I moved this comment I made previously as to my own feelings of why my wife does what she does. I could not wrap my head around her behavior and the motivation that I was seeing as quite obvious to me....as self sabotaging both herself....Me......and us together at the same time.
I wanted to include part of how I arrived at this in terms of the first born....oldest sibling in her household. This get's right back to attachment theory once again and is at the root cause or core of her motivations. And of course.....the mother (her mother in her case) had an instrumental part to play in this at the core or cause of it. ( even if....unintentional ) I think the more extreme the failure is on the mothers part (your spouse's mother if you are trying to apply it to them)....the more extreme the behaviors become. That is....as it works within the theory itself.
FYI: You of course....have your own part to play into this dynamic as well in the same way...for the same reasons.
I'm going to venture as far as to say that with my wife...and everything I know pulling this all together....this is exactly what I see in her actions and the reasons behind it even though she can't see it in herself and the reasons why.
More importantly....I see it....and that takes the control away from her and puts that in my court now and can proceed accordingly as I see fit.
For anyone else dealing with the same thing in their relationship with an avoidant personality....I think this might give you a good reference to work from yourself.....and then proceed as you see fit....for yourself alone...or within your relationship.
I might even venture as far to say.....I'm sure of it this time and I have no reason to doubt what I'm seeing anymore. What I do with it....will be determined by using this as my reference in the future. I think it's worth investigating and taking a closer look at the very least.
(a)Shame(d) A little play on words there. I was thinking about this in terms of my wife and I and I realized something I said in my speculating about my wife's childhood family situation and how she ended up the way she did.
Quiet is good (remaining silent or doing nothing) mmmmmm?
Acceptance of reality? mmmmmm?
Letter of the Law? mmmmmm?
I'm thinking.....who's reality are we accepting? And if so....are we right? And should we keep our mouths shut just to avoid what we don't like,....just to keep the peace? Our peace that is?
At the expense of what or who? mmmmmm?
What I said the other day about my wife being a Tattletale on her little brother to save herself was almost for certain true from what I heard from her brother ( I remembered in grade school....little girls usually tattle'd more than little boys in general but this is not saying it doesn't work both ways either.
The law of the play ground (jungle) during recess was pretty harsh on Tattletales and they usually ended up getting hurt by the group mob mentality.(Lord of the Flies) This was very true when I grew up. I remember one girl...who was tied to the tether ball pole with jump ropes and left alone outside crying after recess and the teacher finally figured out she was not back in her seat and had to go find her and rescue her. True story. No one likes a Tattletale for good reason....it's a form of betrayal for the benefit of only one person ...themselves.
But as I thought about this more....I wondered what the Tattletale is really after and has to gain...knowing, everyone will hate them? To win favor and special attention from the teacher....that's what they gain but doing so at everyone's expense.
And what happened in the early infants experience that created a dissmisve/avoidant child? Mom left the child alone for too long and it didn't get it's needs met or enough attention after mom returned from being away from the child. The attention given was either missing or inconsistent and/or un-nurturing right? Probably because Mom was too interested in herself and the attention she needed? Or the mother was too busy herself and wasn't paying close enough attention to her childs needs......for what ever reasons? What goes around comes around?
So why this self sabotaging behavior and where does it come from or originate from and then.....what do you do about it on your end to put an end to this uncalled for behavior?
I looked up Tattletales and found this interesting article to apply here. Just a thought of my own and a possible way to get to the bottom of this once and for all?
The Tattletale.... How to get a kid to stop ratting out his friends.
By Hara Estroff Marano, published on September 7, 2007 - last reviewed on June 9, 2016
I have a five-year-old grandson who has been snitching on his younger friends and cousins. His mother has talked to him about this and has noticed that his friends are backing away from him. She is unable to stop him. Is there any advice as to what she can do to help her five-year-old.
Your grandson is giving about as clear a signal as it gets that he needs attention. Not a talking to about misbehavior. But genuine, unfettered, for-him-only positive attention from his mother.
Every child needs some. He probably doesn't need a lot of it, but if he felt he had more of it, he wouldn't need to rat on those who are stealing from him the time and attention of his beloved mother. It may be that by the end of the day she is just too exhausted to give her son some exclusive time. But he needs it.
Perhaps mother and son can build in a little bedtime ritual that involves just the two of them, perhaps some reading and talk time. The important thing is that this time is set aside every day, that it occurs as reliably as sunrise and sunset so your grandson can come to count on it, and that—and this is really important—it is 15 or 20 minutes with no other demands on either of them.
Mom can't be doing one or two other things. It is time she shares only with her son. If a child knows he has access to his parent—a signal that he is loved and proof that his needs matter and will get attended to—then there is not the need to engage in behaviors designed to, from his perspective, enhance his status at the expense of others.
Children are amazing little creatures. Like all of us, even their misbehaviors serve a purpose. It is the obligation of the parent to figure out what that purpose is.
And it is especially important not to reward the misbehavior—"tattle telling"—with attention, which, unfortunately, your daughter is doing.
Further, from your grandson's perspective, being "talked to" about "tattle telling" is only compounding the crime already committed against him. He's getting chewed out for wanting an expression of love from his mother.
When your daughter begins giving a little exclusive positive attention to her son, perhaps they can use some of their talk time to come up with some really good and fun ways he can signal that he needs some Mommy time (without having to resort to putting other people down).
J
New Word for the Day - Alexithymia
Submitted by vabeachgal on
J:
Scholarly article for you - relates to attachment theory
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4667529/
Attachment, recalled parental rearing, and ADHD symptoms predict emotion processing and alexithymia in adults with ADHD
It's an interesting read.
ADHD, w/ Dysregulation and Alexithymia symptoms....
Submitted by c ur self on
The demands for accountability on us as individuals as it pertains to governing our lives, has lead me to recognize that when a person or persons are adversely effected w/ a mind clouded by the above issues, communication is almost impossible.
If minds were roads, this type mind would most resemble a one-way-street....
This type mind usually abhors trying to listen, because it suffers to follow, it suffers to understand, which leads quickly to inexcusable outbursts....Which puts great fear and trepidation on the individual because they are aware of it.....Thus the avoidance....Executive function features no matter how limiting they are to communication, they are no fault of the suffer. Those who are aware can thrive w/ ownership and proper management....
This type mind has caused me to coin many phrases to remind me, and help me to learn to govern my own life even as it goes against my own nature....
When words are the worst kind of Communication.
Quiet is good.
Acceptance of reality.
Never press into a closed mind.
Boundaries are a must.
Live like they don't exist.....(not my favorite, it gets misunderstood to easily)
Self-awareness is the second greatest gift...
C
Help me to understand
Submitted by vabeachgal on
C:
Ah.
Please help me to understand.
Are you saying this is why no amount of communication with my husband seems to work and I feel completely shut out? The communication will not flow back to me, as with a two way street? This is why I have to probe and question to get any kind of information and he is so resistant to the probing? He can't seem to describe anything in terms of rationale or emotion? The answer is consistently "I don't know" which I honestly can't understand because that is not how my mind works. The same way he doesn't "get" me, I don't get that kind of non self aware answer. For better or for worse, I can usually explain - in great detail - how I am feeling and why I am feeling the way I am...I can drill down into adjective and adverb territory to find the exact right word to describe the nuance of how I am feeling - so I simply don't understand the inability. I don't understand a response of "nothing."
Is this why when I ask why he's angry he says that he isn't? Why he cannot share any feelings? Why I feel so lonely because there doesn't seem to be any connection? Why he avoids difficult tasks and conversations? Avoidance - king of avoidance. He can't figure out what to do about things so avoids everything.
Does this mean there is no depth of feeling for another person? If you can't describe basic feelings, how can you feel love? How can you share those feelings with another person?
Not his fault, I get that. But, wow, as a partner, what a mess to work through. It does help to explain why communication is so fruitless and why there is so much avoidance. But, now more than ever I am convinced that if he does actively seek treatment and coaching, there isn't much more to be said.
Add some attachment issues due to losing both parents by 19 and geez :(
It's really sad. A marriage should be a partnership and sharing. I guess in this case, there is no sharing of lives, activities, goals, thoughts, finances, feelings..... maybe he doens't have a real choice, but he has chosen to remain solitary. Even with treatment, I have to question whether or not it could ever be something I would consider acceptable at this point in my life?
Va......Great Article I Have a Few Things to Say
Submitted by kellyj on
into what C brought up...and you are expressing as well. Clearly....I have a very descriptive mind and a what I think as I read myself.....an ability with words and to describe things (even if you aren't following me always LOL ).
As I read what you were saying about yourself and your ability to use SOME kind of adjective to describe what your feeling....I don't see myself all that different (you tell me? lol ) even if my ideas or concepts are not always easy to understand? (I'm sure lol ) That's not in terms that I cannot draw from simply because I know what my feelings are and don't have an inability to separate my feelings....from my emotions....and then know what they are? Once you know that....it doesn't take much to say so and you don't need a large vocabulary to do that either? Even kids...can usually tell you to some degree....what they are feeling in very few words? I grant myself this to the point of not seeing this as a big concern or problem I have with others as they hear me. I can be very succinct and tell you what I'm really feeling as long as I do it well and find the right words.
But that article on alexythymia really has me thinking about this now. What I can't know for anyone else...is what having ADHD is like for them. I can only know it's like for me right? And in context to that article ....the degree or severity appears to have a lot to do with this. It's the very thing that I have wondered about since I have nothing to compare myself to or better....even if I was with another person with ADHD....it still doesn't tell me much as to what is going on inside their heads.
There was a word in there I didn't recognize so I looked it up (as I always do when I don't know a word...pausing here, I always look up a word I don't know and never just go by words that I don't understand. mmmmm? Been doing that forever and I don't even remember how far back I started?mmmm? again????)
Any way....the word was nosalogy and this appeared in the definition.
From a nosological point of view, medical conditions could be divided in syndromes, diseases, disorders, lesions and injuries, each one with some specific meaning:
Disorder
In medicine, a disorder is a functional abnormality or disturbance. Medical disorders can be categorized into mental disorders, physical disorders, genetic disorders, emotional and behavioral disorders, and functional disorders. The term disorder is often considered more value-neutral and less stigmatizing than the terms disease or illness, and therefore is a preferred terminology in some circumstances. In mental health, the term mental disorder is used
......... as a way of acknowledging the complex interaction of biological, social, and psychological factors in psychiatric conditions............ ( the most poignant part for me to read here )
However, the term disorder is also used in many other areas of medicine, primarily to identify physical disorders that are not caused by infectious organisms, such as metabolic disorders.
I cannot tell you how much I understand this and how much sense this makes to me. I wouldn't expect you to,..but it says volumes to me in my own understanding of myself. If I can explain this to you in brief...you might get a clearer picture of what you are searching for yourself when dealing with your H. Same goes with C as he was saying what he has found that works for him.
My personal history is good place to start..(throughout my life being a consistent for me )
-I don't react or explode instantly or out of no where in a volatile way. Compared to others my age at any given stage of my life even as a young kid. As a very young child....I would have complete temper tantrums that were way out of control yes. Even more so than other kids but this was pre-grade school age. I got times outs for that and got sent to my room to get over and think about quite a bit but that stopped at a certain point to being an issue anymore by the time I was 7 years old. This is true. In other words....I learned how or gained some control of myself by that time to the point that even though I felt out of control....I also had the ability to contain it. That's a key feature in how I am now seeing this better?
-typically....I got along with others in social settings with very few problems aside from more minor annoyances as reported by others. True also. I socialized easily with only moments or instances in times of extreme stress.
Extreme conditions....brought out extreme reactions. Case in point.
-typically am not moody. Not in any kind of extreme or overt way. Also telling? Not saying I am on average....normal....but again....not outwardly a problem for others and this is shows up as more of a subtle noticeable difference. This part there is not way not to notice....most people are not shy about telling you when they are being adversely affected by you behavior or emotions. That right there....IS the feedback you get if it's negative from others. I can honestly say again....this was not so much what was reported back to me.
What was reported back to me was....
-sit still. stop moving. quit jumping around. quit climbing on things. quit tapping or fidgeting....quit being so loud....quit interrupting....wait your turn.....shut up...you talk too much......guit RUNNING!!!!! lol (that was a big one. I ran everywhere and rarely could just walk LOL )...quit being so animated.....don't point.....look at me.....quit trying to show me things or draw them on paper, just say it.....quit trying to explain everything to me like I don't understand.....etc
But my moods...or my general disposition....was not as affected. Almost exclusively....motor hyperactive...predominantly. You might even say....motor dysregulation.....not emotional dysregulation??
At least...this is very telling to me. I don't ever remember even once....doing the things I experience with my wife for example....even as a child that appeared to me that I could not explain or say to a certain degree....what I was feeling. Actually the opposite....I could say it with extreme detail and said too much!! lol But I always seemed to know what my feelings were mostly when I got to a certain age and didn't have this kind of reactive aversion to my emotions and feelings and not on some level....Know what they are even back then as a kid?
Again....this is all very telling to me now in comparison? Along with that....I don't remember too many things that I did not understand as people talked to me or communicate or felt an overwhelming emotional reaction that I could not control as in...instant outbursts of hostility or anger,
Except Math. Man....Math...was like learning Martian for me. It was the only area in school that I had difficulty learning. But once I did...it's now easy for me to understand.
Along with being bad or doing poorly in Math skills....I excelled in English....got A's in reading and was advanced to the advanced group in grade school since my comprehension and understanding of written words were so high. Hearing it spoken...was the only place I had some trouble with but that was in comprehension (along with poor hearing ) so that's not really related to emotions or feelings either. That;'s just cognitive ability and aptitude?
So these are all very interesting comparisons and as I am now better coming to understand....these emotional problems were less a problem for me....than the motor ones and too much motor activity and hyperactive/impulsive in the moment.....movements. As I described it....feeling like I was about to jump out of my skin sometimes from the restlessness I experienced. Restlessness as a feeling...not an emotion. Sensory distortions....not cognitive ones if that makes sense??
What you said here....The answer is consistently "I don't know" which I honestly can't understand because that is not how my mind works. The same way he doesn't "get" me, I don't get that kind of non self aware answer. For better or for worse, I can usually explain - in great detail - how I am feeling and why I am feeling the way I am...I can drill down into adjective and adverb territory to find the exact right word to describe the nuance of how I am feeling - so I simply don't understand the inability. I don't understand a response of "nothing."
Why then....if I have ADHD (which I do for sure...Hyperactive/impulsive OMG!!! ) do I feel the same way as you about this. And mostly...have been no different in my past before I knew I had ADHD? I did have a fair amount (even a high amount) of ODD as a child only (young)...but that went away rather quickly to the point that this was not a huge issue either? It manifested differently...but was not as you might think of ODD and being completely incorrigible. I was not incorrigible as I would describe my childhood at all. I didn't "act out" a lot if that makes it easier to understand? "Acting out" for me came in other forms and more indirectly and
And why then....did I not develop into Avoidant attachment issues and developed into insecure anxious ones instead? As you were applying his loss of his parents....that doesn't actually apply directly to Attachment Theory which takes place before you are 2 and especially in the first year after you are born as I understand this?
And why then....could I understand and do so well with reading and English. My SAT's score were high there...but my Math scores were low??
And mostly...any behavior problems I had in school came from getting up out of my seat and talking too much. I really had no conduct issues that stood out except for practical jokes and getting into trouble there.
And why then....did I have almost no other issues in my relationships with friends, co-worker or the public at large....with the only exception in my intimate relationships and this is the only place I ran into any perceivable or noticeable problems with anyone....across the board?
And why then....am I an extrovert....not an introvert? And I like going to places with lots of people and hove no problems in crowds or managing myself in big social gatherings. Never been in a fight with hostile strangers. Have no problems walking away from difficult people in public or otherwise (even at work ) and don't ever run into trouble in those situations that require some patience and understanding to get yourself out of without conflict?
And why does it appear....that alexythymia is not a problem for me either. In any way that actually shows up or that I can feel?
It really seems to me....that the diagnosis of ADHD should be split up into different categories as it appears to me...because what I experience and see in myself...is so distinctly different even without question....I have the Hyperactive impulse part and it shows up as ..."nervous energy."
If there was one complain or feedback I got that's been consistent in a negative way from others...it would be described as my energy....ie "nervous energy." And as it comes back to me as feedback and always has been....as..."irritating" and "annoying".....not "painful"...or..."damaging"....or else I would have gotten that from the hundreds....maybe thousands of times this was pointed out to me?
Aside from one particular group ( or category of people ),,,,who seem to find "nervous energy" as something that is almost intolerable to them.
Putting it bluntly as a wide spectrum of all people in a general way. People who have high "sensitives" to things....as I would describe them as "picky"."finicky".."fastidious" and "exacting" and they appear to me as having a "low tolerance threshold to environmental things".........I have found, they find me unnerving to them at times. An "engineer types"..."type "A" types.....or what I use to call...."anal retentive types" find me highly annoying and even disruptive to their sensibilities. Only them.....not any other people I run into in general which may account for possibly 25%....I'm guessing....of everyone I meet in general?
Honestly. I can spot them pretty quickly and my wife does fall into this category for sure. Part of my own thinking about his and my lack of compassion at times comes from being able to sense this and determine that this only accounts for the 'minority" of all people out there who have this issue with me? I know this as fact. How could I not know this. If only 25 people in a room with 100 people in it...voice any issues or concerns with me....and they are ALWAYS the same group of people who are giving you this feedback or say anything ever....it's not that hard to put 2 + 2 together here. From a live time of experience that stays consistent over time.
This is definitely part of any attitude problem that I have. I don't have an attitude problem with people in general. What I have is an attitude problem with type "A"..."anal retentives" who as I see it (account for the minority of all people out there...my guess 25% of the population ) which says "join the club...and get over yourself. Not everyone is so sensitive as you and you are in the minority along with me. I cannot help you with YOUR problem.....YOUR problem.....isn't my problem. Get over it....and learn to deal like me." Simply put. Overly sensitive, type A , anal retentives.....do not speak for me or the rest of the population...even if they think they do. That would be like me.....denying I have ADHD wouldn't it?
As I see it.....type A, hyper sensitive, anal retentive's....are in a class all by themselves. I can't help it....if they are that intolerant of me and my...."nervous energy" and I'm not about to try and fix....something I can't fix in myself even though...I have now become very aware of how my bad attitude has needed to change for all concerned including myself. I realize this bad attitude is not directed towards everyone...but a vast minortiy of poeple I encounter in general looking at the whole. It's like....you can't please everyone...so why even try...and if only 25% or everyone has a problem with me....then that' their problem ....not mine. Join the club of disorders as far as I'm concerned ....get in line on that one with me?
I'm just stating my old bad attitude and less today. It's still in there but as I'm saying this now....I am also aware of it and aware of the need to modify it some without completely turning a blind eye to it either?
I am so aware of this it's not even funny. I can read this so well that I can "feel it" from them even if they don't say anything....that's how well I can read this and am extremely aware of it when I'm in their presence. It's a very disquieting and almost uncanny ability to read "hostility" or "irritation" in others...to the point....that I feel it...and am aware of it....before they are or even seem to know that they are acting this way towards me. My feelers are highly tuned to pick this up and it comes through as a "sensing" ability I have.
So in essence....as it appears to me....that I'm reading and sensing others feelings better....than they are themselves many times? How is that possible if I don't understand or know feelings? Literally. How can that be...if I don't know what I am feeling from others as well as knowing what my own feelings are?
And yet.....I have ADHD? I don't get it either Va....I wish I understood this better myself just for my own curiosity?
J
V - I read your posts and
Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on
V - I read your posts and sometimes have to wonder if we are married to the same man.
You described your husband, but at the same time described mine to a T. I wish it werent like this. He seems to be able to have that 2 way communcation with others (not very well but more than with me).
sadly, yes
Submitted by vabeachgal on
... he is able to give others full attention.... and remember what they said and respond appropriately.
Here's a story, maybe you'll get a chuckle.
He came home and reported that a friend of his at work was REALLY stressed out because of all of the financial aid deadlines at UVa. Her daughter was a prospective freshman and she had not been through the process before and was REALLY stressed. Get it? REALLY STRESSED about it...
I stared at him until he said "what?"
Uh, we have a child in the house who is also a prospective college freshman... how could you not know about the requirements and deadlines? and the cost of college????? Oooooohhhh, because I kept the work and stress to myself. You're so welcome..... poof - magic wand and fairy dust time lol
It did not click in his mind that I was engaged in the same activities.... or feeling the same pressure....
His contribution? He loaded the vehicles and drove one of them to campus (she had a lot of stuff)
Thankfully, my H doesn't threaten to leave. I don't know how you deal with that. It'll probably never happen until you make it happen.
LMAO - I had to add this - it's the same way groceries and clean clothing appear in the house - fairydust. I didn't know how good I was at it until I took my son and his friend to NYC this past weekend. My son's friend was like "wow, you are stealthy, every time I turned around, you had already taken care of something. How did you do that ?" Practice my little grasshopper, practice....
See, Stace ? All these magic wands and fairy dust? We're really fairy princesses!! LOL
LOL Radar O'Reilly?
Submitted by kellyj on
From "Mash"......lol
Is it the job that makes you that way...or are you that way so you do the job??? A good chicken or the egg question?
Anyway....I laughed for what it's worth. lol
J
V - right now, even though I
Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on
V - right now, even though I sound like a crazy person in a rage today (see my other posts LOL) - the reality is, my husband has really put forth some effort in the past 3 weeks to get things done, and I dont want to minimlize that. But yeah - he will do things when I ask, even when he knows he is responsible for them (he asked for a list of chores - we walked through each one, agreed about theme etc and HUNG THEM RIGHT IN THE LIVING AREA...... he still didnt do them).
I think he thought that too about the fairy dust - things just magically happened - money just magically appeared for all his desires - for the first years of our life together, I was working full time AND cleaning everything up - while he gamed and smoked, and did what ever. LOL CRAZY. he doesnt even see the mess EVEN when pointed out. When I do its "I dont nkow what to do with all that stuff!!!" ... even though he is 43.... and knows where things go.... *sigh* lol
He has been a great help in the recent weeks, and I am very proud of him for what he has done. But I also dont really believe this is a real and permanent change yet.
Oh and those threats??? I cant stand it. Literally I think something misfired in my brain 2 months ago because since then - I have been planning for him to leave. I am going to take him at his word. If he doesnt mean it? Then he needs to put his ring back on and quit talking like that and start showing me that he is working on things (which I do accept that him doing projects etc and keeping up on things in the house is certainly refreshing and gives me hope - and PROVES to me that he CAN - unlike how he said he 'cant" and he "tried and couldnt"). The reality is I cannot live with them (the threats) anymore. So I will not. I am making my stand. He is going to leave when our little dog passes. And I am preparing myself mentally and logisitcally for that. It has become the ONLY expectation I have for him.
The only way that will change is a full turn around on his part - because I refuse to live like I have been living for 7 years. I refuse to be lonely and neglected and taken advantage of ANYMORE. He says he loves me - and I am sure he does in a very limited, disfunctional capacity - and that is just not enough anymore for me. He needs to work on his issues and become a better man for himself, and in turn - that will make him a better man for me. But no more talking about it. No more "thinking" about it. He does it or he is gone from my life. And right now - I am counting on the latter because he has taught me that he is weak and lazy EXCEPT when it comes to video games. He doesnt even care enough about his fighting to do the daily practice given to him from his instructors. He loves that hobby FAR more than he loves me - so ... it is what it is.... I would love to see him prove me wrong though. I would happliy eat my words, and return to supporting him and loving him and arming him in every way I can. But I now require something solid to even CONSIDER that now.
Consequences Stacey
Submitted by kellyj on
I have to admit this because If I didn't ....I would by lying to myself. As Dr Barkley pointed out in his videos....there are to be externalized consequences of some kind for those of us who have ADHD. I'm directly this at myself as much as anyone. Motivation it seems....needs to be associated or attached to some kind of consequence but in terms of talk....."talk is cheap." Really. But doing that right or in the right way I think is really tricky. I tend to procrastinate....not avoid. I always get it done or follow through...but my pattern is to wait and do it last minute or at the end of time. I'm working on that and changing this pattern since it does end up biting you in the butt if you run out of time.
If my wife can't wait even a day before she does something. I will always look like I didn't do it...since she did it before I got there. That's a particular problem I have with us trying to get that practice. She's very good with beating me to the punch....so good....I never get the chance to either do it...or get the practice. That's one problem but not necessarily the one you're describing.
But that's still my problem since I'm the one who needs to be better and improve in this area...not my wife? To be sure.
But my ability to clean neat and tidy has varied alot and sometimes and for even extended periods of time....I've actaully been very neat and tidy and keep things orderly.
What Va mentioned about being stressed...is when things fall apart on my end. That goes right back to what Melissa said about her husband (or he said it? either way )...consistently inconsistent ...the hallmark of ADHD.
That would be me. I am consistently inconsistent which means.... I can be...and have been....consistent in cleaning up , picking up and doing anything my wife might complain about and even related to my overall mood and general well being or problems others experience with me.
I can periods of time....even large ones where I am on top of everything and do a fine job as well.
When I get too stressed out and racked with anxiety...this falls apart and I fall down. The inconsistent part.
This is also random....and not in any pattern. If I'm not stressed out. I can go on indefinitely and the Adderall really did help to even that out more.
But the Adderall....as I have come to find....won't do it once I'm too stressed. No magic cure for that...and that;s when my symptoms reappear out of nowhere.
Saying....even when I'm trying...I can still be inconsistent but mostly in favor of doing it....rather than not doing it generally speaking what ever it is? Consequences for me to get moving...don't need to be much to get me going again and return to being consistent again depending on.
This appears different....than only doing it with a gun put to your head....but otherwise....not doing it at all?
See what I mean?
J
What I keep hearing from you and others at times....sounds chronic...and persistent and continuous....and is not random and consistently inconsistent?
J - its funny you bring up
Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on
J - its funny you bring up procrastination. :-) My H is the KING of this - even self proclaimed. He is absolutely self away of his problems with procrastination. Here is where it gets nasty....(because I can deal with procrastination aggravating as it is)....
My H also has severe disassociation problems, which has lead to chronic memory issues. I am amazed that he remembers anything at all sometimes. Not trying to be an ass, its just such a huge issues. So what happens - in a vicious cycle - is my husband will need to do something or be asked to do something, and then because of his internal lazyness will procrastincate on said item, although he committed to it. He has no self control - only following and doing exactly what he wants when he wants to - so that "I am gonna relax for an hour before I do my thing" turns into - well I dont feel like it right now, I want to continue relaxing or doing what ever. Soon - he has forgotten about the commitment he made to get the "thing" done. So I - who am not allowed to question him or remind him (because thats me controlling him) -have to have faith that he got the thing done, and depended on that more times than I should. Only to get burned over and over because the thing isnt done - and it causes me to go into hyper stress mode to take care of all *my* things that I had planned out - beacuse I put my faith into him getting HIS things done - and then now I have to get HIS stuff handled as well. Then - if I am upset about it, he gets angry with ME and says I expect to much and am controlling him.
Even when we have agreed and have things written down - HE STILL DOESNT DO IT.
He completely procrastinated to much on our wedding vows - he just made them up at the alter. And all he ended up saying is that he would never break his promises to me (you know, those things he says when he is in the MOOD, but doesnt follow through on because he thinks they are only binding when he feels like they are).... LOL.... I have to laugh because I dont have any more tears.
I wish this was just me doing analysis - but this is what he has actually TOLD me. I am not putting words into his mouth, and I am not doing an arm chair diagnosis. Those are HIS WORDS.
?????? HOW DO I LIVE LIKE THAT !!!!!!!!
Oh My......This is Wierd....More Flashbacks
Submitted by kellyj on
I Love flashbacks!!!! It's where I get my answers so many times. They not an anomoly either...but they are somewhat spontaneous and have less to do with thinking anything.....againl...clearing you mind and just letting things happen. In fact.....I have found.....in the first 5 minutes when I first wake up sometimes....before my mind has a chance to "kick in".....I'm in that in between state of consuiousness.....and that's where most of my best ideas come from. First thing in the morning before I first get out of bed. I Love this feature about myself. It's like being hypnotized every morning...and when all these great thoughts and ideas just come pouring in.....and then when I actually wake up.....my mind "kicks in" to the rest of the day....and I have to wait for the next morning for that trance like state to open up (that short window of time) when my mind is free. Free space....is a good way to describe it. lol
Stacey.....I came back here to connect what I really beleive happened with me in my childhood. Not what I think.....actually what I know I did....and to the point....can still do if I want to....but I do have control over this.
I realized.....I had control over this to a certain degree.....even as a child. Further....it's why I don't flood with emotions....why I don't over react with anger and hostility....and how I learned to manage my emotional lability even as a child. It all came rushing back to me....and then I go here to explain it to you....and you bring up dissociation in association with your H.
You have no idea....just how right you are dear Stacey. What I just actually remembered and I had to go way back to one of those moments to do it.....that dissociation IS something.....if you are aware of it....can be a really , really handy tool to use....if you learn how to use it and you are aware that you are doing it....ON PURPOSE.
I use to call it....Tuning Out. It's like ignoring someone on purpose....but on Steroids!! lol This is you....in the here and now.....and something is causing you to become emotionally overwhelmed. You could just over react and go berserk.....or you could just shut down and close your ears....blah, blah, blah, blah, blah....which is still avoiding the consequences of your over blown emotions going hair wire with no ability to control it.
OR......you just reach down and flip your handy switch (on purpose) and Tune that station to a different one while that person continues on with haranguing you while you just switch off your emotions and tune that station to a different one....while still pretending to be engaged or in the same room with the "irritant" and remain calm cool and collected. This was the secret weapon I learned to wield...and when I say wield.....you are totally aware of your ability to do this on a conscious level. As soon as the "irritant" leaves and it's safe to flip you switch back into "engage mode"....you do so and now you've never missed a beat....you are still in the present moment and never really disengaged yourself from your feelings or emotions and just went to your happy place for a brief respite from the "irritant" in question?
And as I recalled countless times with my mom especially...since my Dad would just get furious when he'd catch me doing that with him.....but with my mom who I'm almost positive had ADHD....who would do that ADHD thing where she could just go off on a complete tangent in her thoughts and carry on indefinitely while you had to sit and trying and follow her disconnected ramblings. This is what I grew up with so I am soooooo use to it.
With her....I would just hit the mute button....and change the channel while nodding and pretending I was listening to her...but at the same time....just go off to my happy place and listen to music in my head or what ever...until I stopped hearing the sound of her voice. And then just sit there and looking at her and she would say...."well"...or "see"....or...."so".....or....."something as in....did you hear a word I said"
"Yes"
And then you were good to go. No problem. No emotional flooding. No over reacting. You are in complete control of this and have that handy switch to flip....on demand as necessary. It was such a great tool to have on board...any time you needed it and it kept you completely in control of your own emotions...any time they started to get "out of control". It was like taking a temporary "time out" in your head....while tuning out the source of "irritation" at the same time....so you don't become "irritated yourself".
I've got to say....remembering back and how often I did this....the choice between becoming emotionally over reactive.....remaining connected to yourself and not becoming overwhelmed.....and being able to remain calm cool and collected.......this was a beauty way to go. That's all I can say. LOL
Dissociation....used as a tool....with awareness...and the ability to weild this tool on demand and have and "on" .."off" switch that you are in control of by doing it this way.....is a perfect way to manage others...or "irritants"....to keep from becoming "irritated" and "angry" yourself. It makes you immune to anything...anyone else might do...while at the same time....just sitting there quietly and enjoying what ever it is on your mind or that you want to think about. It's like having a AM/FM radio in your head....and you just change the channel to a better one....when the channel you're on starts becoming annoying.
Of course.....this really pisses people off when they catch you doing it or ask you to repeat back what they just said and you go....."I didn't hear that part".....
"Which part????????"
"uh.....all of it?" LOL
There you go Stacey....dissociation in a nut shell.....but with me....actually learning how to control it. If you are completely unaware of it or have no idea what is happening or are completely disconnected your emotions or your own awareness.....I could where this could be a real problem.
And I now suddenly realized that at times with my wife.......this is what she's doing but she seems to me....she has no idea or no control of it like I remember doing when I was a little kid.
What I do remember however.....was how this use to piss people off!!!! That much....I was also aware of ....but between shutting down emotionally....becoming overwhelmed...and allowing those :"irritants" to "irritate me"....like I said....this was a beauty way to go....given the option which I discovered I had....and learned how to wield it.
I've actually read up on this...and it did say....;that for some kids who find out this ability without actually knowing this is an ability....it is a great tool to use to regulate yourself in a healthy way...until the time comes when you can manage things yourself without using this tool any more as long as it's temporarily used...on demand...and only as needed.....as it was for me.
There you go Stacey. Dissociation.....101 It is what's happening I'm sure...with my wife and your H at times but at least I know exactly what is going on.....I'm a pro. LOL
J
I am very very familiar and
Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on
I am very very familiar and aware and educated on Disassociation, different forms, difference causes, different "stages" so to speak.
My husbands disassociation is so severe that it has affected him neurologically - he literally has no memory or cognizant understanding of time when he "tunes out", and he doesnt have control when he does it too. Our counseler pointed it out, and went over the risks later of NOT dealing with it now - but since he isnt facing the real consiquences right NOW, he isnt interested in managing/handling it.
Disassociation isnt a good thing, control of your reactions is a good thing - but not tuning out the situation. Its what children do to get out of a situation - to protect themselves. Its not a mature tool to utilize as an adult - UNLESS youa re in a severe trauma, focing you into your "hind" brain (fight/flight/freeze - freeze being the disassociation).
Memory I Think if Key Here
Submitted by kellyj on
This is what I never understood. How can someone...NOT...remember big chunks of their life...or even what happened a short time ago. Like last week? I can remember...mostly everything of my life in chronological order with a fair amount of detail (even if not absolutely accurately) but even what I just said to you Stacey...I even remember those moments too?? Not all of them of course....but I remember doing that countless times and remember doing it on purpose like I said. I remember it and remember it well...that's the point?? Sometimes....too well....but that;s another problem entirely! LOL
But these blank spot and not remembering even when my wife does things at times has really made me wonder? How is it....I can remember things accurately (even if not perfectly and not saying always right)...I still remember it and that's the point?
I've never understood this...but it's making me really begin to take note of what she remembers...and what she doesn't. Even now???
J
Thats just it - the more you
Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on
Thats just it - the more you disassociate - the more you risk your ability to connect and REMEMBER things. I cant remember exactly how it all works together, but there is something in the wiring that misfires when you do that. The Disassociation removes you - so there is NO MEMORY after a while. Even for my H- it took a LONG time for him to remember what happened to him - he fought it so hard. And now, what served him well as a child - removing him mentally from what was happening to him - has destroyed his adult life. Well - ONE of the things, his choice to now utilize therapy to resolve the issues is what destroyed his adult life - though he would not think anything is destroyed. He is so blinded by his imediate wants and desires that he cannot see the cliff he is headed towards.
What I said Stacey
Submitted by kellyj on
That I can still do this if I set my mind to doing it. It's almost like hypnotizing yourself somewhat. That's probably not accurate...but in a sense....I can tune out on purpose still if I want to in the same way. Not saying I do it either but I catch myself starting to at times when my wife does some things that are similar to the monologs I've been know for. She doesn't do that....she dominates or controls the conversation and moves it to what she wants to talk about...if it's not interesting to her. She start moving the conversation away from the topic...and I'l keep pulling it back online. The more I try and stay on topic...the more she will start dominating the conversation and moving it to what ever she want to talk about. By the time I actually got to finish what I wanted to say (even succinctly ) but she pulled it away from topic so many times before I get to the punch line or just being able to finish the POINT...I was making.....she pulled and moved it , dominated and control the conversation so many times.....there is no way she heard me or remembered anything I just said. How could she....when something that might take 5 minutes....just got chopped up with so many diversions and interruptions....that the point....is LOST in the 20 minutes it took to get there? Literally. I couldn't understand it if I was doing that with her...and I certainly wouldn't remember it...even If I got what little information out of it since it was so chopped to pieces?
What I notice too....which is really interesting. I normally do not have too much trouble with forgetting where I was in a conversation. Not a norm but it happens on occasion.
What I found when trying to have a conversation with my wife....that by the time I get back to what I was trying to say due to so many interruptions....that I forget where I was? This happens a lot in what I'm saying? For me....this is not normal.
But if you stop and think about it....if this is what's happening inside her head and all those interruptions she speaking out loud...are actually happening when she's not speaking but listening to me? No wonder she can't remember? How could you when the topic was chopped up into little pieces without any context of meaning aside from one sentence or two?
J
Distortions Stacey
Submitted by kellyj on
I'm curious now. My wife admits and say she knows she has distortions? Are these associated with what you are taling about with your husband? Cannot honestly say I expereince distortions. Not in the kind I witness during these episodes my wife has had and Mini Me appears out of no where. (splitting) From your own understanding of this....are these where these distortions come from? Again....it was soooo long ago in my childhood....that I really cannot remember them even if and when I had them?
J
PS These appear in that instant moment of flight and fight you were talking about. As I said about losing control of my temper (those rare instances)...this is what I would call a distortion? That is an extreme case for me and very rare?
Yes. For sure, he has very
Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on
Yes. For sure, he has very distorted views and understanding of what's going on around him when we are in times of high conflict. Especially when I am pushed to the point of being really angry. He makes assumptions about me and what's going on that are usually way off. And then he gets into his idea that he is broken, because he is already assuming I am done when I am just upset. He has a habit of using me being upset as an excuse for further upsetting behavior, it's just a shitty vicious cycle.
Stacey....Same Question?
Submitted by kellyj on
What was your H's birth order in his family?
J
My H is the youngest of 2 -
Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on
My H is the youngest of 2 - but had some really sketchy family dynamics. Him and his sister were essentially raised apart in different households - both were abused horrifically by multiple members of their family - the people who should have loved and protected them! Their father was killed when H was 12 (he was a bad guy - abandoned them when he was a baby and his sister was a toddler - and was into alot of criminal activities). His beloved sister committed suicide in 1995. He has had some seriously warped experiences - never having any sort of "normal" to refer to in life. His struggles are significant and real - and I do believe almost ALL based in his family history. All of this weighs on him and still taunts him and controls him to this day. He is too afraid to deal with it and nothing I can do seems to help him.
I am the oldest and have a little brother. I had my own problems in my family dynamics - but they are very small and "normal" compared to my H. I dealt with emotional neglect and some minor abuse - all resolved as I got older. My parents went a little crazy with religion and really abandoned me quite a bit because of it - so I have my *own* issues to deal with. Trust, Abandonment, etc... I think thats why my love languages are solidly in the "words of affirmation" and "physical touch" side because I RARELY got that growing up. I was starved for it.
Stacy u said something interesting....
Submitted by c ur self on
But more than w/ me....
This is common also in my marriage and in studying it, I've found two reason's...One is what we've been discussing, avoidance of anything that might lead to a conversation about responsibility....With others she doesn't have the fear of something coming up where she would need to take ownership or be responsible....
Secondly because she deals w/ such a fast mind, and little short term memory she is only emotionally at ease talking...Or saying nothing.
If I view her as a happy 8 year old and only discuss the things an 8 year old could handle...(What do you want to eat? TV, Games, Travel, Visiting Family...Fun things for her) then we can go for days w/ very little communication break downs.....
If I expect her to be able to handle being self-aware enough to calmly discuss the management of finance's or House Chores or Husband Wife responsibilities in the marriage.... Forget it....that's instant conflict....
When a person is Defensive and Unapproachable about communication efforts that are offensive to them, you better recognize it and move on....I'm learning to Never swap my Peace for Anxiety because I couldn't accept reality....
C
Oh I get you there C. If I
Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on
Oh I get you there C. If I would not question anything and just make sure money flowed his way and set him up to do all his gaming etc and had NO expectations of companionship, conversation or anything at all - my H would probably be as happy as could be. But.... that leaves me nothing. Our conflict is directly resulted from my needs not being met, me trying to compromise and help him understand what my needs are (because I work overtime to meet his, compromise my own wants/desires/and even actual NEEDS to make sure he has what he wants).
I am left unfulfilled.
C - sometimes I just dont get what keeps you there. Do you WANT to be tied to someone you can only expect to have a child's level of participation? Dont you want a partner in life versus a pet? Sorry if that sounds harsh - but I just dont see what YOU are getting from this. You are absolutely the most patient person I have ever seen on any forum LOL. And I feel bad that it seems like all you do is give - and get nothing back, have no expectations of getting anything back, and living your life as if you are not in a marital relationship.
If that is the case then WHY? Why pay the emotional price, why sacrifice your future and happiness for someone who cant be bothered to return anything to you?
Yes Stacy, I would love to have that kind of a relationship...
Submitted by c ur self on
I said I do....and I will....This isn't my home!
I have no idea why she stay's....This is a little personal, but since you asked I will share part of a text I sent her two days ago....
If you are going to live w/ no convictions to honor your marriage Vows..Why are you staying? I don't even know you when our adult children are around, you cook, you clean you are all over them. The moment they leave and we are alone, you turn into an unapproachable victim, but, you are so deep in denial you want even admit that. It's obvious to the whole family all you love is your independence...You hate being a wife...Why do you stay? You've been unapproachable for most of our 8 years together. You have Zero Peace when it comes to honoring your wedding vows...So why do you stay? All you are doing is destroying our family. You have already destroyed our marriage. So why don't you seek out what will satisfy you with the remaining days God allows you to live? Why stay in your misery, and destroy my life also??
This is most of the text...If I was as miserable being married as she is, I think I would have been gone....A person can only feed off of appearances' for so long...Or at least I would think...
She never responded; and has seemed a little in shock since....She is use to dealing w/ my built up frustrations about this, which she can justify as all being my fault...
I think based on my lack of emotion lately she realizes I'm serious....
C
That's a Major Problem...
Submitted by kellyj on
in my eyes C. Wow....your really have your hands full. My wife is actually very responsible logistically speaking and in most other ways too. I've been trying to place our sensitivities and how they manifest themselves differently....but neither one of us sound as you described with your wife at all include her. With my wife...she regresses emotionally when we get into conflict and avoids any conversation to do with her in that way only.
Responsibility-taking in a general sense...is neither one of our problems. As it appears in my wife (which I do understand) she has to have a very tight control on her ability to manage herself....and it she loses that...she loses her ability and starts to fall apart and get really upset. Her tolerance for things to be the slight bit out of a very tight range...is what she has the most difficulty with. And that does have to do with the more normally associated things that was the norm for a (woman only) growing up when we did....so to speak.
Anything outside of what she has never done or did in her past ( just like me)....is what she will not get near to in a conversation if it involves me needing help from her even though...she requires this kind of double standard thinking on my part and with me...to do with helping her...but not going in the other direction.
This isn't a responsibility thing....this is an inability to adapt or change from a very rigid structure routine. At the same time....she does that thing...where she expects...or cannot understand why.....going the other way.....I should have the same problems on me end.with the things she wants....but don't ask to help, pitch in or do things in the things I know how to do well (the old school separation of. mans work and womans work)..and gets easily upset when I hit her with helping doing those things...and me requiring the same thing in return?
That really does fit into ADHD more from where I see it too.....being kind of myopic with a single mind....not so much a fast one where she can't see anything at all ?
Once I got her to see what she was asking of me...and why this was so hard for me to keep up with her...like snap!!!.....she's eased up and back off a lot...which is why that conversation about our past experiences was hugely beneficially. That was so hard for her to see...but once she saw it....I think she does?
It took pulling teeth to get there.....but also why I mention that doing nothing and caving in only from because of your spouses resistance and anger and getting upset when you try. Saying...doing nothing because that alone might not always be the best option. At least for me...it worked and I went with my gut base only my wife and what I saw.
Having said that C....from the sound of it....our wives are night and day apart in what you just described. That sounds extreme....and volatile!!! I'm sorry for you C....I can't imagine how difficult this is for you at times:(
J
Thanks guys...
Submitted by c ur self on
Thanks J...but as you know God is Awesome and I relish in his love, not what's coming from her....I just want to be a man who is thankful and at peace, and never count myself as a victim...
Man I've set here w/ out lunch....Got to get away from this computer....
I appreciate getting to share w/ you guys....
PS... I been doing so much better by not spending so much time on this site....Just getting on in life....J I did the 100 mile bike ride in 92 degree weather...And did 56 this past Saturday...Life is good:)
C
Awesome!!! C
Submitted by kellyj on
That deserves a gold medal. If they made a virtual one...I would send it via the internet. lol
J
Out of Curiosity Va
Submitted by kellyj on
What was your H's birth order with his siblings (if any?) years apart as well?
J
Baby
Submitted by vabeachgal on
Baby of 5. I think about 5 years younger than next oldest sibling. I am the oldest of 3 with large age differences between all of us.
Are You the Most Responsible?
Submitted by kellyj on
One of the 3 of you...by nature inherently?
J
No
Submitted by vabeachgal on
No, not at all. My baby sister is uber responsible and organized. My middle sister is 8 years younger than I am so half of my growing up years were spent in an only child environment. I was responsible at school because it was expected of me and it came easily to me. I was not very responsible at home and no one pushed it.
It was only after getting a house and having children that I got it together. There was too much to balance with work, children, activities and house to wing it. I got serious about it and created processes and organization to keep from getting overwhelmed. I put in place systems and accountability so I wouldn't drop balls. I'm good at it because it's my job, not my job because I'm good at it.
My wife likes to pick her jobs V...
Submitted by c ur self on
I'm good at it because it's my job, not my job because I'm good at it.
I'm just wondering where this comes from??
I had no Sister's, Dad left us when I was 5...Mom worked and was a disciplinary...I grew up learning to be very efficient in the home....When I asked my wife once in the first year of our marriage, If she was ever planning on meeting me half way w/ the cooking and cleaning.....She just stared at me and strolled over and looked me in the eye's and said....That's your gift, not mine!....That's been seven or more years ago...But, I think I said GIFT!...It's Survival!!
C
Put a Bow On It
Submitted by vabeachgal on
The good ol' "but you're so good at it" response !!!! hahahahaha or... ooops... "I didn't mean to ruin all of your clothes by putting dry cleaning articles in the wash.... guess I won't do laundry anymore. I wouldn't want to risk it. I can wash the towels."
It was survival for me. Demanding job, two active kids, lupus, house, not much help.... I had to learn to be efficient, but it's not my real nature. Since I get sick occasionally, I have to be prepared and efficient. My natural state is wine and popcorn for dinner.
It's caused a lot of friction in the house as you might imagine. My argument is always that I HAVE to do things, I don't get to choose what I will or will not do and I can't delegate and (stomping my foot) it's not fair.
Ironically, I was the oldest of 3 girls. My Dad could make/build anything... in fact, he built our house. I had better home repair and remodeling skills than household skills when I left home and maintained my wine and popcorn lifestyle as long as I could.
I hear you V...
Submitted by c ur self on
I get that too..."But your better at it than I am".....So What...I get a lot more practice...LOL....
C ya!
I think I will pop some pop corn....I give up the wine....I don't need any help...
C
Ha! Ghosts of the Past Va
Submitted by kellyj on
I had to laugh....this is the reverse with my wife and I....how wierd can things get? lol
"I didn't mean to ruin all of your clothes by putting dry cleaning articles in the wash.... guess I won't do laundry anymore. I wouldn't want to risk it. I can wash the towels."
Giving myself credit where credit is due. Laundry...is something I'm good at doing. I read labels...change settings....I do it right. And I never ruin clothes!! I wear my clothes out....I don't throw them away from ruining them right?
My wife won't let me near the laundry. I've never ruined one article of clothing of her's yet. You name it...bra's panties, wool etc To the point....I had to show her what Woolite was? lol
But...she's somehow convinced I can't do it right. I don't mind letting her do it....it's literally....she won't let me out some fear she has that I can't but with no proof otherwise????
Having said that....I know why she has this fear and it's not from me but from her past experiences with men doing her laundry. She's told me so.....but can't get past that in her head....even though....I've never ruined any of her clothes and probably am more careful about than she is??
Fear and ghosts from that past.......those mental blocks will do a number on you. This is a big one for me to get past with her but I'm working on it slowly.
J
Baby
Submitted by vabeachgal on
Baby of 5. I think about 5 years younger than next oldest sibling. I am the oldest of 3 with large age differences between all of us.
Hi Vabeachgal....to understand....
Submitted by c ur self on
Just do not think he can communicate or be like you..
.I'm not trying to diagnose anyone, but much of the conflict in my marriage early on and even now comes when I let my guard down and think she can communicate like I do....Everyone is different, but, when a mind is having to work so hard to grasp concepts, and feel emotions, to stretch them out as a spouse you will more times than not get blanked or anger at least that's been my experience....
Read the posts, I've read thousands over the past 2 or 3 years... So I suggest we accept it and try to not let their living of life dominate our thoughts, You will have to focus on your life, and seek a healthy existence for yourself. I do not plan on cheating or leaving my wife, but, I accept it for it is.....
It only gets worse when we can't accept the person we love and live with.
I understand your frustrations as so many here do...I think most situations are workable (where there is no abuse) if we don't allow ourselves to start manipulating or attempting to force change on another adult....That wreaks of Control and Enablement....All that comes from that is our own Anger and Bitterness....And I for one had rather be alone....
C
Same Question C.....
Submitted by kellyj on
What was your wife's birth order in her family?
J
Birth Order.....
Submitted by c ur self on
She's the baby of three girls....
I'm the middle child of three boys....
C
Interesting C, Va , Stacey
Submitted by kellyj on
I would be remiss in not saying the obvious and what my wife and I have talked about successfully over. I see this so much in my oldest sister too which is why I brought this up. This is in part...connected to our dynamic and it has nothing to do with ADHD. (aside from Staceys account of her husband....way out of the norm I would say )
But within the norm...and the time that I grew up ( 60's )...I'll tell you the same thing I did to my wife since her childhood was not on average...in the norm either. This is kind of the obvious that I think might get overlooked sometimes.
I did grow up in a nuclear family environment. And my father worked...and my mothers job was full time to do with the house. And nearly everyone in the new neighborhood I grew up in at the time...was pretty consistently the same way.
Not my mothers fault...or the fault of my generation either...but I clearly remember my mother telling me...."when you grow up.........." basically saying....it will be just like this for you so these are the things that are within your future responsibility. As put.
Cleaning the house and keeping it orderly....was not in the job description. At all. I had my job duties outlined and I did them without a problem. They were always...outdoors, garden, lawn, house painting, home (repairs, car repair maintenance etc.....)
The biggest dis-service to me not knowing the future....was not having any expectation put on me to do these things (at all ) aside from only a few which was to get my laundry to the laundry room, vacuum the carpets in around the places I made messes including getting dishes to the sink etc.....and that was it.
What I did do....was all the lawn, garden and everything else...so that division of labor and what my mom did...and what my dad didn't do....never overlapped.
And so not to sound like I'm making excuses.....but to say...having ADHD....not doing these things AT ALL and never being required to do them....just makes it that much harder to learn later and establish that into my routine since it was really.....never there before or expected of me. I did do my part whichy also included garbage collection and anything along those lines so I put in my time just like everyone else....but it had nothing to do with maintaining and keeping a neat and tidy house. All that was required...was to get what ever...in the general vincinity so my mom didn't have to go and a hunt for everyones dirty dishes or laundry and then she took it from there. I had one day (usually Saturday morning) that I did that for the week and then that was it. One day a week.....was the norm for my part at home in our household and this did become a lifelong pattern which is also problematic since now.....you can't do it effectively in one day and in the mean time....it gets too far out of whack and is just more than you feel like doing all at once.
Going back to my mom telling me "when you grow up......." Things didn't work out that way, and that wasn't my mothers fault for thinking it would? It's what everyone I knew.... knew....for the most part. But trying to change later in life having ADHD....seems to be the biggest problem I've had for that reason alone.
That in itself....can and is overwhelming to try and break an old habit and form a new one you never had....by no ones fault including my own.
And as I saw in my oldest sister too....she is a lot more responsibility conscious...than either myself or my middle sister. This pattern seems to be pretty consistent especially when your the first or last one in family order.
This had not occured to my wife when I really sat down and talked to her about why this was so hard to do for me at times ie: be on constant lookout and picking up as I go...to really do a good job at doing my fair share.
As I see it....ADHD has less to do with this...and more to do with a family situation....that no longer exists in my world at least. Simply not being required to do it before...and then suddenly haveing the old dog learn over night....has been a tough one and is not ADHD related at all....just more difficult I think?
Just my two bits into this because this really is.....and was......a dis service in my ability to do this now to a level I've never be able to accomplish before (and the reason why that is in part outside of ADHD)
J
Good ol' days
Submitted by jennalemone on
I had the same family structure as you. Mom did in-house things. Dad did outdoors things. Division of labor was pretty set. Dad made all the money for the family. Mom had time to embroider and "put up" fruits and vegetables and take care of all the kids and the house, clothes, food, events, holidays.
As I see it....ADHD has less to do with this...and more to do with a family situation....that no longer exists in my world at least. Simply not being required to do it before...and then suddenly haveing the old dog learn over night....has been a tough one and is not ADHD related at all....just more difficult I think?
I had to learn how to spend 10 hours a day working a full time job with commuting AND doing the housework. All the while looking at H sitting on the sofa (like our fathers did) on a Saturday and Sunday while I ran around doing ALL the housework and take the kids to their events. I was not required to do any more than you when I was growing up....just help when there was no homework. That no longer exists, as you said for me either.
Why is it different for you? Try being a woman in this generation. THEN ALSO, be sure to get a portion of the wage that your male peers make on the job because "women don't have to support a family".
I just had to get that out. Couldn't hold back, J. It's not because a person can't be taught new tricks. It's hard to change, but we do it. If someone can't or won't do it, someone else has to do it for them or it doesn't get done. THAT IS WHAT THIS WHOLE SITE IS ABOUT.
That is what I find so disappointing about H. It is TOO HARD for him to do his fair share.....OR he is not aware of the situation he puts me in. Not aware or doesn't care. Yet, when I tell him of the inequities and ask for his help, he acts like there is something wrong with me for asking him to do something and letting him know what he could do to help.
I really am starting to accept that he is lazy and that works OK for him....doesn't want to think about it or he might have to be bothered to make a change in his ways. He doesn't care what I think of him....he prefers his leisure to loving me and working together. It's just easier for him.
Jenna - we should start a
Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on
Jenna - we should start a gang :-) I swear you and I are living parallel lives sometimes!
I Think You are In Your Right to Say This Jenna
Submitted by kellyj on
It works both ways and you make a very good pointl. I'm not letting myself off the hook here....but keep in mind...when I say "snap"....I mean...one day it one way and bam....,what;s wrong with you!!!!! LOL
Over night was not a realistic goal but it hasn't prevented from doing it anyway. I would have appreciated a little more time however to prepare. lol
If I were to rat out your husband and tell you what I have experienced personally. Do do what I'm doing...requires some sacrifices along the way....one of them....is picking up the pace quite a bit and not be so leisurely about things anymore.
Sacrifficing "leisure" is what you have to do.....end of story. Or at the very least....some of that leisure time has to go.
As I sit her typing. lol My arm/shoulder is better....I'm stepping back into full time again. I've taken the last week to rest it up a bit and heal and a few less physical things since my arm was not healing before until I gave it a break...........no rest for the wicked right?
Back at it...as of now. lol
J
Frying it up in a pan
Submitted by jennalemone on
Oh, yes. SNAP....CHANGE. I forgot, when we "had" to get married, I also had a colicky baby who I had to hand off to babysitters (there was no day care in those days) and try to have a motherly relationship with. All while working full time and doing all the housework. H, couldn't get the hang of (changing is sooooooo hard you know) not stopping off at the bar for a few HOURS with the guys most every night of the week while i stood with a hot dinner waiting for him. Today that looks like I was just stupid, but women thought we HAD to do all those things. The working full time had not sunk in to anyone's social conscience...that a man could help with a baby and housework after the wife worked just as many hours as the man....why...why....why.....That was just unthinkable! But us women DID IT ALL! Talk about a situation changing in a SNAP!!!!! Now I had a husband to worry about too because he was not trustworthy. He was a sales man and I was buying something that was not even there.
H said to me "I'm glad I wasn't born a woman. They have to work so hard." He actually thought that was a kind thing to say to me and he couldn't understand why I was offended by that. He didn't understand HIS PART in that situation.
What is up w/ us men?
Submitted by c ur self on
If men would learn to work beside their wife changing those dirty diapers and helping w/ those hot suppers, and dishes...They would find out other things heat up a lots easier...:)
C
Lol That's Right C
Submitted by kellyj on
What's wrong with us??? lol I'm acknowledging you Jenna....not making excuses. I have no leg to stand on since I don't have kids but.....I've heard. I humble myself here....as they say "a mans gotta do...what a mans gotta do" sometimes....it's not what we want to do either. lol
J
Amen!!!!!
Submitted by jennalemone on
Thanks for saying that,C.
OH Yes!!!!! Add to the list of homemaker's work....make sure your hubby is satisfied in all ways. H was a traveling salesman. In those days he often said to me, "If a wife doesn't take care of her man, he must go elsewhere. That is just how a man is made." also, "Absence makes the heart WANDER. hehehe." And I was so naive that I took care of his needs (lest I be blamed for HIS indiscretions), the collicky baby, the house, our social calendar, and worked full time sharing a ride with my neighbor to work. HE bought himself an MGB because HE was depressed after the baby was born!
So, J, let's add up those things in those days that we had to SNAP change quickly about out daily lives! Before that I had an apartment and a job and a personhood I could be proud of. After marriage I became the maid, the nanny, the wage earner, the accountant, the chef, his "girl on call". Women are willing to be all those things if they are appreciated and reciprocated. But when the wife is seen as a tool or not seen or heard at all, we make fools of ourselves, trying to love too hard.
This just brought out something in me that needed to get out!
Jenna......It's Good to Get It Out
Submitted by kellyj on
It sounds as if you are coming to a strong place where you will be able to make a stand. I applaud you for doing that and it sounds as if your hubby took advantage of having his "girl on call" for too long. There is something in there however, that has never sat well with me. I'm not stereotypical in that way either and it is something I've had to pay a price for....as hard as I have tried not to be that way myself. I don't even want to try and defend against something I have no control of either. It is something I have to accept or just be resentful of as well. It does not good to see things globally and think that everyone is the same in this way.
Having said that.....I actually feel very much like you do when I hear the stories of men who are willing to let women serve them as if they have some kind of entitlement to that only because of what they saw in the past which I feel....is quickly coming to an end with our generation. I really think when the baby boomers are all dead and gone.....it will no longer be an issue in the same way.
I can't blame my parents for what they did not know either. When I think of my father born in 1918...and my mother born in 1925....it makes me stop and take inventory of a time that was beyond my comprehension.
You and I are very lucky to have been born in a time of prosperity. We really have no concept of the struggles that took place only 10 or 15 years before we took our first breath on this earth. Can you imagine....having to go out into the street and sell newspapers on a street corner at 10 years old in the heart of a large city full of desperate people who were just trying to get enough food to eat? Then come home and throw the few bits of coin on the table and give that to your parents to feed your family?
Our parents must of thought they had died and gone to heaven by the time we were born in comparison to what they went through to get there? I have to take this into consideration....any time I feel like I had it all that bad?
What I had...was like living at Disneyland compared to the stories I heard from both my parents.
Honestly Jenna....I think we are an anomaly and we were the crack that needed to filled with no rules in the book that really could be applied go us. I've discussed this with most of my friends...and we all agree that the time and the circumstances that we grew up in.....were a first and last and never will be again. We are the transition people.....those before and after us...will never know what we know both good and bad.
As I see it Jenna....this is really no ones fault but also saying....some of us can see it...and others simply cannot. This is what I truly believe so I hesitate to pass judgment based on the past or even the present since as transition people....we were the guinea pigs of evolution of the species and happened fall right smack in the middle of change. Some changed with the times....others did not. I really can't fault anyone who got comfortable with what was....and never stopped to look out the window and see the time going by.
For what it's worth?
J
DeJaVou....
Submitted by kellyj on
Wow....I just had a very weird flashback to something you said Jenna. It took me a minute and then I realized where I heard it before...
"Women are willing to be all those things if they are appreciated and reciprocated....."
This was almost word for word what my dear old Mom tried to tell me a very long time ago....and I believed her and proceeded accordingly.
I'm not going to say you are wrong Jenna and I as heard my mother say this to me....I believe she believed it too.
My own experience with following this path as she taught me....proved to be a fatal error in not understanding the way things really are. In reality....and this is not it I can tell you. From experience....the one where I followed this bad advise and ended up right where I am with years of hear ache to back me up.
As I'm saying this.....there was a time when this might have been true.....but that is not the reality in which we live in anymore....speaking from experience and learning this the hard way.
J
I am sure you are right about
Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on
I am sure you are right about this. I do think that our earliest education in humanities (what we learn in our homes from our family dynamics) really is where we build our life tendencies on. And if you add ADHD or ADD or any other disorder really on top of disfunctional early experience, and poor family dynamics- it can be that much more difficult to manage the disorder - from the sheer weight of the trauma and stress of the childhood home life.
I dont think it can be used as an excuse though, it has to be aknowledged and dealt with - but not positioned as a crutch to support negative/bad behavior.
My husband for 7 years only did the BARE minimum when it came to any chores or managing the household - and ONLY after I have begged pleaded etc. Even though it was literally his ONLY job - he was a stay at home husband with the promise of "i will run the household, you bring home the bacon".
I know I have pointed it out a few times over the last 2 weeks - but its now almost 3 weeks into this "new" H routine - and he has been actually keeping things clean. He has a few stalls, and a few times when he had to push to catch up - but overall, he has been sticking to it. For 3 weeks, our house has been cleaner than it EVER HAS BEEN while he lived here (outside of when we were selling the old house and had to keep it immaculate for showings - thank god that only was for a month LOL). I truly am impressed and grateful. I am still scared to death to rock the boat! I do want to tell him its appreciated, but I dont want him to think "ok - I did it, now I can stop" LOL. Anyway - sorry I side tracked, but your post got me thinking about the division of labor and chores etc.
Its been a relief to me to be comfortable in a fairly clean home for the last 3 weeks and NOT be the one stressing about it. :-)
Duty Was Big In Our House...Stacey
Submitted by kellyj on
So duty is easy for me. See the pattern? Just like you said. Oh...by the way....I lived in a neat house growing up....and I don't like messes or things not being neat and tidy. Again....I don't accept it for myself...so I do something about it. Duty means.....not having anyone else do it make excuses.
I can always be thankful of learning this when I grew up. No one has to make me do it....I want to.
J
My Own Conclusion is Validated V
Submitted by kellyj on
I just wanted to come back and tell you what I think here. This article backs it up too. It's an inverse relationship but a complicated one for sure.
In an uncomplicated and in complete way....the worse off you had it and more overt the early symptoms (the worse case scenario with hyper-active ADHD which was me from everything I was told ) the worse the adverse punishment....somehow gets translated into better emotional identification including sadness as a big factor. It appears as if sadness, memory of trauma, and anxious-preoccupied attachment all lead to the conclusion of what happened with me. This appears to be from what that article suggests.....why I ended up the way I did...and actually was a benefit in the long run?
So...the worse the early expereince....the better your later one gets in relationship to memory and emotions and being able to control, identify and regulate them and NOT have alexithymia and flooding of emotions?
What's wierd and also validating this for me? I only remember having any real emotional problems very early. Really early along with those memories? Any real emotional lability that I can actually remember...is really far back when I was still very young? Even later in my teens....I can't recall much in that way at all? The oldest I can recall was while I was still in grade school?
I guess....God gives those who had it bad early a break? lol I'm taking that and running with it and being Thankful. lol
J
Very interesting read and I
Submitted by Furby withbentears on
Very interesting read and I tested moderate.....But when you get the shit beat out of you what else would you expect?
Personal Battle Emerges....The Truth Be Told
Submitted by kellyj on
Very interesting read and I tested moderate.....But when you get the shit beat out of you what else would you expect?
Furby,
My T accessed me as moderate too. But as I read the second half of what you said about."what would you expect?" Honestly? I wasn't sure....but it's no big surprise either? (at this point....I always default to Newtons 3rd Law of "opposite and equal reaction and that always seems to work? LOL I think Newton was on to something??? LOL )
But that also supports something that was brought up as a comment about me being....a "Plural Guy" for the most part. (I believe NowOrNever mentioned this ). This is not something I spent any time thinking about....but she is right....I am that way about most anything and for the most part...(for me at least)...this is a good thing.
I can sum that up in one catch phrase that I'd say describes me well....." take the good, with the bad"....an accept it as part of life....period. I took the "good with the bad" and that's just the way life works? There aren't lot of expectations that come from that since you never know what life will bring you? In essence....you just plug the one armed bandit with a quarter....yank the handle....and see what comes up? And then do it again until you finally hit the Jackpot. And then....you do it again and keep plugging the machine and paying the man as you go. The "House"...always has the advantage in any game of chance when gambling and you know that going in. The "House" (and the man....will always win....you may win...or you may not win...but the advantage goes to the House...always) You can be pissed...that the game is rigged in their favor and refuse to play. Or if you play....you can always be angry every time you lose because of the inequity that the "Man" creates....but what's the point anyway? To be angry all the time...or to enjoy yourself and be in the game? Some days....you win. Other days...you lose. This IS to be expected so losing is just taking the good, with the bad? Right? No one promised you a Rose Garden? Side note: What am I going to do with a Rose Garden anyway??? They're a pain in the ass and get full of Aphids and you got to keep pruning them and fussing with them even though...the flowers are nice?? LOL ( I live in a climate where Roses are everywhere just so you know? lol)
The Truth be told...or in part......last night with my wife as she actually shared her feelings with me which was a really poignant moment for me to observe.
She started by saying that she is really sad and how she feels as if she is losing her entire family. Since her mothers death...she has done little actually grieving so this I saw as a good thing. But when I tried to empathize with her and relate my experiences with her in an effort to connect....she got annoyed???? I did not take offense...but it felt like I was being pushed away again. (which I was) Okay....par for the course...what next??
As she spoke to me....she told me "you know, people just wanted to be heard sometimes and not have you say anything." This was a little unusually since she was the one who actually brought it up and was talking to me...I wasn't saying anything? Okay.....so you want to talk and not have anyone SAY one word? Okay...done deal....now what? (as I sat there in silence and just listened to her.)
She then turned to me and said...."I know you are just trying to empathize, or sympathize, or connect with me or what ever?????" Stop right there (my internal dialog speaking) She's not sure what I was doing...but she knew it was annoying only?? I was empathizing with her for sure...like I have done countless times with her getting annoyed? mmmmm??? Empathy is annoying, huh? But she did bring up Sympathy and what I saw her doing was feeling sorry for her self even if it was appropriate to do in a moment like this...up to a point.
So I sat there...and thought about this and thought....she wants Sympathy....not Empathy....I'm not giving her what she wants? Okay....I get it...she does not want to connect...she wants sympathy from me and that's why she's annoyed? No surprise there either....so I continued moving forward in our interchange...as it was.
When she was finally done....describing how I was not doing what she wanted and how I was doing it wrong...I just sat there in silence and there was this long pause but at the same time....my wife looking at me or I could feel she wanted some kind of acknowledgement? Okay.....so I acknowledged her by saying..."I'm not sure I know what to say...or what you want from me but it seems like you want some Sympathy? Is that what you want? I'm sorry I immediately go to empathy...since that's what I need in times like this which always makes me feel better so that's what I did...because I wish I knew what to say to take some of your pain away? It's just my first natural response...that's all?"
When I'm in a situation like that...and I'm feeling all alone in the world....."I'm sorry...doesn't cut it for me. I want to feel connected to someone so I don't feel so alone and this was not what my wife wanted...and only wanted that "I'm sorry....ONLY????" In my mind....that's just Pity???? (or Pathos...which ever you prefer ) Which is weird since I'm already sad.....I don't want to be sadder????? But in that moment...I could see the entirely of so many conflicts and fights we've had....over this very thing and not being able to predict or know what my wife wants. The last thing I want is Pity.....and yet....it's the only thing my wife wants but can't really explain it to me other than to tell me how I'm doing it wrong...with actually saying what "IT" is again. There's the "IT" right there....or is it the 'Id"? Moving on....
After not interjecting myself into what she was saying...she finally came to a couple of things that really shown a light on something that has never come up before exactly but it was an Epiphany for me which has to do with my Plural way of thinking.
As she said it..."I'm sorry...sometimes I find your style of communicating offensive." LOL...nothing new there!!!!! But in context to me being empathetic and not sympathetic and Pitying my wife....I suddenly had a light bulb moment!!!! That's it. My wife wants Pity...and I won't give it to her!!!!!! Yureka....pay dirt!!!!! And she finds that offensive??? Yeah well.....that;s her opinion. Most people including myself...don't find Pity all that attractive or want to be Pittied. I certainly don't...and it's the last thing I'm going to do naturally...when I see someone in pain. For me....Pity....just makes it feel worse and sadder than I already am. but real empathy and connecting with a person through your own Pity in the past as a way to be empathetic or just to open with...usually works so why doesn't this work with my wife??????????
So then...the conversation takes an interesting turn. It started to get more hostile in tone and she began taking on a different demeanor when she brought up her mother and how her mother taught her some things that were not good. But as she described this....I heard the ambivalence and conflicting ideas she was sharing with me in her conclusions and this is where I started to join into this conversation with my own two bits on the subject.
As she began to say from her heart and the truth that she believed both....from her mother and what she was wrong about....and what she felt and the parts that her mother was right about...and this is where it all broke open and finally saw what I am battling against with my wife and have been endlessly which (as my T has said....is not ME ) I finally saw last night....what is not ME and what is ME...in between...the way my wife feels....and how she feels about (not only ME....but men and women in general ) I knew it had something to do with her mother....but it now has nothing to do with her mother...and is all about HER.
This is the summation of what my wife beleives is true...which is what she told me her mother believed...but how that was Bad.....but Not Bad....at the same time. AMBIVALENCE 101 HERE. LOL
Now in context....this is what my wife beleives is true...and is true for the most part....about and FOR every one everywhere and the way things should be. (should and suppose to....but not really true )
As she put it (in her words)...."my mom was angry because it was not fair that she had to work and then come home and take care of EVERYTHING else too. Her many husbands wanted to be just like men have always been and just work and come home and have their wives cook and clean and have to do EVERYTHING."
This is true...but here's the deal. Her mother was the one who left ALL these men....they didn't leave her mother. Her mother "chose" to leave because as she saw it....these "Men"...were taking advantage of women and making them work and clean house both...and it was not fair. This is an age old dilemma with not simple answer but....it really changed a lot....once we were born in comparison to those "men" her mother was choosing. Her mother....also "chose" alcoholics because she was one herself.....see the picture?
ALL THOSE MEN out there everywhere...are persecuting women any chance they get. ALL OF THEM...EVERYWHERE....AND IT'S NO DIFFERENT TODAY AND NOTHING HAS CHANGED.
The problem with this thinking on her mother end was the alcoholism for one just to start with. As she was told by her mother repeatedly..."you can't trust anyone....or they'll screw you over." as said and taught to my wife which that part...she doesn't actually believe or believed even then. She use to try and debate this with her mother repeatedly as told...but her mother never left that position and this "Attitude" she had.
I met her mother....she was the walking epitome of a "Bad Attitude" and was bitter and resentful of her life in general. But WTF here? He mother "picked" alcoholic men...and then left them because of the problems this caused her. But SHE was an alcoholic herself....who did not see herself that way and was in denial of the most important aspect to why she felt that way. I'm sure....she justified...having to drink....because of how awful she had it because these "men" were all taking advantage of her? "Pity me you fool.....I had to do it!!!"
OMG!!! It's like every Perry Mason episode that ever existed where right at the end when the murderer was exposed and broke down in the courtroom...."Don't you understand.....I HAD TO DO IT!!!!!"
NO!!!!....NO!!!!!!...you didn't HAVE to kill anyone!!!! You could have done 1,000 things...instead of that ONE????? NO!!!!!!!! What kind of Fucked Up thinking is that?????
So now...I interject a couple of things into this by asking her a round about question to this kind of thinking. I asked or said....."It sounds like...your Mom had some kind of "cause" or "torch" she was carrying on behalf of all women and was bitter that things just didn't "snap"...to her liking...all of a sudden over night???"
My wife didn't like that much but said...."well that the problem....everyone is like you and are apathetic to the plight of people who are being mistreated and suffer. It's shown that apathy is the biggest reason why nothing ever changes."
While that may SOUND good.....it was out of context to what I was saying. I said.."well yes....apathy is not a good thing for society....but those constructs that have been created over the millennia...are changing but there has been major shifts that took place since your mom and her parents were born. This shit gets passed along by our parents and you got it too the same as I did. But besides the point of society....I'm talking about two people in a relationship....I could give a Rats Ass to a certain degree....if my next door neighbors husband is a chauvinistic asshole? That ain't my problem and neither is the one his wife has to deal with because of it. There is what's possible to do....and even what you should do....and what I want to do more than anything...is not fight period. I don't want to fight with you....I don't want to fight my neighbors fight....I don't want to fight any gender battles...I don't want to fight or take on anyones "cause" but my own and personally...I don't have a "cause" and don't want one...thank you very much."
I then asked her if she knew why I did not belong to any Political party and was an independent...which really is frustrating because you can't just not have a label or be in some kind of party even if you don't want to have to pick one or be a part of one. "Independent"....is STILL considered a party??????
She said "no, not really?"
It's because....I don't want to fight!!!! The second you join one...you are picking a side. And there is this ongoing battle going on that never stops and I want no part of it. I want the part where I get to vote for a President...but I don't want to have to fight about it with anyone or pick a side in order to do so. There are plenty of causes and battles to fight out there....I just choose not to fight one....I've got my own personal problems to deal with and my own challenges to fight and that's enough for one person and all I can handle. There's PLENTY of people out there who like to fight....I'm just not one of them. They don't need any help from me...that much I'm sure of. In fact.....what I've found most troubling of all....is that people WANT you to pick a side and fight....even when you don't want to. And they are always pushing you to take up a cause or side...and if you don't...they get pissed at you. It's one thing to be undecided or on the fence....it's another one to be decidedly not in the fight...so there is not fight in the first place and no fence to be on is there??? I'd rather swim down stream...instead of against the current and there's nothing wrong with that if everyone else wants to go the other direction. I don't care!!!!" LOL
And that was the Epiphany. My wife is angry...when people won't join her and her mom and the rest of the victims out there...who refuse to take personal responsibility for the "Cause" of their own plight...and have a chip on their shoulder because it doesn't serve them not to?
I realized....it's not my communication "style" or the way I communicate that offends my wife....it's what I believe...and what I believe...is that I'm not obligated to fight anyone or take up a cause ...and there is nothing wrong with that.,...Plus......there is nothing wrong with seeing both sides equally and taking the good with the bad...one in the same?
I told her last night.."in fact....I wish all those people who need to take up a cause and go to battle with one another.....would get a bunch of weapons massed together....go to some deserted island somewhere...and go to town with each other...and just leave me the Hell out of it. I'm "Passive!!!"....I don't want to fight. And I don't take up pet agendas or causes so I can keep fighting....just for the Hell of it?? You're Mom...had a chip on her shoulder the size of Texas...and she constantly fighting against something and using that as an excuse to be a victim and feel sorry for herself indefinitely. Besides...she was the one who left....these "men" that she picked to be with anyway? How could she be angry about having to work and come home and feed you kids when she could have stayed with you father in the first place?"
In this case....her father was by all accounts....not the best person but....I have my own suspicions about those stories too.....the same ones that were told my wife by ......WHO AGAIN? Her mother????? And what was it that her mother wanted more than anything??? For everyone to feel sorry for her...because she had it soooooo bad????
BULLSHIT. That what I have to say about that!!! LOL
J
External Locus of Identity: Personality Crisis = Conflict
Submitted by kellyj on
Personality Crisis ( by David Johansson and Johnny Thunder..The New York Dolls )
Well we can't take it this week
And her friends don't want another speech
Hoping for a better day to hear what she's got to say
All about that
Personality crisis you got it while it was hot
But now frustration and heartache is what you got
(That's why they talk about personality)
But now your tryin' to be some, no you got to do some
Want to be someone who cow wow wows
But you think about the times you did they took every ounce
Well it sure got to be a shame, when you start to scream and shout
You got to contradict all those times you were butterflyin' about
All about that personality crisis you got it while it was hot
But now frustration and heartache is what you got
And you're a prima ballerina on a Spring afternoon
Change on into the wolfman, howlin' at the moon, ow-hooooo
All about that personality crisis you got it while it was hot
But now frustration and heartache is what you got
Now with all the crossin' fingers that mother nature says
Your mirrors get jammed up with all your friends
That personality everything starts to blend
Personality when your mind starts to blend
Personality impression of a friend,
Of a friend, of a friend, of a friend, of a friend
Personality wonderin' how celebrities ever met
(Look and find out on television)
Personality crisis you got it while it was hot
Frustration and heartache is all you got, don't you worry
Personality crisis please don't cry
It's just a personality crisis, please don't stop
Because you walk a personality
Talk a personality
my wife " I have an image of what I want in a relationship and I don't get that with you. I have never been with someone who didn't desire me the way you don't and this makes me so unhappy. I don't think we are well matched at all and I think I'm done. I just speak my mind and say what I feel."
forbearance
for·bear·ance
noun: forbearance
patient self-control; restraint and tolerance.
"forbearance from taking action"
synonyms:tolerance, patience, resignation, endurance, fortitude, stoicism;
leniency, clemency, indulgence;
restraint, self-restraint, self-control
"we are proud of the forbearance you have demonstrated during these difficult weeks"
Law
the action of refraining from exercising a legal right, especially enforcing the payment of a debt.
Enforcing? Deciding? Confusing words and meanings? Patience? Tolerance? You, You, You !!
According to my wife...these are the ways I have failed her in that....I failed to mirror her as she believes or sees herself as which come in the form of these repetitive episodes that always appear when she has been alone for too long? I asked her why and this is what she said " When I'm alone with myself for too long...with and all those thoughts racing through my head I can't tolerate it and need to be with others. I do have abandonment issues and this part of it."
I'm beginning to see a troubling pattern emerge and I am now rethinking my own thoughts about my wife's values even though she states they are the same as mine? At this point....I don't trust that she even knows who she is or what she is talking about and her values are really only concerned with one thing.....me. In other words...her self worth is directly tied to me which means...without me or someone else present...she doesn't know who she is? She will say on one hand that she is not clingy and this much is true...but on the other hand she is needy and needy beyond belief. Her identity, personality and her self image are all tied to me in some way and she is dependent of me to mirror her so she knows who she is? Without me there to validate her or reassure her of who she is ....she has no idea and that's when she starts spiraling out of control. Her identity as a person it seems....is actually "lack of one"...and she seems dependent on others to tell her who she is? Without the ability to know who she is without some external representation there to mirror her so she can actually have an identity....she becomes angry and resentful and spitefully accusatory which I am now really seeing ...which is so unhealthy on every level I can think of...that I realize now why I am having so much trouble trying to figure her out? The point is....there is literally nothing there to figure out in the first place when someone is devoid of personality or their own and needs another person to do this for them? And when I don't do this for her....she gets angry?
It's that bottomless black hole I see her go down in which nothing I do or say makes a bit of difference to her mood. When she starts to spiral...and especially if this causes me a problem and I even mention it....she starts to come unglued at the seems and that's when she threatens to leave every time. It's like a person who is only 1/2 a person ..and they need someone else to fill in what is missing? I can't tell you how disturbing this is too me and it goes directly against my own values and what I value most. Independence and interdependence in a relationship and NOT...being co-dependent which is why the conflict? I suddenly realized that this goes directly against her need for me to fill in and mirror her the way she needs to be mirrored which if anything else...is completely dishonest. She can't hear the truth....because it goes against what she believes which is so screwed up I don't know where to begin? What it appears to me as....that real Love is a perversion in terms and this is the most troubling of all? I don't need anyone to validate me or tell me who I am. I know that as well as anyone and this is not a problem for me? What is a problem for me...could be termed as a succubus...or demon who needs to take from others and gives nothing in return? This is what I have such a struggle with in compassion because to be compassionate in the face of a "taker"....I have little patience with people of this "ilk" and that's a problem for me. If there is always strings attached to everything...then real Love and real genuine caring is just an illusion along with the self image that only exists through others? I honestly took inventory of my own feelings about this..and have found pretty quickly that I do not respect this quality at all!! That's putting it mildly? If anything...I find it most unattractive which I've now come to realize....why my attraction to my wife sexually has waned so severely? What I find most sexually and physically attractive is more dependent of the interior of another person...than the exterior and this is why my attraction or even more importantly....my desire and motivation to do anything for my wife in terms of what she wants...feels like I'm being used or just a "thing" she needs to fill in the black hole that never can be filled. Every time I try and get near her or close to her...she repels me by her insatiable need for me to validate who she is which means...she doesn't care about who I am...as long as I'm who she needs me to be...based on her "dreams". She is literally sucking from me...like a baby bird with their mouth wide open and squawking for there mother to feed them? This explains to me a lot...and especially when I get sick or am having a bad day and she has no ability to comfort me? OMG...it just the opposite...my needs, wants and desires...are an inconvenience which she reports back to me in the form of complaining and ridicule and this irritates her and I feel her annoyance at anything that I might need for her since this is already taking away from her...what she doesn't possess in the first place?
No one wonder I blurted out a while ago....."I'M NOT....FOR YOU!!!! " And my feelings along these lines...are not all that far off the mark?
Remembering what she told me once that her ex husband said to her....." No matter what I do...it's never enough for you." "Black Hole of despair"...and the pain from having no personalty or identity of her own? I think so?
The problem for me is.....that I realize I will never get anything of value from my wife as long as she can't find a way past this...but I'm also seeing that any expectations on my part in this ever happening are slim to none? This isn't from lack of faith or from lack of optimism. On the contrary...my optimism and having faith in people is the very thing being challenged? Being realistic is more the case and in reality....I see no real hope for her gaining an identity at age 60....even she's never had one before? I actually pity her more than anything...but at the same time...it repels me and pushes me away?
What to do about this...I have yet come to any real conclusions about for myself in weighing what I need...and what I'm willing to live without? Living without real Love....is a deal breaker for me and my wife at it appears...only has a fantasy of romantic childish teenage dreams that have never been fulfilled? And you wonder why?
External Locus of control...is like looking at a bill board from a distance and thinking it looks real nice....until you get there and look behind it...to see nothing but a flat board with a pretty picture on it? One dimensional with no substance or volume to speak up with a depth that is only as think as the paper it's printed on. It's fake, shallow and superficial...in other words and is just an illusion.
I find this both disheartening...and tragic both...at the same time?
I will always remember a long time ago...my wife blurting out "You don't need anyone!!! " In respect to her now....as she appears to have meant that.....I very happy that I don't which for the most part....I don't? I can live perfectly happily all by myself...if being with another person only takes away from what I already posses and own? You cannot Love anyone in my mind...if you cannot give freely with no strings attached which means....I will not be Loved any time soon from my wife in the real Love" way...and feel I will always have to settle for less than I have to give which is making me reconsider our relationship now...in lue of the fact that she not looking at me as someone who can meet her needs...and I predict..she will go elsewhere eventually in that these contrant idle threats to leave as a form of manipulation on her part...will eventually come to fruition...the more secure and more I pursue my own happiness...which is compromised when with someone who "sucks" the life out of you and gives nothing in return with no appreciation for what she feels...she needs to survive?
Her values it seems...are all screwed up despite what she says which are just lies IMHO. The biggest lie of course...is she actually knows who she is or has an identity of her own?
J