fear of the future

You've got to quit make bad choices.....

Submitted by c ur self on Thu, 11/17/2016 - 22:12

He didn't need you to run his life before you met him, and he want need you to do it if you leave...And he don't need it now, your making the choice to do it!...Besides its only ruining your own life...

(.i cannot rely on him, even for simple things), (im so sick of the forgetfulness, because it means i have to remember everything), (i feel like i am losing myself, i am tired of giving and giving and taking care of him)....

All these statements are based on your expectations, and your intrusion into his life, to try and fix him...Never will happen!.....So if you can't accept that he will never live a life style that resembles your's or what you think his should look like, you will stay frustrated and angry....

I've found that most adults will always manage there lives to suit themselves....I promise you, if a person is experiencing things about themselves that offends them, they will seek help, or, like many, just turn to denial...So you either accept them or suffer the pain and dysfunction in your life, that always follows the placing of expectations, or seeking to fix or control another human...

Been there, took 6 years to figure it out, and another two years to find my way clear to walk away and stop thinking Im responsible for another adult....It don't matter if we are married to them or not....If a person's accepted way of living their life cause you to think you need to run to rescue then it's not their problem...You can't keep mothering and rescuing him...Live and let live...If you can't trust him to do the right thing, then don't put yourself out there....

Only when you accept his reality will it clear up for you....If you can't be a loving wife, then don't be nothing...You only have one job here?

If the product of what HIS life is producing isn't what you desire to be married to?...Then that's fine, that's your reality...Deal with yourself from that perspective, but, don't live a miserable life trying to change, control, or mother another adult....

Think about it....

I understand what you are

Submitted by VaPA on Fri, 11/18/2016 - 00:46

I understand what you are saying... but, how can I manage without an equal partner? How can I be responsible for keeping our life together a float (finances, house responsibilities, children, etc).

He didnt need me to run his life, but he does so very ineffectively... which then has negative ramifications for both of us. I am the one stuck doing all the clean up and fixing everything when it goes wrong. Its tiring.

I am trying very hard to to accept this new reality. Is it ok to accept that I will never feel that I have an equal partner? That I will always have to put in 200%, my whole life with him? What did you do?

This is what I did....

Submitted by c ur self on Fri, 11/18/2016 - 09:05

All the things on your list + some...UNTIL...I realized I had a good life before i married, I was responsible and accountable when I met her, And I wasn't mad or anger about anything:).....So I quit losing myself for the dream!....I got past the anger, the blame, the bitterness....The WISHING things were different, The expectations that were only my illusion, what I thought this marriage could be or should be....That's what I did.....

It took me awhile because I struggled with deep bitterness, I blamed her for destroying my life! And the appearance of marriage that I expected!.....I thought all my emotional problems were hers....How could she be so happy and me so miserable?

Each one of us have unique situations...If I had a spouse who cheated or was intentionally abusive I wouldn't think twice, but, I didn't....I had a sweet loving person, who's priorities just wasn't her marriage for a long time....It seemed like it was just a novelty to make her feel good about herself and to impress her friends and family...But it's different today in many aspects...

I was a huge part of the problem thinking we could agree, So today I don't mind doing anything separate (setting boundaries) unless we can agree and prove it, through commitment and follow through!... I understand where conflict is likely to a rise, experience has taught me, and I do not stick my head in the sand about that any longer (which situations in life does adhd and selfishness override a desire to be ware) and I avoid them....

I don't care how it looks to outsiders, they don't live it, nor could they ever understand, and in reality they don't care too, and couldn't help if they could...No shared bank accounts, No taxes together, drive separately to many functions....If I felt like you, I would never bring children into the world either...Not because their attempt to love them wouldn't be there...Just because of the fallout from difference's and the refusal or inability to not be a victim (for many) because of working, cleaning, and managing life at that heightened level of responsibility and busyness...We must recognize limitations ours and our spouses....WE SHARE EVERYTHING...

So many severe adhd minds, are clearly easily addicted to the next shiny thing...TV, Facebook, Meds, etc.....There is the constant struggle for so many to mange their life quietly, calmly and accountable to their responsibilities....So I don't expect it, and plan for it...So it keeps me on track to not have any emotional attachment about what is someone else's reality and ability....You absolutely get what you see and more importantly experience with people....We can only hide our true selves for so long....There is nothing like a marriage to make it Crystal Clear....

Just accept your bullet points about the reality of your fears, then decide if you can squash those fears with just being who you desire to be? regardless if he is locked into a mind that want allow him to meet you half way in responsibilities?

I don't know if you are a believer, but, I did a lot of soul searching, and praying to get to where I've been brought to....Learn to Live and let Live....And don't forget to look in the mirror, that's the only one we are responsible for....The only fear I think a person should have other than a healthy fear of our creator...Is the fear of what I'm capable of because of my fallen state.....

Blessings

ADHD vs ADHD..."If I Don't Do It, It Will Never Get Done"

Submitted by kellyj on Fri, 11/18/2016 - 12:31

"If I Don't Do It, It Will Never Get Done"

C ,

You and I have mentioned this before...."there is a reason for everything"....and that is a "true statement". But the statement that I just put up here is not a true statement but a "rationalization"....as it sits. How can I same that speaking about exactly what you are talking about? There is a reason for that one too and specific to my wife now ( only ) and no one else.....it is an ingrained "rationalization" that my wife uses as an excuse to excuse herself....from the negative impact her ADHD has on me or anyone else she lives with in terms of her past and the present...coming together and "clashing" with "reality" of what is? My wife is drawing her conclusions about this statement on the fact...that there is an inherent tendency built into what is "stereotypically" a well known phenomenon between men and women in relationship to "house hold chores" and being "responsible"...for the "household"...and all that goes with it including but not limited to....taking care of children and who is suppose to do what and what those expectations are? The only way one could be so dense....as to not know what I'm talking about...I think you'd have to be either dead, or grow up in a cave or some isolated desert island where there is no other human contact with other human beings.

So how can I possibly way that that statement is an excuse or rationalization used by my wife in saying that? Is this experience my wife has any different than what you here mostly ( from women ) and even and especially....those who come here with a spouse who has ADHD? There is a reason I can say this....and it started with a conversation I had with my therapist because there is something.....unreasonable within that statement being applied to my wife's thinking that is not only unreasonable....but completely "unaware" in her thinking? Why? Because she has ADHD ( or something very similar looking....as of yet to be exactly determined but....it is a dysfunction and for now....I'm calling it ADHD because that is what it looks like to me? Takes one to know one...but to know ONE.....is not to know them ALL?

What I know.....that no one else knows...is how dishonest this statement is in terms of trying to apply it to me...and all the problems there are in relationship to that statement which starts....at the beginning..going all the way back to my wife's childhood in relationship to her own....disorder and the "nurture"...not the "nature" of the beast? Simply put?

The Nature of the Beast? In terms of ADHD? Is one...who gets overwhelmed easily and has emotional regulation difficulties. The nature is to try and control her environment...is an effort to manage her ADHD and when she can't manage or cope emotionally....she becomes overwhelmed to the point....that if her world is not organized in exactly one way and one way ONLY....she begins to lose it....and come unglued at the seams. She is after all a woman...and a woman with ADHD...is still a woman none the less? And a Man with ADHD...is still a man...no matter which way you slice it?

The Nature of the Beast...is still the same for a man or a woman....but the Nature of ADHD...is the Beast...is now operating under a different set of criteria and to list in order the TOP priority for anyone with ADHD...is management or their symptoms. The ADHD symptoms that is and that IS....the Nature of the Game here?

But when you try and throw the Nature of the Beast, and the Nature of ADHD...and throw that together with the Nurture of the Beast that is mal-adaptive and disordered from the get go...what you got is a Cluster Fuck.....and all normal rules or "principles" no longer apply? Which is why that statement my wife made as a means to excuse her behaviors ( while seemingly masked by the 'norm"...or what could be seen as reasonable......IS NOT reasonable...and there are reasons why I can say this and it starts with that statement itself.

As my T explained to me in his office based on accessing my wife and knowing more about her history. As he explained...."the message she got from the actions of her own mother....made a clear impression on her.....that no one is going to take cared of me or meet my needs which in here case....was an accurate appraisal of her situation at home. In my...not so humble opinion of her mother....her mother was an absolute failure by any measure you could apply...to be a thoughtful, caring, and Loving parent...and was only in it for herself at all times as her way of moving through life. She appeared to me as person....devoid of caring or any Love and appeared to me as a raging Narcissist with Anti social tendencies. Her mother was diagnosed Bi-Polar...but that is no excuse either?

To give you the most poignant example of what I am talking about....I will give you one example of many...that just so happens to be the worst one I can give that shows this in spades....but is not an isolated instance only that was the worst one...that's all?

As told to me by my wife....who to this day...is unclear about how she feels about this incident ( part of her denial to protect herself from what she does not want to see ) Her mother apparently....caught ( one of her ex- husbands )....screwing the neighbor at her apartment ( considered friends ) in the same complex where they lived. Why...the husband was doing that or any reason he might have....along with why her mother was in their apartment uninvited to actually catch them....is still unclear but I think there might be more than one reason for this and I am tending towards giving the benefit of the doubt ( slightly.....51 - 49 % ) to the husband not excusing "cheating" but the underlying reasons to "why" he might do so? I think from what I know, that her mother especially...is not hold harmless by any means imaginable no matter what she said. Nothing that came of her mothers mouth was actually based on facts or reality...and this was clear to me...in most anything and everything she said to me....in person ...or what I witnessed myself?

Moving on her past what her mother told my wife....and moving along into the facts of evidence. When she caught these two together engaged in what she says was screwing the neighbor's wife.....I get the feeling that this was an embellishment and exaggerations of the facts. The best indicator of the past and what is said...is the pattern in the present and the best predictor of the future? Based on what I saw and heard. within this pattern...her mother would make up any reason no matter how far fetched it was....to excuse her own behavior...and blame it on someone else? She told the hospital...that my wife had beaten her and was torturing her physically ...as a means to excuse her unruly outlandish behavior and blame it on my wife when she was living with my wife at the time when my wife told her she had to leave because she was causing a disruption in her life after taking her in to care and feed her and take care of her mother. In return for this more than giving kind form of giving to her mother...her mother turned on her and told her entire family including all the people in the hospital when she was admitted for some physical problem.....that my wife was beating her and that's why she had to leave and get out of the house and away from my wife which was beyond a lie....it was downright absurd and delusional.

If you want to test to see if a person is a Narcissist.....fail them in some way....and watch what will happen next? Something will happen guaranteed.....and you will be the one who takes the fallout for it and will be punished for not meeting their needs and not putting them on a pedestal and glorifying them in that in which...they feel entitled to? Bu not meeting their entitled expectations...this is met with rage and Narcissistic injury to a person like this and that deserves ( with self righteous indignation and extreme prejudice )...."punishment" and it is within their "right" to punish those offenders who "dare" withhold from them...what they are entitled to?

Why? Because "I" said so....that's why? Coming from the deluded mind of someone who thinks this way? There is no other justification needed for them to do anything? The "ends" always justify the "means" with a full blown Narcissist and they need no other excuse...to do anything they do? But....they are not "dumb" as to not know that they can't say that and get away with it...so they just fabricate anything...to prove their innocence....at the hands of them turning on people and exacting the punishment ( as they see fit ) to match the offense they feel from this action that was intolerable in terms of the Narcissistic "injury" they have suffered from at the hands of another person?

I can put this another way putting this into context.....a 2 year old...is a fricking "raging" Narcissist at that age...but as we all were that way at one point in time....we grew up and stopped thinking like a 2 years old and using 2 year old Narcissistic thinking to operate under? When a 2 year old...doesn't get their way....they act out because of this Narcissistic injury they've experienced ..and cannot see outside of anything else but how they feel about any situation that they don't like? It's why they call it....the terrible "Twos". It's terrible...because you are dealing with a full blown Narcissist...in miniature form but that is consider normal...and we all start out that way and then we evolve into the people we become when we mature and move away from being that way anymore.

But when you've got a person...who refuses to grow up....and remains in that 2 year old "state of mind" emotionally speaking...and further...thinks and acts and reasons like a 2 year old....what you got is an adult...with the mind of a child....who is emotionally....."imbalanced" and is raging all the time ( on the inside )....so when ever they are not getting their way..they act out just like a 2 year old in a terrible way....exactly the same? And any perceived offense in terms of them and what they want....is perceived as a personal attack ( an injury to them..in the form of this Narcissistic "injury" they experience...and the resulting rage from this.......and therefore must be punished by any means available? ) And what serves them at all times...is what they expect from others and if you cross them.....then they will exact the fitting punishment...that they feel entitled to do no matter how ridiculous or how completely unreasonable it may seem to anyone else looking at this from the outside? And as a means to validate and prove to themselves their own invisibility.....they get their Jolly's....by controlling and manipulating others at other expense in that this proves to them their worth...in an almost "worshiping" capacity as if they are the "thing"...that needs to be "worshiped" along with anything of importance to them....and low be it of anyone else...to criticize of to cast dispersions on them since they appear to be walking on "hallowed ground" and those beneath them....need to abide...or else!!! "Taboo" law breakers.....are punishable by "death"...whether figuratively or....in reality sometimes as it can manifest itself in the extreme of this?

So now back to the story....which I am applying what I know...to what my therapist said about my wifes mother in that ...she was this person. ( a 2 year old..living in the body of an adult )...and this was her issue....as stated and I trust in my therapist ( as a trained educated and experienced 35 year veteran and a doctor in psychology ...who's worked with these people enough in his many years of practice...to know one by their actions and not have to actually meet them in person to be pretty damn sure...within a reasonable doubt? In this case...if it looks like a Duck...and quacks like a Duck....a Duck in this particular instance...is a very, very predicable creature...and it is the pattern that gives them away...because the pattern is never changing and highly predictable? This pattern however....has elements within it...that do not belong to any other pattern even if two different patterns look similar or have over laps?

So what are these elements that make this stand out? I'll proceed with the story which will show itself that way?

So as told...when my wifes mother caught these two together....a fight emerged ( no doubt ) which continued on across the parking lot..and now into the living room of the apartment where my wife lived and while she was there. She didn't see the offense as told...she only saw her mother and her husband at the time...having a fight about something that appeared to be out of control at that time? But in respect to the husband...he appeared to be on the defensive and was not raging or trying to deny his responsibility...he was just trying to keep his head down and not insite the fight any more? And apparently...that was not good enough in terms of her mother and her mother demanded he leave immediately trying to throw him out the door and he refused since...he lived there...where else is he going to go...right then in that moment...like her mother demanded? And that right there...was when this Narcissistic injury and this refusal....needed to be punished since this was such an offense...to a 2 years old in the body of an adult?

So..what does her mother do about this situation and how does she deal with it? She goes into the bedroom and gets her husbands loaded gun....and proceeds back into the living room..and starts threatening to shoot her husband...if he doesn't leave like she demands? Was she in any fear of injury of retaliation from her husband? Absolutely not ( as witnessed by my wife at the time )...her husband was guilty of something...and was not trying to do anything more than just stay in the room with her..and refusing to leave. That was the offense (the Narcissistic injury that her mother experienced and the resulting rage from this injury..is what she was responding to ) that warranted...pulling out a loaded gun out...and threatening to kill him with it if he did not abide by what she wanted him to do as she demanded which he refused...again...that was his crime in that moment...not from imposing any physical harm to her or threatening her physically in any way?

And during this encounter and in the process of this event.....her mother ( somehow? ) accidently / or not......pulled the trigger on the gun which shot a bullet through the floor of her apartment...and straight down into the bedroom of a woman who was in her own bed asleep...and the bullet went right into this woman leg .......which almost proceeded to having surgeons in the emergency ward at the hospital.... to have to remove her leg...but thankfully.....they wer able to save this woman leg which was the only blessing in this story as the end result of this chain of events and the chain reaction on the part of her mother?

And when the police arrived at the scene to get the accounting from her mother? Her mother.....blamed it on her husband and told the police...."Well it's his fault because he didn't remember to put the safety on the gun..and if he had...that wouldn't have happened?"

Is it further to New York....or by plane here....that's the question? Do you think the police believed her story..and what do you think they did in this case? Did they arrest the husband for cheating...or did they do something here with my wife's mother? The answer is....the court order a psychological evaluation done to her....which was when they discovered she had Bi-Polar disorder? But that does not explain why....a person pulls a gun out and threatens to kill someone and shoots a bullet.....WITH INTENTION...... as a warning shot across the bow...as a means to say....." if you don;t do what I am demanding....I will shoot you if you don't" And then tries to blame that on the fact ( who knows probably not she was just lying again ) that it was the husbands fault for not putting the safety on and if he had...that wouldn't have happened? And I personally....do NOT believe ........a single word her mother said , including her husband being caught "screwing the neighbors wife" which was just more of the same as a means to justify her mother.....attempting to throw her husband out the door....because she didn't want him there anymore? That was the sole reason, motivation and intent...that her mother had because.....

"I don't want you here anymore ....that's what "I" want!! " That's it. There is no more to this story. " I want".....or......"I don't want".....end of discussion. And if I don;t get what I want....I'm gonna shoot you. Bang!!!!

Son in terms of my wife....believing that if she wants something she needs to get it or do it for herself because no one is going to do it for me or meet my needs? " This is not the reason in "Reality" that my wife's feels this way? In her "reality"...and the one she grew up in.....her needs were not met and her beliefs of why that is.....is not connecting the real reason my wife feels this way so often...and is compelled to feel that no one will ever take care of me do give me what I want so I have to do it because NO ONE is going to do it for me"...because she had a gun wielding 2 year old for a mother...living in the body of an adult who was a pathological lier with a character disorder and Bi-polar on top of it? This kind of lying is not designed to cover up something of to hide her mis deeds....it is designed to get her what she wants at anyone else expense because she feels entitled to it...and therefor....the ends always justify the means...and she believed it to the bottom of her sole.

I am entitled to it...and therefore....any means to get it ( including fabricating any story needed in that moment ) is what I am entitled to do as well. "I need....I need......" as the 2 years hangs on her mothers leg ...and drops to the floor in the fetal position and cries has a melt down for not getting a cookie.

So now...if you put this into context with me and my ADHD? I am trying my best to meet the needs of my wife....but when you got something like this getting in the way and these unfounded completely irrational 'beliefs" that come from the fact...that my wife....cannot stand to look at her mother and see her for what she is....and instead...still chooses to believe her mother and all these lies that she was told so she can still hold the image of her mother that she adopted to compensate for the fact that her mother...was this person...and did not Love anyone but herself..and that includes my wife on the list....as in everyone not just my wife in this case......that is too much for her to fathom..and why she is still in denial of this and why it is so hard to hear anything to the contrary of this magical thinking she had to adopt...to explain how her mother can Love her and still do what she did...at the same time?

These are two incongruent...and incompatible things fighting each other inside my wife's thought process...and the ambivalence in this internal conflict...is still producing these distortions of reality and causing my wife to hallucinate and see things that don't exist ...because of this issue that has yet to be resolved in my wife's mind?

So in essence to all of this as the bottom line...my wife was trained to take her mothers side in everything all the time. And is she didn't....there was a price to pay? A severe consequence....speaking in those terms? And in speaking in those terms.....my wife...is still answering to her mother.....instead of me or anyone else...and until she snaps out of it...and wakes up....she will believe what is "not right"...and think that it is?

And no matter how many times I try and convince her otherwise....she is taking her mothers side in all things...in fear of the consequences...still to this day. This is "operant conditioning"...hard as work here and my wife has no ability to see it....but she can "feel it" none the less?

Bj Skinner....was the pioneer in this field of research...and he actually developed a missile guidance system that was accurate to within 98%....by training Pigeons to peck at a picture of Japanese war ships in the nose cone of a flying missile......by training the Pigeons to peck at the screen with a picture of a Japanese battle ship.....get some corn kernels that would drop down each time the Pigeon pecked at correct picture of a Japanese ship they saw...which actually turned the missing in that direction....through a tiny window in the nose of the missile during World War II. It was only because congress at the time....lacked faith that this would be accurate enough..and not have the Pigeon....incorrectly peck the missile in the wrong direction...which moth balled this discovery so that missile guidance system was never applied which is why many people have never heard of this?

But skinner went on to put this theory into practice with humans and the same "operant conditioning" is relevant to this discussion? This is where....'feelings" can be extremely valuable on one hand...and completely deceptive on another? If someone has been "mind fucked"....by another human begin this way.....then those feelings are not going to be accurate...and the lies they were told are still going to be believed?

IMHO....it is a "mind fuck".....by any other name you would like to use here....whether it be Religion or any other topic you want to choose...where misinformation and ignorance come into play?And if that's the case...and a person has been "mind fucked" and conditioned in this way....it is also the responsibility of that person...to 'Un-Fuck" yourself....and figure all this out before you say anything else and put "your foot into it"...as they say?

Sorry for the profane terminology....but I think that way of saying it puts this into context extremely well? It is what I have been working on for years now...and I have done a pretty good job of Un-Fucking myself....and not blaming anyone else for my personal problems for the most part as best I can? But the first step in all of this.... before than can happen...is to wake up and smell the bacon....and stop believing what is "wrong"....and see the things about yourself and you past...in a light that is not always easy to see. Not easy to see is not that it is not obvious once you see it.....it's not easy to see because it involves admitting that you are not everything you would like to be and have done things that are not always easy to admit and say were wrong?

Just because you believe something to be true....doesn't mean it is and that right there.....and a willingness to see an alternative and one you don't like or don't want...is the first step in figuring out....just what are you going to do about it and find a way around it so you can continue on down the road instead of having one wheel in the ditch and is spinning and going no where fast?

The bottom line here is.......figuring out what you are doing wrong......not what everyone else is? IMHO? Knowing WHAT is wrong....is different than saying that other person is wrong? If I can make that distinction which is just part of this process? It takes two to tango as they say......"wrong" as in "fault finding" when trying to figure out "how to do this"....is worthless and irrelevant and waste of time. That is....if the goal is to figure out the "how to" for yourself? If you aren't trying to figure out "how to do this" for yourself and waiting for someone else to do it for you....then your a victim to that other person..and just in a perpetual holding pattern and waiting for them to figure it out for you if that's the case? Exactly the case with my wife and her mother...who my wife was made dependent on....out of her own dysfunction and totally selfish mind of 2 year old who needed what she needed..and didn't care about anyone else?

That put that original statement and it's meaning into a completely different context...and to apply it now in light of all of this...it takes on a completely different meaning which is the only meaning that is relevant to me.....because that meaning and what is behind it...is what is causing the problems in our relationship which is why I am focused on "it".....not necessarily my wife?

As my father ( who was the one who said it ) so poignantly pointed out to me a long time ago....."it doesn't matter who's fault it is....when you dead." He had his moments or brilliance...and that was one of them. And in respect to my father who I've shared my own dissatisfaction about.....was nothing like what I heard and saw with my wife's mother....and cannot even place him in the same category. I have to be compassionate with my wife at times...and remind myself of this....because I may be familiar with this topic from my experience...but my father was not a gun wielding 2 year old......who blames her husband for forgetting to put the safety on as to why the woman in the apartment below her got shot in the leg?

Even within that..,and all that goes with it.....my father was a completely different animal...and on his behalf....was not an animal or behaved like one....in light of what my wife had to live with in terms of her mother? Again...my own judgment of her.....but I have my own reasons for feeling that way too? My personal feelings is her mother should have gone to jail for doing what she did...but she was able to convince everyone with her pathological lying....that it wasn't her fault completely?

Like as the end of Perry Mason....." Don't you understand...I had to do it". Bullshit....I'm not buying it for a second.

Don't You Understand? continued........

Submitted by kellyj on Fri, 11/18/2016 - 14:50

The Parable of the Sower
so that, ‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven.’” Then Jesus said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? Then how will you understand any of the parables? The farmer sows the word.…

Mark 4:13

Alexander the Great could have been a fun-loving wastrel, reveling in his physical prowess and beauty, adored by those attracted to wealth and power. However, his father, King Philip, had other expectations and called not for a king or warrior, but for a famous philosopher. “Aristotle,” the King enjoined, “Teach my son to lead.”

Ushered into the great hall, Aristotle began: “If you are not to be a despot, know that the men and women outside your borders are not beasts to be slaughtered and humiliated. That leads to resentment, uprisings, and endless warfare. Lead from your heart and mind and listen to theirs.”

Success is not about you; it requires others.

Whereas Alexander had worked to become a master of the sword, Aristotle taught him gratitude and admiration–especially for the people he conquered. “Listen to the people you conquer. They seek to be respected and have their wisdom, their history acknowledged. Learn of their greatness–of their gods, of their ways. In this way, they will learn to trust you.

“Learn from their elders. Discuss how they can thrive in your empire. They will lift their heads and hearts to build a new world with you. They will be grateful, and you will gain the only true immortality: of life that has added to life.”

That was how Aristotle taught Alexander leadership: ethos, logos and pathos—character, logic and compassion—not just the ‘logic’ (competence) manifest by the sword. And that was how this fierce warrior acted. He put down the sword once people were conquered. He showed tolerance and respect, and was admired, even loved, by those he conquered. At 33, he reigned over the entire known world.

https://unreasonable.is/do-you-focus-on-your-needs-or-the-needs-of-others/

And now I know you’re dissatisfied
With your position and your place
Don’t you understand
It’s not my problem

I wish that for just one time
You could stand inside my shoes
And just for that one moment
I could be you

Yes, I wish that for just one time
You could stand inside my shoes
You’d know what a drag it is
To see you

excerpt from "Positively 4th Street" written by Bob Dylan

There are two kinds of people in the world –
those who walk into a room and say ‘Here I am’
and those who say ‘There you are’.
– Abigail Van Buren, Dear Abby columnist

"Ask not what your country can do for you....ask, what you can do for your country"

John F Kennedy

I could go on and on with including many things that are saying the same thing. What I understand is there are two kind of people in this world. Those who are victims...and those who are not.

For those who do not understand, that probably most if not all people who have ADHD...are suffering from victim mentality from their experiences with life and having ADHD. If you are a victim to a victim, speaking from that place....then you've got two victims....trying to get their needs met from one another...and not one will ever win in that situation?

As I see it in light of my wife and her mother for example....is a victim....trying to teach a child how to live in this world. That is the message or word that my wife received and that is still how she thinks about things and see's herself and why she does not understand?

What I understand is.....I was a victim and but I'm not anymore...but what is required of me now...is to be a leader without a lot of skills her...since a victim is not a leader. A victim can only follow which means....I have to lead...if I am with a follower and I have to get the skills I need to do it....with a victim is not a leader....but is trying to approach things that way which is why the methods and the thinking in my wife are incompatible with what she wants. In the excerpt I included above about Alexander the Great....what Aristotle taught him was how to lead and how to get what he wanted and it was not by the sword....once he conquered and won over the people he was trying to conquer. In respect to Alexander the Great...those who live by the sword ...die by the sword .....and he came to understand this principle and applied it as Aristotle taught him.

And in respect to my wife....she has yet come to understand this...and why it isn't working for her. Her mother...the day before she died....was still fighting with the sword and never understanding why people never met her needs and remained a victim to her last breath on this planet. It was a tragedy....of untold proportions but now......in respect to my wife who is not able to see this...she is carrying the torch that her mother handed her...and trying to go about it in the very same way which is why......It still isn't working...and she is still trying to figure this out as to why? Actually...she isn't trying to answer the why...she is just doing...what she was taught and that right there...is why she remains a victim to this day at age 60..and can't understand why she is so unhappy sometimes?

That line at the end of the Bod Dylan song...I threw in there because on some level....you know this is true even if you can't do as he wished...and live in another persons shoes? "So you could see what a drag...it is to see you" That's the net result of being a victim...it is not the cause and with no ability to see cause and effect....you aren't going to see the reasons why?

And so on it goes...as they say? I think the point I am trying to make her especially in light of this seeming ...not understanding? If you are a follower...and this is what you were taught to be..and to be in service of someone else? Then you are expecting a victim to be the leader..and this will never work? If you are with a victim....or you are a victim yourself......then the only way this will work...is you need to become a leader even if that's not what you were taught. If you cannot lead and become a leader...and you are expecting that a victim...lead you....then this is an impossible situation and it is doomed to failure?

If you are a woman....who was taught to be a follower and to follow after a man and do as the man says...and for the man to be the HEAD of the household......and the man you are with...is a victim with victim mentality.....then what part of this do you not understand? Clearly...only person can lead in this case...and it's not the person you are with in this case? This isn't a partnership in this particular case if that is the expectation. If that is the expectation that woman ...follow men and the man is the head of the household and is the "provider" and the woman tends the nest and is the follower.....this old school way of thinking...is why this won't work and it's why if this is happening and the problems that exist from it are happening?

What is "WRONG" here...is within that expectation itself and trying to fit a square peg....into a round hole and wondering why this isn't working? Some body has got to be the leader...if you have two people are both victims in this case or put into other words......two followers? If you have two followers who are waiting and expecting for the other one to lead.....well?

What part of that...do you not understand? That's my two bits into this as far as my wife is concerned but more over...it is what I see in many of the post on this forum..and is why I wanted to throw my two bits into the ring...and tell you what I see from an reformed victim....who no longer is blind and is not in denial anymore? I amy be the most reluctant leader on the planet...but that doesn't mean I can't even if it's hard?

Then Jesus said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? Then how will you understand any of the parables? The farmer sows the word.…

Connecting the dots,J.....

Submitted by Zapp10 on Sat, 11/19/2016 - 07:50

I am a "solver". I like a challenge of just about any kind (except where possible loss of life is involved). I am a "learner and a doer"......something needs "fixing?".......do the homework and figure it out, ask questions, seek input. And I learned to not lose my mind when I couldn't fix or understand something.....very freeing. What you wrote in this post gave me an "aha" moment. While he has acknowledged the adhd and is s l o w l y processing it, there has been a "little something" nagging at me. He isn't in denial but he isn't "accepting" of the situation either. OH MY!!!!! He is a "victim"!!!! I feel relieved.......is THAT odd? Not to me. THAT is a step in the process for him and that is encouraging for me. I NEVER equated his current behavior with being a victim. Hello adhd.....welcome denial. Good bye denial......hello mr. victim. Yay for me(and him) because THAT requires a different strategy....GAME ON!!

I am still living in the apt above our home. It has been a year. It has been good for me. I can hope it will have been good for him. I hold no illusion how this will all play out.....because my true hope?.........that we end up, individually.....content and at peace and accepting of who we are.....and THAT is a GOOD place to be. As a couple? .........THAT'S another step to take.

Thanks again J

What Part of This...."Do You Not Understand?" (part 3)

Submitted by kellyj on Sun, 11/20/2016 - 13:09

As I gave this a little more thought.....I wanted to include a very important aspect to the story of my wife's mother.....who became so enraged at her ( 2nd or 3rd Husband....who knows, I can't keep track of them? )...that she is standing there with a loaded gun in her hand....and threatening to kill him....if he does not leave immediately!!! "Leave!!!! NOW!!! I DISMISS YOU!!!!! "...which proceeded with a refusal that went along with this .....that prompted her to actually go get a loaded gun...in order to force him into compliance...literally at the "threat of death"...with a gun put to his head in order to "make him"...or "force him" to leave against his will? As I thought about this more....and thought about what could possibly be the motivation for someone in this situation....to be so angry and so full of rage and hatred....that this unconscious ( and somewhat symbolic action or pulling out a loaded gun which only has one person by design....which is to kill things and namely....a hand gun in particular? People no less?

When I said that my wife is unclear about this incident in terms of her mother and WHY this happened? My wife is not unclear that what her mother did was wrong? My wife is unclear of the facts...as told to her by her mother..since that was the only version she got about this entire incident...even though as she told me herself....this ( one ex husband ) ...was neither violent or abusive per se....what she remembers..and all she can remember in terms of herself.....was the constant fighting and arguing all the time in her life as a child....and these arguments, fights and even the abusive moments with all these different men that her mother brought home and married. As my wife recalled to me when I asked her what was the worst part of this for you? Did these men actually abuse you personally? Or was it these eruptive battles that raged while you and your brother were in the room with them at the time that was so disruptive for you? As in my wife's recollection of these events...she said only 1 of these men was actually physically and verbally abusive to her and her brother....but mainly that came with being an alcoholic and being drunk all the time? The rest of the abuse and violent behavior...came from these major fights that took place seemingly ( a lot? ).....but the common thread here that my wife is not putting 2 + 2 together is....there were a number of men ( or husbands ) we are talking about....since her mother would marry them immediately and not just "live with them" which was standard practice if you are following the normal "protocol" at the time that is? Base on the accepted "norm" here which would tend to mask the problem as I'm seeing it?

And within that common thread or what was the "norm" for her entire childhood as a whole?

Was her mother.

Her mother's anger and animosity towards these "MEN" ( or "MEN" in general )

Failure....in some way on the part of "ALL of these Men

Her mother...always being the one..to throw these MEN...to the curb and in ending her many marriages

A clear message told to my wife her entire life from her mother that said ( literally speaking )

a) What is most important...is to find a Man and get married. Priority # 1

b) You can't trust anyone......they are all out to screw you and especially MEN!!!

c) Men never pull their weight...and it is never fair. I have to work and clean house...and these Men are taking advantage of me and they are the bad guys here....and I'm the poor victim. I've been wronged here....I've been "fouled". They "fouled ME!!!!" Just like in a recent post I put up with a clip from the movie "Seabiscuit"...when Toby Maguire is "fouled" in the race...and cannot see past this to see how this became more important..;.than actually winning the race. ( which he lost because of this nearsighted inability from his inner rage over this incident? )

And as I took the bits and pieces of this mystery...that my wife cannot explain to me only in...she says she doesn't like thinking about these things because it only makes her feel bad and she also seems to have a lot of "holes" in her memory about these events since she says she use to "block them" from her thinking?

On the other hand....her brother does not seem to suffer from the same memory loss or holes in his thought process and he remembers quite well a lot of the details but he seems to have just the opposite issue here in comparison to his mother....in that he has "issues" and a lot of pent up anger and some rage too....but seemingly.....against "women"now...and when he gets in these moments of frustration ( or use to when he got drunk ) he would get very hostile towards "women" and call them ALL ..."BITCH'S and WHORES!!" As I have been told by my wife...since he stopped drinking ( he had to or was going to die from alcoholism and drinking ) over 17 years ago and has been dry ever since?

But in my only experience with this myself and ever witnessing this myself (to a lessor level ) and actually saw and heard this happen personally? Was two weeks before her mother died....at Christmas when we were all sitting together in the rehab facility where her mother was at the time? We were all sitting at the table together eating...and her mother started going off on some guy who she didn't like there ( one of the attendants ) and then continued on complaining about this woman in the room ( a guest ) was making a bunch of noise in mind and thought she should be quiet since this was bothering her at the time. And I watched how both my wife and her brother...chimed in and made a comment too about how this was "RUDE" ( like monkey see monkey do again....just on que ...joining in with her mother and making comment about this woman ) but right after this happened and I was looking right at her brother ......her brother said....."women are Bitch's!!"....but he was looking directly at his mother when he said it. I am not imagining this or just seeing something that wasn't happening in this case because I have never heard her brother say that as was told to me....but now...."there it is" and there it is right at that moment....in context to everything else...and looking directly at his mother at the same time when he said it. My wife and I were there too and my wife didn't here her brother say it....but I heard it...and her mother heard it...and her mother just looked the other direction and did not acknowledge him? It was exactly what I saw..and it struck me "funny"....since it seemed so out of context to anything that was actually happening and prompted me to ask myself......"Gee...where did that come from?"

What I see are patterns here and this is what is so telling to me? First off...the woman they were complaining about...was actually ( in my opinion ) doing something very generous ( at Christmas time no less )....since she brought with her an accordion to sing Christmas carols to her mother.....who was a patient there and looked to me to have dimension and was kind of checked out? I have actually only a few minutes before that...gone over to her and talked to her about her accordion..and told her I thought it was really great that she was entertaining us..and actually Thanked her and told her I appreciated it hearing her sing? So where is all this negativity coming from and why is my wife and brother in such a foul mood and complaining about hearing Christmas carols at Christmas time and thinking this woman was Rude...in that context?

Why? Why? Why? All I have to work from...is what I know and compare it to what I saw and heard? The part of the story that I haven't shared is the part that is kind'a of sketchy in my wife.....but I've heard enough of her brother relate a lot of things to me...that kind of fills in the blanks and what I personally think this is all about? Reality can be "stranger than fiction" here...but the truth will set you free?

The "Truth" here...as I am seeing it from my perspective....involves a bit of wisdom to figure this out? As told and putting the pieces together here with what I don't know? My wife's mother had reported to my wife many times growing up....that she didn't believe... she was actually the "paternal daughter" or her own father? That's what she said but no one in her family ever talked about this to verify it in the entire family ever so that was never confirmed however.....my wife says her mother never looked like any of her brothers and sisters and kind of "stood out" in that way as well?

As a the story goes.....my wife's mother was sent to live with her Grandparents after a certain age.....because she and her father did not get along or there was some undisclosed conflict between the two of them....that no one in the family seems to understand or be aware of? As told? I Love a good mystery...but I hate unsolved ones? It is my natural tendency in everything to want to know the facts. Just the fact ma'am...and then apply it like a detective in order to figure the mystery out? My wife hates the fact ( only sometimes...sometimes it's fun and she enjoys this ) when we watch TV and mysteries...and I guess what is going to happen and then I'm right only in that it spoils the mystery if you already know what's going to happen? I get that.....but sometimes it just comes out of me since....I don't know either...I'm just guessing? But I'm a pretty good guesser in that case and it comes from my inherent tendency...to question everything and what to know the answer? I can't stop!!! LOL But I am a pretty good detective none the less because of it? Moving on here...just prefacing that I do this all the time so it is not to mean I know absolutely for a fact....I'm just good at playing the game of "Clue" and "who done it" mysteries? "Mrs Peacock...in the library....with a candle stick!!!" By Jove!!!! This was mentioned a long time ago here on this forum in calling me "Sherlock" in the negative of this..so I'm apologizing up front for my unfounded , unprofessional evaluations.her and saying this is just my opinion..even if I think I'm right? I'm just saying here.....I think I'm in the Ball Park none the less? It's just what appears like to me....that's all?

In my opinion...and going with my wife's mother and taking her at face value.....that my wife's mother's intuition if that's all it was....is right. At face value. She was no the daughter of her father....but she was the daughter or her own mother.....if you want to put this into context? And if no one is talking about this...and nothing was ever brought up or mentioned.....it would appear to me that SHAME....was the culprit here in my wife's mothers family....and her father probably treated her just like the Red Hared step child that she really was? And she actually had Red Hair ( strawberry blonde ) and a rudy face which was not like anyone else in her entire family ...even if recessive ( 25% probability )...which means out of 9 children....and only one child with red hair would be pushing the odds way out of scale as what "should be?"..perhaps..... at least one other child showing these features out of 9 children?

And so you've got this dark secret of shame to hind...and my wife's mother was the scape goated her and sent her away because of the animosity and even hatred she felt at the hands of her father who not only was just disappointed with her....her "shunned her" and sent her away? And as far as who the real father was.....no one will probably ever know but that in itself...might even be more of a reason for this....thinking incest as one possibility...as a worst case scenario. What is possible here...and what is not possible and what's the worst case scenario....all come into play?

This is where I get a little testy myself and why I have trouble understanding things sometimes? This kind of shit...drives me absolutely crazy...in that such a thing can happen in the first place....but in response....no one says anything and shuts up and just clams up about it just because it might be embarrassing? Jesus Christ!! How purely selfish can you get!!! This drives me crazier than crazy can be and why I get so frustrated at time with my wife who just "clams up" and never says anything and......"dismisses it"...in the same way it appears her mother....her brother and their entire family ( but expecially the father in this case ) "dismisses it" and pretends it doesn't exist? In essence to my wife mother....they dismissed her..;.and pretended she didn't exist? And bring Jesus up in mentioning this......it's because of this "Jesus" thing that this even happened and it was not "Jesus's" fault? Jesus...would have never done such a thing...and Jesus didn't tell people to do this in response to shame and guilt .....and then blame it on him...as why they did and use him as an excuse out of their own embarrassment over this? "What will the people in church have to say and how will they judge me? " This is what pissed me off so bad...when that guy got up there in front of us ( at Jesus summer camp...not really but it's what I'm calling it ) when he's telling us that "if Jesus were here....he'd tell you that smoking Pot is bad? What? You can Read Jesus's mind? Give me a break!!! Jesus Christ!!! Grow some balls and say...."I don't think it's good and I think it's bad"..for crying out loud you big wiener!!! lol This...is where it all starts in my humble opinion? Using Jesus as a scapegoat...for all your personal ( or someone else's personal problem ) along with the Devil himself? ( which I don't believe in personally because of this very reason? ) It's really easy to scapegoat and blame things on something outside of yourself....to dismiss your own responsibility and the Devil makes a great excuse....to deny responsibility? This stuff pisses me off...to no end!!! All I have to say about that is....The Devil You Know is safer than the one you don't? Jesus was a real man who lived for real? You can't say that about the Devil or prove otherwise except in a story in a book? I think that story...got misinterpreted too? But I digress :)

And the same damn thing happened to my mother too? She was molested by...( none other than a Church Elder ) when she was 12 or 13 years old...and when she told her mother about this ( The Puritanical Domynatirx ).....and since the Church was the only source for socialization at the time where they lived...her mother not only did not believe her...but invited this guy back for another round? True story...and one I only heard when my mother got checked out in the beginning of her Alziemers...that she lost her inhibitions and lost her ability to be embarrassed about it any more since she had been carrying that around with her her entire life...and then it just comes out....at the end? And none of this...has anything to do with religion.....and Jesus would have never done that....that's for sure!!! I'm very very sure of that one...based on the fact of evidence you have to go on? In the name of who again? Who's this we....you got a turd in your pocket? This makes me so angry sometimes...I can spit. But that's beside the point....back on topic here!! LOL

So now....in context....my wifes mother was not angry at ALL men!!! She was angry at ONE man....who shunned her and dissapointed her...and dissmissed her like she didn't exist and sent her away to live with the Grandparents...while all the other kids remained at home and they scape goated her probably telling her it was because of her and the conflict she created over this....and everyone was just too stupid to get with the program??? Or just plain ignorant either way? This is so freaking primitive in respect to humanity....I can't even begin to tell you how frustrating this is to see and hear? And what I'm not buying for a second either...is that her father...did not know what he was doing and the reasons why either!! He knew what he was doing...and what he was doing was throwing away someone else's life in service of his own just so he could feel better. IMHO.....he must have been a gigantic wiener.... and a "limp dick" himself putting it that way? Perhaps at the time my wife's mother was born.....speaking in those terms? The one who did that to her and that's what started this whole mess....as I am seeing it? And my brother in law...is not angry with ALL women.....he's angry with ONE woman....his mother....as he sat and looked right at her and said...."women are Britches and Whores!! " And personally feel...even those not the exact same sentiments....that my brother in law was pointing and looking directly at the source...even if he had no idea he was doing that in a more "Freudian slip" if you will?

This is where it all starts. Shame, scapegoating and pointing finger and casting blame and passing the Buck...due a bunch of weak minded people with their heads cut off like a bunch of chickens....literally "Chicken Shit".....who haven't got the guts to speak up or say anything? And using the Devil and Jesus and the Bible to hide behind out of their own weakness and insecurities? As means to justify their own disjunction...as it appeared to me since I heard...that her mothers family was very religious? In my mind ....that...is not....very religious. That is just stupidly....run amok!!! IMHO?? It certainly has nothing to do with Jesus....I can assure of you that?

Look at all the damage that was done...in the name of the Church here..and using religion and beliefs as a means to scapegoat and try to escape the consequences of their actions and blame it on someone or something else. The hypocrisy...is mind blowing!!! This is why...I have a hard time walking into a Church.....because this is exactly where you find this...and no where else in my experience and why in my experience.....people who aren't this way....don't act and do such things? I'm not condemning going to Church or Religion...I'm saying...if you want to find people who do this....this is where you will find them since Jesus and the Devil....make such good hosts...in other words..... as a means to do this. And when you can't use them to scapegoat people...then you have to use something else instead or are forced to look at reality..and use that one instead. You know....Reality?? The one we actually live in?

But the bottom line here and how that effects me? The biggest issue I face with my wife? Is here undounded and somewhat....bias that she has about men and their misdeeds....and how she sees things from the same kind of deluded perspective which was the one her mother gave her and taught to her...through her own misguided perceptions? My wife inability to Trust...and to know what is real....came from the same "dismissive" attitudes which translated directly...as I am saying this.

A dismissive / avoidant person by nature....dismisses what they don't want to see.....and avoids looking at the truth because that would be uncomfortable for them....and it's easier to just pass the buck...and blaim it on something else.....and then calls it GOOD. That's the pattern...and that's the concept right there? And trying to fill in the blanks with what I know and using my own experience to do it? And in light of what Aristotle taught Alexander the Great? Using my heart to know what I would do....and know that it's wrong when it goes against what my heart tells me it is? I don't need to use Jesus here for that....but Jesus is the one who I learned it from....even if I don't go to Church reguarly...in order to know what he said? I do understand what Jesus said....I don't understand people who use Jesus...to accuse others and point fingers and scapegoat and say it's because of him? Or God? If you aren't with us....you're against us!!!! That's NOT what Jesus said!!!!

Then Jesus said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? Then how will you understand any of the parables? The farmer sows the word.…that's what I'm talking about....at face value and not reading any more into it? I think I understand this pretty clearly....along with the rest of the things he said? He also didn't say to use him as an excuse to scapegoat people....for your own personal problems, dysfunction or disorders either......not exactly? But that's yet another story I guess? Just my interpretation, theory and personal opinion? For what it's worth?

The thing that never gets mentioned here...is wisdom? And I wonder WHY??? that is??? ( as I tend to do anyway lol )

Wisdom....from the mind of someone who uses his head? And he's a comedian for crying out loud!!! LOL

https://youtu.be/mUkv_jPgTeg

What Goes Around, Comes Around...As They Say?

Submitted by kellyj on Sun, 11/20/2016 - 17:21

I neglected in my rambling to tie this together at the end here? Back to what I said....coming full circle here?

"my wife's mother.....who became so enraged at her ( 2nd or 3rd Husband....who knows, I can't keep track of them? )...that she is standing there with a loaded gun in her hand....and threatening to kill him....if he does not leave immediately!!! "Leave!!!! NOW!!! I DISMISS YOU!!!!! "...which proceeded with a refusal that went along with this .....that prompted her to actually go get a loaded gun...in order to force him into compliance...literally at the "threat of death"...with a gun put to his head in order to "make him"...or "force him" to leave against his will? "

What goes around comes around....when thing do not get resolved. As my T has said making two points to apply.

1) " The abused...takes a piece of the Abuser with them............."

2) If you want to figure out what is wrong or look to see where the problems are....that exist in your relationship.....look at Attachment Theory...instead of ADHD.

In context to how he was saying this.....ADHD is just the symptom.....but Attachment Theory is the cause? He is not saying that ADHD isn't the source for a lot of the things that go into the problem and that ADHD itself is not a problem all by itself? How I interpret this and what I know he means by this....is in respect to Relationships only....with another person....and how these relationship styles come into play? They are inextricably tied together and you can't have one without the other...putting it that way?

The same as saying....you can't have Jazz....without ...the Blues. But you can have the Blues....without ...Jazz? Speaking in musical terms which is a true statement based on the foundation one is built from....and the foundation itself? In this case.....ADHD is what is built from the foundation...which is Attatchment Theory...and you can Attachemnt Theory....even if there is no ADHD in exactly the same way?

So now...in light of my wifes mother....standing there with a gun in her hand and full of hatred and rage and trying to "dismiss" her husband who failed her or even cheated on her in that moment and where all that rage came from? It wasn't from the fact that her husband cheated on her or failed her....it was from her father failing her...and dismissing her and sending her away and pretending she didn't exist......and that's what she was re-enacting in her mind and transferring all that hatred onto her ( husband)....and all her husbands in turn...who failed her in some way and why she was so full of rage over this unresolved, unspoken about secret....from her fathers own dysfunction...and her mothers infidelity......or......worse.....some family member involved like a brother in law, uncle or any other man that might have been the sperm donor here? It's even likely....her mother actually knew what this all was which makes it even worse? Is she knew that...and never told her own children...yet took that out on ( her own son in this case )..then the past is just being relived in the present....and shame an embarrassment and religious superstition...is coming into play here?

I'm getting from what I know myself here and what I get in context to the whole family is....it's even possible that the mother ( my wife's Grandmother ) was the only one who knew and she kept that a secret...but the entire family actually suspected including her husband which is why this is such a mystery?

What goes around comes around....and "clamming up"...begets....just more "clamming up"....and dismissing what you don't want to see and then just....making it all go away.....like magic?

Not so much. Just because you sweep it under the rug and you can't see it...doesn't mean it goes away or is not there? It will be there..and will get passed along...until someone has the courage to say something? Until that day....it will remains exactly where it is...it will keep reincarnating over and over...until someone says..."The Buck Stops here."

I know one thing that I know...and that's all that I know.....doing nothing, is the worst thing you can possibly do sometimes. Doing nothing is easy.....but it won't just go away even if you put your head in the sand and can't see it anymore? As I see this in their animal characters now with my wife's mothers family.....seemingly....a bunch of Ostriches, who lived in a house of cards with sand for a floor...and they all have there heads "stuck" in the sand...while the Elephant is stomping around, raging and trumpeting at full volume.....and destroying everything in it's path?

"What are we going to do about that damned Elephant? I know...lets send it to Grandmas house...so we won't have to see it...or deal with it anymore! " Brilliant???

And what ever you do....don't give it a gun!!! Sorry....just a bit of humor there for levity.....in context. It really is ridiculous when you see it that way?

Why? The Final Conclusion About Empathy and Awareness

Submitted by kellyj on Mon, 11/21/2016 - 11:48

As I read through this entire story I pieced together in my wife's family ( her mothers side that is )...and thought about the input that was there and the passing on down the line as it was...."the sins of the mother" in this case it brought me back to empathy and compassion and why this appears so counter intuitive? What it really appears like to me from my own experience is....the worse off you have it....the less empathy and compassion a person has and this is a strange phenomenon and one to take note of here? Barring the most extreme case in terms of some mental incapacity or something broken ( literally ) as I recently had a moment of despair when I was the least empathic to my wife in that moment...saying she was damaged goods and no hope for change from my own lack of faith ( or loss of faith in that moment of despair which was proceeded in yet...another instance of my wife...dismissing me and threatening to leave ( again ....this really really is getting old !!! ) That brings me right back to ultimatums again...and why they don't work.

And the reason they don't work is because of this counter intuitive effect when considering empathy and compassion IMHO. What happens to me....every single time my wife has these moments when she just quits and threatens to leave....she really is just giving up and throwing her hands up and not caring anymore. On the receiving end of that....all I see is giving up, giving up on me, giving up on herself..and giving up on our relationship and just throwing everything in the toilet with one foot out the door?

The net effect of this.... even if this is a ploy either unconsciously or consciously....to coerce me or manipulate me into trying harder....has the exact opposite effect and I try less hard and I begin to quit as well and this is what my own personal struggle is all about? Going in a forward steady motion in a forward direction....while at the same time...having someone coming in behind you and telling you what a poor job your doing after all that work to get there. Only seeing what is "wrong" and not "what is right"...is coming from that exact place where...I want what I want..and I'm not getting it? What that means in reality....even if not....in that exact moment in time is.......I haven't got there yet to where I'm going and working so hard to get there....and my wife is basically saying exact that...and reminding me of that every time she opens her mouth and complains. If I were to translate this into what I hear....what that translates to my efforts in the positive is...." You're not there yet!! Why aren't you there. I want you to be there. What's you problem. Why can't you get there. Hurry up and get there. I don't like it because you're not there yet. Hurry up. Faster faster. I can't wait. Time is running out....if you don't hurry up and get there...I'm not going to be happy. Better hurry...but get there sooner....I'm getting impatient...I'm not Happy. Hurry hurry. Rush rush rush....faster faster...you aren't trying. If you were trying...your be there already. I'm not Happy that your not trying and your not there yet....I'm losing my patience. I'm getting angry....and getting upset....go faster...hurry hurry hurry...push push push....shove shove shove....faster faster...hurry up. Are you there yet? Are we there yet? Faster faster...hurry hurry...push push push. How long until we get there? Are we there yet? Why aren't we there yet. I have to pee!!!! I WANT....I NEED.....HURRY HURRY.....FASTER FASTER.....ARE WE THERE YET? WHY AREN'T WE THERE YET. Can't you go faster? Why can't you go faster? I want you to go faster. I want you to hurry. Hurry hurry. Faster faster!!! Are we there yet? Why are we there yet? Can't you go faster? I'm getting angry. I'm getting upset. I'm getting impatient. I can't wait. If you don't hurry and get there....I'm leaving!!!!!!

And that right there...is why ultimatums don't work? If you are the person...who is working steadily along and improving incrementally at a pace that is doable for you ( without killing yourself in the process which is a ridiculous thing to ask of someone....with the obvious answer to that as being NO!!! I'm NOT going to kill myself for you or anyone else you idiot!!! That is just retarded!!! What...are you going to kill yourself for anything or anyone yourself.???? What do you think? NO?? Duh???

And since you are working..and you are putting in the effort...and you are trying....and the improvements are coming on a daily basis one small step at a time......then in the very fact that this is happening....suggests.....YOUR NOT THERE YET!!! Is that NOT OBVIOS!!! So why are you standing there giving play by play comentary, and standing there telling me what I already know....as IF...I don't know that...while bugging the crap out of me at the same time....and asking me....ARE WE THERE YET? And then threatening to jump out of the moving vehicle that is on it's way to the destination and going straight to where you want to go......and thinking that jumping out of the car at 50 miles an hour...that is already headed to your destination...and threatening to leave at the same time.....( once you hit the pavement at 50 miles an hour after bailing out of the car and tumbling and injuring yourself in the process ) which equates to you now standing on the side of the road looking all banged up and ridiculous...while in the mean time....I've got to slam the breaks on....back up...and now have to talk you in to...getting back in the car which take hours of fighting and persuasion....for you just to do that much ( get back in the car ) since you were the one who jumped out prematurely....because you have a melt down and can't wait to get there? If you want to go faster than I'm willing to drive.....then you DRIVE....and I'll just climb in the back seat and take a nap.....HOW about that? In fact.....that's exactly what I'm going to do. I'm going to stop driving...get into the back seat and take a nap....and guilt trying to please you so hard and you can drive? But if you don't want to drive...and you want me doing it....then you need to put up and shut up..and leave the driving to the Captain of the ship....and just DEAL with it.....what ever it is....up your butt!!! If you've got to pee...THEN PISS!!!! or get off the pot.,,,will YOU??? JEESE!!! When I'm driving...I'm the Captain of this ship...if you want to drive....fine.....I'll go in back and take a nap....like I said....but two people can't drive at the same time since only one person can do that effectively so...if you don't like my driving...then get out and stay out...and go darken someone else's door step and rain on their parade!!!

And do you think...that gets my wife.....THERE...any faster? In light of this effect..and me screeching and having to put the brakes on and back up...and then go through this entire process...every time my wife bails out the car door on the freeway..and blames that on me.....getting there....NOW is going to take...that much longer....because I just stopped. ....reversed direction....went backwards ( instead of forwards ) spent that time arguing with you standing there on the side of the freeway......got you back in the car...had to build up to speed again....ALL because you couldn't wait a second more...and then bailed out of the moving car? And for WHAT? Because you aren't there when you want it to be which is faster than I can go?

Every time...my wife....threatens to leave....it is exactly like her jumping out of the car at 50 miles an hour onto the pavement ( or the threat of doing this as in the ultimatum itself ) that is the net result of this...which leaves me completely frustrated, irritated, angry and completely unmotivated and worn out from this process which took all that energy I could have used to continue on in a steady pace that is doable ( I was...before this cataclysmic event that was completely unnecessary and completely uncalled for...which was a complete waste of energy to have to stop....put it in reverse, and then losing all that momentum and having to re-expend all the new energy to get back up to speed to where I was before......if that didn't happen in the first place. Would it have?

Here's the problem with empathy and compassion in this somewhat accurate dramatization. In terms of the destination...and all that it take to get there for the driver of the car...who's been there countless time before in the past....the driver knows what the passenger doesn't. The driver..... in respect to his situation....knows the road...can see the progress as the mile markers pass and the recognizable signs in the landscape...plus the past experience that says how to pace yourself so you don't burn out before you get there...and is doing everything in his power to balance this all out from all the things he has to do to drive, keep his eye on the road, look for hazards and adjust to the changing landscape and road conditions while having someone in the car....who has never been there before...is afraid that she is even going to make it, is having trouble trusting that we will ever get there in the first place....and having a panic attack at the same time because of this? To her....it seems like it's taking forever...and her impatience is building and so is her anxiety over all of these things combined and then hits that overwhelm point where she can't stand it anymore because her bladder is about to burst and there is no rest area in sight? And this winds up to a point where panic sets in...and then she jumps out of the moving vehicle without notice all of a sudden..while in the meantime...up around the corner and only 5 minutes up the road...is a rest area and a bathroom....along with a picnic area to sit and relax for a moment...so you can continue on down the road as before and make it to the final destination in a steady paced reasonable way?

So in direct relationship to me and what happens...this is not so far from the truth...and exactly why we run into problems? My wife has fears...she will even get there in the first place...and lack any trust or optimism....that will even happen? A...on top of it.....her bladder is so full and she is so uncomfortable...from having to pee so bad....that she can't wait another second...and then "bails"...emotionally...since the sky is falling, all is lost...and everything comes together in a catastrophe of sorts...and she loses it and this is exactly what it feels like on the receiving end of it?

Do I feel like working harder and trying more...or less in this case? Does it get us there any faster....or does this slow down the progress? And does this get us to the destination any faster and does this serve the driver of the vehicle to have someone screaming in your ear.....ARE WE THERE YET?????? While trying to drive and concentrate on driving...with someone doing that at the same time? Which ends UP with her threatening to jump out of the moving vehicle every time this happens.....and wondering why this isn't working and what the problem is?

The problem here for either one of us...is a lack of empathy and compassion for the other person in this case? The reality in my case at least ( which I can't assume for all those who come here with ADHD )...is that 9 times out of 10.....I'm actually in this very process and working as hard as I can ( going as fast as I can ) already...and there is no going faster unless I compromise myself and risk crashing and burning...just so to keep my wife happy and make her feel better who's going through this process and wanting us and me to be there....but we are there yet? What my wife is not able to see outside of her own full bladder and the anxiety she is experiencing ...is the fact...there IS NO going faster than I am already....and there is already no room to spare? ( times out of 10...and then 10th time is when I might screw up or forget or lose my attention and take a wrong turn in this metaphor? But...as I'm saying this....I might not have taken that wrong turn...if I had not pushed myself to the limit already...and been in such a hurry which was only from the pressuring that my wife's back seat driving was inputting into this...and her distracting me...literally....not anything else?

So in relationship here....if my wife wasn't in the car with me in this scenario I've painted. And I would have on my own....gone at my own pace....kept things in control and paced myself...would not have felt pressured and the resulting anxiety from that...wouldn't have made that wrong turn..and got there just fine....but maybe not as fast as everyone else ahead of me? And when I arrived...I would not have been overwhelmed...I would have been clam and relaxed...and everything else would have been fine arriving after everyone else...because that is what I am use to?

The problem or thing I am neglecting to consider is.....that for me here on my end, I have already forgotten how it was when I was fist learning how to drive and all the struggles it took me to learn and how hard it was to do that and just keep the car in between the lines and not go off the road? That was the main concern back then? Just keeping the car from going into the on coming lane...and making it home alive!!! lol It's not only about getting to the destination and how long it takes? It's about making it in one piece..and not getting killed in the process plus....not knowing where I'm going...not ever been there before, and not having a very good idea of when that will be? From that perspective...the entire process along with all that uncertainty ..is causing a lot of worry and lot of fear and not very much confidence in myself and the entire trip? I've forgotten all of this....as I am driving down the road and steering with my knees...and eating a sandwich....changing my music...glancing at my map and drinking a drink all at the same time and am completely relaxed because I can do all of that and keep the car right down the middle and maintain everything perfectly and be enjoying the scenery all at the same time.

Meanwhile...my passenger...is in a panic...and her realityS

"But I not where I want to be!!!!!!! And we are not there yet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Tell me something I don't already know??? How is that helping and what part of that don't you get? And who's this we....speak for yourself....I'm the one who's driving and if you don't like it......you know exactly what you can do? Don't you??

But you are getting there...none the less? The only problem here with anything at all....is that you're not there.....NOW. Like "I want you to be" I want I want....I need I need....hurry hurry....I hae to pee!!! Are we there yet!!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm leaving!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The quit....every time. The reason for that is simple....if you are already trying as hard as you can...and you've got nothing left more to give..and you are putting in everything you can into something....what motivates you to keep on going and put....more....not less into it.....is encouragement, acknowledgement of the effort you've put into it already...and some pay off or reward system in place..to give you reason to try or keep trying after all you been through to get there.

But in respect to this weird reverse phenomenon....the harder it was to get there the first time..and the harder you had it to learn....the least likely you are going to be compassionate to someone else in that situation...and less empathy you will have? So in that case.....the worse off you are now.....the more empathy you will have for someone else who is in the same place as you. And the worst off you had it...and the harder it was to get there.....the less empathy and compassion you will have...for someone else now in return which is why this is such a counter intuitive thing..and why it's so hard to give that to another person..is you are not realizing this is happening?

I hear this all the time on this forum...and I see it happening on both sides of the same issue...and both people are thinking or feeling that the other one lacks the ability to be empathic or have compassion because of it...working in both directions...either way? And the conclusion is that the other person lacks the ability to have empathy and immediately thinks they're a Narcissist because that is one of the "symptoms" on the list of symptoms as you go down the list and start checking them off? The problem with that is....is that this collection of symptoms all put together into the same pile and the resulting behavior is that pattern again. It's the pattern that makes up the diagnosis...not the symptom or cherry picking symptoms and saying that person is a Narcissist and drawing from that conclusion which could be....but only if you have that pattern as a result and that pattern remains consistent over a long period of time and never changes? That's the diagnosis right there....not moments or sporadic times when it looks just the same?

And with that...the problem then that is not that one....but within the one I just gave which is more due to the fact that you don't remember how hard it was...and you are considering that into this..and factoring that into your ability to be aware of this...which means....just not being aware of this...and not considering it? It isn't a catch 22....it's only not being able to see it and understand it if that's the case?

What people who don't have ADHD...can't or are not considering...is the effort and the struggle it is...to things that are easy for them? This is the exact same problem...but now in reverse going against...and in favor...of people without ADHD needing to consider this fact and they either don't...or can't...or am not understanding? There is the same lack of empathy and compassion...coming at...a person with ADHD in the same way? And going the other direction now...in just what I am saying and have now noticed and paying attention to....that I am not considering or remembering how hared it was to get where I am today at times....and not factoring that into my ability to compassionate with my wife's at times...just like in the driving scenario I painted even when she is having a melt down panick attack and screaming in my ear....ARE WE THERE YET.....every five minutes because of it?( as it appears to at time....just like a child? )

But because of this relative relationship in having empathy and compassion....a person who is in either situation ...above or below......the other one in terms of being ahead of them...the one who ahead...needs to adjust their compassion to the one who's below and has never been there yet and is trying to ge there?

In all of this...it is the person who is behind...and is not getting that they are....( or not willing to admit that they are and is in denial ) is not the one who needs more empathy and compassion even if you are the one who thinks they do? It's not them who needs to adjust or needs more compassion....It's you...the one with them..... even if they are causing you extreme annoyance ( and screaming ARE WE THERE YET!!! ) and threatening to jump out of the moving vehicle and is in an extreme state of....I've got to pee so bad...I can stand it any longer!!!!! LOL

This is really finally sinking in with me and I have the luxury of having been on both sides of the fence now...to say this with so much assurance. I have not understood this as clearing as I have now ....in respect to another person who is now....behind me in that respect....and not realizing they were and that was the problem?

And in the same way ( but going in reverse )....I'm with a person is is convinced she is not behind in that respect...and is not all that willing to admit it...or say she is? She is not considering that she is not there....but in terms of never being there before...she is right where she is and has no idea where?

Ironically....I was coming from a place thinking I was less well off....and actually not giving myself the credit that was due? And my wife in this strange way it works...was or is still thinking she is better off than she is.....but has not way to measure that because she's never been there before? She is worse off than she thinks...and I was better off than I thought..and this is what was getting thing so confusing at first and why I was getting really irritated with my T there for a while because he kept saying that the burden of proof was on me...not my wife and I wasn't getting that...until I realized this but mostly that changed over night...when coming to realize that I was not the only one with ADHD in the family...and that right there changed everything in my ability to adjust to her...and not expect her to adjust to me..and thinking that this was somehow unfair?

And that's the conclusion here to this long sad tale that kind of has a happy ending of sorts in just knowing what I was doing wrong...so I could stop doing that and do the right thing instead? The right thing...is all of this....is more empathy and compassion is needed Coming From those who don't have ADHD ( not for them in the positive or getting more of in the short term )....in respect to those who do and not expecting that in return...until that person catches up since they are behind you...not ahead of you...in their ability to see it. One you /they see it....it's easy to adjust but a person in denial or is not there yet...is not going to understand this...and so that expectation...and the burden of proof lies on the person who's ahead...not the one who is behind...as much as you may not like it...or find yourself in this predicament....it's just the way it is. In rhw essence to this analogy.....YOU won't get what you want....until they catch up and what that is....is empathy and compassion for yourself and that can't happen....until they catch up to you? If you are moving way too fast and are always ahead of them.....then you need to slow down and wait...and allow them to catch up or they never will. No guarantees' either...but one thing for sure that will never happen...is if you don't slow down and wait for them to catch up to you...and you are just running that far ahead of them....then they never will catch up and that will never happen and that will be a guarantee for sure 100%. So given the only choice you have...and since the burden of proof is on you to do so in that in this case...... even without any guarantees that they will...you've got one of two choices to make here. Stay...or ....leave....but if you stay.....then you only have one option available and this is it...which makes it easy to understand? You HAVE to lead.....there is no other choice and be more compassionate and be more empathy on top of it....included with nothing in return until they catch up to you? That's it right there.....putting this into clearer perspective, hopefully?

You can bail out of the car going 50 mph on the freeway...or you can get with the program...and understand why this is but it is what it is....and until they change....you're the one who has too or it will never work. End of story...and I'm stick'in too it!!! lol Read and weep....or do something about it....the Buck Stops Here as they say and if they aren't saying it....I am!!! LOL

Fear of the Future......or is it Something Else?

Submitted by kellyj on Tue, 11/22/2016 - 12:28

The list of terms here:

Challenging

Strong Willed

Getting Needs Met ( getting what you need )

Fear

Trepidation

Anticipation

Throwing down the Gaunlet

Cheating...and what is "fair?"z

First Blood

Competition

Respect

Honor

Integrity

I had a thought here, in a way to communicate something that is not easy to communicate. As Zapp pointed out....she Loves a challenge and to a certain degree.....so do I. But an honest challenge done in a forth right way ( openly ) in terms of competition...there is something to be considered here? What is fair and what is not fair....in a sporting event or competition? This is the criteria set down by the standards of "good sportspersonship". But those who don't play by the rules of engagement....are called upon when a "foul" as been committed and when that happens...."Play" is temporarily halted or stopped. And when a person stoops so low...as to circumvent the rules and go around them in a cowardly way.....we say they cheated...since they are attempting to circumvent the "ref"...and do it in an underhanded and surreptitious way. But one might argue....that this is not always the case in every matter or in all situations...and I can think of one example I am familiar with....that is the "exception to the rule".

Waterpolo...is one of the "dirtiest" games in sport and they say...it is even more physically exerting than Soccer which IMHO...it is. My experience with this, and even being the Captain of my Waterpolo team in high school and then playing at the Collegiate level....is pretty much in agreement with this but here is the reason why?

Unlike any other sport you can think of......water itself and all the splashing and turbulence....creates a perfect shield to hide any "fouls" that are committed under water since the reg who is standing on deck...cannot see what goes on underwater in order to blow a foul and stop play. This creates a situation where "cheating" can be done at will...anytime a player chooses and there is no way to stop play or intervene when someone is taking "unfair advantage" . What they say....the best way to make a honest person dishonest....is give them the opportunity ( which is why they have "entrapment" laws for law enforcement because if the "thought" of committing a crime was not there...and "the law enforcers" put bait out to snare someone in a moment of weakness which is really just a "test" of honesty....not that this person would have done (what ever) otherwise.....this is considered....."unfair" too. But this is many in order to protect the honest or a person who has weakness...by eliminating temptation from the mix.....in order to separate the "wheat from the chaff"......so to speak?

But at the end of the day with Waterpolo....there is an undisclosed "rule book" that pre-empts the standard practice that you learn that is not "written in any book of rules"...and that is what applies in every case.....as "accepted practice"....none the less.

The rules say you aren't suppose to grab another player by his suit and pull him under just as the ball is coming towards them in the air...so you as the opponent can intercept the pass...but this is exactly what you do sometimes in order to win. You are suppose to take you feet...and grab another player with them and pinch them around their leg...to hold them back and prevent them from moving forward in a race for the ball.....but sometimes you do this....in order to win. And you aren't suppose to elbow another player in the mouth..to stun him momentarily..and to provoke him into making a mistake and get him off his game....but sometimes you do this to either....teach him that if he fouls you....your's will be coming....and/or......to rile him...and upset him...and distract him by diversion so he will screw up and lose sight of the goal ( literally ) and focus on getting even....which is exactly why you do this. Any button...you can "push"...and do so "with intention"...to take advantage of the opportunity...is considered in Waterpolo......"fair game"....but there is no ref there who is going to bail you out.....and this is just plain old "hand to hand combat"....and no rules apply anymore. As long as you can get away with it.....and the ref can't see it....."alls fair in Love and War".....as they say and everyone in the pool at the time...is on the same page? It can be brutal...and there is nothing they can do to stop it and the temptation here or the reason why it evolved into this style of "free for all"....is because there is no way to enforce it, since it all happens underwater and "out of sight" of the referee.

But in Waterpolo......everyone knows this and knows the rules or engagement and everyone is on a level playing field ( or pool ) and these are the unspoken rules. In the case of Waterpolo....cheating is the name of the game but everyone "cheats" and everyone knows the score. In essence to Waterpolo......you are "on your own"......."no holds barred".....as long as you don't get "caught" and that is accepted practice by everyone...and everyone is on board with this? Either you are Okay with this....or you don't play the game...period!!

So in a hypothetical situation....you've got a person who reads the rule book, learns all the skills you need to learn about Waterpolo...and they decide it's time to jump in the water and play the game. And suddenly....in a "wake up" moment when that person is getting his suit pulled off, his legs scratched, elbows in the face and is being pulled under water....which results in him screaming "foul" ..."foul' to the ref since he's stopped playing the game thinking...."that's cheating!!!"....while meanwhile....his opponent just swam the ball into the target zone and put the ball right into the net and scored a win for the team? And now the coach is screaming at him for not fouling him back...to prevent him from scoring and losing the game for the entire team? And his teams mates are throwing insults at him and calling him a big "Sissy Mary"....and to "go home to mama"...in disgust because he didn't understand the way the game is played...because it doesn't tell you these things..."in the rule book".In reality and in my own experiencing this myself ....but with me not saying anything and "realizing" I wasn't in Kansas anymore......there is a "right of passage" that occurs when you understand the "challenge" that you did not for see beforehand.

And the best way to describe this....is "throwing down the gantlet"....or just....."throwing down". You see this in Hokey all the time...when two players literally "thrown down" by ripping their gloves and throwing their stick to the ground off....which means they are coming after you and it's time to step up and fight and the whole thing becomes a free for all and the ice rink looks like a "yard sale"....speaking in the lingo. That's a little different in that...play definitely "stops"...and penalties are levied by the refs and everyone can see this happening?

In water polo....not so much. The second you enter the water.....the gantlet has already been thrown down and you either get with the program...or you don't play the game? It's why it's the roughest and dirtiest game that exist in sport in my opinion and those who are aware of this have confirmed it because it. Anyone who's play....knows the score and knows what I'm talking about. Brutality and intimidation reigns supreme and winner....takes all. That's the name of the game and the water itself...is the conduit...to mask this...so no one watching (including the ref ) ever sees this happening. The better you are at "cheating" in this case....the better and more valuable you are to your team and as a player? And again...if this is not what you signed up for in the beginning...you have one of two choices and you know what those are? Don't let the door...hit you in the ass on your way out the door....as they say?

So in terms of Waterpolo...you many wonder....why? LOL Why play such a brutal game when everyone cheats and that seems unfair? Because of the challenge...but the challenge is done in a forth right manner and everyone knows the score in this case. It's still a level playing field...and there is nothing underhanded as long as you understand the "unspoken rules". And even within the "unspoken rules here".....there still is "honor amongst thieves"...and that code of honor...is the one that is used...in determining where those boundary lines are drawn....which comes right down to "respect". "Respect" and "honor"..... is the Golden rule of Water polo....and things that fall outside of "respect" are still considered unacceptable and cowardly as "looked down upon" and treated with disdain.

The same as applies to the military and in War in real life. Terrorists...operate outside these principles....which is why terrorists are considered "scum bags" and no honor what so ever. Lower than "pond scum"....at the "bottom of the barrel?" When the agenda falls outside of the rules of engagement, and the strategies by design.are "not engage" but go behind the back in a cowardly way...then there is "no honor" or "respect" given or adhered too.... in this kind of fighting or battle. Which is why....this kind of strategie.... is just down right cowardly and disrespectful on all level.... and shows a complete lack of courage, and lack of all integrity and character. These people...forfiet and are disqualified imediately...from any respect or consideration what so ever and that is the reason that I feel is the difference in what I am trying to describe? There is no honor or respect given to terrorists..... in which, in this kind of cheating...is "lower than pond scum" from a weak, powerless person...who compensates by being a "coward" instead?

In this way of seeing things or approaching this....in the terms used within this code.....these are the guidelines set down ...as "standard practice" and the boundaries within these definitions I just gave. Once you enter the "ring" ( or the circle...and the gauntlet is thrown down ).....these are the rules of engagement...and how they are applied and the thinking that goes along with them...to defined the parameters being used and the principles to follow or apply.

But know.....putting all of this into context...when bring up this topic of the future and fear? I can relate something else to consider here and what I have come to recognize when as I am applying here to my wife's mother...and even my wife since there are a number of violations being made...on their part in this mix.

Going back to the hypothetical scenario of the Waterpolo player who didn't understand this code....or the "rules of engagement" and yelling "foul" and then having his teams mates and coach...get angry at him for losing the game? In respect to this scenario.....this person is a "victim" in this case...and is behaving like one. It is why his team mates "dishonored" him and why he was "reprimanded" for doing this because his actions...cost them the game. This is consider standard practice defined by this code itself and why "ignorance of the law" ( or code )...is no excuse. Time to Cowboy up....as they say or ....."go home to mama".....either way? Those are the rules. In a sense......I can even say....."I didn't make the rules here....I just play by the them.... and play within the "code" which is fair and honest statement in terms of applying this strategy? I will go even further in saying....there is no dishonor and no disrespect.....when following the code in respect to Water polo that is....putting this back into that context again?

Okay then. If I can put this into a completely different context now.....I can explain where these "principles" ( or code of honor ) and "strategies" apply here to the story of my wife's mother, victim mentality, terrorism. I can even relate this to my father in the same way as I said ....he did not fit into the same category what so ever in comparison to my wife's mother...even if he was a full blown Narc...and the abuse...that I experienced with him and showing the difference ...speaking now.....in these terms. And in full respect to how my father operated as the foundation of anything he did....was to operate under this "code of honor" at all times....which he did consistently......and displayed the same honor, integrity, and respect....which he earned from adhering to these rules even though as I am saying this......"mal adapted" or perverted.....when speaking about being a father and a husband...and trying to apply that to his family which is why this was still considered abuse? This was my fathers critical error in thinking and judgment....when trying to apply what works in business and on the playing field....to his family and wondering why this doesn't work? It doesn't work...because this cannot be applied and yet...he did. Erroneously....but none the less? That was a mistake on his part.....but he still followed the code....and was not a "terrorist" as I am applying this to the code itself? In all things nearly all the time.....my father....earned respect in all other areas of his life....because this is the code he lived by and the same one he passed onto to me in order to apply it the same way. Respect...is the operant word here...and integrity and honor are the net results.

So in these same terms being used here as I am making this comparison.....my wife's mother was a victim of circumstance...and there is no questioning this which was not her fault. But in the perversion of this within the way she became...and her operating system that she enjoined.....had no honor, or respect for anyone...and she was a cheater and a terrorist...by any standards applied.

As said within the code itself......Lower than pond scum.....with no respect or honor deserved or earned. These terms and judgments that I apply to her in the way....come from the same code of honor....or as the Police said to me in respect to the same code of honor being applied to the woman who swindled me ( the Borderline disordered woman )...by submitting a false report ( or by bearing false witness ) and operating more like a "tattle tale" but done so for her own agenda which was outside of anything I did...in order to reap the benefits of this underhanded way...which is all she cared about. And in the same way.....a "tattle tale" show no honor or deserves any respect in terms of doing this as a way to validate themselves....for their own personal agenda which is not the case with this woman in question...since she "lied" in order to achieve her goal. And under the code...and as said specifically by the Police ( several officers using the same defintion ) "pieces of shit"......or ...."lower than pond scum"....for violators of the code in the same way? Cowards, victim and thieves....all fall under this form of cheating but specifically....ones who operate under these criteria...specifically? In other words.....a thief....may or may not be.....a "piece of shit".....if they did not violate the code....even if they broke the law....speaking in those terms? They may still be a thief....but a thief with honor......and that's the defining difference in differentiating this...under the code? Same as a Water polo player....who may be cheating by defined by the rule book....but done in way that is accepted and honorable...which still qualifies for respect...speaking within these terms and applying it that way? The key component here....is "a level playing field" and just doing it better than the competition? Who doesn't Love...a good "jewelry heist caper" movie...where the thieves are just smarter than everyone...and that's how they get away with it? That can be seen completely different...than a terrorist in comparison......who no one likes or respects.....even if the jewelry thief....is still a crook? There is an inherent ability we have to make this distinction...and IMHO......this code of honor is the way in making this determination? Does the jewelry thief...deserve to go to jail for committing his crime? Of course. But we don't defile him and dishonor him and see him as a "piece of shit" or "lower than pond scum"....in exactly the same way because of the code and the principles behind these two strategies and the way the operate under them?

So now....relating this to my wife's mother again...and still going along with this train of thought continuing with my previous comments made in this thread? Keeping with the same terms her to apply....her mother did not operate within the code. She operated like a terrorist...which falls outside of anything acceptable by any practice or any standard you can apply to this analogy? The way she learned to get her needs met....was not within the realm of anything more...than the "peices of shit"...or the "pond scum"....in the same comparison. She had no integrity. She had no honor. She had no respect for anyone...and earned none of those things...but demanded them anyway. She was a tattle tale..of untold proportions..and used that as her weapon...in order to shield herself from any retaliation or harm to her personally. The same terms would apply to her methods...in exactly the same way.

"Go home to mama" "Poor sport"....."disrespectful" and without a shred of integrity. The lowest..and most primitive form of violation...that one could stoop too and you can't get any lower...than that? Just like a terrorist. "Bottom feeder"...."bottom of the barrel"......"lower than pond scum"...all apply because the code is not being honored here....even amongst thieves. And the reason for this of course...stems from being a victim..and remaining that way....and her operating system that she "chose" to use....."by choice and with intention" ....was "dishonorable" and deserved no respect what so ever.

The bottom line here for anyone reading this and with now stepping out of the ring...and back into reality...where this code no longer applies. Saying....im the same way I said about my father...who misapplied the "code" and tried to apply that to his family in the way to operate under even if honorable and respectful under the code in itself......the code didn't apply...and therefore...why this didn't work for him and why this was an abusive form ( or perversion of the code ) and a violation in itself?

But for my wifes mother in the same vein....she was just a walking "violation and offender"....all the time where ever she went...and her agenda...her operating system..and the way she got her needs met...was despicable, underhanded with no redeeming quantities what so ever? You could put this yet another way if you were to apply here in the same way. She was the lowest...of the Lows...and a bottom feeder...in how and what she was feeding on and it doesn't get any lower than that. Speaking in those terms.

And within the method itself...and as the key component as means to describe her? Challenging. It's all she new how to do with no skills what so ever...to do anything but that? The premise..and the consequential goals of her actions ( or personal agenda )....were to "challenge everyone"....in defiance and as a means to get what she wanted at all times...and make sure that she did?

Unfortunately....my wife of course....picked up some of these methods....even if she is not like her mother in any way shape or form....but sadly, she did learn the methods...and is still using them as her means to get her needs met sometimes....by using her mother as the example...and not understanding the error in her ways and wondering why....if you go around challenging people all the time.....they will "thrown down the gantlet" if you are going to play that game and step into the ring you better expect what you get....or "go home to mama"..and she still can't understand why this isn't working...or why people treat her the way they do sometimes including me? This is where when I first responded to this "first blood" as a reaction.....I reacted in the same way I always do...in context to Waterpolo and the code in the same way? Nice shoot'in solier....but two can play at that game? If you want to challenge me....then I'm up for the challenge and I will win...and you will lose....winner takes all? I may die trying....but with that goal in mind....win, lose or draw.....if you step in the ring with me.....I'm going to do everything my power to beat you..and beat you in no uncertain terms if the goal is winning.....and the rules of engagement is a "fee for all" in the same vein? So in the very essence of this.....if "cheating is the game"...then I know how to win and I appy it the same way as in Water polo and using the exact same criteria to follow.

And that criteria....ALWAYS is defined...without any rule book to reference.....is the same code of honor and respect...in exactly the same way? Without any other means available....the code is the one you use by default when cheating is the name of the game? But in disrespect to terrorist...or my wives mother.....there is no code of honor or respect..and why this goes beyond foul...to the bottom of the barrel as the strategy she adopted and why even the Police have a category for law breakers as defined as "piece of shit". Not even human....primitive....like animals.

This is why it is so important in my mind.....not to engage or step into the ring when confronted with this kind of thing. You are only stooping to their level..and disrespecting yourself because of it. To engage in such underhanded and disgraceful tactics..and enjoin them yourself....you are just stooping a new low...and betraying yourself in the process?

When you are dealing with a mentality...who is willing to pull out a gun to get what they want ( as a way to cheat and take unfair advantage ) which in disrespect which is warranted under the code again.....this is a form of "stooping" lower than you and a willingness to do so...which it shows itself by these actions and if you follow their lead...and if you are following them to the bottom of the barrel with them....then you are no better than they are...which is something to consider?

And to make sure I say this after all said and done here....this is not a judgment...when speaking in these terms. I see my wifes mother...and I see the horrible thing that happened to her as a child. But I also see the adult...who is grown up...and passing this along to her child and leading by example which is even more foul...and more low....than being a bottom feeder in that case. That just went one step below....pond scum....to do that in this case...and my wife's mother had a lifetime to change and adopt a new strategy....which was a choice....and nothing else. She chose to do this....as a means to get what she wanted out of life...and she got everything she asked for.....no respect, no honor and no Love what so ever.

Be careful what you ask for....you may just get it? This is what I am shining a huge spot light on when my wife starts into this with me....instead of stepping into the ring....I am exposing her to the truth and I can tell you...she doesn't like it....but that's kind of tough tittles as they say? I am picking and choosing my battles here....but staying outside of the circle and outside of the ring with a big spot light and just shining it on my wife.....is a tricky tap dance and a trickier even still....when you have to reap the consequences but here's the best part of this the the silver lining her in how this seems to work. My T told me to "give her what she wants" and that was good advise speaking to a person who never got what they wanted at the hands of a terrorist. But in terms of my wife...who is not a terrorist...she defaults sometimes to these methods...but only in part.,....because to play the game she learned from the pond scum as a means to teach here how to be......I have to forgive my wife for what was not her fault...and teach her another way.....and I am using this same code of honor to do this....even if I have to engage her sometimes but......I have found...that shining a light on this...and putting her in the spot light...and then showing mercy and compassion to her and then giving her what she wants at the same time....has been an effective way to shut her down...teach her a lesson...and still give her what she wants at the same time?

That means....I am meeting her head on as an equal...not a child...and instead of speaking down to her.,....I'm speaking to her as a team mate...the same as the team mates did ...( and I did with them ) in the game of Water polo where respect, honor and integrity are the key ingredients. There is no rule book or way to describe this any other way...but when standard practice no longer applies ( along with the law or rules to follow or it is being violated ) then the code of honor is used by default...and that is also teaching someone something...without being their parent...but on a level playing field as an equal...when conflict arises?

To be clear.....not stepping into the ring is what you are doing and by not stepping into the ring...there can be no competition...but by applying the code...and using it outside of the ring ( still ) you are not being a door mat...and they are not getting away with it. You've just got their number...and when your number is called ( and challenged )....you know what to do and how to do it...in that case?

I think fear of the future...is just not knowing how and fear of engagement...and know how to apply it if dealing with a victim...who is not playing by the rules? I'm a stand up guy ...when my number is called.....even if I am a passive person...and almost never draw first blood. Knowing how to do it....is what eliminates the fear and being able to be successful....at the Art of War. The last thing you do...in the Art of War when all else fails....is to attack aggressively...which is just reacting and not using your head?

In sport and even in competition...."Alls fair in Love and War"....is a false statement. Don't believe it because that is a lie.

The art of War....Wrapping the victim it their own actions....

Submitted by c ur self on Tue, 11/22/2016 - 21:26

(I think fear of the future...is just not knowing how and fear of engagement...and know how to apply it if dealing with a victim...who is not playing by the rules?)

There are no rules for most victims; they create rules on the fly to enhance their ability to use someone else (be the victim) for any perceived benefit to themselves...When dealing w/ victims we must be wise enough to recognize their attempt and walk away...About this time is when you will hear the foul cry!!! LOL

To master our own behaviors...(the reality of what we know by experience is capable of; and likely too; manifest in normal communication attempts) so as to be a full length mirror, that has a reflection so penetrating, that is reflects back on to the victim...physically, emotionally, and psychologically.

Depending on the depth of denial present...This mastering of self-control in these situations may just be eye to eye contact...(a look)....It may take three words...(no thank you, or It's your choice)...But in my experience it very rarely takes more than a sentence....

If we master ourselves properly we will most always leave the victim w/ their victim hood in their own laps....(Death, Life and Growth)

No Thank You .... It's Your Choice... My New Mantra

Submitted by DependentOrigination on Tue, 11/22/2016 - 21:58

I asked my husband (who was working, and dealing with an interpersonal relationship issue that was threatening his removal from his Search and Rescue team - Crisis 952 of what FOR SURE will be 1200 crises this year alone) what happened to the weekend together that we had planned. I expressed my disappointment (very gently) because I had been very kind and supportive the last couple of weeks, but it still didn't turn into dedicated time with me. Two sentences. Calmly, without the usual emotional furor that would accompany our conflicts. He became very agitated and started getting angry at me. I calmly handed his anger back to him, and explained to him that he was getting angry at me because he was trying to avoid his guilt and discomfort. He became even more agitated and started walking around and threw things in his bag and started talking about going to his son's house because I was just being completely unreasonable. I said fine, go to your sons house. But remember that you are the one who left.

He sat back down. In about 2.5 seconds.

No thank you. Its your choice. Golden.

Threats won't work anymore. Leave. I am going to go have fun. The last two Saturdays, instead of waiting around for him to make plans with me, I went to a ballroom dancing competition with a friend and dinner with another friend. Magical. Happy. And we are both okay with it.

Good For You Zapp

Submitted by kellyj on Sat, 11/19/2016 - 12:10

You know ( as a fellow "fixer"...who always wants to know?? lol ) When my first wife ran off with another guy ( thankfully lol )...we did see a marriage councilor one time together ( before I knew about the other guy ) and his advise was to separate for a while...with the intention of staying together and this seemed like really bad advise at first, thinking "well that's just one step closer to where I don't want to be. At the time? In that situation...the advise was moot anyway....but seeing this now and even within what you said.....I do understand why that was actually good advise..in that separation physically ( actually forces you ) to separate you own thoughts so you can see things more clearly once things get so tangled up and enmeshed it's impossible to see anything?

But as you were saying this...I was going..."yep....good for you"......it allows you to see things where before you could not much easier when you can step out of the bad dynamic...and then step back in with your "mind right" so to speak?

And mentioning being "enmeshed" and all tangle up.....this is probably the best way to describe the same effect and the same problem that I see my wife struggling with in terms of her mother and that dynamic that is so hard to see? That one....in that respect ( and that victim thing again )...is really just between you and you in that case...and doesn't involve another person ( especially when that other person is no longer there....or dead? )

This was why therapy was so helpful for me since the relationship with my father for example....had ended a long time before I actually went about doing this? You can't go back and talk to them later or say you are sorry or for them to acknowledge there part? There can be no reconciliation or no resolution in that case....or so you think? As I thought too at the time?

In reality......you can do this and it is possible...because forgiveness comes from the heart and whether or not the person is alive or dead....that doesn't matter in terms of you...and the benefits you get from going thought the process?

Another little bit of info or trivia....( not so trivial )....which speaks to the fact that resolution in terms of any one else...come from within you first? You can't make anyone do this or do anything to make them change. And in terms of leading and leading by example.....if you change ( which does not require the other person to even be present...as was with my father for example long after the fact )...it doesn't matter what they know or even that they know.....what matters is what you know...and then what you do about it?

If you're going to fix anything.....you've got to know how first? And in order to do that ( like following the money trail? ) following the "logic" trail ( instead of the emotion trail perhaps? ) to the "truth"...and using your heart to do it? Just like Aristotle said? There is no arguing with universal "truths" is there? Well you can but.....that would make no sense what so ever?? LOL

From one fixer ( or problem solver ) to another....high five on that one!!! ;)

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