I have posted in the past trying to find a place to make sense of what is happening in my life and my marriage. Although I've continued using this site as a place to read and reflect, I haven't posted in some time. My husband and I have since seen a therapist and honestly things have gotten worse. He finally took the suggestion of the therapist and began taking Straterra. It was a bust. The raging, ranting, and blaming went through the roof for about a month. I thought it was bad before, but it was pure torture. He now take Neurontin, which does seem to keep him a little more calm, but it does nothing to organize this thoughts or recognize his behavior. He is no longer living in our home. I made the decision for him to leave. Well, I made the decision after I realized he was lying, again about his pay checks. Bringing up the discrepancies, per usual means that I'm a greedy bitch who only cares about money. I'm confused how bring up and wanting to discuss the situation of him lying gets turned to me being a greedy bitch, but this is how it seems to work with ADHD partners. I'm his scapegoat. The therapists aren't convinced that he has ADHD. I struggle with whether or not he has ADHD or he's just a straight up narcissist. I feel pretty confident that he has ADHD, which u treated for so long has caused a lot of narcissistic traits. I'm not a Dr. Or an expert. Most of my information from forums like this, or articles online. However, I feel like I'm an expert on his behavior. How would the therapist know? I never get a word in at the therapy sessions and honestly I'm a wreck by the time we get there and he rambles and rants without taking a breath for the first 45 minutes. Basically boxing me out of being able to explain what's happening. I don't really know what the therapist is thinking about the situation. Honestly, I think she thinks I'm a controlling bitch. And I'll agree that at this point, I've become somewhat controlling and making my husband leave his home does seem like a bitch move, but I know in my gut that it's the right choice, whether the truth will ever come out or not. He has all the symptoms. He wants nothing to do with finances or bills, and he is stingy about his earnings. Meanwhile, I'm trying to take care of everything, clean up financial messes, bank fees, credit scores etc. but I'm a greedy bitch because i ask questions. He can barely dress himself. He loses everything. He stops by the store. 3-4 times a day. He lies about his lies then tries to convince of the lies or that he didn't lie. Confusion. Vagueness. When things don't make sense, I ask questions and I'm met with rage and anger. Is he a Narcissist? I don't know. He does show a lot of the qualities, however he isn't very good at it. He isn't organized enough to cover his own ass. He isn't a very stealthy liar. Or manipulator. Although he tries and fails. Which makes him even angrier. The cycle for us is that he "messes up". He doesn't manage his time, he doesn't fix his car, he over draws his account, he forgets to do this or that. We are married so many of these things affect me negatively making my days harder and I'm stuck cleaning up the mess and often times getting blamed. I speak up and try to find solutions. He rages, rants, lies, insults, stomps and slams, talks louder and faster, and can't handle the criticism. I get it. No one likes to hear their "mess ups" but how can I just be ok with it. How can it get better without bringing it up? You can't ignore the bank. You can't ignore that your car doesn't work. You can't ignore these things. I get the blame. Every when he apologizes, there is always a "but you". Or "it takes 2 to argue" or "I was just reacting to your... " . I'm in a position of feeling confused. At one point I don't want to be a victim and not take responsibility for my actions... As I'm asking him to do the same, but honestly, I've done nothing but try to find solutions. Have I argued? yes. Have I lied? No, never. It's his intention to avoid all of this and he wants me to avoid it too. He's actually said to me "when I'm done(throwing a raging tantrum)I'm fine". Or "Just let me" (insult and verbally attack you and lie). "Don't bring things up that you know upset me" ( things like wanting to discuss a blatant lie). "Don't poke a bear" ( apparently, I married a bear, and not a human man).
I need acknowledgement of these wrongdoings. All of them. I'm resentful. I'm human. But I want to be committed to my husband, who I believe is sick, but I can only do so much. He is currently only allowed to email me. Otherwise I'll be berated all day by text. I'll be blamed for everything that goes wrong in his day. If not blamed, I'll still get the anger and frustration taken out on me.
I believe my mother be a narcissist. Ive learned that my traits are typical of a child in scapegoat role of a family with a narcissistic mother. I've learned recently that much of my life wasn't as normal as I thought. I'm nervous to even say that, as it makes me a victim and it's not my intention. I never saw myself as a victim. I was always told I was difficult aNd angry and bad. I believe now, that I married one. Whether due to ADHD or not. I want to run and wash my hands of the whole thing, but I cared about him. I took vows and I Took them seriously. I feel like he uses my commitment to his advantage. I just can't believe I'm in this position. I learned so much, but them jumped right back into the same situation. I was the perfect person for him. Accommodating, caring, selfless, giving, generous... All to be taken advantage of and used against me. When I stopped, the tantrums started. Is my husband really that bad? Or am I not seeing something in myself? This is where the guilt comes into play.
I feel like his chaos and confusion is rubbing off on me. Im having a hard time even making sense now and organizing my thoughts. Luckily I'm seeing my own therapist now. But I'm impatient. I tried to get this going two years ago and it's just now happening. Now there is 2 years worth of things to deal with when initially, when I saw the red flags and brought it up, there were only a handful.
Can i risk waiting on him ? Risk more damage to my self esteem? Risk wasting more years on him? I've seen articles and forums where ADHD people come to terms with it, and acknowledge their behaviors and mistreatment of their spouses. I've read that it hits them, maybe after medication or therapy. How does that happen? What initiates that realization? I'm afraid it only happens after they lose their partner. So basically, he might get it, but not until I move on. So maybe he will do better the next time around. But I'm afraid the roles for us are set in stone and can not change.
Im so mad at myself for not caring about myself more and recognizing the situation for what it was. i really thought that we could work anything out, but this... This is not something i was prepared for.
Thoughts or advice is welcome, but honestly, I just need a place to get it out and hope that someone else understands.
Dear Honeyblond
Submitted by jennalemone on
You have articulated your situation so well. It is familiar. Yes, that is what I do with this forum as well. Trying to put my thoughts into words and see if they stick in my own head as the truth. I hear your grieving of your marriage and your dreams. I hear you. Thanks for sharing.
Jennalemone, thank you.
Submitted by honeyblonde on
Thank you for responding,
I just don't know if there is hope. Maybe I need to find better ways to cope.. But that's frustrating to me. It feels like I'm just accounting him more. I wish there was an answer.
I thought today about something that I haven't been able to get out and make sense of until recently. I have become controlling. I never wanted to be, but I can hear myself do it. At the same time, he's so out of control all the time. I feel like he's never paying attention. He is frantic, unorganized, irresponsible, snappy, edgy and generally doesn't have control of himself, which has made me become controlling. I'm now the wife that is constantly reminding him of the speed limit, did you brush your teeth, did you take out your contacts, did you do this or remember that. However, he asks me a ton of questions. He seems like he's so scared to make a single decision ( he has always done this, before I became controlling). "Where should I park, is this ok, what should I wear, what do I do" etc. I have tried to help him become more secure, but it's all backfired.
Mostly, I have just removed myself from situations where his actions affect me, but basically we are going to be strangers. I can't ride in a car with him, vacation with him, eat dinner with him, go to bed with him, have children with him, each a movie with him, etc. All the enjoyable things that couples do have been removed from our marriage.
i still ill don't know what to do... I feel like I'm stalling the inevitable.
similar issues
Submitted by meiohsetsuna on
Crap it sounds like me. I opened up this forum for help today... its day 4 of my husband ignoring me. We had a fight, he was in the wrong, but he refuses to admit it. I'm tired of having to be the one who mends things because I dont think thats how it is supposed to go. And I am also a newlywed. I've been debating whether I should get a divorce... most people seem to advise getting out of the situation before its too late... :(
I actually filed annulment
Submitted by honeyblonde on
I actually filed annulment papers today,.. After A LOT of thinking, trying, crying, and therapy.
I used this forum for about 6 months... Really trying to understand it, fix it, save it, but the bottom line was that he never "got it" and he wasn't trying to solve anything. He was and still today, is making excuses, lying to himself, and trying to pass blame for his poor choices.
My biggest WOW moment was after reading something very simple... "Some people are just selfish". I decided I didn't deserve to spend my life with someone who is just plain selfish.
Ypu up will know when it's time. When you are satisfied with what you have done. I finally stopped. When I stopped and nothing happened... For 6 months... That's when I really realized he would never take it upon himself to make an effort for me or our marriage. My efforts were carrying us all along.
I gave myself a mental time line... I knew how much time I would give to him... And after no changes, no effort, no improvement, I decided to move forward without him.
Good luck... My suggestion is to stop and see what happens. Will he make the effort?
Time will tell
Submitted by meiohsetsuna on
I guess I am starting on that timeline. Its been 4 days since our last fight, and it ended with me saying something along the lines of, "If you are going to be that way, I am NOT talking to you." After he yelled a few more obscenities at me and tossed the garbage back and forth a bit, he finally quieted. And the ensuing 4 days have been absolute quiet; he is refusing to talk to me or acknowledge my existence. Over the weekend he sat there on his computer all day with headphones on; I am invisible.
Almost always, I am the one to apologize. He tells me that I am the one with the mental problem, not him. (I never said adhd was a mental health problem???) At the time I was actually trying to see a therapist about my own depression that I was silently suffering. (My therapist strongly suggested divorce... but I didnt want to hear it... and honestly that particular therapist has a bad reputation, so I stopped seeing him) And there have been a few times, I am ashamed to admit, that he caused me to lose my temper and stoop to his level. I'm not a violent person, so it hurt me to no end to have been the first one to commit a violent act. I haven't let myself break since then.
We have been married for a year now, together for 2.5years. Still a newlywed I suppose. I cant go out in public with him. I cant remember the last time we had an actual date. He is a workaholic so I dont see him much anyway. We're an international marriage, which complicates things further. (We live in Japan, where misogyny rules and the xenophobic laws are all against me, and he is Japanese) And I already know in my heart of hearts, that having children with this man could be the biggest mistake I ever make.
I keep giving him chances, but I think I need to stop doing that. When does it officially become abuse?
I'd file for divorce already if I didnt have ZERO funds and also two lovely cats that I wouldnt dare leave with him. Its going to take time to build up my financial base, I only just started a new job. I'm also not opposed to just getting up and leaving without legally divorcing.
I dont think he will stop and make the effort. He believes that I am the monster, and he is innocent.
But I guess time will tell. Thats all I have now.
Take care of yourself
Submitted by honeyblonde on
And get what you need to do what's best for you. Your story is all too familiar...
Thoughtful Acts of Kindness and Selfishness...Honeyblonde
Submitted by kellyj on
When I read through what you said here....I wanted to comment on something that struck me. This is a difficult concept to try and convey to someone so I'll just say it and let the cards fall as they will. I am trying so hard not to be a victim myself....that I try very hard not to see the victim in myself...and see things from a different perspective.
My perspective here in seeing your soon to be ex....is exactly what I'm trying not to do since this was and still has an "affect" on me to a far lessor degree than in my past growing up and living with undiagnosed ( and untreated ADHD ) for so much of my life under those circumstances. A lifetime of learning and experiencing how others treat you sometimes without the ability to understand why...is what brings you to this thinking which is a very difficult thing to reversed and see things differently.
I'm going to make a post about what I have learned about "patience" and there is a lot more to patience than meets the eye as I have learned. Under the guise of patience.....comes the inability to "tolerate" things and this is where I think the term "selfishness" can easily get confused? I cannot argue for a second...that what feels like such a disrespect in all the ways there are....is exactly right on your behalf. It is without a doubt....completely disrespectful to you....when you are on the other side of what you experienced and have tried so hard to understand and to "fix" yourself. And because I'm a "fixer" by nature....I have come to understand that trying to do this for another person is impossible and futile at best? You can't fix what's wrong with another person ...so any efforts you put into that are almost a waste of time.
BUT......you can do other things to "effect change" or "influence another person to do so"....but their willingness to do it.....is really what this is all about? And within that willingness...... either being there or not....comes into play a whole lot of things to consider here...and one of them is patience or their ability to "tolerate" the feelings you have in the moment...or even in an on going basis?
The question really becomes one of "tolerance" on both sides not just in one person only? Intolerance...is the inability to tolerate...and that only leads to selfishness which is just the symptom.....not the cause as I am saying this? This is where it gets really tricky here and I defaulting instead of blame or passing judgment...to seeing things in a different way now since these labels that don't affect me very much...do very much affect my wife and I am learning better to live with what was intolerable...by seeing it this way instead........
"Selfishness"...with in it...and by itself....is a judgment that you've place on your H's actions from what you've experienced with it. "Within it".....means.....YOU are inside of it as well and being inside the circle and seeing it and you feel it...it comes across to you as selfishness if that is all you can see....and based on what you feel? If you step out of the circle itself..and you are no longer within it....I think I can better say something to you...in a generous way even having ADHD myself.....and even despite what you are saying that I might take offense to.....but only if...I was being that victim myself...and seeing others as "doing things to me...that I can't tolerate." And as I am saying this to you now....I no longer see things this way and I can see a different side to this and say you are actually being "Kind" instead. Kind to yourself...and to your H....due to your own intolerance to him.
The point I'm trying to make here with you...is not to be contrary of refute you or cast blame or fault. I'm speaking from a place of not being a victim...and not taking on the victim role with you and trying to apply anything but....victim mentality...or victim language with you here now as I'm saying this? If and when you are at "odds" with someone...you are immediately in an adversarial role? Anything they might say to you...is automatically seen from this adversarial postilion so the meaning and everything that goes with it...will take on this competitive stance?
I'm not going to play that game with you, my wife or anyone else for that matter...and saying straight up.....I'm not doing that with you here and seeing things from a different perspective or "light" if you will. A positive "light" which not adversarial? You may not realize this or even know this is true....but what you're doing is an act of kindness on your H's behalf by recognizing your own intolerance to him and all that he does to cause you to feel disrespected and hurt from it. You might be highly sensitive or easily hurt on one hand...but that's irrelevant to this since this is in your right to be that way? You do not have to defend against being sensitive or having your feelings hurt by any means..and when someone does the things they do that cases you to feel discarded along with your feelings....it is not only disrespectful...and warrants a fair amount of anger on your part...but it also comes with a fair amount of feeling betrayed and hurt along with it and no one can fault you for that because that part is absolutely true. There is no arguing this and you are not wrong or have any reason to have to defend yourself against someone acting this way and causing you to feel these things which would be normal...for anyone, under the same circumstances to feel this way?
But when it comes right down to it....it's your own ( and mine or anyone else's ) intolerance and sensitivities that are really coming into play here not selfishness as I am seeing it. If you are truly going to be honest with yourself and why you have decided to file for an annulment...is because you recognize that you do not have the ability to tolerate what is not tolerable for you...and also recognizing that you do not have the patience..to put up with this any longer. That's not being a victim right there...and taking responsibility for your own inability to manage under the circumstances....while being Kind...to the other person at the same time. It is an act of kindness in doing this on your H's behalf..and you don't need to justify what your doing...by saying it's because he's selfish. That's just lowering yourself to his level since he's the victim here...not you?
When you said... "I gave myself a mental time line... I knew how much time I would give to him... And after no changes, no effort, no improvement, I decided to move forward without him. " As I hear this....I think of what patience really is? The net effect of "impatience"...and speaking from the place of taking full responsibility for your own emotions and feelings...suggests, that imposing an artificial time line or dead line on another person....without their knowledge ( as in a mental time line? ) or without an agreement...spoken to them so their is clear understanding of how you feel by expressing this openly ( instead of silently ....like "double secret probation" )...is really just you...and your own inability to tolerate these things...and with that...the inability to be "patient".
What this boils down to is what is called "tolerance of affect" in psychological terms. You have your own "tolerance of affect" within yourself...and another within what is "tolerable" in another person of another persons behavior as well. "Tolerance of immediate gratification"...and "tolerance of not getting what you want" also come in to play here ie: "time frame" or "accepting what you cannot do without"...when it comes to needs and wants and knowing the difference ...also come into play here? If a need is just a want...and you can't get it.....you could live without it if it's not a true need to survive....and so within that too...is just another "tolerance" inability on your part as well?
This is all saying one thing to you which I experienced myself first hand having ADHD and then becoming divorced for many of these same reasons...but only after going through so much heart ache and suffering...due to the "lacking" in my ex wife's "ability to tolerate"...which she blamed on me and threw that back in my face...only when her patience ran out....but refused to accept personal reasonability for her actions that lead up to the demise in our relationship. Her failure in all these areas herself...was to recognize this in herself....and admit her own failure in these areas...which only lead to untold damage done to me on my end which could have been completely avoided, if she had just been completely honest with me....and not with hold the truth. What she lacked was the the courage to stand up and say what she was really feeling..and was just biding her time until something better came along...or until she found the strength inside herself to leave. That secret mental time line that you mentioned...was never spoken about openly..and I was never given the chance to do anything about it...until the day she decided to leave...and then tell me about it only at that time. This was not only unfair....but totally devastating to me and was completely selfish and unfeeling on my behalf because of it. I cannot tell you the damage and the hurt that I experienced from this...and she was so uncompassionate and self serving in her attitude towards me and how that made me feel? Like a discarded milk container...that once it served it's purpose...was thrown in the trash with the rest of the refuse that goes to the dump. Literally dumped and thrown away...with no regard for my feelings what so ever..... when my usefulness was done. She used me to get what she could from me..and secretly stash money and hide it from me...in an effort to save enough to leave..which took her years of secretiveness and deception...for finally accomplish without my knowledge? This was in essense....stealing from me and our relationship...in an effort to leave since she didn't have the cash to do so on her own. She was looking for a way to stay in the marriage...she was looking for a way to get out of it...but without the courage to say so...and act unilaterally, and unconditionally in a self serving way 100%. Doing so secretively....and without saying so ahead of time: No ultimatums...No second chances...No working with me....nothing. She was done...but she didn't so. She didn't say anything, No heart to heart discussions, no open dialog...and nothing honest or with any integrity on her part what so ever. All of this....was done secretively and behind my back, without my knowledge since she didn't have any money her self...because she spent it all on clothing, and personal items, going out with friends and playing the role of one of the women int the show "Sex in the City" ...drinking expensive drinks in bars and trying to look sheik and debonair. This was what was most important to her along with that same kind of persona and self image she was not willing to do without. She could have easily lived without all of those things ( they were not "needs" by a far stretch of the imagination ) ....so she wouldn't have to be responsible for he herself and her own actions...in the face of what she herself could not tolerate...but could not admit that to herself. What she could not tolerate...was living "without" more than anything else. Saying this was her intolerance.....not mine?
And the reason for her own inability to be honest and forth right and speak from the same place as you're doing now...came from her being a victim...with victim mentality along with it ie:
" A victim...is a person who refuses to take personal responsibility for themselves and their own actions and or feelings...and tries to pass that off onto someone else in the form of blame and judgment instead."
So if you turn this around and look at the other side of this...and the damage and the hurt that my ex wife caused me at my expense not hers...it was from her own in abilities and her own intolerance that lead her to doing nothing and being selfish in this way looking at it from the other side? The inability to admit all of these thing...and be be honest with herself...and then in turn with me ...came from being a "Victim" with "victim mentality that always says it's because of the other person...as why "they have to leave." None of that is kindness...and all of it is selfish and self serving 100%.
In the hopes that you can see any of this...whether any of it applies to you or not....I simply wanted to implore you to stand up and be counted...and not be a victim or sight him...as the reason why you have to leave...but to be honest with him, and not be a victim yourself even if he's one ( which from the sound of it...he definitely is from what you said ) and speak the truth...and so say up front..and tell him exactly why you are leaving him from which includes your own inability to be tolerant and within that "tolerance of affect" which is really what this is all about?
"Tolerance of affect"...is not being selfish in it...and by itself. It only becomes selfish when in denial of the truth and being a victim yourself no matter which side of this your on. Please maintain your own integrity here...and do not lower yourself to his and make that contingent on why you have to leave. It takes courage more than anything...to maintain your own integrity here and that's the bottom line here I think?
What your doing is an act of kindness to him in all respects and to yourself which only shows your own integrity. You don't need to muddy the waters with what he's done..and throw that back on him and his own failures as the reason why by saying it's because he's "selfish".
SELFISHNESS = "low tolerance of affect"...."low tolerance of immediate gratification".....and "low tolerance of getting what you want"...all rolled together into one heading called; "Patience" You can respect someone...for admitting they;ve run out of patience and they are not suited well do their there own liabilities in these areas themselves or any sensitivities they have as a result of being "low" in these areas...and say to be with someone who is difficult and trying to be with in the exact same way...is not degrace and nothing to be ashamed of...if you speak from this place instead of speaking from the place of a victim instead? The fundamental failure within your H himself...comes from this exact thing and you do not need to lower yourself to his level...to accomplish what is actually a positive thing by not being this way yourself.
That is an act of kindness on your part on your H's behalf. That is a sign of integrity and you have nothing to be ashamed of...if this is what you do with it. How can you possibly be ashamed of being kind...which it really is on your H's behalf and this is the way you honestly feel about him? And if so...speak up and say so....and don't blame your leaving...on anything he's done or saying it's because he's selfish?
I hope that within what I said....you see where the term "selfish"...is a slippery slope indeed? "Low Tolerance of Affect"..and "impatience" with that mental deadline imposed on him......is really what is happening here on both sides of the coin? If that's the case...admit it and be honest..and say you are not cut out to be with him since you don't have what it takes but it's not his fault.
What you need to avoid at all costs yourself...... for your own sake and for your own integrity and for the respect you have for yourself...by not doing the same thing you see in your H ( being a victim who blames you for everything )...for the same reasons it happens with all of us as long as you can see this and understand why this happens? Understanding and effort is what you say you've done so there;'s not reason to stop there and become a victim yourself? This is what is really at stake her...once you start heading down that road I think? Do it for yourself in this way...which is not being a victim and being just the opposite of that: a person with integrity and one who demands respect, who has the courage to speak the truth about themselves first and foremost and not blame anyone else..for your decisions and the reason behind it? There is nothing wrong...with anyone finding themselves in a new and unfamiliar position with a person that has ADHD? And there's nothing wrong with saying you aren't cut out for this..and don't have what it takes to be a good partner because of it? And there's nothing wrong with leaving a person with ADHD ..if these are the reasons to do it.....the only thing that could possibly be wrong with any of this...is not admitting that this is the reason..and trying to blame that on your own intolerance and liability in these areas and being a victim yourself. That's the only thing that you could possiblity be in the wrong for doing...because by doing it....you are damaging the other person with no regard for their feelings...in a very disrespectful way whether you realize this or not. That is not kind....that is being selfish...yourself and self righteous no top of it. That's a lose / lose right there...but mainly and most important here..... you lose integrity and respect from others and betray yourself at the same time...any time you do it this way.
J
Selfish
Submitted by honeyblonde on
:lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure.
my husband is selfish. ADHD? Maybe, although he has not been diagnosed. Can he help it? I truly don't think he can, but the outcome that affects me is the same whether or not he can control it. If he can't control it, which he claims, he can take it upon himself to get help with it... Which he hasn't.
I have dealt with addiction, abuse and rage... I have been lied too, mistreated, stolen from, blamed, accused, insulted, intimidated and disrespected. I was betrayed on multiple levels.
I was very patient, heart broken, compassionate, and understanding. Patience is something I do not lack. My patience is probably what got me in the situation I'm in. I was too patient. Too understanding. Too compassionate.
My husband was selfish and that is why our marriage is over. It's not my responsibility to tolerate his selfishness, his rage, his impulsiveness, his addictions, his deceit, or his irresponsibility . I don't have to be perfect to expect to be treated kindly, cherished, considered, cared for, cared about, or loved, BY MY HUSBAND. He doesn't have to be perfect either, but I will no longer "tolerate" being abused, mistreated, lied too, accused, blamed, financially abused and used, or disrespected.
I spent many, many months, being patient, waiting, trying to find answers, solutions, for OUR MARRIAGE. He spent many many months, trying to avoid taking any responsibility or acknowledging his actions and the effects of those actions on our marriage... And really all I needed was for those things to stop happening so we could move on, but without recognizing or acknowledging ... They only continued. We saw therapist(s), separately and together. He was not willing to be honest and make the effort and he did not take any initiative to find any solutions or stop the behavior. I continue to see a therapist.
Im not like your wife, I didn't do anything secretly. I was very vocal. Initiated many conversations for solutions. I can't make someone do their part, or help themselves. I can only do my part, and I'm satisfied with the effort and the steps I took for my marriage and for him... And now I'm satisfied with the steps I took to take care of myself.
I feel like what you want to hear is that I wasn't enough or didn't have enough patience to tolerate or accept him. ( this thought is so familiar from my husband... He felt and said many times.. "wives are supposed to take this kind of stuff from their husbands sometimes". "It's a wife's responsibility to let me take out my frustrations on her". I ask you, how can it be reasonable that it's my responsibility to take being mistreated? But not his responsibility to learn how to stop it?) So No, I don't have what it takes to continue to be a victim of an abuser disguised as someone who loves me... Disguised as a husband. No one should have to tolerate abuse, manipulation, gas lighting, chaos, rage, intimidation, or the general betrayal from anyone. Particularly when the offending partner is not seeking help to change it. ITS NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY TO LEARN HOW TO DEAL WITH AND ACCEPT BEING MISTREATED. ITS NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY TO LEARN HOW TO WALK ON EGG SHELLS SO I DON'T ANGER MY HUSBAND (and "make him mistreat me" ) AND ITS NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY TO HAVE MORE PATIENCE WHILE IM BEING BROKEN DOWN DAY AFTER DAY TO SATISFY MY HUSBANDS IMPULSIVNESS, RAGE AND AVOIDANCE OF RESPONSIBILITY.
My responsibility is to myself.
I was a victim, for a time. I recognized it and I'm doing everything to stop it.
All of that being said... And
Submitted by honeyblonde on
All of that being said... And posted. The bottom line is that my husband has an expectation of " let me hurt you, because it makes me feel better". That is not a partnership I'm interested in or able to continue.
And thats all I can say about it for now.
Nope.......That's Not What I Want At All
Submitted by kellyj on
"I feel like what you want to hear is that I wasn't enough or didn't have enough patience to tolerate or accept him. ( this thought is so familiar from my husband...)
This is where it stops on my end Honeyblonde...as you started saying...."this thought is so familiar from my husband......" Let me tell you what I think...instead of applying what your husband thinks to me or what I said....just to start? What I said....when you are so use to or conditioned to be adversarial....you expect to be adversarial when hearing possibly the same thing...and the meaning and everything that goes with it...changes as well? I do expect this now...in light of the fact...that I'm still being seen this way....even if I'm not so I won't take offense. The reason I said this to you in the first place...was to try to avoid this or prevent this from happening...but it still did and I expect it...but it's just not the case with me? That's Okay too. but wait for the punch line here and see what you think?
He felt and said many times.. "wives are supposed to take this kind of stuff from their husbands sometimes". "It's a wife's responsibility to let me take out my frustrations on her". HA!! You've got to be Fucking kidding me right? In what alternative Universe...do he get off from in saying that? At best...this is Plutonian thinking as in "Pluto"...that's how far out in left field this is coming from and all I have to say to this beyond being ridiculous is.....is he joking? He must be... because this statement is a Joke!!! ha ha ha ha ha!! LOL
I ask you, how can it be reasonable that it's my responsibility to take being mistreated? But not his responsibility to learn how to stop it?) Like I said....it's a joke...it's that ridiculous? This isn't your problem...it's his this case. You don't have to take this ...but saying....don't lower yourself to this level...that's all I saying? Walk away clean with your head up and don't take this on as anything you;'ve done wrong...but saying....don;'t walk of egg shells either....stand and up and say NO....your Bullshit...and you this is totally absurd thinking on your part and I refuse to even listen to it....we're done until you can get your shit together because obviously from this statement alone...YOUR SHIT...is NOT together!! Or something like that?
So No, I don't have what it takes to continue to be a victim of an abuser disguised as someone who loves me... Disguised as a husband. No one should have to tolerate abuse, manipulation, gas lighting, chaos, rage, intimidation, or the general betrayal from anyone.
You're right. No should, would, could involved. You been gaslighted..and made to question yourself and what is right which in this case....you are not him. But be careful....being right in this case...only leads to self righteousness. You don't need to be self righteous...when you've done nothing wrong in respect to someone doing this too you. You only need to be confident in what you know...and not question yourself because of it. If he has power over you in how you feel...going from "fine" to "not fine"....once he walks into the room. He's controlling you and he has power over you and the ability to change how you feel about yourself. Cut those string man....and the puppet master will have no control!! This is what I'm talking about....not what your H is for sure for sure
Particularly when the offending partner is not seeking help to change it. ITS NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY TO LEARN HOW TO DEAL WITH AND ACCEPT BEING MISTREATED. ITS NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY TO LEARN HOW TO WALK ON EGG SHELLS SO I DON'T ANGER MY HUSBAND (and "make him mistreat me" ) AND ITS NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY TO HAVE MORE PATIENCE WHILE IM BEING BROKEN DOWN DAY AFTER DAY TO SATISFY MY HUSBANDS IMPULSIVNESS, RAGE AND AVOIDANCE OF RESPONSIBILITY."
You say you're not like my wife....but my wife is like your husband. She has unoffically undiagnosed ADHD and is highly resistant to change or doing anything about it...the same as your H. And she pops off with this total Bullshit too....."you should......." and then tells me what I should be like or what I should do...or...what I'm thinking as well? Like as if...she can read minds? She's said...."It's your job, to make me feel better"
Really? How is that possible? LOL ha ha ha ha That isn't my job? I don't have a job with her...I have a responsibility in many ways yes...but my job? HA!!! My job if any....is to make money as in work? What she's saying is the same thing your H is saying....my job is to take it...and make her feel better at the same time? LOL ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!! That's as big a joke...as what your H said? That would be like expecting me...to do brain surgery on her..and removing the ADHD parts....and sewing in a new part ...so she will feel better?? LOL Give me a break!!!
That's the punch line of the joke right there. All of this is total Bullshit...and you do not have to take it? But if you are running away from what you don't like ( moving away from the irritant or cause of what you don't like as in him? ) That's going away from behavior...not going towards something better? In the essence of everything I am trying to say.....you can....not walk on egg shells....not leave, not go anywhere...and not be affected by your H at all? This is possible and I'm doing it as we speak. I'm not going anywhere...but I'm not going to take it either and I'm not going to let my wife's abusive behavior....change on I feel about myself...or change me in any way. I don't have to leave to do this....it comes from within....is not contingent on anything your H says of does?
Like I said.....you having done anything wrong..and you don't have to take it or even live with this and I could not fault you or my wife or anyone...for not wanting to deal with the challenges that my ADHD presents to them.....all I ask or have ever asked...is that if this is a persons choice....that they don't blame me for it and do it for their own reasons which is the truth....that your not cut out to deal with this nonsense and is not what you signed up for and you just can't be happy unless you find it somewhere else and not with him. In other words...it was a mistake to marry you...but nether one of us new that...until we got her to find out. I am just as much in that description...since neither one of us knew at the time and it's just not working for me?
That's different than saying...."I'm leaving you because..... You're an abuser.... Disguised as a husband. You abuse, manipulation, gas lighting, chaos, rage, intimidation and you don't seek help to change it. You have me walk on egg shells and you break me down day break me down...day after day and mistreat me!!"
You You You You???? Victim language...always the other person? But what if...you can't use the word YOU...in any of this? YOU...is not allowed when you say the reasons why you are leaving and you can't blame, put fault, or accuse your H for anything as to why YOU yourself are leaving? What if....."YOU"....didn't exist in your vocabulary anymore...and now you have to tell me or anyone else...why you are leaving and give all the reasons why...without "YOU" in any sentence? ( YOU..as in the first person speaking about your H? )
I challenge you to do this on your own and see how far you get? I did this once a long time ago..and I got about 3 sentences out before I failed to do this?
ITS NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY TO LEARN HOW TO DEAL WITH AND ACCEPT BEING MISTREATED. ITS NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY TO LEARN HOW TO WALK ON EGG SHELLS SO I DON'T ANGER MY HUSBAND (and "make him mistreat me" ) AND ITS NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY TO HAVE MORE PATIENCE WHILE IM BEING BROKEN DOWN DAY AFTER DAY TO SATISFY MY HUSBANDS IMPULSIVNESS, RAGE AND AVOIDANCE OF RESPONSIBILITY.
It would only be...if you chose to stay just like me. It is possible to stay...and not be affected and to immunize yourself from this...and not be affected at all? It is possible...but are you willing to do it? "And the answer is NO. So stand on that...and don't make it about Him..and speak only for yourself and not making it about him but about you and how you feel. Not about HIM....about yourself and how you feel?
IF you walk out the door and make it about him...with all those YOU YOU YOU YOU...in your story......then he's still controlling you..and you're still a victim to him and he's still has power and control over you with those puppet strings attached.....even after he's gone? This is the reason why to do this. To free yourself from this which can be done...whether you stay or whether you leave. The choice to leave I can't blame you one tiny bit...but don't lower yourself to his level...that's all I'm saying? Do it...to gain strength and confidence and knowing with out shadow of a doubt...what your own feelings are and what you want for yourself..first and foremost above all else?
...and not making anything you do , say or feel.....contingent on anyone else? When you can do this without those YOU's in the sentence...."it will be time for you to leave" in the metaphoric sense...and leaving being a victim anymore?....as said by Master Po...in Kung Foo. ( in which I named one of my dogs after who only goes by Po :) Not that I can dco this always which I can't...but I'm getting closer all the time as this being my goal for myself?
https://youtu.be/txsicvoT6yo
On target, but....
Submitted by vabeachgal on
J:
Your insights are very often on target but it is sometimes difficult to get to the bottom of what you are saying especially in terms of the "victim" card. It is easy to misinterpret what you are saying as more victimization. Keep in mind that this has been a process of many years for you and many people on the forum are formulating their responses from scratch without benefit of years of self awareness, therapy and introspection? (yes, picking up your question mark habit) They are putting down raw thoughts and raw emotions in hopes of finding answers, insights or some connection and validation.
You seem hung up on the "sneakiness" of your prior marriage to the point where I wonder WTH happened. How long ago was that? My sisters ex husband is ADHD and abusive and an alcoholic and a cheater and chronically unemployed. He was the husband who would forget to pick up the kids from school and then be an ass about it.... AND I don't blame her one bit for formulating an exit strategy and financial plan. She had herself and two children to be concerned about. She would not have behaved that way (squirreled money and operated from a hidden agenda) if there hadn't been a reason. She does not have a character flaw. She was in an untenable situation from which she needed escape. If your ex wife was manipulative and self serving and not open and communicative, I am very, very sorry that you had to experience that. I am sorry that she did not communicate a second chance. (many of the partners on this forum would not avail themselves of a second chance as you might have). No one deserves that. No one. No one deserves to be blind sided. No one deserves to feel like a discarded milk carton. I am truly sorry. My sister was in a dangerous position. In her case, being in an ADHD Abusive relationship, being up front about her plans to leave would have been very, very, very bad. We don't live in the poster's shoes. We don't know how bad the abuse is. We don't know how demoralizing her experience has been. You posted yourself recently that verbal abuse can be just as bad, if not worse, than physical abuse. We don't know how much strength it's taken for her to come to her conclusion. It was not done lightly, I'm sure.
So, are you saying this?
I am leaving because I am worthy and I don't deserve..... and I am not intolerant but I cannot tolerate... blatant abuse... this is his problem, not mine?
not, I am leaving because my husband is a narcissistic abusive asshole which makes it still about him?
I think you meant kind words but it was hard to decipher. I think that you were imploring the poster to be strong and clear. I think it's hard to communicate the experience without the "me, me, me" because the recipient of the behavior is attempting to explain how it affects them and intellectual distance .. probably not happening.
ADHD is a big issue but I see time and again that women are on this forum with abusive ADHD husbands. Abusive relationships - well, that's a whole different set of dynamics and you do need to break through the "him" to the you and cut those strings and make it no longer about what the other person will do say, think, respond, etc. My sister has been to hell and back with an abusive husband and I do CONSIDERABLE volunteer work in this area. Abusive and ADHD? Well, my heart goes out to the poster. The last thing she probably needs is to feel at fault or intolerant. By all means, leave the relationship from a position of strength as, I think?, you are suggesting? But.... sometimes women end up crawling out by their fingernails and they are deserving of compassion and support. I am grateful that the poster hasn't reached that point before taking action. Thank goodness she still has that strength.
Vabeachgal
Submitted by honeyblonde on
Thank you for your thoughtfulness and being able to express your thoughts better than I can. Yes, often this forum is used for "raw" thoughts. I think J responded similarly quite a few months ago to one of my posts, and again, I'll respond by saying that this is a forum for discussion and venting thoughts to find solutions. I don't overthink my posts... I just type my thoughts. They are raw. They aren't always diplomatic and I don't always have to consider my husbands feelings when expressing myself on an anonymous forum.
In trying to explain my relationship and reading about ADHD and other personality disorders I'll leave with this...
Hes frantically digging himself into a hole, making everything he does so hard. He's throwing dirt around, working hard and dogging fast and chaotically. He's angry he's in a hole. He's angry he's dirty. He's angry he's not getting anywhere. Hes angry he's alone. He's angry I won't get in the hole with him. He tries everything to get me in this hole... Intimidation, rage, accusations, lies, sometimes he is amicable or even sweet, but it's all to get me to get in the hole with him. When I won't, (especially after he has been sweet or thoughtful, he feels I owe him) he's even angrier... Rages longer... More chaos, insults, accusations and abuse. It could go on for hours...or days. I've reached in, we lived together and eventually got married = added security for him) I've put a ladder in ( I contacted professionals, and his mother... which was a BIG mistake = compassion and understanding) I stood by the hole. ( waiting for him to make some decisions for himself without my Suggestion or demand = patience) I've stood by this hole for long enough. I'm walking away. I even walked away very slowly. He isn't getting himself out of the hole and I can't pull him out... Or make him or even show him how to get out ( my attempts are "controlling").
So the papers are filed. My time with ADHD or whatever his issues are will be over soon. I'm just working on me, and learning to avoid making the same mistake again.
I love the hole analogy.
Submitted by DependentOrigination on
I definitely relate and respect what you are doing with your life.
I have climbed in the hole with him, tried to fill in the hole, set up ropes to pull him out, showed him how to get out of the hole, asked other people to help him out of the hole, but you are right, he doesn't want to come out of it. I am currently standing beside the hole, waiting for him to come out.
I sincerely hope you avoid making the same mistake again. I don't really seem to learn lessons, or learn them so they stick. I hope this is a good enough lesson, that I have no choice but to learn.
Thanks for the analogy. Really helped me frame things.
I use a drowning analogy.
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
I use a drowning analogy. When I was married, I felt as though my husband was drowning and would indicate that he wanted to be rescued, but when I went to help, he'd start to pull me under water. At less fragile times, I felt as though we were on a boat that was sinking, and I was frantically bailing out the water, while my husband was either totally ignoring what was going on or was cutting a bigger hole in the boat's bottom.
Agreed
Submitted by DependentOrigination on
Definitely cutting a bigger hole in the boat's bottom, more often than not.
I always ask him why he would chose to solve a problem by becoming more of a problem. Why, when he has done something totally stupid, instead of admitting and apologizing, he does two or three more even more stupid things.
This month is a prime example. I just sit there, watching him shoot himself in the foot. Normal I would intervene, tell him its okay, and then get pissed off again, because he wouldn't reciprocate. At least the extreme nature of this months symptoms has forced me to break the cycle of him doing something that I would find hurtful, then me getting angry, and then him getting to avoid guilt by being angry at me for being angry.
He hasn't talked to me since Sunday night. I haven't seen him since Monday. I am doing the best I can to not call him, not react, not get sad, not get angry, not solve the problem.
Its hard. I want to feel better. I want him to feel better. But J is right. It isn't kindness to help someone bypass their problems. It is kindness to let him help himself. I have no intention of leaving right now, but he prefers to feel sorry for himself and wallow in his abandonment issues and distract himself with ridiculous things then get up and fix his problems.
I think I am going to read both of Melissa's books and also get the codependency book. Should keep me distracted while I am waiting for him to get his head out of his own ass.
Deleted duplicate post
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
Deleted duplicate post.
Finding "The Relational Home" and "Tolerance of Affect"
Submitted by kellyj on
“It is not within the capacity of psycho-analysis entirely to spare the patient pain; indeed, one of the chief gains from psycho-analysis is the capacity to bear pain.” Sandor Ferenczi, 1928 "
I took this passage from an abstract on this concept of "Tolerance of Affect" which as I am seeing it....may be included with having ADHD or an inability to process painful emotions and being impulsive ie: low threshold of tolerance emotional lability especially "in the moment." Why I say especially in the moment...because I think...this applies to ADHD and not...some other disorder or personality defect as in a character or personality disorder.
I am applying this to what I learned from my T...directly relating this to my wife but more to her mother? As he said it to me "Bi-polar" diagnosis...is commonly misdiagnosed when in fact.....it's a character disorder instead. My wife's mother was diagnosed Bi-Polar and he actually went on to say there are different types of Bi-polar...one of them being Uni-polar or having one consistent mood....that stays that way for very long periods of time instead of swinging back and forth between manic and depression?
But as he said this to me and from what he's seen as the results as in my wife...and from what he's heard which enough for him to question this...as he said "Her mother was a Fucked up individual....no doubt." And I would have to agree with him.....no doubt in my mind what so ever with that...being the only diagnosis to go on?
But the one biggest element or component to my wife that differs from her mother...is a willingness to change...and wanting to very badly but without the seeming awareness or means to overcome her own challenges....but also seeing change happen over time. The one thing that m wife admits openly...is she struggles with being impatient and this is where "Tolerance of Affect" really comes into play? What I see is that my wife can see her own impatience at times....but has no ability to know what to do about it or know how to change that within herself.
In my own efforts to be more compassionate to her and her challenges...in the face of the disrespect that I feel so often fro her because of it.....I am faced with learning how to deal with my own needs for immediate gratification...and put those on hold while at the same time...trying to be more compassionate, understanding, and more reassuring / validating to her....in face of my own frustrations along these same lines. My wife is....of the type.....who does not respond well to clinical diagnosis or technical data the same as I do...and this hits a nerve and with that I think.....a lot of cognitive dissonance....which is the pain that is being referred to here.
I have my pain...and she has hers. As I experience hers...and how this is thrown back at me which only causing me more pain on top of my pain already.....there is is thing referred to as "the relational home"...where these painful feelings need to go. And as I am seeing this more clearly now......my wife has no relational home for her feelings...and why she carries them around all the time in the form of emotional pain and cognitive dissonance as a more chronic form of insecurity and self loathing and shame.
As I glanced through this paper...it suggest to me one thing....with my wife, in order to reduce the effect this has on her...what I do with my own tolerance of affect...is key since I have mine...and then mine with her both at the same time. As it referred to in the article as "feelings about feelings" when these feelings are uninhabited ( without a home )...pulling the concept of "catastrophic thinking" or catastrophizing means that these uninhabited feelings are running amock ......and running away with themselves to there final and most extreme end of the line? Like a run away train...that finally cashes into the barricade when the train runs out of track..and everyone on board dies in each case? To the worst..and most devastating possible conclusion...in all things as a chronic way of seeing things?
And this is exactly what I'm thinking about? Is protecting a person like this...from feeling painful feelings the best approach....and as it appears...the answer is NO.
Being NICE....and protecting them from painfully feelings...appears to be just the opposite of what needs to be done here but what to do and how to do this...is the only question that remains?
What also came from this in my T's office...was me telling him that this thing that my wife does where she interrupts me mid-sentence..or tries to "block me" from saying things sometimes....is her subconsciously stepping in to prevent herself...from hearing anything that will cause her pain or to have cognitive dissonance which is all well and fine except for one thing. As he said this on one hand...he also said.....
"She "muzzling" you. And that is exactly what it feels like. Like someone slapping a muzzle on you...to keep you from saying what you want to say which is a very effective way of getting you to "shut up." He also went of to say in the same sentence...that this is totally disrespectful on my wife's part...and I would also have to agree. Just like a dog.....which is exactly what it feels like to me? This is not only unacceptable behavior...but it's simply boorish and ill mannered to say the least? All of these things are true....without a doubt...and the concept of idea of someone muzzling me.....does not sit pretty with me...one tiny bit. At the very least...it's controlling and manipulative....at the bare minimum.
In fact....the sole reason I came to this forum in the first place...was to deal with my own anger and losing my temper.....but in light of what I just said.....what I was angry about...was being "muzzled" and this as you can see....is justifiable yet no excuse on my part...to lose my temper of it?
When I have said before in quoting the immortal words of Frank Zappa....."Women, you can be an asshole too....don't pretend you don't got one on the bottom of you." This....is exactly what I am talking about. "Muzzling"...is not only a disrespect....but it's total... "Asshole Behavior"....no doubt what so ever? Speaking in those terms...and calling a "spade a spade"....no matter who does this on their end? ( mini me....oh yes!! )
But none of this...gets me anywhere with my wife or getting to a place of some understanding between us and since my wife seems not to understand this herself and why she does these things....I am trying better to understand her..so I can be more compassionate to her challenges and not take these things personally...while at the same time....put my own needs for immediate gratification aside so I can be more patient with her instead. This way.....I can see the big picture and see this for what for what it really is in reality.....instead of seeing my wife as an "asshole" which without any question...I could easily do and I would not be wrong. And HOW !!!
But seeing my wife as an asshole...because she "muzzles me"....and seeing it like she is treating me like a dog or an animal because of it...serves no one and certainly not me even if I am absolutely in my right to feel this way...and no one could question that 'muzzling" another human being no matter what their excuse is for doing it and no matter what I have done on my part to justify doing this for any reason imaginable.....or as to why they might do this? You cannot use any means to explain or justify this behavior in anyway...that changes it from say that "muzzling" is not total "asshole behavior"...and unquestionably...disrespectful and unacceptable on every level. None. She's dead in the water on that one...hands down.
But again...this serves no one to think in these terms and it does nothing to instill any means of finding resolution to this except just throw more gas on the fire. This is why...finding the real reason behind this and not use my own hurt and angry feelings to explain it....give me that relational "Home"...tio put my own feelings into...so I can file it under " not personal "....move forward in stride...without going anywhere?
I have a home so to speak...for my body in the physical.....having a "Relational Home" for my feelings...is my problem if I don't have one for mine myself...and they have anywhere to go?
In respect to this....you take you with you...no matter where you go If I...don't have a Home for my feelings.....moving to another town won't do anything to fix this problem? That's my personal problem...not my wife's in this case even if she's being an asshole?
J
http://icpla.edu/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Pariser-M.-Affect.pdf
Yes, I understand your
Submitted by honeyblonde on
Yes, I understand your thoughts and perspective and for the most part I'm in total agreement. No, I don't know how to be in a relationship like this and not be affected negatively. Other than not caring or not communicating, not partnership and basically ignoring him completely, which is not the life I want, I do not know how to live healthy and happy in a situation like this.
I made a mistake and I married the wrong person. I accepted a proposal when I had doubts and I made a commitment to someone who wasn't committed to me in the same way, and I trusted someone who didn't deserve my trust. I had expectations that my partner was unable to meet or even understand. All of these are my responsibility.
I still struggle with my mistakes in the situation, wasting my own time, letting myself get hurt daily, but I'm satisfied with my decisions to correct what I can now and move forward... "Taking me with me" and not continuing to be a victim.
I would have have stayed forever. I would have forgiven all of it, IF there was movement in the right direction and a partnership... But in this case, there wasn't.
It's Hard Honeyblonde
Submitted by kellyj on
I was married for a brief and unfulfilling time once before the first time I was married ( on paper only )...which ended badly ( wife ran off with another man out of the blue ) before my second official marriage which really was a real marriage and the one I refer to as my ex wife that actually lasted over 12 years.... ( and I knew her before that for several years ) who I considered a close friend even before we started dating......
Where I had so many doubts and bad feelings about...to the point I was sitting in the church on my wedding day, and knowing deep down that it was a mistake but I went through with it anyway because I felt like I would be letting everyone down and I had no choice if that weren't to have happened. In reality...the only person I let down was myself and I knew it then...but was too much in denial to admit it too myself to stop it. I know the feeling ? If your heart isn't in it...and you can't commit with everything you've got then this is what I am saying about being honest and kind and being somewhat selfish on my part in referencing that to you earlier. It was selfish of me...in that I couldn't be honest with myself and everyone including the woman I married as well. It wasn't fair to deceive everyone and pretend just to be considerate or thoughtful as I thought? That's what I told myself at least but it wasn't the truth. In some ways I can't blame this woman for running away even though...I can't take any responsibility for the fact that she had more or less....given me an ultimatum to marry her or she was going to break up and move on and I was a fool for allowing that to happen. I can't blame her....for my allowing her to rope me in like that..and not stand up and say no I'm not sure or I'm not ready....and that part was the little voice inside me saying it was the wrong thing to do but I was in Love.....what can I say?
The thing about that little voice inside you ( or me? ) It was trying to tell me something but I didn't listen? This was my failure in all of it...and none of that would have happened if I had listened to myself and done what I felt was right...instead of listening to everyone else...and doing what was wrong? I think if I was giving any advise to you in how to proceed? I'd listen to that little voice and not me or anyone else? Only you know what is right....or what is wrong for you.....no one can do that for you at the end of the day?
That's just it. The only person you can really blame or put fault on is you...if you aren't following yourself first...and listening to yourself ( or not )...which only leads to betrayal.....of yourself. The hardest part in all of this I think....is actually listening to yourself and doing the right thing....instead of worrying about what anyone else will think....or worrying about letting everyone else down...instead of putting yourself first in situations like this ....and actually being honest about the way you really feel? You actually have to be that brutally honest with yourself though....before you can do that with everyone else and it's so ironic that doing the right thing in this case....is so painful and so difficult to do sometimes?
In hindsight? ( or rather insight for you now? a little crystal ball work for you coming from a different sources from the future with me looking back...via the internet? LOL ) What was hard...and what would have been a brief and and painful thing to do...to confront what I was so afraid of and speak up for myself and what I felt was right? Which would have dissapointed a lot of people, it would have upset a few more on top of it...and it would have probably ended my relationship with the woman I was in Love with ( which on her part.....really wasn't worthy of what I had to offer anyway? I would have never in a million years...run off with another woman like she did with me? I've never cheated in my marriage and I can at least chalk that up to my own will power in doing the right thing even when I was tempted and I don't have anything to regret there for myself only..... in that case since it was my own boundary that I would have been betraying and I would have had to live with that ever after? For me....a real promise from the heart was more important than betraying myself in that case and this is not to saying or implying that someone else for their own reasons is wrong or bad for making their own choices there either? ( not judgment in other words and no condescension inferred? )
But in respect to betraying myself already by marrying this woman in the first place? That second betrayal or not cheating for example....was more me just trying to make up for my own betrayal in the first place...so I wouldn't have to do it again a second time and feel any more guilt than I did already? That was almost like putting a band aid on it....and calling myself "Good"...for not cheating in respect to the first marriage which you might even look at just more denial and more telling myself....I was a good person for not cheating while in the midst of all that self betrayal and self deception that I was living with on a daily basis already? Know what I mean?
If you are going to be brutally honest with yourself...and all roads lead back to you no matter what you do.....the hardest part ironically...is doing that much right from the beginning...and not telling yourself these lies? The BIGGEST LIES....are the one we tell ourselves anyway? All other lies we tell other people......emanate from that one? There's no "free lunch" as they say?
It was my choice, my decision and me....going through with what I shouldn't have gone through with and I can't blame anyone for that? But I have forgiven myself and my first wife too since I was the one who made that mistake....no one put a shotgun to my head and hog tied me at the alter.....you know? LOL
J
Wows
Submitted by DependentOrigination on
I read this for the first time on Tuesday and it really shook me to the core.
I tried to do your exercise. I sat there and tried to phrase my leaving statements only with "I". Not with you.
I am not cut out for this. I am not strong enough to handle being with someone with ADD. I am sorry. I made vows. I was wrong. I can't keep my commitment. I failed. Me. Not him.
It was a hard night. A sobbing uncontrollably in the bathroom by myself for an hour so I wouldn't disturb anyone else.
It is true. He is pretty happy with his life (although I look at it and think - wow, Britney Spears). He would be happiest if I just accepted him as is. I am the one with the problem when he chooses everyone else over me. When he says he will show up and doesn't. When he calls me 17 times after pissing me off so I answer thinking it is an emergency and he is just "checking in" to see if it is okay that he takes off to another weekend long course this month. And then when I be the bigger person and tell him, I won't stand in the way if he goes, he ignores some pretty meaningful and important texts, phone calls and conversations. When he gets up in the morning and just leaves. No kiss good bye. No telling me where he is going and when he is coming back. . No "Hey, I am leaving. I love you. I have to go somewhere. I will be back by noon. " When he tells me I am being unreasonable when I get upset about it.
You are right. There was a voice in my head, SCREAMING, "don't do it, don't do it" when I married him. I ignored that voice. I betrayed myself.
As you know, my coping mechanism in conflict has been to leave. Maybe I married an ADD husband so I could learn patience, self love, self awareness, delayed versus reactive responses. Maybe I married an ADD husband so I could leave again.
I don't know, I was pretty sad Tuesday night, learning that on Monday (when he said he was working, so he couldn't go climbing with me) he went to play games with some mutual friends of ours. Your post destroyed me.
On a positive note, I have matured somewhat. Not only did I commit to a house, a husband, a life, I also committed to a career job, good or bad, working with the bad, to make it good. And as of last week, I got what I wanted, a reduction in clinical work, so I could do research. It took four years, plenty of patience, plenty of working within the system, plenty of negotiation, but I did it. Maybe my marriage will be the same way. It is definitely the long game.
And I am learning. I don't wait for him at home anymore. I do what I want and what I need to do, instead of filling my weekend trying to capture as much of his time and attention as possible before he disappears into the ADD ether again. I am climbing again. I am going to the gym. The other day, when he said he would walk me to the store, and then disappeared into the bathroom (his safe place, I think a holdover from his time with many young children), I walked to the store myself. Because normally, I would wait, and wait, and wait for him as there is always some excuse, some delay, something that will just take "5 minutes" and then I am stressed out, pissed off, and behind schedule.
Thank you, J, as always, for your unique perspective and your ongoing assistance. I really appreciate your knowledge sharing.
Thanks D.O.....Unique? LOL I'll Take That an Run With It!! LOL
Submitted by kellyj on
Now..since you said this...I'll go back to what I said earlier about the hardest part about any of this: "doing something at the beginning, before any of this ever happened? "
What I'm saying specifically, succinctly and to the point: everyone does this, but as I have found in particular, having ADHD and being impulsive all my life...if there was ever a truer statement about ADHD in itself....I can't think of one more fitting or what that would be!! LOL Really!! lol
And if I were to give any advise to someone who has ADHD....I'd say...."think first...before you leap!! " LOL Or bring up the old adage that my mother use to say to mr all the time...."just because Billy...jumps off a cliff...doesn't mean you have to." lol What she didn't seem to understand back then....that Billy, had nothing to do with this!! LOL. She could have figured that out if she had just noticed that none of the other kids on my block were climbing up on the roof of their own house and jumping off it and thinking this was fun? LOL My mother ( having ADHD herself ) was doing that thing..trying to find someone else to blame and Billy was as good as anyone I guess?
So speaking with a little authority on this subject ( ah hem )....what I have come to find through actually doing something about managing my symptoms better....there is ony one way to do this and that really is to think first...before you leap. Sounds simple....but actually pretty hard to do? But because I had to do...and I have to do it all the time now as part of my daily routine....you do get better at doing this with a little practice..and because you get so practiced at it to avoid certain things in the first place....you come to this realization in a very real way, and then once you do.....you realize.."gee...this works in everything...ADHD or not? And then realize and notice...everyone else who isn't doing it either...and then you realize that this is not just related to ADHD but to everyone because it applies to everyone just the same? Just a little more so with people who have a problem with being impulsive like me!! LOL
You know...as I was reading you go through this process and actually come to this conclusion yourself ( good for you by the way....Kudos, to everything you said here )....I also just had another realization within everything you said...that I can apply to every single person who comes here in conflict...and is not sure what to do like yourself? Ready of not....here it comes...LOL
The only real conflict....really truly in reality....is in your own head? Think about it...if ( we as in everyone )...were to go through life on daily basis..and resolve any and all conflicts we've had with anyone, period....right then in our own heads no matter what it's about....think it through...work it out..and come to our own understanding of it and then resolved it right then and there.....in that very second before we ever said anything or even opened our mouths...we would all be perfect....and never be angry, never be hurt, and never do or say anything wrong ever or lose control of our emotions ever...because we would have successfully processed all this all the way through right there in the split second...and we've never be upset, worried, concerned or afraid of what we don't know ( or the offending party )...because if we did that perfectly in every case imaginable.....we would look at who ever was doing the offending and go....pass!!! And then walk away!! LOL
I thought of this when you brought up your pattern of leaving when things get too hairy for you in the past and then applying that to this idea? Of course....if we could do that perfectly everywhere we go.....we'd never be in the position of having to walk away in the first pace right? We would have walked away right at the beginning ONCE!! Instead of walking away 1,000's of time by not doing it ONCE...right at the beginning when we said...."pass!!". LOL
I'll fill you in on a little secret here in the "ins and outs" of going through the process of getting on top of these ingrained habits whether in "the thinking"...or the "doing" part. Actually...the "not doing part" more like it?
In everything across the board like this? And why it's so hard or takes so long to change even ONE..of these bad habits related to ADHD? It's because there is always a time delay...between the action and the thinking...with a big gap....in between? That's what "impulse" is. First there is the impulse....and then there is the action ( Billy jumping off the cliff )....and then after Billy has already smacked his head face down in the ground when he landed....the thought that maybe he shouldn't do it.....registers but only after it's already too late!!! LOL Meanwhile...Billy has already crashed and hit the ground...and then finally that message comes through to his conscious mind...because of that time delay and goes...."Ding". ( oops )
Seriously. This is exactly the problem and the problem is in the relay center in the brain...( executive function )...which account for the hold up and that time delay. Which is why the out bursts of anger. Which is why the missing things or not noticing things. which why..."shit comes out of our mouths" sometimes that is totally off the wall or totally disrespectful to you on the receiving end? Which is why just about anything and every thing you could ever think up that you don't like on the receiving end of it....because it does come eventually..but always after the fact?
And the amount of time it takes to close that gap....is dependent on a lot of things and one of them...is raw emotions or difficult ones that take longer anyway....especially if they are still...."in transit" and haven't arrived yet? lol
" When he gets up in the morning and just leaves. No kiss good bye. No telling me where he is going and when he is coming back. . No "Hey, I am leaving. I love you. I have to go somewhere. I will be back by noon. " When he tells me I am being unreasonable when I get upset about it."
I will almost guarantee....in fact, I will lay money on it ( because I experience this now with my wife when she is getting ready to leave or to leave and go to work. You can't say one word to her and tell her anything right then in that 15 minute window going to work in the morning. If I try she get really short..or says..."you always want to talk to me when I getting ready to leave for work."
Forget about me doing anything in the past here. Forget about my long winded posts here and mu round about way of saying things many times. Forget about the fact that I have ADHD and just focus on my wife's ADHD for a moment a moment not mine. ( lol )
My response to her saying that is a definitive...NO!!!! lol I might want to say..." what time are you coming home?"....or....."don't forget....(fill in here)"....and she'll say that. She is so much thinking about where she is going and all that she has to do to just get there like...."back out of the driveway and not get hit by a car"....as just one example...it's literally all she can think about in that moment because her RAM ( random access memory ) is completely full!!!! lol
By the time she actually pulls in the parking lot at work...parks the car, and starts walking inside work.....just about then....the things that were happening when she was walking out the door or anything I said of did or even anything she said or did at the moment....is finally just catching up to her....just then. I absolutely guarantee it....because its the same with me.
BUT....because this is exactly what happens with me....and because I finally came to this conclusion a long time ago with the help of my T n getting practiced at intervening my own thoughts and emotions...and realized this was what the problem was....I started the painstaking process....of stopping Billy from jumping each time he came to the edge....and each time he jumped....that delay got shorter. One nano second at a time...but it got shorter.
So every day....Billy gets up and jumps off that cliff again ( but now with this awareness of this )...and each time he does it...that delay shortens on nano second each day. It's definitely on a learning curve...so the time delay shortens but so does the process which starts to snow ball. And now the thought is very quickly...starting to catch up to beat the impulse at the pass? Now the thought...is coming to Billy...while he's still falling and hasn't hit the ground yet? And it gets shorter and shorter with each jump?
Finally....after ??????....many jumps off the cliff.....Billy is standing there on morning...and he starts to step and then stops before he jumps...because that thought....finally got there in time...before he leaped off that cliff. Finally.
But here's the deal. Once you done this once in one thing....you learn you can do it again with everything else...and then go through that same pain staking process again....with something else? Eventually...this process itself get pretty easy to do..and now the time it takes to do other things like this gets easier all the time. Eventually.....what was hard...becomes easy and those time delays across the board start to happen all the time with not that much effort.
And in each thing or each symptom your trying to intervene....once the thought arrives at the same time...in the moment like it should.....( like most other people ).....now no one says anything to you anymore....because the problems that this cause for everyone else....aren't there anymore?
It's like climbing a mountain...and always looking upward in that direction....that you don't realize how far and how high you've climbed...until your almost or already there and once you turn around and look back you go Holy Shit!! Those people look like ants down there!!! I've climbed a few big mountains in reality ( over 10,000 ft ) and this is exactly what it feels like when you do that. Holy Shit!!! LOL
So now.....for me....if I were your h....and I'm walking out the door? I'd give you a big hug and kiss...tell you to have a good day...remind you of what ever...and then walk out the door just like I try and do with my wife now? LOL I say try...because she is where you H is now....and I'm not doing that anymore!!! LOL
And once you finally get that place and stay there long enough....you never even have to thin about it again aside from the times when you're really stressed....the same as it is for you and everyone else in those few a rare times? No one is perfect you know? You me and everyone else on the planet....do this...once in a blue moon? That's normal...to have a slip..or brain fart and everyone has those? My too....I have those moments too plus my ADHD moments but I can really tell the difference now since I have become that authority in this process because I've been doing it for so long!! lol
In fact....I might even say....I could possibly be better than the average bear...in this process itself...because most who don't have ADHD...never have to go through this to that degree on such a constant basis...just to be more or less....normal like everyone else?
It's very anticlimactic let me tell you!!! lol You spend all that time and energy learning how to do it..and you finally get that time delay down to 0 ( at the top of the mountain )....and by that time...other people have stopped being annoyed with you..and have gotten use to not jumping off the cliff anymore....that they hardly notice??? lol You can't prove a negative right? When you stop jumping off the cliff anymore...people stop worrying about you don't it and they stop focusing on you and stop paying attention to what you not doing any more..and so when you finally get it down with no time delay...it's a rather Ho..Hum...event for all conserved aside from you!!!! LOL
I am not embellishing or making this up by any means I can tell you!!! LOL It is exactly what has happened..but also saying...by that time...your just happy you got there and the only validation you really need is knowing you won't have to go through that again!! And HOW!!! LOL
So to see your H are a fixtutre and no ability to change....or even if tries to change....you aren't noticing those nano seconds each day coming off that delay...but I'll bet....if you saw him and if he says he's really trying....if you put a stop watch on hm if you could isolate just one thing he's working on....I'll bet it would happen a minute or two faster...each time he failed but saying...failing a little less or a little fewer as time goes along? If you were to clock him without his awareness...and just pay attention to just this one isolated thing....in the period of a month...two months...and even a year possibly....you notice the delays...or the number of failures what ever they are...getting fewer..and further between?
In fact....."getting fewer..and further between"....will eventually be non existent...and but by that time you'd have gotten tired of putting a stop watch to him.....and would probably hardly notice?
This is where I can speak with some authority because this exactly the way it happens. I notice this a lot more than anyone else? It is very anticlimactic...but it doesn't matter by that time anyway? Se la vie. That's the way the ADHD ball bounces. LOL
J
I'll take it.
Submitted by DependentOrigination on
Although... my husband has no diagnosis of ADD, has no interest addressing ANY issue between us, no interest in addressing the trail of broken hearts, of lost jobs, of missed opportunities. It's just me, being angry, being unreasonable. Maybe he is working on the nanoseconds. He is infinitely better than the 6 month to 2 year mark. If he is working on it, he isn't verbalizing it.
We will see. I always want my solutions 5 minutes before their even is a problem...
Thank you, J
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Thank you for so many insights in how your ADHD works, and your reports of what you've tried and how you've succeeded in living well. One of the topics that comes up again and again on the board isnj personal dignity. To operate from one's own center, that one trusts IS worthy, that it is all right to be who we are. "We" including both board members with ADHD and board members without it. Your posts always convey that dignity that you have to me.
Your remark late in your post that change, especially if it's internal change of mind or habit, may look like no change is happening, but may in fact be happening inside the ADHD person is a shout out for ADHD people, never to believe them done with growth just BECAUSE they have ADHD. It warmed my heart to read you write that. If there's a decision to not try, deny, hide...etc it comes from something else, not the ADHD, a something else that a person without ADHD could have, too. It is so terribly important to both people with ADHD and people without it who live with someone who has it to be accurately making these assessments, is it due to our biological toolkits and so needing one kind of response, or is it changeable, replaceable with a different attitude or way of doing things? I'm so glad you spoke up about the impact of executive functioning on changing habit.
This passage below helped me tremendously, to think of possibility at home with my husband. I'll quote you, then ask a question about a detail of what you wrote
.
In everything across the board like this? And why it's so hard or takes so long to change even ONE..of these bad habits related to ADHD? It's because there is always a time delay...between the action and the thinking...with a big gap....in between? That's what "impulse" is. First there is the impulse....and then there is the action ( Billy jumping off the cliff )....and then after Billy has already smacked his head face down in the ground when he landed....the thought that maybe he shouldn't do it.....registers but only after it's already too late!!! LOL Meanwhile...Billy has already crashed and hit the ground...and then finally that message comes through to his conscious mind...because of that time delay and goes...."Ding". ( oops )
Seriously. This is exactly the problem and the problem is in the relay center in the brain...( executive function )...which account for the hold up and that time delay. Which is why the out bursts of anger. Which is why the missing things or not noticing things. which why..."shit comes out of our mouths" sometimes that is totally off the wall or totally disrespectful to you on the receiving end? Which is why just about anything and every thing you could ever think up that you don't like on the receiving end of it....because it does come eventually..but always after the fact?
And the amount of time it takes to close that gap....is dependent on a lot of things and one of them...is raw emotions or difficult ones that take longer anyway....especially if they are still...."in transit" and haven't arrived yet? lol
Pure gold, to me at least, J. I've noticed that delay, and that at least for some matters, my husband's response will come later or much later. I'd like to ask about what all can be going on in that delay. You mentioned emotions as a possibility. Do new thoughts about entirely different matters intrude in the delay before something is executed or recognized?
Best to you,
Now
"The Hole" = Self Sabotaging Behavior
Submitted by kellyj on
D.O. & Honeyblonde,
I agree...."the hole" is a really good analogy. I can relate to this well myself and I can also relate another way of seeing the same thing in a comparison.
The Middle East and "The Problem"?
The problem? We wouldn't be there if it weren't for the fact that "white skinned folk" from other countries going back to the Crusades...have been invading and squandering the resources there for centuries and now were doing it again to protect our oil interests along with protecting Israel which again....there are people there who belong there as in Palestinians ( More Muslims who've lived there for thousands of years ) who again....have been at the mercy of those who have more power over them and .......there you go.
All those fighting tribes and the fact that the mentality and culture have kept the overall mentality there and throughout the region, at a very primitive ( raw, base level of thinking ). They got there own issues that have never been resolved and there is no easy solution or fix. So what do we do? We go in ...once again....in the name of "the war on terror" or to "protect the Victims" ie: "Israel"........at whose expense and at what cost? Gee...let me think about this for a micro second? How about....all the people who live there who are Muslims who suffer from this primitive mentality who are powerless to do anything about .....all the people who keep coming in to there sovereign country and keep Fucking with them....that's who? And why is that again? To protect OUR interests there which is to keep oil flowing into our country so it doesn't cause a financial collapse for us which is the threat and the fear if we don't do this?
I don't care what they say or which way you slice this....this is the reason for it and anything said to the contrary is a complete lie. You can't blame the people who live there for feeling the way they do....but at the same time in their own primitive minds, they see no other options than to fight back since they are fighting each other and have been in the same way for centuries with no resolution? They've dug themselves a hole so deep....they can't even see the bottom yet and they're still digging? Fighting each other for tribal power and control is and has been a way of life for these people for thousands of years so when confronted with yet another adversary......what do you expect? They might hate each other in their own fight together...but as a group, they hate us even more because we've just jumped into there hole where we don't belong as far as they're concerned and we've got all the power and they don't?
What would expect their reaction to be? Anything different? I think not? This is not to say....we have no right to protect ourselves from terrorists...but the facts of the story and why this is happening....seems to easily be excluded and not considered when the benefits for us and protecting our own self interest over ride common sense when making them all out to be the bad guys and we're the good guys which were not? It's complete lie to say anything otherwise but it is what our leaders do with us. They can't say "we're going in to make sure we get oil and the ends justify the means?" In essence to this....they could say that....but that would not be justification enough and no one would go along with it if they did? So they lie and feed us a line a Bullshit and use....terrorists and Israel as a valid excuse since that somehow sounds better and makes it all right? We're the hero's of this story and there to fight for "Freedom" of these poor down trodden victims and the persecutors of "Jews" ( like Hitler )....and we kill the "wrong doers" for the benefit of.....who again?
That's the point here I wanted to make. There is no "Good Guys"..."Bad Guys" here and we have a vested interest for ourselves as a country...HUGELY and obviously....that makes us complete hypocrites to say otherwise and we lose all credibility what so ever...by not saying the truth on all accounts. What we're doing...is climbing down into that hole with them and now we're part of their problems which have been going on for thousands of years and trying to "force them" into submission by means of punishing them as they see it and to a certain degree....they are right. That's the problem. You are NEVER...going to "win"....any made up "war".....whether it's on "drugs" or "terrorism" doing it that way I can assure you? ( Onward Christian Soldiers...Marching as to War!!!!! With the Cross of Jesus....Going on Before!!! What War are they talking about? Nothing like putting a "Bow" on it..and calling it "Good" ? Ha!
The fact of the matter is....There is NO Fucking War!!! That was just a line of Bullshit...from a folk song written specifically for "ordinary people " at the time. Ordinary as in "primitive" and "ignorant" people at the time compared to us now and what we know? ) It is the same primitive thinking that goes all the way back to the crusades and now....we're just doing it again and throwing gas on the fire which solves nothing but creating an entire following of ODD people who are willing to blow themselves all up to spite their own faces in opposition to "US"....the "bad guys" as they see it from the same primitive minds and primitive thinking that created this whole mess?
So the best thing we can possibly do then is to join them and climb down into their hole with them but just do it better they can with cooler weapons and more power in a means to gain control over them to protect our own self interests? I think not? There is no "good guys" or "bad guys" when everyone is dirty and doing the same thing? When everyone is deluded,lying and not speaking the truth and seeing the entire story in it's complete form....it's really easy to omit...the parts that don't serve you...and not consider that one self sabotaging behavior...doesn't not solve another one as the answer?
There is an answer or solution to fix the problem here...but primitive thinking is not one of them in my mind? It is a more round about and complicated process and that much requires more time and more dedicated effort to achieve...but flying planes half way around the world and bombing the crap out of people...may serve the immediate....but makes it worse in the long run for everyone concerned and only serves to keep the status quo exactly where it is.......indefinitely!!!!!
That's a lose / lose.....not a win / win right there IMHO?
J
PS Can you say.....Donald Trump boys and girls? I knew you could? ( spoken in character as Mr Rodgers lol ) "King of the Mud Pit"...or "Servant in the Palace?"...take your pick? ;)
I see your point
Submitted by DependentOrigination on
And this is something I have been thinking about myself. My husband is perfectly happy with his finances and his family dysfunction and having people be angry at him. He thinks its fine.
I am the one with the problem. So... I think the middle east is a great analogy.
If you disagree with leaving, with getting in the hole, then, what is the solution (long, complicated, etc.)?