There has been a lot of good discussions on the forum lately, with some very good research behind it...But, instead of looking at the effects of adhd on my marriage; I would like to pose this question. Do you and your spouse have different values?
I ask because on the surface it may seem that you agree on a lot...But, I find with my W, that one of the many major hindrances' in communication is we think (assume) we are speaking the same language. But in reality we are not. I have come to realize that even w/ the presents of blame and denial much of the impasse for us relates to different values...If two people have different values they can hear what they think is agreement, but in actuality your minds may be far to the right or left of each others. I know for us this happen's often, we think we covered something then we find out we have different understandings...Does adhd cause this? I think indirectly it can have some effect. But, it's not the primary cause of Values and Convictions...
I don't want to cloud this up w/ details, I just wanted to throw this out for consideration....Are you and your spouse's Values causing misinterpretation of assumed agreements?
C
C....Yes, a very good point....
Submitted by Zapp10 on
When I read your post I felt a ...yes!....and why is it so difficult to navigate a conversation when we are on the same page?
For me....I discovered that.... while we do have many common values and differing core values(which is to be expected and respected).....my H had "unusual" definitions of some of these.
So there we are, trying to have a dialog and the definition of "whatever" is appearing to NOT be the same in his mind as mine. I have to laugh because I have found myself running to look up the definition of sooo many words and phrases because I wanted to be sure of what the actual meaning was.....not to prove him wrong or me right....but to find the truth of it......and go from there. More times than not ...my H had a slight "twist" to his definition therefore,,,,we couldn't come to a "meeting" of the minds on values or ideas.
I, too, would like to know if ADD could be playing a part in this. He is a "lover" of words and uses ones that often leave me puzzled as a) I don't know it...so I educate myself or b) His use of a word appears to me "out of sync" with what he is conveying. I want to clarify that he NEVER talks condescendingly to me.....his manner of speaking is more factual, no inflection...no intimacy..flat... you know what I mean.....Also, because the topic of values is SO personal (individual) and is an integral part of relationship with ANYONE...it is one of the "keys" to a deeper, intimate relationship.
"Knowing" someone's heart is, to me, the height of intimacy. The very intimacy my H wants....that he "allows" the ADD to rob him of through denial.
Just my 2 cents, C and you have started my own "hamster wheel" to spin on this subject.
P.S on a final note I am going out on a limb....saying....I am fed up with EVERY word or thought being subjective in definition. A bird...is a bird, cancer...is cancer....the truth....is the truth(whether it's mine or yours).....IT NEEDS TO BE HEARD....and RESPECTED and where you go from there.....will be based on.....a COMBINED knowing of each others self and mutual RESPECT in what ever the relationship is...friend, foe or marriage.
Zapp.....
Submitted by c ur self on
"Knowing" someone's heart is, to me, the height of intimacy.
Yes Zapp; I had this for 30 years; I am so thankful, and who knows, I may have it again.....My wife and I have a closer connection than it sounds and appears at times....Shame can close a person off, but, there is ONE who will take that shame on himself and give us Love, Power and a sound mind in it's place....
Blessings
C
The value of partnering
Submitted by jennalemone on
It seems to me after 40 years that this is a part of our relationship that is the most "not-working". He seems (I have to draw conclusions from his actions because he refuses to talk about anything but jokes and sarcasm) to value his own personal pleasure, leisure, ego, entitlement, independence more than anything. I have had respect for the third partner in all good marriages.....the marriage itself. I was willing to compromise for the good of the family so much that I am now a compromised person....not respecting myself. H is someone who should not have had children and wife to care for. He only wants the benefits of family, not the things you need to do to make that family a good, strong, growing together family. He has said so many times to me verbally, literally...."If you don't like it, you know what you can do!" I am only now realizing how little he is willing to offer. I am realizing how little respect he has had for me all these years. I am not permitting myself to feel the hurt of his contrariness so much any more. I am just watching and accepting and sorting things out. I am starting to give up my own denial, hope and face the facts and see who he really is without the "benefit of the doubt, rose-colored" glasses I have had on all these years.
But to be fair to me, in the days when women did not work while kids were young or worked primarily part time and took care of children and house, there was a financial dependence factor. After the kids were in school, most of us then started work full time and still had the full responsibility for kids, house, food. There are lots of us who had to overlook painful, unequal marriages because in a divorce, in those days, the women were expected to take the kids and work full time, paying sitters without the benefit of a long term employment wages or work status. Many of us were stuck and had to use coping skills to make things OK in our own minds. The men's lives would not change much in a divorce other than having visitation now and then and paying some child support - which depending on the wage of the husband was not enough to pay the sitters that would be needed full time for a working mom with full custody. The inequality is staggering and makes many of us angry to this day. It was a matter of "Whadayagonnadobadit" attitude from the spouse who had little values of love/family/partnership/sharing. My H who was a traveling salesman had the best of both worlds. He lived like a bachelor but came home late at night to wife and children, home, food on the table. Now he has a wife who does not trust him and is angry with him. He uses the coping tools of remembering things much different than they were...creative memory... so that he doesn't have to face the way it really was.
Jen I truly understand....
Submitted by c ur self on
(I have to draw conclusions from his actions because he refuses to talk about anything but jokes and sarcasm) to value his own personal pleasure, leisure, ego, entitlement, independence more than anything.)
This makes it so difficult; when a husband and wife cannot have those calm intimate moments of sharing...When a spouse is closed off, and refuses to trust and be vulnerable in the relationship. It can still be a committed one, but to me in many ways it will always just be a surface one, without depth....It seems to me that our awareness of this fact keeps those of us who would choose a more intimate relationship dangling with desire...It keeps us hanging and teetering, not wanting to give up hope...
This is what I'm TRYING to do in my marriage; accept the difference's and if we spend our time going seperate ways then so be it....I've had to lay down my expectations, but, I also have to protect myself, her, and our relationship. Acceptance of reality, in many instances with us, means I can't be with her like I would like....If she is going to live in denial and seek to control every aspect of our relationship...Then I want be present....And as much as I hated that in the beginning; Im learning to be at peace with it now.....
C
Dangling
Submitted by jennalemone on
"When a spouse is closed off, and refuses to trust and be vulnerable in the relationship. It can still be a committed one, but to me in many ways it will always just be a surface one, without depth....It seems to me that our awareness of this fact keeps those of us who would choose a more intimate relationship dangling with desire...It keeps us hanging and teetering, not wanting to give up hope...
C, That sums it up very well.
Ditto Jenna, C
Submitted by Zapp10 on
I KNOW my H is going through a "conflicting/realizing" time these past couple of months. He is like a fish flopping out of his environment. I am on heightened alert to watch my words and steps. I want to be supportive and don't want to cause him additional stress. Once again, I am trying to breath and not walk on eggshells.....I am very weary of that road....
What you said about a spouse being closed off( for whatever reason) speaks to the "heart" of marriage. Thank you for expressing it so simply and reverently.
Speaking in Terms That I Can Understand...Zapp
Submitted by kellyj on
And in terms of "dangling desire"...(and apologizing up front but it's just right there in my face lol ). I can apply this too sex and aging as a man. LOL. It's really good that your recognize this too. I see my wife in a state of confusion...and what we ran into with sex is exactly the reverse of this. She was married to a much younger man before...(me too in terms of a woman) and she had never run into something that many (if not most men) learn to live with a deal with that there is just no getting around sometimes along with a whole lot of rejection. That drive that NON mentioned is not one you can easily ignore as a man especially when you're young. I can remember a few times walking down the hall in school with my Pee Chee held in front of me when my body seemed to have a mind of it's own with very little control of that aspect.LOL My emotional state was irrelevant...to my desire to have sex during that stage of my life!! lol I was ready...any time there was an opportunity no matter what condition I was in whether physical or emotional. It didn't matter. I was "born ready" as they say.....when ever my girlfriend or willing participant was during that period of time. Not to say I had that opportunity either....but I was ready none the less. My desire was there pretty much 24/7....and more often than not....I wanted to and my wife or girlfriend at the time did not only because I did. In fact....I never said no or didn't want to ...that was the point.
And since nature is not so nice to us in all ways imaginable....I've come to a place where I think I must know what it was like for those women at the time. Not in terms of function.....but in terms of not wanting to or having the desire and it's more contingent on my mood and physical and mental state.
Like I said...my wife before she met me...was dating and had some brief relationships with men who were older and were in the same boat as I am. She had never been turned down for sex before in her life when she was married and was use to saying no and fighting off advances as a normal condition of living with a man. Suddenly now she's in the same place men are when they are young and this did not sit well with her. Being told No and feeling rejected hits on the same insecurities that men have had to live most of their lives surrounding being rejected and having to deal with a drive or desire that just won't quit. And in the same cruel way....nature served me up with the same thing but now in reverse? If this is some kind of practical joke that nature plays on us....I thinks it our expense!! lol
I've heard this before with other men and women so I know I'm not alone here in saying this...but when things get reversed and suddenly there you are....it's a pretty uncomfortable situation to be in when you haven't been there and it's not an easy conversation or subject that you would sooner avoid than talk about. For both people involved! lol Being closed off or avoiding this kind of conversation is a lot easier than dealing with it head on.
As it turned out for us.....we both found that the insecurities were more the problem...than the problem itself. Being closed off initially in that respect...was a way of protecting yourself from that kind of shame and embarrassment at the risk of having to confront this kind of thing. I think the same thing could apply to your H and my wife as well.
In respect to what is happening with your H....I get a picture that might be close if not exactly the same kind of thing going on as you described this for a different reason entirely. I think this is probably the case with my wife as well. Not wanting to talk about things...from either shame or embarrassment and being completely out of her comfort zone at times but not really being able to articulate it well at the moment.
I actually did use this example with her in trying to relate this to other things in a way to break the ice with her and get her to open up and that did serve to do this very thing to tell her I understood based on this idea of desire and drives which have nothing to do with you or anyone else unless they're there asking or pushing you for something.
I guess sometimes you do need to be an island unto yourself....as long as it doesn't stay that way for too long? In respect to how I felt when it came to the first time I didn't feel like having sex and my wife did....all I felt was pressure and being put of the spot. More pressure....certainly did not make that any better but I'm sure for most women out there....this might be a joke in thinking you might not understand? Thinking...not so much! lol
In terms of depth and wanting more in that respect....I'm in the same boat there too ( in respect to wanting something from my wife and her not wanting to talk about it)..... which is different than desire or drive and more to do with comfort zones I think. But I can imagine in the same way....putting pressure on is only going to make it worse not better. I'm learning as I go too. Waiting forever for that island to change and it never does however....I have nothing to offer unfortunately?
J
Values and/or Assumptions?: "Relativism" "Idealism" and "Mirth"
Submitted by kellyj on
"Specifically, individuals who assume that desirable outcomes will be obtained with the “right” action will generate higher idealism scores. Those individuals who endorse beliefs that exceptions to moral rules exist and that various aspects of a situation must be integrated in order to evaluate a situation accurately will generate higher relativism scores (Forsyth, 1980)."
http://digitalcommons.uri.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1006&context=p...
Are you and your spouse's Values causing misinterpretation of assumed agreements?
Yes, Definitely C....I see things through the lens of "relativism" and "mirth"...and my wife sees' things through the lens of "idealism" and..."this is no laughing matter" and these things of value are more serious and more concrete. Which is not to say....I don't take things seriously. On the contrary....I just see things differently...through a different lens....and speak the language of "relativism" and my wife speaks the language of "idealism." There is no right and wrong here....only what's different. As I see it.....assuming is really the problem here?
Relativism: the doctrine that knowledge, truth, and morality exist in relation to culture, society, or historical context, and are not absolute.
Idealism: the practice of forming or pursuing "ideals", especially unrealistically. "The idealism of youth" (in art or literature) the representation of things in ideal or idealized form.
2. Philosophy: any of various systems of thought in which the objects of knowledge are held to be in some way dependent on the activity of mind.
J
PS....I just read this article when I saw your question and I couldn't pass up the opportunity. I'm still taking that break...so I'm not going to respond for the time being but I did know the answer....at least up to this point.... for what's is worth for anyone else to consider also? Thanks for asking?:)
Idealism
Submitted by kellyj on
Ideal(s)
a person or thing regarded as perfect...."you're my ideal of how a man should be"
synonyms:perfection, paragon, epitome, shining example, ne plus ultra, nonpareil, dream
"no woman could be the ideal he imagined for himself" a standard of perfection; a principle to be aimed at.
"tolerance and freedom, the liberal ideals"
synonyms:model, pattern, exemplar, standard, example, paradigm, archetype, prototype;
"In formal axiology, Robert S. Hartman contended that being ideal means that something is the best member of the set of all things of that class. For example, the ideal student is the best member of the set of all students in exactly the same way that the ideal circle is the best circle that can be imagined of the class of all circles. Since we can define the properties that the ideal member of a class should have, the value of any actual object can be empirically determined by comparing it to the ideal.
The closer an object's actual properties match up to the properties of the ideal, the better the object is.
For example, a bumpy circle drawn in the sand is not as "good" as a very smooth one drawn with a compass. In the world in general, each particular object ought to become more like its ideal.
In ethics, by analogy, each person should attempt to become more of an ideal person, and a person's morality can actually be measured by examining how close they live up to their ideal self." Wikipedia
In the language of ideals.....the better you match up to the ideal....the better you are. What about ADHD? Are we "not as good"...and everyone else "is better" if our circle "appears" bumpy and not drawn with a compass looking at it from the outside viewing us? Thinking here....if Fabio or some sexy gorgeous person was your waiter....would the drink they served you taste any better?
Or possible....if the drink Fabio served you came with a little umbrella and a garnish made from curled citrus peels.....taste even better than that?
Or even possibly.....if the drink Fabio serves you , that comes with an umbrella and a garnish. while sitting outside in a Tropical beach setting while watching the sun set on the horizon....taste even better than that? Throw in a Louis Vuitton chair to sit on while your at it for good measure. lol
Or would that same drink taste the same if your ADHD spouse....set it down on the table in your kitchen ....served in a glass with a crack in it. No Fabio, no umbrella, no sunset, no tropical beach setting, no Lois Vuitton chair) and said....."there you go...just the way you like it." (which was made perfectly to order as they said )
Is this drink better....or not as good as the first drink?
The value......the drink has for you....is dependent on the ideal.....not how it tastes if you were to use idealism as the way to measure it's perfection.
The language of idealism..."is not as good"...."not good enough"...."better"....and "best"....if it's not perfect....... since perfection is the ideal when using idealism as a way to tell if something is..."good"....."or not good?" And there has to be an "ideal" to compare to in order to determine someone's value....by using this means to measure them in order to make that determination? Which is based primarily in how it appears and then making comparisons of the object or person in question?
The same would have to be true...if this is the same method of measuring your own value as a person as well. In every case...it requires a judgment which is based solely on you...the "judger" or "person judging" in order to make this determination.
That is....in an "idealistic" way of seeing things from an idealism perspective.
From a relative way of seeing this....if they made that drink with cheap well booze shot out of a mixing gun.....that drink is going to taste like crap..no matter who, where, how or when any of the criteria above changed or were different which is irrelevant to how it taste. No matter how hard Fabio would try and convince me that this drink was good.....I know if it taste good or not...by how it tastes period. A bad drink...is bad drink...no matter what.
Same goes for a really good drink made from good ingredients and mixed by hand at home and served in a cracked glass sitting at my kitchen table. That drink will taste better to me....no matter how it comes. Even in a paper cup brought to me by my dog with a little dog saliva on the rim. It's still going to taste better to me....that the one Fabio is pedaling.
That is..from a relative way of seeing things and using "relativism" as my means to determine if a drink is "good"...or...."not good."
You can't judge a book by it's cover....as they say? :)
J
PS....Whether I write it down here or think it.....I'm still going to think it anyway so I might as well write it down!! LOL Until next time....which is a relative thing.:)
This is half the battle J....
Submitted by c ur self on
So many married couples don't have this understanding that you do....If you and your wife, can share and study together these difference's and come to better understanding of each other than that's a good thing... And hopefully mutual respect will follow which is another step toward Acceptance of Reality!
PS...If her idealism leads to non-acceptance....You may need help...LOL
C
C....A Breakthrough
Submitted by kellyj on
Without going into the whole bloody story and all the why's, where's and how's. My wife and I had a really good talk about this very thing this morning when we were discussing the past event of our vacation on the boat. There may be a little hind sight involved on my wife's end (and a little of that creative memory that Jenna was talking about)....BUT.....as she said it " this vacation was all about my brother" in reference to something else entirely???
Her brother...was a second thought when we had discussed this vacation together months ago planned for August. The reason he was added and why he was invited in the first place was because he's having a rather serious operation but with very good prognosis. A routine but serious operation coming up in a matter of months. Okay...no problem.
But then....only a month and half ago....her brother comes to my wife and says he wants to go before his surgery (a little fatalistic I'm afraid )...so suddenly August become June which again was no problem.
And now this morning...my wife goes.."well, this vacation was about my brother and his operation and he was the main focus of the trip."
I stopped her and said..."Huh? We had planned this together before your brother was even invited? How do you figure?"
"Well....I told you several times that why we needed to change the date and you said Okay I wouldn't think I would need to explain that to you since that would seem pretty obvious to me if that were happening and you wouldn't need to explain this?" As she said it...that somehow I would just devine that somehow and not go off of what we talked about before her brother was even on the guest list...so to speak. That all of this was just a clear and easy to understand that this was now all about my brother since he was going to have this operation and all? And without saying it.....assuming he he going to die or course? More likely die....than live. Even though the odds are about 89-91% chance of survival by the statistics we looked up? As she said it...'it might be the last vacation I ever take with my brother."
Okay....somehow.......we jumped from A to Z.....and no one needed to tell me that?
Literally....everything that happened and all the conflicting confusion on my end at least....was simply because my wife assumed that somehow I would know exactly this situation...and how she felt...and how her brother felt...and feel the same way...because we changed the date to before his operation....instead of after?
As she said it without going into the details....her brother was guest of honor....like the birthday boy who's special day it was....and everything needed to revolve around her brother, his operation, and him and what he wanted.
It went from our (my wifes and my ) vacation....to her brother and her last days together, and she was making her brother "King for the Day"....all in one fell swoop...and no one informed me of this and I had no idea this was actually what was happening the entire time until my wife accidently slipped this tid bit of critical info out this morning which suddenly explained everything to me and why I felt more like Chauffeur and Tour Guide than it did like I was actually on my own vacation with my wife and her brother was just invited along to join us?
All I knew...was what she said. For face value. That we were changing the date to before...not after her brothers surgery. And she assumed I would know everything that I just said....by simply telling me that much and nothing more? She admits that this is all she said....but what she can't really grasp...is the part about how I just couldn't figure this A to Z part out by myself....or her need to explain that to me?
There you go C. We had a good talk about this one I can tell you. A good talk about how there is no way I will ever know that much without her explaining it to me...but more importantly....NOT to assume!! lol For crying out loud!!
I have a number of other issues that go along with her thinking on this...but for now...I learned a great deal from this...and how my wife thinks so I can be better prepared for the next time. This "idealism" thing is a huge part of the difference in how we think and approach things. That initself....explains a whole lot of things I can tell you. It's enough to figure her out and predict this ahead of time now just knowing that much and nothing else.
And no....in these moments...my wife will get a blank look on her face like she's not really understanding things...but when I explained it to her this morning...she didn't fight or argue. More just a look of surprise and bewilderment and not really getting it but certainly accepting what made sense and how I explained this to her. The problem is.....it will happen again if I'm not the one to predict this ahead of time since she's not going to predict how I think and see things which means....if I don't do it....she won't. She really cannot see things any other way...but she will if you tell her ahead of time and explain it to her?
Which means....I have to assume....she is going to assume...and then assume what she is assuming...so I can proceed accordingly from what she is assuming...and not telling me ahead of time? If that makes any sense? (which on paper...makes no sense at all!! LOL)
It is my understanding of this.....as the only thing that saving us sometimes! lol But that was a compliment C...and I appreciate it very much.
Thank you...and I hope you can use some of this too:)
I think I can take that break now...since I really do understand it now all said and done!! LOL
J
Communication J
Submitted by c ur self on
To me J; failure to communicate show's a lack of respect in a marriage relationship. Now saying that I do admit there are many hindrances' to communication. But, any time my life is so busy that I don't make myself available to communicate....Turn off Electronics and set aside everything that can cause distraction, and be responsible to communicate my feelings and to hear her feelings...
A person's hunger for self-entertainment, along w/ our hunger for information about anything we have an interest in makes (so much readily available because of TV and the Internet w/o self awareness and personal discipline to mange this, it's hopeless...) it so easy to abuse this critical part of marriage. To gain and come to mutual understandings.
I'm sure I do it at times, but, your story is not strange one to me...It's just one more thing that my W struggles with....Her life consumes her and she never stops to communicate...Her reality is to call me with 5 minutes to talk as she drives to work...And 90% on that time is to give me her thoughts on things....
Yep J, when we have these difference's because of our poor communication....All that is not seeing the Forest for the Trees.....The culprit is right there in the mirror...But, we can't walk away from the mirror and forget what manner of man we were just observing....:(
Blessings
C
Values and actions
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
C, you asked,
Are you and your spouse's Values causing misinterpretation of assumed agreements?
Sometimes. But sometimes the misinterpretation of what we agreed to happens because one or both of us is inattentive. We've had some situations like J went through with his wife, who came up with a whole new story that she expected to drive how they conducted their prior agreement, but didnt let him in on the story.
Back to values. My husband and I share core values, both the headlines and the definitions. We knew that about each other before we married. Of course we differ in our thinking, often. Your OP got me to realize something that, was just life I didnt notice it. My husband and I talk about values and their expression in action a lot...I hadnt noticed that. I think some of it is due to our ages, and our real worry about things happening nowadays in society at large, that were not going on in the past.
I think our own values are one of the few motors that impel us people to do anything. Actions show what the person really and truly values. Neither my husband nor I get an exception on that. He does things his way, and has got his own timing, but he does act on his beliefs, and I admire him for it.
Beleifs Turn Into Action..Locus of Control
Submitted by kellyj on
"He does things his way, and has got his own timing, but he does act on his beliefs, and I admire him for it."
NON.....I've been struggling (as you can tell) in searching for some explanation of my wife's behavior that defies me sometimes? And without the ability for her to explain herself.......TO.... her actions, or at least give me a modicum of information as to 'WHY" do you think or feel the way you do about this?" Or perhaps...."how did you come to that conclusion and what supporting evidence do you have in making this assertion or claim?" Either about something that already happened.......something that is happening now in the moment....or something that might possibly happen in the future that you are verbally saying.."this is what I'm going to do."
And since none of us are truly our "brother's keepers"....you got to rely or trust in something (believe something?) in order to choreograph your actions ahead of time...to account for someone else and what they are doing? The only real assumption you can make...is that there actions are not going to be exactly the same as your own whether they are in the same room with you....or half way across town? What I have been struggling to find....is some kind of reasonable, simple explanation as to why there seems to be a discrepancy....between those core values and beliefs that I trust in my wife implicitly as I've said......but in turn....have no faith or trust in certain actions/behaviors that my wife decides to do, that makes no sense to me at all? They make no sense since a) she can't explain herself to me and that only causes a fight if I push for some kind of explanation b) it's not what I would expect to see if it were me there doing it c) it appears to go directly against what she says or what might be expected when I use those same core values or any other means to tell me what I'm seeing so I can simply understand?
When she says..."I believe this"...on one hand and I see that what she believes is in line with what I believe as well (core values)....you might expect to see a certain behavior or expect to hear certain things that would support that belief by her actions...as you indicated with your H.
But when I see and hear conflicting, confusing or even Hypocritical actions or information coming from her that goes contrary to what I know is true about her.....either she's lying to me....or she is believes something that I'm just not privy too or aware of? Or perhaps she hiding something or keeping things close to her chest and not being forth coming and open about sharing things? Or is it something else?
Is this poor judgment? Lack of common sense? She been lying and does not really believe in the values she says she believes in which really do show in her action for the most part and for the most part....the end result is what you see which I also don't take exception to? That is...except for these exceptions that she cannot explain which have more to do with her actions and behaviors in the moment when she reacts to things and gets upset for no apparent reason (that I can see at the same time with her). On one hand...she extremely trustworthy...but her decision making process and the ability to tell me after the fact as to why she did what she did when it makes no sense at all is the very thing that causes me to question her. But if I question her....she will get defensive and this only creates a fight? But I need to know this ahead of time...so I can predict her and choreograph what I do....so we don't run into each other all the time and this is the very problem we run into more often that not.
The problem we have, that might differ from what C is running into with his wife (possibly?) is not from a difference in core values or not knowing what they are since I pretty much follow through with what I say I'm going to do....with a reasonable margin of human error and things just going wrong sometimes. Shit happens...as they say.
And just not paying attention (being inattentive) to changes or being on top of everything all the time is also part of just being unaware or not noticing things which also can account for why we don't always follow through according with everything just as planned? Or actually realizing things until it's too late to do anything about them?
Or maybe it's just this unilateral decision making tendency and not being very good at comminuting those things to other people in advance until after you already done those things but didn't consider the consequences of those actions and how they might affect other people even if they are right in line with those core values and that in itself...is not the problem ie: core values vs not considering the collateral effect on others even if it's the right thing....or possibly....understandable thing to do if it were just "you" doing it.
Speaking for myself here...this last possibility is something that I have really had to work on myself. I'll be preaching to the choir again ...to admit that my ADHD tendency is to act first...and think later....even if the action is exactly in line with my values and is not some defective way of decision making (a core personality or character defect )..or the action itself is not in question. That goes right back to "how you did it"...not so much the reasons "why" (relating to core values again)
Simply put, if I aks..."why did you do that?".....after the fact.....with an answer that makes sense to me and what I just witnessed.( in the here and now...this minute ) I can at least make sense of it and understand it even if it's not how I would go about it? That in itself...in pretty inconsequential to me anyway so I rarely have a need to question her on this much and pretty much don't. I don't really care one way or the other....until it effects me that is.
I don't care that it's different (right, wrong or indifferent ) as much as how it affects me in a negative way after the fact. How she does things...is less important than getting them done as long I can predict her ahead of time so we don't keep running into each other and not knowing how to head this off ahead of time? Core values and beleifs are not at issue here. I have no fears that what my wife does will have any negative consequences for me in the big scheme of things. I don't worry about that...and I have no fears that I can't trust my wife on these things. We really never disagree on the important aspects or decisions we come to together as long as I know what she is doing and have that modicum of understanding ahead of time. A modicum of understanding....not a itinerary list of everything she does planned out for me in advance like the itinerary for our vacation for example which she did in advance and that was great. Kind of. Kind of...because it only took some things into consideration...and not others...namely me. She did this unilaterally without my input and in part....out of extreme need to do this very quickly (and kind of impatiently) way in advance....before she had all the facts in order to take other variables into account...as they happened. Namely...what other people wanted or needed when making all these decisions.
As I see her doing this...she is writing that script again (the story) before it happens...and creating or fitting it to her story that only she is aware of. And then everyone else just needs to pick up the pieces of this script and follow along and try and figure it out as they go. Which is exactly what everyone else had to do. ( much like a parent does for their children in advance in anticipation of all their needs and doing this for them way in advance...and then directing them when they get there to make sure they follow the program). What she is not considering here...is that she is taking the ability for anyone else...to choose if they want this or not? Or choose to do things in a different way that goes contrary or is in conflict with the way she decided it should be done ahead of time. Having and idea of what you are going to do in advance is always needed and no one will argue that. Having it written in stone and an inability to change or adapt this plan as needed...as you go....to account for unforeseen obstacles is a problem if they appear in front of you and you only have this set script to work from?
In essence....there are no contingency plans that account for others and things beyond your control when ever you try and do things this way. Or worse....even with the best laid plans available....you hit up against bumps in the road and are completely ill prepared to deal with them right then and there in the moment which requires some problem solving ability, thinking on your feet, and an ability to adapt and change accordingly. If you can't do that at the very least.....everything will be a panic each time that happens.
As I see things....you need to flexible enough...to account for all of these things...and change directions sometimes.... quickly and easily without a major confrontation or fight since anything is likely to happen and usually do without any choice in the matter by anyone sometimes? Such is life...and we are all human. To the point...that missing things, forgetting things and making mistakes are also part of it. The matter of degree is going to vary from one person to the next there as well. Me and my ADHD....can make me more unreliable at time for sure....but it doesn't mean I can't or don't do it. But only sometimes....and maybe more than average at times...but not others....which makes me inconsistent...not completely unreliable.
But I do plan things in advance and think about things ahead of time...and those incorporate my values and considering others at the same time and when I do that without having to ask or even talk about it with others ahead of time....I know if I did that well or not...by the results. Which means....everyone is basically accounted for and for the most part...there are no problems and everyone is happy. At least for the time being on any given day.
I do make mistakes and miscalculations too...which accounts for human error. I did this on the way to our vacation spot on a road I've traveled many times in the past. But it was many years since I'd been there and was going off of memory. I did get turned around at one point and took an unfamiliar road by accident...which delayed our ability to be on time. I didn't get lost...but I took the scenic road you might say.LOL I knew where I was...but I didn't think about this ahead of time and have a map just in case. A familiar male tendency as is reported by many. lol
But even then....this is not the norm for me. Mostly...I have a really good sense of direction and don't do a lot of driving by feel in order to avoid asking for directions. I have no problem with asking for directions and usually do at the first sign of something that isn't looking right. Everyone gets a Mulligan too...as long as it's only once in a blue moon. lol
And in that non one can be perfect all the time....everyone makes mistakes and misses things. As I said to C...the problems come more from assuming....than predicting things ahead of time with the expectation that things will go wrong and trying your best to be prepared without knowing exactly what might happen? Being a good Boy Scout would seem to make the best sense all things considered?
So what is this problem with assumptions, exceptions and expectations and trying to predict the future and mind reading others which leads to running into each other like chickens with their heads cut off? This is what I've been searching for just that simply reasonable explanation so I can predict this ahead of time in order to avoid these conflicts for the next time....in that my wife is so adamant in controlling and not willing to discuss it all....which only leads to a fight every time I try? It seems....aksing questions...is the very thing that sets her off? But why? That makes no sense at all if you account for the problems we've run into in the past over this very thing but in this case....these aren't Mulligan's in respect to this issue. This is the norm to have these problems along with the unwillingness to talk about it and find out just went wrong? Either now about the past.....in the moment when we need to...or about any future plans we have together which is really all about choreographing what we do...with some idea of what the other person is doing without having to know where they are, what they are doing and broadcasting this information like a play by play commentator everywhere you go in order to do this. This does nothing...but tell other people what you are doing right now...in the moment.
As the director..and writer of the script you written...this works out fine for you...as long as everyone else just follows along and has no problems with that script that you unilaterally made up ahead of time...or maybe only a little while before in lack of one? Been there...done that too. lol
But none of this really accounts for this interference that keeps happening when everyone just collide into each other and no one has any idea of what is happening and the person who is the self appointed director...can't tell you either and only gets upset when you ask them? Like I said...if they did that well and took in account for most of these contingencies to the best of their ability....you wouldn't need to ask since their would be no problem in the first place? And the few and far between you can account for and just let those go as long as you know what they are and can say so an apologize as needed.
And possibly and maybe more appropriately....just acknowledge that you made a mistake so others know that you did and just move on without making it a big deal about it (which it isn't since we all do these things from time to time in the little things and the details not the big things that have to do with values if values are not the problem itself?)
Coming down to the bottom line in my ability to say what I see specifically as the problem I've run into with my wife that is not about core values...but still makes me not trust her good judgment and common sense and what actually is causing the negative effect on me from her actions. This is a "belief"...but it's base on something other than core values.
As I see this....this is more of a false belief in terms of herself personally...which has nothing to do with values or core ethics...than it is an inability that is created by this belief.... and then a misdirected action which follows suit which is directly related to the part that effects me negatively that she will not talk about openly with me or discuss it. I can't make her talk about it or discuss this with me in a way that makes sense to me which is less important than just understanding what it is so I can do something about it on my end so it doesn't effect me. I can't mind read her, and I can't stop her believing what she wants to believe. I have no control there what so ever. But in order to do my part so I can avoid these problems...is to have that modicum of understanding so I can do what I have to do to predict things ahead of time and be prepared when they happen again. I'm not going to say I need to know exactly what she thinks or how she thinks in everything she does....but I do need to know at the very least...a rough idea of what the problem is since she is not very forth coming ahead of time...and has a history of repeating the same problem again and again with seeming unawareness of how this is causing others to run into her and then points the finger at them when they do? This process of eliminating what it's not..... and narrowing it down to what is left...has brought me right to the door I think I'm been looking for here......
Locus of Control....that's the definition ( the door ) that I've been struggling to find a word for. Taken from a brief article describing this in terms...
Locus of Control
Control: an easy word to understand yet a challenging word to actually deal with. We have people that think they control everything, others that think they are controlled by the world around them and pretty much everything in between. Control can be defined as the power to determine outcomes by directly influencing actions, people and events. When we look at it that way, we can begin to see that there is no way to control everything in our lives. I'm not saying we cannot control anything, but put in the context of that definition, we have to step back and really analyze what we can and cannot control.
The word 'control' becomes even more interesting when we have the word locus, before it. You see, locus is defined as a position, point or place, or more specifically, a location where something occurs. A person's locus of control may be internal or external.
And add to that...a line taken from the article specific to ADHD, EF and Humor that I included is part....as how I made this discovery....
In general, research suggests that individuals with ADHD often exhibit executive function deficits, although these deficits are not unique to ADHD and are not necessary for a diagnosis of ADHD. Yes exactly. It's not important that anyone else understand this as I do. What is important....that it makes sense to me and how I can apply this to my wife. The modicum of understanding I was talking about.
These two things tell me all I really need to know in terms of predicting my wife's behavior (enough) to head off problems before they happen and to understand what I am dealing with. I can't change or do anything about this in terms of controlling my wife directly. All I can do is understand what she is unable to tell me...so I don't make assumptions and speculate as to why this is? This is not a deal breaker for me if she is different than I am. I can accept this without a problem since my wife's core values are not at issue here. What is at issue...is my ability to control myself and to choreograph my actions with hers fully acknowledging and understanding this difference we have so we don't keep running into each other and the problems associated with that. What I know from experience and from our history together....that this issue we have between our differences is causing me to be unable to control myself effectively since she is acting unilaterally and not communicating (since she is not aware or understanding this the same as I do) and is unwilling to discuss this ahead of time in the way I've been going about it.
This is about a belief in terms...but that belief is about yourself....not about some kind of moral or ethical deficiency....but none the less...the actions that are a result of this belief...are still the ones causing the problems for both of us. And this isn't personal only to me. It's effecting others negatively as well but I no ability to control that or do anything there either. I only have control of what I believe and do....what was missing was my ability to understand this...so I can do something about it. That's the only control I need to have along with this same kind of understanding. For me that is....not for anyone else.
For me...for what ever reason which is less important. I need to understand things in this way to tell me what to do. This could be because of my ADHD...and it could be that this is what I need to be comfortable and feeling in control myself in order to do this? But if it works...and this is what I need.....it's not much to ask for and it doesn't have an effect on anyone else other than positive which is the desired results. I don't to judge my wife or her inability to things the same as I do but I do need to have the same opportunity to control myself as she does and if this is the the thing that is interfering with my ability to control myself....then I have a say in the matter if this is the problem in itself. And if having a say in the matter isn't working or effect...then I needed to find a different method in order to do this for myself. My wife cannot control what I do any more than I can control her....what I cannot allow her to do...is prevent me from having the same control for myself that she does by jumping in front of me and trying to head me off before I have the chance. This the effect...that I have been struggling to find that modicum of understanding...so I can do this accurately and precisely and plan or predict this ahead of time...so the problems will never manifest in the first place? That's all I've been trying to do anyway...and that was really the only problem in the first place.
That is....except figuring this all out. lol
Knowledge is power.,..and power = control. For myself that is. I can't do anything about that for anyone else and have no power there what so ever aside from communicating what I know in a way that my wife can understand.
When we look at it that way, we can begin to see that there is no way to control everything in our lives. I'm not saying we cannot control anything, but put in the context of that definition, we have to step back and really analyze what we can and cannot control.
The word 'control' becomes even more interesting when we have the word locus, before it. You see, locus is defined as a position, point or place, or more specifically, a location where something occurs.
And that point of contact or interface (place)...is the connection my wife and I have in the moment. Whether we are talking about the past, present or future....we will always have this one point of contact in any communication we do (aside from texting or the phone which is missing some important elements in having this kind of human interface with another person...effectively that is )
In respect to this....this is really what I needed to understand better (or more clearly defined for me)...to avoid the problems we keep running into. If I can predict these issues associated with this in the past....I can better connect with her heart..instead of her mind which is constantly spinning and trying to control and predict things that are simply not possible for her to do which only causes problems for other people including me in this case. This is the part that is definitely not personal to me...and really has nothing to do with her core values as a person and the trust I have for her in that way. What I don't trust and need to predict...is the seemingly lack of good common sense that appears to be the by product of this for her. In this case....it's not her I don't trust....it's her decision making process in the moment...and the way she is trying to gain control for herself. As long as I can control myself and what I do and have the ability to choreograph myself alone with her....we won't be stepping on each others toes while one person is trying to tap dance....while the other one is doing the fox trot. lol
I think it's possible to do both....with a little more room in between us without having to go to completely separate dance floors entirely all said and done. There is a thing called interpretive freestyle dancing if I'm not mistaken? lol
Locus of control article: http://study.com/academy/lesson/locus-of-control-definition-and-examples...
J
Thinking styles
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Hi, J, a couple thoughts
I wondered if you and your wife have different thinking styles. You seem from your posts like you're into research, finding keys to why patterns happen, giving reasons. Looking at the design or layout of things Things need to make sense to you, to fit. And you probe and hunt, looking for answers.
You'll know your wife, we dont, but is it possible that she has a different enough style of thinking that it's hard for her to handle your rather pinpointed questions to her? Here are a few thinking styles that are not find the piece in the pattern type thinking: associative, lyrical, story, paradoxes/ironies. A rhythm, with repetitions in it There are quite a few more. There's no reason that people need to use the same thinking style, unless they're taking a class on a particular subject.
I think it's great that the two of you come back and talk over a past event
I also wondered whether she was less practiced at knowing her interior landscape than you are. How many years of therapy have you had? How many has she had? Does she practice introspection, as far as you can tell, voluntarily when not in a therapy session, or when required to introspect dealing with your questions about her motives and thoughts? I'm not so much talking about being anxious, having feelings, or processing a reaction to something that happened, we all do that. I mean going inside our own thoughts and doing things like noticing ourselves in there and evaluating ourselves in there. Takes practice.
If she is not accustomed to introspection about herself, or has no goal of her own for doing it and if she doesnt have a rational, figure out the patters of things way of thinking, it may be hard or really hard for her to answer questions you put to her about herself. There's not one way to think, and people can be more or less practiced in discussing themselves. Or prefer not to discuss themselves.
That doesnt erase your need for enough ability to predict outcome of what she says she's going to do that life can go on. When you wrote that I remembered my husband's need to pin me to something that he expected or he had determined to do, or it would cause him some stress. I roll with the punches of things not going as expected a little easier than he does. Long spells where things dont make sense to him are hard on him.
There may be an extra ADHD piece to your need to know what your wife is going to do, and why, in reasons that make sense to you, that she does or doesnt do things.
Reading your post, Melissa's 5/2 blog post about shame came to mind, particularly Melissa's first point. Take a look at points 1-4, reading them with your wife, not yourself or someone else with ADHD in mind. Does that open up any thoughts about your situation with your wife? I remembered that she had hard times as a child.