I am happy with a bit of improvement I have seen thus far.
I just completed the couples course by myself as my husband would not join me in the live course but we have listened to 3 sessions together afterwards but he will not do any more sessions.
SO I have been working on myself and have come to several aha moments. I have changed at least 10 things about myself and have been sticking to it. I have been evaluating everything that I say and do now since about a month or so ago when the aha moments sunk in and I was ready to implement them.
So this “rant” is the result of trying to have a “learning conversation” (part of the course). At least this is how I interpreted that to mean and tried to have one with my spouse.
Husband agreed to take the kitchen trash (one 13 gallon bag) out on Thursdays- after a very rough learning conversation. I expressed my utter distaste for that task. I mentioned calmly that I take out the compost, the other household trash-2 offices, 2 bathrooms,2 in bedroom, and 3 misc trash in other rooms weekly. He was very agreeable and said he would do it happily. Then he immediately turned to an angry stance about why should he and how unfair it was as he is the one supporting us and he shouldn't have to do any chores. He said I was beating the subject to death especially when I asked that he not put the trash in the open bed of the truck where the crows, raccoons etc decimate it or leave it exposed in the trash area when several empty bins were available. I guess I should have not said that part as he retorted that I was busting his bX*&s. I am being honest when I say I did not provoke this response. I calmy explained the reasons why this incomplete method of trash removal caused more mess, smell and complaints from neighbors and how it made me feel. The result was he begrudgingly put a reminder in his phone to do it at noon on Thursdays something he came up with. He suggested the day and time. I agreed calmly.
So he has done that chore for about 3 weeks ( I responded with thanks and praise) with one of the weeks -he used his judgment as trash barrel was not full yet so he did it on Saturday when it was full. He mentioned that and I responded that I did notice it, praised him and thanked him a day or so later again for doing that. I also said I was so very appreciate and that it had made me very happy.I said you are correct why take the trash if it isn't full yet.
Yesterday he took the one bag out and left it in the hall at about 10 am.
I came down from my home office and saw it there after he had left for work.
I did something “different” as was stressed in the course.
- I did not complete the task of taking it out to the trash outside.(I usually do out of frustration)
- And I did not go “ballistic” about why a single bag of trash couldn't get taken out.
The bag stayed there for several hours.The down side would have been it starting to smell.The dog could have ripped it and eaten chicken bones etc. but luckily the dog was with him all day so she did not get to it.
When I came down from my home office at 6pm for dinner the bag was gone.
So I had to adjust my expectations about how and when it was done- that is not according to my standards but it was taken out. I realize he could be testing me. I also realize that because of the ADHD he got distracted and “forgot” that it was there. I had heard him go in and out several times before he finally left for work- which is usual as he gets out to the truck and realizes he has forgot something- each time he walked by the bag he had left there. Our trash bin is in an area outside is near the driveway and although he doesn't walk by it it is not a large detour to put the trash in the bin and then get in the truck. But this did not happen this am
Also I should note that I had put a new lace curtain in a large window above the sink in the kitchen 2 days ago. I know he had not noticed it yet even though he had been at the sink several times. He still had not noticed it last night when we were in the kitchen together. I was desperate for a compliment as I had sewed it. I asked him if he liked the new curtain I sewed and installed. He then said that he had not even noticed. Then he said yes he liked it.
So him not noticing the trash bag after he had put it there himself in the hall really is typical behavior for him.
I struggled to understand that but after the couples course I now understand that the ADHD brain is wired very differently than mine.
Also he still is very rebellious and defiant (at 65!) than the most rebellious teenager you know.
All in all, I believe that this is a sign of improvement and am encouraged.
I neglected to compliment him about it last night at dinner (my bad) but I did compliment him this am. And I am not sure if I praise him another time say on Saturday about it again if that will be overboard in the praise department?
Does anyone have any comment or similar thoughts about suddenly noticing a change in their spouse and how to be genuine about praise?
Or how to cope with realizing that my way is not the end all of how to do stuff correctly?
Or about an ADHD spouse not noticing “stuff”.? In the past literally I have re-arranged the entire living room and he has not noticed for 2 weeks. So I think I have a “tough nut to crack”.
I also appreciate any validation as I am very needy in that department as I have been dismissed and invalidated for most of the marriage .Thanks in advance.
Eyekahlo......Learning Conversations and Setting an Example
Submitted by kellyj on
I am getting to the point of recognizing some things in what you said which does sound optimistic and is a good sign I think? You mentioned several points here that I can apply to myself and my wife ...as well as what you said about learning conversations? My wife and I did the couples course as well and here I have made some interesting correlatives with her behaviors in resect to mine and how we approach things and see things differently. This might be interesting for you to hear as well in terms of the differences, and the common components here and how they might appear different dependent on gender in many respects? I want to tie this in with learning conversations and what I have actually "learned" ( lol ) by using them successfully? It's also interesting to hear you say you became frustrated with trying this with the example you gave with the trash but as I hear you..and how you interpreted a "learning conversation"....I almost got the impression that you were treating it more as a "teaching conversation" instead? ( kind of the opposite of it;s intended purpose?) Put simply......a learning conversation is for YOU to learn from what your husband is saying? Not for him to learn from you? If that makes sense? It's purpose isn't to "learn" from each other...or teach anything to anyone? It's purpose is to "interpret"...or ...."bridge the gap DURING as conversation while it;s happening....to gain a new understanding ( only ) of what the other person is saying? The end result is that YOU actually learned something different that the words might have said to you and acts as that interpreter....but makes them interpret themselves for you by forcing the other person....to rephrase or re-word what was said differently ( in other words....Literally!!! lol )..so you can gain insight and understanding as the net result? In a sense.....that is all it's designed to do? I will say this again in other words to say it differently so you will understand what I am saying....but I'm doing this without you having to input or ask anything of me....which is actually what the learning conversation does?
So to give you the answer or reply to a learning question.....one would say..." As I hear you? I understand that what a learning conversation does...or as it sounds like to you...is that it doesn't teach the other person anything? Is that what you are saying? And if so....you are also saying that the value or benefit from using this technique...is for me to learn something not my husband...Is that correct?"
That would be your "response" in a learning conversation to everything I just said? It's a response.....not necessarily and intro or the first person that speaks in a learning conversation? In other words....your husband says something that you are unclear in what he meant? You have more questions or more information you want out of him...but he might be reluctant or unwilling to give normally? Especially if you were to start questioning him as it sounds like you did? It is a more indirect kind of approach....which this intermediary step which is actually responding by asking for clarification more than anything else...which is the only thing you are asking for in context?
It asks a question ( from you ) to the other person...so they can say what they said back to you now differently......OR.......confirm that you heard it right...and you hear them correctly? That's it? If anyone learns anything from using this technique....it's you...not the other person? Just to start?
I'm kind of unclear here and I am just saying I got this sense...without you actually saying it but without an "real example" or you attempt....so I could see what you "literally" said? Like in quotes in other words? Your situation you described with the trash is so familiar to me....that I really can put this into context with myself in the same situation ( as if I was him here ) and put this learning conversation to work to show you an example and possible critique? That is "critique" not criticize!!!! LOL And before I say one more word here......I totally believe you when you said you did not provoke him? I can't tell you HOW MUCH.....I absolutely believe you since I am now in the same situation with my wife and I know this drill very well? And because I believe you...and I recognize the same things happening....I'll start by saying that the learning conversation if used sparingly...is really great as means or tool to use at certain times....but not all the time...and not too much? And at the right time....and done in a more subtle and less direct way? Causally speaking...in a causal way?
I will give you one thing I came to realize after my wife and I were took the couples course together however that is both disheartening and frustrating in the aftermath and I will sight my reason to support what I am saying?
First you need to understand my wife better as far as her attachment style as said? An Avoidant attachment style whether disorganized, fearful, or dismissive ( the 3 sub groups of avoidant ) by their very nature ( inherent nature, built in and "set"....and their ongoing style which from this starting place is not going to change ever. or change to a different style other than "secure" as the only option for change? It has a set pattern of behavior that is rooted into their personality and is likely never to change much unless they become "Secure"...in their attachment style after changing it from an "insecure' one from the start? It starts out "insecure" ( as these style denote ...as assumed ) since the only style that is not "insecure"....is "secure"....by definition? That's the stated goal...in this respect for any of these styles? To go from insecure....to ....secure.......but not to change from one style to another other than secure if I said this well?
So within what you described with your husband and the trash example....I do recognize the components or an "avoidant" style in the same way I see this in my wife as well? By definition...an "Avoidant" style......."avoids" !!! LOL Simply put? In a very general...but surprisingly accurate and consistent ( across the board ) as their pattern in most everything not just one place and not another? Is is "systemic" and incorporated into the entire package of all behaviors and can be traced to the source...by using it that way?
So if you take that simply put...and apply it your husbands behavior and what he says.....I see the pattern and the responses and this is what I recognize? And the thing that triggers these behaviors to emerge...is stress and anxiety which is really when you see it come out.....even if it sits "dormant" otherwise? So in context.....these moments of stress and when you see this pattern emerge.....if you can see this as his "Dragon"...or ..."Demon"....in terms that are familiar....you are in essense....going up against his "Dragon" here ...in these moments and that is who this "battle" is being waged over in his mind. It is from this very insecurity....that the battle is being waged? If you can see it that way....you might see better what YOU yourself are up against here so you can know how to apply the learning conversation better with better results?
So in terms of his "Dragon"...so to speak....this Dragon doesn't;t like to share information and wants to not talk about anything to do with emotions and feelings and disclosing them to you?( period ) It really wants to avoid doing that "intensely"...and not share anything with you at all and would rather you just "shut up"...and not say anything right from the start? That's what the Dragon wants...for you to shut up...and not say anything and just be left...well enough alone? This Dragon is...."tight lipped"....."closed off or close to the vest"....and is very uncomfortable about sharing any details about it's actions or behaviors..and really doesn't want any feedback to what it is doing. AT ALL!!!!
So no matter what you ask, want or any input that you might have to offer....is already too much for the Dragon..and the second the Dragon hears anything along these lines....the Dragon wants to avoid you...avoid the conversation...and avoid any exchange with you at all....PERIOD!!! Done deal ( I'm outa here..and shut up while your're at it )...as far as the Dragon is concerned?? That will always be the answer...coming from this particular (Horses? ) mouth if the Dragon were to "speak" directly to you? "Shut up!!!"....would be simpler.....but kind of "too BLUNT" and the Dragon knows that too?
So if you can it that way...and see the Dragon...as not being your husband....but what your husband is battling with inside of him? You are never going to hear the Dragon directly...but you will here it indirectly speaking and talking to you that way? Very cloaked or veiled in disguise you might say? But will never come out in terms of what you husband says...because the Dragon is running interference her...and intercepting your husband thoughts...and replacing them with his own? He will only show himself...in times under stress or anxiety....so you got your husband speaking sometimes...and the Dragon....speaking other times instead? And that is when you need an interpreter...and the learning conversation is a good means to do it I have found between what you husband is saying...and what the Dragon ..is saying..so you can actually "learn" for yourself how to interpret the two? That's what I found so useful to me....even if my wife is not on board the same as your husband?
If I use the same metaphor for my wife? In the Dragons mind and eye.....the Dragon wants for me....to learn how to do these things so the Dragon can avoid doing it and so my wife won't have to? Her entire outlook and approach to the class we took...is the she didn't need to know this information or utilize it herself? She ( or her Dragon ) was looking at it from the other direction in that....I was the one who needed to use the tools.....not her? I needed to learn how and learn the tools and methods.....because the Dragon doesn't;t want to...doesn't;t what to think about it...and wants to avoid the entire process if it involves the Dragon in any way?
And the second you said your husband really didn't want to follow through with the course and applying it and just eneded up avoiding it....speaks directly to what I am saying here? As well as ....avoiding taking the trash out.......avoiding giving you an answer to why he doesn't put it in the trash bin.....avoiding doing it in the first place....avoiding having to discuss the reason why he does it his way......avoiding saying "anything period "....and would rather ...."just not at all"...and completely avoid you and anything do with this "trash thing"...that has to do with "talking" on his part. Period?
That includes but not limited to: avoiding talking to you about it....... avoiding having to discuss it.......avoiding giving you any answers you might ask or pose to him.......avoiding any questions you might ask to attain any answers he is avoiding on giving you..........as well as avoiding participating in a learning conversation....the class material......or anything.....that would create a feeling of stress or anxiety for him period!! This Dragon.....HATES anything that causes stress or anything stressful what so ever not matter what...but especially,......anything "touchy feely" or has to do with talking about emotions or feelings or anything of that nature? This Dragon...would rather "die first"...than do that with you so instead....the Dragon has come up with a number of different methods in stone walling you and avoiding or side stepping the conversation in it's ENTIRETY!!! That is the goal...and what the Dragon truly wants in any and all situations or conditions that involve "stress" in any way? And one of these methods...I recognized in your husbands response...which is the right time and place to apply the learning conversation I'm thinking?
It's like the Dragon himself...becomes a ventriloquist..and is speaking (through) your husband in this moments...without your husbands awareness of it? He is hiding behind your (husband) so to speak...but doing all the talking? That is a really good analogy here...to put this into perspective? That is the battle being waged inside your husband.....who's going to do the talking....and who is the Boss here? In respect to the Dragon...the Dragon wants to be the Boss at all times....but your husband is constantly fighting him off ...or just chasing his tale....in an effort to NOT saying anything ( which you husband would sooner "die" first....as said ) so the Dragon does the talking for him...and that's who you are speaking to?
You said this at the closing of your post here E...I also appreciate any validation as I am very needy in that department as I have been dismissed and invalidated for most of the marriage .
And right off the bat....the word "dismissed" appears here as what it feels like to you? As in: Dismissive / Avoidant perhaps? I'm guessing her in context.. from the result of what his Dragon feels like (or sense you get )because that is your husband's Dragons.....name? ( or sub catagory or Avoidant )
So I guess if I can validate you at all here......by saying you are not imagining things here? And....you are not the cause of his Dragon either...so when I say I believe you....I really do believe you and then some? I have become very familiar with my wife's Dragon....and hers shares the same name? And...I can also say that none of what the Dragon says...is going to be very accurate or "speak"...directly to the problem....in an effort to avoid it now...or in the future because...."talking about it"......or ......even "hearing about it"....is not what my wife's Dragon wants? Period!!! End of discussion?
So I hope that clarifies this and validates you some in knowing without question.....you did nothing to bring this on or bring this out on your husband.....if you want to blame something here....blame the Dragon for a start!!!! LOL For sure for sure!!!! It's the failure on the Dragons part...and the failure of your husband not even being aware that the Dragon is ( in charge or who's Boss and pulling his stings ) not your husband in a cognitive sense or his own awareness of it? All he knows is what the Dragon feels like and he doesn't;t like the feeling and so he avoids the Dragon himself and denies it's existence inside him? The Dragon in other words...is running amok and answers to "know one". Basically....this particular Dragon....wants to remain out of sight and out of mind..and out of the line of fire and remain comfortably hidden from view....and anything that threatens the Dragon or tries to prevent him from remain exactly where he is...in charge and...the boss....is going to be met with heavy resistance?
A "tough "nut" to crack"....is putting it mildly? How about....a fierce Dragon to do battle with.....is more like it...... speaking in the same terms? That's what you are up against...and that is who is doing the "talking" and the one "in charge"?
So in your husbands response to you in that moment of anger when the Dragon started "speaking out".....from where it was actually your husband doing the talking first when he was agreeable...until the Dragon decided to get his two bits into the conversation? That's the time to pull the learning conversation out...and use it as an interpreter but with no guarantees for sure? I hope you are with me to this point so I can give you an example here in how I would apply it to the Dragon...and less your husband in this case?
You said here He was very agreeable and said he would do it happily. That was your husband doing the talking here in this example?
And now....."Enter the Dragon" ( ha! had to throw that in since it's soooo appropriate!! What can I say?? lol )
Then he immediately turned to an angry stance about why should he and how unfair it was as he is the one supporting us and he shouldn't have to do any chores. That...was ALL Dragon talking...when he splits into two separate entities and the Dragon takes over you might say? This is the Dragon...just whining and pointing and making shit up because the Dragon is a poor sport and is like a little dismissive baby / child who never got his way...and is still angry out that? And is now still getting his two bits in to every conversation..and is butting into the process. If you can see the Dragon...as kind of an unreasonable spoiled child....which is not really not about being spoiled at all...but as a result of being abused or neglected...and never did get what he wanted in that situation as a child instead? Even though as I have found myself.....this little brat of a child who was abused.....really does the opposite of exciting any sympathy from you....and kind goes in the other direction and only pisses you off instead which makes it difficult to have very much compassion or empathy...with an out of control Dragon...who acts out like a spoiled brat sometimes in an effort to gain attention...but doing it that way instead? The WRONG WAY.....for sure....it that's the intended results as far as how the Dragon is approaching you? Kind of the opposite...is actually very accurate indeed?
But speaking now about the dragon that way.....what the Dragon "wants"...is sympathy? ( for having it so "bad" or "so hard"...because he was dismissed himself ......and now its "your turn" the Dragon says!! In open defiance....from the Dragons "infant" days? )
He said I was beating the subject to death especially when I asked that he not put the trash in the open bed of the truck where the crows, raccoons etc decimate it or leave it exposed in the trash area when several empty bins were available. I guess I should have not said that part as he retorted that I was busting his bX*&s.
See what I said here? The Dragon doesn't;t care about what you want ever!!! Adding in what you want to this already burdensome task...is just pig piling on the poor Dragon here and the Dragon doesn't;t like that? The Dragon wants to feel sorry for himself...and is enlisting you to feel sorry too? What you want is not only superflous to what the Dragon wants...it goes 'against" what the Dragon wants so no.....you should not have said that? The Dragon doesn't;t care what you want ever!!!! Doesn't care...how you want it...or any reasons as to why? This only makes the Dragon angry and will cause the Dragon to do MORE of what he does...not less? What the Dragon wants is always more important and that's the bottom line. The Dragon...is a wounded child....who never got what he wanted or needed ( neglected and dismissed himself as a child ) ...and is looking for ways to get that "NOW".....through your husband the grown man who doesn't realize the Dragon is in their hiding and pulling his strings and is attempting to take control of him? So anything that gets in the way of what the Dragon wants....will be dismissed immediately unless the Dragon feels safe and can stay in hiding where it wants to stay? And the last and worst thing you can do with the Dragon...is question the Dragon and his methods and motives? That will always lead to hostility...as far as the Dragon is concerned and what the Dragon wants. Remember...the Dragon......never wants to talk about it.....and never wants to hear about it....and never wants to discuss it.......EVER!!! Period!!! End of discussion ( as said by the Dragon himself? ) That's what the Dragon wants at all times....to keep this in the fore front of you mind to remind yourself of this? Anything that threatens what the Dragon wants...will get you know where fast!!!!!
Every time your husband says Yes....the Dragon immediately says NO......I don't want that!!! I'm the victim here...and I need you to feel sorry for me!!!! The Dragon does not feel sorry for you ever so you are wasting you time looking for sympathy...or waiting for the Dragon to give you compliments? The Dragon needs the compliments....NOT YOU!!! YOU selfish person!!!!! ( as the Dragon says? )
The Dragon says."Look at all I have to do here? Can't you see how much of a problem that is for me!!!! What about me.!!!! "....is the first thought that crosses the Dragons mind at all times ( or comes out in it's various forms ) so putting what you want into these moments will be met with pissing the Dragon off every single time!!!! And will pretty much ensure....you will be dismissed just like the Dragon was as a means to show you "how it feels" The Dragon ( doesn't say this ) but the Dragon is going to show you......"how it feels to be Dismissed" ...,"Like me!!!!!.....Because what happened to me wasn't;t fair....And I want you to see how it feels...so you will understand how I feel!!!." Because the last thing the Dragon will ever say....is that to your face which is the truth but you will never hear it from the Dragon himself? The Dragon is all about....showing how it feels by making you feel this way...in order to teach you how it feels so you will learn something ...or learn a lesson.....since this is at the core of what the Dragon truly wants. To show you how it feels to be mistreated and neglected like me...and how bad is ..and how horrible it all is.....and is still feeling that same way to day....but has no idea as far as your hubby in concerned....that the Dragon is still in their doing this...or any awareness the the Dragon even exists inside him? That's because the Dragon...doesn't;t want anyone to know her is there....including your husband.....that's the Dragons goal here?
So at the point of Enter the Dragon here in your example? This is how the learning conversation might have gone just to show you? And in the same respect to my wife as is your husband I am deducting from the same thing I see? I can tell you where I go wrong..and that my "thang" is or what my Dragon looks like which is exactly what my wifes Dragon doesn't like?
My "thang" or automatic response ( without my awareness )...which I was programmed and conditioned to do ( My Dragon )...is to make sense out of the irrational and respond in kind ( automatically ) by rationalizing the irrational...as my immediate response?
So in terms of my wife's Dragon....the last thing it wants to hear is some reasonable, rational explanation to it the things it says since these automatic thoughts that pop out of here mouth...as irrational, negative, catastrophic, ,minimizing and dismissive and contrary....and she avoids hearing anything to the contrary to keep this negative cycle alive in her head? They call these AT's or automatic thoughts which is the language here Dragon speaks?( without awareness of them )
Mine on the other hand...are to counter these thoughts with reasonable, rational explanations.....also know as AKA: Splain'in. To explain the irrational and illogical...by replacing these negative AT's my wife's Dragon is speaking with something "logical". As my T has pointed out to me....."sometimes it's a good thing to rationalize or share it.....but sometimes not? As a means to explain things to yourself...it's generally speaking ...not a bad thing most of the time especially in a means to explain the irrational.....but when it comes to sharing it with other people....this becomes more tricky? Some people may appreciate it ( like you ) and some may not? But in general.....to do it automatically like my tendency is to share it with everyone equally ....will get you into trouble. " The key here ( for me is at least ) know when to keep my mouth shut and in a general way.....don't do anything automatically unless you know exactly what you are doing and apply it judiciously with aware that you are doing it. " As put?
This is in essence......trying to teach people things without actually having that intention? It may sound as if I am lecturing....which is how it comes across at times....but mostly...if there is an intention at all behind it.....it is merely trying to understand by putting it out there first...and waiting for a response that will tell me what the other person is thinking or if they disagree with what I said in some way? It requires feedback...and it also requires and answer in that respect in that way.....it is asking something without asking sometimes...and putting the other person in the position of having to respond in kind....with a like "logical or rational response"? And when they don't....it feels like I am being condescending or belittling to them since...they can't respond sometimes....or worse.....DON'T WANT T0 respond...which narrows down the categories here for my wife? Her Dragon......NEITHER......has a response.....or wants to in the first place!!!! LOL That's the problem!!!!
The last thing her Dragon wants to hear....is me telling it what I think...or giving it anything it can't use....like Logic or reason or anything rational? Last thing on the list....even though for someone else...it may the first thing they want to here instead? For me....being able to tell the difference has always been difficult....but further.....understanding a person like my wife in respect to her Dragon who last thing it wants to here is Logic, reason, and rationalizing....is an offense. It sounds "judgmental" for me to do this....because the label and definitions required to do so....sound like I am judging her when I'm not? I'm merely trying to put what she said into reasonable understandable terms in a rational way.....and THAT RIGHT THERE....is the last and worst thing to hear for her Dragon!!!
And as my T has also pointed out to me....that if she doesn't like it.....then "stop doing it!!!!" As he would say " It doesn't matter how logical and rational is in what your saying.....if someone is being irrational and illogical...and your using that to counter their illogical view or irrational view....this feels very disrespectful to their illogic or unreasonableness.....no matter how logical it is so then......why do it if they don't like it?" Simply put?
The problem for me is more often than not.....I was kind of programmed to respond with "rationalizations" to help counter someone standing in front of me being completely emotionally out of control or irrational ie: My own mother. Simply put!!! LOL And I've got to tell you....it didn't work with her either!!! LOL You'd think I'd learn? But that's the point...I was trained to respond with logic or reationalizing.....not as a means for excuse ( as it could be ) but as a means to counter emotionally irrational illogical demands or requests....in order to make sense of the irrational...the illogical...and the emotional "highly charged"....which by definition....makes no sense what so ever and if almost impossible to do? So therefore....why do it if it doesn't work with someone like this? That the point? It may make sense to you.....but nothing is to them so why waste your time? With me......I kind of do it automatically so...with in the idea of not doing things without awareness....doing it automatically is not good for me either? That's the challenge laid down by my T but especially with my wife. Stop doing.....my "Thang"....as he has said in code...which means....stop your splain'in...to counter my wife's "illogical,irrational and emotionally based reasoning" since it will only lead to me fighting her Dragon for her. ( or making an attempt even If I am, not aware of what is happening )...since her her Dragon doesn't like that one tiny bit...and it's the last thing her Dragon wants to hear?
So that brings me to the learning conversation. In the moment of "Enter the Dragon"....out pops the things your husband is saying...and out pops these "rationalizations" ( instead of rationalizing the illogical or irrational in his head first and replacing those with some more reasonable and logical instead of these "rationalizations" ) as said....but they are in effect....illogical or irrational....and speaking from the Dragons mouth. The Dragons is not using rational thought...and is using these AT automatic negative "lies"...which are really defense mechanisms that are coming from the Dragon or unresolved things that have yet to have a reasonable rational explanation to them?
So back to this statement Then he immediately turned to an angry stance about why should he and how unfair it was as he is the one supporting us and he shouldn't have to do any chores.
To give you an example here...it might go like " I hear you feel it unfair that you have to work a job full time..and have to do house chores too? If that what you are saying? I also hear you say...that you are wondering why you should have to do it if this in our situation since ( you may not work a full time job (or not)...or maybe you are a stay at home mom...or what ever...fill in the blanks )and I am hearing that your work load is more than mine ( requires more effort, more time, more input into it ) when you are considering doing house chore, working full time and doing all the things you need to do compared to what you see me doing and what my work load is like? It that what I hear you saying or am I wrong in how I interpreted what you said?
And then you wait for the answer and listen to what he says? You can interpet freely here and add into anything you think he is getting at ( or leading him as well ) but the beauty of this in that respect....you aren't saying this is what you heard.....it's saying....this is what it sounds like to me...but I could be wrong and I'm needing clarification? It's not attack...or questioning them...as much as coming from a neutral position and admitting..."Gee I don't really understand...but I'm trying to but I need you to help me understand...because what you said appears unclear to me?" And then allow them to say it to you "in other words"....tell you how you didn't hear that right and this is what I meant now....." which in essence....you are narrowing it down for them ( like 20 questions ) but doing it a way that doesn't feel like you are "questioning them". Avoid "questioning" at all costs!!! And avoid putting them on the spot...and expecting a reasonable answer because that is being unreasonable on your part...even if you don't realize why?
And I just wanted to throw my two bits into this coming from myself about myself here that has nothing to with my wife? You made a couple of mentions in here..and one of them was wondering if he was testing you? The other one was where you were waiting for him to notice the curtains so you would get a compliment?
First off......waiting for him to notice something you've done so you will get a compliment is kind of fishing in an pond with no fish in it first off? I've got to say even from point of view.....if you did the curtains for you and what you thought looked nice.....and if he has no interest in curtains or patterns of fabric or anything of that nature....you are kind of being presumptuous in thinking...that he even cares about such things to begin with...when the fact of the matter is.....it could be Burlap...as far as that goes...and he might not be able to even tell the difference? Truely? For me....I'm an Artist..and I notice such things....but most guys I know ADHD or not......could not tell if the walls were Tuape, Mauve or Pruple...and probably would say it looks like "dirt"...or something along that order!!! LOL Because really...they are not invested in it at all...and to require them to be just because you are....is actually pretty unrealistic because for them....it really doesn't matter and they just don't care? It's not that they don't care...as in a 'caring sense"....it's just that they aren't invested in it at all...and it really doesn't matter to them and it's just not their "thang". Requiring it to be ( their "thang") because it's your "tang"....is both presumptuous...and kind of unredeemable in the details of such thing which is less to do with ADHD...and more to do with what "guys" in general...are either interested in ...or NOT interested in and I can tell you...there is world of difference out there in that one.....you can be sure of that without question in a general sense?
So by responding back to the "rationalizations" and using the learning conversation instead.....you are representing what it sounds like to you back to them as you hear it....and giving them the chance to say" Oh...that's not what I really meant? And it forces them to think about what it sounds like...compared to what was said....so they can make sense of it to you...instead of you trying to this this "for them". In the same way....when I respond to my wife by giving her my rationalizing or making sense of what she said....I'm doing it for her...and she doesn't like it....Not one tiny bit?
The learning conversation.....gives them a chance...to do this for themselves....by speaking back what it sounds like...in a non threatening way and giving them a chance to think it through again...and come back and give the response that makes more sense.....because it forces them to make sense of it....so you don't have to? Either they respond or they don't..... but you can't make them do anything? And you can make them respond...or make them stop being dismissive? And in that respect....you are getting a different interpretation from the other person ( from them ) and they are in a sense.....learning how to do this on their own? The beauty of this is.....you aren't teaching them anything...but they are learning something too? And you are learning something as well....by listening to what they say in a question form....without actually "questioning them".... If that makes sense?
But in my own effort to validate you here and what you said? I can say this differently which might help make a distinction here as I feel the same way many times? It's not that I want my wife to be interested in what I am interested in ( or show validation that way for me? ) I lack her just showing the interest...as means to validate me...whether she is interested or not? As I pointed out the other day when my wife went on and on about her nails.....which I have 0 intersect in as a topic ( like less than "0" LOL ) but I showed interest any way...but my wife will not do that for me which I think might be related to the same thing? It is kind of like the same thing with the curtains too. If my wife did not come to me and show me her nails....I might not even notice them...but it's not because I don't care about the way my wife looks.....but if I had a preference myself....."Clear."...would be the color I would pick since I'm not into nails and all those doo dads and things and it hold no interest or value to me...what so ever?
I have a right to my opinion too ( and if my opinion is not asked about up front...then there is no way anyone will ever know it, right? ) and I don';t have to share the same one with my wife on anything? That is not a requirement at all? So why should it be one in the first place or have that for an expectation? No reason I can think of but again...that's just me and how I see things?
But she is free to put anything on her body (or nail color she likes and I don't care or am that invested in it since that is a creative process and a means for personal expression and an individual decision anyway. Hers that is....not mine? I have no business or input into that process and It's not my place to say anything? But...I don;t have to like it either?....Or even be interested in nail color at all which I am most decidedly not. She's not doing it for me.....she's doing it for herself so I have no motivation to thank her or compliment her....for doing such a fine job for her self speaking in those terms? In that respect.....she doesn't need validation from me....she needs it for herself in that case? Putting this into perspective?
J
Dragons Lions and Bear Oh My! J Thx
Submitted by eyekahlo on
J
I have just read your comments thru only once and I get it. I will have to go back and digest some more. You have opened my eyes and I am getting closer to the light bulb glowing above me.. I see that my attempts at a learning conversation turned out less than stellar. Your comments are slowly sinking in. It always takes me awhile to get things but once I do I usually do well. I will comment further after I read your post several more times. Thank you immensely-- I am grateful! ALSO I am well acquainted with Dragons having hosted uncountable years of D&D, LARPs and Magic Card sessions in the 1990 and the "naughts" . And Warcraft as well- I had to go in thru the back door to the kitchen on those nights or risk a leg fracture from tripping over computer cords x ing my living & dining room. Little did I know there was Dragon who never moved on. Now I know who is crawling around in my attic on stormy nights. :-)
I have to say that you have pegged my H. Our marriage "T" whom he won't go see anymore mentioned PA. I am now beginning to see and I am pretty upset to the point of tears. But don't get me wrong-I am grateful that you have explained this behavior in more depth to me. I mean the "T" was a bean for an hour and we did double sessions. My new is psychiatrist is $250 per 50 minutes. At that rate I cannot blab on- I am forced to rain my James Joyce style of writing and talking down to bare bones. I think my diatribes are akin to War & Peace & are my way of coping. Also prolly would have killed a dozen Redwoods by now if it were not for Open Office or Word. My journal is thicker than the NYC phone directory if they even have that anymore! :-)
I have attached another rant that I had written before I saw your answer.
Forgive me if I have committed more of the same misunderstandings about what the learning conversation is. I learn very slowly I guess on some things so here goes.
Learning To Express Anger Without Drama-- Did I get it correct this time?
About a month & half ago, my H was upset that I was feeding his new dog at dinnertime. He snapped at me: "Hey, I feed her in the morning." A few days later I saw him feeding her at night. After a few more nights of that, I calmly commented "Oh you feed her at night now?"
He replied "I always feed her at night." The contrast in H 's behavior really confused me after witnessing the two opposing behaviors. Uncharacteristically for me, this time- I did not point this out. It has been typical behavior for H to deny or not recognize what I witnessed. This has made me a little nutty with similar behaviors in the past in other situations.
(What I know to be true & fact ( from direct observation or knowledge), H will dismiss my observations or deny it & in the next breath. When I protest -H says- " I don't doubt what you saw. I don't doubt what you say as being true" Then he says " I am validating you." Then he would go on to say why it wasn't true. In the past, this would prompt me to ask " Well then which is it? Either what I saw is true or it isn't. If you believe what I say to be true then how can you say that it isn't true. Which is it? It can't be both ways." This never ended well.) I SEE NOW J that i was trying to be logical with an illogical dragon beast.
I now think (after I have taken the couples course ALONE -worked on fixing me (ongoing) and stopped the nagging) that this was in response to me nagging him to feed her before. It has been a battleground between us about the dog-but now I understand it is his dog & his responsibility.
We could not have a "learning conversation" about it-H just won't discuss. He says I just beat every issue to death. And that I am not happy unless stuff is done my way. ( Now I see J that is is me initiating a learning conversation and he won't respond so I have nothing to try to say along the lines of "I hear that you are saying .....")
I admit I have done that in the past some of the time. I also realize it has only been a short time that I got it about stopping nagging, criticizing etc.
So it may be too soon.
It had been 4 weeks or so that I just stopped taking the responsibility for feeding her & not worrying about it. A couple of times dog would go to H in is home office & bark or get up on hind legs & paw him. He would respond & go feed her. H fed her consistently at night at dinner time for a couple weeks with out any prompting from dog.
About a week ago, the dog was suddenly not getting fed at dinnertime for at least 3 or 4 days in row. Dog was going to her bowl & then coming over up at me as I had already started making dinner alone without H.
(another issue but I MAY have now resolved - by not entering kitchen until H comes in with me as well. I have said " Ok, yes I am ready to make dinner now" - after H has invited me to but then he has gone back to his computer. I have waited about 5 mins then called out . "Hey will you join me in kitchen to make dinner.? " He has replied yes & usually got up in less than 5 minutes. Progress! no arguments)
So last week on 3 successive days, dog was not fed or watered at dinner time as usual. It seemed H completely forgot. In previous 3 or so days before this I had gone into his home office to ask gently with no nag or negative tone " Honey do you want me to feed her for you as she is nudging her bowl & coming over to me. (the reality was dog was sniffing at her bowl & then staring up at me like - hey woof TF where is my kibble? The dude in the other room has forgotten again & I have given up & am too hungry to bark & paw him . You are standing here - hey open the bag and lets go."
Each time H has said "Sure no problem go ahead & feed her. " I have seen that H is playing online poker- the kind with no $$ being spent, thankfully- this is the 'unwinding from the day' behavior ( which I understand) but is also a procrastinating behavior at other times.
SO NOT expressing my displeasure of the distraction -- I did NOT comment that I had fed dog for 3 night in a row. I mean I had got reprimanded for feeding before at night. All the while I was still confused about how a task like feeding the dog could have so many variations.
I realized that I was enabling with parent/child behavior. SO without fanfare, I stopped feeding the dog.
For another 3 nights dog did not get fed at night & dog was not too happy - a couple of times she went into bark & paw & H did not respond. Those nights were when I also had given up with making dinner with H ( before I had done tried the "new strategy on that behavior) & just fed her &made my own food & went up to my home office. I had to or I was going to explode. It could have been possible dog got fed when she went to work during that day with H. But she sure was hungry now.
I knew dog's bowls had no water or food in the kitchen for at least 3 days that I could remember. The toilet seat was down ( for once) so she couldn’t serve herself for a drink. If I had said that to H- he would have argued and denied my facts. So I fed her.
On the 4th night, H had night # 1 of a 2 card game weekly event. He did not feed her or water her or walk her before he left. He had been home since 4pm. He left at 7pm & came back after 1am. He said nothing to me about it. I did not want to parent/child it by asking/reminding if he took dog out or if he fed her.
Dog was upset & came & looked at me as if to say-hey what gives.This put me in a quandary.
I wanted to feed dog as I did not want her to suffer but I was in between a rock and a hard place.
I gave her a carrot and 2 dog cookies which she loves & patted her on head. I figured she would survive.
I had NOT "got it together" enough to take one for the "team "for another night & feed dog & move on.
Then I went back to my office. I went to bed at 10pm.
H came home at 1 am & I heard him. He did not walk her. He did put her in her crate as I had left her out on purpose-thinking she might go to her dish or at least bark if she had to go out. But H only put her in crate.
Next am-H got up at usual 6am. Dog was still in her crate. H usually does not let her out of crate until 8 or 9am or sometimes 10am.
At about 7:45am (I don’t get up until 8.15 or so) she started to bark in quick short yips. I knew she had to go out. But I kept quiet.
She barked for 15 mins straight then H comes out & lets her out of cage & goes back to office. He is on phone. Dog goes in & she starts to paw him. I have dresser mirror that reflects all of this. Finally after another 10 mins, H gets off phone & says "okay you want to go out I get it. " But phone rings & he gets on for another 10 or so minutes. Dog persists with pawing & barking. H says "ok -let me get my pants and shoes." Dog runs halfway across room- H goes into bathroom & brushes his teeth etc but still sees dog from bathroom.
Dog cannot hang on any longer and goes over to her separate bed near couch. She empties a full bladder on it. It is bed I made her-which took 3 sat afternoons to make from recycled jeans and 4 pillow stuffings and 1 old couch cushion. It was 3' x 2' with a huge tootsie roll semi circle pillow around it. Dog absolutely loved the bed. I hand sewed her name in it.
But I know it wasn't her fault --she gave many early warning signs several times.
(yes I knew bed might get destroyed : most likely if she chewed it or horfed on it -when I made it but I figured it would last at least 3 to 6 months- I had incorporated velcro openings also so I could unstuff & wash if need be. I had already thought ahead how I would redesign another one if I had to in future- always a learning curve in my learn as I go approach to sewing!!)
H sees her peeing & says " No oh no. Stop it. Bad dog."
He then rushes into bedroom & put on pants but carries his shoes & runs put to front door & just lets her out unleashed. We live on a busy street & she does not come when called. Past history has involved one dog meeting its maker from similar unleashed behavior. This was distressing to me but I stayed in bed away from the action. I honestly did not know what to do. In the past, I would have started screaming at H or gone out to get dog or have jumped up out of bed in my jammies and taken her out. In other words-Rescuing behavior.. But his time I just bit the pillow & pretended to be asleep.
H finally goes out & catches dog & finally gets her back in house.He then goes to dog bed and says "Oh no "-very loudly!
He comes into bedroom & says to me " she peed on her bed I couldn't stop her But she did warn me. It wasn’t her fault. I ignored her. "
H had the most distressed/ashamed look on his face. It was the first time I have ever seen that look or most likely he let me see that look. We have been together for several decades. Instead of erupting, I got up & calmly lifted bed. It was soaked & I mean soaked. The wood floor beneath it was soaked as well.
The bed was at least 6 inches thick so I know dog really had to go. I only said " I will get vinegar for the floor to de-scent it."
But H had already gone back to his office. I knew he was leaving it for me. Another parent/child moment in the making. I did not say anything to him-I wanted to but did not.
I then realized bed was trashed. I would have to take it outside & pull out 3 laundry baskets of peed on stuffing. Then vac out the insides, then wash it then buy new stuffing, then re-stuff it etc etc.. This would take a couple of hours. Scenario probably happen again. I decided that it wasn't worth it & chucked it on top of the trash barrels outside -in my jammies BTW.
I came back inside and said nothing. H asked me about it an hour later - " so what happened to dog bed?"
I said " oh I decided it just wasn't worth it and chucked it." Then I went about my business with no ranting, comments or display of emotion. I then went upstairs to my office and began my day.
H said nothing the entire time. I heard him go off to work with dog about 30 minutes later. Nothing further was said about it that night and for 3 or 4 more days.
Yesterday around dinner time, he said "Hey what happened to the dog bed? We were out walking near trash area & she recognized it and got all happy & started to pull at it. So what happened?"
I said very nonchalantly "Oh after determining the hours involved & tall the effort & the fact that it all could happen again -I decided it just wasn't worth it. I am still pretty upset & angry about it. I did spend a lot of time to make it. I figure maybe when I have calmed down about it- maybe in a few months or so I will re-design another &make one that can be just thrown in wash with out stuffing. We will have to see."
H just stood there for 5 minutes then said "Well she really misses it, She really liked it. I know you spent a lot of time on it. "
I calmly with no tone nor negativity said "- Yes I am sure she does miss it. She does have her pad in her crate and the washable pillow in her basket. "
I said nothing further and H went into his office. ( J-- think this must be the Dragon's Lair)
So I am thinking that by avoiding an argument, by me not criticizing H for the whole incident which could have been prevented-that the actual consequence of events sunk in to H? I can only hope that this doesn't happen gain- but I pretty sure the odds are against it.
I still am not sure if H feels safe enough to discuss this. Typically he never initiates a discussion on anything. It has taken a lot of observations on my to finally "see" his behavior.I have been too busy screaming like a crazy person. After I have taken the couples course- as I said alone- I don't know if he will ever "get off the dime".
I am grateful that I was able to prevent another one of my meltdowns - that I was able to avoid going ballistic & not fall back into the old pattern of nagging & reacting & criticizing. H may not be able to be honest enough with himself to recognize that.
But I see that I am responsible for myself & not him.
Again sorry for the rant, I have no outlet other than this forum.
Any comments?
Or has gone thru a similar event?
Or how have you coped with not erupting when this type of stuff happens?
I do admit- I was hurt from the now seemingly wasted effort I put into the bed only to have it destroyed in a blink of the eye. "Sewer be ware!"
I have sucked it up & realized it was a tremendous learning experience for me while proving to myself that I can control myself. I am doing something different instead of the same thing over and over with the same poor results.
If it looks,like I am fishing for validation that I am on the right track - I am. :-)
Crash I hear another Redwood falling...
Another Thought J on Dragons and their Slayer
Submitted by eyekahlo on
I realize that new curtains are a real boring subject for the testosterone set but I had to sit thru a boring conversation on the intracasies of installing a thermostat for a HVAC pump in a new house H just built and also the difference between that and the HERS rating blower in the door thing. Ok I didn't get it the first time around but H gets very annoyed with me if I ask further questions as I to try to understand. I want to show I am interested in what he does everyday-his request of me. H says I don't understand anything. Well educate me. I mean if H asked me what size needle or type of thread or what setting on my machine for the curtains or dog bed I would have responded. And explained anything-nicely. But he wouldn't because he does NOT care - you are correct J . I get that but I really thought that in a marriage one is supposed to be supportive and try to relate to the spouse. And to show interest. And they are supposed to do that back. I mean it says so in my Cinderella Manual I got from my 1960's childhood. I guess maybe I should burn that along with peepee dog bed in the yard and instead should be trying to get a copy of the manual from Beetlejuice as that prolly has more relevant info. LOL :-0 Just my sarcastic side coming out J!!
As it has been in this many decade marriage- i have sat silent and been arm candy. He likes it thta way. Well my candy wrapper has dis intergrated but I still clean up pretty well. ..... maybe it is time for A Madsion...
More Dragons Now Xena Style
Submitted by eyekahlo on
Or simply put if the Dragon wants to get laid- take the one fing 15 gallon trash bag out and notice the fing curtain and that I colored my hair two shades lighter. Maybe the Dragon would understand that. Or I will check out the new Thor in the neighborhood. Ok I am tired. Sorry everyone. I am gonna go fall asleep while reading a left over D&D Dragon Slayer book before I list it on eBay. ;-0
Live and Let Life.......Teach You E
Submitted by kellyj on
I came up with that opening line after reading everything you wrote. I won't get into the details of all that you said but it was very much like listening to a play back tape of my past...and even present.......so now onto the future in the spirit of Christmas to come? Perhaps? A fore shadowing of what will be?
I'm really glad you shared the story of the dog feeding schedule and your H's comments and the things he's said about them? That Dragon thing.....it's a really good analogy if I do say so myself? If I put myself into the context of Christmas past? The past was in denial....and those things your husband says ( the Dragon moments ) is the language of denial but there is hope if I can give it to you in saying that I use to say and do many of the same things that I do not do anymore? Let me interpret for the Dragon a bit here and taking a couple of things you've said and just translate denial language of my past and bring into the present time ( Christmas present lol ) I'm on a roll and I might as well stay in the metaphor since obviously you like those too;)
But first...I will remind you the same thing that really helped me in the same reminder from the couple course? Remember the "Meta" conversation Melissa mentioned speaking of learning conversations and being out of synch at times in the conversation? That was really helpful to me since for quite a while....my wife and I were missing so far off the mark any time we were trying to discuss anything....I realized ( once it was brought to my attention here ) that ( not blaming her ) but I identified at least....I was getting pulled into a conversation that was so narrow in scope from my perspective ( since my wife's kind of "micro-scopic vision" was not seeing anything of the bigger picture I was trying to engage her is? I was talking the forest...and she could only see ONE tree in it and that was me!! That makes it hard to talk about much...if "I'm" the center of attention ( even when I am trying my best ...NOT TO BE!!! LOL ) That's the point...her focus was so narrow...she could not have the Meta conversation about the Elephant ( of Dragon ) sitting in the room with both of us at the same time? Which was in part.....why I would come here and trying to analyze and dissect everything...in order to see what she was seeing? The problem was not what I wasn't seeing as much...as her in this case which was actually the biggest problem for the two of since....I didn't realize that...and neither did she for a while.....until I realized this too? Getting her to see the forest at least...is easier when you know the problem is and why? That helped a lot....in at least getting us on the same page?
Which is why I brought this up since....a learning conversation is not a fix it....for that problem right from the start? Even if you are doing it right....if you're talking about the forest...and the other person is talking 'trees" ( or tree lol )....then a learning conversation won't do much about that...if that is the problem right from the start? I might help to tell you that this is the "main problem" though...so it could useful....even if it's not going to function as it could be or in it's full potential?
Okay to translate a couple things for you in what you said?
"Hey, I feed her in the morning." A few days later I saw him feeding her at night. After a few more nights of that, I calmly commented "Oh you feed her at night now?"
Allow me to interpret because I know this one like the back of my hand!! LOL "Hey, I feed her in the morning".....really means "Hey, my intention is always to feed her in the morning....and I do that perfectly every time I remember to do it in the morning. Otherwise.....I don't. And when I don't......I feed her when I remember to......but by default.....I feed her in the morning. Unless I don't" LOL
That's the full un abridged version your not getting? And you reply "Oh, you feed her at night now?" And his response ( the unabridged version ) "I always feed her in the morning. Unless I feed her at night or any time I don't feed her in the morning." LOL ( you idiot!!! ) lol
I just wanted to make fun of myself and having fun with your husband and making light of this situation because it really is not that big a deal as an isolated instance? Truly. Yes....it sounds likes he lying but he really not aware that he is? It is not a purposeful "lie" with intention and awareness? What this is ...is wishful thinking...and thinking he's doing it the morning more often than he forgets to remember since he's not paying attention to the times he doesn't...and is only counting the times he does ( as if ) those other times didn't happen? STEREOTYPICAL!!!! And that really is a straight up ADHD symptom in not paying attention to these things and really not keeping track of them or even noticing them and that comes with lots of practice and effort to start paying attention and keeping track in that way?
BUT....here you are...doing this very thing? You are noticing the times....."he doesn't do it in the morning".....and he's " only counting and keeping track of the times he does as if the ones he misses didn't exist? But saying....he is saying the intention he has verbally in the same sentence which kind of shows you that he really is not aware of it? He still thinks, intends and plans on doing it in the morning every time he says it.....but he's failed to be able to do that successfully.....so...those don't count! LOL But they don't go into his memory...since he's not really noticing and paying attention and keeping track himself and that is a lot harder than you might imagine...for someone with ADHD to do this on a regular basis especially with anything "new". ( like the dog ) It might take him a while...but eventually....I'll bet he will do it in the morning much better over time until ( I am speaking for myself ) the habit is down and made and then it just happens automatically the time without fail...or rarely.....just like anyone else? Well saying most? Some people in my experience....are extremely precise and anal...but there is a cost to being that way for them and other people in that they are usually pretty rigid....but they never fail and are like clock work? Most people are not quite that precise unless you talking about appointments or scheduled events with others?
But the one area I have a lot of experience with...is dogs since I've had them all my life starting when I was 7 years old? I have two now as a matter a fact..and this reminded me of my first one who got when I was living alone at the time? Actually both before I met my wife so this was an interesting thing to compare to and how that endued up working out in comparison?
I was very busy at that time with lost of things on my plate? And I was not good at doing things on a routine schedule since I did have a lot of fires that I was working on putting out at the time...so my schedule was never the same from one week to the next for a while there. Like no schedule except for work..and that was pretty much the only constant at the time?
So as far as dogs go.....they have no real concept of Chronologic time like we do? They aren't "clock watchers" for sure....which is kind of obvious! LOL So with dogs...there are no deadlines peer se....except when they have to pee or they are hungry or thirstily..and that's pretty much it? So during that time....I use to forget to put food in the bowl at certain times and would do it later too...but only an hour or two...not days for sure? But a really funny thing happened with my first dog almost right away . He's a pretty smart little dog anyway...and he is not what I would call shy either?? He's a talker and then some...and a back talker on top of it? ( pretty full of himself and is not afraid of speaking up!! )
But out of no where...and I didn't train him to do this at all......I would be sitting there busy and working on something...and I would here this scraping or scratching sound coming my way? And then I would here in getting closer and closer and I knew it was ( Picasso ) but I had no idea what he was doing? The next thing you know....there is Picasso...with his bowl sitting there looking at me ..and him barking like Lassie....when Timmy would fall into a hole and need to be rescued? ) That show may be before your time but Timmy....was the biggest F&*&K UP on the planet..and was always needing Lassie to rescue him. Like...every episode!!! You've never seen a vortex of things going wrong like Timmy was...... in that show, since if Lassie hadn't been there...the show would have been canceled after the first episode because Timmy would have died!! LOL
Anyway.....Poo ( Picasso ) began routinely ( and not waiting very long either ) to scoot his metal bowl from the kitchen....to where ever I was in the house ( it didn't matter )...with his nose until he was standing right in front of me..and then sat and barked at me like Lassie!!! LOL It was clear.....what Poo wanted and he never let me miss a feeding!!! And never does to this day?
So in essence.....I wasn't training him......HE was training me!!! LOL And my second dog....never has to worry or do anything along these lines.....because Poo will never....not let you know...when it's feeding time.....like clock work!!! LOL
So if can stand back and look at this...and look at the same thing in comparison with you and your H? You aren't missing a beat either....just like Poo....and you are training you H in one respect....by pointing out when he fails by shining a light on it? You comment...."You feed her at night now?" Shame bomb!!! kabluey!!!!! And right to the point. That Dragon is so full of shame...he's got shame up the eye balls so in terms of the Dragon ( not your husband ) the Dragon's currency of exchange is either shame or anger so....anything you do in terms of "sarcasm" or "questioning"...come in the form of shame as far as the Dragon goes and you just blew him out of the water......right on schedule. Like clock work? And now....the Dragon starts talking and denies what your husband did and says "I always feed her in the morning". Just like clockwork!!! Symptom, response, response. That's the trees...right there...the forest is the big picture?
In the big picture....these symptoms or pointing them out...only have one result each time you do it. The light bulb comes on in the Pigeon cage...and the Pigeon pecks at the buttom and gets the corn kernels. Just like clock work? You are trying...or wanting to break this cycle of behavior........so in order to do this....you need to stop.....turning the light bulb on....because you don't want the Pigeon to "peck"..and that's the goal here?
What you did yourself...without realizing it....was reinforce the behavior...bu including the shame bomb in how you did that which for everyone else...would work...but not for someone with ADHD. In essence......we're not doing that for the same reason as everyone else...so by using the same method to get our intention that way....you just hit a nerve..and didn't understand why? That...was a "trigger" moment...right there...and a different form of currency is needed to get the results you want?
And the answer...is exactly what I learned from my dog Poo. Poo doesn't get upset or angry when I miss his feeding? His feelings don't get hurt...or ...he doesn't hold grudges or read into things like people do. He has one thing he wants..and only one thing....food in his bowl and he really doesn't care when you do it...(exactly ) as long as it's within a certain time frame?
But...if you miss the window....he will bring his "bowl to you"....not sit and pine and get upset...or bark from the other room like crazy and annoy everyone to death and you have no idea what he is barking at which could be anything you know?
But when Poo takes his nose and scoots his bowl into the room where I am and puts in right in front of me and then barks......there is no way I don't know what he wants....and...he just reminded me it's time to feed ( them ) if I miss this ever?
And does this mean I don't Love Poo? OMG!! If I ever Loved anything in my life more than my dogs...it would be my wife only and that's about it? And does Poo get upset, get angry, and disown me when I miss feeding him on occasion which really never happens because he trained me like I said. Poo would Love me....no matter what I did...unconditionally..and I return the favor....effortlessly with a hitch. All I need is a reminder from time to time...and Poo is not one...to let me forget? And I forget less now than I ever did back then.....but it was Poo himself who trained me...and showed me how it's done?
Dogs are a gift to humanity....IMHO. I learn more from my dogs sometimes....than I do from people since they are a shining example of what Love is all about and I never miss a best with them:)
J
Needing A Lot of Teaching
Submitted by eyekahlo on
J-Thanks again for your comments. I see what you mean. Again I need to re read this several times.
But what I still don't get- Whose responsibility is it to feed the dog when she has not been fed for a day and a half? And yes it coincides with H being under stress. This has been going on for 10 months.
I have had conversations with Melissa about other aspects of this dog battleground. It is her opinion if I may repeat it here-:-) that the dog is my H's responsibility.
Also FYI it started out being H 's dog then she attached herself to me and I burnt out with her neediness and H wanted a job site dog. Then he took her with him to a weekend family reunion ( I stayed home- no need to hang out with the family of Dragons). It was then that she switched her attachment to H.This was truly liberating for me for many reasons.
I should note that this is the 6 or 7th dog we have had. And in the past these dogs were the munch as you go types. But this one has had food issues from day one. Vet told us not to mix food to pick one and stick with it. So H came home and literally switched food brands 5 times- he just came home with another brand this week. I had been successful with a brand that we used from day one. Dog just was not eating then.as she was ill. From no appetite due to worm infestations to not eating recently after her spay.
It was like H was rebelling from what the vet said. On purpose. It confused me greatly- H and I battled over it.
Currently she has an appetite which is great. Also this dog looks at a ball as to say what's that? H has had to teach her to be a dog which he is enjoying BTW. She just started to play tug of war with a rope toy which all our other dogs knew instinctively what to do. Also she is about 25 lbs and our other dogs were 60 lbs and up. Also we are empty nesters 80% of time which when it is 100% things are better in our house hold. So dog is getting more attention than what we offered when we had kid chaos about 15-20 years ago.( BTW- I did watch Lassie and in fact when this new dog was sometimes barking we would say WTF Timmy has fell down the well again. What a moron!!)
So to be as specific as I can here- if dog is H responsibility then I am supposed to turn a blind eye if she has not been fed for a day and a half? She is not a nibbler but when she is hungry wolfs it all down. So I can't leave a bowl for her to munch when she feels like it.
SO what constitutes my part in this? I don't expect my H to come up and feed my Amazon. How would he even know-he doesn't come up to my office to see if she even has food. I take that responsibility every day. In the very rare occasion if I can't change her water bowl- I will ask H to do it. Birds can't drink poop water for long. BTW I know he does it 10 mins as i am coming back in house-I hear him upstairs and bird is freaking/squawking out due to rushed movements.
So H remarks today that he really hates it when I tell him to feed dog. Or tell him dog needs to go out. SO I get that. It is mothering. H agreed.. She is not my resp. Then in next breath he says but she is the family dog -our dog so I do expect you to take her out if I have forgotten especially on my card nights etc. ( Is this the Dragon?)
I said we needed to have a chore conversation (Session 5). But we could discuss a dog chore agreement now. So I led off by saying we have not discussed specifically dog chores or what should happen on nights you go out. Either dog doesn't go out between 7pm and 1 am and you can walk her when you get back at 1am as I go to bed at 10pm. OR I can offer to walk her for you on those 2 nights. How do you feel about that?
H said that would be fine with him. I asked --Then everything else you will handle-vet, going to job site, feeding etc.
H nodded.
I said if dog is your responsibility then it would be me mothering or rescuing you if you don't walk /feed her.
And you just told me that you hate it when I do tell you that she hasn't been out.
He said well I want you to keep me on top of it. I said well that is confusing to me as it sounds like the parent/child situation which I myself need to stop engaging in. H was staring at me for quite a while.
( I am thinking that this was one of those you can't have it both ways things - but if I had voiced that- Hi Ho Silver - Trigger would have done a back flip-) I bit my tongue and waited for H to respond. He was quiet did not say anything and then started playing with dog.
Maybe I need duct tape lipstick but I said --How do you feel about this?
He said - ok.
But past behavior indicates H will 'forget ' this conversation in about 2 weeks.
So I think H could probably set a reminder in his phone but it is not my job to set that up for him. So how do I get out of this dilemma?
Go buy a case of duct tape?
I frankly don't care either way who feeds the dog as long as she gets fed. So if H is taking responsibility for dog then I am not involved at all it . So no mothering no rescuing and if it takes 3 days for dog to get fed then so be it. J -I understand how your dogs bring the bowl in and all that. But I think even if H's dog came in and frisbeed her bowl against H's head he would still be --What is Timmy in the well?
Ok maybe H is right-I am beating the subject to death-
I know Melissa says in course that things don't necessarily get resolved but a negotiated work around can happen. I am still not clear about the fing dog. I have to 'stifle myself, Edith' and stay out of it as this is H's baggage? What is there to be negotiated?
Am I supposed to give up and go along ?- I can' t do that any longer.
I am always just below the boiling point as this behavior goes on with almost every aspect of our life. Once a T from 10 years ago said well you are trying to change behavior that has been going on for a long time. You should expect resistance. But that T never was supportive or had any ideas- he was more interested in my childhood. Yes we can go thru my childhood but What about stuff for right now? I canned him not long after that.
What about when the Dragon whines but " E you didn' t remind me about dog this or that. . And then snaps at me for reminding him. I have to go get the xray glasses to see who it is I am dealing with. Time to read the Bell Jar again?
I might as well sandpaper my tongue then go eat a lemon- it would hurt less.
My obtuseness is not an asset but I really want to save this marriage. I will keep at it until I get it right.
Who feeds the dog ?
I am NOT a dog.
Submitted by eyekahlo on
j---
I too think dogs are great. But I am not a dog- I do have feelings, I do get angry and I am human after all.
I am smarter than the dog. Not by much but I am.
It is like walking on eggshells.
Maybe H likes the dog for just those reasons you describe J.
So maybe they should just "get a room"
My inner Xena says Hey how much BS can you take?
and earlier today H offered to do Session 4 of the course because he knows "it is important to me".
I almost had to have CPR.
I was the one with PMS - 20 years ago. Maybe i should have got an extra case of tampons as H is just as unpredictable as I was then.
Seriously I will work on the triggers- and probably will have to sandpaper my tongue to start over and try again...
I have gone back to Session 1 and will go slow this time....I have not retianed very much it seems.
If first you don't succeed then try try again...
Eyekahlo.....
Submitted by Zapp10 on
I commend you for your diligence in sorting out and navigating the maze of Adhd. I IDENTIFY with most all you say.
We have 3 dogs and the "mayhem" that surrounded feeding them needed to come to an end for me. Our rule was whoever is up first....feeds the dogs. Great....except...my H would forget and I would "assume". The dogs let us know, in short order....they hadn't been fed. My solution?.........I made a sign on a piece of paper in black magic marker..DOGS HAVE BEEN FED. WE AGREED that this was to be put on their feed bin when the dogs have been fed by WHOMEVER. The upside to this was.... if adder H forgot to put sign in place.....the dogs were fed twice. THAT is far more humane then not getting fed at all. For my H the sign helped and there were very few times that the dogs were fed twice. In other words, we both shared the responsibility without having to have a discourse about it. My H seemed to be helped by SEEING the sign (a visual) reminder.
In my humble opinion......you have every right to step in concerning the care of a living being/creature who CANNOT feed themselves and are counting on someone caring (not just saying they do).
We non adhd spouses become so embroiled in wanting to do "right" by our spouses that we start questioning can we have ANY expectations AT ALL? I am more than attentive to my H's adhd......so long as he is putting in the SAME effort, which has NOT been the scenario. I have taken on alot during our 40 some years...whew!.....BUT I draw the line at the health and well being of humans and animals.....his saying better be followed by doing.....and if it isn't.....then I WILL take action. For me....taking proper care of any animals(no matter who brought it home) is a BOUNDARY. Don't want to take care of it?......DON'T bring it home....period.
The parent/child scenario is exactly what is playing out with you and your H where the dog is concerned......YOU can't help that .....somebody has to step up.
Do not lose yourself in this process of saving your marriage.....it happens .....
When I look back and see how I turned myself inside out learning about Adhd.....while my H (with adhd) DIDN'T.....I would have done things a little different.....meaning......at some point....I should have said to him( when I actually realized he wasn't DOING anything about the adhd but pouting).......if this is something you don't think is that big a deal..you are free to think that......and you need to KNOW.......that for ME.....it says you really don't care.....what I think.........and THAT sends a very very sad message to me about our marriage.
I do have to add....that my H had something way worse than adhd going on. It interfered with his making progress concerning the adhd......but I still believe I should have "put my foot" down sooner on him coming to terms with the adhd and actually LEARNING and DOING something about it.
My very best to you.......
Zapp.....Coming Back Here
Submitted by kellyj on
You brought up something that I think is a real important point to make in how you and your husband had this "shared responsibility" when whom ever got up first....fed the dogs? I wanted to comment on this from the practical side of things and tell you what I have found that works....and what simply doesn't work and give you my reasons as to why? What you just described is so typical and it failed didn't it? You are not alone there for sure. I think this right there is a key point to make and not over look an especially when it comes to building or eroding trust and changing your expectations.
I've mentioned before that I was diagnosed late in life after I was 40 and this is such an important aspect to make here for anyone like myself? I can't speak for other men and their habits and rituals with ADHD but.....I made these discoveries about myself along the way...and with no one there to "help me" or "enable me"....I was on my own to figure this stuff out and mostly I did in many ways and it always came down to some kind of "crutch" or "aid" that I used ( like a trick ) that I found that worked in a practical way which is not what I would call a mal-adaptive strategy at all? This was just me....realizing after so many failures....."I can't do this". Done deal? If it works it works...if doesn't....find something that does? The path of least resistance and not having anyone there to do it for me?
This is realism 101 I guess? The school of hard knocks? So in this "school of thought" you might say.....your ego takes second seed to what is practical just so you won't fail in a more do or die kind of way. So from this frame of mind.....beating your head against the wall will only go on for so long before you just find something that works? Anything and it doesn't matter and your pride or being afraid of failure and that "I'm bound and determined" kind of attitude has just got to be put on hold until you have a chance to figure it out? In the mean time however......you've got to find something that works?
This is where...is you were married at age say 25...and you've stayed that way with one person since that time......what I experienced will never happen? And yes.....I did the same thing you did at first thinking "shared responsibilities" sounds good? As long as everyone pulls their weight so to speak? But what you mentioned isn't necessarily about "shirking your responsibilities" having ADHD...it is more just not coming to the realization....that some things...you really can't do very well and admitting this to yourself so you can get on to the next level? And with that....it's not about "shirking"...it about failure and that's straight to the point? The intention..and the motivation and even with all good intentions and putting your best foot forward....you still fail so there really is nothing to be ashamed about....in having to admit...."I can't do it".....IE: "I can't do it.....THIS WAY" And I need to find another one that will work in a practical sense?
And what I just described is all ADHD and nothing else right there? Failure...as in forgetting like this....is not from not paying attention sometimes as much as it is literally....having a moment or an ADHD brain fart....and then you fail? So if this is just too much to admit.....or some how you are not Man enough because to fail in something so stupid as this...is going to wreck your image or your life in that it would be so horrible to have to let anyone see this because this of course...is such a stupid easy thing to do and why can't I just "do it"? You can see where that "I a Man...and I am not suppose to fail since everyone is counting on me...so I am bound a determined NOT TO and do it just like everyone else. Because...that's what I am suppose to do!! It's my duty as a Man...not to fail like this and that would mean....I am Less a Man...than other Men to show this weakness I have."
This is where I have to say....that is a bunch of baloney!!! The attitude at least? It does come from societal norms and all and the expectation themselves are not created by ( US ) men necessarily..but none the less....it's garbage and worthless thinking and it only makes you look "worse" when you have this "try harder"...."can do" attitude and apply it that way? It just ends up making yourself look bad...and is way more embarrassing in the long run. There is no "working harder" with ADHD......only "working smarter".....that's the key? And even then....the expectation that "I will not fail"....I must not fail".....'I can't fail"....or else!!!! Is the road to disaster and failure in itself if you looking at this on a one to one basis? One to one meaning.....each failure...only shows how much a failure I really am?
Hog wash.....(petewy!!! lol ) I know I am going to fail!!! I can count on it!!! And that's the attitude you should have too even if your H's can't admit it. ( in denial ) And if you realize and admit and count on failure....then mistakes are just the indicator...to do something different? So now.....the world is open to suggestion and creatively and there is no shame involved? And to the point...if someone doesn't;t like it? Tough!! But tough....within the attitude that what they might not like or even look down on your for...is having a crutch....or some visible means so you will never fail and within not failing ever.....or looking like you weak ( because you have to have a visible crutch of some kind......it pretty much doesn't matter any more...if you never fail at that point? So in essence to "tough"....it's only the crutch that others may make comment on? But if someone were in a wheel chair..and they were in your way all the time because of it? Who's the bad guy here in that case? You...or the person in the wheel chair? That kind of simplifies...the "tough titties" attitude doesn't it? As long as it works..and as long as it...in it...and by itself...doesn't''t fail on the one to one basis depending on what you are talking about? With ADHD in that respect......you need more than ONE....wheel chair?
So in just this moment when I read that I went......what about those automatic dog feeders? You know the ones designed to feed you animals while you are away for a few days or out of town? But now....you are using it all the time every day? Now....no one has to remember this on a precise schedule and the dogs get a metered dose of food on a timer so they don't "bloat" or "gorge" themselves since some dogs do this? I've had a couple of "gobblers" in my time...so I understand this from that perspective? My dogs now are easy in that they are "grazers" which makes this so much easier?
Anything that works....so you don"t have to right? I mean....so YOU don't have to ...not your husbands? And if your husbands don't like it? Tough!!! Same rules apply? You can still share the responsibility...but it takes the pressure off? I've found just like anything else.....if you can't go from A to Z all at one time....you need to step up the stairs...one step at a time sometimes and a crutch...is the perfect "aid" to get you there as long as that same intention and motivation is there behind it?
But of course....if your Ego....or some sense of entitlement is getting in the way...then that makes this problematic doesn't it? You mentioned your a fixer and problem solver by nature your self ( which I am )...and I am kind of got that inventor, mad scientist,...experimenter mentality that says.......if it doesn't work...try try again and do something different? The mother of invention is necessity as they say? If you can admit...that you are just trying to see if it will work...with no expectation that it will? Then there is no such thing as failure.....only, not having found the right answer yet? And if you can admit that....you can also admit....that "hell...I don't know what I'm doing....but I will...when I figure it out!!! "LOL
That kind of takes the pressure off..if you can see it that way? So within that...putting your foot down as you said? What I said about ..."tough titiies"....get over it. Works both ways as long as it is done......this way....and not in a way that is harmful for anyone except the male ego? LOL At the end of the day....its a win / win for everyone ( except Mr Ego that is LOL ) And Mr Ego.....will get over it....or not...but then....that's Mr Ego's problem....not yours?
J
"White Knight Syndrome"......The Sense of Agency
Submitted by kellyj on
I realized I neglected to include the article I found on "agency" and that is the sub title of the article. "The White Knight Syndrome"...or better....."The Knight in Shining Armor."...who come to rescue to poor damsel in distress. To deny that this doesn't exist or that you were not taught to be this way growing up or have you think that this is not something that our society has value in....I think you could safely say that you are in denial if you think that this is not somewhere in your thinking about relationships between men and women and the roles that these things play in a marriage? It is just a role or a persona after all...and this is definitely "learned behavior" which comes from "expectations" more than anything else? Cause and effect says....something had to happen before...to create something like this and it didn't just appear out of no where....spontaneously? That would be Magical Thinking I do believe? And in terms of the Knight in Shining Armor.....that....is a "fairy tale" and Magical Thinking right there because in reality....it really doesn't exist other than a "construct" in our minds that someone else.....put there? Someone had to put that there....or else....we wouldn't believe it?
And in a moment I do remember in my therapist office with my ex wife who was really insistent that I was shirking my responsibilities and she had this notion or idea that she was kind of like this Damsel.....who needed to be rescued ( or victim...with victim mentality ) she was complaining about a board in the fence that I hadn't fixed because she was worried about the dogs getting out or the yard? But I had so many other things on my list of things to do that were more important....that I hadn't had a chance to get to it yet? Now....I am responsible for creating this situation with too many projects and things to do like this ( I am my own worst enemy after all )..but the fact remained.....what is ...is what is...and in that moment in time....there was nothing I could more than what I was already doing to "fix" everything that needed to be fixed and this loose fence board was the least of my concerns at the time since I had MANY or these things on my list...and I was trying to knock them down one item at a time and was actually in the process of getting them all....but it wasn't fast enough for my ex wife who was doing nothing to help me in any of these things..and just sitting back complaining from the peanut gallery so to speak? And I even remember her saying when we first started dating...that I was her "Knight in Shining Armor"..which at the time...sounded flattering but didn't take her seriously...until I was there and went "OMG!! She wasn't kidding!! YIKES!!! And that was just it? I thought...she was kidding and this was just a fun little way of expressing how she felt about me in a kind of ...."factisious" way? I was so naive at that time!! I had no idea...that she was actually serious...and she meant that sincerely which is why this didn't register with me at all? Like....."yeah right.....Fariy Tale fodder.....ha! But hey....it sounds nice and I guess she's just using that to give me a compliment to say she thought I had some competence or ability IF......we were in some fairy Tale and I would make a good Knight in Shining Armor. That must be what she is saying because I am no Knight in Shining Armor and then some? OMG.....are you kidding me? Who would think that of me...and who lives in Fairy Tale land?? HA! What a joke? Right?"
Wrong!! As I found out the hard way? That was no joke...and my ex wife...was not kidding as I thought? She really saw me that way for real? And I was dumb founded and really not with the program at all? I could not believe anyone would actually think this way or that they could actually be serious when saying such a thing because....that only exists in Fairy Tales...and NO ONE believes in Fairy Tales any more?????????????" Wrong again....but it's not a belief in that she really believed in Fairy Tales.....what she believed was I was going to fix all her problems and do all the work on top of it so she could sit in her little house...and do what she did and not have to do anything that fell under the category of "Knight" work in her mind?
Looking back in retrospect......this is exactly what I thought at the time right to the last sentence. Exactly. And it was exactly what I believed...and I could not believe anything else beyond that much? I was so much in denial...it wasn't even funny and that was 1/2 the problem? The other 1/2 was my ex wife's problem...in that...she actually believed this...and there we were....both....not being able to believe what was actually true?
What was actually true for both of us at the same time? Was we both suffered from this agency problem together...and both of us were waiting for the other one to do ...what we could not or did not think we should or shouldn't be doing? And both of us....wer victims at the same time because of it which was the real issue the culprit behind this agency problem that we both shared together?
So...as I remember that day...I remember exactly what my T said to my ex wife as he turned to her after hearing us both voice our complaints about the other person? He said..." you know....he just a guy...doing his thing? Why can't you fix the fence board yourself...if he's too busy to fix it right now when you want it fixed? Do you know how to use a hammer and a nails?" Which my ex wife replied that she did because she did..and she was actually pretty handy in doing things like that if she wanted to. And he said "Then what's stopping you from fixing it yourself? " And he left it at that? In fact....she went to see him later by himself....and then when she came back from seeing him.....she went and got a hammer and some nails and fixed the fence board herself. The problem with our situation and the end result of that exercise he gave to her....was she resented me for having to do that...which at the time ( again...being very naive ) I had no idea why? I told her...."hey way to go" and I thanked her for that? But she was not happy about it one bit...even though obviously...she displayed both the ability and capacity to fix the fence board with a hammer and a nail?
And the reason she resented it...is because Damsels.....don't use a hammer and nails!!! How undignified can one get!!!! Ha!!! LOL You think I'm kidding don't you? Maybe not....but for what its worth....that's what my T told me later...when I asked him "why does she resent this so much? I don't understand? "
There you go...when you have two victims living in the same house together.....it makes it difficult to ever meet...eye to eye on anything?
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-white-knight-syndrome/201009/yo...
J
Better......"Who's Feeding the Dragon" E?
Submitted by kellyj on
I'm not trying to avoid the specifics of the dog situation (the trees again )....but have to keep reminding myself of the same things here so I will just share what I was thinking about in all you said? Here's you've got the dog..and what the dog needs and wants? Food...for a start? And attention after that? And then there's you here and what you want and need which is a little more complicated and nol....you're not a dog.....but in respect to you......you have a Cerebral Cortex.....and a dog does not? It's why dogs are kind of simple in that respect. Not too complicated to figure out? LOL But you need attention too....in the same way a dog does so humans and dogs are not that far from each other in the common thing that they want the same as we do right?
But moving past attention for the moment...and continuing up the "food chain" here with you and not to belabor my thinking and getting too the point I want to make. Who's at the top of the food chain here? And within the metaphor.....it's the Dragon in respect to what I see in myself and what exactly is the Dragon in how I place this for myself? ( BIG picture now ) For the moment....just to put everything in perspective?
I recently ( and have in the past here )...used the movie the "Matrix" as a metaphor in itself...to convey the idea or concept that the movie centers around...in that the "Matrix"...is an illusion that the"powers that be".....and ( Mr Smith...the "agent" of those powers ) is the "battle" that the movie centers around and the two sides fighting each other to gain control......or to "keep" control in terms of what the "Matrix" wants ( at the top of the food chain ).....who are nothing more than machines with no soul but have taken control of the earth and all the people in it? And as you find out later on in the movie....what the "Matrix" really is...is an artificial reality...designed to keep the human specimens compliant or complacent and happy and in control...so they can provide "free" energy that can be tapped to "feed" the power demands of the machines in order to keep them "alive" in respect to ( if you can say it like this ) their "artificial intelligence" since they are after all...just machines?
But in respect to machines.....they need energy...to keep running or to stay alive if you put it that way...since they are not living organisms.....but the humans that they draw energy are.....ARE? The humans....in respect to the Matrix itself.....are like "dogs" or pets...that have to be maintained...or the machines stop running and the artificial intelligence dies? And the go between....between the machines and humans....are the "agents"...or the "agency" ( as a group or agents ) that are the ones who communicate and relate 1 on 1....with humans in respect to the ones ( the humans )....who are outside of the Matrix...and no longer "IN" any more? Morpheus...and his group in the ship.....who have "split the program" you might say and the only humans who realize the "truth".
And of course.....the climax or crescendo of the movie....is when Neo..becomes aware that he is the "ONE"...in essence to that poignant scene....when he can "see" the Matrix and see his separateness and or separate ability...."to change it" which is the one things that no one else can do.....even if they are aware of it like Morpheus and the rest of the humans who are outside of it non the less?
If there was a better example or Allegory to having ADHD out there....I am unaware of it this is so perfect and so very accurate in every way? It is not just like it.....it is "IT"....in speaking about the same things you are saying....in exactly the same way? So at the Top of the food chain..and who the Dragon is in respect to the Movie the Matrix......it's the machines themselves or the living organism that the machines represent in their entirety? The collection of machines...all operating under ONE artificial intelligence is exactly what the "machines" as a group.....represent and that is who needs to fed and kept alive? Again.....it's the Artificial intelligence itself.....that is at the top of the food chain and who the Dragon....really is?
So in respect to your husband....taking this on to speak about where this "resistance" is coming from within him? It is him "resisting" the Dragon....and chasing it's tail....instead of turning and "fighting" it...and meeting it head on because he is "in the Matrix" himself...and doesn't even realize it? Just like the other humans in the movie who serve to provide energy to the machine without any awareness of this is the Real Reality...in their physical bodies......they are disconnected to their bodies...and live in an illusionary world.....called the Matrix and the ones the AI....has created...to control them and keep them in line so the AI can stay alive and keep the machines running?
It's this "Artificial Intelligence".....or AI.....that is at the core of the problem or the Antagonist...in the movie if you can place this in the same way...and see how well this fits into everything I am saying?
And what I am trying to say here is......you have no control over this in your husband.....because he has no control over it either and that's the point? To say no control is not true either...but he is not yet aware of what I just said.....and in respect to me......I am? I am the ONE.....you might say here to put this into perspective and I can see this all and I know it's there...even if I can't "see" it but I can feel it...and that is more important to what I am trying to say.
I know it';s there...and further....I know what it feels like and I know all these parts or players inside of me and I am totally aware of them all and that they do exist? I am also aware of the illusionary nature of my own thought process and I am aware that the Dragon is not dead....but more or less.....not in control of me mostly.....but...the only way to stop the Dragon from gaining full control of me....it is a constant fight or battle for control....since the Dragon......NEEDS to be FED!!!! And that's just it.....what I am fighting doing....is feeding him which is exactly what I need to NOT DO!! I can't slay the the Dragon in respect to my ADHD and the Dragon will not die or just go away? It is always there pulling at me...wanting to be fed...and this is where my own resistance to things really comes into play?
Am I resisting you or my wife or others? Or am I revisiting the Dragon when he wants to be fed? The answer? The Dragon...each and every time!!! Always the same answer...and that one never changes.
The power of control I have over anything.....rest in the self discipline I have...in not "feeding" the Dragon...and not chasing the Dragons tail...and there is no buts about it.....it is the only battle I have in my life with anyone ever!!!
And it's exactly to the point that I want to make with you if you can see this in the same way as the movie? Punishing or disciplining your husband...or anyone with ADHD...for their failure to first off.....realize everything I just said...is not their fault. We are.....in respect to the movie the Matrix....having to do battle with Mr Smith....every single day. It's in respect to this idea or notion of "agency" that we suffer so greatly in....which we cannot help or just make go away?
As said "Your ability to take action, be effective, influence your own life, and assume responsibility for your behavior are important elements in what you bring to a relationship. This sense of agency is essential for you to feel in control of your life: to believe in your capacity to influence your own thoughts and behavior, and have faith in your ability to handle a wide range of tasks or situations. Having a sense of agency influences your stability as a separate person; it is your capacity to be psychologically stable, yet resilient or flexible, in the face of conflict or change."
If you haven't figured out already.....I'm a BIG story teller and I Love stories? Mainly non fiction.....but especially when I was younger "Science Fiction" and I was a big fan and read a lot of science fiction in my past or in my school years in grade school and throughout my early pre-adult life and even enjoy it still to this day? But it is a fantasy after all..but taking some real archetypical characters and making stories out of them that fit the reality that we now or might imagine in the future? So to say I'm still a big fan...is not actually true and mostly I get bored with science fiction unless it's really ingenious and creative like the story the Matrix which was so well thought through in terms that are very real in "reality"...that it definitely speaks to me in a very real way and I have that connection for myself because I actually believe in the "reality" of the Matrix...in a bondifide way that is very very real? And I can see it and feels it for myself and it is not my imagination at all!!!
Every character...in the story the Matrix...is real inside of me. All of them!! They exist...and are as real as I am I have now become familiar with them and actually know them for myself? I know Mr Smith.....and I know Morpheus and the Oracle...and I know Trinity and who she represent in me,and even Cypher...the one who wants to go to the ignorant "bliss" of the Matrix and chooses to betray everyone else and kill to do so just so he can go back to the comfort of ignorant bliss once again. I I know them all in that respect because all these characters live inside me and I possess all of them together at the same time and I know them ...because I am them...and I know the Dragon too. I am the ONE....in respect to me because I own them all. I am my own worst enemy....and if there is anything to blame or a real excuse as in what I cannot help? I cannot help...that the Dragon exists in me in terms of my agency problem and that much is very true. But any time I blame anything that goes wrong in my life....I know who to blame..and I now what is the cause even when I forget momentarily......I don't forget this ever? Once the bell of knowledge has been rung.....you can't unrig the bell?
So if you are with me in this metaphor and using the Matrix to show you what I am saying......you have no control of the Dragon either in your H...and trying to discipline your H.....won't do any good at all ( not saying this is what you are trying to do but just saying anyway? ) The Dragon has a mind of it's own...in the form of this Artificial Intelligence or fantasy world inside his head..and the Dragon wants to stay right where he is...and resist "death" himself and wants to stay alive? And if there is anything that needs to be tamed or learned how to control ( since you can't fight the Dragon or kill it ever ) what he needs more than anything...is help in not feeding it? Even if he has no awareness of what I just said.....you do it you understand me now? And that might give you a better idea who and what you are up against and how to control the Dragon....since you can't kill it or make it go away?
So ...if you can see the Dragon at the Top of the Food chain here....and the dog in at the lowest rung in the chain? It's why the dog gets fed last....since the Dragon is cutting to the front of the line?
And the agent himself as in Mr Smith...is actually the one who is the go between in his fantasy world. ( the one he spends so much time in inside his head entertaining and feeding and expending energy and attention to which is that constant battle and struggle over who is the boss and who is in control between you...him....Mr Smith..and the Dragon himself who is actually pulling the strings...so he can be fed? It's between you and his Dragon....but Mr Smith is the go between and he himself has no real power or control either and but he is the only one that shows himself and actually "speaks" to you and tells you these lies ( in the technical sense the the things said by Mr Smith as not accurate or True )
But in respect to Mr Smith himself....he is actual just a pawn or messenger himself ( the big lie teller and deceiver or charlatan ) and just the deliverer for the Dragon only and no one else? The Dragon...actually never talks directly or comes out and shows himself? It's Mr Smith who's the asshole in the real life story...and that is the asshole that your husband is just not aware of? When Mr Smith tells these lies and your husband listens to him or believes him....it's not because you husband is even aware of it necessarily? He's got what he knows is right and what he is being deceived or tricked into thinking by Mr Smith himself as the character or culprit in the story inside your husbands brain? ( the real asshole in his story or reality ) Sp in respect to Mr Smith himself....he is the villain but he can be killed even if the Dragon can't? I'll include the videos again to provide the context to what I am saying here? But this is where I have my own struggles with my wife and being patient and understanding myself with her?
When you actually kill Mr Smith.....by going to battle with him....you are killing something inside you at the same time and it can be excruciatingly painful and it really takes a lot of courage and stamina and a lot of strength to summon in order to do it? It is NOT EASY what so ever...and when it comes to the moment of truth.....it is one of the hardest things I have ever done in my lifetime of lifetimes to do. I understand why.....a person can fail in doing so....because in order to do it..and to go toe to toe with the Dragon himself....you've got to kill Mr Smith and go through him just like in the movie. Exactly like in the movie...and so....if you can picture the battle and the amount of abuse and punishment and the amount of metal strength and endurance you have to have to get there...and then once you're there...you have to beat Mr Smith...or never go any further ever? It may be a choice...and you may have control over this.....but just because you can....doesn't make it any easier. And...you are literally killing something inside you.....to get past Mr Smith at least for the first time. Once you do it once.....each time you do it....gets a little easier?
It's never any fun...and it's a lot harder and more difficult than staying inside the Matrix....but it is worth the price of admission...since you get to face the Dragon now...one on one and the Dragon is exposed...and you are no longer in denial any more once that happens? You can't unrig the bell of knowledge....once you can see it for real in reality?
So now in context to what I was saying between you and a dog? A dog doesn't;'t have Mr Smith or the Dragon in their getting in the way...because a dog doesn't have a Cerebral Cortex...and can't think outside the box ( or the Matrix ) ...and we can? That's the blessing..and the curse.....right there whether we like it or not? It is what it is.....but it's the illusion of control....that gets in the way since we really don't have as much as we think....all we can do is discipline ourselves....or punish our selves.....are really the only two choices we have?
So when Melissa said that feeding the dog is your H's responsibility.....it is...and can't be used as an excuse? It is because of what I just said? ADHD or Mr Smith and the Dragon and all these problems that exist because of ADHD are very real and absolutely true and we can't help that? What we do have the power and control in and a choice that we can't deny or use as an excuse....is the actually power to overcome it...and do something about it? ADHD does not prevent or block...the capacity to do so and you can change this without question and that is actually a fact.
What is also a fact...is how hard it is do what I just said....and kill Mr Smith in the process? That is very real as well....because Mr Smith is a total asshole...and he is one tough customer to overcome in over to do this because he is trying his best.....to make you fail all the time.
And if I am really being up front and not minimizing how much an asshole Mr Smith really is........he's not just an asshole....he is a major league Mother Fucker and the true villain in the story? Watch this video...and listen to Mr Smith speak. He is arrogant and self righteous. He swaggers around the room and talks behind the back..and whispers in Morpheus's ear. He is overly self confident and has his own personal agenda...even outside of what the machine wants. In this scene....( which is one my favorites in this movie )....Mr Smith takes out his ear pieces and breaks connection even with the machine or the AI itself...and becomes "rouge" so to speak. He has his own ideas about what is best for himself and everyone else..and what HE himself wants more than anything else...is to get the Hell out of dodge and get away from his responsibility to the machine or AI as is apparent ...which is why he takes a personal moment...to give Morpheus his own two bits on the situation and tell him what he truly thinks in a private conversation in a heart to heart way with Morpheus since....he knows. He knows what he knows and that;s all he knows...but he knows what he wants as well? What he wants is to leave and not be there and stop doing his job..and his agenda and everything he does...is in service of himself while pretending to still be part of the machine....but as we find out....we know better after listening to this conversation? The parallels you can draw here...are amazingly accurate and I believe the creates of this story and script....did this with that intention in mind in a very deliberate way? I personally feel....this story is damn near Archetypically perfect in that regard...which is why it makes such a great story? It speaks to something inside of us and we all recognize it..and yet we can't quite place it exactly? And I am a big fan of the Greek story telling format of the Hero's journey because of the exact same thing. It speaks to something real in reality....by including what is real within the sub content of the story and stays with that in exactly the same way that life.....really plays out for real in reality....even though it is just science fiction...there is truth in it that we all can recognize and therefore....relate with on a deep level that goes beyond our conscious thoughts?
The answer to your question is easy. Who feeds the dog? You do...if the dog is going to get fed...unless your husband remembers to do it? Who's responsibility is it? Your husbands like Melissa said? So what's the issue here and why is there a problem? If you can only see it as black and white....then you have to feed the dog or the dog with get sick or die if you take that to it;s final conclusion? But if you can put this story into the picture...and understand all the players in this play....you can see there is more than just meets the eye....and more than one stumbling block to over come here? You've got....the dog.......you.......your husband.....Mr Smith.......and the Dragon to deal with...but not just one Mr Smith..and not just one Dragon here? There are two to consider in each case? Your's.....and your husbands and they are both .....in this play or story in real life between the 2 of you? Fortunately....the dog doesn't have a Mr Smith or Dragon to deal with and the dog is clean here so that simplifies it as far as the dog is concerned? So the question then becomes more than just who feeds the dog? The question becomes....who's feeding the Dragon in the way I am seeing it because the Dragon sits at the top of the food chain here in this analogy and going with this metaphor to show you how I see things?
My wife ( as her usual ) always says......"you make everything so complicated". And my reply to her always as I am says " I didn't make anything complicated. IT IS COMPLICATED!!!! And there is no one right...or one easy answer or solution to fix this problem?" And I say this because I know there are 2 Dragons in this household and they both want to be fed? Mine...and hers. I can not feed mine....but am I feeding hers at the same time as well as her Mrs Smith....trying to run interference with me in trying to prevent me or sabotage me because....Mrs Smith is an Bitch and an asshole...and is a saboteur in the entire process. Mine...and hers...together...both...at the same time?
In the immortal words of Frank Zappa. "Girls, you can be an asshole too....don't pretend you don't got one on the bottom of you." I think he meant to say....inside of you ( as in Mrs Smith ) but I won't try and re-interpret what Frank said because I don't know that either!!! LOL
Anyway....it's at the very least...a kind of round about road to get there and you can't really go straight in the front door...with Smith standing in you way and running interference since you've got to get past Mr Smith first....which is why the back door in this case ....is the only choice you got until your H takes care of Mr Smith....and gets control him either way? And of course then theres the dragon to deal with....but for now.....actually knowing who all the players are....is really helpful as I have found myself? The one bit of advise or caveat in all of this? This is not a moral issue and the Dragon and Mr Smith.....are biological real components and processes in the brain and have nothing to with the Devil or evil if which might be the tendency to apply religion to this analog which has nothing to do with this aside from our genetic coding? Only God is responsible there...and this is all God works and nothing else to put God into the picture here if needed and the Devil or anything evil has absolutely nothing to do with this..since in my mind....the Devil doesn't really exist and is just science fiction and a fantasy and nothing more? Blaming this on something else that doesn't even exist MHO....is just more denial...and more delusion and is just more denial of the truth. It's easy to blame something outside of yourself....when you are always your own worst enemy in every case? Just throwing mu two bits in here...in what I truly believe is true? And what I don;t believe....in respect to who the Devil....really is?
https://youtu.be/JrBdYmStZJ4
https://youtu.be/VdxAx3kYdWs
https://youtu.be/A-CbllwxFHI
https://youtu.be/RWS2onQlOOE
J
J I will reply comment
Submitted by eyekahlo on
J I will reply comment points in the next day or so-- I am wondering how good ol' Frank is doing with his crop of "dental floss" And Matrix movies are always my faves.
Zapp10- I will respond to you also in a day or so-.
I have ranted again with the following:
I really liked the learning conversation sheets with the role playing dialogue back & forth in Melissa's course. The one that had the "mistakes" on it was very helpful to me. It was good to read the ideal one first & then the mistakes one.
Often, I have found that in general I do need things explained to me in simpler language. And metaphors always work for some weird reason. I have 3 years of college so I am sure I have some intelligence. But I don't always get it the first couple of times. No learning disabilities but I never could do math in my head & was overjoyed at the invention of calculators.
So maybe this way of talking is so foreign to me that it takes a while to wrap my head around it.
When my kids were young I came across the book: How to Talk So Kids Will Listen & Listen So Kids Will Talk by Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish. If I remember correctly parts of it had comics " newspaper style" to illustrate various conversations and ways of talking to kids. It had adults saying one thing and then kids saying whatever. Then it had the "correct way". It was a total eye opener for me after coming from a childhood of physical & verbal abuse. I was determined to not repeat what the statistics said-that I would repeat that behavior with raising my own kids. That book helped me a ton!! It took me a while to get my husband to read it but he "caught on". His childhood stemmed from loud unreasonable parents who vetoed everything and anything. Forget helicopter parents they were lamprey parents.
So now I need a book in that style or similar with examples so I "can get it".
So here is my attempt to re-create what I am dealing with. So I welcome anyone's comments, suggestions or re-wording of the "better" thing to say rather than what came out of my mouth. :-0
H - sees me come into bed room with clean sheets.Eagerly he helps me. He forgets one pillow.
Me: "Can you hand me that pillow please- it needs a case."
He says -comically- " I'm a case." ( he was making a joke about himself I guess but I never get his jokes- & after 40 years I gave up a long time ago- so I "just go along".
ME" smiling "uh huh " ( I add no tone or emotion)
We gets the sheets & cases on- ok fine.
ME: "please wait until after I get green blanket from dryer before we put the "puff" (bedspread) on.
H: "OK" and proceeds to put the 'puff' on bed.
ME: "Honey- I said I wanna wait for green blanket. It still in dryer."
H: "Oh no you didn't. You said go ahead and put it on and put the green blanket on after."
ME: "No I did not. It s still in dryer- its a hassle to pull puff off bed and .."
H: (cuts me off) "Yes you did."
ME: silence-- (I shut my mouth) The old me would have gone nutty explaining that I didn't.
H would have 'stuck to his guns" anyway so it is a no win. Now folks, I know WTF I said. But I shut my trap.
In the category of fixing me- I recently started walking on the treadmill & doing the stair stepper thing 45 mins to an hour on weekdays. I casually remarked that I read that by reducing one's caloric intake by just 500 calories a day that that would help with weight loss. I need to lose about 30 lbs. My goal is to lose 1 to 2 per week.
H : " Oh that's great. I am jealous as I have no time to exercise."Then for the next week he "forgot" that I said I was watching my diet. One weekend morning he was making a high calories egg/bacon/potatoes/cheese breakfast.
H: " You want an omelet?"
ME: nicely "No thanks. I am cutting my calories down, remember? "
I proceeded to make my low calories meal with cottage cheese fruit,coffee one slice of toast.
He seemed not to hear me & said: " No seriously, you want an omelet ?"
ME: "No thank you honey."
He set about making a breakfast that would feed 3 people.
H: "Sure you don't want some?"
ME:" No thanks I am all set" & I went into the dining room.
Later that day at dinner. I replaced potatoes with cottage cheese & did not eat any bread. H tried to get me to eat potatoes & have bread. I politely refused. About 10 mins later he did it again. I held my ground.
Then he came out with a frosted brownie and put it in front of me.
I turned & looked at him & said. " Honey haven't you been listening?- I am trying to lose weight."
H: " Oh I forgot."
Then 10 mins later H: " Just a bite"
ME: " NO"
He was just stared & me & then said "OK fine" rather emphatically.
In the past when I have tried to embark on weight loss,& this BS went on- I have always got into a rant about the fact that he wants me to lose weight but he tempts me the whole entire time. And that I would for once like some support. He then is all sorry but the next day he is back at it. To use the expression- sorry for being blunt- I am tired off being c#%k blocked.
BUT this is just one of the 10 or so "things" we go thru on a daily basis. I am not exaggerating. I sometimes feel as though he is just wearing me down.
Similar discourses this past few days:
Whether his snoring is really sleep apnea. And that he doesn't have it. After all he knows "that sleeping on his back is the best way to sleep." I did not argue at all- just nodded. Of course I look it up later and that isn't true necessarily.. But I kept my mouth shut.
Today H came home and said " Well dog was certainly bad today. " I said nothing but looked up for a moment.
H: Yes ,she wouldn't get in truck so I drove down the street a ways and then she finally got in when I opened the door. She just won't come when I call"
I just said- " Have you tried putting leash on her or picking her up"
H: " I told you it was at the job site and I let her run. It was okay."
ME: "Well if she was on the leash then she couldn't run off "
2 weeks ago- we had both ( together at the same time) looked up various techniques on dealing with a dog that won't come when called. We found many articles recommending that the leash be used at all times until dog is under control and more info was given. It was pretty straightforward.
SO H said nothing and I did not either. Then about 2 days later, H says he is gonna keep her on the leash. That he had decided that is the best way then she can't get away etc.
ME: " great idea" and let it drop.
He did do that for about a week or so. But this am I heard him take her out with out the leash.
I said nothing.
And then tonite he comes home with this same scenario.
I just let the subject drop. I can see the future on this one. Anyone else?
When we were first dating, I noticed this "sport" of arguing & defensiveness that went on in his parent's household. I used to escape to the bathroom to bite a towel or go pet their dog or even go outside without a coat just to numb myself from the effects.
The entire family & extended family relished the sport.They would each get louder & louder.They all would jockey for position in the center of the room & look around to see who was watching them. If no one was, then they moved to an area where others were sitting or whatever & then they carried on. I used to think ' Is this childish or what ? - It is like mommy mommy watch me dive into the pool or watch me go down the slide.'
There were a lot of armchair Monday morning quarter backs in residence. All experts in stuff that they had never even done. If they asked me what courses I was taking-they would then go on to theorize what the subject matter was & why I should or should not be taking it. I always was very inept at this game & was often hounded & questioned like I was on trial. I also noticed H was always very good at evading them. This made them do double time on me.
I sought some help on this from a college counselor who said to find something generic to say or change the subject & keep doing it until they back off. Well I tried to put this in practice but often it took 5 times of repeating something like - "Oh how nice of you to ask" or "Wasn't the meal lovely." Or " I really don't know you will have to ask H" or laughing or dropping something.
There was always a couple of relatives who just kept at it.Needless to say I stopped going to family gatherings for a good 25 years or more.It was often more than I could take as my anxiety before these events was over the roof.
Now many years later, most have gone to the big debate center in the sky. But H's brothers & cousins & respective spouses all have filled in the void with vigor.
SO after 25 years or so, I think one year maybe it is different now. Oh no grasshopper!
One year it was our turn to have Passover Seder ( this was about 10 years or so ago) ( I am not Jewish) with 25-30 relatives showing up. (In the past I usually got lost elsewhere for that day.) For this very occasion I had saved one old Valium left over from from the dentist visit- I have dental phobia. I broke it in half & took it. Then went to my basement office to get my copies of the 30 Minute Seder and a Passover vocabulary word crossword that I had started printing earlier.I planned it use it as a diversion when people showed up and tried to start the Inquisition.. Well I passed out at the desk. About half an hour later I came to & was very calm. I came upstairs and was fine until H said this aloud to the entire seated room:
" Even though my wife E has not attended many family gatherings and avoided Passover in the past I would like to say I am very pleased that she has finally agreed to be present today."
I could see my one friend who had dared to come-- grimace.
I learned over to my H and said aloud - "I don't know whether to stab you with a fork or divorce you on the spot. " The room was so silent you could hear the birds outside and then someone laughed and then everyone went back to their arguing and carrying on like nothing had happened.I got up from the table and took the other half of the Valium and went to bed.The hardest part that day was waiting for everyone to leave. Then we had the "mother of all fights" I spent the next 2 weeks on the couch as I was so PO I couldn't speak. Little did I know at the time, H was having an affair. We embarked on marriage counseling again.
Sorry to digress but I have a lot of anger and we have done a lot of counseling but H just keeps at it.
So to get back to the present...
The new (work in progress) me thinks to myself : " this is the part of being my best self . "
Melissa told me it might get worse before it gets better as H might ramp it up trying to 'get me'. Hopefully H loses interest and sees that it get him nowhere and finally stops whatever this game is. Ok so I am going to suck it up but I don't know how frankly as H is adept at wearing me down.
It is very very difficult. Last night, I watched H ( who is borderline diabetic but well controlled on one med just 2 times a day) eat one small bag of Chex mix, his plate and the half of mine I would not eat of spaghetti & meatballs & 4 cookies. I ate 1 cookie that had 70 calories/ 40 of it fat calories. Then he puts another in front of me and says " ok just one more."
He keeps it up until I finally eat the fing cookies. I mean I had had enough. I did not like myself after that and at 9:45 pm I said "I am going to bed." He said " well- I am going to bang on computer a bit."
I said " For 3 nights last week you fell asleep on couch- I got up to pee and saw you asleep & snoring & leaning over touching your knees while still on the couch. If you want to do that tonite or do that in your office chair.-Be my guest. I am done coming in to wake you. This is what the course said about getting out of the parent/child relationship. I am no longer going to wake you up 4 or 5 times and ask you to come to bed."
I went into the bathroom to brush my teeth,
He just stood there for 5 minutes and said " Oh so you re saying I should come to bed.?
I said " That's up to you- it is your decision." And about 5 minutes later he came to bed.
I mean WTF.
Does anyone else have this constant barrage of BS on a daily basis?
If it is this way and I am not alone then I can take some solace in that...
I exert so much stress in anticipating the next onslaught. I am seeing a psychiatrist and I am the one who took on the couples course. H did offer & we did do part of Session 4 last Sunday but it seems he has ramped up his BS since then. Maybe this is the part where it " gets worse"
The opposition is so much more noticeable since I have been trying to reign my stuff in. It could be PA.
I just have to stick it out? Right?
E Memory and Learning ?
Submitted by kellyj on
It's really interesting E....to hear the He said....she said.....here as you gave these examples? I really do get a lot out of context like this and ( just saying ).....he said...she said....is not good in the moment if you are trying to communicate ( since it just leads to conflict )........but it really useful to here it 3rd party or to hear it in an example here since I get a lot of information out of it myself personally? And I ...like you get a lot out of metaphors and imagery......in that it paints a visual picture as well so you can "imagine" what things are like by putting yourself into the picture? In the sense.....this is all abstract kind of thinking which ( as an Artist ) it kind of goes with the territory?
On the other hand....I'm really good ( my best subjects in school )....with English: writing, foreign language ( phonetic different ) of sounds , literature, blah blah bah.......naturally speaking? In fact....as far as Art goes....noticing the subtle differences in styles or recognizing styles or categories of Art: whether in music, photography, paintings., cooking....you name it..all come naturally to me and were easy for me to understand and apply right away? I can sum this up into one simple statement: " I can tell the difference " Meaning....I can recognize in a split second...the difference between ONE THING....and another THING....simply put? "I can tell the difference....because I know the difference?" But in that last sentence....one came first ...before the other? Meaning...I could tell the difference.....before I knew what that difference was? I know that makes no sense so I will attempt to explain it here which is almost impossible to do but I will give it a try?
Once I knew what that difference was ( later when I found out what it was ) I could explain the difference to you then as well? But as far as my learning days in school goes.....I can definitely tell you how I learned things BEST...and ....WORST...and what my stand out feature was to get me through school? Rote memory and Rote learning? I lived and died on those two things...but also saying....my Rote memory is beyond good and when I commit it to my Rote memory in a sense....I almost never forget it even if I don't use it.....I don't lose it.....as one might say? LOL Phone numbers, dates, lock combinations ( data entry you might say lol )....and cramming for tests....I was a wiz at test taking but I could rarely....explain it back to you with any real understanding when I was in school. I was just a really good 'sponge" and absorbed information.quickly ( instantly almost sometimes )...but when squeezed you might say....I could Parrot it back to you without a hitch in a literal sort of way? Monkey see.....monkey do? Copy catting was my specialty : mimicking, re-enacting, physical movements and gestures, and using my hands to describe things...or painting those word pictures or images....to help explain things to people as well? In fact....I use to have a terrible time explaining things to others...without drawing them a picture..and then talking about the picture and pointing to the things in the picture...and talking about them or explaining them in a visual way?
So you'd have "Mr J....could you tell the class WHY it is.....we do this thing?" ( duh? I don't know? )LOL Well then....can you tell the class WHAT this answer is here? 2 !! ( instantly giving the answer...but I couldn't tell you why? LOL
Here's a bunch of explanations and different types of learning and memory data which is all relevant here I think?
Receiving 20% ( audio visual, lecture, reading ) ( me...poor way to learn except reading on this list )
Participating 20- 75% ( play, demonstration, exercises, discussion ) ( again...on the low side of this as far as retention goes steering to the 20% rather than the 75% as a rule? )
Learning by Doing 75% ( with a coach, Immediate practicing ) (this is me all over the place. This is the best way for me to learn anything and I can learn it in a fraction of the time...compared to the other two types...Sometimes....right there on the spot in an instant which is really weird and hard to explain?
Explicit memory (or declarative memory) is one of the two main types of long-term human memory. It is the conscious, intentional recollection of factual information, previous experiences and concepts.[1] Explicit memory can be divided into two categories: episodic memory, which stores specific personal experiences, and semantic memory, which stores factual information.[2]
Declarative memory's counterpart is known as implicit memory or procedural memory, which refers to unconscious memories such as skills (e.g. learning to ride a bicycle).
Episodic memory consists of the storage and recollection of observational information attached to specific life-events. These can be memories that happened to the subject directly or just memories of events that happened around them. Episodic memory allows for mental time travel – recalling various contextual and situational details of one's previous experiences.
Some examples of episodic memory include the memory of entering a specific classroom for the first time, the memory of storing your carry-on baggage while boarding a plane headed to a specific destination on a specific day and time, the memory of being notified that you are being terminated from your job, or the memory of notifying a subordinate that they are being terminated from their job. The retrieval of these episodic memories can be thought of as the action of mentally reliving in detail the past events that they concern.[2] Episodic memory is believed to be the system that provides the basic support for semantic memory.
Semantic memory refers to general world knowledge (facts, ideas, meaning and concepts) that can be articulated and is independent of personal experience.[3] This includes world knowledge, object knowledge, language knowledge, and conceptual priming. Semantic memory is distinct from episodic memory, which is our memory of experiences and specific events that occur during our lives, from which we can recreate at any given point.[4] For instance, semantic memory might contain information about what a cat is, whereas episodic memory might contain a specific memory of petting a particular cat. We can learn about new concepts by applying our knowledge learned from things in the past.[5]
Other examples of semantic memory include types of food, capital cities of a geographic region, or the lexicon of a common language, such as a person's vocabulary.[2]
Autobiographical memory is a memory system consisting of episodes recollected from an individual's life, based on a combination of episodic (personal experiences and specific objects, people and events experienced at particular time and place) and semantic (general knowledge and facts about the world) memory.[6]
Spatial memory is the part of memory responsible for recording information about one's environment and its spatial orientation. For example, a person's spatial memory is required in order to navigate around a familiar city, just as a rat's spatial memory is needed to learn the location of food at the end of a maze. It is often argued that in both humans and animals, spatial memories are summarized as a cognitive map. Spatial memory has representations within working, short-term and long-term memory. Research indicates that there are specific areas of the brain associated with spatial memory. Many methods are used for measuring spatial memory in children, adults, and animals.
A 2015 meta-analysis of high quality evidence found that therapeutic doses of amphetamine and methylphenidate improve performance on working memory, episodic memory, and inhibitory control tests in normal healthy adults.[
Choking under pressure
It is well established that highly practiced, over-learned skills are performed automatically; they are controlled in real time, supported by procedural memory, require little attention, and operate largely outside of working memory.[26] However, sometimes even experienced and highly skilled performers falter under conditions of stress. This phenomenon is commonly referred to as choking, and serves as a very interesting exception to the general rule that well-learned skills are robust and resistant to deterioration across a wide range of conditions.[27] Although not well understood, it is widely accepted that the underlying cause of choking is performance pressure, which has been defined as an anxious desire to perform very well in a given situation.[27] Choking is most often associated with motor skills, and the most common real-life instances are in sports. We have all[tone] seen highly trained professional athletes deteriorate under pressure and perform so poorly that in the moment they seem like beginners[dubious – discuss]. However, choking can occur within any domain that demands a high level of performance involving complex cognitive, verbal or motor skills. "Self-focus" theories suggest that pressure increases anxiety and self-consciousness about performing correctly, which in turn causes an increase in attention paid to the processes directly involved in the execution of the skill.[27] This attention to the step-by-step procedure disrupts the well-learned, automatic (proceduralized) performance. What was once an effortless and unconscious retrieval execution of a procedural memory becomes slow and deliberate.[25][28][29][30] Evidence suggests that the more automated a skill is the more resistant it is to distractions, performance pressure, and subsequent choking. This serves as a good example of the relative durability of procedural memory over episodic memory. In addition to deliberate practice and automization of skills, self-consciousness training has been shown to help with reducing the effect of choking under pressure.[27]
Flashbulb memory
A flashbulb memory is a highly detailed, exceptionally vivid 'snapshot' of the moment and circumstances in which a piece of surprising and consequential (or emotionally arousing) news was heard.[1] The term "flashbulb memory" suggests the surprise, indiscriminate illumination, detail, and brevity of a photograph; however flashbulb memories are only somewhat indiscriminate and are far from complete.[1] Evidence has shown that although people are highly confident in their memories, the details of the memories can be forgotten.[2]
Flashbulb memories are one type of autobiographical memory. Some researchers believe that there is reason to distinguish flashbulb memories from other types of autobiographical memory because they rely on elements of personal importance, consequentiality, emotion, and surprise.[1][3][4] Others believe that ordinary memories can also be accurate and long-lasting if they are highly distinctive, personally significant,[5][6] or repeatedly rehearsed.[7]
Flashbulb memories have six characteristic features: place, ongoing activity, informant, own effect, other effect, and aftermath.[1] Arguably, the principal determinants of a flashbulb memory are a high level of surprise, a high level of consequentiality, and.................." perhaps emotional arousal." Perhaps? Like......Passion?
Passion
strong and barely controllable emotion.
"a man of impetuous passion"
Further on it explains the accuracy of "Flashbulb" memory saying
Accuracy
Many[who?] feel that flashbulb memories are not accurate enough to be considered their own category of memory. One of the issues is that flashbulb memories may deteriorate over time, just like everyday memories. Also, it has been questioned whether flashbulb memories are significantly different from everyday memories. A number of studies suggest that flashbulb memories are not especially accurate, but that they are experienced with great vividness and confidence.[15][16] Many experimenters question the accuracy of Flashbulb Memories, but rehearsal of the event is to blame. Errors that are rehearsed through retelling and reliving can become a part of the memory. Because Flashbulb memories happen only a single time, there are no opportunities for repeated exposure or correction. Errors that are introduced early on are more likely to remain. Many individual see these events that create Flashbulb memories as very important and want to "never forget", which may result in overconfidence in the accuracy of the flashbulb memory.[17] The most important thing in creating a flashbulb memory is not what occurs at the exact moment of hearing striking news, rather what occurs after hearing the news. The role of post-encoding factors such as retelling and reliving is important when trying to understand the increase in remembrance after the event has already taken place.[18]
Such research focuses on identifying reasons why flashbulb memories are more accurate than everyday memories. It has been documented that importance of an event, the consequences involved, how distinct it is, personal involvement in the event, and proximity increase the accuracy of recall of flashbulb memories.[19]
All I have to say is this as far as what was just said about Flash Bulb memory and ME ONLY here? I seemingly....have this ability for Flash Bulb memory that is NOT related to a traumatic event or even works as this just said? I highlighted the parts where the research has it's doubts about accuracy and deterioration over time? And I understand this too in that I have had times of being suddenly scared or frightened or times or great joy and elation ( like most people in this explanation ) and I know that well? But with me...it doesn't work that way. My "flash bulb"...can go off...with the slightest interest or "passion" automatically......or......I can make it go off or trigger it.....by becoming highly emotional or emotionally invested in something "on purpose"...by simply looking at the consequences ( like failing a test? ) or needing to remember something of importance...and just making it important ( like an area I'm not all that interested in )....and Laser Focusing on it? I'm saying there is hyper focus that is somewhat ( subconscious ) and then there is Laser focus with intention....and passion and emotion do come into play here? All I have to do...is "think it"....and....."therefore it is" in this case? That last phrase is usually used to describe someone who just "thinks shit up"....and then makes it reality in a creative way of just not accepting reality and just seeing what you want to see selectively? That's not how I am taking this phrase and using to it describe .....JUST THE OPPOSITE OF THAT!! I can think it.....meaning.....I want to remember and make sure I do....and "flash"...in the moment...not later after the fact.....and I somehow can permanently remember that "thing"...and instantly commit it to memory in the same Flashbulb memory.....but this just happens automatically like I said? I can't NOT DO IT....is what I am saying? But I can do this at anytime....whether it's highly emotional or not? Sometimes and mostly...it just happens all the time on it's own. But I can make it happen too....by Laser Focusing which requires a lot of "forced of attention"...and then getting in the Zone. And what I mean by getting in the Zone.....it means I transcend hyper focus which is rather narrow in scope....and go into Laser Focus or in the Zone mode....and I see everything clearly.....the entire picture in front of me in a spit second and I instantly know exactly what to do and I do it reflexively to the environment ( in it's entirely ) and I don't even have to think about it? The mention about....not needing any expertise or past experience...is right on the money? I seem to have this knack ...for doing things I have never done before ....even once.....with no prior practice...and demonstrate a level of competence....that is somewhat unexplainable? In other words....I can think on my feet...and do what ever needs to be done....even if I haven't done it before...and actually do it pretty well the first time out with no prior experience and this is part of it I think which is the only way to describe it?
So when I say that I was born with a gift...that I cannot explain? Artistic inherent God given skill? This is what I am talking about...but it's not only handy with Art either? My ability to just....."Pick Something Up"...as they say.....is kind of weirdly "off the chart" in a way that even amazes me and I have no means to describe it? Like....in the moment...and having never done it before? This applies to all motor skill activities across the board? You name it? Sports, Art, Dancing ( even if I really wanted to which mostly I have to be pretty drunk but...I am a good dancer none the less? LOL ) You might call it....finesse? Or you might call it.....eye hand coordination.........or you might call it...."a feel"....or a "touch".....but anything "physical" like this....I don't have to really try very hard to learn..and learn quickly ( in the moment on the spot )...on my own without anyone there to help me? What this is the opposite of.....is "clumsy" ...if you were to put it that way? I am the counter part to clumsy for sure...and my balance has always been one of my best features?
Moving on here to the next memory item and this concept......
Rising to the occasion
If choking on skill-based or co-ordination oriented tasks requires the pressure of the situation to cause the performer's increased conscious attention to his or her process of performance, then the reverse can also be true.
A relatively unexplored area of scientific research is the concept of "rising to the occasion."
One common misconception is that a person must be an expert in order to have consistent success under pressure. On the contrary, implicit knowledge has been hypothesized to only partially mediate the relationship between expertise and performance.[31] It works closely with a perceived control of the task, and can often trump expertise if the performer embodies procedural comfort within the domain. Traditionally, "rising to the occasion" or being "clutch" has been used in reference to sporting feats of particular excellence given the magnitude of the event, however there is increasing awareness to the phenomenon in our everyday life. How one performs under circumstances that do not necessarily present immediate or grave consequence, but do require the performer to actively access a conscious mechanism to perform in unfamiliar or uncomfortable settings, is a concept that may prove educationally beneficial across a variety of disciplines and activities.[32]
Which is why I was glad you included this scenario with your husband with the making the bed example? It was a good one for me to make comment on now and tell put myself into that position with you now? And this is where I could get into trouble if I am not careful in sounding arrogant or like I am blowing my own horn? I never discuss this with anyone ever first off...because I already know what that will get me? Disbelief, thinking I'm conceited, thinking I'm some how..."special" ( or trying to make myself out to be ), people getting angry with me, people putting me down, people saying anything and everything to disparage me or tell me I'm wrong, or people in general...just not liking it....so I never say anything like this...except here just to give you an example? And this is also where I have trouble working directly with others on things in joint cooperation....because of this very thing I will describe so you might get the "Picture?" LOL Also I want to point out...that I devolved this ability which started with these "gifts" over time from where it started as a kid...but it was still there as a kid....I am just much better at it now? When I say I am a Jack or All Trades and a Master at Some? I am actually being serious....but I don't normally say that either!! LOL I guess what I am saying here...is that I have learn to do the opposite of "brag" and just keep these things to myself because mainly....people don't normally respond very well....when you tell that you can do thins that they can't do or on average for the most part....."people in general" can't just do without having to learn how first? It's weird...I'm telling you!! I'm a weirdo...what can I say? LOL ( strange, bizarre, unusual, weird out of the norm....all the above ) To take a more negative approach which is normally more palatable for most people....instead of saying....."I'm gifted"? People don't respond well to that...so I just keep a tight lid on that one and never say it for obvious reasons I think? And just let my "Art" speak ONLY...in this case...and even then it pisses people off sometimes? Enough qualifiers I think?
So in that example with the bed sheets per se here? I might not ever have done bed sheets and pillow cases....but I could walk in and sum that up in about 30 seconds and know exactly what to do..and how to do it....and do it in the most efficient way without anyone saying it to me. Saying...not only do it well...but do it fast and efficiently right then in the moment? And never having seen it before..and never having done it before?
So if that was my wife for example...this is exactly how it would go down but now I ( instead of what she does as the rule ) will give running commentary here which I never do which is kind of fun for me...since I never do this for reason stated above?
She would do the same thing and want me to do that with her and give her a hand and with me standing there and her starting out by telling me ( directing me ) the proper procedural list of steps and what she is doing? This isn'[t her lecturing ( as in teaching me ) it's just her giving direction in "how it's done" right? And if I were to say anything at this point...it would go badly so I don't ( the norm for me anyway....for an important part of doing things jointly with other people? People in general...tend to do things in a procedural ( linear progression ) based on the instructions that they learned or read and just follow them as said? But remember in this situation...I have NOT read any instructions or procedures....I just "accessed the situation" and put the pieces together in the most efficient way and for the most part...it will line up with any instructions...however....many times instruction are designed to be simple and easy to understand and are not always the BEST or most efficient means to do something....just the easiest to perform? So I may deviate as needed to perform it faster...more efficiently or BETTER...in relationship to how it is proposed? I can see the path from A to Z and how to get there all by myself? I don;t really need anyone to teach me.....since I learn on the spot? So...I can see my way of doing it? I can see "the proposed ( from the instruction book ) way of doing it"...and I can see her way of doing it....all at the same time...if you can imagine me never doing this before....and not having any instruction book to work from many times if it is a simple task or procedure that requires no technical skill or knowledge to perform ( intuitively that is ). This is by the way....how I have made my living so to speak? Seeing a better way to do it...by making the comparison..and seeing instantly how I can improve it...to make it better? By design that is...or redesigning it ...in the moment in a split second or maybe less than a minutes time?
Anyway...on the example here? My wife would start telling me how to do it....and me going....( it doesn't matter...I don't care...but it's not the best or way or the way I would do it...based on what I see...not on what someone said or told me ...the right way to do it? There is no "right way"......there is the most efficient way to yield the best results is all?a That all I'm interested in...but it doesn't matter when it comes to bed sheets and pillow cases does it? Not really so completely don't care? My goal is just to work with her together...so I'm following her lead and just copying what she does? I also know another interesting fact here and it's not just my wife but especially with her? If I were to expect her ( or anyone else to follow me in what I "see" ) not what I "know"...then I would have to explain this all to them and tell them what I know and I don't want to do that because with my wife especially....she cannot follow? Literally...she cannot follow any instructions...than the ones she already knows so anything different...will be met with hostility or irritation and that I try to avoid at all costs!! And she is not the only one I have experienced this with in fact...I have experienced this plenty and I will give you a couple of examples?
One time I took a class in Life sculpture ( nude model ) and I missed the first class? ( first time ever ) When I walked in..I was the only guy in the class except for the instructor who was a professional sculptor and had some commissioned work right here in our city in a couple of public parks which was really cool and he is very talented? So there was this one lady there who made it clear that she was a student..and a working Artist herself...and was kind of going around and making sure everyone knew this ( kind of stating out her territory you might say ) and she was kind of brown nosing the instructor...and being a little bit of the center of attention too? So here I am...walking in late with a group of women kind of giving me the look like I might possibly be there because the model was a woman ( not bad looking either for an Art model ( naked ) which is sometimes hit and miss? ) I just got that impression or reticent "look" right at first....like I was intruding a bit in the Zen of the class!! LOL Anyway, saying that...as an Artist in an etiquette way of human form? In other words...she had a nice bod and she was well proportioned? LOL
So ...the rest of the class had already done the preliminary..and had already started since I missed the prior week and they were already sculpting with clay..amd the teacher apologized but told me he wouldn't be able to go over everything I missed and just gave me a 5 minute run down explanation which I told him was enough for me to understand and away I went which meant....I was doing mu thing...on my own in my own way mostly with that little start in help from the instructor?
So by the 3rd week now...our sculptures were in various degrees on completely based on each persons level of performance and how far they were getting? I had a lot of experience craving and modeling before..so I was really coming along and my sculpture was taking form? And a couple of the ladies were kind of ooing and awing how mine was coming....but this one lady was bad vibing me and giving my sculpture the stink eye and kind of got really quiet? Her piece looked great...only it was kind of abstract looking which it was not an abstract course but "real life " copying...as real as you can get to the model standing there in front of everyone which is easy to compare one persons piece to the next and look at the model to compare to? And mine was pretty darn close...to looking and feeling "life like" which was the whole point of doing it? And the entire time...I was not saying much of anything and just being really quiet and just keeping my head down and working? So this lady finally goes over to the instructor ( thinking I couldn't hear her but I could LOL ) and voiced her complaint...that I wasn't following the proper procedure or course outline like she was which was really petty and like? Who gives a damn right? It's a freaking night adult class for fun anyway?? And I hear the instructor quietly tell her to mind her own business in a more indirect way? And then he came over to my piece and stood there and looked at it...and then he just reached over and pushed and showed a couple of things and rearranged them a little better and then walked away? And I looked and I saw what he did..and saw why he did it? And I knew what he did.and why..and he knew he didn't have to say anything? He knew..the same as I did...and this woman...did not? She could not wrap her head around why my piece was turning out more accurate to the real life....even though she was following the directions on the box and this pissed her off? Not only did it piss her off...but hers wasn't looking as close to the model as mine was on top of it....I was doing it wrong!!! God Damn it!!! LOL
And the same thing happened in another class...but this time it was the instructor who got pissy when everyone was asked to put your "sketches all up on the black board" next one another to critique them as a group? The thing is...I don't go around telling people my experience or what I can do especially in a class so the instructor didn't now that either? But in comparison...my sketch ( another life drawing ) was again...pretty darn accurate to the point that it was on par with the instructors sketch of the model he was using as a means to compare and contrast to as a learning tool? And I said nothing but just listen to his critique until he got to mine? He was exceedingly more critical of mine than the others....but the others were more on par of what you might expect from a class like that which was more than cool? I love to see other peoples Art and there is no such thing as bad Art in that respect...but their is such a thing as "BIG EGO's" and this instructor had one? That was the point...mine wasn't suppose to look as good as his...but it did and that pissed him off? The other sculptor instructor had no competition from me what so ever....his work was stellar..and way beyond what I could do even if mine was really good...for a first timer...in that respect? Stand out good...compared to anyone else in the class? And FYI: once all those ladies saw my work...they no longer thought I was a pervert and we all got along splendidly...except for Miss Sour Grapes over in the corner? LOL
And I can sum this up in two words because I know this sooooo well? It's called "Stealing Thunder" but in respect to me.....I am not trying to or care what so ever ( get no Thunder Myself by stealing others ) ...but this thing ( or gift ) I have sometimes...does it for me and it really does piss people off and they treat me poorly because of it? Not everyone....just some people like I said. And with me...I could care less and I really don't give a damn about my ego and what it looks like.....I am passionate only in the work and craft and the end result and that's it? That is...for me and what I get personally from it...whether anyone else likes it or not? And unless they are paying or I am doing it for them...then I really don't care what they think and it doesn't matter at all in that case. I have absolutely no desire...to be center stage in fact...for the reason I just said....I keep my head down and say nothing because of it and this is the reason why? I have run into that ALL my life in respect to just this one type of thing...and I know better, than to say anything...because of this very reason?
So now...back the bed sheets. If you take what I just said an apply it here? I am not doing this....for me.....for her....or with that intention? I am trying to do it "with her"...which means...I have to do it her way and follow her...because she is defiantly not going to follow in in everything I just said and I know that from the get go...even with other people as well?
But if you are with me so far....there is another things to consider here? If I was doing my Art...and trying to do it with my wife? Then it wouldn't turn out right or look good in comparison to doing it alone...which is why I don;t work with people in joint cooperation...unless they are on par with me like the Sculptor instructor who didn't say a word...and I understood clearly? There is no need for words if you are on the same page like that.....showing...is way more valuable than "telling"...and the worst and most possible means to screw up a join t operation...is someone like my wife who only knows how to "direct" or "dicatate"? She is the last person on this planet...I would ever pick to do an joint Art project together if the goal was to be accurate and "life like" since...she would just do it by the numbers...and it would come out stiff and kind of wooden ( in an abstract way ) like the woman who thought she was so talented...because she took a bunch of classes and had graduated to a certain level of performance? That is...by rote repetitions...and just Parroting or copying what she was taught to do? And that was as far as she had got...in just repeating those base skills she was taught by the book and by the numbers and she was really very good up to the point of.....taking it to the next level which requires more than just role learning and applying it in a linear way?
The only way to do that...is you have to see it, and feel it....and work by sense of "touch" or "feel"...which requires a skill that most have to learn as it appears? Which is that weird unexplainable le phenomenon with me in that....I didn't have to learn it......it was just given too me and no one taught me how? What can I say? Not much else because...I can't help that either? Which I'm not complaining about? LOL
So in terms of me with my version of ADHD...my strengths that come along with it are:
Spatial learning and memory. Freakish bizarre version of Flash Bul memory that works when it shouldn't compared to other people ( apparently???) and hands on learning which is the best and most efficient means with a whopping 75% retention rate? It appears all my memory in terms of long term and learning...are operating pretty normally plus...the added bonus in how did it say this "special-mechanism hypothesis, which argues for the existence of a special biological memory mechanism that, when triggered by an event exceeding critical levels of surprise and consequentiality, creates a permanent record of the details and circumstances surrounding the experience.[
Yeah that one!!! lol And in respect to my wife (which is not uncommon as I said ) is more on the side of irritation and disbelief...and not believing me when I say I remember things accurately because I can tell you one thing for sure....she is missing some parts of hers compared to mine....and I know this as fact since....I remember things that she cannot remember (AT ALL) with us both being in the same room at the same times since....I do remember it...and she just can't believe I can which is beyond frustrating....when I can picture it clearly in that "flash bulb" type gift I have( which also works in things that are spoken or said too sometimes ) ...and it really is highly accurate for me at least.since.....I got my way through my entire schools years with it by telling you the answer...without having any idea as to why? LOL Thank God for True/ False Multiple choice testing...otherwise...I would have flunked!!! LOL Not anymore...but back in the day? Yes for sure!!! I did finally catch up...but it was struggle to finally get a handle on it which I was able to pull off eventually by the time I graduated High "School. But just barely!!! LOL
But that opposition you were mentioning as well? With my wife? She can't follow. Both literally and figuratively...so I always have to let her lead even if I don't actually follow her...when I see he path is missing any logic and is based on emotions in the moment it seems and very little of anything logical at all? Her path...is the emotional path to get there? And my path is based of efficiency, logic and my gift of sight mainly? My ability to learn in the moment based on what I see...is really what I rely mostly on because that was my gift and strength? If I wer to follow her instructions or direction? It would turn out wooden and stiff and without any life to it at all? Just like in my example which is how I can tell if someone has the gift or not? My sculptor instructor had the gift...and we spoke the unspoken language of someone who has it and few words are needed in that case which is just the facts when needed...and nothing else the rest of the time? Birds of a feather.....takes one to know one?
I'm thinking this is why one my other strengths appears to be rising to the occasion....instead of choking which is true as well? It could be the Apocolype.actually happening in real time...I would be your go to guy and the one to have in your boat....big time!! LOL That would be me.....I'm a clutch player for sure.
My wife on the other hand...is the like the extreme opposite of me...and there was one more bit of memory that was mentioned in all that I looked up where when I saw it...it struck a cord or resonated with my experience with my wife when I read it? Another type they call....Episodic - Like ...memory which refers to animals only ( not humans )
Purported episodic-like memory often seems fixed to a particular domain or could be explained in terms of procedural or semantic memory. The problem may be better tractable by studying episodic memory's adaptive counterpart: the capacity to flexibly imagine future events.
SHAZAM!!!! That's it right there? The adaptive counter part? Like somehow that's missing??? The capacity to "flexibly imagine future events" ? OMFG!!! lol If there was better explanation of why my wife...cannot plan...it's this right there? I can't know if this has anything to do with my wife or not...but the description compared to me really hit a nerve when I read it!! Episodic- like...but not actually it? Like something is missing perhaps? Seems to make sense to me but what do I know? I just read that off of Wikipedia and I really have no idea since this is way over my head to pull together for any one but me here for myself?
But that does explain one thing I do know? I can make a plan in an instant and carrying it out in the moment and never have done it before...and mu wife can't plan to save her own life sometimes...and even when she does do it so far in advance to allow for a problem....there is still a problem and she can't understand why? That much I do know...as fact since it is exactly what happens? My wife is the opposite of spontaneous....and I've got my picture in the dictionary next to the word Spontaneous and I can rise to any occasion on a dime without very much effort...if I have to that is. These two things...I know as fact!!! For sure!!! LOL Oh and FYI: Spontaneous...is not impulsive just so you know? I can tell the difference. One is consuious.thought..and the other one is a lot less conscious thought and more just a feeling?
J
Can I Wipe My Own A&%?
Submitted by eyekahlo on
Ok I was really hoping for some role playing suggestions--
I also see the funny not intended pun of the Learning Conversations sheets with my own bedsheets. Talk about coincidence!!
I have to say that what I learned --from the sheets/pillowcases stuff is the next time H asks 'can I help you with whatever etc. I say ' No thanks, I've got it. ' Issues prevented -no drama.
In the blow by blow example I gave previously, H volunteered genuinely wanting to help. I did NOT ask him. I did not give a monologue on how to put sheets/case on. I just happily went about it. I thought I was pretty neutral by saying - please hand me the pillow- it needs a case etc. Next time, I will just climb on the bed and get the pillow myself & put on case without asking him for any assistance.
Also I was trying to take a step back and observe the whole scenario- I searched for the trigger points that got H wacky. Maybe some of what I said could be taken as criticism- but I honestly feel no matter what I say he jumps on me. So in future, if H comes in to help- I will keep my mouth shut. ( I did by the way thank and praise him for helping me despite the blanket debacle.)
SO what I am saying here is day after day these trigger moments occur. SO this has happened in recent past and will prolly happen again-- so my tactic is that I will just shut the f up.
There will be no conversation no interaction about anything because H will become defensive at anything I say. Seriously!! I am not exaggerating. SO is it going to be a while before the game stops?
Will the game stop?
BUT-there's the but--in the meantime-I am feeling pretty much on my own. So I can come up to my office & rant on & vent into my journal or here. I cannot talk with a friend or family because I have worn that welcome out. So I end up being very, very needy. And food & sleep has been my go-to solutions in the past. I became very depressed. SO NOW I have got that pretty much under control with the help of my new psychiatrist.
You all must think: boy this chick sure likes to rant- I do but with one difference now after taking the course- I have stopped the 5 point treatise yacking to H on why this or that should or shouldn’t be. I have stopped defending myself. I am watching everything that is coming out of my mouth every moment of the day. I know I may slip-up.!! I never was in this ranting way- it only had gradually became part of my style as the years went on in my life /marriage. The kid chaos years were tough. H was busier and not around most of the time so he didn't get involved with much. I fed the dogs, the kids, did the bed changing or not alone. I also worked first for him- at his beck and call and then I got a job outside H's business. He was very PO about that for many years. But this was all beneath the surface. H would often call me up at work 4 or 5 times a day with minor requests that could have waited until I got home or he cold have solved himself. Caller Id was very "helpful" to me then. During this time H had his 2nd affair. I still had the depression and as I am finding out now -it was really Bipolar 2. So I did not get the right help or meds for over 2 decades. It wasn't all rosy. These problems have ben sowed slowly over the years. It seemed there was a correlation -looking back now with 20/20 -that H had an affair each time I asserted myself. Like he needed a "damsel" to rescue.
JJ_for the record- I can board up a fence with the rest of them and don;'t care if I break a fingernail. I understand what you said about your spouse. I meant that the fairy tale Cinderella story for ME-was that the Prince would show up and Happiness would be automatic. I knew there would be tough times- I just did not think that it was going to be battle the Dragon even thought the Prince supposedly killed the Dragon earlier in the plot. ALSO BTW-I was a tomboy as a kid and was more than happy to learn how to use a hammer. - it just was when my father was chasing me with it that things got twisted. (I appreciated your story and was screaming -do it yourself already to your spouse --way before you got to that :-0)
So I get it they are not going away overnight.
So fast forward to the last decade or so- with the last 5 years really getting difficult.
Everything in the marriage has had its cumulative effect and I erupted as in a volcano spewing..
SO now I get it- cease the yap- shut the mouth -cut out the extra details. I get it.
Since the onset of this course in October - it took me a while to get that. Now it has only been a few weeks--Am I expecting too much too soon?
I really have noticed how H is critical and opposed to everything that comes out of my mouth. even though I have stopped my "role".
This am the first thing H says- "how are you today? " I say " Fine, thanks."
So great so far things are off to a good start, right?- I thinking to myself. H does remark that-
" yesterday was a tough day and today is going to be as well." I say nothing.
I am in day 5 of nasty cold-that he is just about over himself.
H : " are you coughing up stuff " ( sorry to be gross, folks). I say nothing.
H : "I hope so" and walks away.
Shit now I need guidance in how to huck one up. (again sorry GROSS)
AS I said H started first with the cold - he got his usual Robitussin/decongestant tablets and dealt with it. When I came down with it- I found those items on my night stand. I said nothing. I just put them back in med cabinet.I don't use them for reasons: A,B & C.I did not get into it or discuss with H. Later H is in med cabinet and sees the stuff. H takes it out and puts back on my nightstand and says "You will need this." I calmly and neutrally say- "No thanks."
H says "well why not"
Again I am neutral-: "No thanks-don't use it".
H says " No- really why not?"
I say " I don't like that stuff and with my new meds it is a no-no."
he says " Really? why can't you take it?"
I say : "It's okay honey-- thank you though."
I leave the room.
Later I am mixing up my own version of cough medicine/expectorant in kitchen(honey, ginger, pepper,lemon juice, thyme & hot water). It always works for me and I have used it for at least 3 years.
He walks by and says: "Well that is pretty gross."
I say " Yeah it does look gross."
He says " what is it?"
I say: "My homemade couch medicine-" and I show him the recipes from Instructables.
He does not even look at it. He leaves room.
Later that night H says: "You need the Robitussin & decongestant tabs stuff "
I say nothing & ignore H even though the stuff is back on my nightstand.I say nothing.
Seriously, I am going thru this sort of BS everyday with everything.
I never realized how numerous these occasions were. I was too busy defending and criticizing back.
SO my questions to anyone who feels like commenting- is this typically what I should expect to continue--
Is this the part gets get worse before gets better part. Will H ever cease the onslaught?
I am finding myself not saying anything which is pretty damn close to how it was before we got into the unfortunate battleground about 5 years ago.
SO JJ - I get what you said about something in one of your posts earlier about H possibly trying thru his dragon to get me to understand what it was like for him as a kid. I have grasped the concept really well. It has dawned on me that-Maybe I have been rebelling from my own abusive childhood where I was definitely never heard, always over-ruled, verbally/physically abused, bullied etc & was unable to learn how to assert myself and now am fighting those demons- with my Dragoness and MS Smith. I am re enacting what I should have done then or at least tried to.
I feel like H is reenacting the stuff this parents did-especially his mom. Sort of a 'well this crap was done to me and now you can feel it too.'
And since the entire family was hell bent on being armchair experts - I can see this was their dynamic.
But NOW I want to climb onto my armchair and scream - ' hey wtf- get the f off my back. You are not the cough remedy expert,You don't know all there is to losing weight/dieting/You are not an expert on my meds etc" . I will refrain - that is definitely not my best self.
I have ordered all the books suggested with the course ( Codependent No More,Dance of Anger ETC) and am waiting for the snail mail to get it to me-prolly next week. So maybe some of this stuff will be covered and explained in greater detail.
Last night- H could sense that I was not in a friendly mood.I was just giving yes or no answers and not daring to open my mouth to comment or agree even with anything. We were in bed. H asked me about a certain thing I was doing.I have been doing this thing for over a decade.H asked me if such and such had happened yet. I said no still waiting.H then began to tell me in a sentence about this thing. It was completely inaccurate. I said nothing.
H then emphatically continued on " well bla bla. "
I turned over ( we were in bed) and I said very nonchalantly " I disagree-the definition of that is x."
H says nothing but does an automatic roll over so fast I thought there was a eject button in our bed.
H pulls out his phone ( I think to double check what I said. )and when he found out I was right he had nothing to say. Then H says well he had a real tough day today. And then H fell asleep.
I mean I wonder how H thinks I can wipe my own a%$.
No doubt he has instruction on that too.
So behavior-wise today, it is colder in this house than it is outside- relationship-wise that is.
H has called once to chit chat and I have answered with no drama no comments no questions no nothing just one word answers like ' ahh' ' good' 'ok' ' I see' ' thanks'. H always carries on about his work and the short mini version of his job site problems. And how difficult it has been.
When he does come home, he will bring flowers and prolly make another fantastic stew- he already has 3 in the fridge. He thinks that by bringing me flowers and making great food that he is making up for something. Or that this is the correct way to interact with a wife. By pass all the touchy feely stuff. I guarantee you H does not know what it is that is "wrong with me" If H does happen to ask me what is wrong- I will try to talk. He does not acknowledge what I am saying as having any shred of truth or merit. And he will invalidate anything I say no matter how NON criticizing it is or caring I make it. H will escape to his office or card game ASAP before he will even consider what I have said. I have also noticed a coincidence that H will approach me with important stuff only when I am half -asleep in bed or in the shower/bathroom or as he goes out door etc. The safe times where I have no chance to reply. He often brings up stuff only by text or by phone call ( & he playing is always playing a war or poker game on internet in background) or in an email.
What happens is this sort of thing goes in cycles- desert then dessert then desert and then volcano erupts and spews lava all over then re-growth eventually then repeat wash add creme rinse and repeat again.-- at least for me. What a hamster wheel!!
The difference for NOW-me is that I am shutting down my criticisms, seeing a psychiatrist, have meds, am on treadmill, etc & have taken the course and refer to it daily. I am doing course again bit by bit again in addition to the bit I am doing with H on Session 4.- ( BTW-H now says in middle of course that he" knows all this stuff." )
As I said I need to digest it slowly. SO maybe this time things will be different FOR ME. But I am not very hopeful that H is not going to shed the baggage of what has been the underlayment of his upbringing so quickly. H's Dragon and Mr Smith are hard at work. Nod to JJ,
And I am beginning to see the parallel Dragonflies and MS Smith in me.
But it is very obvious to me that H has several moats around his castle and his Dragon and Mr Smith have no dungeon --they all sit at the head of banquet table and polish their tactics.- some of which I am sure are passive aggressive. And I have read that PA are very difficult to get to "see the light"
I hear from a few on this site that things changed when their the spouse finally " got on board." I really feel that my H is not going to "get on board". It is too painful for him.He may not be capable of it.
AS I try to come to grips with this-- I know I am faced with very few options.
I am supposed to work on my best self- but I feel like as I polish myself up and put on my new outfit that H won't even change out of his worn out khakis.
No amount of hobbies like sewing, gardening, watching movies, fishing by myself or other stuff to make myself happy is going to fill the void that H is not with me to share or even embark onto any new adventures.
H is content with the status quo -to keep doing the same ol- despite what H may say when he isn't on my case. The denial river's banks keep a rising.
I mean their isn't enough chocolate hagen daaz to fill up this sorrow.
Thanks for listening.
Yep.......You Got It......I Can Build or Do Anything
Submitted by kellyj on
But I can't wipe my own ass? Okay....I'm getting the same thing you are here with my wife? No need to add any more to establish the fact that yes.....I actually know how to do a lot of things ( and even in my talented areas ) can do them really well to the point of being exception ( highly skilled ).....but as it appears to me...my wife simply thinks I can't....but I have some thoughts about what you said and you made the same point yourself rather quickly I might add....that you were a Tom boy in comparison to my ex wife who kind of had this "Princess" mentality which appears to be the opposite of you? Good point...and something to consider? I guess what I just spent so much space and writing in saying.....that I have skills and now how that even transcends what I know or have learned? A better way to say that I think? And I am confident in this ability I have because it's simple there? It takes no genius to now that if you lived in your own skin all your life and you have a really good feel for what you can do...and what you can't do......all by yourself? Taking ADHD out of the picture here for a moment...and just comparing Apples to Apples?
Not all men and woman....are born equally in there abilities and that much is simple and easy to understand? Some people can just do things naturally better than others and you don't have dissect it down like I did to understand this? But with all my struggles and things I'm NOT good with....obviously...I'm really good with some things to the point of ridiculousness? So how can I be so inept...in just certain things and not others? ADHD again....it's the only way I can see this? Those are ....my ADHD areas but.....ADHD does effect everything across the board....but I have obviously....fitted that into this too...but still have these talents that go way beyond normal so it means somehow......I learned and figured it out for myself without anyone there to teach me? Obviously!!!
And you are kind of saying the same thing in that respect? Just because you're a woman...doesn't mean you can use a hammer and nails or even think the same thing as my ex wife? Well how can that be.....you're a woman right? These "preconceived notions" and thoughts are really problematic and especially when someone just can't accept that people are just made differently not matter which gender you are? In fact....in that example in my class with the Art Student who viewed herself as someone who was really really talented because she had become so confident in here ability.....she did have a preconceived idea....of her place or position in respect to being superior or inferior...to everyone else based on this idea of herself in a very limiting way since....I walk into the room and somehow blow her theory right out the water? How does he do that??? That can't be right? That makes no sense? He didn't earn his stripes? He shouldn't be able to do that but yet he can? This makes no sense? BASED ON ME??????
I can tell you one thing that I did figure out a very long time ago....and it did apply to my own mother in the same way you are describing the cough medicine scenario and I do run into this with my wife as well? I can sum this up simply because "I lived this" on a constant level and it never seemed to change with my own mother for example who I saying...is the source for my ADHD?
My mom: " You can't do that " Four simple words that changed my life!!!! Truly!!! lol This one set of 4 words was something my mother use to say...and she said it all the time when I was younger of course....which from how I heard it in context? She was saying....."you aren't able to do that"....which took years before I finally figured out what she was really saying? And the reason I said that this changed my life? Is because I took that as a challenge now....and so as a kid.....those 4 words meant to me? " Oh yeah....we'll see about that!!! " Which proceeded with me doing...exactly what she told me......"you can't do"?
And just to clarify this a little better....it was presented more in terms of her saying....I am your mother....and you are not suppose to do that as if...there was some rule or law that says you can't? But if I tried to apply that to the times she would say that? Something wasn't lining up and it didn't fit to the scenario since it might be something that anyone "might do" in a moment...which had nothing to do with rules, etiquette, boundaries or anything of that nature to apply to it yet....there seemed to be some reason she was saying this but she wasn't telling me why?
"Why can't I???" I would ask myself? And yes...with my mother....it was as if......she was setting this up so I would have to come to her and get permission from her before I could do something? As it....I needed her Okay...to simply wipe my own ass? Exactly???? But as presented....it seemed....she still needed to give her Okay on things....that one might not think....you need to ask permission for which really is what just happened with my wife the other night...when she was requiring ( in the same way ) for me to ask her permission...before I showed her something on Youtube in just a causal way and in context to us just talking together normally? Like she was my mama perhaps? Which struck me......"weirdly funny" at the time? Weirdly funny since that immediately registered as inappropriate in fitting with the context or scenario in my lifetime of experience with anyone else? Aside from my own mother?
Just like you were saying about my ex wife going....."yeah...I was already thinking the same thing before you even said it?" Like..."what so hard about pounding a board with a hammer and having to have me do it such a simple thing that most anyone could do on their own? So why is this such a stumbling block to have it be an issue of such great importance and we are sitting in our T's office and even wasting the time talking about it? Like if she would have just done what he said to begin with....there wouldn't be an issue which is absolutely true?"
So why then was it? It was a role of sorts I think she saw herself as in that same persona she had adopted for herself? "I'm a princess"...or better......."I want to be a Princess" and think of myself as such? My ex did have that attitude or mentality of kind of needing to feel special or self important out of a lot of inner insecurity which I won't go into all the reasons why but it was true as my T explained to me based on her past and a need for that kind of validation from others to support this position or place she held herself ..or put herself into in the "image" she had of herself....yet...without any means to support this image she had or anything to really back it up? So it was a role...or a persona...that she adopted..and within that role.....she was playing her part which had nothing to do with being able to use a hammer and nail?
And the delusion or kind of..."fairy tale image" or role she adopted to fit what she wanted but she wasn't in that respect...was my ex wife's own denial ...of who she really was? It was fake...in other words....and with that "fakeness"....comes the hypocrisy? Know what I mean?
I was thinking about what I said to ADHDhighway-_to.....the other day about how I come down or not get into a fight with my wife when she is being unreasonable and accusing me of thins I'm not doing ( legitimately on my end ) and how I was running down the (legal scenario ) in kind of a court room kind of adversarial relationship and determining the roles and who's who so I could figure out where I stood? And boiling it down to what I was seeing as the conclusion that my wife's entire "premise"...or ...."position" was what was wrong (the forest not the trees). And then once I knew that...I knew that this "trees" discussion I was having with her was a waste of time until she could get on the same page as I was and she was not...and cannot do that at times!! Stubbornly...holding in her position?
And what this boils down to in all of this is the same thing I think? Who business is it anyway? And yes.....like this woman in that sculpting class....the teacher...basically told her that?
It's none of your business? But apparently....she thought it was? So why is that I might ask?
H says "well why not"
Again I am neutral-: "No thanks-don't use it".
H says " No- really why not?"
I say " I don't like that stuff and with my new meds it is a no-no."
he says " Really? why can't you take it?"
I say : "It's okay honey-- thank you though."
I leave the room.
Later I am mixing up my own version of cough medicine/expectorant in kitchen(honey, ginger, pepper,lemon juice, thyme & hot water). It always works for me and I have used it for at least 3 years.
He walks by and says: "Well that is pretty gross."
I say " Yeah it does look gross."
He says " what is it?"
I say: "My homemade couch medicine-" and I show him the recipes from Instructables.
He does not even look at it. He leaves room.
Later that night H says: "You need the Robitussin & decongestant tabs stuff "
I say nothing & ignore H even though the stuff is back on my nightstand.I say nothing.
Seriously, I am going thru this sort of BS everyday with everything.
So I don't over step myself here and make any speculations for anyone I don't know. I will go back to my own mother...since I knew her intimately you might say because this is the same issue I think?
And it is related to that external vs internal locus of control? Same scenario? My ex wife had the external type which looks for things outside herself to have control of her own life? And the same with my wife and my mother as well? Looking for power or control....externally instead of internally like I do? And this of course is completely a sub conscious process but in thinking about this more closely.....there is a certain type of "language" that develops from it...that has a certain "ring to it". Kind of self righteous...(like I know!! ) in a very assertive way? It is so sure of itself ( but not like grandiose Narcissism even if it might have that flavor ) its more from insecurity and compensating for it going the opposite way? My mother was not extremely assertive and not overly "bossy" and pretty much showed her insecurities right out in the open and wore them on her sleeve and didn't;t see herself as a highly competent person who believed she was? On the contrary...she was always apologizing for herself...and putting herself down in what looked....very uncertain and lacked self confidence? And for the most part....this is how she actually was and she was skilled only in what she was skilled in.....but she ....as I use to see her through my eyes.....was a fairly "incompetent" individual? But she was her own worst enemy there because she had more to offer than she actually believed? What she didn't believe in....was herself...and that was the bottom line with my mother?
Which is so ironic in how that played out with me? She would make those "statements" like that....or these "declarations" as said.....and literally would say or blurt out..."You can't do that"...in a highly assertive and affirmative way? And as I took that when I was little...was a challenge to "prove her wrong"...which caused me to do the very thing even more and harder...to show her I could do it? See how that worked as a kid? And for ever time she said that....I went out and proved I could do it...and learned a new skill each time it happened? She wasn't trying to use reverse psychology on me....but that was the effect it had going in the other direction which ended up...being a blessing for me since....I learned all those skills?? LOL It's almost crazy how that worked...but it worked for me in this case....because I didn't listen you her?
Which is kind of where you are now....when I finally stopped and did the same thing? Here I was.....doing all those hobbies and skills in order to prove to her I could because she said.. "I can't" in the second person to me.....and then....I proved "I could".....but did that stop her from saying it? NO!!!! LOL I was about 10 or 11 years old...when I figured out at least a couple of things that finally occured to me?
1) My mother had no idea what she was talking about
2) When she was saying "You can't do that"....what she really was saying is......"I can't do that"....but just in reverse of what she really meant to say but she was completely unaware of this constant Fo Pa ...in her language? I really did come to that conclusion on my own when I was only that age in fact....I had formed an opinion of my mother even back then that she could not be trusted in the things she said and I was on my own to figure these things out since she was going to be "NO HELP"...or support to me...in any way what so ever? I literally came to the same place you are right now with my mother ...at age 10 or 11 years old? But it wasn't;t that she didn't;'t want to or have it in her heart that she was doing that to hurt me or to "lie" to me since my mother was beyond an honest person in an almost Saintly kind of way? I knew that too...so I actually kind of intuited even back then...that my mother was kind of a "not with the program" as I might say even at that age?LOL
And that's just it? She would push me away but only in her methods with NO intention at all? And she was really a kind caring person so it had nothing to do with that? I just couldn't go to her when I really needed her....because every time I followed her advise....it somehow worked out badly for me? That much...I figured out rather quickly!!!!
So In that much....I trusted my mother implicitly to have my best interest in mind always. It's just that I didn't trust ....her words....and I got that clearly and understood that since it was really true?
And that's pretty much all I knew....but I remember with heart wrenching detail....that I wished I had someone I could turn too...to tell me what to do since in respect to this...she was like the last person I could trust and count on...to give me good advise? That was also true...and I know that without a second guess?
But now....maybe I should have second guessed myself and thought of this differently since it is what I am trying to do now...and listen to these things my wife says ...as a means to truly understand what she is saying? Knowing the why...helps explain what seems to not be obvious so I can at least give reason ( for myself ) to go against...thinking the things I apply to it in my own preconceived way? That does help me...like the internal vx external locus of control concept since this is really accurate when I put myself and my wife in the same room together? We are coming at things from the extreme opposite position or approach...even though when we finally get to the end of the struggling or even arguing over this stuff...we usually find that we are actual in a agreement for the most part...but it's these stupid petty stumbling blocks that we are actually fighting over...which is just exhausting and futile to even argue over in the first place?
But that thing my mother did...still rings true today? "You can't do that".....REALLY TRULY was or meant....."I can't do that"....but that's not how it came out...and it never came out any different and that would just seem so bizarre that someone would say just the opposite of what they really meant to say in terms of the word....."I"...and ...."YOU"....being the only problem? How hard is that to correct....you would think?? And even in those moments with my own mother...I started saying things like...." You mean you can't do it? Isn't that what you're saying since obviously I can do it....WTF's your problem MOM!!!!!" ( said in anger )
Or I would say "Don't pass off your incompetence onto me!!!! Just because you can'[t do it...doesn't mean I can't!!!!!!" Which again....quoting myself since I said that a lot? And who's this we?? You got a turd in your pocket??" I said all of those things....all the time to my mom...but did she stop or get the Point? NO!!!!! LOL I said those things until I was blue in the face...and it made no difference what so ever...so that didn't help or change anything except...it did register in the face of me standing there proving it to her face...but then she default by saying "you'll get hurt if you do it!! It's not safe!!!" And again...with in what tiny kernel of truth that was true in her statement...she was apostrophizing and taking everything to its final deadly conclusion and believing this will be inevitable..in a fatalistic morbid kind of way? That last part I didn't know then....I just knew what she was doing or realized what she was...but couldn't tell you why? My T told me the why part in that last bit..so that was him teaching me and me just adding it in her to help explain this better?
So yes E.....I lived that life in respect to wanting and needing to close to my mother...but every time she "butted into my business" she pushed me away like that and it made me feel very sad and lonely and this is how I spent most of my own childhood many times at home? Sad...and lonely.....for sure for sure? My father on the other hand I was doing my best to stay clear of..so this was about my mom and my relationship together which lacked that ability to trust and believe in the things she said? Which only caused me to go out..and find out on my own what part of it was right..and which parts were wrong because she was not wrong in what she was attempting to do.....it was her chosen method and her own incompetence standing in MY way in this case...when all is said and done?
But my mother was not aggressive or extremely bossy or forceful and she was kind of push over in that respect....but I really wasn't intestinally trying to be oppositional or defiant with that kind of attitude? My mother...bless her heart....Loved me to the day she died and I never questioned that for a minute with her? Her intentions were always honorable and from a good place and that part showed to me too? She was....a very easy person to forgive and I did fell very sorry for her at times because she was tell me privately ( just me later no one else ) that she was deeply unhappy with my father...and how much it hurt and she had just resigned herslef to this life...and it would never change for her ever?
So it there was anything I learned from any challenge laid in front of me from that experience...was to NOT be like her...and not give up trying but also.....not beat my head against a brick wall repeatedly doing only the same thing...and thinking things will change that way ...as they say...."the definition of insanity: doing the same action...and expecting a different result to come from it" No truer words could ever be said!!!! lol
So E....this is where I really want to point out...that I see the repeating theme here even without the why answer specifically in all these examples and your H's too?
-Not taking NO for an answer
-None of their business
-A need or compulsion to "make it there business"
-Apperently.....needing to do that for some reason that is not clear or visibly open to see as to why
-Insecurity...and feeling the need to feel better or superior by doing it that way? IE: taking on the role the "director" or person kind of somehow..."in charge of you and what you do and needing to know why you're doing it...and then making comment or opinion on it...when they don't like the answer? As if...that's going to change you mind by doing it that way? Seemingly?
-And you're going...."Hey!!! Back off!!! I don't need your unsolicited advise or help and I can wipe my own ass thank you??"
-Not understanding the difference between an "opinion"...or .....a " statement of fact?" ( CLEARLY OBVIOUS TO ME WITH MY WIFE OMG!!!! LOL ) And then....learning how futile it was to try and have a discussion or this oversight or inability to understand this difference
But mot importantly of all here for you since I can say this with absolute plosive affirmation from years of living with my own mother?
"YOU CAN'T DO THAT" ...MEANS......."I CAN'T DO THAT".........ALWAYS!!!.....HE/SHE WHO SMELT IT...DEALT IT!!!!!! lol Another one of my many come backs to my mother. I had a million of 'em....you might say? LOL Just know this and believe it....and apply it as such. I would almost bet my own life on this last part....I am that sure of it even if I cannot give you the exact reason or all the ways it is? Just know it...and believe it....that's all you need to know?
But now more importantly ...what to do about it? This is the moment of truth for you as well as me in this case? This is where you choose to sink or swim and stop chasing the Dragons tail along with your husband since he is obviously from what it sounds still in denial? When he can change the word "YOU".....to......"I"......like my mother couldn't do...is when he will no longer in Oz anymore...and has returned home to Kansas...so to speak? And without out second guessing myself for a minute here either...I'm sure I did that too...before I cam home to Kansas too? Even if I have my moments where I slip.....I'm still in Kansas...and not in Oz anymore and I'm never going back since I can't even if I wanted to? I took the Red pill...so to speak and there is no reversing it after the fact?
It literally is like you need an interpreter here to translate this into the same language you are speaking which IS the problem...but what is the fix? Nothing that you can do for him...but you learn to interpret and translate a little better I think. For a start...so you know what is being said and so you don't take it personally yourself?
I was just thinking about Pig Latin? You know...taking part of the word and exchanging it for the proper part and kind of reversing the order? That might work to help you translate it into the language your speaking so you actually know what he really means without trying to read into it and add more on top of it? Just simply reversing the order like I did with my Mom....really did help me understand this...even if I had no idea as to why?
And an update here to help share what I have learned to by just taking my T;s advise and not questioning him even when it goes sooooo against the grain to do it...and just to see if it worked? I found you have to know when to do it is all...since it doesn't not apply to everything unilaterally but just some things which I will give you one example that just happened last night? This is very much like the cough syrup example and it has to do with the thing I was so upset at with my wife...in her trying to convince me that everyone should ask for permission to show a stupid video on TV....like everyone should know that...which is only true for her? Take....."Everyone....and put......"I"....in it;s place?" She cannot say...."I"....so she has to use "YOU" or "EVERYONE" in it's place?
So if I take what she said...and put I don't think it's right or that you should just do that without asking me first ( get permission for her ) that does soften it a bit..and helps narrow this down? And it just so happened...it happened again last night...and she was kind of directing me with a bit of a reprimand ( not harshly but still ) and telling me "it's the polite thing to do...to state...your intention....up front...before you say anything" Well that is just wrong on all levels? You could never make an assertive statement to anyone...if you had to state your intention to everything SO they would know that first? It not even reasonable and further....no one but her requires that...which again......"You" ....flips...to "I" want....not what everyone wants....which is the way it's stated which from perspective...is almost retarded as a request which is it is....but moving past my own frustration here with you too.
She is trying to say something....but it's coming out all wrong? That much I have figured out and I trust in that much to start? So if I can't trust the words exactly...and I try and listen in context to try and determine the meaning or better....what she really needs that she doesn't know herself...which is why she is saying it in these ways that are not accurate at all? I know it's not intentional with the intention on deceiving the same as my own mother...bless her heart? But it is a form of desperation or has that flavor to it...which is why they are sooo insistent?
And really when it boils all the way to the very essence of it as far as I can tell? There is a need..and it is important to them...so I need to figure out not so much as to why....but how to give to them or fullfill this need so it both doesn't affect me so much...but also so they feel they are being heard and getting what they really want? And sometimes what they want is actually unreasonable in the moment...but there is still this nagging persistent compulsion they are fighting...to keep doing what they are doing?
So last night...I was about to reach for the remote ( again ) and show my wife something and I stopped ans asked her if it was Okay? And she said sure and then thanked me for asking? Now that wasn't that big a deal for me to do...and it might have seemed kind of ridiculous for me to have to but.....I have enough where for all to know...that just because it puts me into this kind of child loke role with her to have to ask first....it takes nothing from me really..and it's not that big a deal anyway even if I don't like the position it puts me in...and going along with what my T adivesd ( give her what she wants ) and just not question it? What I have come to my own truth about this is....anyone can question me on anything they feels like and they are free to do this...even if it's not appropriate and it's really none of their business? But...I don't have to question myself do I? If I know what I am doing....then I can stand my ground and be sure of it and self confident myself? I don't have to allow that to erode of chip away from my own self worth or self confidence...to lower myself occasionally and not have this "lowering effect" rub off on me? If I am being the bigger person...than I am being the bigger person?
And in that respect......I am being The BALL? Right? The Balls says....I am being bigger, stronger and not being petty and superficial...and that is what shows to the other person in this exchange? It's what "shows"....to them from where they sit which is the most important aspect to this? So then why should this have the opposite effect on me? I know who I am...and I know what I am? So no matter what is said....or what I say in return...it doesn't change my integrity? I don't need this...or I can take it.....or not....and it completely doesn't change anything with me? So what then? If she needs this...and she is even doing it in a way that kind of accuses me of wrong doing? If I know I've done nothing wrong....then I now it...and I own it? Right?
But I also don't have to leave or turn tail from it either? If I am not going to chase my own Dragons tail....then I'm not going to turn and run and hide from hers which is essence to my own mother back in the day...it's what I did back then? But I am a big boy now....know what I mean? I can handle it..and deal with it...and I don't have to run away with hurt feelings or feel disrespected by it even if this is somewhat disrespectful depending on the circumstances?
See this is the tricky part because I know what this looks like at times? What I said yesterday to OW about the behavior my own father had when he ignored my pain and suffering and took no part in admiring his part? I know and understand the motivation of a Narcissist in true fashion and I know what that means? I also know that they deserve nothing from me in that respect....not even the time of day on the street if they asked for it? In true fashion for a true blue Narcissist.....( apologizing up front here )....they go Fuck themselves...and the horse they rode in on...because they do not give a damn about me for one tiny moment ever!!! Like I said yesterday.....THAT...is some FUCKED UP SHIT...right there...I want nothing to do with it...and the last thing I want is to get any of that on me?
Intention and motivation is EVERYTHING!!! But knowing the difference is really hardest part? But you can't know the difference...until you take the chance to find out for yourself and it will show differently...in the results that you get after the fact?
So with my wife....as I asked her if that was Okay...she thanked me and reach out to me...it she showed me appreciation? Amd her demeanor changed and softened and she smiled and was very much in appreciation which showed itself to me and was revealed to me once I gave her what she wanted? A Narc is entitled and wouldn't act that way...appreciation? What is that? You owe it too me....why would I need to thank you for what is owed to me? Jeese...you idiot? Nothing like a poke in the eye with a blunt stick? LOL There attitude says.....well why wouldn't you? I deserve it? And that would show too.....in a difference in how the response would come back to you?
So you see....being able to determine this or look at objectively...requires you to get past yourself for a moment...to take a closer look to actually recognize it? If you are still wrapped up in feeling hurt and angry...then you won't be able to see it....and you won't know which is which because the behavior itself...as a similar feeling of entitlement and self righteousness to it for completely different reasons...and completely different motivations and intentions here? And at the end of the day...under the exact same circumstances...the two response you get back from either one....will be different at well? It's that difference in result is what I am getting at...it's the only way to really know? But you have to step up to the plate first...to flush this out of them in that respect? That does take...some internal strength and some inner belief in yourself...in order for you to do this?
So again last night...my wife made another similar statement or expressing some need she had.....when we were talking to together and she started misreading me against? As she said it...."people" like it when you state your intentions first...before you say anything?" "People? Or YOU? My experience says..."people" in general...can understand me just fine without me doing that? But I also know that sometimes I do get ahead of myself....but see...this where it really gets both annoying and frustrating? Like I said about my own mother? I could not trust what she was saying to be accurate and that was true? Same rules apply to my wife.....but I now myself well enough...and believe in what I know...to know that this is not the problem and not what my wife is trying to say?
What my wife is really trying to say is......"I am having a difficult time following you because I don't follow people well? In fact...I don't really understand a lot of things people say to me..and I misread and misinterpret them a lot since I have these distorted moments of self doubt and not believing in MYSELF so much....that I have trouble trusting what others say to me so if you would state your intention please up front...it would help me understand and process what you say better?"
And I would respond by saying....Yes...your right....and I do this thing where I can get ahead of myself and I don't always state my purpose or intention clearly which is part of it...but I realize that struggle with getting things in context to what I say sometimes and I know I can do better with this too so that's not problem and I appreciate you giving me the feedback.".....which really was kind of what I said to her anyway...even though she still presented it to me in the form of a demand or trying to guilt me into it...by using that accusatory method to do so in a self righteous way instead? This is that thing I mentioned about playing chess with a checkers player. In essence...I am by passing the BS...and getting right to it..without saying anything more than the response I would give...even though she didn't present it that way? I'm giving to her..and then saying up front what I see in the response which is not offensive....unless she was a Narc? A Narc would take offense at being told that they have a context problem and would react differently because of it? And the difference with my wife...is she softened and smiled and thank me instead we became closer....not further away?
It is the advise my T gave me...and he did say it to me simply in a way I can understand for her? As he told me "She never got what she wanted with her mother almost never? She had to beg for it..and lower and grovel to get anything at all? The act of even having to ask for it.....becomes a self fulfilling validation that she doesn't deserve it and it only makes her feel less insecure and that in itself is too much to take? It takes from her...to have to ask....so she is making it so you "should have to...or you should need to ask" in her mind....even though this isn't really right?"
So in making this comparison now......who's the Narc ( confirmed by my T? ) Her mother. The real one who needed to go Fuck herself and the horse she rode in on here? But no one told her mother off like that...and it they did...it made no difference? I saw this happen..and her mother had all the ear marks. Her mother was totally entailed..and nothing you said would change her position? Everyone was a beggar...at her mothers door.....and that;s because she saw her slef as superior..and she deserved to have to people grovel and she wasn't about to relinquish her power or control over you...no matter what you did? And the effect that had on my wife...went the opposite extreme...but it comes out looking the same or similar,....as well as the effect it has on you? The bottom line with her mother in this case? No Love Lost there....I can assure you? Because there was no Love to begin in the first place...because the only Love she had...was for herself in a self righteous way? He mother was a one way street to no where....and that was kind of the hallmark of a Personality disordered person like herself?
So with one....you have extreme grandiose entitlement and over self inflated self confidences in and arrogant and entitled way? The other comes for the other extreme...as in low self confidence and low self esteem which kind of brings to something or a point I wanted to say? This goes back to the experience I had with my ex wife now...which of course....ended up with her leaving me....but she actually left long before that which is the big thing I wanted to point out? She had a fair amount of that entitled persona in that "Princess" attitude...and within that Princess attitude..comes a fair amount of self righteous delusion in itself? In fact...kind of the counter part or counter "role" of playing in that play?
If you got a Princess...then the person she needs to have as her partner is a King...so to speak or father figure she didn't have or one she could look UP TO?? That not coming from a secure adult woman now....that's coming from more of an infantile position or place? So it a Princess...who needs a King...and you aren't a King yourself and are insecure and unsure of yourself in this way? Well....who's fault is that and how forgiving is the Princess going to be? Not very ...and not the person she is with...if that is her problem and she needs to grow up first? I wasn't her Daddy...and she needed me to be....so despite my failings with her....as mu T said to her...."hey , he's just a guy doing his thing" She put me in a role or position...I didn't belong in...and that wasn't my fault...but I did allow that to erode my self confidence....which only confirmed to her that I wasn't that person? She brought that all on herself...and I was just to dumb and unaware of my own self worth...to not have that effect me like it did? It wasn't my business...to be her Daddy...and that's what she wanted as in a father figure?
And in the same respect to my wife now but different still? It isn't my job to be her father or to make up for what she didn't get as a child...but...by fulfilling her need to feel like she is not a piece of dirt under her mothers rule.....I can do that...and do things that help her not feel that way in a compassionate way for her? And low and behold...when I give her that...she responds in kind with what I want too? I just have to keep that Pig Latin thing in mind...and replace the "YOU" ...with an "I" and turn that around so I don't misread her intentions which she is not even aware of herself? Which is also why.....if I state mine clearly for her as she ( kind of requested even though it's not presented to me in that form ( eh hem )......if I have to have it presented to me in that form because I am so small and weak and frail myself...then that says more about me than it does her....and I'm the one who needs to change here....if she is not able to do that for herself?
But...I was able to include this to her in the back door like I said...and each time I do that....I gave her what she wanted...and I got my two bits in and she heard me....( and allowed it ) since this was a gift from me...and I wasn't making it about her...but also admitting that I could do better myself? And guess what? It worked...and I got what I wanted in the end of it? We were closer...not pushed apart...and that all that I wanted in the first place....I just had to work a lot harder to get there that's all?
But in respect to a true Blue Narc in the same portion? "Fuck you and the horse you rode in on"...would still be my answer if that was the case?
However.......I just read an article in a magazine in my T;s office...talking about Narcissism in it's purest form which said only about 1% or the population...really qualifies for this diagnosis but ...it is a continuum or sliding scale to a certain degree and Narcissistic behavior of any kind in an on going basis is still damaging and needs to be addressed? And to the degree it is and to the extent of how bad it is.....I myself am no expert..and I have no real way of knowing or determining that myself but......I lived with it long enough to get a feeling which is hard to translate to anyone else? You don't need any expertise to have a feeling like that memory thing was talking about...and boy I got it with her mother.....like bells and whistles....BIG TIME!! I didn't use to understand what that feeling was saying but now I do? That feeling says....."Fuck you and the horse you rode in on!!! I don't have the time of day or anything to give to you because that....would be a gigantic waste of time on my account I choose not too?"
And with a full blown Narc.....that would NOT hurt there feelings? It might make them angry and I'm, sure it would? But hurt feelings are not in the cards for a person like that...so I don't have to worry or feel guilty for saying how I truly feel in that case?
J