Submitted by s00manyquestions on 03/28/2015.
Hey all. Check this out. I found it interesting and made sense to me and my previous decisions and actions as an adolescent and adult!! (ps. I was in the National Guard and deployed for a yr in 09.) and (there was a major devistating lost of our son last year) and (I just took that massive 'head' test and my doc was extremely shocked how low...wayyy lower than average my PTSD level was.) With all the mentioned and ugly childhood.
It'll make sense once you read it. I hope it might give some insight into your lives..
http://adhd-treatment-options.blogspot.com/2009/12/adhd-subtype-differen...
Cortisol Levels
Submitted by ADHDMomof2 on
First and foremost, I am so sorry to hear of the loss of your son. I hope you find peace.
Secondly, I haven't read the article yet, but I take adrenal support. It helps me fall asleep at night and get up in the morning. Those are major problems for some of us with ADHD, so even without having read the article, that part makes sense (I just processed that as I was writing it).
Thank you.
Submitted by s00manyquestions on
Thank you.
and yeaahh..that sleep thing... My (our) arche Nemesis! if tried soo many sleeping pills and tolerance, then switched etc...I Might get a night off of it for 1 night...or in order for it to work...I'd have to take them like can't. All night every 2/3 hours and have to take 3x prescribed. For some reason, I dont think thats a good thing. Tried over 4/5/6 who knows...of sleeping aids. Pills...Synthetici...Natural.....All of that OHHhh! and the day after ... SUCKS...so badly. draggs on for evver. The first time I took Adderrall, for the first time: I was able to sleep throughout the night!...it was awsome. Notice how I say "was"..now: the past..ahh..3/ going /4th night. last 3 nights sucked for sleeping. Totalling have it backwards. Night is day...day is night. blah blahh You know.
SO. Adrenal Support. How does that all work? Support..?
BTW: I just read what I had just written and had no idea of how strangely or maybe my typing sounded and or looked. Id say: Very jaggy...jigitiee~~ I have now idea but sounded fun.
Adrenal support/Adaptogens
Submitted by ADHDMomof2 on
The one I take is called Restorative Formulations (brand) and the supplement (it's not a prescription) is called Adaptogen Adrenal Support. An adaptogen is something in nature which acts as a catalyst to a process which your body is not doing well. Eventually, the theory is that your body will take over the process and won't actually need it anymore. In other words, your body would adapt and change from taking this supplement. If you read the ingredients, you will notice they are different types of roots, herbs and even bark! A few years ago, I would have thought this is CRAZY. However, I trust and respect my Naturopathic Doctor and know from experience that there is a science behind what she does. If you think about it, the plant Foxglove (Digatalis) is also a heart medication, morphine is comes from the poppy seed, and so on... Not everything she has done has worked, but for me, the effect is amazing.
Adaptogens -- info on what they do
Submitted by AlmaVera on
I was looking up the Adaptogen Adrenal Support, and this article came up in the Google search results.
Adaptogenic Herbs In Adrenal Fatigue
I'm not commenting on the writer's viewpoint on whether they work in certain stages of adrenal fatigue, but the descriptions of a couple herbs caught my eye (emphasis mine):
"Ashwaganda – sometimes referred to as Indian ginseng, the herb provides a range of effects that are largely comparable to Siberian ginseng, although the plants are not in any way related. Ashwaganda contains withanolides, phytosterols and alkaloids which Ayurvedic practioners have used for centuries to help patients resist stress and related symptoms. The herb is noted for it's ability to balance out adrenal and thyroid problems and has been used to address hypofunction at both of these energy-producing glands.
Rhodiola Rosea – typically identified as an ideal herb to enhance both physical and mental resistance to stress. As well as providing adaptogenic effects at the adrenal glands, rhodiola can block the depletion of norardrenaline and dopamine that typically occurs in stressful situations. Healthier levels of these two catecholamines are related to better mental performance, energy and mood."
As J mentioned in his recent post, there is a connection between the adrenals and the thyroid, in fact my pcp (who is a nurse practitioner, but she really knows her stuff) talked to me at my last appointment about the connection between the thyroid, pituitary, and the adrenals, and how it is no longer enough to just look at one gland's function in isolation. If information like this and attitudes like hers become more the norm, it will be easier for all of us to find practitioners who will look at alternatives beyond Adderall, Ritalin, et al, for ADHD. Or who will, at least, not brush us off when we bring them up, lol.
About Sleep
Submitted by kellyj on
and no, your OK...your typing too. I'm with you on this much.....if I don't proof read or go back and edit ..half the time I read my stuff and go....wow. How did i make it through school? lol
If you read what I said to ADHDMomof2...and after reading what you were saying. It seems we all have very different sleep patterns. The only times I do stay up and find it difficult to sleep is when I'm really troubled or take my Adderall too late in the day...but only sometimes. Sometimes I can take my Adderall at 7 or 8 pm and still fall right to sleep 2 hours later?? I've never asked anyone about this or compared myself to anyone else with ADHD but I have always thought this aspect of my ability to sleep to be kind of strange? Like I said to ADHDMomof2....this could be related to the Cortisol?
And thanks again for the link...it really did help explain things for me.
J
Abolutley it had to
Submitted by s00manyquestions on
Abolutley it had to contribute. I lay for hours and hours trying to sleep tossing and turning rotating rearranging ...noe wairing..bathroom. water...hey sweet kitten. fridge..chees? Yup, I'm starving and really should be eating more...apepite completely gone and too busy. And there is more. above continue hours...and since I can't 'shut my thoughts with out 'conscience' effort..its gonna be hours. typically. For me..I'm typincally thinking about nothing but wandering thoughts are stupid and pointless. I mean...I don't lay there trying to find the meaning of life and being sad about people, the world and overall thoughts of ideal living...(my way-of course) Ok. Sometimes i do..but something meaningful. Anyways..Now adays...I've been just trying to freak'en keep standing and moving THAT way (forward) instead of stay here (uninvited - weird) or Go...Go..THERE.
Whooahh!!! Hey Nelly there!! Talking to me- realizing i'm going on a journey of my own...that I happeded to say outloud. What I'm say: If something that has ben done, is now, tomorrow or the future..maybe ALL...I lay there. In the quite of the night accompanied by by my own thoughts....My mind can DEF find something to elaborate on. Especially now a day. Thinking and Thinking and thinking. sometimes I think of it as : getting lost in the world of 'ifs' ... you go in with you inner questions and come out nother but more questions to ponder and 'figure'
BEASDHHJJkkk
Answer: Yes
Adrenal support?
Submitted by c ur self on
My poor wife takes her adderall to make it....but, when she come home from work at 11:30...She's wired...until 3 or 4 am....She takes melatonin, she say's helps a little....I'll have to mention this Adrenal support to her...She may not know about it....
I'm taking Adderal. Maybe
Submitted by s00manyquestions on
I'm taking Adderal. Maybe the Xr extended would be better for her??? ..Don't know but I know it maintains 'you' half the dose after you take it then the other half is released. I REALLY didn't like it, who knows. Or I know my doc told me take take my second dose of Adderall NO later than 3. To ensure that by the time its time to sleep...i give myself a fair chance. I take it a step further and start doing 1/4s to really slow it down and 'extend the duration yet allowing my body to slowly slow down vs a total sudden reboot...of Shut down...I suppose.
Do you know her regemin? I'm also on a coctail of other things so...there are a lot of variables. One MAJOR one being: I'm not a doc. hehe. For me: some that can cover a wide range of things: from Bi Polar to Major Depressive which are both supposed part of my fun ride! And Anxiety. and yes. ADHD. I'm gonna put the brakes on the next time I go in though. I'm temp seeing a different doc..and he def had a different approach than who I like. I would like to start with the idea: less is more than adjust rather than: give her EVERYthing then slowly take it away from her. ... now... as monkey labs...watch and observe. 'ohh..yes...DEF added aggression and outburst...or ...this is too much..she took a nap right after waking up!
AHksfj yup. I need to close my eyes. It's that time..super tired and 5 hrs til the adventures being.
Hope all is sleeping well / slept well and the day is splendid.
Wife...
Submitted by c ur self on
I really don't know how she takes her meds...I don't think she really knows, much of the time....If she is swimming and getting enough rest 1 adderall when she wakes up usually does it for her...But, if she quits going to the pool which is hit or miss more miss than hit....And starts staying up late etc...She tells me she has to go to 1 and 1/2 pills...I've encourage her take supplements' like Fish oil etc...and she will, but when she fills up her little 7 day a week holder, it will set there:( pills on counter I sweep them up etc....I've asked her why don't see take her supplements everyday, and she says' she has a regiment where she skips days and stuff....I think she forgets :)....We're get along so much better when I mind my own business (hard for this husband) but, the peace it brings to us well worth this old dog learning a new trick, plus it forces her to be accountable when I don't make myself a target....I woke up to p at 5:10 AM this morning and she was at the table doing taxes...She had found a reason why she could not claim our Son's school money (because she was married filing separate) So she told me she was going to have to ask him to re-file to claim the credits...Same thing two years ago when we were separated....Tried to get me to re-file...I told her No No....She so wanted to ask me this morning to re-file...She asked me what I was paying or getting back....I told her...and to her credit she didn't ask me to:)...LOL...None of this would being happening if she would just listen to me....I never have this drama....Praise the Lord...She's my girl though, I just hate she puts herself through needless stress...We've both come a long way...PTL!
Hope ur sleeping well....and get a lot done today.....
Hi ADHDMomof2
Submitted by kellyj on
This might possibly be the answer to what you said I think? ... "Those are major problems for some of us with ADHD.." It's so weird that this gets reported and yet...I am the extreme opposite. I've been blessed with the ability to fall asleep at the drop of hat when this is a good thing. Growing up however.....I had to watch it. I could literally dose off anywhere...bus, car , train, at my desk in school. To this day.....if I close my eyes I can fall asleep. I thought I might have Narcolepsy it was so bad at times ( saying more in jest) but this article about Cortisol might be a much better explanation? I'm now wondering....??? I'm not up on this topic so I can't really speak to how Cortisol levels relate to sleep but I will be checking this out to see how this all works together.
J
Holy Cow!! BINGO !
Submitted by kellyj on
First...I too echo my sentiments about your son....I can't imagine ...but to say only, I am sorry.
And to this article I have to say wow....this explains a lot and I would have to concur with everything in it's findings as it relates to me......this is me all over the place but more specifically...the early ear infections as a child. I had chronic ear infections up until I was 5 or 6. They removed my tonsils at age 4 and I was at the ear nose and throat Doc more times than I can remember. My earliest memory saying...the first and oldest memory I have in this world (my mother said I had to be 2 or less ) is a somewhat surreal image of seeing the room I was in and screaming in pain. This is only the second time I've heard mention of this and before the first didn't explain why this is possibly related. But I am everything that this blog reported for ADHD/hyperactive sub type to the letter. Exactly !
"childhood ear infections (which might seem counterintuitive, given that we would expect ear infections to promote hearing loss and compromise the attention side of the disorder more than the hyperactive-impulsive components). However, evidence for the biological differences of ADHD subtypes often goes well beyond earlier exposures to diseases and external stressors."
CHECK
"...while the hyperactive-impulsive kids are associated with being rail-thin fidgety and bouncing off the walls."
CHECK
"As an interesting side note, this blunted HPA activity subsequent "dulling" of the fight-or-flight response among the ADHD population may, in part, explain the high percentage of ADHD'ers in stressful occupations such as firefighters, EMT's, ER physicians, and combat personnel and the like. In other words, due to the reduced HPA response among most of the ADHD population, ADHD'ers are less likely to be overwhelmed in stressful situations, and may actually be at an advantage in occupations such as these. Remember, ADHD can have its advantages!"
CHECK. CHECK, CHECK. CHECK,CHECK.CHECK !!!
"boys with ADHD, the presence of a comorbid anxiety disorder was likely to raise the cortisol levels in response to stress for the child, but the presence of an oppositional or disruptive behavioral comorbid disorder showed a tendency to lower the cortisol response to stress in the ADHD child. "
me being the latter....not in the "disorder" level but in the ball park for sure.
CHECK
"it was the hyperactive-impulsive children who showed more of a blunted cortisol response to stressors, so these observations from research groups in three different countries all seem to be reaching similar conclusions. "
Add one more to the study in all regards
CHECK
"There is growing evidence that the three traditional subtypes of ADHD (Inattentive ADHD, Hyperactive-Impulsive ADHD and the Combined ADHD subtype) may in fact, be more accurately classified as separate disorders altogether. Although the ADHD sub typing method is still likely to persist, new biochemical studies have begun to shine light on some of the physiological differences associated with the three distinct ADHD subtypes. "
If there ever a case where my own intuition and feelings before reading this blog were confirmed.... this statement (and blog itself) is it. I couldn't fit this better if it had been written specially about me. How cool is that? I say this because it is always helpful to know and understand the simple question as to "why"?
Thanks for this......you made my day!
J
Cortisol testing?
Submitted by AlmaVera on
Has anyone ever had their cortisol tested? Years ago, I stumbled across a congenital disorder that caused the body to produce too little cortisol, and thought "this is me!" My endocrinologist did one of those 24-hour cortisol tests, and it came back normal (never saw numbers, so I don't know what the 'normal' range is), and that really puzzled me.
The form of this adrenal thing that fit me mainly shows up around puberty (which was really early for me), which is also when I remember symptoms that coincide with ADHD started getting worse. I haven't had an official diagnosis, but looking at standard symptoms of the different sub-types in women, I am not primarily inattentive, but more combined. So, if I'm reading the article correctly, that also correlates with lower cortisol levels. Buuuuut, if I'm reading this right, co-morbid anxiety (which is often present in the combined sub-type) can raise cortisol. So, I wonder if anxiety could bump up the cortisol enough that it would make my levels look 'normal' on the test. I had the test done during a time of upheaval in my life (end of my marriage), so of course stress would be high.
As for being in a career that deals with a lot of stress...um, no, lol. However, in my personal life, there have definitely been times of great stress where I had so many balls in the air that I kind of look back at it now with awe.
On top of trying to figure out treatment for ADHD-related symptoms, I'm also trying to find things to help my brain while it's recovering from a mild TBI. I am having to do a lot of investigation on my own, as I was not diagnosed correctly in the beginning and then wasn't given any information about what to expect as I recovered. I'm finding out that the TBI might affect how my brain utilizes ADHD meds, so I have to be careful.
A really odd thing has happened lately, too -- for years, I took Adderall XR. Before the head injury, I had realized that I had lost all motivation and interest in hobbies, etc., which I used to do a lot. Then I had my injury. Now I'm trying to adjust the Adderall again, while also having huge mental fatigue post-concussion (something I wasn't prepared for). Add in increasing sleep problems over the last few months. So, less than 2 weeks ago, my pdoc and I started an experiment. I am taking the same amount of Adderall, but at 8 a.m., noon, and 4 p.m. We didn't want to risk it causing further sleep problems. At the same time, I cut my Ambien CR in 1/2 and would take 1/2 at bedtime, and the rest if I woke up at 1 or 2 a.m. I had been waking each night at 1 or 2 and again at 4 or 5. After a few days of the new system, I am no longer waking at 1 or 2. I still wake at 4 or 5, but I don't take any additional med, or I fear I won't wake up at 7 for work.
So, I'm taking my stimulant later in the day, taking 1/2 my dose of Ambien, and waking less at night. This was a totally surprising result! I'm still more 'blah' than I'd like in the evening, so I might try taking either a slightly higher dose or take my last one a little bit later, like at 4:30 or 5. The fatigue is part of the head injury, so meds won't affect that. Though if I can get back into doing things I like, that will probably help my mood, which will probably help my body heal faster, too, I'd suspect.
I'm very interested in taking any supplements or vitamins that might help, too, so I will look at the Adrenal Support.
This is all very interesting. Thank you for the great discussion. :)
AV
AV, I'm Curious
Submitted by kellyj on
You mentioned after you were on Adderall you lost interest in hobbies and activities. I had this happen too which was also connected to a few other changes as well. I'm curious about your thoughts on this as I have my own about this but I wanted to hear another person's experience first before I interjected my own. Thx.
One more thing to add into this discussion which reminded me of testing for other things. My oldest sister was tested for metabolism in relation to a Thyroid deficiency that she has had most of her life. My mother too developed Graves's disorder when she was in her 70's and had to have her's removed. When my sister had her metabolism tested, the Dr. told her that she had a very high efficiency level in her bodies metabolism saying to her ," if you were ship wrecked on an island with a group of people and the food was running out...you would probably be the last one to be alive out of the group with what food you had to live on." I found this really interesting since I can remember since the youngest of age...skipping meals and be a very light eater in general ( not big portions ).To this day...I can go all day without eating and I appear to be just fine ( a life long pattern ). Not that this is a good way to stay healthy but....it appears that my blood sugar levels remain very constant despite going for prolonged periods of time without food. Not a big snacker either? Without being tested based on my family connection with my sister and the comment by the Doctor...I'm thinking that I might be the same as her having a highly efficient metabolism? This all could have nothing to do with ADHD or anything related but I'm now wondering more and more if there could be any connection ie: Thyroid, Cortisol, Metabolic Rate and ADHD? And if so...what could this mean? Might this change a person's strategy to improve ADHD symptoms either positively or negatively?
J
Adderall and hobbies
Submitted by AlmaVera on
Well, my pdoc originally gave me Adderall because of trouble I was having with concentration, memory, etc., during a time of super stress in my life. Looking at it now with all I'm reading about ADHD, esp how it often shows up in women, I was exhibiting some pretty classic symptoms for it, but my doctor has never suggested it. So, it's just in learning about it on my own now that I'm putting together all kinds of things that have gone on since I was a kid and saying, "Whooooa, now it all makes sense!" :p
Anywhoo, I have long been one of those classic creative-into-all-kinds-of-hobbies-and-DIY-things person. Would always be working on some kind of craft or project after working all day at my job, then coming home and making dinner. Stayed up too late, too. When I started taking the Adderall, I was so scattered that I would only remember to take the 1st of the 3 tablets the doctor would give me. Eventually, he put me on the XR to take care of that problem. I was doing better at work as far as concentration was concerned, but after a while, I noticed that all I did in the evenings was sit on the computer. I had had a small online business on etsy that I had to put on hold after I moved out on my own due to living in a small rental, dealing with a divorce, changing schedules with my son, etc., and I had thought that was the main reason I'd lost interest. But when I got into my own house and life had settled down a lot, I still had no motivation for that...or anything else. I haven't gotten it back since. It finally dawned on me that it started around the time I switched to the XR.
My pdoc said that made no sense to him since Adderall is a stimulant, but I have heard other people say that ADHD meds affected them the same way, some to the point where they chose to stop medication altogether just to have a life they enjoyed to some extent. I have wondered if my body got used to the Adderall's effects, and then at the end of the day, it would be gone and there would be nothing left. Without meds, I'd be bouncing from thing to thing (loved cooking and making new recipes for my H and son when I was married, trying new crafts and hobbies. which turned into a small business) and that kept the dopamine flowing from morning til night. Now, the med does it, but on a more 8-4 schedule. Between the time the last of the XR would be gone and bedtime, I was just a blah zombie. Does that make sense?
That's why I wondered if taking the regular Adderall IR and stretching it later in the day might help me carry some of that energy into the evening. I did get a fair bit of house cleaning done this weekend (for the first time in way too long, I'm embarrassed to say), and I wasn't quite as dead on my feet by the end of the workdays last week. :) Unfortunately, today, I'm totally exhausted. That seems to be the TBI part of things. :(
I also have hypothyroidism, but that showed up after I had my son. I had to have it bumped up this fall for the first time in a few years. It didn't seem to help my thinking or memory, though it did rule that out as a cause of the problem. The endocrinologist I went to for the cortisol test is really traditional, and didn't even want to bump my thyroid the last time I asked because my numbers didn't show that i needed it, even though i had all the symptoms. My pcp took one look at me this fall, and said "Yup, let's bump you up." :) So, I might try to look for another endo and see if he or she might be willing to look at the cortisol again.
J -- I'm interested to hear your ideas on why the Adderall made you lose interest in things.
AV
Thanks for Sharing This AV
Submitted by kellyj on
You and I share this in common. . "I have long been one of those classic creative-into-all-kinds-of-hobbies-and-DIY-things person. Would always be working on some kind of craft or project after working all day at my job."
side note: this is where connection with spouses can be problematic for me...a problem area unless the person I'm with is not (more or less) like this too.
Anyway...jack of all trades, creative, productive etc... have all been used to describe me. Yes. Even when I was very little I used to draw all the time. I refused coloring books (no way...that's just coloring in someone else's picture!) and insisted on using a #2 pencil and notebook paper. My mother finally started to buy me 500 ream packs of typing paper at a time instead of spiral note books because I would go through them so fast.
Growing up even when I was again...pretty young...I climbed everything. Tree's, our house ( onto the roof ), towers,buildings, walls, fences, ropes, poles. Everything. Then later on when I learned to swim I loved to dive off things....as high as I could go. Off the roof into my good friends family pool, motel balconies, high diving boards, diving platforms, off rocks into lakes and rivers and then later.... even off bridges ( into the river through our city and almost got arrested but released with a warning) that was fun...at the time! Anyway....I could go on and on with this but even the short list of activities I've done throughout my life include: skydiving, scuba diving, motorcycling (dirt and road). sailing, water skiing, snow skiing, mountain climbing, drag racing, horse back riding, backpacking, skeet shooting and target practice,jumping my bicycle, jumping my motorcycle,ski jumping ( not the Olympic kind ) jumping off the roof at my house,jumping out of a 3rd story window in the middle of a class in college on a bet ( that was interesting...at the time $200 seemed like it was worth it ha ha) and off course the diving that I already mentioned.
So not to belabor the point here if this isn't already pretty obvious is that I definitely sought out and pursued stimulating activities. And if there wasn't any around....I made them up and did them anyway. This does appear to be a pattern don't you think? And, knock on wood.....I've never broken any bones except for my toe which I did from kicking a piece of wood I was working on for a project. lol
But still on top of these things.....I was also like you with creative hobbies like drawing, art, painting, sculpture, construction etc too.....so to tie this all together....When I started taking my Adderall....I did notice that my interest in things changed. Not as much with the creative stuff that I just mentioned but I do some of this for a living so I consider this work even though I used to do these things after work to....just different ones. I noticed that my need or wanting to do these things after work disappeared somewhat or they just didn't seem to grab me as much as they used to. Not as stimulating. And again.....the reason I have so many adventurous and intense ( or maybe risky ) activities in my list was that I was always looking for a new one when I was growing up. A new stimulating activity. This disappeared as well even though I am older now and don't do these things as much as I use to...some I stopped doing years ago but I was never without at least a couple that I maintained.
I don't feel the urge or need to do these much any more even though I still enjoy doing at least one thing like this once in a while since I already know how to do it and I have friends who will invite me for a yearly adventure along these lines. That's usually enough now and it has more to do with being out with my old friends than the need for stimulation.
What I'm really surprised at was your pdoc's comment .."that made no sense to him since Adderall is a stimulant." That's the point! It isn't supposed to stimulate you if you have ADHD.....it's suppose to replace the "need" or "urge" to find outside stimulation to compensate for the brain level activities that are lower than normal for everyone else. In fact....my nurse practitioner who first prescribed the Adderall to me and helped explain this to me asked me a series of questions in our first meeting and one of them was if I had done any drugs at any time in my life and if so.....which one would you say made you feel the best....not high, but just good. I told her I had experimented with some drugs in my past and had done some cocaine when I was younger on occasion with friends but I wasn't very interested in it saying...." I guess I would have to say..... I tried speed a couple of times in high school and then the cocaine but I never thought much of it....it felt good but it wasn't that big a deal to me." She basically said I had passed one of the first tests as far as this answer goes. She said that she tried speed in college once to study and she was bouncing off the walls... I joked with her saying..."Gee...I've been like that all my life!" and she said...."exactly."
This was the reason I asked you this because I wanted to see if this played out in a similar way. It seemed really obvious to me that I lost the urge or desire to do the most stimulating activities much anymore ie; the high risk danger ones....and with the other's it seems that I lost the motivation to do them as much or they qualitatively changed in the reward I got from doing them. It seems that's where the real change is coming from. Not having the "need" and to satisfying that to now....more things of interest and wanting to do them for a different reason? I do know the feeling when you are suddenly going....something wrong here? What's wrong with me...I don't seem to be motivated like I used to. But to me it seems pretty obvious that the motivation before was to get that "peak" high from the stimulation itself and that does seem to feel like a loss of that reward you get from doing things for that reason. It is a loss because that in itself was one of the good parts about being this way. It definitely is a high.
I might also mention sex too.....there was the same component to sex as a means to stimulate me in the same way as the other things I mentioned and without that high or peak intensity....the interest at first seemed to disappear for a while until I figured this out. I'm still not as sexually motivated as I was before...but again, I'm 57 and I think that is somewhat normal some men? This includes the amount or number of times I would masturbate too without getting too far into that subject. Not that it was problematic but more getting a little uncomfortable and being modest.
Anyway....if I look at everything together I really noticed this shift across the board but my thinking now is that this is somewhat normal and what is supposed to happen if you think about it. It has taken me some time to adjust and relearn being this way and it definitely feels funny or at least very different at times and I have to keep reminding myself that you can't selectively choose all the interrelated consequences when you make a major change in your brains chemistry.....the good and the different. For me there is no real "bad" aside from having to adjust how I think and having to make changes when I think of all the immediate good things it has done as far as my ability to stay focused and reduce the amount or need to hyper focus and be so intense to get my new "fix" of stimulation anymore. There is a loss of that peak high but I don't miss feeling or "pull" to get my "fix". It definitely had an addictive quality to it that I did not like since I am in most other ways...not an addictive person....I've never enjoyed gambling, doing lots of drugs or getting hooked on anything for very long. I've always seemed to get bored with too much of anything and lost interest or would get saturated after a while before no matter what I did. Now....I've lost some interest in things because the need to be stimulated is gone but it does seem that the negative side of this as I mentioned really is more of a change but also an opportunity to do things more out a wanting to than a needing to which in itself feels kind of strange or weird. Once I realized what was happening I found that it's now just getting used to the difference and finding new motivations to replace the old ones. I can totally see why a person would feel the loss or not liking this difference with the old activities and the "high" from doing it. I cannot say that it was neither fun or exciting and the reward from doing those things was very intense. I loved every minute of it! Thinking... especially when I was younger. I think if I was in my twenties again and did this I would be totally bummed and not like this at all. I would have probably gone off it too in light of all the things that I use to do and how much I did enjoy doing them at the time. In other words....I got that all out of my system enough to enjoy the good memories and feel that I did it without regret.
The one thing that my therapist told me long ago that I really like and feel myself is so true about taking any medication or drugs is....that there is no such thing as a side effect. Side effects are what doctors or pharmaceutical companies call all the things that any drug does to you that aren't what they are prescribing or marketing it to do yet.....when you take any drug it does everything it does to you and you don't get to pick and choose the parts you like and the parts you don't like the way drug companies do when they market it to us. I love this and there is no arguing against it. It really helps to broaden your ability to see everything these drugs do to you instead of looking at them from six inched in front of your face....if that makes sense?
J
This does make a lot of sense
Submitted by AlmaVera on
This does make a lot of sense. It also confirms what I was thinking in terms of trying to find a new pdoc. As I posted before in the Diagnosis and Treatment sub-forum, he is totally a 'pill guy,' and doesn't believe in things like vitamins or supplements to help with symptoms. As I seem to be more med-sensitive since my concussion, that is a route I want to explore. I also want someone who seems to actually know something about adult ADHD. May be tough to find here, but I'll start looking.
Your explanation also deepens my conundrum. I was not what anyone would describe as a risk-taker or a thrill-seeker growing up -- quite the opposite. I was the proverbial straight-A goody-two-shoes perfectionist, raised in a very strict Catholic home in a rural area with a mom who had undiagnosed (but very obvious to me now) mental illness, no extended family around and pretty isolated from friends except during school. That had a huge affect on who I turned out to be (and also probably provided enough structure to cover my symptoms). I had a scholarship to a good engineering school and moved away from home, where I blossomed socially, but had a hard time in school. (I now know why). When my parents split during my freshman year, I had to quit and go home to take care of my mom and little brother. That started a very dysfunctional life that lasted into my early 30s. I think the very tight structure helped keep my symptoms in check then, too, but it was a pretty awful life. Doing crafts was my only pleasurable outlet for years.
Then I met the man I would marry, and life opened up again. We moved away from our families, and started our own. It's so obvious now that we both had symptoms, but also other things -- both of us were being treated for depression before we got married, in an attempt to get that under control. Moving away from the influence of our families was also going to help, we hoped. And for a while, it did. When our son was born, my husband changed a lot, in ways that totally match things that I've read about on this forum. And as we were no longer equal partners taking care of things, that put a lot on me that I simply couldn't handle. Again, I got into doing lots of crafts and hobbies, and also did projects around the house. Sometimes it felt more driven than fun since I didn't have ex's help when I should have, but overall, depression was worse, too, due to marriage issues. I have never looked at it as something that was giving me a dopamine fix until now - they were a form of self-soothing or self-medicating. It makes sense.
So, there are good things that I can see from being on the med -- I'm not running to Joann Fabrics and Michaels to buy lots of supplies anymore, or going to estate sales to buy things for my business. But, those things also fed a part of me, a part that I have always considered to be a positive part. I enjoy doing them, and I know that's part of the dopamine thing, but I have also been told that I have a talent for these things that I've done. And, my business was successful. I really would like to get it going again as a much-needed source of extra income.
But part of me is afraid that if I get started again, I will either 'fall off the wagon,' so to speak, and go back to unhelpful behaviors like buying supplies or inventory again, OR, I will be so worried about that that I will no longer enjoy it. Aside from the practical side of knowing I need the money, I have absolutely no passion or desire to get it going again. That makes me very sad.
I know we change throughout our lives, and things we used to do when we were younger may no longer appeal to us. I'm finding that the opposite is true, in some ways. Things that I loved to do from the time I was a kid, but couldn't due to my strict parents, or marriage/family obligations, are still there. I'm doing some now, like dancing. And that's great -- I feel really especially lucky that I was able to get back to it after my car accident, though my head injury has adversely affected it in some ways.
I just don't want the med to make me into an efficient worker bee for my job...and that's it. There's more to me than that. I am not in a relationship, so I don't have to worry that having some symptoms return would negatively affect a partner. Frankly, my zombification makes me less of a parent than I'd like to be in some ways, too. I want to find that sweet spot between drone and crazy bouncing off the walls. Is that even possible? Are there enough automated scheduling and bill-paying apps and programs to help with organization and CBT treatments, etc., to make it possible to have my dopamine stimulated by life instead of by a med? Your point about 'effects' vs. 'side effects' is a good one.
Also, I'm still not sure about the timing of the Adderall and the effects I'm seeing. I'm still not very knowledgable about how it all works in the brain. If the Adderall is stimulating the dopamine, and the Adderall has run out by the time I get home from work, theoretically, wouldn't that leave my brain itching for more dopamine, and therefore I would have to urge to do crafts or whatever to get a 'fix'? That obviously hasn't been what happened, though. So, has my brain gotten used to a cycle of dopamine during the workday hours (which has allowed me to be productive), and then it just crashes after work? If that's the case, would taking the Adderall later into the day allow me to stay productive even after I get home? That would be helpful for things like keeping my house up -- and so far, that has seemed to be the case to a small extent.
But that still doesn't cover the whole creativity/enjoyment puzzle. What affects the whole initiation/motivation process - is that a different neurotransmitter? The necessity of getting to my job and doing my job to keep us fed and a roof over our heads provides motivation. It always has, so that's not a problem with or without medication. Deadlines provide motivation (still gotta do my taxes, lol!). I'm trying to puzzle this through as I'm writing, so I end up with more questions, lol.
There were times when I would get immense joy from the things I did. I want my joy back. :( Or do I have to trade that away in order to not be stressed out by negative symptoms?
A Couple of Things
Submitted by kellyj on
First....I wanted to comment on something you said in another post ( somewhere?) that really registered with me.....about thinking that you may not be cut out to be in a relationship or not being able to find someone that will fit with you....being doomed so to speak to repeat the same thing you've done before so maybe you'd be better off being single and alone? I'm paraphrasing but I'm also filling in with my own words....the same one's I have felt and maybe only to a lesser degree now...but still do all the time! Your not alone......that voice has never really ever left but....I use it now for motivation instead of letting it get me down and depressed. I have fought with depression for most of my life off and on and I really think that it never really goes away entirely and is just lurking under the surface.....it's just worse when something bad happens and I really notice it. I've resigned myself thinking that if this is as good as it gets..... I can live with that....if you can't beat 'em,join'em. lol
The Adderall really does help with the depression for me because....let's face it.....along with increased ability to stay focus and all the other things that it does for my ADHD......it also feels good and like you are saying.....I do get more done on it and can work longer when I'm on it without getting as tired. This is NOT why they give it to us! ha ha ha But it does feel good too. In this case...it is one of the so called side effects that is not a bad one. lol As you can kind of get from my description of myself....I tend to push the envelope with nearly everything I do...saying....I tend to push everything as far and as hard as it will go until it breaks and then back off to where I know it won't.lol This does let you know where the ceiling is though and I have done lots of experimenting with my doses to get them dialed in and simply watched and paid attention to all the pro's and con's until I found the best compromise between them.
But what I really wanted to say about medication is more of a warning....if you try and do to many things at the same time including supplements or alternative medications....I can see where you might not know what is doing what? If that makes sense. I'd be apt to try one thing at a time to see what is does without combining them which might take a while to really find out what works and what doesn't before I would start to add more things to it no matter what it is and try and pay attention to everything....mood, focus, the drive thing you were talking about. FYI: the drive or motivation thing seems to have more to do with my mood than it does with being amped up on Adderall or not. I have some more thoughts about your comments but I will need to come back later............
AV I'm Back
Submitted by kellyj on
To finish my train of thought about your comments about being even more puzzled after reading about the differences between you and I made me immediately think about the link in the post on Cortisol. That was the first real definitive confirmation about the type of ADHD I have since it was so close to being a perfect explanation due to the ear aches/ infections that I had when I was an infant and in my early childhood. I've been trying to figure this out ever since I was diagnosed and there has been different speculations by my therapist and med prescriber's at different times. My gut was saying to me that I really must be either combined or hyperactive type but most of the things I have read or learned still left this somewhat open until I read that blog. If I had any doubt before I am more than a little confident now in saying that I am 99% sure I fall into the full blown ADHD/hyperactive sub group category and I no longer feel the need to speculate any more. This didn't just come from that blog article but from the culmination of my own research combined with everything else I've been told or have read.
I think the answer to why you are still puzzled about yourself might be from not having your sub/type pinned down possibly. I'm saying this because I felt the same way as you. So much of what I have read still left me conflicted because so much of this information sometimes seems to overlap with one another to the point of frustration for me. I knew the minute I would read any article or research that some of it just didn't seem fot fit me at all. I now think this is because of the differences in the the sub group types and the difference between them saying......this has really helped me zero in on the specifics as they apply to me which gives me a much better understanding of where to look and what to look for in all regards including medication.
One more interesting bit of information will add here has to do with my oldest sister. She is much older than I am so we did not have the same kind of relationship that a sibling might have that is closer in age saying.....I never had the chance to compare her to me in the way that a person might have while they are growing up. My mother passed away last year which triggered me to back track a lot since that time and it suddenly occurred to me that I now very strongly suspect that my oldest sister also has a touch of ADD but ...she definitely would fall into the ADD/inattentive sub type. I'm almost positive this is the case with her but...it is not something that I am going to bring up to her since it would serve no purpose to do so at this time and at her age. She has managed to get through life to this point by all accounts very well and if it ain't broken...why fix it?
But thinking more in terms of you and your questions about women with ADHD and the possible difference...and my comment to you earlier that I really know very little about this...if I now use my sister as I have speculated as a model at least in one case....I at least do know about her and what she is like in depth to see how differently we are in some ways but very very similar in other areas of our personalities and I can see right off the bat how the gender difference, roles and female stereotypical tendencies can come into play under the same set of circumstance as it was in my own family. Add the inattnetive sub group ADD into this and I can now see these difference much more easily than I could before. Your story about having to be a caregiver and being isolated in a strict structured environment really seems to make sense to all of this and what you were saying.....nature vs nurture has a lot to do with this I think and adding in gender and opportunities for your ADHD to fllourish and blossom as it did for me might have a lot to do with the nurture component.
If anything.....the things that were mentioned in the blog about cortisol really pointed out some distinct differences ( the research that was referenced ) and the one that stood out and I remember reading had to do with the split between hyper vs inattentive having to do with possible comorbid anxiety issues more with inattentive type and comorbid opositional/defiant tendencies in the hyper type especially with boys/males. The later would be me of course which I now see more and more as I place myself into this category and look at all the behaviors I had when I was growing up. The interesting and most telling part to this for me was that we both had a strong and rather strict religeous family structure...and the artistic talent ( mine was recognized at a very ealry age....the drawing ) but that is where the similarities seem to end. My opportunity to do most of the things I described did not come from having either money or it being handed to me and most of the time it was forged out of pure determination and drive to do it on my own which took effort and many times....a high price in terms of being punished or attempts to restrict me by my parents. it obviously didn't work and my parents at a certain point reluctantly gave in much more than they were comfortable with most of the time. It seemed that it was always a fight for me to do the things I wanted to do. Simply put...."where there's a will, there's a way" could have easily been my mantra growing up. I now see the drive in my motivation if I couldn't before......I was compelled and there was no putting the brakes on even if I tried. Which in my case......I mostly forgot where the brake pedal was anyway! ha ha Life can be interesting at times to say the least. lol
Anyway...I think you should do some more research about where you fit into the sub group category as well as the gender differences which might help to answer some of the same questions that I was asking for myself. You have at least one self confirmed ADHD/hyperactive male (me) to use as a control to help narrow things down. I hope this helps?
J
ADHD sub-types
Submitted by AlmaVera on
Hi J-
Thanks for your reply. :) I don't remember who posted it here (maybe you? lol), but today I saw a link to an explanation of Dr. Amen's 7 ADHD sub-types. That was very interesting! He told how he treats the various sub-types, including with different diets and supplements. I'm definitely going to look at that, especially how it combines with other things I've been reading about supplements used for treating post-concussion problems. There are some places where treatments for both overlap.
And an update on my new med regimen -- last night I slept through the night without a single wake-up for the first time in months!! It's so strange to me, how later stimulant dosing and 1/2 the Ambien dose is helping me sleep better. I always knew I was kind of a weirdo -- I guess this just proves it, lol.
AV
I completely know what your
Submitted by s00manyquestions on
I completely know what your talking about with the higher , in my case, for you , later etc...all varieations I felt it the first few nights of Adderal, it was more than a beautiful thing to fall asleep quickly without waking up once!!! OMG Holy Crap! This is amazing..almost spiritual. hehe. I'm very happy for you and wish you many more! I actually started this. I only found this while i was looking for a dif answer from a quesion that going on in a different forum. Didn't answer our question bu the find is a gem!! Subtypes....I 'd also be interested in further researching....I love to research if its cool...of course.
have you ever tried lunesta
Submitted by s00manyquestions on
have you ever tried lunesta iys ambien. It can make u do crazy things
No, I've never tried Lunesta.
Submitted by AlmaVera on
No, I've never tried Lunesta. I heard a lot of bad things about it. I tried almost everything else, though, and my insurance didn't cover it. Ambien CR was the only thing that worked for my type of sleep disorder. Luckily, I never had the crazy side effects they say Ambien can cause, either, lol.
I'm a Weirdo Too AlmaVera ha ha
Submitted by kellyj on
I've used words like freak, weirdo, more balls than brains, obsessed,hyper, extreme, over the top, intense etc...to describe myself at times but usually and more importantly....more "tongue in cheek" than actually how I see myself most of the time. I think it's a way to acknowledge to others that I am aware of it but without going too far ovr board in my thinking but yet......still true to a degree..... and a place that I think it is important to look at.
It is what other people see at times even if they might be viewing it differently saying.....some people may see that and go "holy shit, this guy is out of control"..or "OMG, this behavior is so totally unacceptable. I would never do that or say those things myself ", "that's so annoying and disturbing","this makes me nervous and it frightens me","difficult","obstinate and stubborn","strange or different" and of course I can't forget "asshole".................and that right there is where all trouble begins.
I know in that last statement, there is a great deal of truth...but at the same time...it is not true at all.
I also know this because what other people ( different ones than the ones who made the first speculations about me) have said to describe me as: a "Renaissance Man", 'talented", "brilliant", "surprising", "off the chart (in a complimentary way)", "optimistic", "annoyingly smart and funny ( referring to my ability to surprise them and this seems to come "out of no where?"...both a compliment and an apparent difference in how they thought I was in a more discrediting way), "scary "( referring to being both surprising and unpredictable), "kind and thoughtful","open and honest","congenial" and a "nice guy" (which I have struggle with at times saying...."nice guy" can mean different things at different times both good and bad....bad as referred to as being "too nice") I get that.
These are the thoughts and feelings that other people have expressed to me at different times in my life. Some were from my past and some are more from recent times. But there is truth to all of them in each one if you look at them separately...but this is not how I see myself. I see them all as a part of who I am but certainly not how I see myself in my entirety. My entirety is a combination of things including the ones I said plus...my ADHD. I can't separate these things the same as other people can but I realize at the same time.....they're only going off what they see and what they know. The one word that I have used at times to simplify it for other people is being "different" and with that comes both a sense of pride at times...and a sense of self loathing and feeling alone and separate at others. The latter is in a negative way and the former being positive. When I feel OK by all accounts I feel "indifferent" to being "different" and that's what I feel most of the time thank God!! That's my goal now more than anything....to feel indifferent and feeling neutral as much as possible most of the time. I'd say I haven't had difficulty feeling neutral most of my life...but I realize now that when I'm not....it is trying to tell me something. That is what I more recently have done to figure out what "that" is, and what that is trying to tell me and to this point....I think I've been able to provide answers to, which in itself makes me less anxious and able to return to "N" must easier than before.
And yes....I did go to Dr Amen's site and took the test he provided. I am so interested in this right now that I wanted to share what I've discovered here with everyone (in another post to the forum...I'm doing a research experiment with my wife at home and I will be writing up my findings) thinking that it might be useful to see what another person has come up with. I'm saying this realizing that this is probably not going to be interesting to all the nons but it could be depending on the place they are in with their spouses.
That denial thing is a bitch and I really have no answers for someone who isn't ready or willing to look at themselves. Like you were saying to someone else (jenna nonadd ??)....there can be many reasons why a person can't do this and part of it can be that they aren't ready to. I know for myself...it had to come in stages because it just becomes too overwhelming to absorb that much information and emotion at the same time all at once. That is why it does require a great deal of patience for everyone when it comes to this.
Those of us who have ADHD would be well advised to keep this in mind and remember that when we are considering our spouses or SO's/boyfriends or girlfriends.
Appreciation is required here if I'm not making myself clear. lol
J
Oh man...I' not exactly sure
Submitted by s00manyquestions on
Oh man...I' not exactly sure the whole topic..but i read some prior. Sorry. Just jumping in because of time limitations...The MOVE!! So much already happened and is happening right now. Spent a whole night just wi myself and thoughts as I emptied my belongings into my new space...NO TV...NO INTERNET!! and NO PHONE!! Totally earriee but a true reminder of the importance of self acceptance ... In the beginning and the end..we are alone. We have to be comfortable in out own shoes. I am reminded how I've lost that along the way. I sat there....cramped into a small room. Not a room thats 'mine' that's in the house I live in. A rm that is now my whole entire life and environment for living...Weird. I only had 1 Adder, small b of green and 2 xanax on me...it's 600pm...hmmm? I hadn't finished moving all my crap. From the house yet and a few more loads were needed. This was a totally different experience. One that I don't know how I feel about it. But actually, wouldn't matter how I felt about it becaue I really dont have a choice here. Well, a night alone and truely alone. But since my last lovely encounter w the police...a ticket.. a massive one!! shit! blah blah...sometimes I just get tired being me. I can't image being someone one the other side...looking at 'me' and my actions. Both exhausting for one reason or another. It's amazing how any of us keep going...remaining patiently.
I'll check out Dr Amens website..now im intrigued
K. I have to leave. I should load the boxes thats giving me the stare down. right now
Thanks and again. sorry to totally go in there. Just wanted to mention i'm interested in this thread.
Hey s00somanyquestions
Submitted by kellyj on
I just made a post to the "progress" section in the forum that has to do with Dr Amens site and this thread that you might find interesting. I have to take a break from the forum for a while and get back to staying on top of my ADHD and time....time spent here in other words. lol I just wanted to say that I really think it's great that you are trying to figure things out which I know you wll if you keep on the same track your on now. It does take time so make sure to remember that. Like I said to you in your first post. Do yourself a favor and " Give yourself a break".........I'll add to that......even if no one else does. I'm not talking about just time here either. lol
That's the concept
J
thanks for that!! au all
Submitted by s00manyquestions on
thanks for that!! au all have and i completely agree about needed to take a break so the time on this forum is beneficial and a reward. The comfort that you all have given is treasured and Im so thankful!!! i'll chk out the progress section..thanks! im sure its great. and i look forward to catching up some time. hope all is well and continue to be!! give myself a break..yeah..full circle..that was and still remains to be a great idea! hehe