Dealing with our own thinking & emotions....

Don't want to think of any.

Submitted by smd1409 on Wed, 07/05/2017 - 10:13

It was quite a nice realisation. I tried to think of one but found a wall blocking me from trying to, so I asked my wife out of interest as what she thought was the most difficult. She also said something similar, that she finds it hard to find something because her mind is stopping her from searching for one.

I tried further to try and define it exactly, but I sort of didn't care and didn't want to go further and bring up bad things about my wife and now I've forgotten what they are again. My wife also gave the same statement (minus the forgetfulness).

When I think about why we're like this, I think it's because I'm satisfied just seeing my wife trying. Even if she fails again and again, it's fine because I can see that she's trying to make things better and improving herself in order to help me. My wife after seeing me fail several times has also said the same exact thing, that I'm trying and it's all that she asks for. Everything else is just trusting each other in that the battle the other is facing is not as simple and easy as we may think it is.

I so respect the place you guys have come to....

Submitted by c ur self on Wed, 07/05/2017 - 17:43

It sounds like you guys are living in the real world, w/ a healthy connection....Trying...Giving effort...that is all any of us can hope for....Sometimes the surface stuff blinds us...(the differences, the fighting, etc..)..

But what I finally came to realize w/ my wife is....She is deathly offended by being a wife..(her vows and the call on her life)...She only wants to live one way...Independent, and controlling of her environment and the people in that circle....So when guilt or appearances is the only two reasons you seem to be trying..It's a false and shallow attempt your making...Failure is assured!....She needs to fall in love w/ her role...(a new mind, new thinking) then she will find pleasure and deep satisfaction, in what is so painful to her now....

Phobia's

Submitted by kellyj on Wed, 07/05/2017 - 19:19

C, I think you were the one who brought this up, and if it wasn't you then who ever it was, is accurately stated it. What I mentioned the other day about either: seeking pleasure or seeking "pleasurable things"....or........"avoiding discomfort and avoiding pain"....this really boils down to the primitive limbic brain in control of things. It is the "all" or "nothing", black and white reactions and thinking that makes this so disheartening. As long as the "lizard brain" is in control, there is absolutely nothing you can do, that will make any difference at all? If, and only if, a person is so rooted into this, there is simply no way to change it? And taking my wife now at face value and I listen very closely to her words.....she is not being pretentious or dishonest in how she feels about anything. What you see and hear....is what you get. There is not "middle ground" or "in-between" with her? As she's admitted even recently, she has "trouble with negotiation". That is an understatement on her part and not accurate at all. She has a complete inability to negotiate and compromise because her "lizard brain" is in control 24/7 and when the "lizard brain" is talking....I listen very closely and what it says is...."I don't want to.....and.....I don't care". Those are the words that come out of her mouth. Or on the other side...it's "I want this....this is what I want". There is no discussion between these two things. :"I want"......and......."I don't want and I don't care" This is non-negotiable doing so, will trigger her into a tailspin and she will blow a gasket if you try.

And since she has basically said she is leaving ( now for sure as it appears ...this time unlike all the other times she's threatened ) "caring" one way or the other...is really kind of moot at this point. There is no connection and so now it's coming down to simply staking out my territory and staying on my side of the line. What was most interesting to actually observe and I really am now seeing this more clearly than before.....there is one thing that you cannot do with her...and that is to say...."you know, when you do this it really hurts me" Those words and those words ONLY....will cause a reaction and cause such a dramatic instantaneous change in her....it is almost scaring to witness and now I am seeing this with eyes wide open. I said to her just two days ago, that she needs to respect only a couple of things and one of them was something that has really hurt me deeply and I told her that straight up. WOW!!! OMG!!! It was like flipping a switch and watching this crazy person jump out at you an attack you as if you just pulled a gun on her and threatened to kill her. Just those words and nothing else....will elicite that kind of response and right to the point....."You know, when you do this ( thing ) it really hurts me" Just those words, and nothing else.

A "Phobia" is said: an extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something.

"he had a phobia about being under water"

complex, neurosis; hang-up "fear of spiders is just one of his many phobias"

synonyms:fear, irrational fear, obsessive fear, dread, horror, terror, hatred, loathing, detestation, aversion, antipathy, revulsion;

Antipathy definition: a deep-seated feeling of dislike; aversion.

synonyms:hostility, antagonism, animosity, aversion, animus, enmity, dislike, distaste, hatred, hate, abhorrence, loathing

To answer your question simply and straight up? I'm tired of being a spider and having to live with my wife's .... irrational fear, dread, horror, terror, hatred, loathing, detestation, aversion, antipathy, revulsion, deep-seated feeling of dislike, hostility, antagonism, animosity, animus, distaste, hatred, hate, abhorrence, loathing of me. Simply for saying "You know, when you do this ( thing ) it really hurts me".

I'm a spider.....that's the thing I can't live with. And simply put, why would I do that to her and make her live with a spider? That's exactly what it is...and how I'm treated if I accidently say something even close to those words. That's all it takes, for her to see me a spider which I'd rather put a gun to my own head and pull the trigger, than to live that way or do that to someone and make them go through that with me? On both sides of the coin? Every single one of those words....comes through to me loud and clear even if she doesn't say them....I can feel them every day. She doesn't have to say them for me to feel them and be on the receiving end of it. There is no way, you can miss it or not interpret this correctly. It is that obvious, at face value not a close approximation in how it feels for me? Like I said, I'd rather put a gun to my head and pull the trigger...than to be a spider in my own home and not be allowed to say what she does, that hurts me? Well, she doesn't have to say it...it comes through "loud and clear" and "I don't want to....I don't care" are the only words I need to know? Combine those words...with all those other words....and that is what disrupts the peace and calm and living a peaceful life right there since "I am a spider"....in those moments and those moments happen all the time.

J

My ex once told me that he

Submitted by PoisonIvy on Wed, 07/05/2017 - 20:28

My ex once told me that he had discussed with a therapist that his reaction to me sometimes was like that of a rabbit curling into a ball in fear. This bothered me on two levels: I don't think I'm fearsome; and if I am, it's deeply humiliating and embarrassing. I told him that I didn't want him to have to live with someone of whom he was frightened.

J every difference gets escalated when there is no attachment...

Submitted by c ur self on Thu, 07/06/2017 - 00:03

When there is no healthy attachment...It makes it almost impossible to work through issues....Things like love, devotion, commitment, & trust to name a few are not in full force in relationships lacking attachment...So we don't have those deep rooted truths that are joining us...It's like the man on the flying trapeze w/ no safety net to catch him if he falls...That's what happens when we find ourselves in those hard places of disagreement.....Communication Stops... Fear of the unknown takes over and since there isn't a net...It's fight or fight..

For me it's the inconsistency

Submitted by dvance on Thu, 07/06/2017 - 00:17

For me it's the inconsistency that I experience in my spouse. Over 22 years of marriage, some days he is ON and 100% present, other days--totally not really here. He can be ON for several weeks and then for no reason I can discern, CLICK--out to lunch again. Or it can cycle in the course of a day. He and I rarely have the same recollection of an event or a conversation--his ability to retain information is inconsistent too. Some days he is easy going, some days he is super touchy and moody. I never know what I am going to get. That is really hard and I must have a really steep learning curve because I can never read the signs (if there are any). You would think after all these years I would be better at guessing how he is on any given day, but 9 times out of 10 I guess wrong. For example, if i try to humor him out of a bad mood, he is likely to take it wrong, like I am being patronizing. Or if he is being inappropriate and I call him on it, he is likely to tell me he is an adult and he can do whatever he wants, versus that time two weeks ago where he asked me to point out when he is acting weirdly, but today does not recall that.

So inconsistency is the hardest thing for me to work around and get used to. Clearly I am not used to it and have not figured out how to work around it or I wouldn't be so unhappy now!!

Self Awareness

Submitted by vabeachgal on Thu, 07/06/2017 - 09:01

I struggled with this question. Undoubtedly, it's the denial but with the denial comes a lack of empathy and awareness. I'm not talking about sympathy. My H isn't skilled at walking in someone else's shoes. It's a high level executive function. As a result, we have groundhog day over and over again. When I read through the forum, most people with ADHD who decided and chose to do something about it do it because they come to a realization and self awareness. It seems to me that this bold of lightning is necessary to move ahead and tackle the ADHD. I think many on this board are waiting for that AH HA moment from their partners.

The lack of awareness really hurts us. Without acceptance and action on BOTH sides we are in this ridiculous ground hog day scenario where it is the same issue over and over again. The repetition uses up so much mental, emotional and even physical energy. It's hard to move forward. It's hard to grow as a person or as a couple as a result. And, it does create a pins and needles environment if you never know what's coming next in terms of actions or moods or anything.

What challenges me most within the relationship mentally and emotionally is the lost of trust and faith. It pains me that the person who promised to love and cherish me can't? Won't? And I've struggled mightily with the thought that I can do SOMETHING to break through and help him to that realization.

Interesting VA........I Actually Came Here Today

Submitted by kellyj on Thu, 07/06/2017 - 14:42

with this analogy in mind and of course we're talking about the movie "Ground Hog Day" which is exactly what I was thinking about. The idea or concept for the movie was a simple premise....."what IF..........." and then they built an entire story around it? But the main charactor in the story is Bill Murray who is just a self serving very cynical man who has really doesn't have a lot of redeeming value as a person....other than he's very good at doing his job as a weather man at a local news station. The premise is a simple concept in that the "what if....." is a time conundrum that has everything to do with the cause and effect and that "time worm hole" effect where his "consciousness" continues to move forward in time, but everyone else goes back and repeats itself with no memory of the previous day? And of course, in this "fictitiously" story....it's the exact same day which means everyone else goes back in time....while Bill Murray continues to move forward in his own awareness?   In this scenario....Bill Murray is completely aware of himself and time....and everyone else is not...simply put. Everyone else in the entire movie....is living the same day over and over as if it was the first time they ever experienced it with no awareness of the fact they ( in the movie of course ) they are "stuck" in a time loop, and they do not realize this of course. Each time the hands on the clock, go around and hit the magic time again....the day resets itself, yet time continues forward. The digital clock at his beside when it hits reset, automatically starts playing "Sonny and Cher" again, which is the signal the same day is happening again just like it did yesterday for Bill Murray yet Bill Murray is the only one who is not "stuck in the time loop" and this is what they built the entire story around?

Okay, that part is in itself, is impossible which everyone understands including Bill Murray yet, there he is? Now what? Well, now what is right...and we watch what "one man" does with that and how that affects him throughout the movie and he relives everyday as if it's the same as yesterday? But in effect, we also watch what everyone esle does in this "what if scenario" which is just as important in this story since without "everyone else in it"....there would be no story here? This is the human condition or the "Humanity" aspect of the story which everyone can understand based on the premise or the impossible "what if?" With no memory of yesterday, then there can be no learning right? If you had no memory of yesterday....then your whole life would end on the day your memory stopped and that is all you would ever know? You would live out your life at that point....as if everything that happened beyond that point would be the same as if you were in a comma ...but an awake and fully functioning "comma" but with no awareness of time anymore? Time and memory and a "timeline" means you have "history" and without history....you are operating very much like an Alziemers patient but distinctly different in that case?

So if you picture the people in Ground Hog day, they are all "stuck" in a time loop or "time continuum loop" that just cycles around a 24 hour time period and repeats itself again? A person with Alziemers actually starts reversing and going backwards in time since they start to lose their memory and chucks of their "life" or "holes" that they can't recall? This was the facintating thing I discovered with my own mother and watching her go through this myself? I have never heard of anyone say this before which would make sense since I or my sisters or father, could be the only ones to know what we ( or I ) know? That is, my memory of my time and life spent with my mother and all that goes with it? The doctors and care attnedents know they are losing their memory, but they have no recollection or memory of that person in front of them, to know exactly what "time frame" that person is in exactly....yet, I did...since I finally figure this out from "who my mother thought I was" or....."how old she thought I was" which was clear to me in the context of what she would say to me and I would test her and ask questions to validate what I thought? And sure enough, as she would confirm to me either "how old she thought I was"....or then later......when she thought I was someone else instead of me, I realized, she was going backwards in time and when she finally lost her memory on the timeline before I was born, I didn't exist anymore, since I was not born yet? And it happened in chronological time just as I said with my mom? That's how I could tell, since I could remember everything she was saying ( with a lot of questions to nail her down ) and found this to be really accurate with her and how she lost her memory? It did jump around a bit....but in context over time...the timeline was reversing itself in a steady decline or going backward in time? And when she finally went all the way back in time to an infant with no memory at all, she was gone....yet still sitting there since there was no memory at all? Not in conscious memory or working memory that is? And not so ironically, when she reached that stage on the time line, the care givers had to spoon feed her, just like an infant. No difference what so ever, yet she was 89 years old?

And the thing is, I really know very little about Alziemers aside from asking some confirming questions to the doctors and the nursing staff to verify what I was observing..and for the most part they confirmed everything I said..,except for the going backwards in time and how that really works? I really don't know how it works, but I do know what I experienced and what I just said so just from observation alone, this is what it looked like and seemed like to me as I look back and recount the timeline of my mothers Alziemers experience and what I experienced along with her at the time and each subsequent time I would see her in my own memory and history with her during the last part of her life spanning almost 16 years or more? I might say that IS right but maybe that was just my mother and every other Alzeimers pateint is different there too? What was interesting however, is how both my sisters completely missed this, and I was the one who had to tell them this, which at least the one sister who saw her most, seemed to realize this and agree with me after the fact BUT....at the time, she missed the fact, that since I realized this and went "Ah HA!!!".......I was aware of it, while it was happening? And with that awareness....much of what my sisters thought was mindless gibberish coming from my mom, was actually only ( part gibberish LOL ) much of what she was saying made perfect sense "in context" to the time "she was in". Meaning.....not "real time" or "continuous time"...that everyone else ( including me ) was in....but the "time frame" that she was living in....inside her head which could only remember so much at any given time. And that line, kept going back...so the longer time went on....the farther back she went in reverse? Talk about a time conundrum!! whew!! But hugest aspect of this and why my sisters were not "with my mom" like I was ...has to do with my sisters denial of the problem and them "wanting her to be with them" at this time ( in real time )....and not going back in time "with her" like I was doing? That's really all it was, but you have to aware of this....or esle you would simply miss it which both my sisters did which was highly annoying to me at times and very frustrating to boot.

The worst expereince I had with my family during this time, was what I called "Christmas With the Dead"....which was a really painful experience for me at the time. Painful, not in how I felt "for my mother" or for my mothers sake...she was gone...out of there...her momeory was no longer there and she was a Zombie and a vegitable ( really turly ) and this is what the doctors and nurses were confirming to me too? And this has everything to do with empathy, but empathy is a relative thing? Here's a case where, the people who lacked the most empathy, were not the ones in the room with the major degenerative brain disease but, were the one ( and one in particular ) person with undiagnosed ADHD ...but who also had spent no time with my mother since she lived in a different state and was only around during the holidays each year? But seemingly, she could not wrap her head around the entire concept, that my mothers memory was gone and what that meant exactly? She kept thinking that my mother recognized her and knew who she was and I can tell you straight up, my mother could not recognize one person from another after 15 minutes went by? She did the same thing to everyone every time anyone walked in the room? She would always smile and nod her head and go "yes, that's right". LOL So no mater what you said, or what anyone did or for that matter....who they were.....if you asked her a question and she was looking at you....you would always get a smile and a nod of her head and then sometimes she's say "yes, that's right". TO EVERYONE!!! lol It didn't matter who you were which one could take anyway you want and make that anything, the point, it the only response she had for anything? It wasn't a real answer, it was just a response or reaction as she could perceive a "question only"....the if she did.....that was always the same response you got to ANY QUESTION!!! lol   The thing my sister could not understand or get?

And during that one time painful experience I experienced and "Christmas With the Dead"....my mom was sitting on the couch next to me and she was nodding off and was trying to sleep, and my sisters were holding "Christmas" with the 4 of us together and my one sister had boght some gifts for my mome ( some clothing and a hat ) and kept trying to put them on my mom, ( especially the hat and was acting as if, my mother was aware of this and somehow knew what was going on? And my sister kept putting this damn hat on her like she was a dress up doll, and my mom would reach up and throw it to the ground or sweep it off her head? Like WTF???? Clearly, my mom was trying to nap or dose and my sisters were having a "Christmas Tea Party " and using my mother as a blow up doll to dress up with the new clothes they bought for her? As IF....she had any concept of idea of what was going on? As IF.....but that was not the case? It was beyond redicualous, and it really started pissing me off. That was the painful part for me, since I "got it" and I knew exactly what was going on with my mom. There may have been disjointed bits of memory where she might string together a few words that made sense....but God Damn it....CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT CONTEXT, CONTEXT!!!!    My sisters were having a contextual major malfunction in context with was the most painful thing of all? ( for me ) I was the only one in the room ( as usual with our family ) who was having a problem but this problem it seems, was everyone else in the room not me at the time? RELATIONSHIPS..........RELATE.........TO CONTEXT AND ARE.........RELATIVE!!    RELATIONSHIP,   RELATIVE, RELATE.......DO YOU GET IT? As I wished I could say that, but that would not make a difference? If someone cannot see the relationship and put that into context....then they don;t get it, or understand it, since they cannot see the relationship and how the relationship lives on a dynamic curve at all times. A relationship means.....two objects or people....in relationship to one another? And if both objects are moving....then in time as the constant......it does not exist on a straight line but on a curved one.....like a learning curve for example? The same when you compound interest or use an actuarial table to figure out costs and earings? They all exist on a curve...and do not exist in a straight line.

And the same is true for GPS to work. You have to have 3 points or a traingle....or esle it won;t work to know a location or a point in space or on a map to locate "where you are?" 2 points....and it won't work and you can't know where you are? This drives me crazy at times with some people and mainly women? Some men too, but mainly women when it comes time to get directions or give directions to anywhere....women tend to be specially challenged at times and that just seems to be more common a well as not being very mechanically inclined as a rule ...but what I'm saying has more to do with "aptitude" not the inability to learn? Women who are not "inclined" or have an aptitude with cartography...can still learn to navigate and do it as well as men do which appears to be more common or a tendency as a general rule? And I know this, from years of working with men and woman in my work to know, that men seem to pick this up easier than most women...and some women are absolutely challenged in this area to the point of exasperation for me sometimes? My wife being one of those people along with my older sister who is directionally challenged beyond belief sometimes? But, I know this, and I am aware of this, so I also know that I have to do things differently with them, compared to say my motorcycle riding buddy...who we would complete separate and be miles apart for hours and never lost track or got lost once and being on the road together in the middle of no where with no reference points or buildings or signs or any kind? There is not such thing as "out of sight, out of mind" in that case, I had a map, and I knew where I was...and I knew he was ahead of me...and we had a general understanding made ahead of time as to approximately where we would be? That was enough,....no worries....no problems. If that was my wife......there would be a problem if we were 1 mile from our house and we got separated while driving 2 cars!! LOL

BUT. The same holds true for women too and this is what I've had to work and work and try and understand something there is just way for me to understand exactly? Women, in a general respect to...seem to have this "women intuition" thing...that is like this "unspoken talent" to know things or understand things in a way that is very difficult for me to understand sometimes? What I've finally arrived at and thinking what this is? It's like "the first thing that comes to mind"...and for women many times, it;s different than it is for men? Sometimes, it's so far down the list of things....that men lists stop....before it gets down that list far enough? Once you realize this, I've found to keep scrolling down and eventually you;ll fix it! LOL If it;s not on the list at all, then that is a problem? And that is what the problem is....when it's not on the "list" of thought you have in your head? It doesn't matter if you're staring and pointing right at it....if it doesn;t exist on the list or "recognized things"...then that :thing" will just be a "thing"...that does not relate of is relationship with anything else and it will have "no context" what so ever to anything?
So what I get now from this can work both ways. If woman assume, that men ( just to start with ) have this same kind of "inutive power" as they do, then that is their fist and last mistake right there? If you are trying to "give" or "attribute" you talents and gifts to someone else and assuming "wrongly" that they have them, then that is an error in assumption right there and you are off on the wrong foot or to a bad start in trying to relate anything with a man? And the same works the other way too, but you never know who has learned, who has the aptitude and who "gets it" or not? This is just part of being human and women and men have varying degrees of these things or not...and sometimes even reversed so there is no assumption you can make here in applying anything to yourself? At least, up to a point before you start to lose your ability to accurately access something and know what you're seeing? If two people are both moving at different rates and are at different locations on the learning curve.....just like with my mom.....age..had nothing to do with it? She was going backwards in time not forwards....so age was irrelevant in that case? Not relative...is irrelevant.

But going back to the Ground Hog day example with Bill Murray. What he learned and all the processes he went through to get there was really the most relevant thing to the story? He started out..right where he was...a cynical self serving ( kind of prick ) who was only in it for himself. And then he learned how to take advantage of his new found phenomenon and steal money, get women in bed and get anything he wanted with no consequences to him. But then that got old cause what good is it in just 24 hours. Then he got so depressed he tried to kill himself and he could do that so now what? And all along, he really wanted to get his co-worker in the sack, but even that didn't;t work since it was just a phony act that she caught on to eventually no matter how many times he tried? Finally, once he had just given up on everything, he found that the only thing that gave his little 24hr existance any purpose, was to use it to learn things and then use those things to do things for others in a meaningful way? When he exhausted all his "taking advantage of others skills"...it became boring and menotinous so he tried taking advantage of not taking advantage of people and helping them instead? This proved to be a much more fulfilling life if you only had 24hrs to live it in. And then, when he finally got so good at doing that and finally exhausted his time that he could squeeze that into enough, when the "girl" saw those qualities in him, she fell in love with him instead since he had already fallen in love with her but he only had 24hrs to make her do that with him? And that's when the cycle was broken in the story at least...which made for a great movie and a great story on top of it? Of course...an impossible scenario but a good case for cause and effect in that "what if scenario"

But at the same time, my mom Alziemers made the impossible possible since that is possible which everyone understands? The point being, only one person in that case was going backwards in time and not just remembering the past, but erasing the present and losing what was already there?

And the point you are making VA...is exactly it? You can't move forward with someone who keeps reliving the same day of the past and not moving forward with you? But, you can do what I did with my mom, and move back in time ( with her ) as my sisters failed to do? I became aware of "her place in time".....not mine? I went "back with her" to her "place in time".....I did not expect her....to be "in real time" with me? See the problem? My mother...."could not move forward in fact, she was moving backwards?

And here's the deal there too. I never did get an exact diagnosis about the severity of my ADHD...but I kind of get from just the conversation with my T, that this is and wasn't his main concern even if it's there, it was and still is less than some other aspects which and all he's said is moderate or mild to moderate and I think now that's pretty accurate? Which even in that much, it's still a relative thing compared to someone else with ADHD, so I can't even use myself as a means to guage or measure someone by, who actually has ADHD since I am not at that level of experience training or knowledge to do so? To0 the point, I now realize more than ever, if I can't do that for someone who has ADHD...having ADHD myself, then in my thinking, there is NO WAY....someone who doesn;t have it, would even have that kind of ability which must be even more frustrating and disheartening for all of you?

This then, as I was trying to point out, makes empathy difficult if empathy truely is a realtive thing to each and every individual with a range lets say? What I realized when I was thinking about this, is one more one other possible means around that in order to understand or have any idea what is really going on?

ex·trap·o·late

extrapolating

extend the application of (a method or conclusion, especially one based on statistics) to an unknown situation by assuming that existing trends will continue or similar methods will be applicable.

"the results cannot be extrapolated to other patient groups"

estimate or conclude (something) by extrapolating.

"attempts to extrapolate likely human cancers from laboratory studies"

Mathematics

extend (a graph, curve, or range of values) by inferring unknown values from trends in the known data.

I think this is one of those things where it can be "the problem in itself"...and be "the solution to the problem" depending on how you are doing it? If you are doing it subconsciously outside of your awareness....then that is the "wrong or not so good way" since you have no ability to control of use it. With awareness of it however, you can use this to your advantage which becomes just another skill to learn in your cognitive processing ability? That is a leaned skill, that would help with this tremendously I think? But I keep coming back to "Chritsmas With the Dead"....and am thinking about that scenario more and more? You had 4 people in the room at the same time, and all of them as it appeared were working off of different assumptions, different understandings as well as some real denial going on.....yet the easiest and more obvious and actually most consistent person in the room.....was the one with degenerative brain damage or memory loss.......and me wondering how did that work? I'm still thinking about his in relationship to context, time, learning, memory and each persons awareness of what was happening all at the same time? I dunno, but I think this is all relevant as a way of getting insight or perspective at the very least.

J

What You Believe Is Irrelevant

Submitted by kellyj on Thu, 07/06/2017 - 16:31

In humorous way, I was reminded of one of my all time favorite scene ( and one of the funniest moments ) in the movie Ghost Busters ( thinking of Bill Murray). This scene somewhat represents a good look at what it was like speaking to my mother at time when I was trying to understand what she was saying and then, finally caught on to what I said, and it seemed to make a lot more sense after that once I understood?

And in the same way, once you know the whole story behind in the movie Ghost Busters.....you can understand the context from which Rick Moranis is speaking. He is very convincing, and it is one of my favorite scenes ( out of all comedy movies which is what popped into my head ) It very much reminded me of one of the conversations I had with my mom at times. Not to make fun, but in a loving way. ( connection is key....once again ) And of course, this is not representative of anything remotely related to ADHD but it gives you an idea, just how far off ones perceptions can be from another. The point is.....Rick Maranis is not...just making this up since he has an awareness outside of the realms of anything anyone else understands. More to the point of bleieiving or just dissmissing things as irrelevant and really hearing and listening to what the other person is saying and getting the context or idea from the things they say even if you don't understand it completely which clealy, this scene shows very well indeed.
https://youtu.be/xSp5QwKRwqM

Now this is the reality of the thing... vabeachgal......

Submitted by c ur self on Thu, 07/06/2017 - 20:46

Your little post about the reality of what it's like (unable to put themselves in other shoes, lack of awareness, partner living their whole life waiting for a an AH AH moment, the complete inability to attach with us, no ability to move forward as a couple) Yep, you said it just perfect!....This is exactly the effects on our marriage also....

I told my W yesterday, that if she is going to continue to live like she is single w/ no respect for her responsibilities as a wife...That I want her to move out....She knows I meant it....See, the thing is, after nine year, It's just a pattern....She abandon's her responsibilities, (refuses to even accept her role in the home, and in my life) doesn't concern herself w/ my thoughts about anything...(Disrespectful single mind-set) Then when I get enough of the disrespect and abandonment....I start pointing it out...She of course meets my point, with denial, or dodges the conversation, because of my tone:), or, she has something important that she must do:)....But after a day or two of reflection...(She usually never comes and admits her behavior),...But, she will make some effort to adjust her behavior at times...That may last a week, it may last a month...But, the next time she gets an opportunity and few bucks she is out of here...And she just informs me on the fly most of the time...LOL...No thought about anything but her selfish desires.....

But what I want to point out here is this.....She is only happy, content and accepting of life, when she is living w/out responsibility (frivolity)....When she is doing fun things, playing w/ grand children, shopping, running behind adult children trying to stay in their business, and control them. Talks insistently about wanting to go to Europe, wanting, wanting, wanting....Any opportunity to get away from her responsibilities at home....(Nothing wrong w/ most of what she enjoys, I love those things also)

At home she is contented to some degree if she is controlling the environment....TV must be on what she wants to watch or she goes to another room....She must have the remote to control.....If I'm doing the cooking, cleaning and serving she is fine...But anything to do w/ her having to produce energy....Work, Sex...She become a miserable complaining victim.....So what is the alternative? There isn't one...I love her and want her to live out her last days happy, content, and not being a sad victim.......I also want to live out my days in peace....I am a very upbeat (thankful) person most of the time, very blessed, good cook, not offended about daily chores (thank goodness) lol......I don't need her!.Not if she hates the responsibilities of her wedding vows, and what God himself ordained.....Sex? I'm 60:)...I'll make it.....Besides when a person feels like their responsibilities in the marriage, is them doing you a favor, and you have to deal w/ the victim mind and the guilt driven sex....It's not worth it.....Don't get me wrong...I very much enjoy love making.. But it's not what it should be when the other person doesn't have at least a kind expression, and takes ownership of their role in it....

See, if she is going to get old hating her role as a wife...It's never going to change...No Ah Ha coming...And every time I express to her about her neglect, she is just going to be a miserable victim....Then why do I keep subjecting myself to this....I'm the one in denial...I'm the one who keeps the pattern going...

The counselor told my wife 5 years ago "to shit or get off the pot"....I'm not mad, I love her more today, than I ever have...But my love for her is a mute point to what is going on in her heart and mind....

When all of a sudden she has to manage every aspect of life again....She may have a heart and mind change.....

Anyway;)... thank you Vabeachgal....And every one else that responded...I think we learn a lot about ourselves and how to mange difficult marital situations from each other....At least it is very comforting to me to know that others can understand what I'm dealing with....

C......This is Exactly It

Submitted by kellyj on Thu, 07/06/2017 - 22:37

Here I am, with ADHD and I just don't understand this any better than you? I have "Ah Ha moments all the time. Quite regularly in fact and I am always keeping my eye peeled for how I can improve? I don't understand this and yes, it's a lot of effort and hard work but, I don't have an "adversarial relationship" with work which is exactly what I told my wife years ago and I noticed this very early on? Work....is something :"bad"....to "get over"....that you :"hate" and can't wait until it;'s done. It's that same thing as if you are in school....just watching the clock and waiting until you can bolt out of the class room and on to something "fun". Or anything, as long as it's "not hard", "not taxing", "not difficult" and it's easy and you don't have to break a sweat? I have never seen my wife break a sweat physically which is just beyond me from where I come from? What the Hell is that, if it;s not lazy? What she told me just recently and again, I'm kind of taken back by this? She said that "love is doing things for the other person" but as she was saying this, what she means is "having someone do something for me." That's exactly what she means by "Love is, doing things for people". Well,.who's this "we" again? I do for you, and you get the reward or pay off? Now it's your turn? "Oh....I'm tired now."

But, her standard line and the first one she always says is "I've worked all day. I just worked 8 hours and now I it's my time or ( what ever )" As I'm sitting there thinking to myself...."yeah, so what? You want a brownie pin?" As if, working 8 hours is a huge issue? I've got to say, for the last 10 years before I quit, the store where I worked, had to come make me stop working because they were all getting ready to leave and I was always the last one to get my stuff put away? While the store staff would do all their duties and many times get done early....they'd be standing around for the last 20 minutes and just chomping at the bit to bolt out of there? ( Salespeople are like this as I have found ) Salespeople in general, do a lot of standing and talking and not all that much "selling". If there are non stop customers and the store is really busy, but normally on a day to day basis....there is Huge gaps of time, when they are doing other things ( that isn't selling ). I sold for a year and 1/2 so I know this first hand. "Selling" is the act of actually working with the customers. Standing around and waiting in between, is resting and not selling? No way, you are going to try and argue that one with me? What I did, and what I did non-stop for 35 years, was the equivalent, of a surgeon, doing painstaking precise and precision work....non stop for 8 or more hours? I had some down time, but down time meant...sharpening tools, ordering parts or doing something related in the time in between. Driving in a car, from one "client" to another "client"...as my wife does within her job, is driving in a car. Part of her day, is driving in a car...not "working doing her job" but that is necessary....but that is also "rest time". For me it is, since I like to drive and I like to drive around and listen to music. It's time filling yes, but it's not hard work unless you get paid to "drive a car" for you job? I've also seen her work very hard at things and she is very diligent and conscientious....but she it does take her a lot longer to do things than I do, so it that shows me only that she is more methodical and slow to be careful not to make mistakes which she doesn't make mistakes very often so she works more slowly in order not to?

But when she comes home, she feels it's "her turn" ...so "her turn" means to her....."someone working for me now?" Someone serving my needs and doing things "for me" ...since "I work so hard for 8 hours" and work and life just sucks for that entire 8 hours, just like a kid and the schoo bell rings. Anything she has to do at home, is now already on "over time"? This is just crazy logic in my mind? Work is work...and after work....the responsibilities don;t just end and now it's my turn for some one to work "for me?"

I've got to say this and I can't not see this....but the entire 'traditional ...male...female....."courtship thing" is really where this starts? The entire "mating process" and the traditional "type" expectation is....."Guy ask girl out. Girl responds or not. Yes...or...."I'm busy Saturday night, I've got to wash my hair"...which means no....you've just been rejected. Okay, there you go. Guy ask girl. Guy takes girl out to movie and pays for girl. Guy buy flowers and gifts to impress girl. Basically....the "Peacock" speads his tail feathers and dances around and entertains the female...and the female "picks" which of the several "Peacocks" who have the nicest looking feathers and can build the best nest for her to lay her eggs in? Basically, that has been the tradition I think, for a very very long time? Of course, in our modern age of equality to a point, there are many variations of this and many times this does not fit the pattern yet......if you are older, and you were raised in that kind of "tradition"...then there are these conpletely "fabricated.....somewhat arbitrary rituals....that get tied into your expectations? The "Prince"...on the "white horse" syndrome....which is basically a fairy tale? There is "NO Prince" and there is definitely no "Princess Diana" except for ONE in a Billion people.....and she would never pick "you or I" to begin with? Any woman who thinks she is a Princess....is living in a dream world and not in reality? Men and women both need the same things to a certain degree even if they come in different forms? The bottom line however is.....fair is fair only in the "exchange"....not in the amount or "how much" but within each persons means? If I gave you $1000 dollars as a gift....that would be a very big deal for me? If Prince ( What his name in Britain) give you $1000 dollars....then that would be like possibly $1 dollars in comparison to what he "has to give" which is directly to the point? If you are all about...being "served"...or to have "money spent on you" to show you what you are worth....this is like the old "dowry system" where the father had to pay the man, to take this "money burden" off my hands since of course, "women don't make any money" and men go to :"work". In this day and age where most jobs are "NOT" ...farm work in the fields, manual labor and "physically demanding work" ( like in the times when this was possibly more relevant.......then most jobs these days or better the majority of jobs these days can be easily "physically done" by either a man or a woman since the physical demands are not putting any more demands on a woman than a man in that way? And, if they are more physically demanding ( even comparing house work, and manual labor that way ) then that person is going to get more physcially tired sooner, than say someone who sits at a desk for a job? That counts...as "energy....more physically taxing....and more effort or "put out"...since you only have a limited amount of "physical energy" available on any given day". It you are not taking your body and pushing it to it's physical limits ( all the way to the breaking point like I did every day in swimming ) then you are "giving your all"...which as we found out the hard way....."not giving your all...and not gving everything you got"....go you "no where" which is exactly what came out of it in a 1 to 1 relationship? The more you gave....the more you got out of it?

So...WTF is up with not understanding that? Work is work.....relationship is relationship.....kids are kids ( time spent with them )....animals are animals ( pets )....;and each one needs attention...and each one is separate and you can't really compare on to the other very well, since they all have different requirements and different types of "work or giving into". If you are not pacing yourself, then that's one thing? If you got nothing after work and you need to rest, well that's fine....but if you are working and giving all you got...and you;ve got nothing left to give after you work......then how the fuck, can you say that....and not see you are not :"giving anything to anything or anyone else?" I mean, if this is your life, and you are giving all you got to work...then that is a legitimate thing, and if your partner is doing the same....then what the Hell is the problem? It not a "value judgement" or "who makes more money"...it's about "giving your all" and doing it everyday....whehter it's physica; or mental...as long as you are giving? True Love...as that article I posted suggests....is about "giving"....not "recieving".....but that :"traditional courting ritual" has already got that all messed up? That traditional "courting ritual" thing....has got it where...the "man gives first"....and then the "woman gives or doesn't give" ...and she decides if she will, or she won't...and she picks or chooses....the guy is the "beggar at the door"

Now, before I get flamed to death, because I feel that coming if I do not continue on here and say only this. This is the "premise" or the "seeds" of the relationship? The "seeds" that grow the dynamic...which is where the dynamic begins? I lived in the traditional home growing up, and I saw how hare my mom worked and she worked from sun up to sun down and was first to work...and last to quit at the end of the day. That is the traditional relationship....but, my father worked very hard too. To the point, that it was more important than anything else? But within the two roles and the two people playing their parts.....no one, was a slacker in our house...and no one didn't "give their all". My dad was an asshole though, and made put my moms work...as :lesser than his" since she didn't make any money...and the :money job or work"....had more value than...the non-money job? And that is a pile of BS right there. The energy or what my mother ....'had to give"...she did it without complaining, and my dad didn't complain either about having to work? Neither one complained about having to work? And my sisters didn't complain about having to work. And I don;t complain, about having to work? Work is work....work is hard. If it wasn;t hard, then it would be work? It's not about how hard it is as I see this problem....it's about...having to work....at all, and giving as little as you can get away with...instead of "giving your all". Giving...only what "you have to"....and nothing more? That's a bunch of fucking bullshit on a stick right there. IMHO

In a general, kind of attitude way....this is pervasive and it really shows. Hating work, is like...duh? Who likes it or wants to work? Actually, :"liking it...and even enjoying it....is really the key thing here? I actually like and enjoy my work....but it still makes me tired and it;s still hard? Hard.....and pain.....is not...."bad ...and automatically means"....I hate it and I don;'t like it because it :"hurts" Go climb a 12,000 foot glaciered peak...and talk to me about pain? You haven't lived...until you are at a place where you can only take 10 steps....before you have to sit and catch your breath and let your legs stop burning? LOL Honestly.....at about 12,000 feet with so little oxygen....ten steps up a steep stair case...is aout as much as you got to give. And you do that for hours....every 10 steps....is all you got to give until you have to rest....just to take 10 more steps. And that goes on for hours, util you reach the top. It is...one of the hardest things I'ver ever done, and you are in pain the entire time up to the top especially at the end, when you are the most worn out and tired...and now there is even less oxygen than before. It just keeps getting worse the closer you get to the top and it doesn't;t get better...until you stop? 10 steps at a time....is all you got to give. That is what I call...work since you give your all...and that is all you got to give? Anything less, is "less than...all you got" If you aren't falling over in exhaustion....every single day, then you aren't giving all you got...which means....you got some left in you it's as simple as that?

And I am not implying, that you have to work this way at all....all I'm saying is.....when you are talking about giving...and you aren't giving all you got...until you reach that point, and you are complaining on top of it....then that's just weak and lazy then....if the first sign of pain....means it's "quitting time"? Mental or physical...it's all the same to me? But if you got nothing left to give your partner.....then in my mind....beggars can't be choosers.....if you aren't giving all you got....then you better shut the fuck up and quit your complaining? It doesn't matter how mucy you gave to someone else.....if you aren't giving to your partner....then you are not Loving them at all? What good is it....to your wife or partner in life.....if everything you got...is going somewhere else? If they ain't getting....then they ain't getting? It's not about "who gets more of what"...it about giving all you got what ever it is? Not about....serving or getting served.....wrong concept in my mind which is why that doesn't work? Giving all you got....is not about serving anyone....it's about Loving yourself enough, and respecting yourself enough...to pay into the kitty....because what ever you pay in...will come back in equal amounts. You got to give before you get.....and it works both ways. If it's not that....then there's a problem somewhere in my mind? What you got.....not.....what you don't got. That;s the key right there. If the person who is complaining because they aren't happy with what you got.......or want "more" than you got.....or something "different" than what you got...then that's their problem...not yours. Beggars can't be chooser.....that's the way it works in life. It's just the way it is...and there is no two ways around that one?

J

Husband is Happy

Submitted by vabeachgal on Fri, 07/07/2017 - 08:19

Thank you. This forum always surprises me with fresh insight (even though I use it primarily to vent). It's easier to see patterns when they are being described by someone else.

I am in denial also. I never flipped the script and realized that I was also in denial.

My H survived before he met me and he will survive without me.

He is happy when he goes to work and doesn't have any commitments besides things he really wants to do. In all fairness, he likes to work on the house and remodel (and mostly completes projects) so it isn't all bad. He likes to put in 110% at work and get the rush of being everyone's hero and favorite. He is happy to come home, drink beer and veg in front of the tv with an occasional night out with friends. He's happy with that and that is how he has lived his life aside from the short period of hyperfocus on me.

That's what he did before he met me and that is his comfort level. Looking back, with more information, it was clear that he had always gone from one mess to another, but it was not immediately evident because I met him after his clean up period. But... he was happy and perfectly okay with it. I'm the one messing with his preferred way of doing things.

He doesn't care or pay attention to finances, health and many other things and he's always been okay with it. I'm the one who is not okay with it. Before we were married, we knew our income and debt and credit scores. He had a small glitch on his credit but nothing that shook my confidence. He didn't claim much debt. However, he also did not disclose that he had just consolidated all of his debt with two 401k loans, hadn't filed taxes in 5 years and over purchased a car (very expensive BMW) that was relinquished and refinanced his condo twice to pay down debt. I found that out much later.

I didn't delve deep enough to determine REAL financial behavior or responsibility because on the surface it looked okay - not much debt, paid for car, didn't see any crazy spending habits (starting to think bi polar myself) But.... here's the thing... he was still happy go lucky with the eternal optimism of the ADHD mind. When not burdened by any expectations from me and allowed to maintain as he had been doing before AND ALSO being the recipient of much love, care and attention, he thrived. He was very happy those early years because he was still living life the way he wanted to and had plenty of extra attention. There was a disproportionate distribution of household chores and I had already noticed a reluctance to address it with me, but I was getting so much (hyperfocus) attention that it offset it for me and I thought it was workable.

Well, kids and house and future planning have a way of derailing relationships in which ADHD is included.... expectations and responsibilities - BAD.

I'm the one who feels unhappy and insecure with the way he handles things, not him. So, in the sense that anger management is often the responsibility of the non adhd spouse, this is also MY problem.

Now, saying that, doesn't mean I want to live with it or that it is a healthy and secure way to live, but it's my problem because he doesn't/never has had a problem with it. I diadn't realize that until I read your post. He doesn't want to change because he doesn't have a problem with it and I'm asking him to change something he is perfectly happy and content with. Sure, it causes him problems but he puts it out of his mind (not now) so fast it kind of doensn't bother him.

It's how he lives and it's all he really knows.

Forcing Change....vs... Forcing Accountability guys.....

Submitted by c ur self on Fri, 07/07/2017 - 18:41

To summarize my situation, and what we have been saying above.... J, and Vabeachgal...

I spent 8 of our 9 years of marriage, trying to convince her to change...Trying to point out w/ words ( some times gestures :) the dysfunction in her life, and the effects those behaviors had on me...By giving her examples of the reality of her living of life...Her actions, her behaviors....

Which all I got for my efforts was/is defensiveness, anger, arguments or abandonment...All that did was create patterns we discussed....Why?...Because she loved her life, (who wouldn't, she had a gravy train w/ me) except for the times I was complaining about it, me asking for her to step up and take ownership of her responsibility was her main source of pain. (expect for her personal struggles)

So who was the problem in the marriage in her eyes, and in her reality?....**I was**....I kept asking for something, she wasn't going to give, or maybe wasn't able because of her mind, and heart condition....Like Chevy was pointing out..."No desire or ability to do the work" to have a healthy relationship.

So in came acceptance; and more wisdom in not enabling or falling for her guilt trip attempts of manipulation...(Tough love)...What did I get? I got more peace for myself, which also gave her some relief from my pointing out so much, which helped us do a little better when she was available...available here means physically, emotionally and physiologically...But she had to step up because I refused to go on trips or do any thing that had a high probability for conflict....When she started hearing NO she would just have a little outburst of anger, throw out a cuss word or two....When your control rug gets pulled out from under your feet, it can be a shock to the system...

So now I've put something on the table that I have refused to do in the past, because of the way I feel in my heart; and because of what Jesus said about it....To get a divorce...

I just realized there was really no pressure on her to mange her life as a wife...(Do the work)..She could do anything she wanted, and still have the appearance to others that everything was fine....So I just told her I love you, I'm not mad at you, but, I'm not living w/ a wife who is happier away from me than she is with me...That's not how it works....if your joy is derived from living like you are single, and you are a offended victim about the responsibilities of being a wife...That's an easy fix.....

So it will be, what it's going to be.....

"I'm not living w/ a wife who

Submitted by PoisonIvy on Fri, 07/07/2017 - 18:45

"I'm not living w/ a wife who is happier away from me than she is with me...That's not how it works....if your joy is derived from living like you are single, and you are a offended victim about the responsibilities of being a wife...That's an easy fix....."

This describes how I felt before my divorce (substituting "husband" for "wife").

Clearer and clearer

Submitted by jennalemone on Sun, 07/09/2017 - 14:34

"I'm not living w/ a husband who is happier away from me than with me...That's not how it works....if your joy is derived from living like you are single, and you are a offended victim about the responsibilities of being a husband...That's an easy fix....."

C,. You have said it as clear as it can be said. This IS the crux of the matter in my situation too. H seems to be living like he is a single guy rather than on a team with a wife to stand hand in hand together.

Here are the words, for me: "You have told me and shown me that your independence is very important to you. Marriage is not independence. Marriage is trust and committment. An independent husband is not a husband. Your actions show me that you want to live your life independently. That attitude makes you seem to want to be a single guy. Acting like a single guy seems to give you pride that you have accomplished your independence from marriage while being married. I would like to give to you that which seems to be important to you. Your independence."

Lack of Self Discipline....

Submitted by c ur self on Sun, 07/09/2017 - 09:59

When there is a refusal to self discipline our lives...when we are offended by what a H or W is...It looks a whole lot like a desire for Independence...When in fact its just rebellion and non-acceptance of God's plan for a marriage....

There has been many broken hearted spouses who have watch their one true love walk away, because of this rebellion....It's very sad....

I would add to this that my

Submitted by PoisonIvy on Sun, 07/09/2017 - 10:00

I would add to this that my ex doesn't seem to be bothered by depending on other people (me, for taking care of the household and children and increasingly, being the source of income; his dad, for giving him a place to live and money and paying all the bills; various social work and health services providers), at least for certain things; but he did not want to be depended on. In his current situation, he is depended on by his parents, and I think that's probably only tolerable to him because of the symbiotic relationship: he thinks he would have no place to live if he weren't living with them and so he does what's necessary to get by so he can keep staying there.

Self awareness

Submitted by jennalemone on Sun, 07/09/2017 - 14:37

H said to me 20 years ago: "I am just trying to eke by until retirement." and "I'm glad I wasn't born a woman, you have to work so hard."

Then also he has said, "You should respect me."

There seems to be no awareness or guilt or pride, or deep feelings or emotions concerned with connections with others. Just H in a universe alone trying to put on a show behind a mask that he uses to fool himself.

I must admit, self awareness is not something I had been good at either, but I am learning the importance of the quotes, "Know Thyself" and "To Thine Own Self be True"......I used to think those phrases were self-centered and selfish and did not understand. Now I am trying to be more self aware and less naive/reactive in this marriage.

Jenna...Thus the title of this original thread...

Submitted by c ur self on Mon, 07/10/2017 - 12:46

If we are going to live w/ any kind of calm expressions of Love; for any length of time...I must not use her behavior's as an excuse for my own disrespect or retribution....This morning was typical...(sadly)...When I walked into the kitchen she said good morning, I walked over to her, and held her in a belly to belly intimate embrace for the longest...(told her about a dream I had, Kissed her, and then she moved on about her activities, and I turned and started grinding my coffee beans...Brought my coffee into the den for a little quiet time before I get busy....

She said three things over the next 15 minutes through the opening between the Kitchen and Den....Did you finish off MY trail mix?? This was an item she had picked up at Trader Joe's, that had been laying on the table for a week or more, She approached me w/ the bag in hand a few days ago and encouraged me to help her finish it off, as she thought it was Ok, but not her favorite....I told her I would, if I liked it...So it was down to a small amount, 1/4 cup or so, so I finished it yesterday....Today it was her favorite, when was planning on taking it for a snack...Imagine that :)....

Second comment was and accusation...."I see you have been eating MY mango!, because it's closed w/ a rubber band, and I didn't put a rubber band on it"...I buy a lot of bags of mango and blueberries for us (I am by far the primary grocery shopper) we like blue berries and mango mixed w/ veggies in our smoothies....This particular bag was purchased by her at Trader Joe's....I told her I hadn't had any mango since our last smoothie, (which has been a while due to all the fresh garden veggies) and I reminded her I saw her putting mango in her breakfast food just a day or two ago...Light comes on for her Oh!..., no apology, silence...Third thing...another accusatory statement "You may have killed one of my plants on the front porch!"...Hummingbird feeder hanging over it, that i placed there.....I am pretty sure, she is over watering it, or she has put it in a un-vented pot (or vent is clogged) so it can't drain, and she is drowning it....Any way I will check it when I leave for the gym in a bit, for some reason if it's the feeder, I will move it....

So as she was fixing to head out the door....I calmly pointed out what happened the one time I engaged her this morning, and what happened the three times she engaged me over the last 45 minutes of our morning....As she walked off, I heard her say stressfully say...OH, OK,,,,I apologize!....It took her about 5 more minutes to get organized to leave, but she made it a point to walk back by my recliner, lean over and kiss me hard w/ intent....(I get that from time to time, when I react in kindness and calmly)...I think it's her way of saying, "I've made my mind (as difficult as it for me) replay, and think about you said, and I appreciate the Grace".

Yep...there are just factual things that are going to happen, when stinginess, and selfishness is our locked in mind-set....I have to be wise enough to know, that her internal conflict doesn't have to be mine....

SEEING deeper into the matters of the Mind, Soul and Heart....Mental Illness is a fact, and when it is not Accepted, Recognized and Expected by those that are closest to it, YOU WILL suffer...That in it self is a true form of denial...(expecting different results, same circumstances) When I get in denial, (which I am in, way more times than not, when it comes to her, and even more than that, when it comes to myself) I start attributing a stricken mind pumping out unfiltered thoughts as matters of the heart....We all can have hard hearts, if we don't guard them...But, executive function inability, and intentional wickedness isn't the same thing in my opinion. Even though the behaviors do mirror one another most of the times....

Do you know what she was leaving to do today? Of course you don't :)...She was going to help a friend pick their garden, because the friend has some injuries that has made it difficult....Yesterday, she helped a co-worker from another Country learn about our town...

But if she can show discretion (think about her thinking and behaviors) at an acceptable level to engage co-workers, and church family and other friends....She needs to continue that discipline w/ family and her husband....We all do!....Or we need to leave!....If our behaviors can't be **kind and thoughtful**...Building up, instead of tearing down....We need to go, to stay only creates hells and destruction....It has nothing to do feeling of emotional Love or comfort.....

I think about this.....Jesus opened not his mouth, when he was being accused and tortured...He was bound!....Of course the Love of the Father willed it, because of his love for us..(For me)....When Sin and Chaos (accusations and judgments) was directed at him, when he wasn't bound,...The bible says he would remove himself from the crowds....

Father please lead me, your Son...Make me wise as a serpent, but harmless as dove...Keep my heart tender, make me thankful, and never a victim....Love bears all things.....

Meditation

Submitted by Drained on Fri, 07/07/2017 - 21:54

My husband has been told over and over he needs to learn to meditate to help with self awareness, the problem is, he hyper-focuses and then loses interest, there is never much consistency. Therefore, the same pattern of behaviors recur.

C, denial, double standard, lack of empathy

Submitted by dedelight4 on Thu, 07/06/2017 - 09:30

I respect your attitude and all the things you do to live with your wife in more of a place of peace. I'm glad that helps you. My husband would take that kind of attitude and run rough shod all over it, because he seems to see "being nice", being genuine, and working to live in peace as a kind of "weakness". He's never seen it as a strength, which is very, very sad. He's always lived in very strong denial of what he has, with a very deep double standard of living, with little to no empathy for me and our daughters. But, deep inside of him, he DOES KNOW there's been something "wrong" with him, which he's been too afraid to talk about, but he finally did talk about it a couple days ago. He did admit, he KNEW he had more than ADHD, and he's known it for some time.

I know he finally understands that I've "had it", and I've emotionally distanced myself from him. He didn't SEE that before, and always seemed to take that for granted. (I'd always BE there, nope, not now) And, all of a sudden now, he "wants" to have a good marriage, and get things "right", etc. And, "work" at having a marriage. A couple days ago, he said he knows he's been in the wrong, and he also knows he has more than ADHD "wrong" with him. But, he has NEVER said this to any counselor, or therapist he's been to, to try to get a proper diagnosis. Here I've been trying to "get past" the hurt and rejection all these years, from someone who's been mentally ill, and WON'T get help, even when he KNOWS something's been wrong with him. And, was perfectly fine with ME taking the blame for anything he didn't want to accept blame for. Yes, I am angry about this.

His mother was diagnosed bipolar by the same doctor that also diagnosed her with Alzheimer's disease. I never looked into what 'bipolar disorder" was until about a week ago. I was shocked and astounded by what I learned. Almost every item on the bipolar disorder list was something my husband does or has. Bipolar is a mood disorder, and used to be called "manic depression", years ago, and DH has had severe ups and downs since we've been married. It also covers sleep problems, (or lack of) which he's also had, quite severely. He had a very severe "depressive episode" just recently, that lasted for weeks, and he didn't know where it came from, but he was bothered by it, because he couldn't get happy or snap out of it on his own. He blamed it on a medication that he had tried, but stopped over 3 months earlier. It seems odd to me that a medication would "show up symptoms 3 months AFTER you stop taking it. He always blamed his "down times" on work, and problems at work. but, EVERYTHING in his life was because of work. HIs entire life was about work. Trouble is, he couldn't handle the social and personal INTERACTIONS that was taking place at work.

Anyway, when I told him he's always had these "down" episodes, he quickly dismissed it. (another symptoms of bipolar) I also found out that Bipolar disorder and ADHD can quite often go hand in hand. AND, people can have both disorders at once, and quite a few folks with ADHD do have both disorders together. When I started researching this, I only found this out when going on Bipolar sites, NOT on the ADHD web sites, which I thought was odd. It was also enlightening to find out what EXACTLY Bipolar was/wasn't, instead of what many of us "assume" it could be. I KNOW my husband has this, along with his ADHD, because it explains so many, many things that have still been left unexplained in who he is, and what is going on with him.

I have to admit, I am at my TOTAL END, with this whole thing, and I know he can feel this. I don't know whether he wants to stay married because he's afraid of being alone, or if he REALLY wants this, but it's REALLY HARD for me to accept him at face value, from all the lies he's already told, and all the past crazy making behavior, infidelity, and everything else. Being married to someone with a mental illness (including ADHD) is NOT easy for the other person...................AT ALL.

We still have a lot of chaos here in the house to "get through", including our finances, etc., before it's all straightened out, which I'm working on now, and it's staggering. I'm still looking for an ADHD therapist in this area, and it's HARD TO FIND HERE, without driving quite a distance. I've GOT to find someone.

Oh my goodness, Dede

Submitted by Chevron on Thu, 07/06/2017 - 10:30

What a tough situation. . You need to know what's professionals say is going to happen if he's bipolar and continues not to take meds.

Bi-polar or / and ADHD plus 'Something Else"

Submitted by kellyj on Thu, 07/06/2017 - 15:34

Chevorn.....my T mentioned this to ( us ) in his office and reportedly to me in private said, that Bi-polar is often misdiagnosed or confused with PD's ( personality disorders ) and I am wondering about this myself. This may be a cart before the horse kind of thing and one of these things comes first, and then others follow suit later so ...one becomes the other, and the other becomes something else? So, in that case....you'd have all 3 even if you were only diagnosed with one? Or you'd be diagnosed with one, but the "other one" that followed suit is over-looked so you really have both in that case? All I know is, my wife's mom was diagnosed with Bi-polar but no mention of ADHD existed? What I really think is true, is that my wife IS a fetal alcohol affected person and this is the most lifely thing that makes sense. I get, that there is "something wrong" or actually "impaired" in her abilities that goes beyond anything I recognize and further....her behavior and her brothers behavior both exibit similar traits or levels of cognitive "impairment". In other words.....a "what would be normal child"....is damaged in the womb by alcohol and I think this has a lot to do with my wife...even if not "severe". It's not an "inherited thing" ( but could be in part ) but like tobacco or alcohol....these are "introduced" into the picture?

My mother for example ( made that easier for me to determine of rule out ). She was a tea-totaler...and did not drink any alcohol what so ever not even wine or a beer or cocktail except on rare occasions. And she never smoked ever, so that was easy for me to rule out. My father smoked like a chimney but stopped when I was very young. So my mom, was exposed to second hand smoke, but not directly even when she was pregnant with myself or my sisters? My dad didn't smoke directly in our presence either for the most part since my mom was sensitive to smoke and did that for her most of all?

So, it's very difficult to start weeding things out and know exactly what is what here? The only person who could really do this accurately would be a doctor with some testing which my wife is simply not interested in or is ever going to do that? There is a strong "stigmatizing phobia" that appears in her family surrounding these things and a lot of superstition and a lot of "misinformation" that they hold strictly to and believe that I hear her say as well as seeing this in her family?

This is also what I see and what I saw with my mother, and she was very conflicted in this way due to her strict religious upbringing which in respect to anything along these lines......if there is a conflict between religion and science as a "beleif" alone....that that is caused by the "beleif" more than anything.....not something wrong or some disorder per se? This is where "religion" can go horribly wrong and do more damage than it does good for all practival purposes sometimes?

I just read something, that I feel is very wrong and wrong based on myslef and what I know? This is simply a beleif.....but I really think it's wrong and without supporting all the reasons why.....lets just assume that I'm right and this is "wrong"...just to show you how what I'm saying is "a problem" if that problem is not "fixed" or "identified as such".

Here's a Christian view of "talents" and "gifts" and what this person believes based on some things said in the bible:

Everyone has some sort of innate talent. You may not think that you are particularly talented, but if you take a closer look at yourself, you’ll discover there is some ability you possess in more abundance than others. Sure, there may be someone out there who is even better at this particular ability, but that’s not the point; you also have an increased ability in this area relative to your other skills and aptitudes. Maybe you’re a better athlete than musician, or maybe you’re a better artist than mathematician. You know where you are talented and where you are not. But how do you know if this particular ability you’re considering is a “natural talent” or a “spiritual gift”? Well, maybe we should start by looking at what the Bible has to say about spiritual gifts. Paul describes spiritual gifts in three places: ( he list them but they are irrelevant to what I'm about to say ) continuing on here..................

So the question is: “What are the differences between natural talents and spiritual gifts, and how might we recognize a spiritual gift when we see one?” Theologians might disagree with each other when talking about talents and gifts, but there are a number of seemingly obvious differences: Talents Are Inherited / Gifts Are Received This is perhaps the biggest and most important difference. Natural talents are those abilities inherited from one’s parents and nurtured in the context of one’s family. We all know people who are talented and come from a long line of family members who share the same talent.

Talents Are Possessed by the Saved and Unsaved / Gifts Are Possessed by the Saved

Everyone, whether they are a believer or a non-believer, has some sort of talent, but only believers have spiritual gifts. NO!! This is wrong. I am absolutely sure of it, this person doesn't know what he is talking about. No, no no no no no!!!

The Spirit of God resides in each and every believer, and “God has allotted to each a measure of faith,” and an ability transcending our natural talents. NO!!! no no no no no .....double NO!! Wrong!!! Dead wrong. NO no no no no no!!! ( how many times, can I say no here? LOL ) Wrong, wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong......a million times wrong!!!

Because the Spirit of God is the source for spiritual gifts, we shouldn’t be surprised those who have God’s Spirit residing in them (those who are saved), would have more than natural talent; believers also have gifts of the Spirit:

NO. That is ass backwards. Gifts come first ( from God ).......talent is what comes from developing those gifts. Believing in God or being saved, has absolutely nothing to do with it. Believing in or having a spiritual belief system and believing in something is a very good thing.....but all you need to have these things is a belief yourself and nothing more? But see, I believe that you are born with GOD in you already.....whether you believe that or not. It could be helpful or even really beneficial....but no exclusive need to what you beleive as in "having to beleive in "Christianity" or to be "saved" in order to get those "gifts"....is wrong. Dead wrong......I know this for fact, for myself....even if I can't prove it? I just know it's wrong. NO no no no no no no. I got the gifts, I had the talent I made use of them and developed them....then I beleived in God....in that order. Sorry Charlie....it simply doesn't work that way.

But now, try and convince this gentlemen of that? See the problem? Just a thought to think about in thinking about what you believe and what you believe is true...or false and how that changes your perception? If you believe what this gentleman said, you could be a very gifted person with amazing talents....and not beleive that you have them....because you listened to him and believed him which is he is simply wrong and I know this first hand as fact, for me. I am the living proof of it and I know it for sure.

What this tells me about the guy saying those things? He was not born with any true "gifts' which is why he bleives these things? That's all it is? Who's this we........again?

J

Chevron, taking meds

Submitted by dedelight4 on Thu, 07/06/2017 - 19:03

Thanks for the post. Yes, he's not taking his meds correctly. Now hes taking the Concerta every few days (1 pill) because he says it, "I can feel it working if I take it like that". But, anyone taking this type of drug needs to take it every day, not skip days or weeks. Plus, it seems strange to me that he talks about "feeling it working". I suppose he means that he can focus better, but still, the doctor is not aware that hes NOT taking it as prescribed, and not even close. My question is, How can it HELP him effectively if hes not taking it right? Wouldnt it make his moods, and focus get even more irratic? Just asking, if anyone knows.

On the meds, Dede

Submitted by Chevron on Fri, 07/07/2017 - 02:26

I see what you say.

I was thinking about his possible bipolarism. That one certainly needs a good professional to diagnose it. If he's bipolar he needs to get on different meds, perhaps additional ones, and the thing is stay on the bipolar meds daily, without fail. There are very large downsides to being a bipolar without meds....Uf, life. I seem to have gotten old enough that I've ended up with a past. Back in the past I lived for several years with someone with bipolarism and both talked with the person about it and read about it. I'm no wannabe armchair professional therapist or doc for sure so take this only as a comment by someone who trusts you to know the behaviors that you're seeing and hopes that if you see a strong match between behaviors and the cluster described by professionals that you do follow up and for your own sake describe whats going on to a professional able to at least inform you about the life of a bipolar on and off meds. You need to know. For you. He sounds like a CLass AA denier, at this point in hs life, so I'm talking to you about you.Things do get worse for a bipolar who remains without treatment for it. You cannot bear the burden of someone's untreated bipolarism. It's more inexorable than ADHD is, in its untreated outcome. With that, I had better full stop, and say that I care about you, of course you need to learn first by reading and pondering, but I do hope you move to the step of getting a professional to hear what you can describe. You, for your own wellbeing need to know whether bipolarism is in the picture or not. Bless you, and here's a hug.

Chevron

I understand your anger Dede.....

Submitted by c ur self on Thu, 07/06/2017 - 19:17

I also understand you trying to clean up things that are linked to you....But, I don't understand you walking back into any kind of care giving situation...(Doing the work for him, he should be doing for his self)...Please don't take that wrong...I think the world of you...Your heart and your character....But please be wise, no matter how much we love our spouses...To take on their responsibilities because they refuse to be responsible, only poison's both parties....Anger and bitterness for us.....reinforcing there skill at manipulation, and pushing them farther into their victim mindset....

Praying for u ;)

Thoughts

Submitted by Drained on Fri, 07/07/2017 - 21:45

I summed up the denial to be his lack of self awareness in addition to being blamed and getting in trouble in childhood - denial being a strategy/coping mechanism. I frequently hear the comment "why is it always my fault or about "fixing" me". What is most challenging is when several therapists tell you it is not just ADHD that is creating the behaviors, you have to ask yourself, what is this doing to me? My quality of life and how I show up in the world each day. It's difficult to wear a mask each day, pretending you have a good marriage when in essence it has been on the rocks for many years and the forecast is not encouraging. The other emotion is just plain longing for the relationship to be normal, and the "only ifs" moments that never come.

denial, and thanks for the posts

Submitted by dedelight4 on Mon, 07/10/2017 - 10:46

It took me a while to get back here, but thanks to everyone who posted, I greatly appreciate it. "Drained", I think the denial is one of the biggest obstacles my husband has the hardest time with. He's been a "little" more open lately about himself and such, but there's a long way to go. His mother was diagnosed bipolar, when she was also diagnosed with Alzheimer's, and his older brother was diagnosed paranoid-schizophrenic at 18, and his sister had terrible mood swings and became an alcoholic at a very young age. Both his brother and sister passed within the last 10 years from drug abuse and alcoholism, and his mother passed from Alzheimer's during this time as well. Interesting part, was that none of these deaths affected my husband very much. He was a little sad while the funerals were going on, but after that, it sort of was out of sight, out of mind. (interesting) Their family had NO "attachments' between them. IT was like 5 separate people all living in the same house, and none of them showed any love or attention to one another. It became a bizarre scene to watch. HIs father seemed to be the most "normal', but was demonized terribly by his mother. She DAILY criticized her husband to her children and anyone who would listen. (NEVER should be done to children) He just didn't know what to do with HER. His escape was to go to the racetrack once a week to get away from her, and she hated him for that.

But, my husband also, doesn't seem to have been able to form any close intimate "attachments" to people his own age, or otherwise. He WAS different while we were dating, but after the wedding, he could only focus on how much he hated his job and "working". But, he never CHOSE what he was going to become, which he has often blamed on his parents and teachers. He went to college for 7 years and got his MA degree in music, then finished his PhD years later, which are phenomenal achievements. And when he did the various jobs he's had, he did very well, but was the only one who couldn't see it, or even APPRECIATE that he did this well. Anyway, the ONLY person I've seen him purposely show physical love and attention to, with relative ease, is our granddaughter. She is now 7, and is growing "up" in little girl years, (so to speak) and it's actually feeling a little weird that he's more attached to a child than anyone else in his life. He's always said that she "understands him" more than anyone else. SHE'S A CHILD........for goodness sake. I do love it that he is close with her, but it does make our OWN daughter's sad that he's never loved THEM in the same way.

Once again, (playing psychologist here), I think my husband's mother had everything to do with him and his siblings turning out the way they did. She had a mental illness that was never dealt with, never properly diagnosed and treated, even though the people around her KNEW that something was wrong with her. But, back in those days, no one ever DID anything about people's issues like that. Difficult people were only called "difficult people" or worse, and didn't usually have many friends from lack of social skills and such, which she didn't.

I've been very hard on myself for choosing this person as a husband, but had to look in to the reason WHY. I now know why I did, and it was obvious. I continued the SAME thing that I was raised with when I was being raised. I had 6 parents, and none wanted me or my siblings, and I chose a person who acted much the same way. They "say" they want to love you, or love you, but their actions don't match the words. Or maybe they matched for a time, but quickly changed for whatever reason. So, then, what to do with THIS information? Still seeking, still learning, still going on. Working on myself now, and some days are ugly. lol, but important.

Dede .....The Bipolar Possibility

Submitted by kellyj on Mon, 07/10/2017 - 17:10

At this point, if almost seems too obvious for words, only in that my wife mother was diagnosed Bi-Polar....so, one might think if it's hereditary.....that my wife my be that too? And I've brought this up with her a number of times saying "well, what do you think? I mean, it seems like a REAL possibility....why not go and ask? Maybe ....you could take some kind of medication which would really help you out and make you feel better?"

Nope. No go there, which is beyond frustrating and seems like such an obvious thing to do? Why wouldn't you, is the better question? And the answer there is ( in my mind is ) there is no good reason....which is where it stands? All I know is that if someone doesn't want to help themselves then you can't make them want to? If someone has that much "hand writing on the wall and that much evidence starting them in the face" and they still refuse to go and just "look and see".....then I simply cannot respect that and give that person any sympathy? Sympathy.....( not compassion ) is what my wife wants. She says things like " show mercy"....and I'm thinking and actually saying out loud..."mercy for what? " I have no idea what I'm suppose to show "mercy for"....and since you won't tell me or go find out.....then I'm having a pretty hard time showing sympathy or mercy for something I have no idea what it is? Sympathy....or feeling "sorry"....for someone who has every opportunity and every means available to go find out and do something about this unknown "something".....and won't do it or says "I don't want to"....is pretty lame in my book? It's hard to see someone as "lame" in a pejorative sense who swears there's nothing like that wrong with her and she's "just fine".

Well...which one is it? Are you "just fine"....or is something wrong with you? And seeing how you won't go find out and 'refuse" to do so and say "I don't want to"....does not illicit a lot of sympathy from me which is exactly what she wants? She thinks sympathy is Love.....and no sympathy on my part is me...."being mean". I don't think I've been "mean to her"....by only saying the truth. The truth will set you free and the truth is not "mean". What is "mean" is what my wife does...which is not honest and not admirable..and very dishonest. What is "mean" is acting "mean" and behaving "mean". Telling the truth....even if it's not what someone wants to hear....is not being "mean" in my book especially when their own "meanness" is effects me negatively and she won't do anything about it? It is why I'm not upset with her leaving. It's the one thing and main reason why I'm not upset....since she will do nothing about her problem....what ever that is? I'm guessing Bi-Polar plus other things which is simply not my problem yet....it becomes mine when she refuses to gto find out for herself. He refusing to go get diagnosed.....is the deal breaker for me. First and foremost for herself...and then secondary but equal importance for me. Her refusal hurt me and her...both at the same time. In my mind.....that is what's mean.

J

J, thank you.....the obvious.

Submitted by dedelight4 on Tue, 07/11/2017 - 13:10

"Well...which one is it? Are you "just fine"....or is something wrong with you? And seeing how you won't go find out and 'refuse" to do so and say "I don't want to"....does not illicit a lot of sympathy from me"

Poignant statement, I agree. Same with my husband. If he has "known" something else has been wrong with him all these years, and/or just refuses to look at it or get a better diagnosis and handle on it makes no sense whatsoever. It puts way too much extra stress on himself AND on me (or anyone else dealing with him). Why NOT get it figured out, except the diagnosis (plus there might not even BE a "clinical' diagnosis) and work on what you think is happening.

Fear.......and denial are the defining factors here, I believe. He's afraid of what he'll find out, so it's easier to either deny it's there, or deny there's anything wrong. (even when he KNOWS there is).

And, then once again, the spouse is left deciding what to do with the information at hand. Stay in denial WITH the other person, get our OWN help, and/or get out of the relationship. Yes. hard thins to do. I am with you that "Information is power', and it's better to KNOW something and DEAL with it, than ignore it.

I AM so glad, you've worked so hard and done SO MUCH to help yourself, and others with ADHD. You have my respect friend.

Dede.......My Final Conclusion, and Thank You

Submitted by kellyj on Wed, 07/12/2017 - 13:58

Dede.....you always have something nice to say and this is something I am trying harder to remember to do. The fact is, I usually do have nice things to say and I usually am much more positive as a rule, but in light of everything that I've gone through to get to the bottom of what is going on ( inside me, inside my wife and between the two of us ).....I finally got the last piece of the puzzle I've been looking for which explains it well enough to me, that I'm pretty satisfied with my onw ( self unprofessional diagnosis ) as to WHAT.....the problem ( for me ) really is? I could say, that this is my personal problem and it definitely is in one aspect of this, since there is and has been something that I can't tolerate or accept....which sounds like that all about me and I need to be more accepting, less judgmental and more tolerant which .....I could say would be my first suggestion to anyone else too?   And trying to find reason or intention behind things can get really problematic since there is so much emotion, hurt and yes ( pain ) involved that it;s really difficult to stay objective and keep and open mind? I've run down that list.....over and over on my part trying to find the place or my own failure to do these things better and to just .....Love......be thankful, and live that "life of abundance" that everyone is always talking about? You see all the advise and these tips of living a full life, tips of Love and Happiness...and how to get there? The internet ( facebook ) and self help books are full of this new age kind of advise and it is presented by the purveyors ( many times who have a product or book to sell ) that if you follow these tips and advise....you'll be on the road to get there. None of it....is bad advise and none of it is wrong. It fails however to take into consideration....."real life" many times. "Real life" ...really is "stranger than fiction" meaning......( and I believe this whole heartedly )...no matter what, we come up with in our imaginations......nature will always throw us a curve ball that no one is ready for? In fact, I have this image of when I was playing baseball...and one of the assistant coach fathers ( who use to be a pitcher ) would pitch to us occasionally in batting practice in order to use some of his patented pitches on us to see if we could hit them. And since I played catcher....I had to catch these things? And the one that he pulles out of his bag of tricks....he use to call "the dippsy doodle" ...and I don't know how he did it....but he could make the ball do things I have never understood how anyone could do that? He could make the ball curves, slide and sink....alll in one pitch and it was almost as hard to catch as it was to hit? And no one could hit it was the point!!! LOL Every kid ( including me ) got a chance to try and hit off this guy....and 'NO ONE" could hit the ball cause there was no way to predict what it would do? LOL It was like swinging at a balll that was literally: curving, changing speeds and then suddenly sinking or dropping right at the end before you hit it like the ball had mind of it's own!!! It was ....'impossible to hit", which is exactly what brought this to mind. And it wasn't just me who couldn't hit.....every single kid of the team failed to ever connect with this pitch and it was a standing challenge that we tried and tried and no one could do it? Out of 15 or so kids.....not one of us ever connected with this pitch is was so bizzarre and so irradict that is really made me appreciate the professional baseball players who can actually hit these pitcher anyway? They must have some kind of magic in their ability to read pitches and now where to put the bat?

And in the almost exact same way, I have been trying to hit or identify the "dipsy doodle" pitch that my wife throws at me ....that I have no bearing or reference to anything like it or can find anything within myself ( exactly ) to explain what I'm experiencing with her? And in light of me just losing it, in front of my T.....which was me saying straight up : "I've had it with this "thing"   that YOU WON'T GIVE ME ANY HELP IN UNDERSTANDING!!!!! (errrrrrrrr!!! ) and that I have tried everything you said....and still with no avail? And I basically spilled out enough information in total frustration to pin point what "my problem with this " was? And as a rule.....he does not diagnose out loud until you really come to him and ask him....but in this case, I was screaming for some help and needing him to narrow it down "for me" .....not for her which clearly, there are reasons why he is not doing this which I got a long time ago? I got that part, but still.....the not knowing, the not understanding and the part about this "dipsy doodle pitch" is impossible to pin down and at the very least......understand on a basic level otherwise....you are just guessing and searching and trying to things about it yourself? But as I am.....I have a strong need to see the "needle go in my arm" so to speak? That's true....when someone is cutting me open or sticking a needle in my arm.....I hate it when they try and cover or sheild it and I want to watch them do it? Doctors have even commented on this saying "are you sure you want to watch this? I'm not sure I would? ( as they are stitching up a huge open wound on my hand...or filleting my finger open? ( both true stories and both doctors were just checking to make sure? ) And in both cases....the doctors expressed that most people don't want to watch themselves get opened up while they are working on them? The same as getting shots? I had allergy shots when I was a kid for a couple of years and I got so many shots in my arm....I can't even remember? But I always demanded to see them do it and I even rememberer this one nurse ( I hated at the time ) who always tried to cover her hand over the needle which really pissed me off!!!! LOL   I'm just weird that way.....but as long as they got me open or if they are just putting a needle in my arm....by golly, it's my body and I want to watch and see what they are doing? Not that I don;t trust the doctors....but my curiosity and need to know about myself, and my body and anything like that or any injury involved.....my need to understand and know how it all works, is so strong that I just have to see and watch for my own understanding and my own knowledge of what they are doing? And it drives me crazy when I can't see? Literally and figuratively....on all levels .....IF and only IF.....it has some kind of effect on me ( and my body) ? Otherwise....it's none of my business what anyone else does and they can do that any way they like. look or not look....it;'s all the same to me?   This is just who I am and how I'm wired and nothing has really changed much in that since I was a kid?

So, at great protest and literally having a melt down in my T;s office and obviously losing my decorum but in fact.....highly aware of what I was angry about....my T injected two words into the conversation ( on my behalf ) that nailed this down so I could see it and at least understand WHAT is it I'm seeing and experiencing? I mean my God, after this much searching and trying to figure this out....at least I will now this when I see this "ever again" in the future with anyone, which is really the pay off or what I get out of this after all of it I think? At very least, I get something that I can use or can makes use of in the future which is what makes all the work worth it if you can at least learn something right?

So in the moment when I was mentioning her memory of something ( and looking at my T and about to go off again ) he brought up PTSD, he mentioned, dissociation and of course the avoidance or avoidance attachment is already a given which he didn't need to say? What ever else is going on and ADHD, or Bi-polar or both and any other PD that goes along with this as the entire group of things happening ( less important and it still does say "what's going one" )....with alll the things I've witnessed and observed and all the frustrating moments of anger and and thinking it;s Okay .,....then it's Not Okay.....fine....but not fine....as my wife appears and says to me? And then their Mini Me....who is the bizarre person that just takes over who is just a total asshole and a half......I finally figure out what is actually happening.....( I think? ) which now make perfect sense to me if I right or at least in the ball park?

She has..and has even said a few times....."you're a stranger to me......you're a stranger".....which is just a bizarre thing to say to someone that you know very well? What does that even mean? I have no idea, but know I think I do? When my wife has a dissociative epidsode.....that is when Mini Me the asshole comes out to play. When Mini Me is out......all memory or any awareness of ( her self ) stops including anything that Mini Me does? In fact...she has no awareness of "Mini Me" at all? So when Mini Me make her unwelcome appearance, there is NO MEMORY what so ever of anything Mini Me says or does? My problem, with my wife...is not with my wife. My problem is with Mini Me....and my wife has no awareness of memory of anything that has to do with Mini Me? In fact....if you even start to mention or talk about Mini Me....that is where all the problems come from? Mini Me....does not exist....in my wifes memory or mind of herself......but Mini Me....does exist and Mini Me is a fucking raging asshole of a person to be around, anywhere near, or even in the same room with. Mine Me....is a really outrageously horribly nasty person with almost no redeeming qualities what so ever? I mean it. NO ONE....in the world or people, would ever want to spend any time with Mini Me since Mini Me is so devoid of anything good...and is just a nasty person, with no manners, no grace, and is just an antagonistic negative person that is unacceptable and intolerant on every level of human decency you could name? "Devoid of Human Decency"....is how I would describe Mini Me? She's just a nasty nasty person that I cannot imagine anyone finding acceptable for even a second? Beyond ill behaved......"nasty, mean, and repugnant" and dumb as a box of rocks on top of it? Really...on top of all of that....Mini Me is about the dumbest or the dimmest bulb, the dullest tool in the tool box, or the one who said they didn't want any ( thought they said trains ) when they were handing the brains out....on top of everything else? Is it further to New York ...or by Plane?

In fact, Mini Me would be the equivalent to a female "Darth Vader" but with the "Eye of Sauron" all rolled into one. LOL   I'm making a point ( and only part kidding really ) to paint a very clear picture of this Mini Me charactor. That's because, my wife is NOT....Min Me and my wife, is a very special and kind and good decent person, with many many loving qualities that I not only Love....but I Love her as well? My wife, is just about everything good and decent you could ever find in a person and I trust that person implicently,,,,to the point, I will be very sad and I will miss her company and the pleasure of having her around and to spend my time with? Not one thing that I said is not true and it is, and are these qualties that I find most attractive and very special because in her heart of hearts....my wife is a kind and beautiful person in every respect? The "dipsy doodle" pitch however....is that with my wife....you also get Mini Me and Mini Me is simple not something I can deal with or handle anymore? And she refuses to go find out or do anything about Mini Me.....and that is the final deal breaker for me....because Mini Me....is just not acceptable...nor is it tolerable to live with or have in my living space. Mini Me....is a horribly abusive nasty and harmful individual...who has NO REDEEMING QUALITIES...........period. There is NOT ONE GOOD THING........that I can say about Min Me. Not even ONE   as in "0".....nichts, nada zippo. Mini Me....is just a horible nasty "thing"....that goes bump in the night and is something only to be afraid of?

And here I am, the one who's not afraid of looking at my hand sliced open and watching the doctors stitch me up or for that matter, not afraid of much of anything most of the time.....but I am afraid of Mini Me. Mini Me scares the day lights out of me and that is the "thing" that hits all my buttons all at once and causes me to have an almost panic attack. It;s always Mini Me....who I get upset or angry with......it's never my wife? And my wife....has no awareness of even any memory of these dissociative episodes so it's a waste of time to even try and talk to her about them...since talking about them is what makes Mini Me appear in the first place? It is a Catch 22 and beyond my power to do anything about. No matter how many times I go to bat....I cannot hit the "dipsey doodle pitch"....since it is just so bizarre, irradic and unusual that I can never connect with it and hit anywhere. Every time I do, I strike out......just like my entire time did back in baseball....when the "Pro"....pulled that out of his bag of tricks.

That in a nut shell, is my final conclusion and as close to being accurate I think ( with all my metaphors and examples ) that is really it. All of it...as bizarre and unusual as it sounds? My wife is a wonderful and intelligent person and I Love her to death. Mini Me is a total asshole.....that I'd just as soon throw off a railroad bridge with a rope tied to a cement block around it's ankles....before I would stop and give "IT" the time of day? The "dipsy doodle" will win and I will lose, when Mini Me comes out to play and there is no stopping Mini.....she will come, there is not way to make it stop? And my wife refuses to do anything about Mini Me.....so her only solution is to leave? So it that's the only option.....I can live with that and I'm good with that? That's the resolution I was searching for, and now that I have it....I can move on just fine. I simply can't live with Mini Me....that's all there is to it?

But I did give it my all, and I did learn all of this which is all good for me. As well as learning about 500% more about me what makes me tick than I did before....so none of this has been a waste of time on my account? All of this has helped me so I can be better so that is worth the price of admission for me Dede.....I appreciate you acknowledging that and gving me your respect. Thank you very much, it means a lot to me ;)

I found this article, which helped explain this to me. This is it ( I think? ) or close enough to call it good.https://www.ptsd.va.gov/professional/newsletters/research-quarterly/v24n...

PS Just for information sake for anyone else.....Mini Me.....can be ( and is ) alchohol indused...to the point that "alchohol alone" will cause Mini Me to come out and play? Flip.....goes the light switch, and now you have Mini Me? Total change in personality, after about 3 or 4 drinks and then NO memory what so ever after that.....just a lot of agressive and asshole behavior....or..."reverting to a child" which is like being with a "drunk" 6 year old? Drunk 6 year olds who are out of control, are nothing you want to hang with even if they are happy and having fun? LOL The odd thing about that is ( compared to me??? ) 3 or 4 or 5 or even 6 drinks....is not enough to make me "drunk" like I am stumbling around and out of control like that which is just odd to me. I'd have to drink twice that much, before I would even start to slur my words? ( must be the Irish in me? My lineage is from Scottland, maybe that's it? Vikings man, they were a hard drinking lot!! LOL Just an FYI for anyone who is interested?

The spin off of victimhood....

Submitted by c ur self on Tue, 07/11/2017 - 19:39

I called as I was leaving the gym around 12:30 today, to see if my wife wanted to meet for lunch...instead of saying yes I will, or No I've got something to do....I got the same answer I usually get....No, but you can bring me something....

I called for one reason only...to seek her company for lunch....I didn't call to take her order....It's always the same thing w/ a victim mind....Use you up....It is so difficult to cultivate a right relationship w/ a victim...There is no way to not enable them in some ways if you engage them at all....There is all this energy that they can expend as long as it's their view of life happening (there fun things, there visiting friends to get there needs meet) But, it's whoa is me, as soon as they walk in the door....

What happens when you try to engage a victim on an honest level to share....And you just say "no" that don't work for me, to their trying to turn it into another opportunity to use you for their selfish benefit, and to cover their laziness in responsible area's?? Yep, your the bad guy?? It's the reason I spend so much time alone...

Taking

Submitted by Chevron on Tue, 07/11/2017 - 20:26

Sigh.

Something from my past life. Once I tried to do right by a long term friend, or someone I thought was one ...doing as I saw doing right...yeah, I could have missed some things in the interaction, yeah, I did...but I did try, I tried by doing the best of my end of things that I could see I could do and ought, by my standards, to do. It was such a sad, bitter pill to swallow... it took me giving him the benefit of a doubt, or concentrating on offering what I could, in as simple a faith as I could.... like you saying, say, do you want to come share lunch out with me?

...but him, driven by his things, turning the offer into a ploy to take something I hadn't offered. Over and over and over again. Not a marriage or a romantic relation. But then, I take my friends seriousl, so this wasnt a secondary situation, to me...

C, I dont know what you're going to do with that turning an invitation into mousetrapping you into doing something you didnt offer.

Me, it took me going through a couple years of it before I decided that I'd be a fool, based on the evidence, to believe that something I offered wouldnt be twisted by this guy into an extortion of something I hadnt offered.

I could have been his friend, in simplicity, you know, but he turned it into cinders and brass. Because he needed, I guess. He must have needed to take.

I know a good woman, a simple Christian, who explained herself as, I just try to do what the Good Book tells us to do.

She listened to me tell her about wanting to give to this man, because you give to friends, you know, I do to my other friends...... and she said, "but HE's not being YOUR friend." There it was, as simple as that.

It takes two

That man I wanted to give to? It never worked as a reciprocity. It was a one way relation. i had hoped for something else, but finally, ball was in my court to do something about his taking.

Wishing you well. No advice from me. It's a hard situation.

Chevron

She listened to me tell her

Submitted by vabeachgal on Wed, 07/12/2017 - 08:10

She listened to me tell her about wanting to give to this man, because you give to ----partners---, you know, as I do to my friends...... and she said, "but HE's not being YOUR partner." There it was, as simple as that.

It takes two

VA.....Dissmisive Avoidant

Submitted by kellyj on Wed, 07/12/2017 - 19:18

I went back and revisited the "Attachment Style" that my wife has once again, just to look at it in retrospect now, with all that I know. I think you can throw ADHD or anything else out the window for a moment, and just look at this Attachment Style for the answer or follow up to the very thing you just wrote or copied from Chevron.

- A person, who looks down on you, and thinks more highly of themselves....is not your friend or a good partner.
- A person, who has given up already on being "close and intimate"...and "fears and is afraid of being close and intimate".....makes a pretty crappy friend and a worse intimate partner right from the start before they even met you
-A person, who is more pre-occupied with their own creature conforts, and can't express to you the way they feel or even know what they are feeling.....makes a terrible intimate partner right from the get go.
-A person, who when things are going well and you start to get near them.....runs away or distances themselves and uses a host of dishonest manipulation tactics to get you to move away from them

"As said in the article I will include: Dismissives are rarely so open about declaring themselves. They think highly of themselves and will tell you they value their self-sufficiency and independence—needing others is weak, feelings of attachment are strings that hold you down, empathy and sympathy are for lesser creatures."

"A Dismissive often has a story of a previous relationship whichwasneverfullyrealized or ended when his partner left—early in his romantic life, or perhaps long-distance. The memory of this idealized previous partner is used as a weapon when the Dismissive tires—as they quickly do—of a real relationship and its demands; no one could measure up to the one that got away. This is another distancing trick to keep real intimacy at bay."

In dating, avoidants can be charming and have learned all the social graces—they often know how they are expected to act in courtship and can play the role well for a time. But lacking a positive view of attached others, they expect relationships to fulfill a romantic ideal which no real human being can create for them, so all fall short and are discarded when it becomes inconvenient to continue. Typically as the relationship ages, avoidants will begin to find fault and focus on petty shortcomings of their partner. Because they are not really aware of their feelings, they can’t talk about them in a meaningful way, and often the first clue the about-to-be-dumped have that something is wrong is the avoidant’s move to break up with them. Once you have read this book, you will likely be aware of the missing signals and the many small clues that the avoidant is not committing to you or anyone any time soon, but those who are unaware of this type will usually soldier on, not trusting their own feeling that something about Prince Charming is not quite right.

The dismissive-avoidant is afraid of and incapable of tolerating true intimacy. Since he was brought up not to depend on anyone or reveal feelings that might not be acceptable to caregivers, his first instinct when someone gets really close to him is to run away. Superficially the dismissive (as opposed to the fearful-avoidant) thinks very highly of himself, and is likely to pin any blame for relationship troubles on his partners; but underneath (especially in the extreme form we label narcissism), there is such low self esteem that at his core he does not feel his true self is worthy of love and attention. Should a partner penetrate his armor, unconscious alarm bells go off and he retreats to either aloneness or the safety of companionship with others who do not realize he is not what he appears to be on the surface.

The dismissive attempts to limit his level of exposure to partners by manipulating his response, commonly by failing to respond to messages requesting assurance. In big and small ways, dismissives let you know that you are low on their priority list, and your inner emotional state is your problem—when you are with one, you are really still alone, in an attachment sense. ( they would rather harm others than harm themselves as part of this unconscious strategy ..taken from another description which really is an important aspect to remember )

side note: A person....who would rather harm you...before they are harmed, makes a horrible friend? You will always get thrown under the bus, when push comes to shove. This is the most cowardly and reprehensible aspect about these people and they have no qualms in doing so. They are weak and cowardly and have to integrity in my mind. The worst kind of friend, you could possibly have in fact? And as far as an intimate partner....it doesn't speak well of you , the person with you does it? This is what I went off on my wife about in our T's office and I kind of let her have it, which she appeared rather unfazed. If the "rabble" or the one "under you'....is squeaking like a mouse, I guess that more of annoyance than anything to take seriously? I had to do a little more than squeak, to get her attention that much I can assure that I did in that moment.

By only partly participating in the normal message-response of the attached, they subconsciously limit the threat another poses to their independence. This behavior is called distancing, and all of us do it to limit our intimacy with others when we don’t want to be as close as they do, but for the dismissive it’s a tool to be used on the most important people in their lives.

Levine and Heller have a useful list of distancing behaviors (also called deactivating strategies):

• Saying (or thinking) “I’m not ready to commit”—but staying together nonetheless, sometimes for years.

• Focusing on small imperfections in your partner: the way s/ he talks, dresses, eats, or (fill in the blank) and allowing it to get in the way of your romantic feelings.

• Pining after an ex-girlfriend/ boyfriend—( the “phantom ex”— more on this later).

• Flirting with others—a hurtful way to introduce insecurity into the relationship.

• Not saying “I love you”—while implying that you do have feelings toward the other person.

• Pulling away when things are going well (e.g., not calling for several days after an intimate date).

• Forming relationships with an impossible future, such as with someone who is married.

• “Checking out mentally” when your partner is talking to you.

• Keeping secrets and leaving things foggy—to maintain your feeling of independence.

• Avoiding physical closeness—e.g., not wanting to share the same bed, not wanting to have sex, walking several strides ahead of your partner.

The more extreme avoidants are almost incapable of talking about their feelings; whatever feelings they do have access to are primarily negative and they have great difficulty describing them verbally. This syndrome is called alexithymia, the roots of the word literally meaning “having no words for feelings,” which is not quite the same thing as not having feelings.

The worst cases can only express themselves with inchoate rages and tantrums, or unexplained physical symptoms like stomach pains and adrenalin rushes.

The most compelling theory of how consciousness arose has between-person communication (primitive language) giving rise to internal communication, so that what we see as a stream of consciousness is actually internal dialogue, talking to yourself.

Noting this, you might say that an inability to name and talk about feelings cripples a person’s ability to be consciously aware of them. If one is very poor at doing this, one would tend to note feelings only as manifested in somatic symptoms like fast heart rate, discomfort, loss of energy, nervousness, etc.

I just wanted to include this here for anyone to look at. All I can say, after my expereince is simply.....every word of this is true. Every word of it....right to the letter exactly ( not just close ) EXACTLY.....word for word, just so you all will know.

https://jebkinnison.com/bad-boyfriends-the-book/type-dismissive-avoidant/

Wow. Thank you, J. This is

Submitted by PoisonIvy on Wed, 07/12/2017 - 19:22

Wow. Thank you, J. This is my ex, almost to a T.

Spot on J

Submitted by Chevron on Wed, 07/12/2017 - 19:36

This particular old friend had such an inability to do a relationship with both risk and trust in it, that he did a lot of the surface stuff that you describe, and sooner or later terminated his relationships. He was his own persecutor.

Thank you for providing this

Submitted by vabeachgal on Thu, 07/13/2017 - 08:13

Thank you for providing this information. You might have hit on something here. I can certaintly see the distancing activities.

Thanks Chevy; for your kindness and thoughtful reply....

Submitted by c ur self on Wed, 07/12/2017 - 17:00

I'm going to be all in; Loving....But I'm also going to be all in expecting accountability....For me to control my emotions...But also to bring light to the pressuring and manipulation attempts....Tomorrow is her 56th Birthday...It's a day of high expectation placing, and pressuring...Her actions make this statement:...."my life want be livable if I can't force you to comply w/ my thinking"....

I ignored most of the comments, and was just enjoying my day...I had plans to pick her up a card, and few things she enjoys...Dark Chocolate; and Kombucha... (also make her a house key, she's misplaced hers)...Also she heads back to work tomorrow for 8 days (been off for 6) I also offered to take her out for an early birthday dinner; or bring her a nice meal at lunch....She wanted to control it....She doesn't see her self.....

So instead of arguing...When I got off the phone I sent this text...."Please never try to pressure me to do what your mind is crying out for...You know that is victim stuff, and only alienates the people who do love you....

I must keep it real....There just isn't a way to handle my emotions, (stress and frustrations) and be at peace unless I kindly point out behaviors that are intrusive and makes me want to leave...She deserves me to do it with kindness and love....But I deserve for her to care, take ownership of her actions w/o being a miserable victim...

By not fretting about the outcome; and just trusting that the Lord will have his way in this!....I am in a much healthier place....

Plain yes and plain no, and

Submitted by Chevron on Wed, 07/12/2017 - 19:24

Plain yes and plain no, and not fretting the outcome go a long way, C.

Lol and accepting that your partner can be having thoughts that you wouldnt think in the situation and lives in a world in which physical things dramatically happen perhaps often enough that reality to them is like a bucking bronco..... like over 20 cotton handkerchiefs gradually disappearing in a small house : ) How about me wearing a white shirt and getting non religiously baptised with red wine due to a vigorous arm wave by my partner in Christ. It took me four, count 'em four rounds of stain removal followed by wash to get my shirt looking like something other than a pinto pony.

Hold firm and give kombucha.

Whatever kombucha is, I'll go look that up.

: )

This question gives me a

Submitted by LRHG on Sat, 07/08/2017 - 07:57

This question gives me a chance to vent here. I am in the process of looking for my own home - I have a realtor helping me and going to the bank for financing Monday, all because I have had enough.

I don't know what I would put at the top of the list. What has almost destroyed me is the continuous and excessive infidelity. Craigslist hookups, prostitutes, affairs. This man will look me in the face and say "I don't do ____ anymore" and then he'll go do it that day. Tied in with this is the excessive lying and lack of any empathy for me whether in regards to the infidelity or any other aspect of our lives. We have a home we were renovating (I'm leaving so doesnt matter now) and we had decided on a bay window for the bathroom. I later suggested maybe we should consider a normal window considering the structure of the house. He was so angry with me and this turned into a 19 hour fight and him accusing me of having everything I want and when I want it and accusing me of all sorts of things that he thought I may do in the future, all not true. I don't know what category to put this behavior into - blameshifting ? denial ? I don't think so. There have been many, many instances of this. He lost it on me one time when he was installiing skirts under the cupboards and I thought one side looked too short. It has been difficult to have a normal conversation with him when there is something to be resolved.

Almost equally damaging has been the lack of security. He suffered a job loss and has not been able to get back on his feet. From reading about others experiences, it is not uncommon for ADHDers to not work for years and seemingly not concerned and depend on their spouses for bringing home the paycheck. Bills dont get paid, taxes don't get filed, over 100k lost in bad investment choices and bad decisions overall have resulted in a very bad financial situation. I do what I can - prepared his tax returns that he was always behind on (3+ years), pay the bills out of a joint account but when he says he'll stop at ___ and pay a bill, it doens't happen and a statement with interest appears later and we have to come up with a large sum.

Then there is general lack of responsibility. WE go to the dump with our garbage and recycling. It's always me, never thinks of it. He bought us a puppy 2/28 which we both love to bits. But it's me that does everything with the dog - training, vet visits, feeding, watering, playing. I don't mind b/c I love her but she's really my dog, not our dog. He does some things very well that need to be acknowledged like keeping food in the house and preparing food and doing dishes.

I guess in sum what prevents me from having a peaceful life is:

a. infidelity and lying

b. complete financial mismanagement

c. inability to communcate and resolve problems - instances like the bay window above

d. the "normal" adhd stuff - projects never finished, collecting stuff, constant mess (I am so tired of having to get up everyday and drain the tub, drain the kitchen sink b/c he just doesn't see it)

D I think I could work with. A and B I definitely cannot. And C could possibly be worked on.

I'm so sad I find myself in this situation.

LRHG

Check out You Tube

Submitted by Drained on Sun, 07/09/2017 - 01:18

There are a couple interesting concepts that I came across on you tube and it resonated for me - the first is covert emotional abuse by Dr. David Hawkins, and the second is the concept of trauma bonding. I've also read that creating situations ending in fights actually creates a dopamine effect in people with ADHD. The amount of drama in my relationship is immense and it seems he can't live without constantly creating scenarios that are exaggerated and unnecessary. I am also on my way out, I can only say that much of the time I am alone and during those times i find peace, serenity and healing - I wish you the same, life is so much bigger and you deserve to be happy.

Thank you for those videos.

Submitted by LRHG on Sun, 07/09/2017 - 09:13

Thank you for those videos. They are helping me understand this much better. The concept of trauma bonding is spot on. Yes, I am alone most of the time here too, and I am happy and at peace during those times.

LRHG

Submitted by c ur self on Wed, 07/12/2017 - 22:27

Good luck taking care of yourself...You have have every reason in the world to walk and way do just that....

Blessings

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