Submitted by VaPA on 11/18/2016.
How is it possible to be married to an unreliable adhd spouse?
If he is unreliable, how can I have long lasting satisfying marriage?
If I am adjusting to meet all his adhd needs, what happens to my needs? Who am I supposed to rely on?
After reading through many posts, it seems like the advice is ... accept it and deal with it your entire life, or don't and get a divorce.
The advice says to stop having expectations... but how can i not have any expectations of my husband? How can I do that? He certainly has them for me that I have to meet.
Who is looking out for me? who is going to give me the support i need?
Please help :(
HI VaPA....Just got to ask ourselves the right question....
Submitted by c ur self on
In my life, I have to answer all the questions you are asking with this one Question.....Am I willing to accept the product (the fruit of our marriage) that is daily being produced by being married to my spouse??
My answer is Yes....today...One day at a time!
Some of the posts you might have read about acceptance, could have been mine....
Because before I came to the point of acceptance, I was asking all the same questions you were asking, because I had a view of what marriage should be like....Sharing, loving, dependability...You know the list....
But, after quite a few years of arguments, fighting and talking to a brick wall of denial....I said SELF...STOP!!! It's self inflicted emotional suicide to want what isn't available!!! GOT IT SELF!!! DO YOU GET IT SELF???? Finally one day, finally, I got it.....
So are you willing to stay and accept the product, tend to yourself, love yourself, and count on yourself? Set boundaries to protect your rights? No matter what that takes?...
That's the easy part, the hard part is to still love your spouse, and harbor no resentment for what they can't change....I don't mean abuse and Sin against you....I mean high levels of just plain ole adhd and the words and actions it produces in them?? That you will experience and have to quietly walk away from and not engage on a daily bases at times??
C
"Inflicted Self Suicide"......Perfect!!!!!
Submitted by kellyj on
C,
That is the best term or phrase that anyone has come up with so far!!!! It's perfect!!! Thanks for that one.....I'm going to remember that. And yes...you are so right...I just haven't put that into words so well before.
For the moment....I'm treating myself as a non-ADHD spouse here and giving myself some credit where credit is due. This is only in the area of anger and reacting for the moment. My own that is? I might even throw being highly emotionally volatile and unstable in there too since I have more or less......leveled out and have learned to maintain my composure as long as I follow your advise which I am doing most of the time? And being that I do have ADHD myself....I am not for a minute, discounting the effect I have on my wife in the same way that any of you have indicated that is problematic for my wife as well except....just this aspect of what you mentioned here as far as me....being argumentative, correcting, reactive, highly emotional, demanding or pushy in respect to myself. And for the most part....compliant but not compliant in a way that I necessarily want to be but.....it's better than the alternative ie: Inflicted Self Suicide....which is such a great way to look at this? Honestly...it is as close to the truth or what is really happening more often than not? It's this part of it at least....that was the worst aspect for me? Stopping that....has made everything that much easier for me to deal with and yes.....I am on my own in that department. I get little to no support from my wife many times but only when I need it on my terms and that is another thing to apply to this. On my terms...not hers.
When I stop and think about this more closely.....I am catering to my wife's emotional state at all times and being her "rock"...so to speak and that is what she needs from me? Is this one sided? Absolutely? Is this fair? Not at all. Does this get on my nerves and make me resentful? It can and has but here's the deal? What are my choices here? It does feel like I am being held hostage sometimes but....as my wife will clearly let me know....every detail, at every moment....any time I do anything that sets her off or annoys her...and then some ( external locus of control )...she has pretty much...put that out there any time she feels the need so often and so many times ( and continues since she cannot help it in respect to a "compulsion" to do so which my T has reminded me...that's what it is ....and I hate that VERY MUCH!!! LOL )......I have found in a sense.....that I can live with what I HATE more than anything....by learning not to Hate it so much and changing my relationship to it and what you described is a perfect way to put this into context better?
The jist here is this. I HATE......the fact, that my wife is a compulsive "director" as such? At home....there is no other way to describe this but appearing like nagging but actually...I have found it is not. She does and can "nag"...but this compulsive "directing" is not nagging. It's an issue she has....and I see it as such? I see it for what it is and I have choices here too? I can pick and choose when I say anything...and at home....I let it go and "give her what she wants" as my T suggested. It took me a while to figure out exactly what he meant by that...but in terms of my wife's..."issues"....I see them as such and these are where she is needing "control" measures for herself...that involve me if you put it that way? In that...she has these "issues"....and in that...they are strategies she learned to control herself by controlling her environment ( the external locus of control ) ...I am just part of her environment and I am just a "pawn" or "patsy" so to speak....in her ability to do so? This may sound horrible but in respect to her "compulsion".......he "compulsion" doesn't know the difference...putting it that way? And I see this for what it is? That simplifies this much more easily?
But that doesn't mean I don't hate it sometimes because it is relentless and really "poor" behavior on her part but it does serve and important "need" for her ...even if I don't think it's appropriate which I don't and I do hate this aspect of it? At home.....I can let this slide and see it that way but not in public....this is where I draw the line or have boundaries that I have to enforce and my wife is not given any say in the matter and when I say something? In essence.....I decide when I will allow this and I have my boundaries there and this is where I will change my position with her and take on a more "put up...or shut up" attitude with her and if she doesn't like it......"tough"? I have to be allowed to control this when needed and in pubic or around others...she is now intruding on my ability to maintain a proper relationship with other people since she is now effecting me..and them at the same time which is not only embarrassing to me personally...but embarrassing for them as well? This is where I feel I have to speak up...for others sake as well as mine and there is no compromising my position in these instances?
So in respect to this "other people" boundary....I am for a moment only.....taking on the parental role and becoming that person with her...but only in that specific moment...when I need to and no other time? This is where that......"more than ONE right thing" comes into play? You might even say I am managing my emotions and emotional stability in public or around friends...by looking out for mine and there well being both at the same time which they appreciate as well? No one wants to her this crap ...or be around a bossy , directing person in that respect? I hate it. They hate it. Everyone hates this and so therefore.....there is only one person left here that is doing what others hate including me and that's when I say something whether my wife likes it or not? But here's the deal and point I wanted to make? I am gaining others support here when that happens? When I time this right..and do it without over reacting myself....am I getting more or less....and unanimous or overwhelming response from others ( even if they are not even aware of what I am aware of ) and they second it or third it for me...right then in the moment in there own way which is only confirming what I am saying and validating me at the same time? And this leaves my wife between a rock and hard place and she is left to deal with it on her own? And because of her own social anxiety which is something I do not suffer from....she is effectively "out of her element"...and I am "in mine"...so to speak? I realize more often than not....that no one has dealt with my wife in her past in respect to just throwing their hands up and giving in to her ( or like with her own family ) ..not knowing how to deal with this...and just sweeping it under the rug and allowing her to do it? She never learned she had to mind her "P's" and "Q's" ( her quarts and pints )...when she got too "drunk" on her emotions..and lost her composure....putting it that way? This is where her "boorish" behavior....was just "allowed" even in social settings..and she just ran "rough shod" over everyone...in order to continue on? But in respect to her need for her own inner control...and doing it this way ( external locus of control )....she is controlling herself....by controlling others...and trying to fit others to her...instead of them? And that becomes a problem in terms of my responsibility here?
When we are at home alone ...just the two of us.....I only have responsibility to myself and no one else? In public however...I have a responsibility to more than just myself...and allowing what I allow at home....takes on a different "type" or responsibility here? And as far as "normally accepted practice"....and "manner and etiquette".....this applies to everyone..and everyone is on the same page including me? There is an expectation here to comply...and that changes the dynamic and the responsibility I have to myself and to others at the same time and my wife gets no choice in these matters and I expect..and demand she comply in no uncertain terms? I don't have to be harsh or critical and defensive in these moments which I am not....but diplomatically speaking....I don't have to allow it either and this is when "self inflicted suicide" is not happening but only then?
So in respect to this in public aspect.....my wife is the one committing suicide not me? I'm in my element..and she is not? She is odd man out here and I am staying on the side with everyone else which in respect to why I brought this up....I'm like a non-ADHD person in this case and effectively ( and successfully ) I am one? I am successfully managing all my emotions and behaviors and maintaining decorum to a degree that extends to others in a completely acceptable way? And then some. My manners and respect for others socially has not a lot to be desired in respect to me in any and "social settings" which is something I learned and developed through a great deal of exposure throughout my lifetime and over a very long period of time with lots of practice? And in respect to me as a child....as was not allowed to run "rough shod" over anyone...and that is even more to the point here? I was not allowed...to control myself through my environment..and if I did...I suffered the consequences? I learned how....not to do this....and that is directly to what I wanted to say here?
I learned how to do this...and not effect others and my wife has not? But it is not her...who didn't learn or who needs "learn'in"....it's her emotions and her ( compulsions ) that never learned? And in disrespect to her own mother and family....they just stuck their heads in the sand...and let her get away with it which was not necessarily my wife's fault putting it that way? She has and had...."issues"...and no one gave a damn and just took the easy way out? She was that "Elephant"...in the room...who was storming around and knocking into everyone...and they all just looked away and let her "knock into them" because they were too afraid of dealing with an irate Elephant? So to speak? LOL
But as much...as I HATE....this behavior at all times......what I HATE more....is "self inflicted suicide" and at home and not in public.....the same rules and conditions exist anymore? This running rough shod over people is just part of her "compulsion"..and she is doing it to gain control of herself....but in a maladaptive way?
And I do have a choice..and I can pick and choose my battles...and I can also see this for exactly what it is? I do get support at appropriate times so to speak...and when at home with none of that available....I "give her what she wants". And by giving her what she wants......I do get something in that respect? I am not committing "self inflicted suicide" which I HATE more....that giving her what she feels she needs even though maladaptive and compromising to what I am calling "boorish looking" behavior and feeling the disrespect from it as well which is normal for me...or anyone....in exactly the same situation?
Something that NON said recently really hit the mark for me in all of this which...even though I have ADHD myself...and some of my symptoms still come into play here? I have successfully learned to manage many of my symptoms...to the point they are within the realm of what would be considered "normal range" or mostly acceptable? Not just by my standards but others standards more importantly? All that social anxiety and fear of shame and embarrassment that I did have when I was younger....I turned around and turned it on myself...in order to do something about it? And when I did learn to do something about it.....the fear and anxiety I was experienced...was no longer there anymore and I felt confident enough in my ability to do this...the the problems and issues just went away and disappeared? So effectively speaking.....to anyone else in most any case imaginable....would never know I have ADHD....since I am no longer trying to "hide" it...so others won't see it.....I am managing it successfully....so other don't see it? One come from insecurity and fear along with social anxiety....the other does not...and only comes with self confidence instead? See how that works?
The more self confidence you have ( in your abilities as well )...the less anxiety, fear and "phobias" arise? Along with more ability to extend yourself..and this just comes to be a self filling prophecy in itself but all in good ways?
So in respect to committing "self inflicted suicide" in exactly the way you are describing it? I HATE the behavior....but I HATE the experience or repercussions..of trying to do battle with my wife's compulsions?
Separating this all out here? There is my wife...the person...who has issues, compulsions, and behaviors that I HATE. I don't HATE my wife....I HATE how it effects me? And I also HATE...anytime I even mention it...in an effort to make her STOP....which is effectively committing "self inflicted suicide" which I HATE even more?
So what do I HATE...the most here? My wife's behaviors....or committing self inflicted suicide? The answer: "SELF INFLICTED SUICIDE". BINGO!!! And now it becomes a choice? I am confident in my ability to STOP myself...since my wife can't do this because it's the compulsions she can't stop? Her compulsions are not my problem...but they cause a problem for me? What I am not willing to live with...is NO ability to manage this for myself? If my wives behaviors become too invasive....then I have a right to say something and I don't necessarily have to be Nice about it? I don't have to be harsh and critical...but I have a right to put my foot down and just state it simply....one time firmly...and not take NO for an answer in that respect? Her own lack of self confidence..and lack of ability compared to mine....is what causes her insecurities.....but running rough shod over me....is not going to happen if it becomes too bad and I need to say something and I don't give her a choice in the matter which she doesn't like ever...that's the point? She is never going to like it...and to that degree...I am always going to hear about that part every time I do it? But for my own self preservation..and to support myself...and validate myself....I need to do this...and respect myself enough to have the confidence to it....and still get the resistance thrown back in my face...and still be Okay?
What I am not willing to live with...is no control of say in these matters.....but within this concept of picking and choosing my battles...if I remain "consistant" her myself...with the repeated "pushing back" when appropriate....I am in essence....doing the same thing as I do in public....but without the social anxiety and shame factor present with her...and without the support of others at the time to back me up? I am on my own...in other words in doing anything about it....but....I'm not a door matt ( and then some ) kind of coming from the other direction? LOL To put it mildly? I have never made a good door matt....and that has normally not been my problem? My problem is not having a good ....mid range....and just getting pissed off and combative and returning fire which I do very well Thank you....when called upon as needed? LOL
So you can see this character better in respect to me here? I am fundamentally a passive person...who is not controlling or demanding? I always tended to internalize...instead of externalize...which made me lack self confidence? But only up to a point and the way that worked was when someone crossed the line....they kind of got what they were asking for...putting it that way!! LOL NO problem....but in respect to me....that was a problem? I was very good at giving people what they asked for...and in those cases....I got good at that too? LOL But when appropriate...that's great....but when it's not....it's a problem? Lacking the ability to be aggressive in my early days, and trying to go from .....passive.....to ....aggressive......when needed.....only lead to "passive aggressive" behavior since the ability to be aggressive had not been fully developed? But then later as a kid....in the jungle of the "play ground" and in sports....I learned to be very aggressive..and then some on top of it!! lol But only when called upon. Otherwise...I am basically a passive mild manner person...by nature...and that's a fact? But when "Superman" comes out....I turn from Clark Kent right into that role and I can do that well....when called upon as needed? This is only in respect to someone who is aggressively come at me....getting in my face...or attacking me personally so when those things aren't present...then this isn't a problem? I never...or almost never ( honestly ) draw first blood...and will turn and run or freeze...and flight is always the first option for me? But if I am cornered with no way out.....that is when I turn and fight and this is not a good quality in respect to being "good at combat" you might say? You will lose an arm or leg with me....even if you kill me? LOL If I am in that mode.....if I'm going to die.....you're going with me if your are the attacker and I am just trying to defend myself? LOL Not a good quality necessarily...unless you are actually in that situation?
So in respect to what I just said....there is self confidence I have in my ability here? This is not out of insecurity...it is from confidence and security instead and I wield it that way....but....now what?
If all I've got is passive by default....and a very well devolved "skill" in fighting ( and being aggressive on demand as needed ) where is the middle ground here and how do you get that?
What this started out as with my wife...was her doing her thing.......and she did it long enough....and it started escalating ( in her...more a panicky and highly aggressive response ) which I met....with pulverizing her!! LOL I have no problem in doing this...and it comes from exactly what I said? I am not afraid of fighting..and I make a worthy opponent? And I'm not afraid of getting hurt either so that doesn't make for a good combination with me if you are on the receiving end of this? This is not physical either....this is just going for the juggler and making end...just like that? In no uncertain terms? When it comes to fighting....my wife might be the aggressor and be the argumentative combative one....but she not very good at it....and is "childs play" as I have said? It's not even fair when I fip into Superman mode going from Clark Kent....but those methods I learned as a Security Bouncers at rock concerts....doesn't sit too well later when I fundamentally....'ejected her from the premises". LOL
Notice the word "ejected"....not ......"rejected" which is absolutely the case!!! Right into orbit you might say?? LOL So in respect this quality and putting this into it's proper place...I am passive.....not a "pacifist"....which is an important distinction to make? I think you could apply the words ...."demure" and non-combative to the quality of a pacifist....but in respect to "turning the other cheek".....the flip side to that is "turning the tables"...which many do not include in the same sentence? You don't get to Cherry Pick ....the Bible either....to fit you into it....instead of it...."into you"? And in respect to Jesus himself ( which is the way he is depicted many times ) he was man...and he got angry...and he wasn't always nice about it either..if you put it that way? That is a skill too...and he was not necessarily a passive either and never reacted with hostility when called upon ? Like a door mat you might say? He was the aggressor in the turning the table story....if you want to put it that way but done for a good cause? So to give him this equability of having a halo around his head with a bunch of sheep surrounding him ( as pictured many times )....he spoke up, he was assertive and he was aggressive about it at times since he was a man after all? The only time he didn't do that...was at the end which again...was for a purpose? Otherwise....I don't picture him as "push over"...by any means and didn't sound like her lack self confidence either...in putting it that way too? Turning the other cheek...doesn't mean to sit there and be a punching bag which I doubt seriously...that he was? Know what I mean? Turning the other cheek...referrers more to retaliation and revenge and pay back....not that you can't defend yourself?
So in respect to me at first.....I responded in kind which might be seen as appropriate in the face of an aggressive person who is escalating in front of your eyes? But pulverizing my opponent ( emotionally ) only served to STOP my wife from escalating any more in her kind of out of control and panicky...and highly aggressive way? But when I Stopped...she didn't and now what? How do you STOP that?
You do it as you said C...and you are so right on the money on that. When I STOP....she stops...since I am the leader and she is the follower in every case? That...is a compromise between two things I HATE....but I HATE...one more than the other...and I have to choose between the two? You may not always get what you want...but sometimes....you get what you need? ( as the song goes :)
The one thing I don't HATE....is my wife in all of this? I LOVE my wife.....I HATE the behaviors....simply put. As long as I have some means to control this....then I can live with "it". That's the bottom line for me at least?
J
PS I just thought of this as an after thought? Mutual Respect. In terms of Mutual Respect.....this is what I am not getting? But in respect to to everything I said....you have a right to expect it...and even demand it at times....when appropriate and when done well and at the right time? And in respect to the right time? It has to done "then"....there is not coming back later...and "talking abou it" which will make any difference? It is NOW or NEVER.....in the moment...or the window of opportunity closes and when it's gone...it's gone? Discussing it later or possibly a passing mention is slightly effective but is weak..and doesn't make an impact with any lasting force in applying it to a compulsion that is extremely difficult to manage? For them and for you in this case...which is why timing is everything? In respect to timing...."NOW" in the moment...is you're only shot as far as I can tell? So if you afraid of doing it right then when you need to..and not ready for what comes back at you and this is all too much? Then in essence....this is kind of like putting your head in the sand....and allowing the Elephant...to run rough shod over you out of your own fear in doing this and possibly...a lack of self confidence as well? It's not a game for the timid or weak.....that is for sure?? Either you have what it takes...or you don't. Saying it's Okay if that's not you....but actually identifying you part and your own deficiencies here ( or lack of doing so ) is not necessarily....the Elephants problem?
Just my take on this issue; you're experiencing w/ ur wife....
Submitted by c ur self on
(compulsive "director" as such?)
It's the curse!....I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; Your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you.”...(Desire for here, means to control)
And like you say, it is relentless (always there)...lol....Those that believe it, and are wise enough to recognize it, will discipline themselves in this area of truth about themselves...It would be like me or you going to a laid out field thinking I wasn't going to find briars and brambles growing in it...(Man's Curse).....Yep, every answer about my life is right there and sadly it's the last place I look many times....
Just my view...
C
We're On the Same Page....C
Submitted by kellyj on
It's a struggle, It's difficult. It's a challenge. It's relentless. And it never ends? But comment that NON made to you about getting to a stable place...where ( even though she is not managing it )...I am managing it and keeping the stability here so I can function at least...without walking on egg shells. What I found for myself and the place I call home? I will not walk on egg shells in my own house...that is where I draw the line as much as the amount of effort and exertion I have to put out there in order to do it?
I will say however....in what you said ( her desire...to control even if a compulsion? ) if met with so much force or energy pushing back against it....I find in reality....it is not much unlike a Bully in that respect? A Bully is getting something out of being a Bully...but in respect ( sincerely said ) I don't see my wife as a Bully even though these behaviors and the means to control you...do have a flavor of it none the less. It does have a similar ( distaste to it ) that is the same...and in the same way ( with a real Bully ) who is picking on you...the best option and always works with a Bully...is to punch them in the face as hard as you can right off the Bat...and show them who is Boss? There is no questioning that this works with a Bully...because a Bully is looking for someone who won't fight back...so they can continue taking ( what ever out on you) just to get their Jollies. Or to make them feel superiors to you and put you beneath them? The fastest way to stop a Bully who feels you are this person....is to kick them as hard as you can in the ( groin ) and stand over them and ask them if they want some more? And if they say YES.....you give them exactly what they ask for? That will stop them now...and it will stop them in the future because this is not what they are looking for...and they will move on to "greener pasture" so to speak? I have some experience with this enough to know....that this works every time!!! Like 100% of the time and that is a fact.
But in respect to a compulsion and this external locus of control issue.....our wives are not doing it to be a Bully....they are doing it from lack of control ( externally )...which is still just as invasive to you on the receiving end? In the essence of what I said in dealing with a Bully? I basically did this with my wife at first but not in a physical sense...and it did nothing to stop her ...and punching her in the face was not an option? ( facetiously said of course ). But in respect...and in the same disrespect that I was experiencing ( as with a Bully )...if she was a guy doing that to me in the same way and I told him to stop....he would have likely got smacked.....and no one would be the wiser? In essence...when you tell someone to stop..and tell them that what they are doing is hurting you and they don't comply.....this is beyond disrespectful know....this is now become abusive?( same as a Bully in everyway ) since they are picking on you...and doing so relentlessly?
Really....as I see it....this is exactly what my wife is doing more often than not? She is "picking on me" and doing so....to make herself feel better in some way which only makes me that punching bag...in order to take out her own frustrations on and it is totally not fair? Like I said....if a guy did the exact same things with me....it would be over in a matter of minutes. There is no wat he would get away with doing that with me....which he or I would figure this out in a hurry if he didn't stop when I told him too?
And this is what is so cowardly at time with my wife's approach and in this behavior she has? Since she's a woman...she can get away with it? She can do it at will..and if you threaten her in any way...she can pull out the "weaker sex" card and use that against you? If a man did the exact same thing......he be on the ground with me standing over him...and asking him if he'd like another? And it would be done and taken care of....and he would know exactly what he could expect the next time he tried? That is what is so despicable and low ( cowardly ) in respect to my wife at these times....she is shielded by something that for good reason...protects her from retaliation? But by means of this same protection she enjoys at my expense....she has no other reason to stop...and therefore...continue on at will?
So coining at it with a different perspective....if it is too much work and too much effort to do this with my anymore.....like a Bully in the same way....she will move on or stop doing it...if the cost or effort she is putting into it....is not getting the results that she wants from me in a ( non physical cost )...but in an emotional one none the less?
This was the part that was a little confusing for me when my T said....'give her what she wants". That would imply that I do as she says? That;s not what he meant by that? What he meant was...."full fill her need...even if it's compulsive...so as not to fight against it...but go with it...and reduce the conflict that way. Just as you said? But when the energy she's exerting...to continue doing this is not equal to the cost or price she has to pay.....then that does change what he said...and puts this into a different perspective? I'm not necessarily doing as "directed"...what I doing is meeting her needs...so she doesn't have to "direct" any more...when "directing" doesn't give her what she wants....but I'm doing it anyway without her having to do that as much?
Anyway.....it's hard and it takes a lot of work and effort and it does get to me at times....because sometimes, I just need a break myself? Doing what she does...is not hard for her and that because it is easier for her to do that....than work on herself in order to stop which I do understand is hard....but that is no excuse? It can be done and I know it...and she's not fooling me at least?
J
I struggle with this myself. A lot.
Submitted by DependentOrigination on
I think you have it nailed. Seriously. After 6 months of hard work and attempting to contain my anger and sadness and loss and grief of a spouse that does not exist, I have been a better person. Kinder, more forgiving, patient, happier. It means that my husband listens to me know, instead of fighting back. He acknowledges he has ADHD. Step one. Has that changed anything? No, certainly not. I have not slept in the same bed as my husband for the last 10 days. Which would be fine if it happened once a year. Sadly, we sometimes spend less than 6 hours together in a week. And unless I make a concerted effort to track him down and involve myself in his life, he often forgets I exist. Not literally, it just doesn't cross his mind.
And all that kindness, love, support, acceptance, gets me listened to now, if I have a concern, but I am still spending my life alone. Can that be fixed? I haven't quit yet. I have thought about it.
I have the same fear as you. That I will have cancer, and will be driving myself to appointments by myself. That I will fall down in my home one day, and no one will come look for me. I am 38. Healthy. Strong, But I know I won't always be that way.
I truly don't know. I am getting some response and recognition an acceptance from my husband this last month. Otherwise I would not likely keep trying. I have scheduled monthly planning dates for us, so as long as those don't get sabotaged I am hoping our lives get a bit closer together.
Possibly they won't. I don't think I will continue in my marriage if that is the case. I read a paragraph that Melissa wrote a couple of years ago and it said what my mom always says. It takes two to take a marriage. She said it is easy to go back to anger, when she is being ignored.
I like it D.O.
Submitted by c ur self on
I was just thinking as I read this....You are putting in the effort, and that is good....I believe in doing that, but, I've learned to ask myself when I take the bull by the horns in situations like you state here (I have scheduled monthly planning date for us) Why is this necessary?? What is my spouses true feelings about these planning meetings (how is she receiving it) that I am seeking to put into place??
Then I read the statement you made after that, which made me smile because it kind of took the thought right out of my head:)...It takes two!.....Yes indeed it does....If we are not careful we can spend years trying to coax our spouses into a healthy relationship of sharing....When their reality (the way they live, and the things they make their priorities) show's no desire for closeness and intimacy....
I'm learning to accept this difference, no matter what I think about it....I'm trying to never press, or seek to force anything any more...I'm not scared to be vulnerable and reach out to my W....I can't do anything about her responsibilities....She can accept them or she can neglect them, either way I will be fine.....
Besides, when a person does something out of guilt or coercion I've found the experience to be lacking in every area!....We are more important than that....
Blessings
C
This post of yours made me feel pretty sad...
Submitted by DependentOrigination on
Almost defeated, a few days ago. Seriously, lost some hope. I have always known, that if I cut my behavior down so that I am going to be only giving 50%, I am going to basically not have a relationship. In my husbands life, he has filled it up so much that he basically runs from one crises to another, and the squeakiest wheel gets all of his attention.
I can recognize parent child now that you all have so kindly pointed it out. However, I do think that radical acceptance also means, I do have to a bit of work, asking for the things I need, without violence, without force, because his brain doesn't work the same way as mine.
I understand, guilt and coercion suck for everyone. I feel bad because I feel like I have forced him to hang out with me. He isn't really present, because he has 17 things he really needs to get done.
So this is my compromise. Monthly planning dates, so I don't get blindsided by his wacko schedule last minute. Monthly planning dates so we can schedule a little time together. If he doesn't always follow through, so be it. But it is better than this last spell of 10 days of not spending the same night in the same home together, for no other reason than poor planning.
Yes, I recognize that I am doing the work to get the relationship I want. But my husband does desire closeness and intimacy. Perhaps not with the frequency or the intensity that I desire it. Sometimes he just loses it in his untreated ADHD brain. And I don't want both of us to lose a good thing because of something that is neither of us is to blame for.
This post is actually where I started to differentiate out all of the people who I have come across on this forum's approach to their ADHD spouse. In a non personal way. I get your approach to your wife. And maybe I will come to the same place as you in a few years. But I think I owe my husband and myself a little more than just letting his ADHD lose us, when that doesn't need to be.
We will see. It does take two. And if I am honest with myself, there have been plenty of times my husband has gone out of his way to do something nice for me. To seek me out, for the only purpose of being with me. Not because he needed something, but because he wanted me. And maybe that doesn't happen enough times to make me happy, but it does happen. So on we go.
Sounds good D.O.:)
Submitted by c ur self on
It all boils down to knowing ourselves, and just being real with ourselves about our efforts and our unique situations....When I speak to the place I've had to come to in order to have a healthy life, and live well myself; it is just that, my experience....I know sometimes I can come off a bit (a lot) like...OK let me tell YOU what YOU need to do....That's one of my problems!....I need to be aware and work it....
I truly wish you well in life and in your marriage....
C
It is hard knowing what to do
Submitted by adhd32 on
Now that I see what our problem is, I too see the parent/child thing in my behavior. The behavior is difficult to curtail when you have to depend on someone who is unreliable. ADD spouse is incapable of giving even 20% to the relationship because he spends so much time putting out fires. ADDers become another child because they can't remember to go to the store on the way home, or get the kids at grandma's, or deposit the money so the check clears. It is not their fault that their brain doesn't work rationally but the infuriating part is all those responsibilities become yours if you want to ensure the bills are paid or the kids are picked up. They say, "What's the big deal?" But, when you point out that it is 20 degrees outside and your son waited over half an hour in the dark after sports for his pickup they blame with YOU. They say they are sorry but do nothing (set an alarm, post a note on the dashboard) to prevent it from happening again. Or, they actually have the nerve to complain about how the bank is "ripping me off" on all the extra penalties and fees for late payments but then don't set up a system to remind themselves to pay the bill on time. Or, I should just happily accept the expense for yet another phone (4 so far this year) left behind on the train because he is unwilling to adopt some type of personal organizational system when sitting in his seat. So, all these expenses from his "mistakes", which he refuses to learn from, cost everyone in the family something. The theory of letting him suffer the consequences of his actions would work only if he were single. When other people are involved it is difficult to be let down over and over and have to mend fences and pick up the pieces while they make excuses for themselves. How do you NOT remind them? How do you NOT clean up the mess? I want to live in a place I am proud of. Sorry if you can't see the piles and clutter but it IS there and it needs to be addressed!! Someone has to be in control. Sorry if this is an unpopular view but if ADDer can't take control, someone else has to drive the train or the whole thing goes off the rails.
As you pointed out, you are doing the work to get the relationship you want. What does he want? You do the planning and the dates and he desires the closeness but what if you didn't plan? Would he put in any effort for you? You feel like you have to force him to hang with you? Close relationships are not typically one-sided. A relationship is give and take but you give and he seems to only happily take. Would you tolerate a one-sided relationship with a friend where you do all the inviting, planning, and phoning and they just showed up? Why compromise?
(Now that I see what our
Submitted by c ur self on
(Now that I see what our problem is, I too see the parent/child thing in my behavior. The behavior is difficult to curtail when you have to depend on someone who is unreliable. ADD spouse is incapable of giving even 20% to the relationship because he spends so much time putting out fires. ADDers become another child because they can't remember to go to the store on the way home, or get the kids at grandma's, or deposit the money so the check clears. It is not their fault that their brain doesn't work rationally but the infuriating part is all those responsibilities become yours if you want to ensure the bills are paid or the kids are picked up. They say, "What's the big deal?")
This point you make here adhd32 is the reality of many marriages....What you have is an adult who can't be trusted to take on adult responsibilities in critical area's of life....And what sticks the hot poker in your heart is....."What's the big deal??" This...What's the big deal, is Denial!...(The inability and or refusal to accept ownership of one's own actions) It's what causes most of the battles when one spouse is constantly pointing out (in my case, especially early on in the marriage with great emotions and anger, which made it double bad) the behaviors of the other....Just anything to try and press them to take ownership and be responsible for their roles....(I finely realized it was just two wrongs and it was destroying me and us) So this reality is what made me come to understand that it was up to me to manage my life in order to maintain everything I had to do, without placing unrealistic expectations.... (Not compatible with reality or fact)....
Wanting what wasn't available was ten times harder and 20 times more stressful than just doing what needed done....So I think a person has two choices....Move on or stay and manage our lives in a way that allows for acceptance of our spouses.....What does that consist of? The short version for me was, and is....Live just like they don't exist in area's of responsibility where for all practical purposes they do not,...The things we find we can not share responsibly in...In my case there is boundaries....Like separate finances, do taxes separate, I drive a separate vehicle or she rides w/ me. Preplanning, agreeing and documenting before trips or vacations together (cover everything that has caused conflict in the past)...I also retired early at age 56, so I could make my life smaller to handle the load at home....I know everyone can't do what I've done in the physical world to cope with the reality of my relationship....But if a person gets tired enough of the dysfunction, tired of being angry, tired of act and react...The constant shock and awe....You find a way to set boundaries to bring some semblance of a peaceful existence into the home that is workable....
Yes, he would put in some effort for me...
Submitted by DependentOrigination on
I am getting better at testing this. Not reminding him of my existence and seeing how little our relationship contains. He often surprises me. In a good way!
So here is the part where I feel guilty at times for complaining about my husband. Because he is higher functioning than most of the ADDers' and kinder than a lot of the spouses on here with comorbidities.
My husband has a job. Yes, I am constantly amazed he isn't let go. But he does have a job. It pays well. Yes he has debt, but he manages his debt. He pays his bills (90% of the time). While our finances are linked through marriage, other than that, we live separate lives financially, so his mistakes don't impact my current cash flow, and my mistakes don't impact him. Our kids (I have one, he has three) are mostly grown. There is NO WAY I would have married him if he had small children. Too much of my life would have been taken up raising his kids while he was playing and spending money on himself. But, they are grown. Not my problem, mostly. I am comfortable that I am not ready to be a grandparent as my daughter is still in my care (she is 17, and not yet out of the house). So I don't do as much for his grandkids as I should, but I am okay with that. I want a period of independence when my daughter is out of the house, before I take on any more children. Regardless, except for the fact that he is going from one crises to another and ignoring me and sometimes forgetting our plans or showing up late, and sometimes forgetting to pay the mortgage, I have it pretty well set up so I mostly benefit from our relationship. It took awhile to get there, but I am there now. Yes, I have lost, in that I don't have one of those imaginary "real" spouses, but I am still better off than when I was single. I think. I am in a good mood today, so don't take what I say at face value, lol.
Why compromise? Because I believe in the institution of marriage. Because I was the dummy who fell for the hyper focus and married him despite some pretty significant doubts. Because I have learned more about myself and relationships than I have in years. Because quitting is easy, but also ridiculously hard and painful. Because he does often, text, call, invite me for dinner, make passionate love, just like one of those "real" spouses, as long as he doesn't have two many items in the air. Because he hasn't cheated, or abused me. Because he has good traits as well as bad ones. Because he put up with a lot of my stress and anxiety at the beginning of my relationship. Because this is only year three, and I am only 6 months in from enlightenment and have so many ideas of how to do it better. Because he loves his kids (when he remembers them). Because if I need him to do something in an emergency, he will do it. Because he can fix things and lift things and make things from drawing or ideas in my mind. Maybe he doesn't do it exactly the way I would like, or in the time I would like it done, or with my participation sometimes, but that's just life, and for me to expect him to be an automaton under my control would be delusional. Its not 80/20 like your relationship, it was 65/35 and now that I am doing less (and working on myself) it is more like 55/45.
If I didn't believe in marriage, I would be out of here, gone, on the path to other things. But being on the path to other things is what I did for 33 years of my life. This inew me something I am trying out. And maybe it will be all for naught. Maybe it will all be some big sacrifice of my time and effort. But maybe that is just my mind playing with me, trying to find an outlet, an escape, and maybe, everything is all right, already, and my brain doesn't want to deal with the own mess I have made and so is looking for any means to escape.
I don't know. I own a house, because of my relationship. I have fancy climbing and camping equipment, because of my relationship. Maybe it isn't what I envisioned, but maybe its enough. Maybe. Maybe the freedom is good for me. Who knows?! Its an endless wormhole we can travel when we examine this shit too closely. There are as many arguments in as many directions with as many realities. This is my reality. After deciding to get married, I met my husband in one of the most romantic moments of my life. We had an incredibly intense period of hyper focus. During that period, my own life fell apart. I conveniently abandoned my life and stress and responsibilities for his. Then when I started waking up to my life as his personal assistance, I wanted my own life back, and it was gone. Who is to blame there?
Those are really good questions you ask adhd32 and I think your situation is different than mine. I can answer those questions in a lot of ways and answering those questions is part of the process I have committed to do. To not do things impulsively, but with thought, and consideration, and integrity. Maybe I am wasting my life, and the man who would make all my dreams come true is one divorce away from me. Most likely not. I am more than capable of making my dreams come true. I did it for 33 years. Then pouted for four. The 33 were a lot more fun.
Sometimes I clean up my husband's messes. Sometimes he cleans up mine. Sometimes I walk right past his messes. Sometimes I walk right by mine. Sometimes we both work together to clean it up. Sometimes we both ignore it. One thing he is very good at is limiting his blame of me and his anger towards me. He does occasionally attempt to do some silly controlling things as he is used to kids in his life. He is learning though, that I am more than capable of making my way in the world. I have to learn that even though his life seems crazy to me, he has been living it for 45 years. None of us know what the next years are going to bring us. I am going to try to live a full, responsible, meaningful life full of good things. Whether he participates or not. Good luck to you. I would be tempted to drive the train in your situation as well. I was exhausted after three years of trying to keep my husbands train on the rails, now I have just worked my way around the crashes.
VaPA I Can Only Speak For Myself
Submitted by kellyj on
And I can only speak for my experience with my wife here as well? You asked?
Who is looking out for me? who is going to give me the support i need?
The answer for me is......No one? I'm on my own. My wife will never put my needs first or doing anything without getting something for her self in return? And if she needs to do something that involves doing something where she gets no benefit....she will never do it for my if it doesn't serve her at the same time in some way?
Example: She will bring me something I like from the store.....only if she was going there for something she needed too? I always appreciate the thought and Thank her for thinking of me which is a kind thing to do? But is this a generous gift in other words? Not really....if I asked her to go get me this thing and got nothing out of it herself...she wouldn't do it and refuse saying she is far too busy, she tired and overwhelmed from work, or she doesn't feel good or that something is wrong with her so she can't or won't do it. Period? If I want something myself....I have to get it myself. My wife never supports me and what I want...and doesn't want to here about it even? She is very selfish in this way and always thinks in terms of her and what she wants first? If the answer to ....what do I want...is NO.....then she won't do it. Ever. And I mean that sincerely.....ever....and never.
One time...I got really really sick...and my wife was annoyed and irritated with me....because I couldn't do for her...the things she wanted me to do...because I was sick. Actually...me being sick only made her irritated and annoyed to the point...that she could not understand why I couldn't do for her....like I normally do? Just the opposite of what most people would normally do in that situation?
She lacks the ability or capacity to give...without strings attached. She has no concept of what a "gift" is or what "giving is"? She always has to get something first....before she will give anything and that is just the way she is?
So the answer is.....if I want anything....I have to get it for myself? No one is looking out for me ever. No one is there to give support....ever. If I want support....I have to get that for myself and asking for anything where she gets nothing directly from it....is always....and I mean.....always.....a refusal. Period.
The answer is. No one. You are on your own in that one I'm afraid if your husband is like my wife that is? Is this likely to improve going from 0 and staying that way consistently? Probably not. I'm not holding my breath for sure and proceeding as if.....there was no one there and I am alone in that respect however.....my wife expect me to do for her always...without questioning and if I don't....this upsets her? She is very selfish and I can't see any other way to describe this other than use the word in how it looks like to me? And I have ADHD and I completely do not understand this what so ever? It makes no sense to me...that's for sure but it is what it is? I expect nothing from my wife, I ask nothing from her, I don't even attempt to ask since there will always be a list of contingencies and Bullshit excuses and mostly......."shit" comes out of her mouth ( as her reasoning why she can't or won't ) because she is full of it...right up to here eye balls? ( as it appears to me only from my perspective? ) This all has to do with "doing things" for me. My wife is not a "doer"....she is non productive and take the easy route in everything and will not do anything "hard" or anything she does not want to do ...which in respect to me.....that would be "nothing".
There you go. You can't squeeze blood out of turnip and you can't get "shit from nothing"....as they say? This is my life...but this is nothing knew to me? I've been this way as long as I can remember and anything I have ever wanted....I have to get myself or do without? For me....this is the "norm"...but I know it's not normal? I'm just saying.....this is what I am use to even if I don't like it? But really...when I think about it....it changes nothing in my life....from where I was before? Nothing's changed.....and it's just Par for the course in in my case and I'm use to it?( but have never liked it )
Like I have said in past comments as far as my family life went? "Every man, woman, and child for themselves. If you want something....you have to earn or buy it with what ever currency you need to barter or exchange with? You don't get....until you give first and maybe...not even then? There is no such thing as a free lunch or getting things for "free". Nothing is "free" ever and you deserve nothing? If that paints a picture in the way my entire family operated under....then this might give you an idea of where this comes from and why?
So under these rules.....you have to initiate everything always first if it something you want? And with me...I have to be one step ahead of her and beat her to the punch since she will get her two bits in ahead of you...and try and "out plan" you as she says...she is a "planner". Actually...she is in a race to get to the front of the line first and tries to make sure she does in order to out flank you.( very greedy looking ) Her needs come first. Always. Her wants...come first....always. She decides for the two of us.....what I want and need ( very unhealthy....very co-dependent )
And...she never asks what I want ever ( like never ever....wait take that back? She might have asked in 4 years maybe a half a dozen times?otherwise...never ) She thinks she can read my mind or has magical abilities ( but when I point out how she doesn't....she gets angry )...and actually believes she can I think...otherwise...why would she get angry when I show her that she can't? Which is just more shit on top of more shit coming out of her mouth and when I point this out and then more shit comes out as a means to confound the situation even more? This is not worth the effort of even trying to have a conversation with ....so I don't....and I don't ask for anything? I tell her nothing of what I want or need...and as long as I do that....we don't argue. She thinks I'm that stupid...that I can't see through her like this and thinks she can get away with it...which I use to not let her get away with it and say something but that only caused a fight? So now I don't say anything ( or share anything with her about anything that I feel or want and keep that to myself and just listen and watch and pay attention to all of this very closely and listen very intently to everything she says ) I personally feel she is full of shit because that's the only thing that comes out of her mouth....shit and more shit on top of it? That's my personal assessment applying what it looks and feels like to me? Remember...I have ADHD too....and I can apply myself to this up to a point and know when someone is full of shit or not in this case? And since I don't want to hear shit....I do not ask or inquire and just let the shit...roll down hill and right by me since that is the only way...not to get any on me? All she would have to say is one word in order to avoid all the shit that come out of her mouth...and that would be NO. No...would be honest...but is uses "shit" in a thousand words to say NO....instead? Go figure? "No" would be a Hell of a lot easier than a thousand words of shit instead?
The thing is here for me....I am very independent and self reliant anyway.( always have been and I really don't need anything from anyone except for Love and respect which I'm not getting either? I've never really had anyone there backing me up or supporting me...so this does not feel unusual for me? The only thing that is unusual with this situation with my wife is....she actually expects for me to give to her what she is not willing to give...and gets upset when I don't? That's just crazy weird and completely retarded in my eyes but....I can pick and choose what I give or not....and since she's not giving anything back......"beggars can't be choosers"...if that's the rules of this game she is playing here? I can play any game anyone wants to play...as long as I know the rules? I think more than anything for you here VaPA....you just need to know the rules of the game so then you will know how to play?
My attitude here is....I'd rather not play this game....but in that....I don't have a choice except leave if I don't want to play? That's it? Stay and play....or leave...take your pick? I used this example just to put this into my perspective as what it appears like to me in my own words but it is what it appears like...if I have nothing else to work from and even with trying to use myself as a means to compared to?
J
Example of "Shit" Here for You
Submitted by kellyj on
Last night....my wife tried to convince me...that I needed to get permission from her I( like a child )...before I showed her something ( a video on YouTube ) in an effort to explain something that she was not understanding? Instead of saying "I don't understand"...she tried to convince she that she did and told me what she understood which clearly showed me she didn't understand? So instead of arguing with her....I proceeded to pull up a video instead and she told me I should have asked first? Like huh? ( something I've done with most anyone I know without asking their permission? ) Or she could just say "NO" I don't want to see it? Which would have been fine? Instead....( the shit came out ).."you need to ask people if this is Okay with them?"
"People? You mean you don't you?"
"No....people. It's the polite thing to do? "
"Really? I have never had anyone say this too me? What do you mean?"
"Well....in an intimate relationship of with people you care about....you should ask first to see if they want to hear it?
"Gee...that's not my experience? In fact....my experience is that I would do that in a formal setting with people I DIDN'T know very well because I would be unsure if that was alright...but with my close friends or intimate relationships....it is more causal and you don't have to have your guard up so much? We aren't children you know? We're adults and don't need permission for such things like this first? "
"So you're telling me...that no one else require permissions...and I don't like the word permission...it sounds judgmental?"
"Okay...what other word should I have used then? "
"Consent maybe. Consent sounds better?"
"Okay....consent then? What you are asking me then...is for your consent first..to see it's Okay with you? That is the requirement of me that you are asking for? To see if You're Okay with this first...before I do anything like this...is that what you are saying"
"Well...I don;t like the word "requirement"...that sounds judgmental"
"Huh? I don't understand? If you need my consent to do something...this is a requirement? How else can I say this? All I can say...is that no one has ever asked that of me...so you are the first? But as you got irritated with me...which seemed as though you thought I should know that ahead of time? Now I do....but now I have something new to remember to do so I don't offend you like I did?"
"What are you saying....that I have a Challenge? Is that what you are saying...that I'm the only one you have to do this with and that I'm a challenge?????"
"I never used the word challenge or was even thinking of that word? Where did that come from? All I said was....I had never had anyone ask that of me before and that this was a new requirement and one I have to now remember since I am not use to this...since this is not what I'm use to doing with my causal relationships and friends? That's all I said?""
And that was it.....she started attacking me personally and started spiraling telling me a litany of "shit" that just spewed forth in a spiraling stream of shit coming out of her mouth that went from this topic....too...how she had a good day and now it's ruined...too her problem at work...too her problem with a client....too her problem about her problem and more problems and negativity just barfing and spewing in a steady stream of unrelated, disconnected statements that had nothing to do with anything ( shit on top of shit on top of more shit ) until I put my hand up and yelled STOP!! And she tried to continue and I yelled STOP!! ( again ) And said "I don't need to hear what you already said before and I don't want to hear it again" What she says all the time..."I don't want to talk about it which means..;...I don't want to hear it and she stops me right dead in my tracks just like I did with her then?
And then she got up and stormed out...only to return and sat down. Then she said....."turn on the TV so were not just sitting here in silence? So I reached for the remote...and started to turn on the tube....but I stopped and thought.....better ask first? I need permission like a child? So I uttered ONE word and she stopped me and said...." I don't want to talk about it!!!" ( me ) But??...."You need to respect me when I say I don't want to talk about it?"
And I said "I'm asking permission....like you requested....since I'm not going to put something on like you said...unless I have your permission or consent...either word you choose.... and I'm doing exactly as you requested only 5 minutes ago?"
"Oh...I thought you were going to talk about something else?" ( thinking she can read my mind again ...like some Magical Mystic person? ) "I don't care what you put on? " Ha ha ha ha ha ha!!! Unbelievable????? She doesn't care....but she wants me to get permission....like a child?
Shit...on top of shit....on top of more shit...and she makes no sense what so ever? At face value which is what I am trying to take her as and just repeating back to her what she says? And then...out of the blue...starts attacking me and accusing me of doing what she is doing? Mind reading? All I can tell you...is that she is very bad at mind reading but she doesn't think so? She said so in more words and thinks she knows what other people are thinking and feeling? That I was thinking she had a Challenge which is true....but I wasn't thinking this at all until she said it? Now I do think she has a challenge...and the challenge that it looks like is IDD....not ADD?
I think my wife is IDD ( Intellectual Developmental Disability ) honestly? It is exactly what it looks like at face value? Which is PC for mental retardation or a severe learning disability that falls under the same heading? Honestly...when shit like that comes from an adult...with that level of reasoning ability...it is all I can think of to explain this since at face value....this is actually what I think since this is actually what it appears like? At face value??
So to avoid the shit...I say nothing and then none of this happens? My mistake...was saying anything this time. Next time...I will say nothing which is exactly what she wants? Shit...from ...nothing. ( nothing up stairs so only shit comes out? ) The perfect description of my wife here just to put this into context in what I said?
J
So then What??
Submitted by ADHD_Highway_to... on
OK, I totally get what you're saying. . . . you've responded to some of my posts before with a lot of wisdom, so I guess my quesiton is simple - then what? OK, maybe not so simple - what does one do what you're in a situation like that, how do you handle it afterwards when it seems like you're being blamed for everything that went wrong in an exchange like that when in reality it takes 2 to tango. . . . . one of those damned if you do damned if you don't situations. . . . . .
Cause and Effect................Highway
Submitted by kellyj on
I was thinking about what you were saying....and I thought about this "after the fact" as you said? No matter what happens ( anywhere at any time ).....something before an event...has too...or would have had to have happened....that is the causes to any reaction or effect. Right?
You are asking a "what if " question? What do you do when it seems like you are being blamed for everything that went wrong in an exchange like that? ( like mine in my comment )
Seems as if? Either you are or you aren't but what is not clear....is the answer to this question? If you don't know the answer ( for sure )....then it makes it difficult to know what to do after the fact or even during the fact ( or event in the moment? )
You I guess you are asking....HOW to you manage a situation like this and not let it effect you? And yes....it is a stalemate or no win situation and you are dead locked without any means for resolution? So in any exchange....you have the initiator, aggressor, protagonist, prosecutor, plaintiff or solicitor...or any way you want to look at it? And then you have the respondent, defendant, reactionary or advocate in any exchange since it takes two to tango?
So first.....in order to know or understand this situation....you have to know which one you are? The plaintiff....or....the defendant? That being said.....the "plaintiff " ( or complainer )...is the aggressor here? And if you are the respondent....then you are the defendant in either case dependent on which one you are? And since there is no judge or jury here to act as the mediator and referee in determine the final outcome in a stand off like this......in the eyes of the law at least....procession is 9 tenths of the law meaning....the burden of proof lies on the side of the plaintiff ( or complainer ) to provide you with reasonable, logical evidence...to support their claim and back it up with "proof" or evidence in language that any layman or woman can understand? And in light of that situation with my wife for example....she failed to pass this test? No logic or making a valid argument or in a way that I could understand? What I got instead of "logic".....was a veiled attempt to manipulate me with "information".....not valid arguing or debate. All I heard was a listing ( or spewing of "information" ) without a coherent "thought" behind it? No logical reasonable "knowledge" was provided me in order for me to make any good "judgment" or decision? Remember....I am the advocate and my own "judge"....in a situation like that?
So without any reasonable "knowledge" or "point of law" established here.......all I got was "information" being thrown at me in an accusatory and highly emotional way in the form of emotional reasoning and circular logic in an attempt to validate her claim with me and the burden of proof had not been met to my satisfaction because spewing or emotional "information" used as ammo against me.....is a back door attempt....to win an debate or argument by manipulations instead? An attempt to discredit me and make me second guess my responsibility which was a failed ( and some what "weak" and kind of "bullshit maneuver...on my wife's part in trying to use this a "Bullshit" method in doing so and I recognized the invalidity of her stated "claims" or "accusations"....based on the fact...that in any debate or contest in and intellectual exchange......logic and reason reign supreme? And any time you make it personal...as in an attack on the persons themselves or an attempt to invalidate them that way ( by using "information" as a weapon or as ammo against you ) this is not longer a debate or argument....and is just a personal attack on your credibility...bu accusation only? and just more attacks and more "information" from the past being used as a tool or weapon as a means of "manipulating you"....but not winning the debate or argument in an intellectual or intelligent way?
It's really nothing more.....than attacking you...for the sake of attacking you and upsetting you emotionally.....instead of any valid "knowledge" or anything "intelligible"...being provided to back the claim and make a reasonable demand or you?
But what if you don't have ownership here in respect to possession? You can't have possession....unless you own it and it's yours and you are sure of it...without a doubt in your mind? So if that's the case.....and this with holding the actual "logical intelligible" (understandable ) information is not being provided in the realm of reality as in "logic and reason"..and the only currency being used here is an attack...with "information" only as a means for emotional black mail which is underhanded and manipulative right from the start? And further....if you are unsure of your own ownership in this case? Then "intel" is necessary and "reconnoiter" is in order...to determine your ownership before you can say anything....first? And then once you have that...you can develop a strategy or means to counter these "claims" which are only worth the paper they are written on ...so to speak?
In the mean time....if the burden of proof....has not been met as demanded in a reasonable intelligent interchange as it were? To a reasonable satisfaction that any one could understand which is impossible when the those "proofs" have not been provided ( in the moment not about the past ) and all this is a weak attempt ( an obvious one ) at manipulation ( clearly obvious )...when all you get is "Shit"....or emotional out pouring, emotional reasoning...and emotional circular logic......then this person is not making a valid claim...and attempting to black mail you emotionally and making everything personal instead which by definition...is an "attack" on your person instead of using logic and reason instead? "Spewing "information".....in rapid fire machine gun style..and playing both sides of the fence (alternatively) between the two in an attempt to throw you off guard..... with absolutely no logic or reason being provided anywhere in sight....or being provided to you as the advocate here to make a good judgment of your own?
Basically...in a court of law for example in this kind of adversarial relationship.....every "tenant" or "article" of the law...is being broken and violated but no judge but you is there to act as referee? And where is the "point of law" being expressed or provided either? Where???? So now you have a decision to make and it boils down to ownership? If you are unsure of your ownership ( or possession ) in this case.....like I said....further investigation in in order before you say anything and the debate or any attempt at arguing against "shit"...is a waste of time for obvious reasons?
But if you have that ownership yourself...and have that in your possession with all the facts of evidence you need...but the only person is with holding the discovery information as required in order to have a debate in the first place? Then they are the ones who are empty handed in this case....and are automatically disqualified for lack of evidence and fair discovery in you case?
And since possession then...is 9 tenths of the law as default here...and you own that already now in respect to your own defense....but are not able to or allowed to use it ( or should you since the entire premise is invalid and illegitimate ) since the burden or proof has not been met or any other criteria offered or afforded you in you own defense even if you tried?
Well that simplifies this tremendously now doesn't it? Which makes for a quick and easy judgment to put a stop to it once and for all in the movement and then afterwards for you emotionally speaking as means to survive one of these emotionally dishonest assaults?
He / She who smelt it......dealt it.
And you walk away .....clean. Done deal.....no problem? Until the proper channels are being used and afforded you....you as the defendant...are afforded the right...to be innocent..until proven guilty, the right of discovery...and the right to plead the 5th ( the right not to incriminate yourself period ) ...and any means other than logic and reason and with holding discovery ( and instead unreasonableness and emotional reasoning is being used instead )...which is totally unreasonable .....and therefore...invalid and illegitimate. In that case.....then he/ she who smelt it dealt it....always applies as default until which time....that burden or proof is met in a satisfactory and legitimate way?
My wife's entire approach is illegitimate and invalid ( and is manipulative and therefore invalid and illegitimate right from the get go ).....that's the point...even if what she wants or needs is completely reasonable and legitimate and there is nothing wrong with it? But until she can get a handle on her emotional "reactionism" and "volatility".....and trying to use under handed means to manipulate me instead? Then she gets nothing from me...until she earns it in these moments....and "She who smelt it dealt it".....still applies until that time when ever that time is? What I won't do is play little girl games with her...since Homey don't play that game?
There you go....you need to own it first and if you don't......then that does need to happen first...before you can truly engage and commit in any adversarial competition even if you don't want to play...but you need to stop it in it's tracks? And pulling out "She who smelt it....dealt it".....does a fine job at that....let me tell you!!!! The burden of proof...is on the claimant if you are the being the one accused? You don't have to say anything or defend yourself ( or incriminate yourself )....if you know for fact....you did nothing wrong and you own it....that's the point?
J