I had a moment yesterday night... as I was sobbing in the phone to my husband (the result of two sleepless nights - no inciting cause for the insomnia and having only seen him 3 of the last 8 nights about 6 hours total, and no shared nights sleeping together). And after I hung up from my conversation with him, I was kicking myself. Because, while my "negotiations" (for lack of a better term - they aren't really fights anymore - although I have thrown things twice his month) are getting better, I still keep forgetting the rules I set out for myself:
1. Learn to ask for help without hurting someone.
2. Learn to ask for help without hurting anyone.
3. Don't miss him when he's gone, and fight with him when he is around. Then it's just a vicious cycle. Love him voraciously when he is around, and love yourself when he is not.
So my question is this: When did my best friend, biggest support, and lover, become my enemy, not my ally. As I sat there sobbing on the phone, he said some pretty interesting things like: he does feel lonely, he is alone. And how did our relationship get so turned around we are both contravening the actual things that might make us both better or happier. He truly wants to be a good spouse. So how do we help each other in this?
(I get why some of it turned around - some disloyalty, my misunderstanding of his ADD behaviours, his control issues - but my husband is a good and generous husband who loves his kids, has tons of acquaintances, but constantly is losing friends).
How do I inspire him to make this the greatest marriage on the face of the planet? How do I harness all that ADHD energy and turn it to an advantage?
L.
(PS. Had the shock of my life tonight when my beautiful 17 year old daughter who has been struggling in school this year screened strongly positive on a self assessment questionnaire for inattentive ADHD)
Hi DO....You have no control on the marriage, but you do the *W*
Submitted by c ur self on
(How do I inspire him to make this the greatest marriage on the face of the planet? How do I harness all that ADHD energy and turn it to an advantage?)
I have run a huge circle (find myself back at the wedding ceremony) with questions like your asking in my marriage relationship....It was really good for me to read books like Delivered from Distraction, and also Melissa's book about marriage, along with other educational materials concerning add/adhd...I really needed to educate myself about the effects and struggles it can cause....It made what I was experiencing seem less personal, which was definitely a good thing for me.
But as the old saying goes.."The damage was done"
A while back I came to realize a couple of things needed to happen (inside me) for this marriage to improve....One was I had to quit allowing adhd (the term & the reality it plays in her life) to have a role in my efforts as her H....I needed to be the Best H on the face of the Planet....Strictly because I Vowed to Love Her and Desired to do so....She deserves my best....No excuses!
The other thing I struggled with (still do at times) that hindered this effort was (her reality) what I've experienced coming back from her a great deal of the time (my selfishness desire to experience what she may never be able to give)...It has been quiet difficult for me to not allow expectations to effect my pursuit, and desire to be this great H....
When you get right down to it though, it's pretty simple.....Every marriage is the exact same thing....It's the product of two people's effort to be one.
The word product here is Key....If I refuse to allow my (product) desire and commitment to be a great H, be effected by her (product) personal desire and commitment to being a W...Then I can accomplish my Goal in this relationship....
My best or her best will always be effected by the attributes of the other just because marriage is relational, it take the sharing of two for many things....There will be limits placed on the experience based on things like desire, openness, submission and trust to name a few...And that is fine, that's reality, and it can change as personal baggage and walls break down and fade away....
The more each one of these two (products) people eliminate things in their own lives that hinder their ability to be a great H or W, the more the barriers come down....But we can't help each other but in one way, being what we desire (the product) for ourselves with them....With no selfishness or expectations....Every spouse should have your goal for their themselves....I'm going to live out my whole like working to be the best H or W on the planet!....But, you need to add one more line here....No matter what my spouse's commitment is!
C
C, DO
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
...tracking on your conversation this morning...
The more each one of these two (products) people eliminate things in their own lives that hinder their ability to be a great H or W, the more the barriers come down...
I do think, if the relationship, whatever shape it's in, is stable enough, meaning I guess, predictable enough from day to day, with no major alarms and harms from, say, erratic action due to substance addiction, thievery, or an abuse campaign going on, that you're right, C.
I think it takes a somewhat stable relation to have the opportunity to do the acceptance work that you've done. I do very much agree that the best and really only thing a partner can do is release one's own attachments to one's own fears, expectations preferred to the realities in front of one. Release in oneself of what hinders. Sometimes the situation needs me to first release something in me that I've been clinging to, and in its place seek to put something better. What was healthy and good for me to do in the past may not be healthy and good for me to be doing with my husband and to myself in the present. Release. Release and replace. It does make me more stable and non harmful for my partner to live with. The simpler and more at peace I get in my soul, the easier it gets to get through the day, and the more room I have in my heart and mind for my own growth. But I'm in a stable enough relation right nowto have the space to work on these things.
.But we can't help each other but in one way, being what we desire (the product) for ourselves with them....With no selfishness or expectations.
That last is a goal.
I want to bring in the issue of loneliness here at the point of thinking about expectations, from another exchange between the two of you, and break loneliness into two levels.
Part of my old history is that I feared, that is, expected, rejection and being cast out by those I loved. It went 'way back. I had good reason to develop that expectation. But I carried that fear of being cast away by someone I loved into my life as a young adult, and both applied it to people who it was unfairly applied, and also chose to date sometimes those who were inclined to use that fear I had of castaway loneliness, toying with me. This putting myself into fear of being rejected and left alone and even fearing getting into love relationships at all for fear of being rejected and left alone continued until I understood that I was doing this to myself.
And that only I could attend to this kind of loneliness dysfunction I had. I had to have it out with my loneliness. I am not talking about either solitude or about handling myself, living alone. Nor am I talking about introversion. I am talking about loneliness. There is a big difference between loneliness and solitude. It took some work to find and face my loneliness. You rally have to go spelunking in yourself and keep going on down until you find it. I think it needed to be done if I were ever going to stop holding myself back from relationship for fear of being rejected, alternating with choosing a nearly guaranteed rejecter of me, who would play with my attempt to be perfect, to avoid being cast away. I had to confront my own loneliness of that kind. I think it's good that I finally did try, because as far as I can tell, aging, after awhile guarantees that your loved ones, one by one, are separated from you by death. Advanced old age has loneliness in it.
C between you and me I dont think that all the gifts that our Lord puts by our wayside, to take up and receive if we choose to do so are easy ones, all the time. Some of the gifts are fierce ones. The call to deal with my from early life loneliness wasnt a call into quick, easy work, and it was beyond the toolkit of therapy. We'll see how well I did that work as I age. we'll see whether or not I have to do more work on it later. There's a good sign now, That gives me hope. I do think we all choose our husbands, wives and boyfriend/girlfriends, even if we dont yet know them well when we choose them. My husband, with ADHD self focus is the farthest thing on the planet from someone who would either cast me away or play with my fear of being cast away. It gives me hope that I've graduated from the old angst of trying to protect myself from being left alone.
And there's another level of loneliness that I dont think is dysfunctional at all. I think it is existential, meaning that every human being by the fact of being born, living, and dying, must at times and prhaps finally, know that they are existentially alone in their born, created self. I dont wnt to get too far into this since as usual, my post is starting to get long. There's a lot of Christian writing about this existential loneliness, and with good reason because the whole of Christian tradition, the 2000 years of it, has often a specialist emphasis on this kind of loneliness that other religious traditions dont get so into. By the fact of being born, living and dying in part we live in loneliness that is not dysfunctional, it just is. We are born knowing ourselves separate and knowing ourselves incomplete without union with an other, with others, with Another. The work need onl learning to live with this kind of loneliness is NOT what you need to do with dysfunctional loneliness.
C I think existential loneliness is, it is not dysfunctional. In our best friendships, communities and marriages, there is some sharing that partially alleviates our born yearning for union that will never cease until we cease. I think marriage itself is a recognition that human beings as a natural good, seek to unite. So I think of us humans naturally impelled to want what DO has articulated wanting...to be in the best union with her husband. I want that too! I'm not material for parallel lives, no matter what I need to seek to release in myself and accept in my husband! Darn it, life is not just about being a self referential individual.
speaking for my own job of trying to grow up from my own lacks and dysfunctions, where I got all tangled up over loneliness was confusing dysfunctional loneliness with existential loneliness. They are two different breeds of species. One requires the work that you've advised on oneself, the other, the existential requires respect and acceptance that we will always try and yearn to live as one.
I do think it's my way forward to get off my hgh horse of judging and trying to get my grownup husband to do anything to solve MY problems. I also, paradoxically, think there's nothing wrong with seeking with him, and in healthy ways, to increase sharing in our marriage. After all, he's existentially alone, too, possessing the capability and the inbuilt yearning for union with me. People do.
Hi Now....
Submitted by c ur self on
(I do think, if the relationship, whatever shape it's in, is stable enough, meaning I guess, predictable enough from day to day, with no major alarms and harms from, say, erratic action due to substance addiction, thievery, or an abuse campaign going on, that you're right, C.)
I intentionally left out the *Alarms,* stuff like addictions and abuses...because every detail about a person and their living of life is part of the (Product) that must be dealt with on that side of the relationship....Two Healthy Products Plural = One Healthy Relationship Singular;)...
Just like the details of your own life when it comes to types and effects of loneliness.....(which I understand completely, maybe not in specifics, but in general, you and I have established we have much in common. To be 100% honest I can say without blinking it played a huge in role the way I went about the courtship, the time frames, and the fact I never considered not re-marrying after my first wife was received into Paradise.... But again that's just the things I personally (part of my Product) had, and have to dig out (go spelunking, lots of dark side tunnels in there, it's good to hear our own heart beat from time to time:), it's my reminder it's a gift, and I can do nothing within myself to keep it beating!) need to be aware of, and seek to correct....
Some times being the best we can be may not be good enough for the expectations placed by others...But that is OK, as long as I don't stop working on (The Product) myself, and just blame fate or worse, *others* for my plight in life....
And speaking just to you here in reference to community or lack of it... "loneliness"....I agree with much of what you say....Think about creation....Let us make man in our image...Our Image? Father, Son, Holy Spirit....Relational....The Woman..."The perfect help meat for Man"....Love you neighbor as yourself...Do I need my neighbor? I think So....Acts...The early church....House to House and had all things common....So are you correct?...I think so sweet lady:)....
Blessings
C
Existential Loneliness.......Is "Real" C
Submitted by kellyj on
C and NON,
When I caught what (NON) was saying....I have to agree with this too? There was a time I lived alone for almost 4 years a did not date of was any relationship with anyone in particular ( anyone special ) and just did my own thing? I thought at the time...I would just stay that way indefinitely...to avoid the problems of the past and thought I would be just fine? And for the most part....I was just fine and was perfectly happy? This was a very good exercise and way to let things just happen and come out of me as they did...and I didn't try and compensate for anything and just let me be me?
If there was any other time in my life...that I learned about myself ( and my ADHD behaviors )....this was the crucible I needed to do so. In essence....I had to live with me....by myself....alone. You could even call it a "walk about" ...or my 40 days in the desert alone....putting into Christian terms? And staying in that reference....I met the Devil and he tempted me and that Devil in this case was me? I went with all my temptations at will with no one there to stop me...and what I ended up seeing....was why I was so hard to live with? And when I was done with my personal "walk about" as put.....I learned exactly what it is that was a problem ...and I was able to see it clearly even if I had not before?
And eventually....I discovered that existential loneliness and came to terms with that as well? My T phrased this when I spoke to him about this saying...."We are not designed to live alone and be without others of our kind. We were made to be social creatures, and this is inherent to all Humans. It is not in our nature to live alone and be separate....and you are discovering this by doing what you're doing."
And he was right on the money...and I did do this and learned about this by doing exactly that? I am perfectly fine living alone...and being "lonely" in that respect...is not a problem I suffer from? But this existential kind of loneliness.....is absolutely normal and is not a dysfunction by any means but I wanted to add my two bits into this and give you my own conclusions about my experience and what I learned from it?
While it's perfectly normal and not a dysfunction at all ( as my T explained )...it is not anyone else's responsibility...to fill that spot or place inside you? What I found...that I did naturally in that situation I was in....was to seek out other people...but not with the intent on finding a new relationship or someone to fill that spot for me? I found I did many things to fill that spot and I got out there and did things with or around others who were not special to me in any way ( classes, activities....) but not in a "singles" sense if you put it that way? I wasn't looking for someone to fill that spot..,...I was looking for ways to fill that spot...and just being interactive and social with no designs of agenda....was exactly the way I did it? What I did was join the community....while still living alone by myself...and what I found was....some time doing that...and some time back being by myself....was the perfect balance I needed in order to do this? And when I did that...I was perfectly happy and was not lonely at all any more? I didn't need to have a special person or special relationship to fill that void......all I needed was to be part of the whole...and enjoy every ones company equally with no particular demands place on me....other than to just do the same for them..and fill the same need they had in the same way? It is such a natural thing to do...and so easy that there really are no demands placed on you in order to do this. As I just mentioned in my last comment.....the only thing you needed to join in like that....was Mutual Respect...and nothing more? Piece of cake...when you think about it?
The biggest thing I really found and saw at home...was how dysfunctional I was at organizing my environment and keeping a tidy house? That stood out like a sore thumb and I had no one else to blame? And to this day..and what was and still is....the main ADHD symptom that I am working on and was a problem that kind of rose to the surface and was easy to see? For me at least...and all the ADHD symptoms that go with me...it showed me exactly what I had done an excellent job in correcting....and the once I didn't which was what that experience taught me?
For the most part....emotional deregulation or regulation problems I have already figured out for the most part with some tweaking in there especially just not over reacting to hostility in my face? That one...my wife brought to light very clearly....but even with that...I learned how to deal with? For anyone with ADHD reading this.....I feel looking at my past....that all of these things are manageable...and even as hard as it is to do the parts that are left for me ( the hardest ones of course since the easy ones are not a problem for me to manage successfully ).....these last hold outs and ones I'm trying to address more than anything.....are just logistical ones...not emotional or behavioral once....which are less important in one respect...when the more important ones are dealt with which goes right into being part of a relationship....instead of being on the outside of it in respect to this?
And I see my wife...trying to accomplish what I accomplished...by doing it through me...which I know will not work....and she needs to deal with this and face this for herself...since no one ( as I learned ) can actually do that for you? Only you can deal with that aspect of the feeling of "loneliness" and that always has to do with other people?
To put this better......what I discovered was the difference between "lone -ness"...and "loneliness"...so it that's the issue ( lone-ness)...then that one is all on you in this case? That is not existential loneliness.......that is just not liking being alone ( with yourself ). Two different things that require two different solutions I think? Attaching yourself at the hip with another person...is not the way to fix this lone ness problem...if that's the problem? All that does is put undo pressure and responsibility on the other person to fill what is not there job or responsibility to fill...putting it that way? All that creates is a condition of co-dependence...and that is a dysfunction....and is not existential loneliness? Besides.....it's asking too much of anyone...to fill that spot since it's not theirs to fill?
J
Yes J it is real:)
Submitted by c ur self on
I think so many human's are trying to fill the void of existential loneliness w/ the fruit of Interpersonal loneliness....Which isn't fair to their spouses or partners....Because there is no capability in human kind to solve what is missing with in our Souls.....
C
(Hand wave)
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Hi, C
Yes, completely. I remembered well that you have made that distinction that you weren't talking about how to navigate a relation loaded with alarms. In fact I thought I put a signal in to you that I remembered that, but since I do these posts often on an Ipad, I can't see the whole thing, after I'm done, very easily.
That we all may be one. : )
I am heading over the border on a vacation with my family
Submitted by DependentOrigination on
So I won't have the time to make a reply to all these wonderful things I have been reading.
I have been doing a lot of thinking about all the things people have been saying and will compose a reply while I am away.
I too, have been doing a lot of work on my loneliness. Interestingly I am someone who has never struggled with fierce loneliness until this last four years. I enjoyed my solitude, and reached out to a community when I needed companionship.
There is an element of the loneliness that is unhealthy in me now. The loneliness that comes from a fear of abandonment and rejection. I am working hard to cut that out at the core.
I have a lot I want to say. A lot about the positions we have all taken with ourselves and with our partners. It will have to wait though. Have a fantastic weekend. I appreciate your thoughts and I will reply in full when I cross the border on Sunday.
Same with me, DO:
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
Same with me, DO:
"Interestingly I am someone who has never struggled with fierce loneliness until this last four years. I enjoyed my solitude, and reached out to a community when I needed companionship.
There is an element of the loneliness that is unhealthy in me now. The loneliness that comes from a fear of abandonment and rejection."
H and I dropped off our younger daughter at college on a Tuesday. I envisioned that once both children were out of the house, H and I could work on our marriage. This proved not possible given that he left that Thursday for a "temporary" job being his parents' caregiver, didn't initiate any communication with me when he was out of town, and filled his days not out of town with busy work so that we had almost zero time together at home. I was dreadfully lonely because I felt abandoned and rejected.
It quite honestly is the worst...
Submitted by DependentOrigination on
Isn't it? Thinking, that now is the time for me/us. Thinking that the loose ends are tied up, the distraction is out of the way, the project is complete, and now, and now... there is going to be TIME.
And then finding out, that actually, no, now isn't the time for me/us.
I still struggle with it, it is when I am at my most vulnerable. When I have endured, done my part, made myself healthy, and am ready for the homecoming, and it doesn't arrive. The worst. Dreadful pretty much nails it.
:)
Submitted by c ur self on
profite de tes vacances!...............disfruta tus vacaciones!
Agreed
Submitted by DependentOrigination on
I recognize the two types of loneliness in me and I am grateful that I am currently allowing myself to be in a stable enough place to do the work I need to do with both kinds of loneliness.
My question is, what is the work?
Is it more than what I am doing, which is mostly just thinking about the ways my relationships with men over the years have shaped who I am? Is it more than recognizing which actions and reactions are based out of love, and which are out of a deep insecurity?
And thank you for your support. I can't accept that my marriage is to be completely devoid of intimacy or sharing, otherwise, it simply is not a marriage. I think there is a middle way. Not getting everything I want, but ENOUGH, and not letting the ADHD win and both of us lose. That is all.
So... Nothing... I can't
Submitted by DependentOrigination on
That's a pretty sad answer. And too much for my tired mind to handle. I will read the books. I love books. And figure out what I want to do from there. Because I can't put that last line anywhere with any good grace or honesty. I have been alone too long. Done more than my fair share for too long. Yes, J, I am a victim. And I don't want that for my life anymore. So I don't know when, or if, or how this all will play out, but maybe I will grow the balls to ask for more for myself.
Support
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Support for you in whatever you do today, D.O. I cherish your honesty and spirit.
Now
Support
Submitted by kellyj on
It finally occurred to me....what the word support means in terms of this forum but possibly...only to me? Melissa mentioned this to me very early on and it did finally hit me exactly what this word means to me? "Feeling like....you are not alone." That is the description of the "feeling".....when you "feel you are not alone" meaning....you are not the only one who faces these issues and problems you face?
The reason I remembered this...was when I first discovered having ADHD myself? It made me feel like I was not alone. I was not the only one who had these challenges and struggles and that there was a reason for it ...and it wasn't just me?
And that right there...is what I truly do not understand? I honestly to the bottom of heart...do not understand why....hearing that you are not alone in the challenges you are having......and that there are many many people out there who face the same issues as you have.....how can that not make you feel like you are alone in this? Why would that not ( as I experienced myself ) make you feel better? That you are not alone? That you are not the only person in this world who has these issues? And then....not feel better about all of these things...since there is safety in numbers you might say and you also know that there are many others like you out there...and why wouldn't this make you feel a little better about it.....knowing that you are not...the only one?
Why? This is the only answer that I do not have ( or cannot understand for anyone else? )...only speaking for myself?
So at least for me as I saw the word and thought about that feeling I had.....I remembered the feeling....and it only felt good and was definitely....not bad?
J
Support = Comfort J.....You're not alone! :)
Submitted by c ur self on
J, You really don't have to look much farther than this forum to find proof to support (no pun intended) that, that you speak of....
A word of caution though....It can become a problem if I fall prey to believing or convincing myself because of the support, (not being alone) that's its OK to **justify my issues** LOL...Just because I go to a Liar's convention and party with all the other Liars??....Just saying:)....
C
LOL Good Call C........Yes
Submitted by kellyj on
My little epiphany I had was just that...a realization more than anything else? How to apply it is what you are saying and yes...I agree.
The Liar's convention was a funny analogy too...it immediately reminded me of fishing. Now there's a Liar's convention for you right there....a bunch of guys sitting around and telling Tall Tales of the fish they caught and how big they were? "It was SOOOOO BIG that......................." "How BIG was it???" LOL Like they say...."give a man a fish and he will eat for a day.....teach a man to fish...and he will sit in a boat and get drunk all day ( and tell Tall Tales and Lie like a dog!!! " To make the point:)
J
What a good question, J.....
Submitted by Zapp10 on
The "relief" in this forum.....FOR ME........was seeing that I WAS NOT crazy myself in my circumstances. That there were so many others. It gave me insight into what I could do instead of what I was doing.....which wasn't helping. I had hope for my H and I.The rollercoaster, the ups and downs, the emptiness...oh my. We all want that connection of mutual love and respect with our spouses. We want to be "seen" and "heard" in our most intimate relationship.......and that, to me, is where "feeling" alone comes in. Our very nature as humans is another human connection. We, here, are connected through words expressing who we are, what we need, what we see and it creates a bond.......but it lacks the physical seeing, hearing, touching that being present in each others presence brings. A kind look, a loving hug, a hand held in silence. MANY here, including myself, have said they talk to know one about their situation. How do you explain your confusion, pain, anger, frustration to ones who have no clue about Adhd in a marriage? No one wants to paint their spouse in a bad light.And all too often if you do step up and say one little thing.......it is laughed off as nothing or you're told you are too sensitive etc (which is the same thing you are hearing from your spouse). Human CONTACT (not to enable a pity party).....just someone looking at me with a look that says......I can see your pain, conflict and how much you love your spouse.
The aloneness I experience comes from just that. I will NEVER ever talk about my H's ADHD with anyone face to face. It did not turn this marriage upside down and inside out......his denial did.
And that's my 2 cents, J
Zapp So True in What You Said
Submitted by kellyj on
Insight is good for you...but it doesn't necessarily fix anything...but it does help with the "What" and "Why" question to help tell you what to do ( or not do ) ...or what you can expect.....( or not expect ) and this is really useful for me at least because it does narrow down the do's and don't better?
I just ran across a really great video on Avoidant Personality Disorder and right off the bat....I am not looking for yet...another "disorder" to add into what I am dealing with in my wife...but trying to understand the person I'm with and using the extreme example ( disorder ) which is actually only useful to help narrow things down better for me? It is the most common attachment style ( not disorder ) for those who have ADHD by the literature I have read? This is where I stand out a little here? I'm not this style myself and that makes it a problem for me. Saying...this is my problem with my wife...not my wife's problem in that respect? This video was a good one in that it was speaking to you as a person....being introduced to an avoidant personalty and explaining it in layman terms which again....was really good for me to hear so I now and better understand my wife and her needs in this area? I know it has a negative effect on me....and I know that in respect to my wife....she is experiencing the effect it has on here and me as well and this is why this is so useful? Understanding the different effects....why they are there...and what I can do about them myself..for myself which again...is not my wife's problem per se? Only...I wish she would do things about this herself for her....not me? I have to deal with my part of this and how it effects me on my own so I can identify the problem and all those "WHYS" that plague me so often in wanting to do something about it myself? For myself that is and any issues I have because it?
Since this thread is all about how to make you spouse ....NOT be your enemy.....if anyone reading this who is with an avoidant spouse....this video might give you an idea of how to do this? The What and the Why part.....and now....on to the HOW once you understand? It is what I am doing and seeking resolution for so without adding any more into this.....I found this an enlightening view of the problem said through a 3 party in a very compassionate and objective way? A great explanation if I do say so myself? ( keeping in mind this is stated about someone with "the disorder" or more extreme version the same thing? Same category....same symptoms....just more extreme for comparison? I hope that is enough of a disclaimer to say...don't jump to conclusions!!! But it is a good reference to get things in the ball park none the less?
FYI: My wife also has some of the disorganized attachment issues too but that is for another day? The disorgarnized version is different and even more problematic and I see my wife with a little of both and a combination of the two? And even with me to a much lessor degree.....I have had in my past...a bit of avoidant in there too...but predominantly not the main issues I have suffered from in my past? It is not a clear cut thing and can have many layers indeed? Mainly...I have found I start being more avoidant...when I'm with an avoidant person...but only when I start becoming that way by association with them? Otherwise....it is not my style....as they say!! LOL
https://youtu.be/kzQYWUOIle8
J
Hi Zapp.....2 cents worth?
Submitted by c ur self on
(The aloneness I experience comes from just that. I will NEVER ever talk about my H's ADHD with anyone face to face. It did not turn this marriage upside down and inside out......his denial did.)
I think about others...forum friends, personal friends and family who suffer with, and have been diagnosed with add/adhd.....And, all the work and awareness they put into never making an excuse for their behavior just because they have a fast mind....And it breaks my heart to see denial rob a life of the beauty of what their lives and relationships really could be....
We've discussed loneliness over the past few days....I can't think of anything that ends in a way that can so easily be predicted, as what happens to a person who grows old in a state of denial.
No matter what the issue....adhd, or any personality disorder unchecked and unmanaged....If a person has one leg, one arm, a deformed hand these things are all visible, there is no way not to accept it, and do the work to manage life with it....But when its a mind issue, many believe the lie that if we ignore it, everything will be OK? So we refuse to address it...But it doesn't go away...And it's definitely visible!! So slowly those who Love us, and are long suffering w/ us, who choose to live with us, they go away...If not in body, in heart and spirit....Denial is destructive....No relationship can survive it and be healthy...My 2 cents worth....
I know a person who in their mid 80's and has lived their whole life taking care of number one and pursuing a dysfunctional life style and in the process alienated most everyone (even their own children) they should have been close to....All of sudden they find themselves alone, and can't figure out why people aren't smothering them with their presents and calls etc....Still in denial! Still blind to the life they've lead....One of saddest thing I can think of to be so blind, so in darkness....I always thought Why? Why stay in this dark closet of denial....The door isn't locked, but, you have to reach out (be aware, and do the work) and turn the knob and push it open, No One can do it for you...No matter how much they Love You!
2 cents?? No, this truth you've come to realize about a life in denial, is quiet Priceless!
Hope you have a wonder weekend Zapp!
C
What is impossible for man; isn't a problem for the Father!
: ) Laissez rouler les bon temps (Let the good times roll)
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
We on this site sometimes shoot the breeze about what we think terms mean. What are the differences among
a) a pity party;
b) a vent;
c) a hatchet job in absentia;
d) a liar's convention (thank you for that one, C);
e) bringing a problem to others for help,
f) being able to learn from others reliable facts of their life taht help one put one's own life in context.
We will differ but OK, the way I use those words, what meanings they have in my head?
a) pity party is a group of people reinforcing themselves in the belief that they are poor, done-to innocent victims, and life is unfair and people persecute them. Have you noticed that we get an occasional drop by person logging on to this site to tell us we're in a pity party? Usually, the person doesn't stick around, to all appearances, to find out what has been going on offline in the person's life, but that's the usual m. o. on the internet now, or a usual m.o. Drop in, flame, critique, flee. Nevertheless, that's often the claim by these drive by shooters. Pity partying.
b) a vent: the person writing has no one to tell offline what happened. Out of loyalty to the spouse who did it, perhaps, keeps it unspoken off line. But it was a howler and the impact of whatever was done was big. There is some getting over shock, or grieving to be done. The person may have tried to tell people offline events that happen behind closed doors, or on Match, or whatever, and have been dismissed. So the blow out, describing the events and the feelings in the recipient get placed here. I don't think this is pity party material myself, unless the writer ritualizes, meaning repeats, and focuses on, "he/she did that to me again." But on the other hand, a series of vents concerning the same kind of behavior by a spouse/partner, can be a signal that the venter is really stuck, and doesn't know what to do different, to get out of the path of these repeated events, or to protect his/her feelings from it happening AGAIN. I tend to come back to a problem again and again in my mind if I'm stuck, not knowing what to do about it.
You'll have your definitions of these words. These are just how I use them to myself.
c) A hatchet job on someone in absentia. In my opinion, nobody reading online, no matter how much they read about someone who is not around the site, posting their own thoughts in their own words, feelings and own descriptions of their actions, can have any idea whether or not a long list of complaints about someone offline is a written hatchet job or not. A hatchet job, if someone wants to do one, is easier to do online than in RL And unfortunately, there is in the general online world, flaming, misrepresentation, etc etc. going on. I do get uneasy if someone's posts in a forum spend about 90% of the space describing the failures of someone offline who doesn't have a clue what's being said about him/her, without writing also being spent on the writer's contribution to trouble. But is it a hatchet job, cutting down someone, in their absence without their knowing it? Probably not, people are usually better intentioned than that, but I don't know, and I don't think I can know from reading what appears online. Where I feel like I'm safely closer to reading reality is if the writer is writing about herself or himself. "This happened to me." "This was my reaction to it." I figure the writer is the expert on describing impact, his or her own thoughts and feelings.
d) A liar's convention....who knows what's going on, completely, online. I'm not a specialist in liars. In RL, I end up usually having to take a long time, to be sure that I'm being lied to, or to be sure of any kind of behind the scenes maneuvering. So I'm not the best quick lie spotter in any circumstance.
The web is so convenient for doing airbrushy things like lying by omission (creating a false impression by listing what some offline HE or SHE said, but neglecting to tell us what YOU said or did right before that). I've been on this site awhile. Slowly, through stories of events taht people have told going on in their lives..here, I've begun understanding more about why some things are happening in my home. If this site were a liar's convention, I don't think I would have gotten that kind of help from it. To me, people often come online on this forum in RELIEF that they can tell the TRUTH, about what has been going on, and have the truth BELIEVED AS TRUTH. There's a very big issue, it seems to me, with ADHD in that some things that happen or are said, are not perceived at all, and some things that happen in these relations and are said, are rejected as having happened or having been said at all. There's a real problem with potential gaslighting in this kind of relation with ADHD in it somewhere in the relation. People need somewhere, to go, to say, this did happen to me. and be believed! This is the opposite of liars' convention stuff, as far as I'm concerned.
The one temptation that sometimes crops up on the forum, to say that the problems are ALL on the side of one of the partners, the other one (usually the writer) is the victim or squeaky clean, gets called out over and over again, usually politely and quietly.
Our forum motto for recent months could have been something like "Denial Divides" We do think about denial a lot.
So the forum hasn't been a liar's convention to me.
I haven't e) brought as many problems as I could to this forum for help, but I do occasionally bring one. f) where this forum has been truly a blessing is that reading the details of other people's lives over time....and I do think I've had to be on this board often and pay attention to the details of waht people want to say about their lives, their approaches, what didn't work out and what did better, like Zapp I've gotten very important....even critically important landscape into which I can put events that happen in my own life....and I'm still getting many surprises, even daily, about this kind of relation.
Thanks to you all.
NON....Your comments concerning Gas-lighting gave me a thought.
Submitted by c ur self on
I think so much that is offensive to us in our communication attempts are misunderstandings....And escalate from there....I personally think most gas-lighting in my marriage is unintentional, (in the beginning anyway) and happens when nether of us should be saying anything.....
If the ability to hear, (w/o distraction) follow along in conversation, (comprehend) and remember what was said (recall ability) is only present in at a low percentage, there is no way to avoid frustration's with most minds esp. fast minds....In my opinion.....
If I was going to put a percentage on the success rates for conversations started that took more than 1 minute to have, I would have to say 20%....(We have improved the past year) To get through without having to stop and repeat, or clarify or explain for understanding or even to let emotions and interruptions cease before finishing I don't remember many....Our normal conversation attempts or as such.....
So when you put a hair triggered adhd mind that is subject to outbursts w/o a thought (say it first, regret it later), Along with a Pride filled H who is stupid enough to think he can speak something to change the reality of the moment..lol... into all the real barrier's that already exist into our efforts to have calm communication.... WOW LOL......You get a lot of "You didn't say that you Liar!!!.... LOL....And of course I respond some times to this w/ her name you know I'm no liar...But at that moment and in that state of mind, I'm a liar!, and she would die rather than say I'm not....Now I can walk away or it will get as ugly as you can imagine...Once the switch is flipped it's no coming back for a while...Acceptance of Reality!
Yep, me and probably some of you, shouldn't think we are being intentionally gas-lighted, when the reality of our relationship is we have a very low ability to have a conversation in our best moments....
Did this make sense to anyone but, myself...:)
C
Good subject
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
C, I'm heading offline for a day or so, so just want to say that I'll read you well before I reply. I want to think about what you said bout the topic
One thing I had in mind when I mentioned gaslighting is that I think not only spouses of people with ADHD can, at the receiving end, be gaslit. (Does the past tense of "to gaslight" exist? ) I also think people ith ADHD can be gaslit. which brings up some of what I want to reread you writing about.
Hope you and those you love arent anywhere near those wildfires.
Gaslit? I think it would be Gaslighted....not sure?
Submitted by c ur self on
I agree with you, Gas Lighting can happen to anyone, especially people who or simple minded and trusting of the wrong people, or person.... Also dependent or emotionally distraught, the elderly or anyone who allows great influence on themselves by another human.
It pays to know yourself :)....The reason I think gaslighting is so dangerous in marriages where both partners have such different realities, (like adhd & non's) is the battle of wills and the non-acceptance that sadly goes on to often....When we don't agree to disagree there is always a pulling of the rope...And usually the emotionally strong will prevail...The biggest and best tool a gaslighter (manipulator) has to use against you is your love for them. When you love someone you are at your most vulnerable for abuse. A gaslighter will play on this by seeking to form you (manipulate) to what they feel best benefits them. When it's a spouse its very difficult to get away from the constant barrage of victim statements and dependent actions. It's sad to think there are people out there who does this intentionally to their life partner....What a piece of work to be married to....So Sad!
But saying that, I am still convinced that there is so much dysfunction in relationships where co-dependency, control and manipulation goes on, on a regular bases...That the participants aren't even aware of the damage (self-esteem, self-doubt, reputation and sanity) that is actually occurring. It's like a slow growing cancer....
I hope all this rain has put those fires out....I'm about 5 or 6 hours south in Alabama. we've had no rain for almost 3 months...But we finally got some rain ( a long w/ the storms) Monday and Wednesday...We are getting rain now and its suppose to rain off and on until Tuesday....I will take it....I've had seed and fertilizer in the ground for two weeks, I'm hoping my fields come up green soon!
C
Ironically C....Gas-Lighting Came Up Just the Other Day....
Submitted by kellyj on
...in a conversation I was having with my wife which was the very one I described where my wife got so upset about me ...."putting a video on"....without her "permission" first?
In fact...she was the one who brought it up ( from me accusing her of this so many times )....that when she said that she looked it up....she said that I do this too...with her....from where she was sitting? In other words....I was saying things that were making her question her reality....and that's what it felt like to her? The difference...or problem with what she was saying....was I don't use "Gas-lighting" as the method to get her to question her "reality". In fact.....what I have done in the past which might feel the same thing to her at the time...is "20 question"...and using a linear progression of "facts" or "logic"...in order to narrower here down but in what context am I doing this you might ask? It is in context to someone "Gas-Lighting" me in the ( symptom , response, response ) 2nd position? So what's the symptom? ( Denial and Gas-lighting as a defense maneuver or form of manipulation )..in order to avoid conflict, negotiation, compromise, and having to admit being ....."incorrect", "wrong" or have a different opinion about something....that you are going to "win" over the other person ...by doing so? In essence....they are avoiding.....having any discussion, debate, confrontation or any means to resolve this difference they are having with you...by doing this in a way...that gives you no other options or choice?
So in other words....it is a "stone walling" technique...more than anything else ...since at the end of it for them.....they don't have to concede, admit responsibility or fault...and can continue on with exactly what they are doing...and never have to negotiate with anyone and always get their way and done so playing these "games" instead of saying so up front? At the core...it is protecting them ( or used against you ) to protect themselves FROM you...the person who is a threat to them in some way which you are.....you are threatening the very beliefs they have about themselves...or what they want in that moment ( since you are saying "NO"....I don't agree? And maneuvering you away from logic.....because what they are doing is irrational or emotionally based and "logic" is the "enemy"...so to speak? If you can't argue with universal "truths" by saying the "sky is Green".....when almost anyone would agree that it is "Blue"...on a given cloudless day? Then if...that person....needs it to be "Green" instead...but part of them knows it's really "Blue" and not "Green"...or they fear they might be wrong and it really is "Blue" and that makes them question their sanity or "reality" since now.....they might be "wrong"? This is unacceptable to them...and I mean that literally? Part of them...."knows" that they are "wrong" and it's really "Blue"...and part of them "thinks" that it is "Green" and because that's what it looks like to them but they can't tell the difference themselves and they do not want to admit, concede, or be put into a position of ever having to say so or admit this? They are the ones who are confused or not sure....but in order to over power you the other person...and confound the issue ....as a defensive maneuver or to manipulate you...instead of just admitting they are unsure or possibly "wrong" ( and not get what they want in the end if they did that )...by never showing this weakness they have...and never allowing others to see this in them...in essence....they said the sky is Green because this what they think it looks like to them....and now you are questioning them...and making themselves ....."question their own reality which is completely different in respect to the fact....that everyone is saying "Blue"....but they think it "Green" and are completely ambivalent...as to which one is right...and which one is wrong.....since to them.....it looks Green...and now you're saying it's "Blue" instead? And that "feeling" they have is causing them to have a negative reaction and this is intolerable to bear inside? So in order not to feel...this horrible feeling of ambivalence they feel all the time....they try and control this...by controlling you ( or what is on the outside of them) in order to "correct" this problem they have? So in the "jist" of this situation....they are trying their best...not to feel something "bad" or negative and intolerable to them ( or so they don't feel like they are "crazy" )....by using a method "somewhat" with intention or awareness of this ( or not ) because it works to do this...and avoid doing what is intolerable for them to do? NEGOTIATE AND COMPROMISE...AND COME TO A RESOLUTION INSTEAD?
Which by design and the end result here...is to make "YOU" feel crazy or question your reality instead? The goal is to get what they want...by avoiding the stress or feelings they are feeling...and trying to manage it this way and putting it all back on you in order to manage their own ambivalence.....by making you "ambivalent" instead and getting rid of it that way instead...and putting it on you now ( tag your it ) so they won't have to feel it or "deal" with it?
That's the goal.....in Gas-Lighting? Not dealing with it....not having to feel it...and not getting resolution....but avoidance of "feelings". That is the goal.....for a Gas-Lighter in essence? Stay in denial.....don't look at what you don't want to admit....never conceding they are "wrong" or even implied.....and never resolving anything because to do so would mean....they would have to deal with it and they might lose? The might lose in a fair debate....where you are using logic and reason in order to do so to ..."win". They on the other hand....are avoiding "logic: and "reason" and anything rational....since they will "lose" automatically using that approach.....so the other approach as a method to stone wall you and never resolve anything....allows them to "win"....get what they want.....and not have to concede or negotiate with anyone ever which is exactly what they want so they win...and you lose....every time?
When my wife and I first started getting into heated arguments about our difference together...and this was especially important to me since something happened that either offended me or hurt my feelings ( or some form of disrespect to me ) that I felt was unfair or hypocritical in something my wife did or said....( or in what she wanted and the means she was using to get there?)..and this is where the gas-lighting comes into play? How can I say this better to put this into context?mmmmmmm???? LOL
If someone says the "sky is green"..and you are looking up and see that it's "Blue".....there could be any number of reasons why that is? Color blindness could be one reason for it? Some kind of condition in their eyes or visual perception processing disorder or dysfunction in the "eyes" themselves? Or...they think "green" is word for "blue" by definition only ( using the wrong word to describe "Blue"...and using "Green" instead ( just from being ignorant? perhaps? ) Or could be something else? But all you know...is when you look up to the sky in the middle of the day....and it looks "blue" to you ( and everyone else seems to be in agreement with this "fact" as we call it )....what more can you say? What are you going to do.....argue with this person and try and convince them otherwise? If they think it's green.....then what ever ....right? You don't need to argue with them....but you are not going to believe them or trust them in this case since....you pretty much know they are wrong...and something isn't quite right? So you let it go and no one is the wiser including them since...."Green" is not the word we know or use...for the color o the "Sky"....and EVERYONE is in agreement with this and so you know....that you are NOT WRONG in this case from everything you know? And you are sure of it without questioning this for a second? Right? At the same time....you have NO NEED...to make the other person see things different or prove to them that they are wrong? Most likely in this case which would be the case for me as well?
But now.....let's say you are unsure yourself? You're not really sure what you are seeing when you look up and see the sky since you have no other word to describe the "color" "Blue"? It could be...."Cyan" ( a sub category of "Blue" ) and the person saying the sky is "Cyan" is perfectly right even if they are not saying "Blue" since...."Cyan is Blue"....no matter what you say? With no word for "Blue" ( or primary color and the primary "word" )....you have nothing to compare the word "Cyan" too? "Cyan"..."Cobalt"...."Prussian".....could all be used and that's just a matter of personal opinion to which one you pick to compare to in order to determine the color of the sky? You say To-ma- TOE...and I say....Tom-A-toe....and it really doesn't matter because that's just your opinion in saying the "one right shade of Blue ) that the sky is? So who cares? In this case...it's no big deal anyway WHAT you call it...as long as it's not GREEN which is the only "wrong" answer a person could give in this example. Any shade of Blue you could pick...is not wrong...or even saying "Blue"...is not wrong.....but Green is wrong by any standard of measure or word you could use...unless something was horribly wrong with the sky? 100 years of artist renderings and paintings...could even verify this as true in the past as well and nothing anyone says it going to change this "fact of evidence" no matter what they say? But when someone Gas-Lights you...and insists that the sky is Green and YOUR the one who;s wrong.....they aren't using facts of evidence, logic or reason to "verify and validate" their position or argument as in a debate or any kind of intellectual process using "valid or legitimate arguments to their potion"....they are attempting to apply....feelings and emotions in an illogical way....that makes no sense...but the end result is that YOU...are now questioning your sanity....and are no longer sure.....the sky is Blue any more or maybe...they have convinced you that it is Green instead now? That's the end result of Gas-Lighting.....making the person question their own reality and what they know.....and using this technique or method in order to do so which is different...than just making someone "question" what they said or did....by "questioning them"....not making them "question themselves"....in putting this into perspective better?
The definition of Gas-Lighting.....is with the intention or ( an agenda ) in mind.....that makes a person ...question themselves and then question "their reality" or to make them "insane" as the definition goes? It implies the person is doing it on purpose.....to make you "insane" and that is the goal behind "Gar-Lighting"....as said? ( I don't think it's a conscious act myself personally but there is a goal none the less at the end of it for them and it does get them "something"...or they wouldn't do it? There has to be some kind of pay off or reward or then why would anyone use this method in the first place? ( aware of it or not? I say....unaware without saying "on purpose" or with that "intention" in mind? Their goal...is not to "Make YOU Crazy".....but it the by product or net result for you on the receiving end of it? I guess you could also say however....that this is not their concern...or something they spend too much time worrying about? The problem with this is....how it effects you negatively....is NOT their problem? "Caveat Emptor"...let the buyer beware? ( without this intention on their part or any real awareness of any damage or hurt they are causing as long as they get what they want from doing it...is all that matters to them?
In other words....in the definition as said....it refers to someone doing this "systematically" ( too you ) in order to change or alter your perception..and done so in a way that is somewhat "under handed" or "dishonest" to serve a purpose that only serves them to do so...and done in a way...that only "hurts" the other person in long run since it is done is a way that makes the other "question" themselves ( what they Know ) and their own "reality?". As said....it creates ..."Ambivalence"...or to "pause" mentally ( indecision ) since now there are "two" incongruent "terms" or thoughts or ideas that are in conflict with each other in a sort of "unsolvable" riddle or "mental puzzle"...without a solution for it? Puzzling...is a good word....at first?
What it creates is a no win situation as far as you are concerned but done in a way..... instead of stating so up front ( openly and becoming vulnerable to you )...the other person is trying to "win? or show you how you are "wrong"...and they are "right" and in a way way they takes "dominance" and "control"....and forces you to sublimate or to become submissive to this over powering effect it has on you ( power over you ) in a kind of "rock" , "paper", "scissors"...approach...instead of an open honest "debate" or "discussion"...by jumping on top first...and always staying one step ahead of you by taking unfair advantage of the conversation?
Remember the "Argument Clinic" in the Monty Python skit? "I already TOLD you!!"......"No you didn't??"....."yes I did!"....."No you DIDN'T!!!!"....."YES...I MOST CERTAINLY DID!!!!"......."NO YOU DID NOT!!!!!!!!"......."OH YES....I most certainly told you already and you are wrong!!!" When in fact....he never told him anything...but he got the upper hand and stayed on top? Top from the bottom...or Bottom from the Top? If you were to this in terms of "POSITION"...which is also used in a "sexual reference" as meaning to say...the person on the bottom..is the one In charge OR is in the dominant role..and the person on Top...is in the submissive role and is no longer in charge? So in terms of position and who's the BOSS here? A person with a sexual "fetish" as said...cannot have normal sex or have an orgasm....unless something is present ( from the outside...not inside of them in a physical dysfunction where nothing is wrong with their plumbing so to say ) but this person in this scenario..,..can't GET OFF....unless they are in this role...of being in the Bottom position.....but need to manipulate the scenario...where they are calling the shots in this sexual "role playing" game which if bac enough .....becomes a "fetish" in that....unless these conditions exist and the other person is playing this "game" along with them and becoming subservient or submissive to them even when ON TOP.....then this is called ...Bottom from the Top....or Top from the Bottom depending on "who's the Boss"...or ....who is "IN Charge?" In sexual role play...both people are in on the game as stated? In Gas-Lighting....is is taking unfair advantage of the fact that the person on the bottom...is manipulating you by controlling you and being the Boss.....when you are actually on Top of them...and they are "doing a change up on you" or "reversing this role"...and you might not even be playing?
Where's the Competition...in having sex I might add? Who wins in sex? The one who is dominant? That's not my experience with sex but....I won't get into this and try and change the subject to sex other than to say...that playing games if fine...as long as both now the rules and how to play? Otherwise....it's not fun for the other person...since they are being used at the hands of the other person..without a choice or to make the other person feel Powerful at the other person expense? Kind of like Rape....but now it's the submissive looking person Raping...the more powerful person by getting their kicks out of making the other person feel less powerful and getting "OFF on it"....which is just as perverted and forcible Rape...in that person is not doing it for the "sex"...they are doing it to get their "kicks"....putting it that way by possibly "emasculating" a male...from a female perspective? Emasculating for "kicks" or to "feel" powerful...is Rape...is you put it that way if the person being emasculated is not doing it by choice or is not enjoying this "game of manipulation" that is being played?
It's pretty absurd when you really get down to it? Like there is a winner in sex?...to see who has more power and who is on top and who is on bottom and who gets to be subservient and who is in control by "game this game of game playing" and "gamemanship?womaship?"...in that scenario.....( done secretively by the person doing it ...without the other persons awareness or choice so the other person feels powerful and so they can "get off".....so to speak? In a true fetish.....a person like this....HAS to do this to get off...or other wise...cannot have an orgasm without doing it which is the definition of a "fetish"....."without the ability otherwise".
I find this so ironic as well... what that person is doing...is trying to "Trump" you! LOL Literally!!!! LOL!!!!! And doing it in a way to convince you that you "must have been mistaken"....instead of "persuading you" and "influencing" you....in order for you to choose or decide which side or position you will take instead? So instead of using an "intellectual" process or exchange to debate your position....without this ability in themselves to do this in a rational way.......they are literally trying to "Trump" you....by playing this game of "Rock" , "Paper", "Scissors" with you without you realizing this is what they are doing?
It's like saying....."here, lets flip for it".....or......."here, instead of negotiating.....lets play verbal "Mumbly Peg" or lets have a "Duel".....in order to see who gets closer....me or you in a way to avoid "negotiation" completely.....and go right into a "challenge" without actually saying this is what you are doing...and further.....you are not letting the other person know...that a "challenge" has even been made? You on the receiving end of this "game".....don't even realize you are "playing" in other words....and they have the "upper hand" in this game...since it's "the way they play"...in the over all sense of Gas-Lighting being more of a symptom of something else as I said........but they use this one technique or method.....as just one part of the whole package of dominance and control over you and others...to get what they want and never have to compromise? To get what they want in order to side step....real "negotiations" and "debates"...by using this rather "under handed",and rather "diabolical" method which is a completely "dishonest" approach in order to "win"...and never be "wrong"?
It's primitive to say the least...and as you said C......."simple minded" which is how I see it too? A person who has no personal power...or has a lot of knowledge or integrity.....doesn't need to do this....which shows it self that way instead? Weak....is again...the operant word for the person doing this in this way and is not a sign of strength or power at all? Just the opposite.....but within the "pretense" or "persona"....they feel more powerful and feel more in control.....from their own lack of power and control of themselves by getting it from someone else instead? At the very least....it is a "Parasitic" relationship ( and kind of Barbaric) in relationship to "power taking" by any means available...through others weakness instead of strength in a more cowardly way on the part of the person doing it? Which would be better way to describe this kind of dynamic and all the components within it in order for it to work?
So as far as true Gas-Lighting someone....just because they make you question whether you are right or wrong....could many things for many reasons....but only one fits this definition in terms of making you question yourself...and the motivation, the mechanics, and the reasons behind it...which is what this definition...is really trying to describe? It's a very complex system of interactions....which are done "systematically"...and done with an intention or goal that is very specific...and related to everything I just said?
If I did a thorough job of explain this right? All these components...have to be present in this "systematic approach" that is doing it consistently over time and without interruption ...in order to make the other person question their "REALITY"...AND MAKE THEM THINK THEY ARE GOING CRAZY.......as said...to actually be specifically Gas-lighting...if I did a good job of explaining it in layman terms here? Hopefully I did....but i know that it's complicated? It is a SYSTEM.....none the less..and that is the operant word to use here to help identify it as something uniquely special and is not a generalized way of saying....making someone question themselves....if that's all that's happening?
So to say you are being Gas-lighted...because you feel like the other is making you crazy....or there are times you are questioning your won sanity...is not necessarily Gas-Lighting by definition? That could be any number of things...including you just not being aware, naive or just don't know much yourself ( and are ignorant? ) Those things could cause that to happen...and the best way not to be Gas-Lighted yourself? Get with the program..and keep your "eye" on the ball and pay attention to what is happening ..and how these conditions either show themselves or not....by being able to recognize the difference, know what you are seeing...and now the rules of the game...and even if....a game if being played in the first place? That's how no one will be able to Gas_Light you...even if they tried?
And again...ironically speaking....the other night when my wife tried to convince me that I need to get permission to show her a video? Guess what video I was trying to show her? Monty Pythons Argument Clinic...since she had looked up Gas-Lighting ( since I had accused her with doing this which she was when she did it to me since I recognized what she was doing and was calling her out on it ) and she ( not me ) brought it up..and told me I "Gas-Light her and as read the description ( from the dictionary ) as said...."YOU DO THAT too!!"
Nice try "Buck Wheat".....let's try that again? LOL She smelled something she didn't want to smell...and that was showing her an example of doing what she does ( and accusing me of doing what she does....which she has no idea what any of what I just said even means....by looking it up in the dictionary and saying....."You do that"....when in reality...she has no idea what she is talking about but the point...is not to be right or correct or accurate? The "point"...was to control me and make me question what I know...and attempting once again....to see what she did not want to see by making up something in the moment like that and saying "Well....in an intimate relationship with two people....the polite thing to do is to always ask first before you do anything like that? " literally ...making this shit up as she goes...and presenting it as if....this was some new rule of etiquette...that I had never heard of before or one that EVERYONE knows?
Like I said...."People?? OR YOU?????" ( in this case) Who's this WE again? You got a turd in your pocket? ( Buck Wheat?? LOL ) Nice try...is all I have to say? If you are going to play this game....you've got to know how it's played because there really are no "rules" so to speak....but you need to recognize it and know how and why it's done to actually see and then stop it in it's tracks? As I yelled "STOP!!!!" And put my hand up? And she tried it again...and I said "STOP"......" which is when she stormed out because the game was over and she wasn't going to win?
J
and she didn't want to see it? 10/4....Rodger that....and OUT. lol And in order to control this....she TRIED.....to convince me....that an adult...needs permission from another adult....to show a video as if.....what I did was wrong? Right...I mean "WRONG!!!" There you go......Gas-Lighting....to prevent a video showing her what she was doing wrong...in this case?
Intentional Gaslighting
Submitted by DependentOrigination on
The first time I heard about gaslighting, was on this forum. And then I started reading about it, because my own interpretation of reality, and my husband's interpretation of reality were SO different, that I thought he was gaslighting me. I was definitely insecure, confused, uncertain, lost, hopeless, defeated... etc.
But now that I have had a few months, with the reality of what is really going on (ADHD) and the experiential knowledge gained from you wonderful people, I have realized, that he is definitely not intentionally gaslighting me.
Knowing that he has ADHD has allowed me to depersonalize a lot of his behaviours and has actually helped explain why his words and his intentions as they are spoken are so different from his reality as it is lived. He has every intention of being the world's best spouse, and sometimes he can even see that he is failing, but most of the time his ADHD gets in the way.
And I have regained most of my confidence, security, independence, happiness, etc. despite the fact that he hasn't changed, much (he definitely has made moves towards me, but they definitely aren't as dramatic as me regaining control over myself).
Its a good pick up though, this whole, intentional, unintentional gaslighting thing.
Unintentional gaslighting
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Two days away and I've got a lot to catch up on!
Well, to this post, DependentOrigination.... I don't think my husband intentionally gaslights me, meaning wants to create or cover a falsehood, when he and I have such different takes on what just happened, or what was said. It helps to trust that he's doing something other than deliberately playing a game on my head. Mine truly has a qkind heart.
That still leaves us some times in which whatever we observed...or thought we observed....or noticed in what was observable, is so discrepant that we're stymied in finding common ground about it.
The real heartbreaker for me in past moments...I grieved so bad, were moments in which he insisted that I meant him harm, and what he was observing really, was something inside of him....he'd have to tell me more...maybe it was his old pain, from before me. I didnt know that for a long while
, tha there want outside stimulus, except in the slimmest sense, some word or phrase that he built a castle from,At this point in my life, I'm always ready to think that I may have missed something, so my guess or bet is off, but I do not undercut what I know in myself to be true about myself, so he just couldnt convince me I meant him ill if I didn't mean him ill, but that still left me the grieving to do that someone who I loved had it in his mind, and so I believed it was in his mind, that I meant him harm. I believed that that was what he perceived and I knew my heart was not what his mind told him it was. Life has joys and griefs from time to time.
I've done a lot of thinking about these moments. In a way, although I seem nearly always to have a better detailed attention to a field of detail than he does....he's a focuser, not a field attention guy...in the physical domain., and I've got a different use of retention in memory than he does, that's for sure,.I still think regardless of the physical fact that I heard or noticed something that he didnt because he was elsewhere in his attention, that it still seems to flummox him about like it flummoxes me, when there's a claim of something that exists (or not) that he cant corroborate.
That's why I wrote that people with ADHD can be as alarmed and startled and disoriented by the end result, being jolted out of confidence that they know what's going on, as non partners, to whom their ADHD partners swear on a stack of Bibles, get pissed and refuse to budge that reality is other than what the non said, heard, did or intended. Yes, I believe that he's not intending to harm me. at all.
...OK, on to more catching up with other posts
I think so much about the need for trust and, yes, I agree with C, acceptance in these relations. I was in agony until my husband began to trust me more. Which means I need to keep working on being straightforward with him and kind. It's like little tendrils sprouting...
Now
Little Tendrils
Submitted by DependentOrigination on
I remember being in a severe depression two years ago, having lost all light and color and joy in the world around me. My psychologist, started asking me questions about the good things in my life. And the same thing happened, little neurons in my brain started firing, trying to find their way back to the happiness and the light, reaching out desperately.
I guess the somewhat good thing about having played the non-ADHD spouse to the extreme for the last couple of years is that I have kept him on the defensive. It would break my heart if my husband didn't trust me or perceived that I caused him harm. Well more harm than yelling and throwing things for two years did. There is a lot of value in being someone worthy of trust. I hope your husband finds his way out of the dark. Thank you for your thoughts.
Thank you, sweetie pie
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
My husband is finding his way forward regarding trusting. We needed more active trust, as a foundation for tackling other things.
I've had more life experience in different intimate relations than he has. He has been in just one other one, a very long one, in which a lot of harmful things were done to him. Due to his ADHD, he was a sitting duck for some of the past intentional mistreatment of him.
He's my man. I love him.
A Quick Look Back.....Feb 5th Monday, Day After the Super Bowl.
Submitted by kellyj on
Since I just had my great revelation and all the "light bulbs went on"......now in hind sight....this discussion on "gaslighting" ...."intentional or not"......"Trust".....and "doing harm".....all comes into better perspective with a complete contextual story to go with it? As it "did not registered or appear to me then.........the day I wrote this...my wife was "with"....the person who mattered to her most..and that was not "me"....at the time I wrote this? I was just too naive and trusting and too easily deceived I guess. Gaslighting....( being "gaslit" lol....is very effective....in making you think....your's the one who's crazy and doesn't know what you're talking about or "what you are seeing"???? Especially when you see "things" that don't make any sense or don't...."add up". I'd already learned not to ask or to question.....all it lead to was a fight...and ..."I don't want to talk about it." Well duh........now I know why? LOL ( Duh........ lol ) With intention.....definitely.
J
You are the fortunate one.....
Submitted by c ur self on
I'll take naive and trusting over the hiding, lying and guilt any day!
C
I agree with C
Submitted by Chevron on
I dont think it is naive to begin a relationship like marriage, trusting the other person and trusting oneself
I think it's the only way to begin a relation that has a chance of going the distance.
I've read eveything you have written in the last couple days, J. You're doing important processing. I do continue to be concerned that you're in unbroken solitude as you investigate things online and seek understanding. Yes, do take care of your financial wellbeing. A sad passing comment: if she was never with you, at the level of not being with you that you are considering in the last couple of days....she never abandoned you. Which doesnt mean that you're not sad or having to take stock. Take care not to be in uninterrupted solitude as you consider and think. Treat it like a marathon or half marathon and take a break and hear someone else's voice now and then. I mean in RL. That from someone who has spent a fair amount of life so far in silence. Take care, bro.
Chevron.....What Poeple Say, Big Lie
Submitted by kellyj on
A sad passing comment: if she was never with you, at the level of not being with you that you are considering in the last couple of days....she never abandoned you. That's it right there. It does knock the wind out of you though when you come to realize that everything she said was basically a lie. There was an "agenda" that was kept from me the entire time. Secret life......lots of secrets. I hear you......it's just taken me "a back" and having to process all this new information and rework my entire thinking about this all and taking the time to do it. I was a wreck to the point that I couldn't even move when I really started to see just how deep and just how wide spread the rabbit hole really goes.
But if I had my suspicians about D at all as far as my own well being is concerned......the list of people she is associated with now....scares the holy shit out me. There are some highly unsavory profiles popping up and her "friend" is as "fishy" as a carcass that has been washed up on the beach and rotting in the sun for 3 days. Something "stinks"....to high heaven and I'm not really comfortable yet...until I get all the information back to see what it says. I've got some "inside help" in friends from the past in Law Enforcement and one PI ( private investigator ) that I've called on for some help. That way....I'm not spending any time or wasting time worrying and letting the "professionals" give me advise in how I might approach this situation. The one ( a fomer narcotics under cover agent for 25 years ) is the real "Serpico" RL. I've known him since college and he is not someone....I would want to mess with. ( nooooooooo lol ) He's a US Federal Marshall now....and he is basically a "hired gun" and has "no jurisdiction". If it's on US soil.....the only person he answers to is Donald Trump. His job right now and all he does....."is arrest people". He does nothing else. When law enforcement finds out where the "bad guys are"...they call him and goes in and does the dirty work. Kicking down doors, gun battles and shoot outs.....and making the "pinch"....as he calls it. As he says "I love the pinch"....or "making the collar". He lives for it.....it's all he does. Give him a reason....and he's one person you don't want to see knocking on your door. He doesn't knock.....he kicks it in with a gun aimed at you.....not someone you want to be on the "wrong side of"......as a friend, he's the greatest guy you'd ever want to meet. And he Loves to ride motorcycles too....we are very much alike and when it comes to "undercover work" and "knowing how these people opeerate"....he is "one step ahead of them".........with almost 30 years as a detective, I can think of no better person to go to for advise and he's got some...that is not written down in any books.
And he doesn't like liars, cheats and thieves or people who take advantage of others and use them for their own means. He's been arresting people like this ( and had them shoot at him...with real bullets ) so long...he has no pateince for these kinds of things....he's a "git er done" kind of guy....the kind of guy "I like"...and the best person I can think of....to have in my corner. I just need to get back some info from him that he can "take a look at".....in his way....using "his resources".....which, there are "no better ones" I can think of if you consider the source and who is boss is? He's the "guy"....who you call, when you need something "done". I'll get a better idea of who and what is going on with these people...when I get his opinion..and he tells me who I should or should not be worred about...along with his recomendation. For safety sake.......( and your own well being )....this is not someone you want to be on the wrong side of.....he can do things, you never thought possible or at least....I didn't until he told ,me. We'll see what he comes up with.....I just had to get all the data too him first he won't do that part....that part is up to me and I think I got most of it too him but there were a couple of items that needed clearance and expertise that I just don't have. I'm waiting on the results which should really tell me just how much I am right...and tell me..."for sure'...what it is I'm seeing along with that "someone else voice" and a "real opinion" on a "master of deception". Anyone who can pretend to be and infiltrate and entire organization of "drug dealers" and "traffickers"...and become one of them without them knowing it.....is going to be better than anyone I know...in telling me...."what he see's". If you want to understand "deception" and the art of doing it.....'go to a master"....and undercover Narcotics detective....might be the "pinnacle" of someone who does that better than anyone. To take on a "persona" so well....that it even fools the "crooks". If you want the best....go to the source. I'm waiting to see what he says and what he comes up with...from there, I will be taking his recommendation since ...he's see it all and then some. If needed....he makes house calls. If you know what I mean. LOL It got the attention of someone doing something like this before...and if there are any warrants or records that I don't know about.......I soon will...so we shall see. He'll decipher that "stink" in a hurry and let me know what he finds so I won't have to do any more leg work for him.....he can take it from there but he requires the "names" first.
It's just knocked the wind out of me...;that's all. I'll be fine, I'm getting the right kind of help I need and making sure there are no "bad guys" lurking or aiming to cause trouble for me. The list itself.....does not bode well for these people in respect to "who they really are". That is really what I'm waiting to see,......compared to "what I was told.". Can't think of anyone better...and like I said....he'll make house calls if needed. It's what he does for a living. That way, I'm out of the loop and I can let the "pro's" handle it...and I can worry about other things which I am in the process of as we speak. The problem is that I told D exactly what my plans are and how I am doing it...but she didn't listen...or understand what I was talking about. Or maybe she did? We'll soon find out won't we? I let you know what come back once I get more information. It might take a little bit of time, to get all the info back from these people and see what they have to say. I told D as a warning....she's barking up the wrong tree with me...if "her agents" or "her friends agents" have anything in mind and this is exactly "who" I will call if needed....he's just a phone call away, at any given time and he doesn't need permission....he can basically go anywhere, and do anything he wants....any time he wants. He has no jurisdiction and why he's the guy...."other law enforcement people call"...when they got a problem that needs to be "fixed". I think it's why I like him so much.....he's a "fixer"...just like me. "Get er done"...."in and out," before you can say Jack Robinson....and you'll never see him coming....as he says, "I Love the pinch". All he needs to see is a reason to legitimize his visit or to dig up anything on anybody if they are violating any federal laws. ( of any kind ) If he sees anything like this to give him cause.....he can act on it.....on his own accord .......as long as it shows itself as "probable cause". Home land securities "definition" of that since 9 /11 for Federal Law Enforcement has broadened immensely ........Since then , their ability to "detain and investigate"at the slightest provocation or circumstantial evidence allows them much greater flexibility and latitude than there has ever been before.
We'll see?
J
J
Submitted by c ur self on
Hopefully D isn't reading these posts....
You said it well,NoN..
Submitted by Zapp10 on
I appreciate this post.....and I want to mention.......I have said before that I have not put moments that have transpired with my H that are what I consider "really bad" on his part....because then I would have to give equal time( in fairness) to ALL my( out for blood) "bad" times with him. Learning to do "better" at this has helped tremendously. I am ever so grateful for the diligent posters here.....
By the way..I don't think it was me who said that....BUT I LIKE IT!!!! I get so confused sometimes with who said what myself I had to put a notebook next to me to make notes!
Different Languages and Intentions Too.....NON
Submitted by kellyj on
I was thinking about what you said here...and I was thinking about what C said as well in his comment saying.... "A word of caution though....It can become a problem if I fall prey to believing or convincing myself because of the support, (not being alone) that's its OK to **justify my issues** LOL...Just because I go to a Liar's convention and party with all the other Liars??....Just saying:)....
And with no offense taken....I can say this here as means to add to what you said? Here are some terms and definitions to add to you list in a way of determining the content of what someone writes here on this forum?
STATING: Intention is everything? ( and how do you know that though? ) Context is everything too....( in which context are they speaking from? Theirs or your's and how do you know that? )
1) The language being used?
If it's victim language....then that person is probably doing the "pity party" thing but maybe as you said....they are a victim to something and are being abused or are in that state of mind? It shows in the language...that's how I can tell sometimes but it's just a "sense" I get from the language in context.
If it's angry...is may be a vent in part ( as I do ) and it may be part vent..and part just trying to process things which many times is what I am doing? But as I have said in that past...I try and include something of value for anyone reading what I write...that might be of use for them even if I am serving myself by using this forum to vent? You mentioned this in venting that possibly.....these things are not being said at home and there is no place to go with them to get it out of your system...and not hold onto it in an effort to let it go? That would be me most of the time?
Or it might be a cry for help without stating this is what they are doing?
Or it might be anything and everything in between...but without the actual context of what is really going on at home.....no one knows and sometimes...not even the person writing here?
Check....all the above?
But back to intention? And without context exactly to what is really going on at home ( with anyone ) and without the other persons input there to see the other side.....this appears to me as given....any time anyone says anything about their spouse online and that just goes with the territory? So what does anyone have to go off of? Only what your read from the witness of the person writing things from their own perspective? So in terms of context....without the proper context....all that is left is a persons perspective which means.....no one can be sure of the exact facts of the situation...since 1 /2 the story is missing? The other 1 / 2....almost always with a couple of exceptions one being with Liz and Tom who have come forth and stated this and had visible exchanges in this way together....otherwise....I remember only one other time ( in my recollection ) where a spouse posed as someone else...in order to refute what they're partner was saying....and their partner caught on to it...and called them out on it? That was done surreptitiously and not open and honest about it? Why? Who knows frankly and I don't think anyone will ever know what that person was thinking because we just don't? All any of us can do is speculate and run off of assumption based on themselves and their own personal situation?
So in adding to what you are saying here.,......there is an intention...but if not spoken directly in every case....we have to guess?
And there is a context behind the intention at home.....that none of us really now for sure without hearing both sides.....which ...we don't know that either? So we don't know that and we are just guessing again and speculating off of assumption?
But we do have "language"....and "reading in between the lines" based on the language being used? We do have that to work from with anyone as they write? And language can tell you a great deal...if you know..."which language you are hearing ...which from that much...we can deduct a lot of information...without speculating an assuming? Language tells a great deal...but knowing "which one is being used" is also something you must be able to recognize? For the most part...all we can do is get a "sense"...of what is being said as far as the context, the intention or even the position or place a person is speaking from which are all just from these clues we are given..in order to form an understanding of what is being said...in the context of what is being said...but without the other context needed in order to do this properly? So in order not to be lead to conclusions and keeping an open mind and not to "assume" anything? You have to interpret a little, you have to read in between the lines a little...and not go off of face value alone if you are going to get a very complete working model or picture to work from in order to respond or say anything well? That's a little bit of a catch 22 right there with some pit falls to look out for but saying.....you can't please everyone all the time anyway...so why even try then if that's the case? It depends on your "purpose" of being here..and what the intention is behind that purpose?
But....I will say what I see very often from my perspective? Is drawing conclusions and this is what I try very hard not to do here...or with my wife as well? This gets tricky in that...if you are only to take someone at face value only....it will lead you right to "one conclusion"...with nothing else to go off of? That's the danger in "face value" only...is it leads to conclusions?
Going back to what C said as to my response about the word "Support"? As stated.....I said that I realized for myself...what support meant to me? It was a "feeling"...of not being alone in that there are many others here who are dealing with similar ( if not exactly the same issues )...but like I said....no one really knows the full story and only hearing 1 / 2 the story since the other 1 / 2 is not present...so this is just this persons expressions, venting, anger, sadness, frustrations and heart ache coming out? Or they wouldn't be here would they? And since that appear obvious....then this is all we have to work from....like I said?
The other thing (and this one I get really frustrated with my wife in that )....there are things called "statement"....which are just that ..."a statement"
Then there are "opinions"...which are just that.....an "opinion"
And then there are expressions.....which are just that...."an expression"
And then there are "references"...which are just that...."a reference"
And there are "condolences...as in sympathy"
And there are "remarks"...."greetings"....."salutations".... "assertions"......."assumptions and speculations"...."rhetoric" or "rhetorical statements or references or questions and even questioning..as in doubt? Which is all included in language...and provide the reader with the context needed to give more information that is already given in order to understand anything...if you put it that way?
The one thing that is missing here and what I find difficult....are statements including "conclusions" since there is no way to form one properly at all...in anything that is ever being said here no matter who says it?
And the only way to know the difference...are to use "qualifiers" as a means to separate this all out? Qualifiers are in essence...the "legislators" or what make anything said actually "legitimate"...so without the qualifiers there in order to do this....we are all back to square one ...in figuring out what is legitimate or not?
So on any given day....the stated purpose ( or not), the stated intention ( or not ), the state or positions as stated ( or not ) , and even the context given ( or not ) will change in what is being said and the qualifiers can bridge the gap here as long as they are offered or being used?
So in light of how C responded to me in my comment for example ( not trying to single you out C...just showing you what I got out of your comment which had my name on it..and was directed at me for a start...which made a statement which stated.......Support = Comfort (J)....You are Not Alone
So going back to what I was saying....C said " support to me is comfort...and you are not alone? This was a little confusing only that he was giving his opinion in what Support meant to him...and applying what I said and combining these two things? Which is fine and I got that....but not necessarily what I was thinking or saying either? The concept of comfort as a means to support in not how I want to be supported? That feeling better...or feeling good about not being alone...is not necessarily "comforting" as I apply what how I "feel" in the word support as I was saying it?In what I said....comfort wasn't the actual "feeling" I was trying to describe so for C...."comfort" is included....and he included it in his statement but not always the case for me? As I would reword this...I am not coming here to be comforted..and that doesn't apply to suport and "not feeling alone" which goes back to ...not the feelings of "lone ness"....but not feeling "lonely within my struggles" and that I am alone in them by myself? That can be comforting....but sometimes I want feedback, resolution and finding an answer to a problem ie: to problem solve a problem so I can get to a resolution which by that route...what I am really after is a conclusion that I don't have as of yet? Which I got clearly and message understood...was that how C saw support = comfort...and how I see "support" as far as comfort goes....is not exactly the same in that respect to that showed me where our needs and wants are different in that respect...just from this simple statement that support = comfort...as in comforting....soothing....calming....relaxing? Perhaps? My version of comfort....does not include those things necessarily in the purpose and stated intention in which I come here many times? In essence....it's not what I want...and it;'s not what I am after....bottom line? What I am after is resolution to a problem...and to find an answer for it? So comfort doesn't really fit in that for me.....but "support" still does?
but then the next thing C said to me...came out kind of funny? A causation ( for me in context ) but stated as one he has to do himself? That was confusing since at face value it read....."I" and "myself" in the first person.....but aimed at me as an accusation of *** justify my issues****and then making the liars convention analogy to put that into context better?
And so...at face value....he is saying I find I have to watch out for this.....but also saying....I should watch out for this...which was leading to or pointing at me in doing this very thing? It was sending a mixed message that required me to stop and reread this...and try and evaluate what he said and how that applies to me? I thought about this more and when applying my purpose, my stated intention and any qualifiers I include into anything I say......I am not drawing conclusions, trying my best not to make too many assumptions...and am not here for comfort as my means for supporting me in finding resolution and answers and getting the feedback I need in order to do so? In fact....I wasn't sure if he was making this caution for me here? Or was he making this caution for me at home? That was very confusing so I let that one go and moved on the analogy instead?
In context......"justification" would be me implying that I am doing nothing wrong...and I am trying to validate my actions with my wife by not including my part or what part I'm doing wrong....by only saying what she is doing and not me in everything I say? By implication and assumption only...not at face value? I don't always use the right or correct qualifiers....and that can make the difference...but mostly....I try and include my intentions, stated purpose and those qualifiers as often as possible to put thing in there proper perspective and context as often as I can?
The one time this really stood out...and I remember it without even looking back to see it....was the time I came home distraught from vacation...and was so angry I couldn't even sleep. I remember this so well...that I remember pretty much what I said? ( I'll go back to see it now...after I said that? ) But some where I did mention...that this was Possibly the first true VENT I had made...and I stated this up front on openly? And then I stated my position, gave facts of evidence...and proceeded to do a "hatched job" on my wife and her brother...by venting away and just spewing openly...as stated by my purpose and intention right off the bat? In each step in the process....I was giving verifying with ( facts of evidence ...undisputable facts in fact )....and legitimizing my position...to put this into context as if...anyone reading and understanding these qualifiers...would be on the same page more of less...but, I was only doing that so I didn't come off as completely hateful by saying so up front and stating my purpose in doing so with as much information as necessary.
In essence to a pure vent ( as stated ) this was a release of all my negative thoughts and feelings and doing so in the way that I did it? It wasn't to provide support or comfort for anyone else per se....only in exactly what I said and how I said it.....for someone reading it....they would not feel they are the only ones who run into this troubling times and frustrations with a person doing what my wife did ( TO ME) yes...in that one case....my wife DID something to me and did not support me in any way shape or form but I needed it...and I didn't get it...from anyone who was there which pretty much took a lot away from my enjoyment...of the one real vacation that I had this entire year?
Here is is again...as I went back and copied it? Now in context...once again with all those qualifiers I used in my effort for understanding?
I have a story to tell but I'm not sure how to tell it? If I tell it from the ADHD perspective...it will sound as if I am making myself out to be the hero of my own story and that's not why I sharing my experience. Right now I'm exhausted, frustrated and angry. This is a cry for help and I'm the worst at asking for it. I apologize up front for my inability to do this correctly. Underneath those surface emotions...and I feel deeply hurt and troubled and fair amount of of resentment for so many reasons I don't know where or how to begin. Right now....I cannot seem to see my way outside of what just happened over the last 4 days away on vacation with my wife, her brother and some friends that invited themselves along to join us (so they said ) but actually did a hit and run on us that threw a bizarre twist into this story that has me scratching my head and at the same time....seeing my wife as a person that I cannot say I have much respect for what so ever...but even deeper than that....I cannot see any Love in her what so ever for me. I feel nothing inside but emptiness or I have no fond feelings what so ever for my wife at this moment in time. What ever feelings I was feeling for her before this time...have effectively died and I'm not seeing a lot of hope in them ever returning this time. What ever I end up feeling towards her after this last excursion....will never be what they were before we left.
What I just witnessed over the last few days was so appalling to me I really don't have much good things to say here . I'm sorry for that up front as well. The treatment I received from my wife has taken me aback to a point of taking serious inventory or how I might proceed from here on out it's that bad. At this point in time....I am choosing to remain silent and stay that way as I feel my wife deserved nothing on my account for anything she might say or need from me in the future. I feel the last few days with my wife has only proven to open my eyes to the true person that I believe my wife really is at the heart. Black and self serving with no regard for me what so ever. These as just my feelings at the moment. I'm not sure how I will feel once my wife has anything to say IF...and when...she says anything.
And then both you and C made a bunch of comments on this to which is when you pointed out "writing to think"...of ....."thinking to write"...which was really helpful in order to help me see "what and why" I say things or write things at times?
But after all that conversation...and everything I said....one comment came in after the fact which stated this to me which is poignant in exactly the same thing I am trying to bring attention to here just as means to illustrate what I am saying?
As said...
This is a hard one to finish. Just the way this reads, it sounds a lot like my husband. He has ADHD, which is untreated, and some mutual friends and I are starting to suspect he might have BPD as well.
So, what I'm going to say, I'm saying from a place of direct honesty based only on my personal experiences and a response to what I read here. I don't mean to attack you, but I am a direct person who doesn't see the point in sugar coating and white lies. I also know that things that feel brutal when heard can sometimes reveal a truth we didn't want to hear.
Anyway, my husband subscribes to the "always right, and always the victim" mentality that comes across in what you have written here.
So here I am....stating my intention, my purpose and including everything that I was feeling into context to gain some understanding....and this person accuses me directly of possibly being Borderline like her husband only because her and her friends think so ( just a personal unprofessional opinion which is about as valid or legitimate to next to nothing in reality.... with that being her only reference or qualification given to legitimize anything she said?....and is comparing what it sounds like to her UNTREATED ADHD husband...land applying to me now? like her husband....and is now assuming that I am...and talking down to me as much in saying that she thinks I am one too by the sound of it...and I know it's hard to hear the truth??
To continue on in what she said "The way you write about how your wife shuts down is exactly what I used to do when I would throw in the towel and realize nothing I do or say matters to my husband and at this point, he has decided for me my feelings and intentions. This reads in the same way. I mean, you literally outlined at the start of this why you are the better, smarter person and "here's proof." Also, in several places, you were reading other people's minds and emotions, which is a superpower if you can do that. I wouldn't be surprised if your wife feels like you're condescending to her, and the way you write about her is with no love. That has to bleed into your daily interactions with her. I hope you and your wife can get therapy together. No one is perfect and if anything is glaring in this lengthy report, it sounds like boundaries were crossed and communications failed. Also, I think the most happily married people know the first rule to a happy marriage is to get over your pride.
So now in context? Who was being condescending and accusatory here and making assumptions and drawing conclusions? Me or her? Did she read the qualifiers and read the intro? Did she believe me? NO...she assumed and drew conclusions and skipped over the parts she selected as irrelevant and went on to say that I needed to let go of my pride? Did it matter what I said...or only what she selectively heard since the conclusion had already been formed and she assumed the opposite of everything I was saying as being me...not my wife...by projecting and putting it back on me?
Basically.....with the command of the English language that I do possess...,..she was saying...I don't believe you...it really you here that's the problem not your wife....and I know this since this sounds like my husband and it's your pride getting in the way here since you sound like and untreated person with ADHD and possibly Borderline since my friends and I think my husband is Borderline...but said with no verifying evidence or qualifications to refute my feelings in this case? They were just my feelings ans thoughts in a dire time or crisis you might say in that one moment in time I made that pretty darn clear?
In fact..she was justifying everything she said...but now using a different kind of qualifier here by saying "I don't mean to attack you, but I am a direct person who doesn't see the point in sugar coating and white lies. I didn't mean to.....I was just kidding....but I going to attack you since I don't use white lies? ) and my mutual unprofessional friends will back me up on this....from my own personal experience with one man...my husband? And then after that.....a watered down version of attacking my credibility.....and then giving a mini chastening on top of it? And saying...."I am a direct person" as her excuse or justification in this "statement" that she made? Saying ..."And I am a direct person, so it was never because I didn't state my boundaries!"
But this was the part that really got to me at the time as I remember this which is why I am coming back here to this comment........
"The way you write about how your wife shuts down is exactly what I used to do when I would throw in the towel and realize nothing I do or say matters to my husband and at this point, he has decided for me my feelings and intentions. This reads in the same way. I mean, you literally outlined at the start of this why you are the better, smarter person and "here's proof." Also, in several places, you were reading other people's minds and emotions, which is a superpower if you can do that. I wouldn't be surprised if your wife feels like you're condescending to her, and the way you write about her is with no love. That has to bleed into your daily interactions with her. I hope you and your wife can get therapy together. No one is perfect and if anything is glaring in this lengthy report, it sounds like boundaries were crossed and communications failed. Also, I think the most happily married people know the first rule to a happy marriage is to get over your pride."
And how did I respond or react to this? Here you go?
Thank You
For your directness and your honesty.
Turning the page. Yes, most definitely. I have struggled with this shutting down issue that my wife has and I have also been searching for answers myself in why this is? I can't know how you mean shutting down for yourself. What shutting down for my wife is exactly what you said about your husband in some ways.
I really can't speak to any correlations you made between what I've written here and what you've experienced with husband (or what your friends think of him and what his problems are ) but I will stay on topic and use what Now Or Never was trying to say to me at the time I responded to her. I think she has some really good things to say and going back over it now....I can see more of what she was saying than at the time.
At the time....I said this. "Right now I'm exhausted, frustrated and angry. This is a cry for help and I'm the worst at asking for it. I apologize up front for my inability to do this correctly. Underneath those surface emotions...and I feel deeply hurt and troubled and fair amount of of resentment for so many reasons I don't know where or how to begin. Right now....I cannot seem to see my way outside of what just happened over the last 4 days away on vacation with my wife, her brother and some friends that invited themselves along to join us (so they said ) but actually did a hit and run on us that threw a bizarre twist into this story that has me scratching my head and at the same time....seeing my wife as a person that I cannot say I have much respect for what so ever...but even deeper than that....I cannot see any Love in her what so ever for me. I feel nothing inside but emptiness or I have no fond feelings what so ever for my wife at this moment in time. What ever feelings I was feeling for her before this time...have effectively died and I'm not seeing a lot of hope in them ever returning this time. What ever I end up feeling towards her after this last excursion....will never be what they were before we left.......To start with....this is just what I am honestly feeling inside and my thoughts to go along with it."
So in retrospect to everything I've said here.....look at what is happening here...and tell me what you think? ( that a general question to the forum as put but you can respond as well NowOrNever ) All I can / could see even then....was a person who didn't listen or only saw what they wanted to see or hear? I had to go back to restate the same qualifications I made and too the point,.,,was saying everything openly and honestly and even saying rigtht up front first...before I said anything else?.
"If I tell it from the ADHD perspective...it will sound as if I am making myself out to be the hero of my own story and that's not why I sharing my experience. Right now I'm exhausted, frustrated and angry. This is a cry for help and I'm the worst at asking for it. I apologize up front for my inability to do this correctly. Underneath those surface emotions...and I feel deeply hurt and troubled and fair amount of of resentment for so many reasons I don't know where or how to begin."
I don't how to be any clearer than that....stated right up front...out in the open so there could be no misunderstanding or wrong conclusions drawn from my stated intention and purpose right from the beginning? As well as my current ( at the time ) state of mind.....WITH INTENTION? INTENTION IS EVERYTHING so what's the problem here? What I got was no acknowledgment....no understanding and no support what so ever in my feelings which were also stated right up front? It was a veiled attempt to attack me and discredit me..and refute everything I said by throwing it back on in in assumption, speculation, conclusions and a fair amount of pretentiousness and condescending...while accusing me of doing the very same thing that she was doing at the very same time?
But did I do what she did and try and defend myself or say she was wrong?
And did what she do serve to separate me from what I said....by isolating me ( even more at my most dire time of need? Stated as a cry for help and needing support? and doing just the opposite in a kind of thinly veiled and quite obvious attack of my feelings in an effort to invalidate me and take any legitimate reason I might have to feel that way away from anything I said? What I saw...was my wife...standing in front of me saying this.....which is exactly what she does? Making things illegitimate...and accusing me of doing the very things she is doing right at the same time?
And how I responded to this comment...is the same way I respond to my wife in real life as well? Even then as I was reading this and going....."you've got to be kidding me? " I wasn't born yesterday you know....how much more obvious can a person be here? On both sides of the equation? I amy not say it....but I'm thinking it just the same?
But at the same time....I am doing my best.....NOT TO DO THIS.... even though I know I have done at some times and especially when I first came here which is more to the point? I did stop doing this as much for sure...even if I have my moments?
But the one thing I can say almost never too.....is not believing anyone and saying that their feelings or wrong? That was the biggest pike of BS.,...in everything that was said? That my feelings...MUST be wrong.....and therefore...are not legitimate and therefore...invalidated?
This thing is here....as far a "justification" of anything that I do or say? I know what my feelings are at almost all times. I can tell you exactly what I am feeling...what my emotions are...and why they are happening? I need to justification for anything I do? I'm a big boy...and I don't need any permission? What I do need...is people to believe me and listen to my words...and not assume and not draw conclusions....and try and tell me I'm wrong by going through the back door...and pretending to be my friend or that they are trying to help me by treating me like I was born yesterday ( or like I don't know what I'm talking about....after 16 years of therapy....and 17 years after the fact of being diagnosed with ADHD...and assuming....making assumptions and drawing incorrect conclusions all because of ADHD....as the first line in the description that describes me?
But......this will never end....and this will never go away ever and I realize it as well to a certain degree? That I accept that more than anything...and just let this all slide? It doesn't mean I take anything said without the same qualification, verifications and confirming supportive evidence to anyones claims...and without that....it nullifies any benefit it has for me....and pretty much disqualifies any validity down to person opinion that is all it's worth IMHO. Stated again...as my opinion and nothing more? I am not trying to fight city Hall any more? It's just that....just because I don't say it....doesn't mean I'm not thinking it just the same?
And the only reason to include you here C...in anything you said...had to do with the word "justification"....as if....I need to justify anything? Which I don't pretty much...and don't feel that wy at all? However....validation, verification, legitimizing what I say...is extremely relevant...when no one will believe you...no matter what you say or your own personal feelings are? That is a legislate statement....but justification is not very relevant here...unless I'm missing something?
I just wanted to end this, with what I really wanted to say in that response I got back in my time of need? Which is not so much a vent...more just shining a big spotlight on what I see and just letting all the words do the talking for themselves here? But what I really wanted to say at the time in response which just show the amount of control and respect I am trying to have in then but it was more true than anything said in that entire thread?
When you assume.....you make an "ASS"...out of ....."U"....and......"ME." Simply put? And for the sake of argument here...I have made an ass of myself plenty....but I am also willing to admit it and not trying and discredit people from not believing what they say? That's the one thing I don't do....especially about there feelings? You can have a conclusion here...without making assumptions and that is pretty much the case....across the board here in this forum since there is way to little information to work from ...for everyone including myself? Up front.....and honest...and open....and no back door Bullshit? Too the point. And to the point.....you would never have to justify anything ever....if people believe you? Would you?
J
This little post has gotten misunderstood ,and I apologize!
Submitted by c ur self on
Support = Comfort J.....You're not alone! :)
Submitted by c ur self on Fri, 12/02/2016 - 20:40
J, You really don't have to look much farther than this forum to find proof to support (no pun intended) that, that you speak of....
A word of caution though....It can become a problem if I fall prey to believing or convincing myself because of the support, (not being alone) that's its OK to **justify my issues** LOL...Just because I go to a Liar's convention and party with all the other Liars??....Just saying:)....
The J was added in the title just as a means of showing who I was responding to....The first sentence was a direct comment about my feelings of the support I have felt on this forum, and your post about support also...You are also correct J about me feelings concerning the word "comfort", many times I have felt comforted when I have had someone come along in real life and on the forum who seemed to truly care, understand and give support...Even if it was hard to hear many times.....
The word of caution comment was to anyone reading that like myself has jumped off a bridge just because someone else did....Not alone?? Get it??...I was just pointing out in my life, I've had bad company, even though they had good intentions....And I tended to flock to the one's who gave that less painful help....by telling me what I wanted to hear....Man you are justified because??? (My good friends).....
The liar's convention was just a wild analogy I made up on the fly to stand as an extreme (comical) example of getting to comfortable or worse making excuses for MY own crap!...LOL..NO one else! No hidden meanings here....No message's sent.....
And I would never call the forum a Liar's Convention....Not as much respect as I have for you guy's and all the help it's been to me....Anyway sorry that I didn't put more qualifier in this post, In rereading it I can see how some people could get confused about it....
C
It's Really Fine .....C
Submitted by kellyj on
Like I said....I was not trying to single you out at all? I was giving you idea of my thoughts and in trying to figure out exactly what you meant is all? It was just confusing to me but I didn't take it personally and figured as much? I figured as said.....that I was more just confused and not getting the meaning exactly...and just showing you why that was more than anything?
And to make sure.....my referencing the other post in connecting anything that you said....had only to do with making a point about ME ( in this case) not making assumptions and conclusions in that....I really didn't assume or make any conclusions in what you said itself ( or taking it on to mean me exactly ??? as I said ) but only in the language and how it was said....could have been possibly?? But it was not exactly clear and I just let that go without forming any real definitive conclusions since.....I needed to know more and I didn't? Directly to the point I was attempting to make? And it was ...only because of the language and how it was said and nothing more to it than that? So with you.....I took the content....and applied it....and didn't react or respond exactly to the rest of it as it applied to me by looking at the words and seeing how it could be taken two different ways.....but not knowing...and giving you the benefit of the doubt? Which I did and to the point? The benefit of the doubt....which my doubt....not yours? Exact-a -Mundo!!!
And with my example with the comment made back when......including my train of thought about that? It wasn't ( obviously ) a malicious attempt to contradict me or refute my feelings or I would have reacted in a more hostile way? But when thing like that happen to you so often....and you realize.....oh yeah, I'm the ADHD person. I don't ge the benefit of the doubt with anyone....why should it start now? This is that thing....that will never ever be? No one gives you the benefit of the doubt...and this is very unfair? But life is unfair....people are unfair...and even I am unfair at times so what does that prove? Nothing really.....it just so happens....it happens ......MORE as soon as you tack ADHD onto the label...and this what gets both frustrating and saddening at times since.....you know it going to happen? You know it's going to happen? And even when you know the person is not correct or is down right missing the Bullseye, the target, the Ball Park...and even the same planet.....you can't say anything ( and I mean....not one word )....and pretty much have to take it, and take it, and take it some more endlessly...and let it go? But full well knowing.....that others ( in a generalized way ) are free to do this with you anytime they feel like it. at will....with no regard for your feelings what so ever...and not even feel the least bit sorry...if they misinterpreted you going the other way? Like never which is always the case with people you don't know? And I am sure of this from a life time of experience.....they feel no remorse, no guilt, and absolutely no compassion for you what so ever and never have to apologize to you ever since you do not deserve it going the other way?
From the ADHD perspective....going the other way as I was pointing out to you in my comment...the person who responded to me after all that I said....had an opinion of me formed without ever having met me to know me or know anything about me.....and without spending any time more with this and just putting this back into perspective here with you.....she had no idea what she was talking about. None. But she had all the information needed.....to not make the blunder she did...in assuming everything wrong she could possibly think? Really....in that particular response.....no one has been more wrong....more half cocked.....and more in a sense......without any ability to interpret or read into what was said....see what was beneath the obvious....seek to understand....seek to identify....seek to differentiate....seek to do anything more.....than just look at things from a rather simple and concrete black and white perspective.....and then jump to conclusions in way that only appears to me as someone with limited ability and capacity mentally....to "read"....basic English....and be so far off the mark as anyone could possibly be in that ONE...instance....because NO benefit of the doubt was afforded or given in respect....JUST to me? And I WAS my ADHD to her.....in this limited view in a kind of ignorant way? Ignorant again...is just knowing any better which is not a crime? Which is why I didn't over react? Which is why I GAVE HER...the benefit of the doubt....even if she could not give that to me which was clear in everything she said?
In respect to this response after everything was said and done....as person like this...cannot be reasoned with? There is no point in saying anything or even giving them the time of day? After everything said in that comment made at the very end of it....and reading the words and somehow overlooking them all? It only showed me what I already know...and how....that will never change....and it will always be there and that's only comes from ignorance.....and ignorance is not a crime? If I want the benefit of the doubt....I have to give it first..and that's just the facts Jack...in having ADHD on the receiving end? That's not speaking to compassion or understadning on my end so to speak......the only thing that I need in that case to rememdy this....is the same Forgiveness for lack or remorse and understanding....that I want in return so I need to give it first.....and get it second...and there is just no two ways around this from the ADHD receiving end of it? Besides....I'm not marrried to her.....and she really doesn't count...as far as anything she has to say or make comment to ....if I see that level of .....not misunderstanding .....but no desire or willingness too which was obvious to me....so I just let it go and file it in the "round file" and move on as if she said nothing???
Turning the page......and dismissing it with no regard for the content or what just simply is a lack of understanding what so ever and making assumptions and drawing conclusions in a very black and white....not thinking outside of the box kind of way? Simplistic...is a good way of describing the mind set? So the only value that serves me is.....not how to deal with this person if I am not going to follow that lead....but how to deal with this "THING".....and not allow that to effect me so I don't do the same mistake and the same things in return...and rise above that...and be the better person?
I CAN see through that .....and I can see... directly from the projection itself ( it tells me and shows me many things ) since that entire response was a projection which shows how her mind works? ( exposes it to me so I can SEE her mind through the projection itself? That isn't mind reading as she accused me of? ) That is after the fact...and using deductive reasoning and facts of evidence? Mind reading...is without prior knowledge or evidence to work from..and thinking you know things about the other person (like their thoughts )...finishing their sentences from them wrong like my wife does? That is mind reading ahead of time (or predicting peoples thoughts or thinking for them ahead of time?..prior to the even that occurred like a crystal ball or something? Or thinking...well...they thought that yesterday.....so they will think it today too? As if....she herself is like this? I THINK NOT?? That a different thing entirely but that is not what I do with her...as said?
And from the mind that says things like......the better, smarter person and "here's proof." Like as if that's a problem? That speaks more about the other person insecurity...and not feeling comfortable with someone is is "better than me" in that regard?....if you take what I said into the context what actually happened...and apply what she said in response.....now I know a lot more than she does...and I can pick and choose what I do with that information....because the one thing I don't need or have any need to do what so ever? Is defend myself? Why? Because I own it.....like the fingers attached to my hand...they are mine and no one can take that from me....not matter how much they try?
This is where you can deduct a lot from....but in order to do that....you have to own it first? If you don't own it....and it becomes part of you in a way that you are now so confident in your abilities to the point of already having the proof you need....you don't need to prove it to anyone.....but....if the need comes where you are not getting the benefit of the doubt....NOW you have to prove it ( again )...not for yourself....but to them which was exactly the case? I gave irrefutable evidence....that no one can argue with...in my experience, knowledge and training that was quantifiable, verifiable, and irrefutable which is really the most telling thing of all in this case?
In the point of contact with someone...and in that interface as put.....when presented with irrefutable evidence to support your claims.....and that person has a negative reaction and reads into ...their own personal feelings about it.....as if.....to make it not true....this person is in denial....and that's what I get from the things that she said? A person like this...is the exact person I use to "psyche out" before my swimming races...and tell them how good I felt..and how I was really on my game...and sight how well I did in the last race ( name dropping kind of ) intentionally.....since I could sense their apprehension and their insecurity...and I would go right after that ( with very much intention ) and attack their self confidence in that way....to basically beat them...before the race even started...knowing that when that moment came at the end of the race...and their faith and trust in themselves was faltering......I OWNED that race....I owned that moment....and I owned THEM...so to speak...because when the moment of truth came...which it does in any race like that......the pain, self doubt, and lack of self confidence, and the inability to move past this for themselves...made them their own worst enemy in that respect...and I would Capitalize on their weakness...and plant that see in their head so when that moment came....they would fail themselves...but I knew....I would not? And when push came to shove....and the wall is there and there is a race to see who touches first? That's my wall......it;s my race....and I own the entire pool since it belongs to me....and I own them too....since I will win? There is no doubt in my mind what so ever....every single time I stepped up on those blocks......I own the day....and it belongs to me....and I own anyone racing me...and I WILL BEAT YOU without a single doubt in my mind? My wall. My pool. My water. My competitors.....all belong to me in that one instance of time? I own it all...and I am King....and I will beat you and I will win and you will lose and you do not have a chance in Hell in ever taking that from me? I own you......so to say? That is not insecurity....that is self confidence...and people who don't like self confidence...are usually pretty insecure them self and weak because of it?
In reality or course....I got beat all the time!!!! LOL Those same people beat me repeatedly...but sometimes I beat them? The one sure fire way of getting beat and losing however...is not taking ownership like that...and not having that attitude to begin with? It's this lack of ownership is the problem....and if you don't own your competition....you will lose and they will win when it comes time to the moment of truth...and push comes to shove....and faith leaves the building...and self doubt takes over your mind? Self doubt...is what shows when you have no ownership...which is why people who doubt themselves....doubt others equally well? And when that happens....they don't believe you because....no matter how self righteous they may come across.....I KNOW ....not from an experience I had with someone else.....I know for fact from becoming that experience myself....and becoming more than I am in normal speaking terms....I sum of the parts...become greater than the whole.
When you become more than you are......YOU become the Ball....as they say? The Ball goes where you decide.....you aren't trying to get the ball to behave or hope that it goes into the hole, over the fence, or in the basket? It goes where you decide it goes...because you are the Ball in that case? Be the Ball....as it is written....but it is only describing a phenomenon....with that reminder in there in case you forget? In the moment of truth?
But in respect to what was said...and the reasons why which I also KNOW without knowing anything more? When you own it....it belongs to you? And when you don't...it doesn't. Either you have what it takes...or you don't.....that much is black and white? And when confronted with people who don't...It shows itself in more ways than you will ever know? So I can read in between the lines here as well as anyone....once you own it..and deduct the difference? Saying...within the projection itself....it tells the tale? What was said in the video I watched about lying....Listen to the lies..and listen to what they are saying? They will tell you a great deal...if you learn how to interpret them? This isn't a super natural ability to read minds as she thought...this is the ability to have ownership..and when you do....you know much more...than you ever could without it? You can't read minds....but you can read the situation...and you read peoples reactions...and you can read in between the lines and know what they are saying to a pretty healthy degree? How do you think Psychologists can do this? Do they have Super Natural abilities that no one else has? Of course not? They own the knowledge and they own the experience...and then they become the experience...which allows them to become you in there thoughts.
It's when knowledge...transcends knowledge to knowing...and when you know it....you own it.....then you become the Ball? And what I have discovered going back to swimming again....when someone doesn't own it.....it means they lack this ability and I could spot them a mile away...and know I was going to win before the race even started? And I capitalized on this...by making them even more insecure and psyching them out...in the mental game of gamesmanship in a sporting competition? The game started...long before you got into the water and you could tell if they had it or not...when time came to own it? Either they did or they didn't...and if they did.....then let the better man win? Which is exactly to the point. In race or sporting contrition....the BETTER MAN does win...but once you prove it to yourself....you don't need to prove it to anyone else and fluent it or say things to show it....because you've got nothing to prove? That is self confidence...but also saying....people who don't own it.....do not fing this attractive in fact....it instills their own self doubt about themselves...and they criticize others who do own it...because they envy them and wish that they could? I found the difference between winning and losing in those cases...had less to do with inherent ability or capacity....and with all physical abilities being equal...that was the difference between winning and losing?
And for a person who never finds this in themselves to own it like this.....they never win..and always lose...and think it's unfair? This is where victim mentality really comes into play here? A person who owns it....is never a victim? People who don't...will always be one in turn? There is nothing unfair in this case.....the way to get it is to earn it..and that's the only way that happens? No one is God given this ability or capacity....that one you have to GET...for yourself and that applies to everyone equally...there is no free lunch in ownership?
So in respect to self doubt, giving other the benefit of the doubt..and in terms of ownership? You can deduct a great deal when you become the Ball...and when you see someone who isn't the Ball themselves....you also see the symptoms and signs that tell you that which shows itself clearly to you...and you need no special gift or talent for that including the ability to mind read? So one someone misinterprets ownership...for mind reading....I can easily deduct...that they don't own it...and they don';t have what it takes? They aren't the Ball....and in essence...I am and that is what they don't like.....because in that respect....you can do more...accomplish more...and read more than they can read and as they see it....."think your better than me" because of it? That one line...was the biggest clue that gave this away...and told me more than I could know otherwise? It showed to me a person.....who;s sum of their parts...are less than the whole....compared to a person who owns it....who sum of their parts....are greater than the whole...but their experience says.....that this is not possible since you can;'t prove a negative can you?
And this is where I can draw my own compassion for them from? If I own it....then it doesn't mean I'm better than they are? In the game of life...it is not a competition? When I see someone doing what was said to me in that comment....I can have compassion and forgiveness...for someone who does not own it...and I can feel sorry for them and extend compassion to them instead of getting angry and feeling like they are "wrong" in this case? Good , bad, right, wrong........only two choices in everything...and seeing anything beyond ...in a black and white world? What they need is a little ....enlightening....and a little "color" in their life.....more than anything else? Simply put?
J
A day and 13 hours later.....J
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
J, several big discussions on the board have been active during my couple of days away. I'm still catching up. I read this long post of yours before heading out. As always you've got more than one important topic going on in your long ones. I'm also guessing that that active fertile ADHD mind of yours may have taken its own trip around the block on topics that you brought up here a couple days ago, and now has turned to other things. May or may not be true of you.
what I thought about most as I turned over in my mind my memory of what you wrote here is what you said about language and reading between the lines.
To me language, whether uttered or written, is a sign system
Only a sign system.
It never is a transparent window to what it signifies...that's a false belief. Nor is writing/speech the substitute, itself, for what it signifies. Language is a mediator. That's why ultimate trust cant be placed in human words themselves as the things to be puzzled through. They are signifiers, not the thing signified. If I possess my husband's words uttered to me, I do not possess the man. So I had better understand that words only do limited things, like point, but not tell me what to see when I look that direction.
Words can never completely represent what they are used to signify, that's why it's a fallacy to think that your wife's or anyone's partner or coworker's, or a poster on this site's words are all the material needed for getting access to what she, and other people, like you, like me, cannot pack into words because words are a limited sign system. What usually cannot be packed into words include all the thoughts in the speaker's head, much of the speaker's history, the speaker's hopes, fears, dreams, non verbal experiences and so on and so on.
Facial gestures and tone of voice are even more limited signal systems. And those, you know, are absent from online communication.
We people in the US are a very verbally oriented culture. We put great stock in words, but the fact is, they are usually insufficient signs for what their user is talking about. We also very often think in words. We're very likely thinking in words when we analyze something, or name something, or make up a story in our head about something. It's possible to "mentate" non verbally, but I'm not sure that it is possible to interpret someone else's words without using words yourself.
An old author, Fredric Jameson, has a catchy book title about one of our problems with believing that someone's words capture their intentions. He called it The Prison House of Language. It's very difficult to get beyond words to what they are pointing to, or might be pointing to.
Part two is the interpretation of someone else's words.
There is something called reader reception theory that makes the case that the reader or hearer of someone else's words strongly tends to create all the rest of what the listener/hearer needs, to make sense out of someone else's words....by supplying, from inside his/her head, what the listener decides is needed to add to what the writer or speaker said, to make things make sense to the listener.
But to be clear about that, the interpretation of someone else's words, comes from oneself, and suits the listener's reality. This move, which is very human, essentially round files or discards whatever of the original author, tone utterer, facial gesture maker's intentions that dont fit the interpretation the listener/reader is forming in his head, in favor of the listener's own nascent interpretation. The listener is trying to understand his own universe, not that of the speaker or writer, who in any event lives beyond words.
I think, for myself at least, that a listener needs to put it up front and honestly on the line to herself or himself: am I wanting to listen to this...for my own needs and ends? Or do I care to put myself through listening non authoritarianly to the word utterer who must struggle, because all humans struggle, to point to what she/he chooses to use words to point to. You see, if I deal with someone else's words, actions, facial gestures, etc. holding the phone on my interpretation, I run the risk of having my interpretation, which would make MY life stable, knocked to pieces.
A reading between the lines that is for oneself can't do the job of learning about something that is not one's own interpretation. .
Asking questions, listening, and believing that the utterer/writer is writing out of his or her own world, and does not have to make complete sense to mine....ever... helps me.
Deeply Thinking.........NON
Submitted by kellyj on
I took a time out from my thoughts to let everything catch up...and what you were continuing to say here is related to my thoughts as well? I've told you that I think my memory is pretty good and I think it is? My memory has saved my ass......so to speak......in countless ways I won't even to into but it's the long term memory of course that I am thinking about here? I'm not going to say for a second....that I think I have some special talent....but really if you think about it....memory could be seen as a gift if you're is just better than another persons in some ways and I do think this might even be related to having ADHD again? What they say......when a door closes ....a window opens up? And what about say Ray Charles or Stevie Wonder and their gift in music? They can't see but they can hear extremely well? I tend to internalize things that people say to me....and because of that....I remember what people say many times for years until I it finally dawns on me what they were really saying? I know I've got that vivid imagination? I know I've got that really good ability to visualize ( the artist part? Was born that way and it always stood out? And my detailed stories which I know now unfortunately....some of that comes from abuse and my particular attachment as well but....that window however? The one that opens somewhere when the door closes? I was thinking about what I said yesterday when I was changing hats...and putting on my coach persona? Here's my own personal theory...but it's not based on anyone else but me and things I've kind of discovered along the way and it does have to do with that 6th sense things again ( my ability to seeming ) know things without having any idea as to why?
I'm going to step of a cliff for a moment and share something that I have not shared with many before....but it does have to do with going back to "The Big Dose".....if you remember my accidental "enlightening" and "satori" experience on LSD that one time? I may lose many here and it might be easily dismissed as "drug epiphanies" ( brilliant idea when you are inebriated you think ) and then you wake up in the morning and go....."yeah that was kind of stupid!!!"....when you come to your senses and are not "drunk" on what ever? ( including alcohol ) I've had so many of those in my life....I pretty much discount those as well ( and dismiss them just as fast lol ) But since that was not my first time at the rodeo you might say....there was nothing new in that experience from ( 15 + years before when I was in college )...but as I am....I am not really invested in "magic" or the supernatural myself...and have always looked for answers in science or something that can actually explains things in way that anyone can understand? If you recall....I figured out there was no Santa Claus when I was just 4 almost 5 years old? ( to the disappointment of my entire family since they were playing me hard on Santa Claus routine? LOL So it wasn't because they weren't trying!!! LOL None the less?
And that's just it right there? I remember that well and to the point....I can picture the "big one" that I remember and it was one of those details again which really tipped me off? ( at age 4 ). My mom took me Christmas shoppimng with her without the rest of my family..and we were going store to store right during this time of year? Any way....there was more than one Santa that I saw in the same day ( kind of a give away but possibly not for most 4 year olds? ) I was the same. That somehow wasn't really reregistering either which was par for the course for me too? But too this day and right this very minute....I remembered something I saw that stuck..and stuck for good and it's still there and I can see it clearly along with what this one Santa looked like? The thing that just jumped out and I noticed in a split second...was this guys glasses? He had the beard and everything covering up his face...but he had those dark black rimmed glasses that were so common in the late 50's and early sixties since people were kind of fashion challenged compared to today and there were a lot of choices or different styles? Those glasses were the thing that broke it all open for me which is kind of interesting since that was one of those "hey wait a minute" moments? Those hey wait a minute moments appear to something that I do a lot!! LOL And I always have which is leading up to what I'm about to say here? I have read where people with ADHD....see things sometimes that others don't see? That how they word it...and that's not what I think? Along with that 6th sense" as it called which again...sounds kind of mystical or like some kind of magic power? Honestly? I don't believe in that either? I believe there always has to be rational explanation for EVERYTHING!!! Only....we just don't know those yet but we will someday...even once we're gone? And without jumping topic here....it's the problem I have with GOD the Devil and Hell and Heaven? If you can explain it to me in relational, verifiable, scientific terms....it's not that I don't believe in these things because "you can't prove it". It's because...the people who came up with these concepts were pretty darn ignorant? If you were to go back in time with your cell phone and wip that out on someone back then....and start talking on it? Or listening to your messages on speaker? Let alone anything else you might do like pull up a picture?? ( OMG!!! )....Not only would they get "brain freeze" ( like the Androids in that Star Trek episode where the lights on there collars started blinking and then they shut down LOL Remember...the Liar Paradox? LOL I know you made comment on this so I'm pretty sure you will recall? ) How could you not assume...that this person ( 2000 year ago ) would not think that this was magic....GOD, The Devil and some evil spirits coming into their mind and you were just a hallucination? And go screaming and yelling down the streets that Satan has arrived in their village? lol ) I think you get the point? We are pretty arrogant as a species...and we think....we now a lot! When actually...we don't? What ever we think now....will change eventually? Not everything...but some things for sure?
And taking that kind of thinking with me...it is how I see things more often than not? There is...an explanation for everything...and there is a lot we don't know...so what is left for us to do with that....is what ever we do with it which usually....we make stuff up to try and explain what we having found out yet? So in that train of thought....what ever it is that we "think" it is.....will be different later...so to say....God is this or that...and all these things happened in the bible exactly as God said it? My question for anyone mulling this over? Who was he saying it to!!!!!! LOL I think I've got a point...and it's not the one on top of my head??
And in the same way....I've been like this my entire life? Nothings changed going all the way back to the Santa story with the guy with thick black glasses? Something wasn't right....I saw it in a flash...and that stuck....and there is was? And that's just it? I can't "dismiss things" very well or at all sometimes? In fact....I am so bad at "dismissing" and just finding the nearest or closest anwer and moving on......these moments when things don't add up ( with a real quantifiable explanation )...those unresolved thoughts...just stick and they remain that way? Kind of like they go into "mental purgatory"....not in the long term memory...but not short term either? That mental purgatory I've got...is so full of unresolved questions ( all those moments of "hey wait a minute???" ) that there seems to be a third category ( that I just don't know the name of ) where all these things go and they kind of simmer indefinitely...until that answer arrives as to......WHY??? Really truly.....they never go away...even if I stop thinking about them and then I'll be strolling along..and it finally hits me? Another or a million epiphanies I have and have had throughout my life? Millions upon millions!!! And there's more where that came from!!! My mental purgatory...has no bounds and when it "stick" it "sticks" and it never goes away? And I mean....I remember almost everyone one to the point...that I am still resolving ones from a kid....that have been in there for that long? And what "sticks"....is usually something I saw visually like I've said...but many many times...it's something someone said to me...about me mainly....that registered ....npt quite right? It's not shame or feeling insecure either as to why I remember these things? It has to do with "making sense" and not having that "rational explanation" that I am satisfied with to explain it to me? And they will be there waiting until the day I die I'm sure if they having been resolved to my satisfaction but the reason for this...goes back to my "Big Dose" again and that sixth sense?
I want to make sure I qualify this by saying...I'm not advocating drug use or saying what I did was smart? I won't say it was dumb either...but it is what it is? I did it and that's it so I huge that experience? But because I have that experience...and as I have have said before...it changed my life in a very plosive way which has shaped my thoughts about everything from that moment on to this day? I forget about it in fact...but I also forget...what it was like before that happened to me as well? This is where ...as I was pointing out and I hope I got that through here.....THAT...was an accident...meaning...I wasn't "seeking anything"...to the point...that I was convinced nothing would even happen and boy....I was wrong on that one!!! And How!!! LOL To the point...that I was so sure nothing would happen...that I didn't tell my very good friend and I was actually driving when it started hitting me and my friend went....."where are you going!!!" Since I drove right by the exit and was heading North!!! To who knows where? And that's when I realized...."Uh oh....I think it's working?? LOL) And I had to tell him which was fine as far as the "Drug" thing went since he and I had known each other since we were 10 and done of lot of interesting adventure together to date at the time so that wasn't so shocking to him ( he knew me...what more can I say!! LOL ) But now as he said....."Oh God...am I going to have to baby sit you the entire time??? Jesus.....(sigh ....eye roll ) which was just par for the course and he got with the program and baby sat me literally? So in respect to my friend...he lead the way..and I just followed him ( not blindly but....."enhanced" you might say?) Any way...in that moment I remember suggesting that I pull over so he could drive the ( all of 1/4 of mile ) to the venue and park since that was becoming increasingly more difficult! LOL
So I'm sorry for the long lead up...but like I said...this is kind of obtuse and certainly abstract enough...that I can assume anyone reading this is going to necessarily have any idea what I'm talking about exactly even if....you had some experience along these lines...which for you NON....I'm not assuming that you would which would be normal for most in fact...the majority of people out there for sure?
Okay...so now in context to what I said before about "noticing things" and things "sticking" and remaining unresolved? During that adventure ( you might say )...it was like that purgatory of unresolved things got swept clean and deleted in respect to the fact that something happened that open the door to my perception in a way that never close again from that day moving forward? It was like a release of all those negative thoughts and they instantly disappeared? But as I said....this remained this way until this day and that was not a "drug epiphany" so to speak ( just crazy idea you come up with at the time that sound good until the next morning? LOL )
And this is not something I would normally share with someone unless they were relating a similar experience under the same condition so to speak which I am not assuming as I said...but there is a reason for this here in relationship to every else that happened that day? I will fill you in on a common experience that people report about their Hallucinations...on LSD...and one of if not the most common ones is seeing patterns. Forget about any "dramatizations" you seen on TV about what those hallucinations are really like? It's not just visual...it is ALL your senses doing this at the same time along with sight, smell, taste, touch and hearing? And not....it's not that things completely appear out of no where or you see things that aren't there? Mostly...is just very distorted..and with a lot a aberrations...you might say? Just distortions of what is there....not seeing things that don't exist but...with a couple of exceptions and those would be those patterns?
On that day...since I took WAY more than I normally would take ( by accident of course...being impulsive and all LOL )..BUT.....something did happen along the lines of hallucinations that remained ( and remain) stuck in my mental purgatory awaiting an explanation and I am not 100% not knowing what I THINK it is...but there is just no way for me to know and there is no information or anyone who can tell me so I have thought about this deeply for a very long time to explain to me what this was?
So if you are with me so far....as I said...some kind of doorway or connection in me opened up and everything that was behind that door suddenly just flooded me with clarity and a lot of answers I had ben waiting for...just like that!! Bam. The flood gate opened up and dam bursts in purgatory!!! LOL But here the part that 'stuck"..and went back in you might say? It went in...because it was the only thing left unresolved about that day for me..,.otherwise....I was light as a feather for almost two months which is almost exactly....if not exactly..,,.,the way Elkhart Tolle described what happened to him with sitting on a park bench a couple of months like Buddha sitting underneath the tree? And as he said...he didn't heed anything...and it was the same for me for at least two months after that? I needed nothing from anyone...because I suddenly had everything I needed and I was perfectly content?
But back to those hallucinations again? Those patterns were both amazing and kind of funny as I remember it? We were sitting out in the parking lot when I first started seeing things...and the first thing that I saw...was all the cars had patterns on them ...but nothing else? Like they were painted in "plaid" which was what I actually remember? I remember standing there trying not to laugh since we were talking to some guy who asked us something and while I was looking at him...the car behind him had a "Plaid" paint job which I new was a hallucination so I couldn't burst out laughing without everyone looking at me funny and I was doing my best just to keep my mouth shut...and not share with anyone else...what they couldn't see? LOL Like I said...not my first time at the rodeo at least on the ..."etiquette part" of it you might say? Keep it to yourself.....since you're the only ONE who see's it!!!! lol That's a fact!!! LOL I knew the cars didn't have "plaid" paint jobs...so that was just a private joke between me and myself?? LOL
Alright...enough of the the story lead in to get to the point here? I'm not telling this just to be funny because I actually really think there is something very REAL here? As I said...I'm not big on the idea or supernatural or magic ( or miracles where things appear out of thin air? Another problem with religion I have but that's kind of besides the point ( and more a consideration? ) I'm trying to get to!! )
So in respect to just these hallucinations ...which were really NOT THERE? Unlike everything else that did happen to me in a "real" way......those weren't "real" and were not distortions or aberrations? Those were full blown Hallucinations...in "Vide" ...crystal clear color......and "Tartan" just to start with?? LOL But when things really started getting intense....I started seeing patterns like extremely intricate "Persian Rugs". Extremely exact...geometric patterns like a snow flake...or a crystalline structure under a microscope ( mineral crystals under magnification ) I had never seen hallucinations so vivid and intricate to the point...that it occurred to me ( wait a minute..."stick" )...I had never seen those before??? And full well knowing...they are a Halluctination and were not there.....these patterns were all mathematical geometric patterns.... with clear defined shapes? So clearly vivid and exact...that remember thinking...wait a minute...if I haven't seen these before...and they are coming from inside my head? Where did they come from...since I would never in a millions years be able to draw them or remember them since it WAS...like looking at mineral crystalline patterns once the "Tartan" ones were replaced? And that's the point in mentioning the "Plaid" ones? Those I could resolve as something I had seen before? But I had never seen anything quite like these before...but they were....in respect to a Snow Flake? Remarkably familiar in that way? You would have to have glasses to the 500x power to be able to see anything like this..and I haven't spent any time looking at things through microscope...even back then to have seen these before? And yet ...my mind was creating these things spontaneously...in a very recognizable way in that....like I said....if you to inspect a Persian rug ...or any kind of complex geometric patterns in fabric for example really closely....it might be very close to what I was seeing...but seeing this everywhere and I of course...had no control of this? It is the only time anything like that happened even in my past in a similar way and I have talked to people about their hallucinations and all seem to be different and not exactly the same kinds of patterns in respect to ones you had never seen before or something that you recognize which I didn't? And if I consider my strength you might say...is visualizing things and a vivid imagination? That is part of this for me I think ( in such a vivid clear image )...BUT......to imagine something like that...that I can't do and never have been before or after...in such a way that is scientifically possible...in respect to geometric patterns or "weaves" you might say? Those images were coming from somewhere..and that somewhere was me? It wasn't from anything I had ever seen before....so it was not just in there and I didn't remember? I would not have the ability to draw these as I said..which means...I can't even imagine them....but they were as real as my dog sitting here...looking at me right now?
Where did those come from then...and how did they get in there? The only explanation I have...is that ....they were already there but not from anything I experienced or have seen before...or after?And just to remind you again....."Tartan" or "plaid".....I have and had seen? I can explain this and I recognize "Plaid" when I see it? But when you start to see Snow Flake kind of patterns and you recognize them as something "microscopic" or else you can see it? Something was revealed to me then....and then the window closed and I lost the ability to see it? For a brief time...a window was opened and I saw things and resolved things I was never able to resolved and got all those answers somehow....and then the window closed again...but the effect...and the memory remained and stayed with me...that didn't go back to the way I was before and stayed that way to this day...which is why I say it changed my life that movement.....right until this very minute?
So I guess...after another long winded esoteric post here....I did come to a conclusion about this after many years of thinking about it? There are things in our minds...that were not put there by our experiences or anything we know? I actually belief...that everything we could ever want to know...is actually in our minds already and we just don't realize it? More than we may possibly ever know. our lifetime of living? But I also believe...that this same programming was there 2000 years ago....and they just knew less about these things as we do now...but it was there already....Preprogrammed into there by??????? What ever you want to call it.....but that brings me to this sixth sense thing again?
People have always made comment to me...that I "notice" things they don't? All my life this is true...but I will over look dirty counters and my clothes on the floor and things of that nature horribly?
But this idea of a door closing and a window opening...is extremely relevant to everything I just said? I don;t have to think about things like I saw when I was 4 years old and happened to notice Santa "black rimmed" glasses...and then went ( hey wait a minute?? ) and I've got to say....like 100% of the time...I may not know what that means when that happens...but when it does happen...those things "stick" and they "stick" with me forever?? And they go right into my side compartment of my memory.....which is....as yet to be resolved....but with absolutely no conclusions? And if you don[t draw conclusions well...that can be a good thing and a bad thing which is part of my "Pollyanna" kind a Nativity....which I have worked hard to move away from which for the most part...I had to learn the hard way...since I could not see the down sides before they happened because of it? Now that I have the experience and knowledge of not doing certain things again...I know what to look out for in respect to my past? But in this weird way and applying everything I just said? I have always noticed things that others just don't seem to notice ( Live in person not on the internet ) and I guess you could say I was born with a high degree of perceptiveness...even if I am kind of oblivious in others ways ( more speaking to the past now since I'm paying attention night and day better than I use to?)
I am IPT / IFT...split on the Brigs Meyers test ( Intuitive Perceiving Thinking / Intuitive Feeling Thinking ) and some days I test the one and some days I test the other and sometime the test results just said I was right on the line between the two?
Which finally ( I had to go through that set up to verify what I am saying? )....this is what I am thinking deeply about when it comes to my wife and what I see sometimes? It isn't what I see....it is what I perceive? And I am very perceptive in the moment live in person...even if I am not paying attention? Just like when I was 4 years old and noticed these important details that told me the answer to something real and it was true? I may not notice my clothes in wad on the floor.....but I don't even have to try to perceive things accurately? If there is a gift...or something that I know without a doubt what so ever....is my perceptions...have been extremely accurate despite my ADHD and all of those "other things" that are negative?
This is where it is like a blessing and a curse sometimes and especially with my wife? I am highly perceptive im reality with all the information there to work from? Here....as you were mentioning....words are all we've got and you can developed a sense of what others are like or what they are saying....but for me...the hardest thing I found when I first came here was...not so much not having trouble reading people accurately? And not exactly the lack of non=verbal which is part of perceptions too? But the way my mind works..and with all those vivid patterns in there that I know they are there now along with a whole of of "STUFF" ( I'm sure now for sure )...that I have no idea is there? My strongest and at time ( the curse that goes with it ) is perceiving things really accurately in person and I have a terrible time in NOT NOTICING what I notice...even if I don't notice crap on the floor!!!!! LOL
My I notice are personas...and personality traits...and pattern of behavior and I don't even need to try? I notice these things so clearly....it's hard for me to remind myself...that other people are not noticing these things like I am.....or to the degree of accuracy sometimes? Why else would they point that out....if they could see it to?
So yes NON....I am a firm believer in when one door shut....and window open somewhere? I experienced that BIG TIME!!! Without a doubt in my mind what so ever:)
And just a disclaimer after romanticizing my experience with LSD here for any one reading this. DO NOT THINK ABOUT IT!! DON'T DO IT!!! Unless it calls to you but even then....It is nothing like any drug you have ever taken and it is extremely powerful stuff!!! AND AND AND.........what happened to me...only happened ONCE! And I had a number of experiences with psychedelics before that and that NEVER happened before and after which was maybe once or twice with Mushrooms since we did go pick them locally at Halloween and for the time they wer around where I live since they grow wild everywhere and it was a pretty common thing growing up with lots of people I interacted with in a general way? Mushrooms are in the same Ball Park.....but nothing compared to what happened to me that one time but that was an accident like I said? I wouldn't call that recreational.....I would call that a religious experience and getting a glimpse of the future you might say? A glimpse of what it to come....once we are dead and gone perhaps with humanity but we're just not there yet as a whole? Like they were 2000 years ago......kind of ignorant...and arrogant...and thinking they that they thought that they knew? They didn't know SHIT!!!.....that was their reality!!! LOL I have my thoughts along these lines when it comes to Jesus...but I'll save that for another time. Or not? LOL
J
Bro
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Have no fear, I can track along with you.
There's something called a noetic experience. Spelled just that way.
I believe this: what ever it is that we "think" it is.....will be different later..
...Offline, I'm hoping to make a shift in a few things so I dont know what that will do to my time on the forum.
Sail on, J. Be true
Now
Now
Submitted by c ur self on
I'm not sure if you will get this, it looks like you may have deleted your account...But, just in case, I wanted to say to you, that you are on the short list of humans who have impacted me (especially in script only) in such a real and positive manner...You seemed to know my thoughts, you have a gift!
People need you:), and I'm sure you will be ministering and loving them, where every this life takes you!..:)
Grace and Peace be with you!
C
C....I'm Right There With You
Submitted by kellyj on
I hadn't noticed this until you just mentioned it...but if I had to thank anyone here...for getting me through a lot of tough times and some moments of utter despair...I would have to point to Now...for being there and helping me through this and give her the credit here...where credit is due. She has been a gift for me...in more ways I can tell you ( or her ). So with all due respect..and a great deal of humility....I have to say thank you from the bottom of my heart...for doing more for me than she will ever know? If it wasn't for her....taking me by the hand and giving me a smack up side the head a couple of time for good measure....I would still be here venting and complaining out of shear frustration and losing me shit. I mean...my composure and decorum. That sounds a little better anyway? I am learning as I go! LOL
Thank You NOW...for everything if you see this which eventually....I'm sure you will. No need to respond...just receive this as it is..and know it comes from the heart.
J
It was HUGE for me...
Submitted by DependentOrigination on
Made me feel way better. Helped me deal with my own guilt and self loathing for my behaviour. If it is a common enough problem that there is a whole website dedicated to relationship difficulties with ADHD spouses, then who am I to not have those same issues? I don't think I am some spectacular human being who is exempt from the same trials and tribulations and faults and foibles that plague the rest of humanity.
It didn't justify my behaviour, but it put it in context. And, it helped me realize, I wasn't crazy. Well, super crazy. And that this bizarre reality that had become my life, was actually, real... and experienced by other people. Definitely good J. Definitely good. I hope my husband meets some well adjusted ADHD people like you. I think it would make him feel good as well.
Can I just say...
Submitted by DependentOrigination on
Here is to being the best spouse I can be, no matter what my spouse's commitment is. I took this in a very negative way last week (it wasn't a great week), but, you can turn all things on their head and examine them another way. So, here is to being the best spouse I can be this week.
DO..about your daughter....
Submitted by Zapp10 on
She has EVERY chance of success should it prove out that she has Adhd. Young minds are so much more accepting of possibilities. Addressed and embraced Adhd is so far from the the chaos and wreckage we have experienced from un addressed/ denied adhd. You have much to offer her in this journey! I have gleaned much from your posts.
My own marriage of 43 yrs has taken another step towards done.....which leaves room for the time being...to the final step. I have come to clearer understandings of who I am and MY own contributions on the negative end of this. My OWN issues would have been there whether married or not.....I think it's called GROWING UP. Relationships with people can be difficult.....to me that is LIFE. I have GROWN in my awareness of ME and others. I want to enjoy life. Getting to the root of who I am....and being "good" with it (but always open to learning something new(about myself).....I can MOVE forward.
When it comes to marriage and love?.....you are damn straight I have expectations......I am over his denial/victim idiocy about adhd. HE IS A GROWN MAN.
I don't HAVE to love him.....I get/choose to.....with ALL that entails. I expect the same reciprocation/mutuality/accountability.
I do not expect to be treated as an after thought.
I do not expect I can't lean on him when I am in need.....NOT NEEDY....but obvious need.(hospitalization, car broke down, temporary back issue, throwing my guts up, minor issues during pregnancy) It's amazing how ALL these and more never occurred at a convenient time for him.....and STILL don't)
I don't expect you to live like you are single
I don't expect you to agree with me ALL the time
I don't expect you to stop being the individual you are
I do expect you WANT to be married
I do expect that you and I in a marriage is an us/we union.This is not a consideration left to your discretion.
I expect that you be honest with yourself and live with the result of YOUR actions/decisions. How great and NOT SO GREAT!
I expect that we will grow in this journey of marriage.....not stagnant in the selfishness of our minds.
I expect you understand marriage is 24/7....month after year........don't like that?.............DON"T GET MARRIED!!!
I expect you think marriage is a GOOD thing....for BOTH of us.
TWO people AGREEING and ACTING UPON the agreement(whatever/however they decide) makes a marriage.........anything less than this is not a marriage.
I know what it is to love.......I want to know what it is to be....loved...........shoot me for wanting
I will not take the posture that I can rise up and love like Jesus. He is perfection.....I am not. I long to BE LOVED..........shoot me.....again.
I am 61 and no longer have the opportunity to be the "wife" of someone"s youth.......but just maybe I will be a"glimmer" in someone"s eye.....if only for a moment....and I will treasure that I was loved. I will KNOW that I was loved......because in the end.....we KNOW that we know WHEN we are loved.....and yes I know God loves me.....I want to know the love of an intimate human relationship.....marriage. I will be content with my hope and should it not happen.....I will STILL be content with my life. I will NOT continue an affront of hypocrisy to God claiming this is a marriage.....it is NOT.
You said it, Zapp
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
You said a lot of bottom line truths
I do not expect to be treated as an after thought.
I needed to read this line in your post this morning. Thank you.
Further clarification of earlier post...
Submitted by Zapp10 on
I was not "mad". What sparked my post was going to what Melissa has said.......if your spouse doesn't accept they have ADHD there is NOT a lot you can do to "save" or make the marriage work. I sat there thinking.......like....who DOESN'T KNOW that?......duh.....apparently me but........we spouses......we fight for those we love.....until we look at the obvious.....weeks, months and years LATER. My LOVING my spouse does NOTHING for him. My DOING things does....hmmm.....he can hire people to do what I do but they will not love him with the INTIMACY that is god given and unique to a marriage. That is why it takes TWO!!!!!
My H is a helpful person......so long as you don't need it everyday.
My H is a thoughtful person.....so long as you don't need it everyday.
My H is a hard worker......so long as it isn't everyday.
My H can be a talker.....so long as it isn't everyday.
My H can DO alot......so long as it isn't everyday .......and he is interested (narrow list here)
My H LOVES me to go along with him wherever he goes....errands, purchasing....what ever. I realized a few years back.......I am just like a dog in a pick up with a guy. I'm his buddy when things are good (when I have no needs) and when he is done with me....his need is for me to "go lay down" and wait til he wants me to go with him again.
Does he realize his actions? No.......does he want to?.....no. Time to stop beating a dead horse.
"Happily ever after" doesn't just apply to marriage.
Took me a solid three years
Submitted by DependentOrigination on
Before I realized my ADHD husband needed a massage therapist, a personal assistant and a (excuse my language) whore (I guess prostitute would be a more acceptable term?), not a wife. Me taking my own life back (instead of being the dog in the pick up truck... which I was gladly for two years) has been the best thing for both of us. He learned what it is like to interact with a real human being (not just a reflection or extension of his own self). I am happier and enjoying the life I created for myself. Its amazing. I would love to create a forum topic that listed all the things I have learned from the people on this website about what is an ADHD thing, and what isn't an ADHD thing, just by reading their posts and laughing when I come across something my husband does, that I have never understood... Like, leaving his coffee mug in the microwave for days, or heating it up 18 times, but never drinking it. Like always doing the laundry (even if it is only one thing) but never folding it and putting it away. Like going to the grocery store and always leaving with $200 to $400 dollars worth of groceries, even if we are only going away for two days, and there is only two of us.
My husband does address my needs, at times. Obviously not as much as might need or want, otherwise I wouldn't be here. But if he didn't address my needs at all, I wouldn't be with him. I respect your experience and your choices. Not easy, by any stretch. Anyway you look at it. I sincerely wish you the best.
It's amazing how we experience such mirroring of behaviors....
Submitted by c ur self on
(I would love to create a forum topic that listed all the things I have learned from the people on this website about what is an ADHD thing, and what isn't an ADHD thing, just by reading their posts and laughing when I come across something my husband does, that I have never understood... Like, leaving his coffee mug in the microwave for days, or heating it up 18 times, but never drinking it. Like always doing the laundry (even if it is only one thing) but never folding it and putting it away. Like going to the grocery store and always leaving with $200 to $400 dollars worth of groceries, even if we are only going away for two days, and there is only two of us.)
Yep, Yep, and Yep...LOL...So funny, and so not an accident that these things are so common in our spouses lives....
One key thing that has happened FOR ME over the last few years....And believe me when I tell you it was FOR ME....Plays off the phrase in your post that say's....**"things that I never understood".**....I have found when I just accept it, instead of thinking I need or have to understand it.....I'm in a much better place:).....
C
Amen
Submitted by DependentOrigination on
I have stopped trying to understand or change it now that I know the source is ADHD. It makes sense now, because of the ADHD. The trying to understand came before. It was just so weird. Seeing all these things happening in this individual who I thought was high functioning and rationale. And not being able to put all the pieces together so they made a picture I could understand. Now, I get what you say when you say you don't need to understand it. It is a similar thing as me saying, it won't make sense, because it doesn't, because he has a brain with untreated ADD. Check. Lightbulb moment. We are saying the same things different ways.
Yep....I wish I had been better educated on what to expect.....
Submitted by c ur self on
If I was going to right a book about how to thrive in a marriage to a partner who had adhd I would suggest.....
NEVER expect them to think like you....Expect to have to set boundaries to protect both of your normals the first year of marriage....
RECOGNIZE difference's before jumping in and sharing in things you feel differently about....Spending habits, parenting, Job dedication, cleanliness of house and cars...It's always better to agree and set boundaries going in, than to have hurt feelings and blaming going on when you should be honey mooning....So no rose colored glasses from the start.....
NEVER take things personal, where there is no intent for malice....It's imperative you Trust and Love more than focusing on trying to understand.....
His and Hers closets....
His and Hers storage buildings...
His and Hers desks....
Minimum of 10 sessions with a counselor....That speak directly to communication, spousal responsibilities in every area of life (job responsibilities inside and outside the home, conjugal rights, parenting etc..)
Never have a child until both of you want it, and both are gladly wanting to commit to the responsibility of parenting without excuse...I suggest you wait between 5 and 7 minimum....
This would get me started...LOL...
C
Yes
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
yes indeed, the boundaries I need are different.
I could have been helped by some education on what is neurologically behind the self focus. I could still use that education.
It's been like deducing that there's another universe than the one visible to me, from randomly stumbling across wormholes that appear in inconsistent spots that change daily, and watching things to my surprise, objects, social interactions, sometimes the tail of my skirt or my own hand get sucked into a surprise hole today, as if that other universe had some kind of vacuum cleaner attached to the hole, sucking things away from this side. I'd like to know much, much more about the science of Adhd impact on mental perception.
Hahaha on me, as it is now, given that I'm my own kind of woolgather usually off in other universes in my head, although able to get back to the time and space one, for me bebopping along and hitting one of those for-today vaccum tube holes sucking toward his perceptual universe can be very much like being a blind mole, snout to the stars, scuttling along periodically falling in potholes.
...I grant him his universe and its difference. I'm deeply interested. I want him well. I sure wish I could learn more facts about the neurology itself.
I Want the Most, But I'll Take the Least Zapp
Submitted by kellyj on
It is what it is? And that's all that it is? The title line is actually part of the lyrics to a song but it speaks to what I got from what you said? Call a spade a spade...and don't say it's diamond if that's the case?
That song lyric line..is one of my favorites and at first it sounds like someone willing to settle for less but it's not when you stop and think about it more closely? It implies....always wanting the most or expecting that you do? But it also...in the same sentence....say....I am willing to take what I can get? And then.....possibly be happy with it? The rest of the song implies this so I will fill in the blanks for you here? It's a weird crazy song from a very weird crazy appearing man? I don't even have a word to describe this guy...."Lux Interiors", but he ( now dead RIP ) was actually married to the woman I made a post already including her tribute....."Poison Ivy" from the group called "The Cramps". LOL Funny name for a funny group? I first saw them in 1981 for the first time in a small club in my home town with a friend? We were ( pretty drunk ) as I remember ( at age 23 ) and we thought they were a riot?(funny and fun with a great attitude and "Schtick" ) They were ( and are ) still to this day an enigma in the world of Rock a Billy music? ( one of a kind for sure )
When the show was over and my friend and I were about the last people in the place ( still drinking and having fun )....the group sat down next to us at a table..and we chatted with them for a moment and that was very different? He was very different..... they were very different....in all respects?? Well....in all respects compared to us...as we were just "normal looking" average American guys with not much on in our minds at the time other than to have a good time and seeing some good music ( and drinking lots of beer !!! ) and what we got was??? Well....different? LOL But mainly and more importantly...what they had was integrity? Pretty much getting up there and saying...."this is who we are and we're not ashamed or embarrassed to be this way?" In fact.....flaunting it unashamedly?
I later read a blurb or interview with from the Lux himself and what he said I will always remember? He said...if it hadn't been for the fact that he and his mate ( Poison Ivy ) did not have an outlet for their weirdness....he would probably be dead? Speaking directly to the fact...that ...he knew he was kind of a weird-o and made no bones about it made? I don't even know how to classify this guy...but he was weird alright....but the other thing he made mention was that he had found his soul mate "Poison Ivy"....and she with him? Which was also true from just the looks of it? They were a pair or match....made in Heaven you might say? Unfortunately...he passed on a few years back and I wonder what she is up to these days without him?
But back to the song? It appeared to be a song...written by him about himself..and was giving his perspective of who he was...and his philosophy on life? Kind of like an Anthem you might say or even a badge of honor? Anyway.......no matter what you could ever say about these two or the group as a whole....the one thing they had more than anything else....was integrity. No matter how weird they were and with that....it came through as they performed and this is what made them great IMHO? Despite.;...anything else you could ever say about them other than "weird".
I think the way I could phrase this better is......"Better to be weird with integrity...than not being weird at all?" I think for every lid there is a pot as they say? But if the lid don't fit.....then you make it fit anyway and use integrity to do so? In my own words in how to do it? I get that very much from the things you said...and I see integrity with you in what you said. That is nice to see and hear for me as well? Sorry for being so obscure in a round about way...but it was the line of this song that really stuck in my head and mostly how I think this applies to the way I see things too more than anything else?
https://youtu.be/wrarS7mLlB0
J
Interesting J.....
Submitted by Zapp10 on
I listened and I liked the music/lyrics. Never heard of them but I will compare it to the groups KISS, grateful dead and talking heads etc. I thought THEY were nuts! But I was also intrigued by their individuality as a group. Interesting that I usually don't attach "weird" to people. When I see "different".....it is just from my norm and I totally get that they see me the same way! I find people fascinating and I have learned a lot by listening and observing BUT ......I can enjoy them based on " I don't have to live 24/7" with them. I can also walk away, respectfully, from "toxic" people......and even God knows there are toxic people( they try to take the sunshine right out of your day)......it is my part to be kind and avoid.....it takes a savior to help those who don't/ won't help themselves....and there are LOTS of those too.....and I am by no means a savior....I thankfully, gratefully defer to the one and only.
This denial business is tough stuff. Recognizing/ dealing with it is bad enough .........then we get smacked with our own! WTH? My own denial of my H's denial has dragged this circus on long enough. We "effect" each other.....marriage DOES JUST THAT. It uplifts. It doesn't STOMP all over another human being. I am amazed when I look at some of the "incidences" that have taken place in my marriage.......you teach people how to treat you......and my silence did just that.
Some Good Points Made Here Zapp
Submitted by kellyj on
This is where words and meanings can get you into trouble? I was thinking what you said about the word "weird"? I use this word all the time when referring to myself ( calling myself a Weird-o ) as said....being somewhat factitious and just making fun of myself in a light hearted way? In fact.....I refer to myself a lot in what sounds self deprecating...but I really don't see myself that was in reality...but it also takes the "negative" aspects of the word and put's it more on simmer instead of as a "judgment"? I'm not actually judging myself when I say I'm a weirdo....I'm just applying it as to say I'm a little stranger than most sometimes but admittedly so? Strange or unfamiliar could also be applied? The word itself....is not negative...it is just a synonym for different, strange, unusual or any other means to define the definition? That would be me in all accounts so I don't care what word you use right? But in common language...it can also be used as a disparaging remark which is the only thing negative about the word "weird". So in reference to above....do I think Lux Interiors had something wrong with him and because of that...he was "weird". No...not at all? But when you have a guy...who dresses in women skin tight black rubber pants, wear's women high heel ( pumps ), no top, and uses his microphone as a phallic "weapon"....putting it down his pants while rolling around on the stage and allowing the audience to grope him while he's sprawling on his hands and knees.... and doing spastic gymnastics ( and erotic physical gestures ) and singing at the same time ( alternating the microphone in his pants and then singing into it alternating between the two )...I would call that at the very minimum....."out of the norm"....compared to most music groups I've seen? LOL ( and then some lol ).....so when I say "weirdo"...and using it in the same way as I use it on myself....."strange" would be a better descriptive word...all said and done? "Unfamiliar behavior"....without a doubt!! LOL
But with all due respect to Lux himself....the audience ( along with me too ) had come to expect this as part of the show which was part of the "Schtick"....but not all "Schick" in this case as he said so himself (in the reference I made? ) I'm not sure what that was all about? But it made for great entertainment in a kind of "off the wall" and semi perverted kind of way? lol Like I was saying....you can get away with a lot....if you do it with "intergrity" and it is not just a "Persona" you put on the audience? With Lux....that was not ALL stage persona if you get what I am saying? lol But I would also not say he was toxic...unless you are predisposed to doing harm to others in this way? He was not gay for sure but as far as the womens high heels and skin tight rubber pants with no shirt on? You got me??? But it did make for a great show and the audience Loved it? LOL Male and female....which was even stranger because the majority of "gropers" as far as I saw...were women not men?LOL
All I can say is....diversity is a good thing and there is nothing wrong with being different or even a little strange and unfamiliar? Variety is the spice of life....how boring would be if everyone was exactly the same? Like "Ground Hog Day" I grew up in? Boring is not even close to describing that experience and there was not much good I could say about everything being the same...all the time?
Same food, same rituals and routines, same entertainment choices and options ( restaurants, activities, holiday traditions...traditions, traditions, traditions.........) same same same and no change ever?
Given the choice between familiar ( and what is not strange or weird? )...I'd go see "The Cramps".....any day of the week ( and twice on Sundays ) instead of sitting through the same old traditions and rituals year after year (with no change what so ever)....in a heart beat!!! And then some?? LOL All work and no play...makes Jack a dull boy. ( As well as with Jacks house ) where nothing ever changes? In that respect..and in respect to the word "weird"? "Weird" is WAY better than "Dull"....if you can see it that way:)
J
FYI: I've also seen a "The Talking Heads, Grateful Dead and Kiss too" by the way? Concerts were and still are...one of my favorite forms of entertainment going back to the first one I ever saw at age 13 years old? Guess who??? Ozzy Osborne and none other than Black Sabbath? I was hooked you might say....from that moment on? Nothing like "Live" music and 'live" entertainment....it's just not the same hearing it come through a speaker and the energy that is created....in the moment which is what that experience is all about ( in reality "Live" ). Can't beat it...as said? ;)
J
My daughter
Submitted by DependentOrigination on
Actually is a gender and sexuality advocate and so has spent a lot of time with people who have actual mental health issues. For her, having ADHD will not be something to deny, but something to embrace. I have no fear of that, except for the way I already envision it playing out in the day to day of her life. LOL. God bless the person who takes her on as her intimate partner.
For me, the statement "I will not be treated as an afterthought" is the essence of it all. I believe in the institution of marriage. I went into it wholeheartedly, bought the farm, changed my name, at the age of 35, when you think I would be over the impulsivity of youth (obviously not, lol). So for me, the next few years will be spend reconciling and really understanding (so that I don't act again with impulsivity) whether my relationship with my husband is enough to be considered a marriage, or if I truly need to move on, for the good of myself and the people around me. I don't want to hurt those around me, because of my own difficulty in my most intimate relationships.
I sincerely hope you are the wife of someone's youth, that you find love as glorious and as blazing as you have always hoped for. When I was 23 years old, for four years, I had the kind of romance that people dream of. Sadly, my boyfriend developed depression, quit working, quit moving forward. And I had to ask him to leave, because I was enabling his dysfunction. But true love is out there, and it is a beautiful thing. I wish you the best of luck in finding the love you have missed out on over these many years. Thank you for your words of support.
DO.......Coming Full Cricle Back to You Here
Submitted by kellyj on
In my last comment....I realized what I do almost automatically by running through this program I have running in my head that I realized I learned a long time ago and I kind of don't think about it consciously any more? But in order to explain it....I had to do again to say what I wanted to say and I came right back to what I know? Again! lol
The question you asked.....How to make an ally of your enemy? So in order to tell you how....I have to change hats so to speak...and take on a different persona? This is my self talk speaking now...and it comes in the form a coach? I learned to speak this language from my coach...so I will adopt this lingo and speak from that place to you as if I am speaking to you as a coach not a parent figure, not someone better or worse than you....but someone who is there to tell you HOW. That's what a coaches job is? They are a therapist and they aren't there to hold you hand...they are simply there to motivate you and tell you how which is what a coach does for you and since I don't know how to say this in any other terms....I have to change hats and put on the one I know? Fair enough?
As said. You are your own worst enemy in everything first off. Only you can fail.....your self and if YOU are that enemy...then it is you who needs to befriend or find ally with yourself? First. Before you can do that with anyone else? It will just happen on it;s own and you need to look inward....not outward for those answers? First off and foremost....first?
What I said about ownership....is a concept that is not really easy to understand? Im sports....everyone not on your "team" is the enemy right? But even in respect to individual sports where there is no team.....you still have an enemy so to speak.....but your opponent is not it? You are the only enemy in existence here....so in respect to hurting and pain....only you can control the pain and the hurt that is imposed on you with anything. You must overcome your own pain and hurt....to actual play the game and be in the game? You can't win...if you are not....in the game? And so to win at making allies.....you have to be in the game...and you have to beat yourself first...before you can beat anyone else? Of course.....your opponent is just like you? They are not your enemy..and neither they with you? You need to take your emotions...and learn to put them aside for the time being if you are going to play the game? Your emotions and especially anger or hatred...will only cause you to fail? You can't beat your enemy ...if you under estimate them or hate them? You have to see them as better than you and you need to consider they have more of everything that you do...in order to beat them? This requires a great deal of respect for them...and respect...if you let up for a moment...they will take the opportunity to win and beat you and this is where you have to own all your weakness's...and come to terms with them? When you succumb to your own weakness's.....you will fail at the game? When you don't own your own weakness's....you will under estimate your opponent? If you do not own your own weakness's....and own them as part of you......then you can own all your parts...and become greater than the sum or your parts...and become greater than the whole of who you are instead of looking at those parts...and thinking you have to get rid of the weak ones...in order to win the game? Getting rid of the weaker parts....or focusing on them...will only cause you to separate yourself from your own weakness's and this will lead to disaster on the field? It will cause you to look at your opponent in the same way....the sum of their weakness's....instead of the sum of their strengths? You are both..and so are they...and if you can't see their strengths....then they will beat you in this case? In all things like this....in every confrontation imaginable....you have to become greater.....than the sum of your parts...and if you can do this with yourself....then you will no longer be your own worst enemy? And when you can do that......you will win at being an ally and a friend and a valuable asset to them and they will no longer see you as enemy...but a ally or friend to be cherished? You will be an asset to yourself and your team mates and no one will be your enemy anymore? You will have no enemies....when you stop being your own worst one because it's the only you really have since....everyone else is exactly the same as you are in this way and they are fighting against the same things in themselves? This is the only resistance you really have with other people ( or your opponent )...their fight with themselves....and you with yours? When you stop fighting against yourself and become your own best friend.....there are no enemies left to fight...and everyone will be your ally ....not just your husband? If you are trying to raise the bar to include just your husband.....you will be setting the bar too low....and not shooting for the stars instead?
No "too much of a good thing"....including this again but in context to the HOW part here in context to the answer to your question?
https://youtu.be/DSVnbxDWOPU2nR3reKPE5Y
https://youtu.be/tdmyoMe4iHM
Its going to take some time
Submitted by DependentOrigination on
Before I come to terms with this or accept this. It might take a few more lessons. I was always stubborn. I agree that I need to be whole, in and of myself. But I am less comfortable with taking that to the extreme, that self sufficiency and islandhood is the only way to personal happiness. Yes, my parents will die, yes, my friends might betray me, yes my husband might leave me or our relationship might continue in mediocrity for perpetuity, but the world is a kinder, and softer place. If I can't find that softness or kindness or warmth or support or love or connection or light or inspiration from my husband, I will find it another way, through all the good things that exist in the world. I don't want to be a silo, or even a self contained being. Yes, I want to be strong, to minimize the hurt I cause other people. But I want to connect, on that intrinsically human way, with the world around me.
Its not always a battle. Sometimes I choose to bypass the game.