Dumb though it may seem, I'd like a non-ADHD partner's view on what comes to mind when you think of these three things. I've been told multiple times that this is how my wife wants me to put the brakes on a runaway argument. Between nursing my own hurts, panicking, and overthinking, I fear that I've lost the ability to truly look into and speak from my heart. Big, meaningful, long-term changes to my ADHD behaviors is the big-picture answer... but that doesn't help in the split-second decisions of a heated argument.
I could write tons more about the things I have done, said, and tried, but suffice it to say that we're way past a simple "I'm sorry", "I promise", or buying a surprise pair of earrings. If I try to move in for a hug, that's only I'm pretending she wants one as much as me. We've truly come to a place where our marriage is hanging by a thread.
Taking any and all thoughts, no matter how small.
Split second Interrupt the pattern of the fight
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
When my husband and I fight, we use the same pattern. Each of us does the same things we did, in the last fight. We do the same interaction, too. The issue (content, reason for disagreement) changes from fight to fight, but what I do, and what my husband does, doesn't change.
Both of us hate fighting. We're basically peaceable people. Fighting really upsets us both. Overall we haven't fought much, although from time to time we disagree about something. Our fights have crushed both our hearts. They're so painful when they've happened that we just had to do something about them, we had to. I'm speaking for my husband's attitude about these things, as well as my own, because he and I have talked at great length about our fighting, and told each other what it does to each other.
We didn't start improving our fighting, or managing to disagree but not to fight, until we both, not just me, agreed to fight differently. And disagree differently.
I think there's a lot of help for you out there, if you want it, on how to change fight dynamics. But the key is, that at least ONE of the two has to change what they're doing, in a fight, if the dynamic is ever going to change and not be so terrible. And it takes TWO to actually do the fight pattern different, for the TWO to replace the old fight pattern with a better one. Here are some things my husband and I both are doing, once we're headed for an argument
1) We do not fight at the end of the evening. This started with me refusing to have a disagreement, let alone a hot argument, as we were headed for bed. After awhile my husband decided to do this, too. As a poster on this board, C, has written in the past, you can't have a fight if only one person is fighting. But we're both not starting even not-upset disagreements with each other at the end of the evening. There are really bad times during the day for fighting. Are you two wrecking other things by having fights at bedtime, or as one of you is going out the door on a trip or to work? Etc. or if you're locked into fighting at a particular time of the day, change that!
2) We agree that our ability to listen to each other is terrible during a fight. This means that usually the next day, we have to go over again what it was all about. When we're cooler the next day, we do a whole lot better job of listening to each other. And we're in much better shape, having listened to each other, to discuss a solution to whatever it was, a difference of opinion or whatever it was.
3) Each of us has triggers, that are liable to trigger each of us to be especially irritated, regardless of what the disagreement or conflict content is. We are doing better and better at avoiding triggering each other....and adding extra irritation into the disagreement, automatically. To give you an example of triggers, if my husband is under stress and focused on doing something else, I am very liable to set that ADHD lability in him off immediately, if I waltz in on what he is doing and say something like "I just learned that you did X, and I am very pissed about it because you said you wouldn't" Talk about throwing gasoline on an open fire. Generally, I need not only to live with his hyperfocus, but respect that he's in hyperfocus. So if I'm going to have it out with him about something it will remain something closer to a discussion, instead of setting him off to blast me with anger, and me to go into defend or counterargument, if I time it. Are you taking into account any of your wife's triggers, in which always, regardless of what you're doing, she expresses irritation at that being done to her? Or do you just waltz into an argument when you want to? What triggers could she have? That's up to her and your responsibility to know that since you are her husband, but it doesn't hurt to have a quiet conversation in a non argument time and ASK her, and believe her. What are mine, where if my husband waltzes in and drops a complaint on me, or announces that he doesn't like something that I did, I'm at a specially sensitive flashpoint of my own? When I'm in the middle of doing something else. When he has interrupted me, that morning aain and again and again and again, as I've tried to do work of my own that has a deadline. And so on. If you can time your disagreement and not dump it on your partner at one of her hotspot times, you'll take some heat out of the disagreement.
There's so much more to this subject, that I'll stop about me and my husband and your topic. I hope others answer your questions. There IS professional coaching in how to have all kinds of marital communication interactions. I hope additionally to checking in with us, you check in with professionals on your question. There are all kinds of parts of fighting that you really need to deal with a professional about. You can work on the pattern of your fighting right now. You, yourself, by changing the way you do things, can change the pattern of your fighting.... think about what YOU can do differently, and its probability of contributing YOUR better to the situation....don't make this dependent on HER being the one to change or even to agree to what you've decided to do differently.
But there's stuff beyond the immediate fight dynamic that you ought to deal with professionally. I've been around people....even this week, at work....who HAVE to win, who cannot not win, no matter how. I've been around people who fight unfair. They lie during a fight. They don't tell the truth during a fight. They use their words to paint a good picture of them, and and ugly picture of the other person during a fight. They manipulate during a fight. Changing a fight dynamic doesn't address these deeper issues. It just works on a more peaceable way of getting through the fight dynamic.
You asked about empathy, remorse and real apologies, from a non ADHD point of view? Here's mine
Empathy can be expressed in various ways. Non ADHD people often use words of empathy, to signal that they are at the moment thinking not of themselves but of the wellbeing of the other person they're with. My ADHD husband tends to use actions of empathy. Those actions may not occur during a conversation, but after it. Basically I think it's true for anyone, including you with ADHD and me who am non ADHD, that a person can't empathize with another person unless they pay good attention to them....on the terms of the other person NOT on the viewer's terms. That means setting what YOU are thinking aside and listening, looking, beleiving what the other person said about him or herself. If people don't pay attention, really good attention, to the other person, they can't empathize with them. If your wife is asking for empathy from you during an argument, she may be asking you to listen to her, or not reject what she says about herself. Ask her.
Remorse. I generally define that the way the old Christian teachings do. Remorse contains four elements.
1) Compunction, meaning that you, or I, SEE what I did, you SEE the impact on someone else of your action, you see the blast pattern of your action on the other person, I SEE with my moral life the harm I did someone
2) Contrition, meaning that having really realized the harm I did someone or to something step 1, I feel morally bad about what I did. Moral means I believe, not just give lipservice to, that that action is not good to do to anyone. I don't in 2) get off into the dead end of dealing only with my feelings and beating myself up. That's a dead end. And it's an avoidance of relationship with the person that I harmed. Contrition is part of a relationship with something or someone outside of myself. It's not all about me judging or whipping myself emotionally. But I have to really accept that I did something morally wrong. It doesn't have to be a gigantic, world blowing foul up for me to be remorseful. Even the slightest thing, some small selfishness on my part that hurt my husband and I recognize it, needs contrition.
3) Confession. You tell the person you harmed that you know what you did to them, and that you are sorry that you did it. This is the apology. But any so called apology is completely shallow if the person doesn't really see what he or she did and its effect and really get to the point of believing that morally it was was wrong . Recipients often can tell fake apologies from real ones. If they've not gotten apologies from the other person in the past, or have gotten some fake ones, there will be a period in which they're not sure that new apologies are real confessions, or just something like a fake bandaid that tries to mollify them. They will observe over time, and over time will discover that the apologies are sincere
4) Change of behavior. This is the fastest way to prove to a partner that you really see what you did and what it did to your partner, really see that it was wrong, and have apologized sincerely.
It's my very strong opinion that if we're talking about relationships, remorse without 4) is ineffective. I'm rather passionate about that. I work with a lot of people. We have to work together. We have to right the work relation if one of us does something harmful. Without 4) it's hot air.
I very strongly believe that my husband with ADHD can do all these steps. He's doing 1) 2) and 4). Here's how his doing it varies from mine
1) Compunction. I verbalize my compunction. He has compunction all right...he's a very sensitive, well meaning person. But he rarely verbalizes his compunction. He's had a lifetime of being told he is a screwup, before I came into his life. He's also had to navigate in a world in which he does his work, in which men who appear to be showing that they are emotional, or displaying to others a weakness, get hammered by other men. I also do my work in the same general arena, so I know this goes on. So he doesn't say the words that go to the point "I see that I did this to you, and what it did to you."
He has some trouble, sometimes, seeing the effect of his actions and words, not only on me but on others. I'd refer you to professional literature about this one. That he does have some trouble seeing the effect of his actions and words on me, means I need to do two things that I wouldn't need to do, or do so much, with a husband who didn't have ADHD. a) I need to let some of it go...I don't need to take him to task for every inattention to me, or whatever. b) If he has done something that leads me to grieve, or to have trouble getting over, it's my job...because he has ADHD....to tell him what it is he did to me. It took him years to believe me. I don't do this too often. But sometimes he needs feedback from me about what he did to me that harms me, in more than a passing way.
2) Contrition. From what I can tell, my husband does this step. He's a moral man. He has a loving heart. He wants to do well. He doesn't verbalize this step, but sometimes I see from his face, demeanor, or something else, something indirect that he said, that he does this step. It's only an impression but we both seem to get from 1) to 2) at about the same speed.
3) Confession. In earlier years of my life, I was very defensive. The world to me was hard. I was hard on myself. Because what looked like a screw up led to me kneejerking into simultaneous defensiveness with other people and internally judging and castigating myself, it was very, very hard for me to utter apologies. I'd try to do make up stuff without dealing with my errors in truth and out in the open. I'd try to coddle people into feeling differently about me. When I started doing real, out loud apologies, at first it felt like only someone putting a gun to my head would get me through it. By now I have the habit of it, and have known through experience that it is the fastest route to a quiet heart and a reset of relation. I apologize, as fast as I see 1)2) directly to the person, not on the telephone, not through damn little twitters or texts that are at a physical remove from the person I've harmed. I realize that my apology doesn't control them. They can continue being mad at me; that's their business. But if I intend the relation to be better, I need to get going with telling the truth and apologizing pronto.
What do I expect my ADHD husband to do? Well it's his job to do his end of the relationship. Mine doesnt' verbally apologize. I can appreciate that the "man-code" and having been criticized and misunderstood for decades due to his ADHD would certainly condition him, or tempt him, never to apologize, but basically his apologies are his responsibility. My apologies are mine. To his great credit he does NOT do those little coddling things of trying to wheedle me into acting smiley or as if nothing happened, if he harmed me. He's not a manipulator. Thank heaven.
4) Change of action. My husband apparently, in this part of his life, can't say th words "I see I did wrong. I apologize". What he can do and does do, once he has done 1) 2) is change his action that has harmed me. He cogitates it all on his own terms, and for the length of time he needs to, and then changes something....permanently. That's great for someone with ADHD executive function or short term memory issues. As for what I expect of me on 4), as I've said, compunction, contrition (= remorse), and confession (apology) are just hot air, if I don't stop doing what I did to harm him.
Thank you
Submitted by DependentOrigination on
This was a mature and thoughtful response.
My husband, when we were first married, would do something ADD, then I would cry, and then, the next day, he would "apologize". It wouldn't really be an apology, but it would be a nice text, a nice gift, a thoughtful outing, etc.
After awhile, that crying, turned to frustration and anger, because we would run into the same issues, over and over again. I didn't know he had ADD. Then, the nice things the next day, seemed more like bribery. But what really broke my heart, was when I asked him about "the next day" repair attempts after a counseling session once, he said, it wasn't because he felt remorse or that he had done something wrong, but because he wanted me to feel better.
That really bothered me, because I really felt wronged. Wronged by his neglect and abandonment and unreliability and I thought, if he could understand, be empathetic, then he might change his behaviour.
Now I know he has ADD and the world is less black and white and there are infinite shades of grey to all of our interactions. My job, now, is to learn to ask for what I need without hurting myself or hurting other people. My job is to look after myself and my happiness. My job is to not enable or be codependent. My job is to let his problems be his problems, but help, in a reasonable way, that a spouse would. The other day, he a poor scheduling decision in the morning that wasted about 3 hours of our day. And then, he was called into work. And he called me in a panic because he left his helmet at home. And while I was annoyed initially, I drove the 30 minutes to drop off his helmet, because I know I leave things at home sometimes and he has always volunteered to help me. I have learned so much in the last three years, about relationships, and about myself.
Anyhow, I wanted to thank you for your post. I too, have wanted empathy, remorse, and a real apology. My husband also cannot apologize. Or show remorse. And I agree, that is has come from years of people being angry at him and making fun of him and he has had to go his own way. It is a defence mechanism of sorts. I haven't decided yet, what that means to me. The other day, he really crossed the line in his behaviour with me, and I demanded an apology, and I received one. And it was sincere, and I accepted it. Maybe he will learn that apologizing isn't as painful as it once seemed.
You're welcome, Dependentorigination
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
It's been somewhat amazing to me to see that I need to learn expectations and ways of doing things, appropriate to sharing life with my ADHD husband....the Cognitive Behavior Therapy stuff....but also that so many identity and ethical matters need to be re thought through. I'll try not to get too long in this post, but did want to respond to you, more as if we were in conversation:
My husband, when we were first married, would do something ADD, then I would cry, and then, the next day, he would "apologize". It wouldn't really be an apology, but it would be a nice text, a nice gift, a thoughtful outing, etc. ... But what really broke my heart, was when I asked him about "the next day" repair attempts after a counseling session once, he said, it wasn't because he felt remorse or that he had done something wrong, but because he wanted me to feel better.
So that was the habit of making up after doing something that upset someone that he brought into the marriage. It's possible he was taught that in earlier life. I'm glad he wanted you to feel better, I trust because he cared about you as well as he wanted to feel better himself.
I would do exactly what he did to make up when I was younger. I think a lot of people do this "make up nice thing" instead of an apology. It's not an ADHD only behavior...... I started to understand that I was trying to pay off someone's upset with the gift things I did, instead of dealing with myself and doing the harder thing of taking responsibility for what I did wrong, when I was in my mid twenties.
Like I've said, my husband sometimes does things, in place of saying things. He doesn't have to do things the way I do. I also think it's possible that apologies when he's tried to do them, have led to him feeling bad, or to some blow back. In a face to face in which you use words to apologize, you go into a situation that you cannot control, because the other person might not be done being angry, and you have to face the music of whatever that person wants to do when you speak your apology. There's no where to hide. Because apologies aren't magic cookies to make unhappiness go away or to get people off your back, they take some stamina to do.
Perhaps especially if you have ADHD, are an adult, and have been criticizing and persecuting yourself, internally, about failures, forgetting things, or things not getting done. I have some sympathy for people growing up with ADHD not being able to track on why people get mad at them, sometimes, because of missing things going on, or remembering that they have. I grew up in a situation in which there was often sudden outbreaks of anger, with no way to know whether or not I had done anything that provoked the anger. That's at least roughly like what I think ADD and ADHD people must go through...due to inattention or inner absorption, they don't predict effect of what they do sometimes, or remember that they did something, so these upsets that their loved ones have with them because yes they did do that, but they didn't notice or remember it, must be something like what went on in a household with a very angry borderline mother growing up. I really believe that people can't do a real apology until they are able to first, remember what they did, second, connect what they did to other people, and third, really understand that they have done harm. ADHD neurology in a well meaning person can get in the way of getting through the first of those steps.
At his age, I don't plan to require my husband to apologize in words. But I do think we need to deal with each other and communicate about what one of us is doing that is very harmful or upsetting to the other one, and change things so that that persistent harm isn't happening any more.
After awhile, that crying, turned to frustration and anger, because we would run into the same issues, over and over again. I didn't know he had ADD.
I didn't, either, although some light was dawning that that was a possiblity, beginning three weeks before the wedding. I was terribly stressed out, very uncertain about what I was doing to myself if I married into ADHD. I knew nothing about ADHD at all, but those 3 weeks before the wedding was stoke reading, not only hunting like crazy for what I needed to help me begin to sort whether some brand new things he was doing (because he had hidden his ADHD as well as he could from the outside world, including me) might be and what ADHD in fact was and wasn't. My husband was used to coping with himself in his work and when he was off on his own, but hadn't been through the learning curve of establishing and building an adult intimate relation. It was very hard for awhile, DO. Yes I so agree, that you as a non-ADHD person will have at least a good chance of caring for yoruself and trying new things with your husband, the more you learn about ADHD in general, and about his ADHD plusses and minuses, in particular.
Now I know he has ADD and the world is less black and white and there are infinite shades of grey to all of our interactions. My job, now, is to learn to ask for what I need without hurting myself or hurting other people. My job is to look after myself and my happiness. My job is to not enable or be codependent. My job is to let his problems be his problems, but help, in a reasonable way, that a spouse would.
These are my daily bottom lines, as well. I really don't mind doing things differently from the ways that have worked with other people in the past. It took a while for me to get out of the groove I had gotten into, of jumping to help every time I heard a cry of frustration, or announcement that something had fallen apart, or worse, presuming that if he did something clunky to me through inattention that my explaining things to him was what he needed, to stop doing that to me (LOL on me). I'm working on doing it as you've said. I don't know if you've seen this happen in your house, but as I learned my own wellbeing ways, my stress level went down, and as my stress level went down, his did too. ....I just now did a little phone conversation with my husband. He checks in with me a lot. At first it drove me batty. We use the little conversations and texts for various things, but I think a tremendous matter for him, is to check to see if everything's OK. Back to people with ADHD haviing lived with so many situations blowing up and them not quite observing or sussing why things blew up....so I tell him that at the moment, I'm OK ....he does want to hear that....and that the world at my end isn't erupting. Dependentorigination, I found it somewhat a relief that the key to things being better began in my loving attention to my own wellbeing. : ) Best to you and to your husband. A journey of small steps, over hills and dale.
I am impressed.
Submitted by DependentOrigination on
I really respect and admire your courage and your willingness to look at things from all sides. Interestingly, I have always espoused peace, mutual respect and used to AVOID conflict at any opportunity, mostly because I grew up in a household rife with conflict. Now I can't avoid conflict because I am constantly put in uncomfortable situations that challenge my ability to remain calm and that I have no experience dealing with.
I used to switch jobs and switch relationships when things became hard. Interestingly, about 8 years ago, I committed to living in the same place for my daughter. I committed to a job that I could keep over the long term. And I got married. It funny that when I settled down, I married a man that I might actually need to separate from at some point. I have learned a lot though. I used to get so angry I would spiral out of control and not be able to calm down. Finding this forum and being able to vent has been extremely helpful. As has lovingly detaching from him when he has a crises that is not my responsibility to solve. Now, if I am shocked by something he does, I allow myself to feel angry, in my own space without hurting anyone by lashing out, take the time I need to process, and then come back. Even if I get angry, and say a few things, I can rein myself in. Because I have learned, to not react as the plan is constantly in transition, because you never know whether he is going to come through with a home run or major catastrophe (or both in the time it takes me to wake up in the morning, shower, and brush my teeth). I think these are good lessons for me to learn. I have sheltered myself from the world quite a bit in my avoidance of difficult emotions.
As for apologies, it sounds as if I need to let go of that expectation as well. To me, if I hear some remorse, or an apology, I instantly forgive and forget. Because I see my own mistakes and weaknesses and want people to forgive me. But I guess I will just have to bypass that step, as his brain does not work the same way as mine, and yet he accepts me with all my weakness and mistakes.
Thank you for your thoughtful words and helpful advice.
I'm Impressed.......D.O.
Submitted by kellyj on
"As for apologies, it sounds as if I need to let go of that expectation as well. To me, if I hear some remorse, or an apology, I instantly forgive and forget. Because I see my own mistakes and weaknesses and want people to forgive me. But I guess I will just have to bypass that step, as his brain does not work the same way as mine, and yet he accepts me with all my weakness and mistakes."
As you said prior to this....when you were faced with the situations...where clearly something was happening where you knew you were not at fault yourself...but somehow, there is a crisis or catastrophe going on that you needed to separate yourself from and just not get involved in...which is not something that you are use to or have any real espereince with this? And as I heard you.... normally in the past, you'd just move on when things would start to get sour or not suit you well...and this seemed to be your method of keeping conflict out of your life to maintaining your self, along with not getting upset and angry and spiraling out of control by something that just shocked you in your H's behavior. No where to really run or get away from it? Now what?
Yes....as I hear you.....now what?
I think....what NON was saying is correct on many levels...as she said it, " I grew up in a situation in which there was often sudden outbreaks of anger, with no way to know whether or not I had done anything that provoked the anger. That's at least roughly like what I think ADD and ADHD people must go through...due to inattention or inner absorption, they don't predict effect of what they do sometimes, or remember that they did something, so these upsets that their loved ones have with them because yes they did do that, but they didn't notice or remember it, must be something like what went on in a household with a very angry borderline mother growing up. I really believe that people can't do a real apology until they are able to first, remember what they did, second, connect what they did to other people, and third, really understand that they have done harm. ADHD neurology in a well meaning person can get in the way of getting through the first of those steps."
Ironically....there was myself, my sisters and my mother....who ( now )...I suspect all of US....having ADHD to some degree...who were all walking on egg shells....afraid of confrontation....afraid of saying a single word...and with a tendency....to put a "bow on everything"...and call it "Good".
Mainly.....this was my mothers tendency...but she was so deep in her own denial....she was more worried about everyone else...than she was about herself and what she was doing.....but especially because of our father....who could be a raging Narcissist at times...and just walk in and blow the room to pieces at the drop of a hat without warning? His talent....(if you could call it this? ) was to walk into a situation where something would upset him or that he just didn't like or wanted to have happen....and pull out the flame thrower....and "raise" the room to the ground and everyone else just had to sit and get "flamed"..( or you tried run and duck for cover ) which in our case....."freeze"....instead of "flight"...was the only option you had? Honestly. There was only one option here and this was it? One false move during these moments...only meant having the "flame thrower" aimed directly at you....instead of it being just spewed everywhere...in a more general direction along with the rest of the room...and everyone else in it? Our entire family experienced these moments at the same time together...and no matter what the reason for my father pulling the "flame thrower" out....and despite any justifications he might have ( ADHD or not? )....a) no one knew what those were? b) no one knew exactly why he was so upset c) that right there (a and b)..... was the least of anyones concerns and the last thing you were wondering or thinking about......and d) all you could think about....was not getting burned and not doing anything in those moments ( one false move )...to get burned anymore than you already were?
IF....you were able to walk away from one of these moments with my father only slightly "singed" lol....you were lucky just to be alive...let alone, want to say anything...of get to the bottom of his anger and what he was angry about? Are you kidding me?
The last thing you're gonna do is: a) face the flame thrower again... or..... b) do anything c) say anything ...to bring this up ....or.... cause this to happen as long as he was in this "state of mind"...which was unreasonable at best?
And even when he calmed down and it was safe to out from hiding again....the LAST thing you're gonna do...is want to bring this moment up again...and talk to him about it? It's what he wanted anyway. "Compliance"....not to talk about anything? He didn't want to "talk"...he wanted intermediate results.....immediately!!!! And he got it....so he got every thing he wanted already....he never wanted to talk or discuss it with anyone. In my fathers case....he conditioned all of us...to comply ....in the moment....to anything he wanted....or didn't want....and then he went back to being his usual "ticking time bomb" again where you were just waiting for the shoe to drop...so you had to run and duck for cover?
The only thing this taught anyone....was to "instantly comply"...or face the "flame thrower" (or the music ie" the sound ... that the "flame thrower made" ? ) Take your pick? And sometimes for good measure....the flame thrower was brought out at random....even if nothing was apparently going wrong and no one had any idea then what was up....because it might have been him just having a bad day and you didn't do anything? But along with that.....he never told you or said anything then either....and you were just expected "not to ask or say anything" so he had free reign to "kick the dog"...any time he felt like it...and no one was expected to question him on anything...including he dog himself? ( our real dog lol )
What Now was mentioning about being "criticized" constantly....would also have to include these moments as well in our case. Being criticized was the norm. That was what you got daily...from the first second you wake up and walk in the room with my father. Those you have too...but they're just happening rapid fire all day long here and there and you start to just tune those out since there are so many of them and they are all about something different anyway. The list of criticisms...is LONG and there are too many to keep track of them all...let alone, do anything about them to stop these from happening? Pretty soon...you just tune them out because theres just no stopping them...with a person like this and they come at you constantly...so you just get "numbed" by them after a while? At least those were connected to something you were doing or did only moments before.....but not in the big picture....because "education"....or "teaching you anything"...was not my fathers intention? My fathers intention in all of this was clear and completely easy to understand with no need to question this any further. "Compliance"....or "flame thrower"...that's all he wanted and that much was absolutely clear? Talking, teaching, reasoning or anything other than this ONE clear lesson...was exactly his intention. and no one needed to go any further than this...because this was all that mattered to him?
But in all of this....I can speak on his behalf now...and say that he must have been brought to the point of exasperation himself many times but expecially because of my mothers failure in many ways to be aware of herself and what she was doing....to actually be aware of her part and mine together.....mother to son.....and my father seeing this but feeling only completely frustrated and angry with my mother...for not being more "on top of it"...or "with it"....which seemed so painfully obvious to him more often than not? He expected...that my mother...would take care of these things so they wouldn't happen in the first place (what ever they were?) ...so in his thinking....both my mother and our family as a whole....needed some educating on this subject...and like....."right this very minute"...because of my mothers failure and denial of so much that she just wasn't getting or she was missing? But this was how he handled it...and would spiral out of control in a heart beat without warning? That was how he dealt with this and this was all anyone knew at the time?
What you have to consider in what I just said....despite my father Narcissism? He was a non-ADHD spouse here? Just like all of you are now? If you can have empathy for yourselves in all of this....then you had to have empathy for my father here too? He was dealing with a family of people with ADHD....and he certainly was not use to that by any means imaginable?
And even within this....my sisters came through pretty much "unscathed" for the most part...in anything that I experienced especially later on after they were out of the house? They missed that part completely...but they had another issue that I never experienced...that had to do solely in the mother / daughter department? This mother / daughter relationship thing ....and all that goes with it ie: body image and self esteem as a woman....went completely off the radar for me and I had no idea of any of this...since that was kind of N/A....as far as I was concerned?
What was not N/A as far as I was concerned...was the part that had to do with my father...more than my mother and for the most part...my mom and I got along pretty well and didn't have a lot of conflicts other than....to get past her crazy phobic fears in seemingly "everything"...and work around those with her. There were times when this would create a conflict...but usually my father was there to put the "kobosh" on those when he could see ( and he knew himself ) that her catastrophic thinking she took everywhere she went ...in everything!!!! lol ..was more than just a nuisance at times. Not just to me...but to him as well? Her fear was the only real thing I was confronted with in my mother....so that was easy to reconcile as "phobic" and "unreasonable"...so I had no reason to take this on as mine? Or so....I thought?
If you stand back and just look at this honest recreation of my thinking "at the time growing up"...and put yourself into this position knowing what you know and from your own experiences now with your spouse who has ADHD....it's the denial of the ADHD parts of the story that is missing here....and so all you've got to work with...is exactly what I said? Saying.....I can tell you without second guessing this for a second...if this was you...in the same situation.....you'd do the same thing....when there is only one option left for you to take?
Actually one of "two options" only....."run and duck for cover"... and / or "freeze and get burned"....or keep your mouth shut...and tippy toe around like a mouse...and keep your head down? This is exactly what you would do...just like me, my sister and mother?
And what do you learn from this experience that has any use of value to you what so ever? Nothing? That's what you learn about yourself, ADHD or any part you had to play in this at all. Absolutely nothing is what comes from this...so you wonder where denial comes from? This is it?
D.O. the core feature of having ADHD....comes on a "functioning level". "Executive Function"...is exactly this meaning. In everyday "functioning"...you will do things that you are unaware of "in the moment" that is very very difficult...to ever eliminate entirely but with working on it...after you;re aware of it..I repeated....."AFTER you are aware of it and you realized this is the cause for this"....you can do a lot of things to change it..and improve across the board?
You can also easily apologize for it...once you realize this...because it's not that hard to figure out base on your own ability to empathize and understand what it's like if you were on the other side? No one needs to explain this part to you....ONCE you are aware...and once you realize?
But if you haven;'t arrived at this place yet in your own awareness of it...and you don't even realize ANY of your own contribution as to why someone is even mad at you or criticize you in the first place? You're right back at square one....right where I was growing up...and walking away from my own situation....with what very little I learned ( if anything?) that would be useful to me to help me see it or explain why that happened? Until you understand or see even that much? Like I said.....what I got...was nothing from nothing...and this pretty much tells you nothing? So working from nothing to go on like this....will pretty much lead you to "not knowing what you're doing ...actually"....to give anyone reason to be angry and upset with you?
It has "nothing" to do with empathy..;..and then "guilt and remorse"...or even the inability to apologize and feel sorry? It has everything to do with denial.....and just simply "not knowing" and being ignorant? Ignorant...is has nothing to with IQ either or being "stupid" which also has nothing to do with this...and everything to do with simply being ignorant on our part?
And the same applies to my father as well? He was just ignorant....along with being a flaming Narcissist...which in our case unfortunately...is NOT a good combination....to learn anything from aside from shame and a bad case of "compliance" as the only answer in everything?
And in keeping with what was mentioned earlier about doing nice things after the fact as a show of concern for the other person...or possibly as means to even placate or appease anyone on the other side without a true apology? Like NOW was saying....you have to be able to connect what you did.....and how that is effecting the other person ...to know what to apologize in the first place? I use to say...."I'm sorry"..so often...it lost it's ability to mean anything after a while? I was "sorry"....I felt "sorry"...and I felt a whole lof of shame and guilt and feeling "sorry for myself along with it?" "Sympathy for the devil" in this case....but without any means to explain it of even know why?
A perfect means to put this into context in what I just said? The song....."Sympathy for the Devil"....by the Rolling Stones? I do not actually believe in a Devil....but what is the Devil in us...starts with anger and rage and being vindictive and needing to be validated instead of showing compassion and empathy instead? As I'm saying this in a metaphoric way the same as I hear the words of this song...in the same way Mick Jagger had intended it....more of an allegory or catharsis than anything else?
Please allow me to introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
I've been around for a long, long year
Stole many a man's soul and faith
And I was 'round when Jesus Christ
Had his moment of doubt and pain
Made damn sure that Pilate
Washed his hands and sealed his fate
[Chorus]
Pleased to meet you, hope you guess my name
But what's puzzling you is the nature of my game
Yep....so absolutely true? What's puzzled me was...the nature of the game because I had no idea...until I found out...all the reasons why first? Denial...is why there is no true apologies or no signs of remorse? Not some character defect...or inability like my own father? That could be possible as well as having ADHD....but not the ADHD reason..and this is why it's so hard to tell the difference sometimes?
J
Case In Point Just One....."WTF" Moment?
Submitted by kellyj on
As I was writing my last response....I recalled the "worst case scenario"...just to give you an idea of what I was saying as just one example?
I won't go into the whole lead up to the story....but I had been gone all day with some friends and their parents...when I was asked to join them to go do some errands that their father had while I was over at their house playing with their two sons. It was a Sunday..which meant my father was home and he and my mother were spending it together..working in the yard since it was a nice sunny day and it was the only day my father had to do this kind of thing. ( he worked 6 days a week as his usually schedule as long as I new him? 5 1/2....was the bare minimum so Saturdays were a work day...even if only 1/2 day? ).
I on the other hand...had been released from "duty" in that I had done my chores and was free to go find something to do on my own? I was about 6 or 7 years old at the time...and my favorite place to go at the time....was over to my two friends house and play? When asked if I wanted to go along with their family...instead of going home to what I knew was there.....that was an easy decision to make...without thinking into this any further? And excuse ...not to go home....was the obvious "pick" or preference....ALWAYS!! lol The last thing I wanted to do...was hang around while my father was at home since....he'd put you to work...or just complain and criticize so.....you do the math here?
What I had not even began to consider until it was already too late ( par for the course )...was asking how long they'd be gone ...and going to ask my parents permersion ( and in avoidance of my mothers long list of all the reasons "why" I shouldn't go...or "risk" her saying NO...which was about 70% NO probability...and only 30% YES...without a whole lot of hoops and contingencies thrown into it....in the moment at the time came " YES.....PLEASE!!!!! ( take my wife Please!!!! lol ) as my means to decide what I wanted because this was exactly what I wanted with no need to think about this any further?
And one of the reasons I liked hanging out with this family in the first place....was their kind of Laisez Faire attitude ...about schedules and time ( no real structure or rigid rules along these lines....and their very sporadic kind of lifestyle....that fit me perfectly as far as a lot of rules and regulations...which suited me just fine!! lol It was always an adventure with them...and they seemed to be focused on the journey..and just enjoying the scenery and not being in a big RUSH to do anything?
And in this one day....is was exactly that? We stopped in a number of different restaurants including their fathers own...and met all kinds of people..and I was taken in the back behind the scenes to see how restaurants worked in the kitchen and bar and this was all very exciting and complete adventure and something I would have no way if ever experiencing? It was so exciting and new..and I was having such a good time...that I completely lost track of time which was the norm for me but no matter what.....this was so much better...than anything I could experience at home and for a brief afternoon of being free from the Hell hole awaiting me....this was a very needed break from that. I needed it in other words...and I was enjoying every minute of it!!
Somewhere in the middle of the afternoon...the father treated us all to lunch at one of his friends restaurants ( probably comped to him anyway...but who cares? He was extremely generous and when you were with them....you were family anyway? ) It was about this time while we were finishing lunch. ( at 3:00 pm on a Sunday? ) that I suddenly thought about the time...since normally 4:00pm - 5:00pm?...was about when I was expected home on a usual day? I erred on the outside of this....but this time I was wrong? It was after 5:00pm ( by about 20 minutes or so? ) when I walked into my back yard hoping to avoid my parents...but there they were still working in the yard...but in that moment...I felt relieved? Whew!!! They're still doing yard work...so I'm not late for anything?
My father looked up to see me coming towards them...and I was in this complete state of bliss and being so excited about this day I had which to date as far as I remember....was one of the best days I have ever had in my life...up to that point in time. I figured I had made it back home before they were done working...and this was the only concern I had at the time which only 20 or 30 minutes....shouldn't be that big a deal right?
The second my Dad lifted his head from digging or doing what ever he was doing...with my mothers head coming up at the same time ...he wheeled around and charged me like a Bull. Literally making a Bee line straight for me and then started screaming at me and beating on me..and screaming at me to get in the house. As I went towards the nearest door in back of our house....my father walked directly behind me...literally "kicking my Butt" with each step he took while screaming at me ...at the same time all the way to the door and then gave me one big KICK so hard...it almost lifted me off the ground and propelled me inside the house. He then slammed the door behind me...and then I could here him screaming at my mother at the same time which at that point...I just went to my room and closed the door and hoped...not to see him anymore?
What I didn't know at the time....but do now...was this thing my mother does when she catastrphizes. She becomes obsessed with dying and people getting injured or killed...or when I didn't come home "early"...hadn't called to tell them where I was..and since my father was there working with her and having to go through her ranting and worrying which would get to a frenzy state at times....he was so worked up and mad at her...and then mad at me for causing this.....that this is how he dealt with it...and to show my mother "how it's done" by giving her a real time tutorial in how to gain "compliance"..with me. It was in response to my mothers obsessive, annoying and truly frustrating anxiety and always going to the worst case scenario in everything....."death"...that she was probably acting like I was had already been killed...and was behaving in a completely irrational manner. Par for the course with my mother. This drove my father...over the edge most of the time....and of course....a lesson needs to taught here....and he was the decider in all cases and how this lessen needed to be taught while taking out his own frustrations at the same time and me just being the "pawn" or the reason ...to scape goat his anger towards my mother over her seemingly...bizarre and uncontrollable behavior...that was causing a disruption in his universe...and me along with it?
The only lesson I learned from this? One of the best days I had ever had....turned into one of the worst days I had ever had.....but it was totally worth it!!! I already new my Dad was an asshole...nothing new there? And I already new of my mothers dysfunction...which is why I didn't call and ask in fear that she would say NO? What I right? Of course I was....but I got that great day...and that was worth every penne of it as far as I was concerned?
I remember sitting in my room...in fear of more of the same...while at the same time...reflecting on what a wonderful time I had...and how I was going to get back to that place again?
That's what I learned from this at the time...and the effect of this kind of lesson had on me. I can remember it that well...because of the extremes on both ends....which was almost the worst experience or beating I got since it was so brutal and so full of rage with no words or explanations taken out on me.,.....with me going...."screw you.....you can't hurt me you big pussy. Wait until next week....when I do it again. Anything is better than this.....you can beat me till the cows come home.....you suck, this place suck, this family sucks...and I know where it doesn't. That's where I'll be....and you can beat me all you like and it won't stop me for a minute. In fact...it's the reason WHY...coming home...or staying as far away ( YOU PEOPLE and THIS!!! ) and away from home for as long as I can when ever I can...is so attractive to me in the first place. I never see this at my freinds house ever..and they don;t seem to be so concerned about rigid rules and time schedules either with no consequences to the boys and no consequence seemingly ...to the parents either? Everyone just gets along and seems to enjoy themselves even with the moments of irritation I would see...and with "Gladdy"....the "Freak"...( their mother ) ...who mainly would just squint at you as the most severe consequence and give you the "LOOK" that says....."I know what you boys are up too." or either that...and would just grab you and put a broom in your hand to order you to "sweep". lol ( even me...not being their son lol )
But here's a funny side note to this? I was at their house one day..and "Gladdy" decides it's time for us boys to do some house work and clean up after ourselves? She literally grabs a broom and tells me to sweep up the back patio where we were playing and then stand and watches me for a second...and then goes...." here....let me show you." And she shows me how to hold the broom off set with both hands to get better control of the broom which I did and it worked perfectly and then she winks and then leaves me there to go dole out her boys end of this moment of "house cleaning."
To this day....I credit Gladdy...for showing me how to sweep with a broom. My mother never did this...because you couldn't because she did all the sweeping herself and I never had to? My father? Well....what do you think? And to this day...I sweep the same way...because it's the way it's done that worked the best...which took Gladdy all of 30 seconds to teach me? At age 8, 9 or 10? Or there abouts? It;s not that I had never used a broom before....it';s just that I had never had anyone show me the right way to use it...that's the difference right there?
Lessons...and teaching? How it's done...makes all the difference in the world.
J
Compliance ie: Nature of the Game?
Submitted by kellyj on
com·pli·ance
kəmˈplīəns/
noun
noun: compliance; noun: compliancy; plural noun: compliancies
1.
the action or fact of complying with a wish or command.
"they must secure each other's cooperation or compliance"
the state or fact of according with or meeting rules or standards.
"all imports of timber are in compliance with regulations"
synonyms:obedience to, observance of, adherence to, conformity to, respect for
"compliance with international law"
antonyms:violation
unworthy or excessive acquiescence.
"the appalling compliance with government views shown by the commission"
synonyms:acquiescence, agreement, assent, consent, acceptance; More
docility, complaisance, pliability, meekness, submission
"he mistook her silence for compliance"
antonyms:defiance
2.
Physics
the property of a material of undergoing elastic deformation or (of a gas) change in volume when subjected to an applied force. It is equal to the reciprocal of stiffness.
Newtons 3rd Law ( cause and effect ) In every action....there is an equal and opposite reaction ie" Is equal to..the reciprocal of stiffness. ie: rigid and unbending which accounts for undergoing elastic deformation...from it's natural original state. Nature abhors a vacuum.
All of this is just "reacting" or a physical "reaction". Reacting is on an animal level speaking in those terms. We are just animals and are made if skin and bone with a nervous system after all? Meat on a hook...in other words. Being mindful, thoughtful or considering....is an intellectual process as in "thinking".,...not just reacting? ( like a Fluke Worm in a Petri dish having an electrical charge placed on it...and observing what it does? lol )
J
Can I say something?
Submitted by DependentOrigination on
I learn something, something new, every time you reply to a post of mine. It might not be a lesson I want to learn, but it is often something that I NEED to learn. You always offer an alternative perspective. Another way of looking at things. Which is what I have been looking for. I remember, about three months in to my marriage, after some other weird exchange between my husband and I, being in tears, and saying "It's fine. I just need to learn how to live with you".
I just need to learn how to live with him. Do I feel compassion for your father? Sure. Sure I do. I have been that person, angry, losing my shit, because I have been poked at, prodded at, pushed, beyond reason, beyond coping, and moved forward to reacting. Do I like that he kicked you? After a simple, understandable way of coping? No, of course I don't. Do I see myself in your father? Sure, I do.
I have this patient, with bipolar disorder, who is constantly getting in her own way. Constantly destroying her health, her life, her ability to have a good life. It gets so we laugh about it. My boss said the other day, "you can't get mad at her, it's like getting mad at a puppy". So, yes, getting mad at my husband, is like getting mad at something that can't help itself... but... BUT, you have also made the point, over and over, that just because you have ADHD, doesn't mean that you aren't a person, a full spectrum of a person. And that, THAT is where the subtlety is, where the nuance is.
So, I will continue to be open, to consider your side of the story, to accept that at times I might be wrong, that at times, I am your father, and that I can do better. And I can forgive. And I can understand. And I can give up the need to be right, and accept that I just need to be loved.
I will find compassion. Thank you for helping me to see another way. The way I have been looking for. I am going to start attending my local support group, which is NOT for spouses of ADD folk, but for ADD folk. Just to learn, and listen, and try to understand.
Happy Saturday. I hope you are well.
Lisa In Response With an Update
Submitted by kellyj on
Thank you for sharing your feedback to what I was saying. These stories tell a lot more...than trying to explain it to someone and this is my hope for including them?
I could easily have just said "Yeah...I was ODD when I was a child...and my father was a raging Narcissist and was a total asshole...that why I'm like the way I am or how I got here which would only be telling the results.....not the story? What you said in seeing these things in yourself...does not prove you are a Narc like my Dad? I doubt...very much, that you go around "beating people" without warning and take out your frustrations in this way everywhere you go? He didn't "beat" everyone else since he couldn't get away with that....but he used "fear" and "intimidation" in other ways...to get people to "comply" with what he wanted. The "beatings" are kind of irrelevant to what's "behind" the beatings...but behind the reasons why...and even within the things your recognize in yourself ( the same as I do )....what goes a step beyond that and the "purpose" or "within the thinking" that says to "do it"...or act on it....is a whole different story in itself? The "thinking" within a Narcs brain that justifies these actions with no remorse or guilt ( or no empathy ) and no reason to feel like this is wrong and is perfectly within my "right" to do it as I choose whenever I'm not getting what I want....is the bigger picture and the story behind how a "Narc" thinks? Most people in my experience...do not "act" this way...and they don't "act out" their thinking and then justify it as perfectly "normal" after the fact.
I just wanted to give you an update on my wife and I...and where I'm going with this? After all this fighting we've done in trying to connect and communicate...and in my attempts to get her to "see" a different point of view sometimes.....it's really paying off now ( later )..after planting all those seeds of "doubt" in her head...but without trying to force her or manipulate her into my way of seeing things? What I've found mostly...is she and I are just approaching the same things from a different angle..and her approach and my approach are different...but with her....she was pretty stubbornly refusing to see things any different from her own and not really wanting to listen to anything I had to say?
The update even as of this weekend ( we had friends over on Saturday ) and how that played out could have been a problem in the past...but I found a way to talk to her about it..and get on the same page at the very least? I don't need to hear anymore of her "blaming" and "accusing" to know what she's thinking. This pretty much tells me that already and I've heard it before? And I do understand her point of view...even if she can't understand mine. That the most important part of this....I get it and I understand it....even if I may not agree with it always but not agreeing ...is not the problem. Not understanding is..and was, where all the conflict leads to fighting about it...just to get to that place of simply understanding it...so you can at least...come to a compromise if needed?
The interesting thing about my past experiences and those even with my own father? As you said...you can understand it from your perspective too and now....I can as well? I understand it...and with that understanding...your own internal conflict about it becomes resolved? My father was long since dead....when that happened with me? I had carried around so much hurt and pain and the suffering this created for me...that understanding...was not going to happen...unless I spent the time and effort to try and understand it first...before anything else?
What I found is...the conflict starts...inside you and then gets transferred onto other people. If you've got memories that are too painful to even think about.....you've not going to think about them very often..or even want to in the first place? Nothing will come of that...I can guarantee...unless you do something first...and making it so you can forgive and forget about the "incident" and how that effected you and was so painful......becomes "not so painful" and not something not to think about...which open you up to see things differently and resolve those things from the past and just let it go. With that of understanding.... it allows you to "think out of the box" and resolve thins differently for yourself first...before you approach anyone else with "their persona problems"...what ever they may be? I use to carry around so much anger about what my father did... because I felt like...."he got away with it" and never had to pay a price for all the things he did?
Once I was able to resolve this all for myself ...even without the opportunity to go back and talk to him..."live and in person"...I realized he didn't get away with anything and died a very unhappy and unfilled "man" just full of bitterness, anger,and pain who was full of resentment and remained permanently "stuck" inside this prison...of never being able to look at himself..and where he "went wrong"? He was so busy being "right"..and imposing his "rightness" on everyone else...he never stopped to consider that maybe he was wrong? Or maybe.... he was his own worst enemy since all that hatred was really just inside him and no one else? Not understanding this at the very least...was why he never was able to resolve those feelings from his past and all his own trauma's and drama's that plagued him to his last dying day.
And even as I think back about this family who kind of "took me in" and included me as one of their own. They were not what I would call...the "ideal" by any means. Even today...I don't pattern myself after them...only in that their lifestyle "left a lot to be desired" !! LOL Even I knew this on some level in comparing my own family to them..and both my parents were not all that fond of me hanging out with them...because as they called it...."the bad influence" that as they saw it....this families way of doing things was "bad" or "not good". Mainly because of their drinking...which was apparently since he was a bar owner. lol He drank and smoked pretty much non stop..and so did his wife ( Gladdy )...or "Freaky Bitch"...as we would call her right to her face when we got older as a kind of "Loving disrespect"...that somehow registered as that even with her at the time. lol There is something to be said...in the fact, that what was allowed in that family....was so much of what "wasn't allowed"...which was simply being honest and open about it...even within the "disrespect" that was so openly spoken. lol If so much goes underground..and is never talked about.....that I found is more a problem...than "disrespect" done in an obvious way..so everyone is on the same page and everyone knows what everyone else is thinking and feeling at all times without that...in itself....becoming or being the problem...by itself? I don't model myself or my lifestyle after this family now....but what I learned and how they treated me...and including me with open arms despite all the same things my own parents found so distasteful...meant, they operated like a "real" family who were connected to each other and took all the good with the bad ...in "stride" and without it creating a total melt down in their lives..and just moved forward and kept on moving?
This difference and what I experienced between the two? I choose a third option...and that's a combination of the two taking what I can get in the good ways...and throwing the bad ones out as I go. What I found with my wife most detrimentally for us and for me alone...is the same inability to take things in "stride" and not let herself get derailed by the slightest problem the same as my father in some similar ways? Saying...she doesn't act on thing quite the same as he did...and using "violence" as her means to intimidate into doing things..is not her standard MO.
But trying to control and manipulate me in other ways ...using other means to get there...is approximately the same thing..which totally doesn't work? She has so much "shit" and unresolved issues from her past that she can't let of or get past within herself...that it's this inability to get past these things whether it's with me or anyone else...that's creating the same "prison" in her mind..and the same kind of being "stuck" in there with all that conflict...is why she can't move "in stride" and keep moving forward when there's a problem?
In contrast going back to this family that was part of my experience growing up? OMG...the younger brother who like my own "brother" in that respect....is and was a vortex for destruction...and is probably in jail ( or has been ) in the direction he was heading? LOL Not so much in terms of being bad or evil...more just a "knack" for creating havoc...and disregarding the law. LOL The stories I can tell you....which are both many..and sometimes hilarious!!!
The "Day of the Chickens"....where their father put us boys in charge of rounding up all the "chickens".... so he could slaughter them one by one as we caught them. Which ended up with "Little John" as we called him....tearing the yard apart and destroying everything in his path...when he got frustrated with chasing the chickens around....and jumped on his Moto Cross bike and playing "chicken polo" with them as a means to catch them and disable them so he could ge them to bring to his father. LOL Which included chasing them with his motorcycle on their patio, the deck area and in and around all the flower beds. LOL Just one of many days like this for example....which defied all good common sense and reason!!! LOL He was...by an standard you can use here.....completely "out of control". LOL
Can I say...that I didn't enjoy this? I was laughing so hard in just this one time for example...that I was completely incapacitated and on ground doubled up with cramps from laughing so hard...it was so funny to me at the time. LOL This was what...my parents were so concerned about...and the "influence" this might have on me as well as not really approving of the rest of the family and what they did for a living and all that goes with it?
But despite their somewhat unorthodox way of moving through life....they were a family after all...and they stuck together come Hell or High Water..and managed to actually...NOT be in conflict with each other...and that's the influence I actually got from this...which was the opposite of my own family which had kind of a "every man woman and child for themselves" way of approaching things and nothing was ever talked about or resolved? All the rules and regulations in the world...can't replace what was missing in my own family...that this family had in spades. That's the influence they had on me....not....what they did or their actions in other areas? ( like Chicken polo LOL )
In the essence of what I took from this....my parents greatest fears for me....happened anyway despite all the punishing and the controlling and the fear of what....might happen in order to prevent it by means of trying to control me and in fear of the "influence" this might have? In fear of the fear of what might happen....cause them to put a wedge between me and my family....instead of being more understanding and to talk about things...instead of "freaking out" over the tiniest of "infractions"...and making a mountain out of a mole hill..at the drop of a hat?
The results of this way of doing things...did exactly what I said? And the results of me...being influenced in the way they feared most.....never happened? In fact...just the opposite happened and I learned what a family is all about from the very people that my own parents were so fearful of? What I learned if anything from this....is not to throw the baby out with the bath water and make my own choices despite...what anyone else is afraid of? Doing that....only makes you "reasonable" more than anything else?
And in pushing for this as much as possible with my wife? She has actually become...more reasonable...and from that....is where we can really talk about things...without this "catastrophic" kind of thinking...that has a nasty habit of turning "Mole hills into Mountains"...and never resolving anything? And I see the same thing so clearly with my wife as I did with my own family too....the fear of what might happen....causes more problems....than the problem itself if allowed to happen in the first place?
The funny side note ending to the "Day of the Chickens". This is too funny...I have to conclude with this? ( there is a point to be made...even if you don't think it's so funny :)
The father at one point in time...had done so well in his bussiness's....that he decided to move the entire family out into the country and bought an entire farm...complete with Tractors and corrals and pastures with cows and the rest of what you might expect? He knew nothing about "farming" and was more of a Gentleman farmer as you might say even though...he sub-let his pastures to "real farmers" to put horses and cows into as they needed?
And so...as it came time to round up all the chickens so he could put them in the freezer for food.....he had them all counted and we were suppose to "round em up."......so to speak. lol And even with Chickens...some are dumber than others. lol By the time we had caught all the dumb ones first....as we got to the end with only a handful left to catch...these were the smarter ones....and therefore "harder ones" to get a hold of...which is when "LJ" was getting really frustrated and pulled out his moto-cross bike right? lol
We had finally got them all ...except one. This must have been the smartest one if you apply what I said...and this one had become the "prize" in seeing...who could catch this one of course? But in the mind of "LJ"....this one needed something more than just catching. He became so obsessed with this one chicken....that this is when he started tearing the yard apart in a mad dash to "punish him." No joke....that's the words he used!!! LOL
So my other friend ( the older brother ) and I were laughing too hard to keep chasing after this chicken any longer and were about to call it a day....when suddenly....this chicken comes tearing across the yard from around the side of the house....with LJ in "full throttle" mode side sliding around the corner of the house throwing "grass and sod" into the air..and leaving a giant gash in the lawn. He had it "dialed in" with a direct line on this chicken and just ran the chicken over...which left the chicken only partially moving after that. But then...that wasn't enough...he came back around...and backed up on the chicken with his rear tire and then popped the clutch at full throttle and did a "wheelie start" on this poor chicken...which just shot feathers everywhere into the air. LOL
After I got up off the ground from laughing so hard from standing there witnessing his older brother yelling at him and him ignoring his older bother....we all went over to see what was left of this poor chicken...which we couldn't find anything even remotely looking like a piece of chicken...let alone...the chicken itself? LOL All that was left were feathers everywhere...and some bit and pieces of what we knew...use to be a chicken. LOL
So now...we have to go to the father...who is over at the barn finishing up with the head cutting part? And he goes..." I only count 26 ( or something close to this) chickens boys....were still missing one?" And we go......"well....no....we know where the other is...but it's no longer suitable for eating" LOL And the father looks at "LJ"...and he's just goes...." he needed to be punished...so I took care of that". LOL
And that was it....no more was said. Just another day in the life of chaos and havoc ...and life on the farm!! LOL I'll let you get the meaning from the story and use it as you will? LOL
J
Intervention .......6yearsOnEdge
Submitted by kellyj on
I'm the ADHD man here...but my wife is the ADHD counterpart here so I'll take on the position of the non-ADHD spouse here...because I really am in that position for real? It is where I am with her...and I'm where you are with yourself as well at the same time?
I can tell you how I am seeing this...to give you my perspective?
What's the problem here? Heated Arguments
There are probably many reasons why this happens so the why is less important than the what? WHAT do you want here? Not to have arguments? It's what I want...so I can just continue on with the problem and look at it from this perspective as the WHAT....not the WHY? Forget about the WHY completely...and focus on the WHAT for now if you can?
What's the problem again........heated arguments. And the best way not to have one...is to stop it before it starts? As in...intervention:the action or process of intervening.
This is the doing part of not having a heated argument? I like NowOrNever's short list of things to think about and if I apply this to the action of intervening, I can add to this list with a few more things that have worked for me as well.
1) Timing is very important but not always in your control when it starts. But not having important or difficult talks at the wrong time like she said..is one way to intervene before it happens?
2) Location...don't have difficult talks in the bedroom. In other words..."don't shit where you sleep ( or have sex )" Choose a good place to do it and what I found is the safest place of all...is not inside the house or where you live at all. Going for a walk and talking is really good for me to do. I have a strong case of the "H" in my ADHD so impulsiveness is what I have to watch out for the most. My wife is more inattentive so she is less effected by this...but saying, she is effected by me when I get up and move around while I talk which is actually me....managing my anxiety and moving around really helps me...but not her. She has a adverse reaction to this..that only causes her to ramp up even more. Going for a walk together while talking, serves me and her...at the same time?
3) Being prepared and knowing what you want ahead of time. From my perspective now....this is what my wife struggles with and this causes me to have an adverse reaction...because mostly as I feel from her.....I'm just there to be used to help her process her emotions and walk her through...what she should have done before she even opened her mouth? This is so confusing to me...and I have so much trouble even following her sometimes....because she wants something from me....but can't tell me what that is? It's like I have to do all the work as it feels to me...and it appears like she is just too lazy to do this for herself ahead of time so she knows what she wants to say? I know myself well enough...that I have to do this and have an idea of what I want to say...but just knowing what you want...and then how you want to say it....should be the first thing you do....before you even open your mouth? No one can read your mind...to know what's on your mind? If you don;t know even that....no one can do this for you? 99% of all our fights....come from this failure on my wife's part to do just this much...just for a start.
Know what you want. And know exactly what you want to say ahead of time. Don't use the other person to do what is not their job to do in the first place? With the caveat...that I just experienced as of last night with my wife...don't expect to have the other person say do or react on their part ( or put into what you want for yourself.....what you expect them to be like or say once you get there. You can't read their mind either...and you can't predict what anyone else's state of mind is...to know what to expect? That would be physically impossible on every level...so don't feed into it with that part....only your part and what you want )
3) Emotional Lability With my wife and I...we've got double trouble here? Two..with emotional lability...is even more likely to run into trouble. This is not anything you can predict for yourself or anyone else ahead of time. For the non-ADHD spouse....avoid predicting this will happen and being afraid of it. Fear....going in...is a bad place to start a conversation of any kind. If you're feeding your own fear..into the conversation...it will likely get mirrored right back...but with you being the source? Symptom, response, response......cause and effect. In other words....fear is the symptom...and the response you get...will be from your own fear coming right back to you and if you are unaware of your part in this as being the source....you'll think what is being mirrored back to you is coming from the other person and this will definitely lead to conflict. No one liked to be accused of things they aren't doing..and if your the one with the fear..and what you get back is just more fear on top of it...then your the problem here in this case..and you're the one bringing this into the ring and opening the door for failure before you even open your mouth...not the person mirroring this back to you even if.....you are unaware of your own part to play here.
In essence to this....."if a tree...falls in the forest, when no one is there to hear it, did it make any noise?" And the answer is an overwhelming yes!!
The only way to intervene with emotional liability...is to stop the train...before it leaves the station? I can apply being on a roller coaster and at first...your climbing up that first steep hill while your still connected to the drive chain that is pulling you up to the top. Once you reach the top and it goes over....you are no longer connected to the power drive chain.....( click, click, click, click. click........) and now there's no turning back once you go over until the ride is finished? The intervention has to come...while you still hear the ...click, click, click.....which is the early warning sign...that getting off now...is the best and only way to stop it for yourself. That's our part to play...and our responsibility knowing this is part of having ADHD....that no one can do for us? If this is your failure having ADHD to stop this before it happens....then we're the symptom in this case...and everyone else is just the response. If you're over reacting to this...then you're the symptom..and the second respose which is usually anger in our case. double wammy for the other person..and double the fault on our end for not being able to see this? This is all on you..if you're paly both parts.and it's pretty hard as being the person with in the middle of YOU and YOU doing this..and not feeling like they just got run over in a hit and run accident that you caused? You can't blame everyone else..for being irritated or even angry at us...when we lose control and get flooded with emotions first...and then get angry at other people for not liking it when you do this do this to them. If you cannot maintain once the roller coaster gets to the top..and goes over that first big steep plunge...then you need to get off before you reach the top. Trying to stop after that...is already too late.
4) Don't be George W Bush and be the Decider as in Will Ferrel's version of this. "I have thoughts that move from my brain...and down out my mouth hole....and into your ears. That's what the decider does " LOL
Knowing what you want..and how you are going to say it ahead of time...means you don't have to try and decide...while your doing it in the moment. In the moment...is almost too late already. Intervention is ...deciding ahead of time...before it goes out your mouth hole?
When you're too busy thinking...you're not listening? You have to listen..and think...at the same time and if your just thinking only..then your doing what Will Ferrel so poignantly pointed out...as he said.."WHAT". "the decider does?" ( as in the doing part....the only part that matters to the other person?
J
How's it going, 6years?
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Thinking of you and your wife today.
Hi N-O-N - I'm touched that
Submitted by ACD-but-not-B on
Hi N-O-N - I'm touched that you dropped in a kind little follow-up. Thanks.... unfortunately (in classic ADD style) I had only returned to this thread twice since I posted and haven't had time to take in the many replies. I'll try to read them today.
Things aren't going so well at the moment, just another loop on the rollercoaster I guess. As far as EMPATHY, yesterday's blow-up had a series of failed remarks from me to try to show empathy after she had already gotten upset. Seems like the three categories I keep hitting on are:
-- Too stupid and obvious (How are you feeling? Did that rest help you calm down? Are you still too angry to talk? What are your emotions about what happened here?)
-- Asking for directions or hand-holding (What would help you calm down right now? What can we still get done today if we just stop being mad? Can I get something for you? Can I please hug you?)
-- After not getting any direction, making suggestions which always are seen as "ordering her around" (Let me make you a snack -- How about we sit and hug for a second -- Take a few deep breaths -- Let's take a 10 minute break and get back to doing the laundry)
Not that I'm the one with fewer faults around here but I sense that she has some deep issues about feeling rejected, criticised, looked down upon. This marriage used to be where she could come to take shelter from that, not any more obviously. I'm sure if she could talk and reflect on those things with someone, they might stop coloring her perceptions so much... but I have no clue how I would open up this kind of conversation.
Hello, 6Years
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
I do care how you are. I can see from what you recorded that you tried to ask her during the fight that you care very much about her and about the marriage.
It's not all about her weaknesses and anger. Fights never are. Nor is it all about you having messed up. Fights are never, ever due to one of the two.
Just something in passing: did you hear her out, in the middle of that fight or (classically for a man, and I appreciate the gesture when it comes from men) did you try to fix, quiet her, get her to stop doing what she was doing, in the middle of that fight?
Good luck and I sure do think that if the two of you could get to some relationship communication coaching from a competent coach it would help. What if you proposed something like that, that she wasn't "broken" or screwed up, and you weren't, what you wanted with her is to handle doing things better. The how tos.
Certainly, on this website, I've learned from others posting here that forebearance, meaning not taking up the challenge and fighting back was one of the best moves I could do when my partner was in ADHD letting it rip. That's a how-to.
She may have some deep seated issues and you may, but I'd say don't come to that conclusion now as a way of deciding that she's doing the fighting because she's messed up. That is really, really stuff for a therapist to assess. I strongly recommend that you not start bringing into conflict with her your thoughts about her deep emotional issues
Wishing you well. Don't give up. You're worth not giving up, and she's worth it. I can read that you love her a lot, in your posts.
Thanks for the measured and
Submitted by ACD-but-not-B on
Thanks for the measured and kind response N-O-N.
In heated moments it's difficult to find the right balance of stepping in or letting things go. Her ability to talk herself into a fury is well-developed now. The split second does come when I see it's about to happen, and maybe I do try some kind of a cue or to say something. But, interrupting and talking over are on the list of things that spark the anger further.
When I try to sit and just listen and be still, inevitably I give her some impression that offends her. I'm boring a hole into her with my eyes -- stupid look on my face -- staring at the floor like I don't want to be there -- sitting there like a lump.
Of course it makes sense not to fight back, to try my best to take it in without feeling defensive. But inevitably my thoughts will get tangled or piled up, because it can be so much at one time. Not working on formulating your own response while the other person is still talking? Of course! But what if it's a 9-minute rant touching on career, finances, hobbies, parents, health, past mistakes, yesterday's thoughtless remark, and last month's forgotten wallet? How to start a reply but with a lame and general lead-in? "Obviously there are a lot of things that still upset you, and I admit that--" By this point I will have gotten cut off again.