If you're new here or otherwise unfamiliar with me as a poster, please know that I'm now divorced so I'm not looking for a way to resolve this issue vis-a-vis my ex-husband. Instead, I'm still trying to process how and why the relationship went south and maybe helping someone else here in the process.
My ex has a different style of communication than me. His style while we were married was the following: when he was out of town for days at a time (e.g., at his parents' home, 150 miles away), he did not call, email, or respond to my calls and emails. This style continues to this day, not surprising now because we're divorced. But the pattern of what he does remember and communicate about is also consistent. For example, when my nephew was diagnosed with a very serious form of cancer, while ex and I were still married, ex did not follow up with me to ask how my nephew was doing, even when we were in the car together driving to our daughter's college graduation. In contrast, when I called ex a few weeks ago to ask him about his ailing father, he did respond and then ask about a plumbing issue in my house (formerly our house), for which he feels some responsibility. However, he did not ask about my dog, who he knew had been sick and was getting checked out for a possible serious illness (which the dog does indeed have).
Ex has said to me at least two times over the years that he is unable to form close emotional connections.
So, is the communication problem an outgrowth of not wanting to form close emotional connections or is the inability to form emotional connections an outgrowth of the poor communication style? And in either case, is the lack of compassion separate or indistinguishable from the communication issues?
Relationships....
Submitted by c ur self on
Your example's bring a lot of questions to my mind...1) Personality? is he an introvert?...Has there ever been any effort by your X or the Nephew to form any type of relationship that would make them mindful of one another at this conscience level of concern? Had any of the family been giving him personal reports concerning the Nephew's condition? Based on his past actions, what amount of concern has he ever shown for the dog? Is there some other reason you think he would be mindful of the dog?
Your point here is; he didn't do or say these things; therefore; there is a problem....Placing expectations on others to do things, or say things, because you think they should is a slippery slope...We all think and feel differently about relationships...We all think and feel differently about things that are out of our hands...
As for as the abandonment of his wife; and lack of courtesy to even respond to your kind attempts to communicate....Well, I think that says quiet a lot about how he feels about his role in the relationship...Well that speaks for itself also.....
C
He didn't ask for a follow-up
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
He didn't ask for a follow-up on our nephew even though I'd called him from the car, sobbing my guts out, after I was at the appointment at which nephew received his diagnosis.
We had two dogs as a family. He was overwrought when the first dog, "his" dog, died. He didn't believe me when I said the second dog was dying. He knows I'm attached to this dog.
He cries when sad movies are on TV.
When his first girlfriend was expressing some suicidal sentiments on Facebook a few years ago, he contacted her and had several communications. This was at a time when he was at his parents a lot already and wasn't communicating with me while he was at his parents. I found out about the communications with the girlfriend because one of the next times he was back home with me, he told me and one of our daughters about the interactions with the girlfriend, in great detail.
So, are these communication issues or not wanting to form a bond with me issues? I really don't know.
That maybe it.....
Submitted by c ur self on
Maybe he is ignoring you in every aspect....That would make sense to way he isn't responding to the situations you listed....Of course that's a guess unless he would own up to it....All I know PI is that it's evident his lack of concern and empathy has really hurt you....Most of us would feel the same...You deserve so much better.....I hope you can turn your focus off of his thoughtless behaviors....We all have to live with our actions...And he does to....
C
You become what you do
Submitted by Chevron on
Hi, PI
Ex has said to me at least two times over the years that he is unable to form close emotional connections.
If I said that, I know what I'd mean. I wonder what a close emotional connection would be, to him, what its characteristics would be, to him. Would he know that he had one because he had certain feelings? Would he feel the lack of one because somebody wasnt doing certain things for him? Or he wasnt doing certain things for others or with others?
It's hard, likely impossible to know someone else's interior disposition with any certainty. Judging from my husbands conclusions about what he thinks is going on in me, which often are wrong, and my fails at the same with him, unless I ask him, he tells me and I believe him, I'd say part of your very real and important question is not answerable, unless your former husband could introspect and tell you the truth.
So, is the communication problem an outgrowth of not wanting to form close emotional connections or is the inability to form emotional connections an outgrowth of the poor communication style? And in either case, is the lack of compassion separate or indistinguishable from the communication issues?
Great question. Again, only your former husband, if he were able and willing to introspect and tell the truth, could talk in any helpful way to you about anything that he saw himself practicing that had an impact on his lack of giving signs of sympathy for you. Given his ADHD, that might or might not involve him talking about alexythymia, short term memory issues (as in, you told him about something and it didnt stick in his nmemory), self focus, weak ability to read faces, and any other more neurologically driven impediment to social life that came with his ADHD package)
Certainly other people have their own opinions. Mine is that we're not gods, and no matter how important guessing other people's motives is...and it is...none of us have xray eyes to see into anyone else's soul, and it's hard to see past our own illusions and defenses into our own. If we all could do these things, there would be no need for marriage counseling or personal therapy.
So in my opinion, about all that's left, if we cant know for sure whether something is done out of a sympathetic or cold heart, is looking at what people choose to do, over time. At the actions themselves. One necessary feature of compassion is that it spurs someone to kind, generous, helpful action. Its actions: the words said, what one does with one's hands and feet, that are the connecting point with other people. Regardless, often, of what we're feeling, which in any moment probably is multiple strands of feeling.
PI, I think your former husband's actions, over time were consistent. No matter what he felt that day.
There's a traditional saying that in time, people become what they do habitually. I think that's possible.
Best to you, PI
PI, wondering the same
Submitted by dedelight4 on
Hi, I've asked this question many times myself concerning my husband. Such as: Does he feel true compassion for others, or is his "view" of compassion only related to what and how much any circumstance affects his own life? And, does he even " feel" this at all, or are some of his feelings a "manufactured" thing? like its something he's watched other people do, and he responds in a similar fashion, but its really not "felt" at all......its a copied action so that he appears to be like everyone else.
My husband has OFTEN said, "I've always known there was something wrong with me", but then doesn't take that any further. But, this statement could mean a whole LOT of things. My question has always been," Why don't you want to find out what that "something" is"? meaning......why doesn't he want to KNOW why he is different and find out if this can be helped or changed for the better? Why stay in the "unknown", and in the fear of denial? Their choice to DO this is GOING to affect people around them, but they seem to push that aside as well.........which again, brings us back to the " compassion" thing.
Do they have COMPASSION and/or a deeper level of "feelings" for those around them, to try to help others who are in relationships WITH them? Or is it going to always (or mostly ) be a non ADHD person who has to do the bulk of the "understanding", patience, compassion, love,etc in these relationships? BUT........then....the person in denial gets to be the " regulator" of how much progress actually gets made between the people involved. And, the NT then gets regulated to a much different existence than they want or even NEED, and we have to do all kinds of learning and actions to adjust our lives to a very dysregulated system we know very little about. And to have even a measure of a "marriage", we have to redefine the ENTIRE meaning of that word.
The biggest and most destructive thing I learned from this type of marriage was NOT to have ANY type of " needs, desires, wants, or dreams"........and I learned that SO well, that it almost destroyed me. I was to "give love and understanding", but not to EXPECT that I could ever have that in return. Whatever I got was the " best" he could do, which was working his job. But working a job is not expressing LOVE,compassion and meaningful intimate expressions to your mate. EVERYONE has to work, if you want to eat and have a place to live, its not to be a substitute for intimate expressions of feelings and love.
I do believe that somewhere there is a gap or disconnect in the minds and hearts of those who stay in denial (ADHD or not) so that any self change doesn't HAVE to take place......sort of an excuse for not changing for the better.
I beat myself up pretty bad for choosing this way of life, which piled even MORE junk on my crumbled self esteem. So, now is the DE- construct of years of trying to cope with such dysfunction and chaos. There's a lot to learn, and UN learn.
Anyway, just adding my 2cents. Glad you are out of your situation and now can move on to a better life. Very happy for you.
There's a lot of truth in that
Submitted by Chevron on
The person in denial gets to be the " regulator" of how much progress actually gets made between the people involved.
Yes, Dede! It's like having agreed to play tennis together and to be playing tennis together, and the denier player during the game refuses to return the ball... but insists and swears on a stack of something that he/she is still playing tennis and wants to be playing tennis. Well, that keeping a ball instead of returning it either kills the tennis game right there, or the other player, like you say, has to adjust or do extra to try to get the denier to do something with that ball.
Yes, yes, it's the denier (who takes possession of what needs to be passed back and forth and shared) who, as you say, regulates how the tennis game proceeds or whether it has stopped cold and wont go on. It's the non denier who has to figure out whether or not the game is on hold or it's dead and over with.
And, the NT then gets regulated to a much different existence than they want or even NEED, and we have to do all kinds of learning and actions to adjust our lives to a very dysregulated system we know very little about.
NT or whoever the non-denier trying to work on bettering the relationship is, in a couple with a denier in it.
I so agree with all that you wrote, Dede.
That issue of not being asked
Submitted by SweetandSour on
That issue of not being asked about something that my husband and I talked about so he knew it was significant to me has come up for me many times. I thought it meant he didn't care. But... if you put it in the context of all we've learned about ADHD - maybe it's just the "now"/"not now" thinking at work. Not that they don't care - just that they simply don't think of it when it's not right there in front of them - and they are easily distracted by so many other things - and they can't prioritize thoughts very well. Plus, poor memory and all that self-focus (which in itself - is that lack of caring or simply distraction by what's right in front of them - themselves! ?). I don't know - just speculating and giving the benefit of the doubt to people that we know have a disorder of executive functioning.
Good points, SweetandSour.
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
Good points, SweetandSour. And thank you to everyone for your responses and insights. The analogy of the tennis game with an opponent who doesn't hit back the balls is particularly apt.
Lots of good things pointed out in this thread....
Submitted by c ur self on
But if you wrap up all the questions, guesses, assumptions, all the analogies, and all the points made and put them in pretty little package.....I think I would have to name the package one of three names...."Very Difficult" "Impossible" " A fools errand".....The last one may seem a little harsh:)...But I'm leaving it there because I have felt that way to often the last 9 years.....
So if living life w/ our spouses is a tennis match....What should happen to me when the ball isn't being returned? Should I stand there patiently getting old w/ my racket in my hand for as long as it takes for her to notice the match is at a stand still, because she isn't returning the ball? Or, should I verbally holler across the court for her to keep the ball moving, so the match can continue for us both? Or should I recognize that my partner isn't capable of any sustained volleys and live without expectation of anything except, short, stop & start (sporadic) matches? Or, should I calmly lay my racket down when the ball stops, walk away with no thought of anything different ever being able to take place? Or, should I shake her hand, and tell her, I've decided to not play tennis any longer with her?
I don't think the totality of the problem is that the ball keeps stopping...(for me anyway)...I'm use to that....I think the problem for me is...I just refused to pick the right solution out of my above list....But, for years, I didn't have a problem picking the wrongs ones...LOL....
It's never to late:)
C
Lightbulb Moment
Submitted by DependentOrigination on
Thanks. I stopped serving balls this summer. It’s October now. Still waiting.
To cut him some slack, he did book a vacation with me in February (after I booked a solo ticket), tried to set up a budget with me (which he abandoned less than 24 hours later), and initiated some affection without wanting something from me a few days ago. He even said he thinks he has ADHD! I didn’t even bring the topic up!
Still not sure if these small gestures are him returning the serve but I have plenty of time and very little anxiety about the outcome so.. it’s wait and see time. I have no other place to be.
Great analogy. Great thread PI. I ask the same question. Does he cross my boundaries because he forgot/didn’t notice/didn’t care or out of an attempt to get my attention?
I don’t know. I might read some more books.
Tennis "game"
Submitted by vabeachgal on
I agree with what Chevron said. Oftentimes, the non ADHD partner is accused of being controlling but just as often, it is the denier who is actually controlling the game... the non denier gets sidetracked trying to get the ball into play that he or she can easily lose sight of whether or not the ball is worth pursuing. Maybe skiing would be a better sport than tennis with a one person team?
And maybe it's just not possible to play that sport together but if it's your heart's desire, it still hurts and is frustrating. I understand the executive functioning thing but, geez, it still feels awful.
Different Strokes
Submitted by jennalemone on
It's like having agreed to play tennis together and to be playing tennis together, and the denier player during the game refuses to return the ball... but insists and swears on a stack of something that he/she is still playing tennis and wants to be playing tennis. Well, that keeping a ball instead of returning it either kills the tennis game right there, or the other player, like you say, has to adjust or do extra to try to get the denier to do something with that ball.
This SOOOO rings true about our situation...as it feels to me. I have been trying to play tennis. I assumed we both agreed to the game ... the rules are "marriage".
H is not playing tennis with me. H is putting on a one man show on his side of the court. And the show is open for anyone who might adore him. He is wondering why the audience/manager/theater-owner (me) is not appreciating and clapping. He expects to be paid (with laud and honor and financial support) for his entertainment - his personality and smoke and mirrors. So when I serve a ball in his direction according to my understanding of the rules of the tennis game/marriage, I expect him to respond and keep the rules and the game going. But he responds with "Stop throwing things at me that I don't want. Don't expect me to stop in the middle of my song and dance to give you what you want back from me. You are not supporting my show."
So, given that we have been playing different games for decades, what is my decision on how to live my life? I have completely stopped serving balls into his court and not expecting anything back from him. Just observing his show. To me, it is a sad "death of a salesman" drama and painful to watch. He seems to believe it is standup comedy. He serves up yet another of his worn out one-liners and expects me to be the co-star/assistant to his raunchy gag-laughs. He expects me to be the Gracey to his George like I probably did when we were young. But George loved and cared for Gracey and George was not angry and crude. It FEELS to me like a daily 3 stooges routine that stops cold when it gets to be my turn to say nyuk, nyuk, nyuk to keep his schtik rolling. I am the girl who doesn't laugh at his jokes any more and he is the guy who drops the balls on our contract. So we are just watching his show. I am permitting this unwelcome reality to sink in to me. How long will I sit here contemplating and just trying to clean up the theater? It is my decision. I would rather be playing tennis.
A remarkable moment, and a possible answer to your question PI
Submitted by kellyj on
I came back again to share some insight which is directly related to this thread. I am in somewhat of a similar situation as you even though technically we are not divorced officially.... our marriage as it was is effectively over and my original fears do to D's behavior and everything that led up to her leaving, left me guessing and trying to fill in the blanks due to the lack of communication or better... what communication there was what was said and then the actions that I witnessed and experienced all led me to believe whatever I ended up believing which was missing based huge amounts of information and .... and basically a cohesive story. The story I had was based solely on what had been said which fell short in filling in the huge gaps in order for me to make sense of it. The problem with that is that all of that came from me not from the person directly..... that is, the one and only person who had those answers and she wasn't talking.
My thoughts now looking back in hindsight, and even though I have ADHD I realized that I'm subject to the exact same issue being on the other side. What I experience is absolutely no different then what anyone else would experience under the same circumstances ADHD or not. And here I am with ADHD and I still could not place this Behavior nor where it was coming from but for my own peace of mind and in order to move forward I needed to create at least a store that made sense to me. That story and everything that went with it was inherently flawed from the get-go and even though I knew that I still needed something to put my mind to rest just so I could make sense of my own experience and how I fit into it. This is not about finding fault or blame or who was wrong this was more in respect to filling in the holes and the missing spaces and the large gaps in the story that made the story incomplete... I guess my own intolerance of not having a story that makes sense comes from my own experience and understanding what happens and what has happened with me whenever that's been the case. I never bothered to figure these things out in the past because I didn't feel they were important.... I could quickly dismiss many things I cannot dismiss now because I know what those things mean and what the consequences are of not having the information I need to make good decisions. Basing any story or idea on the wrong premise to begin with will me and the entire story will be flawed and that much is what I really come to find. It was important to me to verify what I knew based on my intuition and my own lack of knowledge which can only get you so far unless you know the facts and have access to all the information you need. Your personal feelings and how you see things are simply that they do not give you necessarily an accurate assessment of what you're seeing nor do they tell you the truth or the parts that are missing missing.... this much I know for sure from countless failures in my own thinking in the past. Past experiences can definitely lead you in the wrong direction if you simply don't know and that's the hardest part if the other person is not communicating it to you. Something else needs to happen before you can know what you're seeing and why that is.
This was something that I wanted to share with everyone here based on the amount of time effort and the massive amounts of writing that I did in order to learn and try and understand which in some ways may be seen as a huge waste of time based on the fact that our marriage effectively failed as it was... as it was is the key Point here. As I'm saying this in connection to my comment that what I experience is no different than what anyone else experiences ADHD or not, would lend itself to the idea that the things I learned my only be useful for someone with ADHD but that I found is not the case it is valuable information an education and learning under any circumstances when dealing with other people and relationships with them I believe.
Getting right to it... I'm living alone now it's just me again... and with that it simplifies everything dramatically. I can't use anyone including d as a reason for why I do something or not do something and what I found is I've do what I've always done to a certain degree and the ADHD symptoms or quite easy to see and spot... they stand out like a sore thumb which is what I discovered the last time I was in this situation. Everything Has Changed dramatically that much for sure for good or bad a change and a radical one occurred.... this is a fact that there is no denying and denial has a huge part to play here. As I speculated and had said a number of occasion I think denial was the biggest problem and wall that I faced with D.... to what degree though however only she knows those answers and in part I've got those answers and hugely beneficial was all the research the analyzing and simply educating myself in order not to differentiate as much as to identify accurately what I was seeing. Having ADHD myself can be a huge asset as long as I know what it is I'm saying identification more than different differentiation I think as I'm saying this. If you wrongly identify a behavior or an action or a habit or whatever it is that's a problem.... any conclusions you come to from that are not going to be correct and that is a problem in itself when it comes to this communication issue I understand exactly what you're saying pi for the same reason as you stated it. And it's not just idle curiosity or Hanging On To The Past... it has to do with making sense of your own story and getting a real answer that you can feel confident is close to accurate even if not 100% right. If you are out in left field and are seeing something that you you believe erroneously that is true you can only fault yourself for that despite the lack of information coming from the other person assuming can only be used to fill in the blanks as a possibility only it cannot really resolved anything unless you really know for sure. What I just experienced this past weekend told me more, answered more and resolved more for me then ever before because our communication opened up due to something happening that was outside of either one of our control. I was home working and doing my thing and there was a knock at the door on Friday morning. When I went to answer it it was D to my surprise. I was not expecting it nor had her in my plans but that quickly changed when I found out why she had stop by as she had just been fired from her job and I was the first one she thought of to come to for support. And in my own way it is where I tend to shine at times when there's a crisis I tend to keep a very cool head. I think these experience away from me with others showed her in one respect where are my strengths were in that she just said several times that the people that she has talked to in recent times about things didn't think of or didn't talk to her about the same things that I did... all they did was confirm what she already knew and I think she was looking for a different perspective and needed it the same as I did.... I understood that experience and had a common ground to speak to her from. Working on finding common ground instead of what is different is one thing that I've learned from coming to this forum and that was a valuable skill that came in handy I was able to hear her and not put any judgment on it.... I understood what it's like to be rejected even though I've never been fired I feel that if I had stayed in the job that I had eventually I would have been due to the fact that the business was shrinking rapidly and not doing well. I recently found out that shortly after I left the last employee out of the two that were left also left which leaves one employee there from the start starting point of 14 at one time. In my case I saw the handwriting on the wall and didn't take that personally I knew the business is financials and they were not looking good with no Prospect for the future looking any better. I could have stayed until I was fired or let go but I chose to leave before that time to avoid that experience and have more control of what I was going to do and not end up finding myself in exactly that position as d expressed to me..." I didn't see that one coming.... I didn't wake up this morning thinking I would be fired.. and from what I saw I didn't expect that either accept I do think there is a part of her firing she cannot see and when I say cannot see I'm saying she doesn't have the ability to see it... that much she is still in denial about which was also useful for me to be able to know the right things to say and possibly the wrong things to say. Speaking to her about her denial as being a possible source for her being let go because of what she is unable to see on an able to do anything about would not serve her in the least not in that moment when she needed somebody just to listen to her. I quickly came to that conclusion and that topic of conversation never came up, and because of it I had all the compassion I needed in her time of need. Like I said identifying what is needed is as much the problem I think. if Compassion or any other quality seems to be missing... is it lack of ability lack of capacity or not being able to identify the right time and when based on what you see. This was my regret and not understanding her love language better in order to utilize that information but it seems now was my chance. Having a second chance to use what I learned seem to make all the difference in the world.... knowing the right thing to say knowing what she needed and knowing how to do it... was the key and understanding her and what her needs were.... in the moment of need not sometime later. And this time I was able to do it without a problem in the way she needed it not in the way I needed it.. more to the point. having a situation where you're fired from your job it doesn't matter why you got fired or whose fault it was in that moment it just sucks.....period. not that difficult to identify in a situation like that.
and impromptu...D told me that she didn't want to be alone and since we had such a successful weekend together at local hotel only a mile from my house.... she offered to pay for at least the room if I would split the cost for everything else.
If you go back to me right after she left I had a lot of unresolved feelings to sort through and feeling used was one of them so one might assume that that was the first thing that crossed my mind but it wasn't I thought of it later but that's irrelevant. what I did once again was drop everything for her and her crisis but at the same time it was the weekend I could use the break and the company myself and it was something I look forward to... in essence I had the time I had the means and it was something I could do easily.... and for that matter she didn't expect it I offered and gave that to her freely, despite her failing to do that at times for me I wasn't doing the tit-for-tat thing I was operating independently of her based on what I felt I should do not on what she expected. not something I think she can see clearly but she got a taste of what happens when you allow someone to give to you without anyone twisting their arm..... a huge part of self-sabotaging behavior is that it prevents others from giving you exactly what you want in fear of not getting it.... you yourself prevent it from happening and that is what D does better than anything. her own behavior so often makes it impossible to give her what she wants because she won't let you in her own fear that she won't get it. she tries to force it or make that happen on her terms.... this was one case she could not plan for or be ready for and she was at a loss. she came to me first out of everyone and that spoke volumes to me. As I now see her more clearly ... in her love language that was an expression of love even if it's not for anyone else..... the entire weekend for me was me renaming Andrey identifying everything that I was saying and putting it into a different perspective that I had before, and it was from that that the remarkable moment came where I witnessed something that I had experienced before but always as it applied to me because it was about me this time I was out of the picture completely and I witnessed it again now which really raised my eyebrows. It was that fact that what I was seeing was exactly the same as what I saw before but now in a different context about a different person and none of it had to do with me.... if I was unsure before I was absolutely sure now that what I was seeing had to do more with an inability or dysfunction. .. no intention whatsoever on her part.
This was almost identical to what I experienced at the end.... where she had downloaded everything wrong with me in a two hour. Repeating it over and over many times or I begged her to stop. hearing how horrible you are for 2 hours I think might be unbearable for for anyone for that long a Time. but now here I am listening to her again and in the same way repeating the same thing over and over to the point I said the same thing to her " you know that you just said that to me and now you're saying it to me again as if I didn't hear it... I heard you the first time, you don't need to repeat it." do you think she's stopped? Absolutely not.... it was becoming really annoying... but that's but that's it. It was annoying... and eventually she she did stop but not until she had expressed all those emotions verbally straight out of the stream-of-consciousness going on in her head I was living it hearing it.... every word. It appears now to me.... and I am basing this on her childhood.... she she was conditioned and programmed to do this... and instead of being annoyed I listened to the pattern happen over and over and it was exactly the same every time she said. Her ability to contain that and hold that in is simply not there at the same time I believe it served a purpose at one point in time to be the squeaky wheel or no one would pay attention to her.. that is what I seeing now and I think I'm correct and what I'm seeing. again what I'm saying is that this is a dysfunction compared to anyone else including myself. In respect to my childhood challenge it was the opposite that worked. putting that s*** in a can and putting a lid on it... was the best course of action in my household. despite my ADHD I learned to do that out of survival and it worked as it's as real as the situation required it. In respect to D... her situation was different. her situation demanded a different set of skills and those are the skills she learned almost opposition to the ones that I learned when confronted with the identical situation. I thought of this and even told her at one time that she would never have survived behaving like she did in my household but then again what I did probably would not have served me in the least in her situation at best. having compassion and empathy is simply understanding or knowing what you need to have compassion for to identify it correctly. If you cannot identify what it is why you need to do it, and then know the right way to do it specific to that person not based on you and what you would need specifically.... one might think that then it's not an inability or a lack of capacity it's simply being able to identify when and what that person needs. I can't put myself in her shoes and know what her childhood challenges and experiences were I didn't have them... mine was completely different in fact nothing like what she experienced.... how can you put yourself in someone else's shoes if you've never had that experience before in my mind you can't. not exactly and not specifically... that does make empathy somewhat difficult if you've never had that experience before. and just to remind everybody reading this.... people with ADHD experience the same situations and see the same things differently than other people which means their experience, and how they experience things is most likely different than you. and the same thing goes the other way.... it's why I looking for common ground or things in common it's really the only logical choice. from there knowing that it's it's different that means you cannot use yourself or anything you might assume based on you because 9 times out of 10 wrong. one thing that I successfully was able to get D to see really just this weekend.... was that so much that she assumes about me is incorrect or a misinterpretation based on what it looks like not what it is. I was able to tell her that that was probably the most frustrating thing that you have to deal with with the public at Large. no one really knows about ADHD unless they have to and for someone who doesn't have it.... and for someone who doesn't have it there's really no need to know or really care all that much it's just not something that is pertinent to them so why would they? the answer is they don't..... however on the flip side of that being only five out of a hundred people in a room full of people.... it's the five people who need to understand the other 95 who tend to see and think things more commonly the same or similar ... the burden of proof lies on me to figure that out not everybody else.... except for my intimate partner. it's the one person that needs to know needs to spend the time and needs to understand or they will not understand me or know what to do and be able to interpret my behaviour accurate accurately and not misinterpreted as something else. I don't expect the rest of the world to care only one person do I have that expectation of but that comes with the same frustration as everybody else... but if you want to know what love is to me... that's a good place to start.
what came from this was a realization if at least not for the rest of the world just for me. it told her that she cannot assume that I either understand her or know what she's thinking or feeling and she has to share a certain amount of information in things I cannot know in essence.... I cannot know what it's like not to have ADHD in the same way no one who doesn't have it cannot know what experience is either the only way to know is not to assume that you do and try to find some other common ground that you do share .... that is common to everyone ADHD or not. one moment for example where she was referring to a problem as she saw it but brought up an example that was unrelated to what she was talking about. in this one example I point it out to her in the years that we've been together I only did that once which is true? how can one time doing anything on the steak error how can one time doing anything .....one mistake or as I thought.... a one-time occurrence that never happened again constitute a problem and why was she was limping that in with something else where it simply didn't apply and didn't belong? the answer is easy she was assuming and misinterpreting what she saw as being the same as those other things and it wasn't up to me in that moment to correct that or change her mind. I could easily Let It Go and move past that. That will happen in time wheather with her or anyone else. I'm not going to fix that problem ever really... all I can do is keep these things in mind and deal with it as I can the same with everybody else. I have those skills if I choose to use them. the situation did not call for that and it wasn't necessary at all. and in the same way I allowed her to come to me and tell me how she really felt. by doing just that much and allowing her to do it allowed her to time to think about it and then later and then actually opened up and told me what she felt. doing what I did was the proof that she needed in order to do that. I had to be the one to do it first before she could. but once I did that I got what I wanted. as soon as she offered the information that I needed on her own in her own time I was able to use that to correct a number of misconceptions she had because now she was listening. it took me to listen first .... or she simply could not do it. I was seeing that as a dysfunction and an inability she has.... and simply not knowing how. As soon as I saw that way it changed my perspective and also changed what I said and what I did about it which in my mind was a complete success..... where before we never made it that far into the conversation not even one time... it was a remarkable change and difference.
and to use something that's been said here in this thread as an example of this just to point this out for no other reason...... the idea of seeing somebody with ADHD presenting them with a program and the things that they're supposed to do in order to counter the ADHD symptoms... and then to say you see them do it but then they stopped or it's not working because you're not seeing the results that you want and expect...... and namely as the comment referred, that enough time had gone by that the person saying it said that they should see something or some chains and their opinion.... based on the time that had gone by.
based on everything that I just said.... how could you know? That is how could you know if it's working or not you're not that person and you don't have ADHD?
I'll leave it right there because I think this is a major major source of conflict in communication. is this normal and is this what one would expect a non-adhd person to do or for that matter anyone to? The answer is yes. but you're not dealing with someone who is like you you're dealing with one of five people in a room of 100.... what you thinkin feel or any opinion on the matter we'll just perpetuate more of the same if you can't change what you're doing for that person and what they need.... not so much and not as important in this case in respect to what you need. Compassion works both ways or it doesn't work at all... if you're doing it the way you need and the way it works for you chances are you're going to be wrong more often than not ....I think that's more of the problem .... is simply identifying what it is and then knowing what to do and how. And what I found is that applies to even me having ADHD when dealing with somebody else in denial. You cannot miss something you don't have and you cannot know what that is until you have it .....I think that's common ground that everyone can understand.
I have more to say about all the things that have gone on since I last was here but I'll save that for a different time.... more importantly to this thread I just wanted to share what I learned more than anything else.
J
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A remarkable moment, and a possible answer to your question PI
Submitted by kellyj on
I came back again to share some insight which is directly related to this thread. I am in somewhat of a similar situation as you even though technically we are not divorced officially.... our marriage as it was is effectively over and my original fears do to D's behavior and everything that led up to her leaving, left me guessing and trying to fill in the blanks due to the lack of communication or better... what communication there was what was said and then the actions that I witnessed and experienced all led me to believe whatever I ended up believing which was missing based huge amounts of information and .... and basically a cohesive story. The story I had was based solely on what had been said which fell short in filling in the huge gaps in order for me to make sense of it. The problem with that is that all of that came from me not from the person directly..... that is, the one and only person who had those answers and she wasn't talking.
My thoughts now looking back in hindsight, and even though I have ADHD I realized that I'm subject to the exact same issue being on the other side. What I experience is absolutely no different then what anyone else would experience under the same circumstances ADHD or not. And here I am with ADHD and I still could not place this Behavior nor where it was coming from but for my own peace of mind and in order to move forward I needed to create at least a store that made sense to me. That story and everything that went with it was inherently flawed from the get-go and even though I knew that I still needed something to put my mind to rest just so I could make sense of my own experience and how I fit into it. This is not about finding fault or blame or who was wrong this was more in respect to filling in the holes and the missing spaces and the large gaps in the story that made the story incomplete... I guess my own intolerance of not having a story that makes sense comes from my own experience and understanding what happens and what has happened with me whenever that's been the case. I never bothered to figure these things out in the past because I didn't feel they were important.... I could quickly dismiss many things I cannot dismiss now because I know what those things mean and what the consequences are of not having the information I need to make good decisions. Basing any story or idea on the wrong premise to begin with will me and the entire story will be flawed and that much is what I really come to find. It was important to me to verify what I knew based on my intuition and my own lack of knowledge which can only get you so far unless you know the facts and have access to all the information you need. Your personal feelings and how you see things are simply that they do not give you necessarily an accurate assessment of what you're seeing nor do they tell you the truth or the parts that are missing missing.... this much I know for sure from countless failures in my own thinking in the past. Past experiences can definitely lead you in the wrong direction if you simply don't know and that's the hardest part if the other person is not communicating it to you. Something else needs to happen before you can know what you're seeing and why that is.
This was something that I wanted to share with everyone here based on the amount of time effort and the massive amounts of writing that I did in order to learn and try and understand which in some ways may be seen as a huge waste of time based on the fact that our marriage effectively failed as it was... as it was is the key Point here. As I'm saying this in connection to my comment that what I experience is no different than what anyone else experiences ADHD or not, would lend itself to the idea that the things I learned my only be useful for someone with ADHD but that I found is not the case it is valuable information an education and learning under any circumstances when dealing with other people and relationships with them I believe.
Getting right to it... I'm living alone now it's just me again... and with that it simplifies everything dramatically. I can't use anyone including d as a reason for why I do something or not do something and what I found is I've do what I've always done to a certain degree and the ADHD symptoms or quite easy to see and spot... they stand out like a sore thumb which is what I discovered the last time I was in this situation. Everything Has Changed dramatically that much for sure for good or bad a change and a radical one occurred.... this is a fact that there is no denying and denial has a huge part to play here. As I speculated and had said a number of occasion I think denial was the biggest problem and wall that I faced with D.... to what degree though however only she knows those answers and in part I've got those answers and hugely beneficial was all the research the analyzing and simply educating myself in order not to differentiate as much as to identify accurately what I was seeing. Having ADHD myself can be a huge asset as long as I know what it is I'm saying identification more than different differentiation I think as I'm saying this. If you wrongly identify a behavior or an action or a habit or whatever it is that's a problem.... any conclusions you come to from that are not going to be correct and that is a problem in itself when it comes to this communication issue I understand exactly what you're saying pi for the same reason as you stated it. And it's not just idle curiosity or Hanging On To The Past... it has to do with making sense of your own story and getting a real answer that you can feel confident is close to accurate even if not 100% right. If you are out in left field and are seeing something that you you believe erroneously that is true you can only fault yourself for that despite the lack of information coming from the other person assuming can only be used to fill in the blanks as a possibility only it cannot really resolved anything unless you really know for sure. What I just experienced this past weekend told me more, answered more and resolved more for me then ever before because our communication opened up due to something happening that was outside of either one of our control. I was home working and doing my thing and there was a knock at the door on Friday morning. When I went to answer it it was D to my surprise. I was not expecting it nor had her in my plans but that quickly changed when I found out why she had stop by as she had just been fired from her job and I was the first one she thought of to come to for support. And in my own way it is where I tend to shine at times when there's a crisis I tend to keep a very cool head. I think these experience away from me with others showed her in one respect where are my strengths were in that she just said several times that the people that she has talked to in recent times about things didn't think of or didn't talk to her about the same things that I did... all they did was confirm what she already knew and I think she was looking for a different perspective and needed it the same as I did.... I understood that experience and had a common ground to speak to her from. Working on finding common ground instead of what is different is one thing that I've learned from coming to this forum and that was a valuable skill that came in handy I was able to hear her and not put any judgment on it.... I understood what it's like to be rejected even though I've never been fired I feel that if I had stayed in the job that I had eventually I would have been due to the fact that the business was shrinking rapidly and not doing well. I recently found out that shortly after I left the last employee out of the two that were left also left which leaves one employee there from the start starting point of 14 at one time. In my case I saw the handwriting on the wall and didn't take that personally I knew the business is financials and they were not looking good with no Prospect for the future looking any better. I could have stayed until I was fired or let go but I chose to leave before that time to avoid that experience and have more control of what I was going to do and not end up finding myself in exactly that position as d expressed to me..." I didn't see that one coming.... I didn't wake up this morning thinking I would be fired.. and from what I saw I didn't expect that either accept I do think there is a part of her firing she cannot see and when I say cannot see I'm saying she doesn't have the ability to see it... that much she is still in denial about which was also useful for me to be able to know the right things to say and possibly the wrong things to say. Speaking to her about her denial as being a possible source for her being let go because of what she is unable to see on an able to do anything about would not serve her in the least not in that moment when she needed somebody just to listen to her. I quickly came to that conclusion and that topic of conversation never came up, and because of it I had all the compassion I needed in her time of need. Like I said identifying what is needed is as much the problem I think. if Compassion or any other quality seems to be missing... is it lack of ability lack of capacity or not being able to identify the right time and when based on what you see. This was my regret and not understanding her love language better in order to utilize that information but it seems now was my chance. Having a second chance to use what I learned seem to make all the difference in the world.... knowing the right thing to say knowing what she needed and knowing how to do it... was the key and understanding her and what her needs were.... in the moment of need not sometime later. And this time I was able to do it without a problem in the way she needed it not in the way I needed it.. more to the point. having a situation where you're fired from your job it doesn't matter why you got fired or whose fault it was in that moment it just sucks.....period. not that difficult to identify in a situation like that.
and impromptu...D told me that she didn't want to be alone and since we had such a successful weekend together at local hotel only a mile from my house.... she offered to pay for at least the room if I would split the cost for everything else.
If you go back to me right after she left I had a lot of unresolved feelings to sort through and feeling used was one of them so one might assume that that was the first thing that crossed my mind but it wasn't I thought of it later but that's irrelevant. what I did once again was drop everything for her and her crisis but at the same time it was the weekend I could use the break and the company myself and it was something I look forward to... in essence I had the time I had the means and it was something I could do easily.... and for that matter she didn't expect it I offered and gave that to her freely, despite her failing to do that at times for me I wasn't doing the tit-for-tat thing I was operating independently of her based on what I felt I should do not on what she expected. not something I think she can see clearly but she got a taste of what happens when you allow someone to give to you without anyone twisting their arm..... a huge part of self-sabotaging behavior is that it prevents others from giving you exactly what you want in fear of not getting it.... you yourself prevent it from happening and that is what D does better than anything. her own behavior so often makes it impossible to give her what she wants because she won't let you in her own fear that she won't get it. she tries to force it or make that happen on her terms.... this was one case she could not plan for or be ready for and she was at a loss. she came to me first out of everyone and that spoke volumes to me. As I now see her more clearly ... in her love language that was an expression of love even if it's not for anyone else..... the entire weekend for me was me renaming Andrey identifying everything that I was saying and putting it into a different perspective that I had before, and it was from that that the remarkable moment came where I witnessed something that I had experienced before but always as it applied to me because it was about me this time I was out of the picture completely and I witnessed it again now which really raised my eyebrows. It was that fact that what I was seeing was exactly the same as what I saw before but now in a different context about a different person and none of it had to do with me.... if I was unsure before I was absolutely sure now that what I was seeing had to do more with an inability or dysfunction. .. no intention whatsoever on her part.
This was almost identical to what I experienced at the end.... where she had downloaded everything wrong with me in a two hour. Repeating it over and over many times or I begged her to stop. hearing how horrible you are for 2 hours I think might be unbearable for for anyone for that long a Time. but now here I am listening to her again and in the same way repeating the same thing over and over to the point I said the same thing to her " you know that you just said that to me and now you're saying it to me again as if I didn't hear it... I heard you the first time, you don't need to repeat it." do you think she's stopped? Absolutely not.... it was becoming really annoying... but that's but that's it. It was annoying... and eventually she she did stop but not until she had expressed all those emotions verbally straight out of the stream-of-consciousness going on in her head I was living it hearing it.... every word. It appears now to me.... and I am basing this on her childhood.... she she was conditioned and programmed to do this... and instead of being annoyed I listened to the pattern happen over and over and it was exactly the same every time she said. Her ability to contain that and hold that in is simply not there at the same time I believe it served a purpose at one point in time to be the squeaky wheel or no one would pay attention to her.. that is what I seeing now and I think I'm correct and what I'm seeing. again what I'm saying is that this is a dysfunction compared to anyone else including myself. In respect to my childhood challenge it was the opposite that worked. putting that s*** in a can and putting a lid on it... was the best course of action in my household. despite my ADHD I learned to do that out of survival and it worked as it's as real as the situation required it. In respect to D... her situation was different. her situation demanded a different set of skills and those are the skills she learned almost opposition to the ones that I learned when confronted with the identical situation. I thought of this and even told her at one time that she would never have survived behaving like she did in my household but then again what I did probably would not have served me in the least in her situation at best. having compassion and empathy is simply understanding or knowing what you need to have compassion for to identify it correctly. If you cannot identify what it is why you need to do it, and then know the right way to do it specific to that person not based on you and what you would need specifically.... one might think that then it's not an inability or a lack of capacity it's simply being able to identify when and what that person needs. I can't put myself in her shoes and know what her childhood challenges and experiences were I didn't have them... mine was completely different in fact nothing like what she experienced.... how can you put yourself in someone else's shoes if you've never had that experience before in my mind you can't. not exactly and not specifically... that does make empathy somewhat difficult if you've never had that experience before. and just to remind everybody reading this.... people with ADHD experience the same situations and see the same things differently than other people which means their experience, and how they experience things is most likely different than you. and the same thing goes the other way.... it's why I looking for common ground or things in common it's really the only logical choice. from there knowing that it's it's different that means you cannot use yourself or anything you might assume based on you because 9 times out of 10 wrong. one thing that I successfully was able to get D to see really just this weekend.... was that so much that she assumes about me is incorrect or a misinterpretation based on what it looks like not what it is. I was able to tell her that that was probably the most frustrating thing that you have to deal with with the public at Large. no one really knows about ADHD unless they have to and for someone who doesn't have it.... and for someone who doesn't have it there's really no need to know or really care all that much it's just not something that is pertinent to them so why would they? the answer is they don't..... however on the flip side of that being only five out of a hundred people in a room full of people.... it's the five people who need to understand the other 95 who tend to see and think things more commonly the same or similar ... the burden of proof lies on me to figure that out not everybody else.... except for my intimate partner. it's the one person that needs to know needs to spend the time and needs to understand or they will not understand me or know what to do and be able to interpret my behaviour accurate accurately and not misinterpreted as something else. I don't expect the rest of the world to care only one person do I have that expectation of but that comes with the same frustration as everybody else... but if you want to know what love is to me... that's a good place to start.
what came from this was a realization if at least not for the rest of the world just for me. it told her that she cannot assume that I either understand her or know what she's thinking or feeling and she has to share a certain amount of information in things I cannot know in essence.... I cannot know what it's like not to have ADHD in the same way no one who doesn't have it cannot know what experience is either the only way to know is not to assume that you do and try to find some other common ground that you do share .... that is common to everyone ADHD or not. one moment for example where she was referring to a problem as she saw it but brought up an example that was unrelated to what she was talking about. in this one example I point it out to her in the years that we've been together I only did that once which is true? how can one time doing anything on the steak error how can one time doing anything .....one mistake or as I thought.... a one-time occurrence that never happened again constitute a problem and why was she was limping that in with something else where it simply didn't apply and didn't belong? the answer is easy she was assuming and misinterpreting what she saw as being the same as those other things and it wasn't up to me in that moment to correct that or change her mind. I could easily Let It Go and move past that. That will happen in time wheather with her or anyone else. I'm not going to fix that problem ever really... all I can do is keep these things in mind and deal with it as I can the same with everybody else. I have those skills if I choose to use them. the situation did not call for that and it wasn't necessary at all. and in the same way I allowed her to come to me and tell me how she really felt. by doing just that much and allowing her to do it allowed her to time to think about it and then later and then actually opened up and told me what she felt. doing what I did was the proof that she needed in order to do that. I had to be the one to do it first before she could. but once I did that I got what I wanted. as soon as she offered the information that I needed on her own in her own time I was able to use that to correct a number of misconceptions she had because now she was listening. it took me to listen first .... or she simply could not do it. I was seeing that as a dysfunction and an inability she has.... and simply not knowing how. As soon as I saw that way it changed my perspective and also changed what I said and what I did about it which in my mind was a complete success..... where before we never made it that far into the conversation not even one time... it was a remarkable change and difference.
and to use something that's been said here in this thread as an example of this just to point this out for no other reason...... the idea of seeing somebody with ADHD presenting them with a program and the things that they're supposed to do in order to counter the ADHD symptoms... and then to say you see them do it but then they stopped or it's not working because you're not seeing the results that you want and expect...... and namely as the comment referred, that enough time had gone by that the person saying it said that they should see something or some chains and their opinion.... based on the time that had gone by.
based on everything that I just said.... how could you know? That is how could you know if it's working or not you're not that person and you don't have ADHD?
I'll leave it right there because I think this is a major major source of conflict in communication. is this normal and is this what one would expect a non-adhd person to do or for that matter anyone to? The answer is yes. but you're not dealing with someone who is like you you're dealing with one of five people in a room of 100.... what you thinkin feel or any opinion on the matter we'll just perpetuate more of the same if you can't change what you're doing for that person and what they need.... not so much and not as important in this case in respect to what you need. Compassion works both ways or it doesn't work at all... if you're doing it the way you need and the way it works for you chances are you're going to be wrong more often than not ....I think that's more of the problem .... is simply identifying what it is and then knowing what to do and how. And what I found is that applies to even me having ADHD when dealing with somebody else in denial. You cannot miss something you don't have and you cannot know what that is until you have it .....I think that's common ground that everyone can understand.
I have more to say about all the things that have gone on since I last was here but I'll save that for a different time.... more importantly to this thread I just wanted to share what I learned more than anything else.
J
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Could be something more
Submitted by TanyaD on
Im glad you are out of your relationship PoisonIvy. Congratulations to that huge transition. I posted on the Hero conversation, and I expressed the notion of my ex having addition undiagnosed issues. Why? Because I was easily forgotten in my marriage too. On top of that relatable issue, I was also hurt, and often surprised by the lack of concern my partner had for my family, pets or friends who were sick, in surgery, or celebrating anything for that matter. Even as our divorce proceedings go on, if I see my ex, zero inquiry of my life or loved ones, but I'm supposed to hear about my Mother in law who's been ill for the last ten years. Cruel and unusual is my best choice of words. Now that Im the ex, I've become enemy number one, and the cause for all my ex's failures. Apparently I was the one that ended our marriage even though my ex abandoned me. Apparently at some point I asked my spouse to leave, because abandoner is too difficult of a truth to accept, and it doesn't victimize her. Needless to say, I look forward to being in your shoes. I may never understand the "Why" or how I could fall in love and dedicate my life to someone soooooo unavailable, and deeply cruel, but I'll simply be relieved to just not be married to such a person. I'm looking forward to moving on......alone.