in figuring my own issues out.
But first I wanted to say that I wish I could offer some help to your particular situation with your husband but I can't. This is where I depart from responding to the non spouses who are married to us ADHD'ers ( even though I think I already have at times? oops lol ) I guess for the most part... I have been playing devils advocate here as much for myself as to differentiate the ADHD from all the other stuff that we carry with us into our marriages. All that other stuff is what I have been working on with my therapist (personally) and it has really made a difference......now I'm working on the ADHD stuff specifically.
Looking back, I don't know if I could have done it the other way around? Putting my self in your husbands shoes ( and remembering back some years ).....I can't say I wasn't there myself. But I also got divorced because of it!
Needless to say this does change ones perspective! lol
Of course my divorce was not 100% because of me or my ADHD but I did get a real good look at my part of it and finally got to the point where I simply got tired of it and wanted to do something about it for myself.
My wife and I went to see our councilor yesterday and he told us both basically that what ever contribution a person makes good or bad comes 100% from them and "is not contingent on anything anyone else does." Change also comes from wanting to do it for yourself not only because the other person wants you to for them alone. I've heard him say this many times in different ways and I already know from experience that he's right. You can't make someone change who doesn't want it for themselves first and I found this to be the only way I was able to make any lasting changes for the better. (and still am )
But I also understand the kind of things you are saying when you are with someone who simply won't take any responsibility themselves and blames everything wrong with them on someone else. Blaming and complaining......and bitter and unhappy. These things seem to go together.
But if you are carrying around resentment because of his behavior or lack of it can you really be happy yourself? That's part of the "being contingent on the other person" thing.........whether they do this or not. If this is what is standing in your way to being happy then you are making your happiness contingent on him right? If your feeling resentment then you need to take care of that feeling and kick it to the curb.
I'm saying this because this is exactly what I am working so hard to do myself.....not getting/or staying angry because of something my wife is doing. I'm the only one who can do anything about that and it starts with not making my own anger be contingent on anything my wife does.
But there is a point where not being angry becomes feeling depleted and unfulfilled which is what Melissa was saying about living with a not so good feeling all the time even if it isn't overtly negative or hostile.
And that's also part of what I was trying to explain about stepping outside of the "building" ( the one where the bad play is taking place) and feeling like you are only 1/2 way happy.
But again....only you can do anything about that part too. It all comes down to you in the end.
I grit my teeth every time my therapist tells me this because there is nothing to argue against because he's right. I grit my teeth because it's difficult and I want it to be easier than it is but just the same.....no pain, no gain. It's never easy but it is worth it in the end because of I feel when I can get myself to do it which only proves that it works.
That is how I know when it is working......that I don't feel either good or bad necessarily. I would say more neutral or balanced......but definitely without resentment or negative feelings all of the time. That's the best indicator for me.
J
It's Indifference vs. The Loving Detachment
Submitted by kellyj on
I realized after responding to you what I've been trying to say....funny how that works? And in reference to what Melissa said.
FYI: again, this is why I'm here.
I've found that in the past when I reach the point of not caring any more things become much easier and simpler. Things also don't bother that much and I go about my merry way. This is also when I've been called an asshole in the past. Hey no skin off my back...who cares? I don't.
It's perfect....nothing bothers you...you don't get upset at anything or anyone and you become completely indifferent to everything. I've done this and it does work really well......at least for me, not so much for anyone else.
So why not do this as way to be OK?
I just stated the reasons.
It also comes with a price.....there's a hint of anger and negativity that you have to live with in that peace and solace that you enjoy from not caring. You also don't reap any benefits from the good things the other person has to give since you've cut yourself off from that too.
That's what Melissa was saying in her earlier post. I get it because I've done it....and it does insulate you from feeling bad for sure but for obvious reasons, is not a long term way to be in a relationship with someone.
The loving detachment is much more difficult and it leaves you vulnerable to feeling bad as well. It's the no pain no gain I was referring to but it's also how to be be OK and not lose yourself and the other person by isolating and insulating yourself from them.
Indifference was the word that I had been looking for and it just came to me. That's what you don't want to do and it's the easy path and a quick fix not but not a good long term strategy.
There you go.
J
I want real!
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
J,
I did the indifference thing for a while. With the thought of "fake it till I make it." It ran its course, and I got to the place of "This is no longer working . It is not for me." I got lots of thoughts and feelings and ideas and dreams and hopes and wants. Places I want to see. Things I want to try.
I want to be loving and kind and patient. I know how many years of counseling etc, it took for me to figure out the right depression meds , and to get my emotions on an acceptable keel. What I mean by that is I can identify my emotional highs (if you can call it that) from the birth of new babies, and weddings, and parties, and engagement announcements, and pregnancy announcements, and Christmas, and my birthday. I identify my emotional lows from hearing about a friend's cancer, or deaths, or accidents, or fires, or horrible things beyond our control. I revel in the highs. I ENJOY them. I feel the lows. I sit with them. Allow them their time, walk out of them, and go on with life. Now my life happily bumps along with the everyday ups and downs, and the extreme highs and lows are few and far between.
Some of this stuff just evolved for me from the normal progression of life. Maturity. I got past 50 and lots of things just do not matter anymore!
I have done lots of exploration, and work, through counseling. I know how to live. I know how to discern what I like and don't like. I know how to discern what I want and do not want.
What I guess I am desperately seeking is wisdom. Someone to give me the facts that I do not have. If I know what I have, then I can make good choices. I do not want perfection, I want live-able. I want do-able. If a person has epilepsy, and they fall to the floor with a seizure, I would not huff an puff and get frustrated and yell 'Enough of that already. I am sick of this. You just need to stop having those seizures' That would be outrageous behavior on my part.
Yet in all honesty, I am overwhelmed by how many different ways I tried to rework what I have. No, I really do not need anyone else to tell me that the balance of the responsibility is on my shoulders. Or how unfair it is that I need to clean the house and kitchen and yard if I want them tidy. Or how cross I felt when I went to put something away in the RV, and was greeted by an unkind smell. Dirty dishes from my spouses outing with his friend, at the end of August, 5 weeks ago, were still in the sink. I do not need anyone to agree with me to know that was irresponsible. Who would say, "I'm finished" because of a sink of dirty dishes? No one; but add that to all the other idiosyncrasies I have been trying to be indifferent to, and it just ain't happening for me.
I am tired of the fakeness.
I am tired of pretending,.
I am tired of responsibility.
I am tired of feeling overwhelmed.
I am tired of feeling like I am deceiving the world.
I am tired of being in debt.
I am tired of wondering what my children will say.
I am tired of feeling alone.
I am tired of feeling disappointed.
Now, what to do about it!!!!!!!!!!!
Melissa said this in the thread on her blog post:
As for finding a common goal, do you ever talk with each other about your dreams? Where you might be in the future? Or perhaps you might talk about what you love doing right now? If you share dreams, then perhaps that will help you find a common place to move forward to.....
I think you either have to sit down in a different mode - something that helps your partner see that this is something different from the norm - and say something like "I think we have this incredibly serious problem that needs to be addressed, and I don't think we are doing the best job of it...we need help - probably professional help - to get at this important issue that feels like it's tearing us apart."
Best case scenario is your partner pays attention and opens up to the dialogue. Worse case is your partner doesn't listen...and then you are exactly where you have been.
Curses, I AM exactly where I have been. I THINK I have not one single leaf I have left unturned.
I Hear You Liz
Submitted by kellyj on
I have been there. It feels like you're stuck. I get it. Back to trying to get someone else to change and it feels like trying to drive a square peg into a round hole....it gets just so far in and then...........
I did do what Melissa said about sitting down in a different mode and it did work. But my wife and I both have dreams and she is also motivated to have something better so it did open things up a bit. It's a start. I think with us the problem lies with just how we get there.......we're both much different in that way even though we're headed in the same general direction..
But back to someone who won't budge......what do you do? I don't know. Making the best of it goes back to acceptance and being happy with the things you've got. I don't really like the idea of walking around and putting bows on everything either......a little too close to denial for me. Been there...done that....not going back!
But being on the fence simply sucks. It's gets uncomfortable after a while.......splinters and a sore rump! ha
That's sounds more like "you can't get there from here."
Being overwhelmed is the killer though. If you can start by not being overwhelmed you might find your perspective will change and things will look different. Back to acceptance or leave. Leaving will definitely change your perspective!
There might be something in between leaving and staying stuck however but that's something only you would be able to find ( thinking outside the box). I've seen people do some pretty creative things by staying married but still living somewhat independently....not for me but it seems to work for some.
But you have to stop waiting for other people to do something for you need from them and history says it's unlikely to happen. That's just torturing yourself. Stop torturing yourself! Please!
The more you need and want things from your husband.....the more opportunity there is for disappointment. The more you can get your needs met by yourself the better off you may be which means finding ways to be happy with him or without him first ( even if you stay with him indefinitely)
Back to acceptance and finding things that bring you joy and keep doing those things.
One thing to remember though.......no one ever said it's always suppose to be good.....even in the same day!
If everyday that something goes wrong is a bad day......... then all you've got is bad days everyday.
J
Life should be simpler:)
Submitted by c ur self on
I got a lesson from my granddaughter....She is 27 months, and just starting to speak in complete sentences...My daughter the one w/ADHD, was busying herself in the kitchen. She said Kat opened the frig...and was standing there looking inside...She looked at her mother and pointed at a sippy cup 1/2 full of water and said "I want dat"....My daughter told her OK you can have it. So, she picked it up and took a big hit of it....And said "I don't wike it!" Put it in the Frig. shut the door and walked away:)....Now it''s obvious from the outside of the cup you could not tell what was inside...But, that didn't keep my 27 month old granddaughter from standing there with dream of grandeur thinking how cool and sweet this juice is fixing to be...lol...But, when the reality of only water hit her...She reacted!...I've though about this in several way's today....One is the simple funny way....Heading into this marriage with rose colored glasses and all the dreams of grandeur before I tasted it...Now all I can say is: I don't wike it!...But unlike the sippy cup I can't put it in the frig. and just walk away...But, in reality this little story has a much deeper truth for me....When God brings circumstance's into my life designed to grow me and mature me. Designed to teach me to die to this carnal mind and the sticking thinking it produces, So I can experience the mind of Christ and the peace that eventually comes with it....I can't help but initally cry out... I don't wike it!!!
unforgettable
Submitted by Standing on
Hey JJamieson:)
Submitted by c ur self on
(You gotta have it inside of you first....you have to know what it is exactly that you want and then say so. Not demand, manipulate, coheres or fall into tears so someone will come rescue you.....but say what you want, ask if that's possible and then give the other person a chance to do it for you if it's reasonable and get them to agree because they want to not because they have to.) I like this statement...
When I remember to put this into practice it really helps promote good communication with us...It's amazing how messed up a mind can get when fighting, power struggles, withdrawals etc...are present. I was so messed up in our early years, I would not do this, and If I did, I would wait until I was full of frustration and then it sounded like I was a wounded victim or it came off as a demand....As I've grown to see the reality of the relationship (distractions, different priorities, etc.) I've gotten more at peace with just kindly making my request....When dealing with my wife now the things that I feel she has forgotten about, I just kindly remind her. I can't do anything about her convictions to it, or the amount of importance she places on it...But, like J say's here, I can know what I am feeling, and kindly express it...Same goes for her.
JJ, you did it again.
Submitted by dedelight4 on
Thank you for such an eloquent, poignant post. It says SO MUCH. It's going to take a couple of reads so I can glean everything you said. Glad to have you posting again. Hugs. dede
I appreciate the feedback Thanks ( dedelight4)
Submitted by kellyj on
I know I spew a lot of stuff out in these posts but it also really helps me too. It forces me to put things into words ( ideas and thoughts ) which has proven to also force me to live up to my own words by doing so. I'm challenging myself as much as anything but it also good to know that it helps someone else too. It's a creative way for me to work on myself and I already know that creativity is one of the assets that comes with having ADHD.....looking on the positive side.
J
The Christian way. The
Submitted by c ur self on
The Christian way. The husband is the head of the home. This is truth you have written:)....But, just what does that mean? Do I speak of this God given right? or responsibility?...Do I usurp my perceived authority? Or do I humbly and prayerfully lead? I know I've abused my wife at (both of them) times. Wrongfully taking advantage of a role...I was to foolish and immature to understand or know how to honor.
Never give up on prayerfully and wisely fulfilling your role as his loving helper...
Happy early Birthday Liz
Good Point C UR Self
Submitted by kellyj on
And thanks for responding to my other posts too. Gender roles and our perception of them have so much to do with relationships and how they can be effected by an ADHD partner. I say this simply by observation looking at this forum for a start. Look at the disproportion of women to men in this forum alone. I also say this from my own experience.
I have a personal theory about this again.....based on my own observation. It appears that the pre-world war II (or there about) generation of parents come from a distinctly different mind set and way of thinking in terms of marriage, relationships, honor and duty compared to the next generation and beyond. No need for a history lesson to figure this one out here, but from my own perspective looking at the past.....I see myself as a late baby boomer right on the cusp of change. The messages I was getting from my parents in comparison to all the changes that I experienced outside of my own family became very confusing at times as far as gender roles and a "mans" place. There were so many mixed messages in light of the changes in equal rights and equality that it was hard to know what to believe or to try and pin anything down at times.
I think the concept of the man as head or leader of the household has been perverted from it's original form over time and is not as it was even 50 years ago let alone 100, 200 or back further than that.
Throwing ADHD into this mix becomes even more challenging to say the least. Being a leader means being someone you can rely on and put your faith and trust in. You want to know that the captain of the ship you're on isn't going to run you a ground while your asleep! That a lot of responsibility for anyone with or without ADHD. That also makes it sound more like your wife or partner is supposed to be in the galley cooking while the captain is at the helm steering the ship? I don't think this sounds like a partnership or recipe for a happy marriage......the captain and the second mate?
Speaking for myself....I've rejected this kind of thinking years ago but with that.....I have also placed an expectation that my wife or partner not play this role at the same time. That is to share in being the leader or head of the household in turn based somewhat of each persons strengths and abilities. My own experience with this has seen how quickly the old school value system can get flipped back into play when it suits the need and how quickly that can turn back around adopting a more contemporary world view.
Simply stated......it's bull shit. Piss or get off the pot! Sorry, but it's true.....and it works both ways.
All of this comes into play so much I think and gender roles and the concepts that are handed us from all sources can really screw things up.
Again, knowing what you want and what you believe in is crucial to moving forward no matter what anyone else tells you. It also makes it impossible for you to communicate this to another human being if you can't make a definitive statement about your own personal needs or desires and then stand behind them.
I say this as someone who has failed miserably at this in my past and is trying very hard not to let my past dictate my future.
J
Help from the "church"
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
C UR Self,
I am a Christian. I have been disappointed by the 'church' as have many others.
My relationship to Christ is based on what I can read in the bible, not what anyone TELLS me is in there.
Yep, my spouse and I both made promises to each other. I do not appreciate being in a place where I am always the source of someone's anger - I want to follow what I believe is the right way to go. Being admonished by my spouse because "no other man would put up with it." just turns me off. That right there is words trying to get me to fit into someone else's mold by trying to make me feel I do not measure up to someone else. It doesn't work on me. Don't have the need to qualify who I am by anyone else's standards.. I am quite at peace in my own skin, thank you. I have done lots of work on who I am, what I believe, what I want, where I want to go. I see no other options than 1. Put up with it. 2. Walk away from it. 3. Explain that I shall walk away each and every time I talked to with disdain and disrespect. And that leaves me alone a whole, whole lot. In a messy yard. With lots of housework to do. And a whole lot of trying to rob Peter to pay Paul when there ain't enough money to go around. I do not like it.
I am honestly sick of trying. I feel as I have wasted years of my life trying to make this marriage work. I really have not had any time to enjoy it. I have working to keep my spouse happy. And when I stopped that, it also backfired as he got sadder and more distant. As soon as I put up a boundary, he rebelled, and is rebelling all the more. At this point, I just do not like him very much. Who would want to be married to a man or a women they do not like very much. There is a limit to trying my patience. It ended a few months ago. I do not want to live in a situation where what ever he wants/sees/does goes. Whether I like it or not. He just really believes he is right. Do not know how to get around that. Or even if I should.
I'mSoExhausted: Help from the Church
Submitted by dedelight4 on
"I am a Christian. I have been disappointed by the 'church' as have many others."
Yes. same here. same statements. In my first marriage, where my ex-husband was physically and sexually abusing me, the pastor of our church admonished ME, and told me "Just don't do the things that get him upset"....and..."A soft answer turneth away wrath". This was his advice to a woman who was being hit, punched, slapped, screamed at, etc. and a host of other things. Nothing was said to my ex. We started going to another church, same denomination, and THAT pastor wanted to put me in a psychiatric ward. At that point, my parents stepped in and helped me get out of that horribly abusive marriage.
Before I married my current husband, I made a strict vow to myself to NEVER, EVER go to a minister again for marital advice. I broke that vow and went to the minister who married us, (different denomination) trying to get help when my husband was having his affair. My husband lied about it to the pastor and to me while sitting in the office, so the pastor focused on me. Yes, I have an abusive past, but this was after much counseling to deal with those issues, and THAT wasn't what was causing my husband's affair anyway. It was again, blame the one who is crying and upset.
I've spent my entire life in church, and especially as a pianist, organist, I LOVE serving God in this capacity. But, I actually LOVE being in church. When my current husband and I were first married (he was raised Catholic, I was raised pentecostal.....funny match) we were looking for a church we both felt we should be at. We started attending different churches, 3 churches right in a row SPLIT after we started attending after a few months. It was sort of freaky. They were all large churches and we didn't know anyone, but it was still a weird thing to happen.
The ones we DID get involved with and stayed the longest, were like you said, Exhausted.................we got tired of the "conformist" attitudes. If we didn't act, look like, surrender to their authority, and such, we weren't being a "good Christian". It was pretty stressful.
I want to go back to church, but I'm sort of freaked out about doing that. I don't want any pressure on me or have anyone JUMP on me the minute I walk in the door. But, neither do I want a dead, cold church where no one cares about you or anyone else. Believe me, I've been to them ALL. Being a church organist, who freelanced for over 30 years, I've played at almost every denomination there is. And for a few of them, I was there for some periods of time. Catholic, Episcopalian, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist, United Methodist, Baptist, Assemblies of God, Pentecostal, Seventh Day Adventist, A Jewish Temple, Non-Denominational, and others that I've long forgotten. Those are just the ones I can remember. But, I DID find out I could worship God in ANY OF THEM. That was the really cool thing about it.
Anyway, I totally feel where you are at, and understand every aspect. Hugs to you.
"We are the Church"
Submitted by c ur self on
In my own personal life, I have experienced so many of the emotions you both have documented here...But, as God through Christ has shown me mercy, I have come to realize his love for me. He has had to destroy my carnal thinking about religion, about expectations being placed on anyone but him. I try to just depend on his word, and rest in it...Keep my thinking out of it...Because his way's are not my way's and they are past my finding out. Isaiah 55:8,9....So, like Paul told the Roman's...The just shall live by faith. Romans 1:17
The ground is level at the foot of the cross...God is no respect of person....
My Dad endured 64 years of "marriage"
Submitted by Standing on
with the same outlook.
He was a bigger man than I.
I think you are a lot like him:)
Submitted by c ur self on
I've been impressed by your willingness to be self aware...I think you are wiser than you know....
Thanks, c ur self
Submitted by Standing on
That gave me a good cry. Needed it.
Still together? And boundary setting idea-feedback
Submitted by momma of four on
I'm So Exhausted,
I am curious, did you seperate? I am a Christian too - so much pressure on us women to 'do the right thing' and remain in a marriage that is dysfunctional and often abusive and really ludicrous b/c we are Christians!
Anyway, I would like some feedback.
Found out one month ago that my DH who has ADD regularly was driving our 4 kids around while going on Facebook on his phone. I confronted him - he blew up and went to church. Later that day I told him (as I had been planning for a week) that he had one year - or that was it. Seperation or divorce. That was mid December. He used some spiritual abuse stuff and got mad, but I have since seperated our finances, finally.
We have had the usual incredible, ridiculous chaos I have read from so many - job loss, finance craziness, blame, denial etc.
So, I brought up the Facebook while driving again today. Asked how long he had been doing this. He said for the past 3 years when alone and for about 6 months prior to me finding out in mid-December. I was shocked. He said 'well, I haven't had any accidents'. I asked him if he had been on the internet on his phone while driving since I found out. He said yes, but not with the kids.
He is unsafe even when not on the internet while driving. He is a terrible driver - gets tickets frequently for speeding, has had his liscence revoked, puts on the cruise control b/c he tends to forget what speed to go (then either leaves it on through tiny town going to fast or forgets to reset to a higher speed after exiting the tiny town). My family fears his driving. He has hit at least two friends - one was in a parking lot at church with folks watching him back up without looking. I have been in the car with him when he backed up without looking more than once. Our pastors have actually observed him swerve about on the highway and then were almost run off the road by him when they tried to pass him - and they said he wasn't on the internet at the time. He gets lost regularly, even when going to my parents, who we have visited hundreds of times. Yes, this is just ADHD. Normal, right?
So, new boundary - we are on the edge of a separation anyway. I imagine this just takes me one step closer to this reality.
I am thinking I need to say that he is no longer allowed to drive the kids at all. Sounds stupid after I just wrote everything down! Why do I put up with so much and let him say 'it is just you'! Why have I bought into him saying this behavior is acceptable? That his driving is safe?! If I am with him I drive or if I am SO tired I have him but I cannot possibly sleep or relax b/c he swerves so much. It truly is a miracle he has not crashed. He has fallen asleep at the wheel before too b/c he chooses lack of sleep as a lifestyle and then I imagine once the meds wear off, driving becomes so boring. Maybe going on the internet while driving is a good idea! Then he doesn't fall asleep! HA! Just kidding. I think that was his logic coming out!
SO, I have four kids who go to private Christian schools - which my parents pay for - so there is no school bus to deliver them to and fro - fortunately I have one friend here (we moved here only 6 months b/c I got a great job - PTL) who I carpool with.
My husband will not be happy with this idea. He will be very angry. How do I do this? I imagine if I plan to separate anyway, that I will need to do ALL the driving - honestly, I am pretty close to doing it all anyway right now. I drive them to school and pick them up - my husband drives sometimes to things on the weekend. I think this will just get me more prepared and if he flips out about this new boundary, it will give me more evidence of his denial of what is really appropriate adult behavior and driving skills. I have a 15 and 13 year old - how does a 53 year old man justify this behavior to them? Should he teach them to drive?
I was already thinking that when I separate that I would not want/allow him to drive the kids when he had them for visitation. Why would I let him drive the kids now then?! I thought if we went to court that I tell them his driving issue so he would not be allowed to drive them during his visits - why then and not now? I have no more control now when he is gone with the kids. Crazy - new territory. I guess good Christian wives just submit and listen to their husbands demands and logic regardless of what it is! Even if it endangers them and the kids! What foolishness!
Enough. I know what I have to do. ARGH. More confrontation, but this is what I want over - tolerating insanity and foolishness.
Thanks for listening.
Your husband's behavior is
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
Your husband's behavior is frightening, Momma of Four, but I understand your concern about putting an end to your husband driving your children. My husband doesn't use his phone while driving but he does do certain things while in the car that worry me. But he's very into the macho aspects of being behind the wheel. Our children are grown so the issue of having them at risk from their father's driving rarely arises. But when my husband and I are together, I usually insist on driving.
Hi Momma of four :)
Submitted by c ur self on
I've read your post a couple of times...Some of your comments concern me for you...One, your husband needs some mature Christian Counseling...He needs some accountability partner's to speak truth to him about his lack of responsible behavior toward you and the kids...If you have a good job, and your parents are paying for the private school...What does he do?
No where in scripture does it say you are suppose to accept being abused...A marriage is suppose to mirror Christ and the Church. I hope you will find a qualified counselor for you and your husband to set down with. If anger and emotions are a problem for either of you write down all things that should be confronted.
I'm not an advocate for divorce, but, I do believe in accountability, and some times when poor, abusive and reckless behaviors are read out loud in front of a third party, we seem to hear a little bit better...Also, if it continues, a separation can open some eyes....
Blessing Mof4....
"Maybe I am too affected by
Submitted by Standing on
"Maybe I am too affected by the unpleasantry that happened this afternoon."
I think so. Difficult not to be! But necessary. I know that my husband "places", in his own mind, thoughts into my heads and emotions into my heart. I expect that. I know that subtleties blow straight past him and are lost in the mists. So I am practicing exaggerating my own unaffectedness, my own "good-naturedness", and that is less of a strain the more I act it out.
It's amazing how flexible human beings (without add) can be. That scenario you describe about the fence - I live that daily, because I work and live with my husband. I thought it would render me a lunatic, until suddenly ... it's bouncing off me now (for the most part), instead of penetrating my soul. I KNOW that he does not mean it. I know that he does not intend to harm me. I know that in my knower and so I no longer need him to see the deep impact his nonsense has on me... I need only to control my portion of the explosion and let the shrapnel miss its mark. It's not easy, but it's simple, really. He cannot help it. I can.
On Edit - and Happy Birthday!! I am reading and houseworking, off and on, and just got to that part :)