Hello,
How have others overcome the ADHD spouse feeling like the non-ADHD spouse is putting them on probation? My ADHD wife keeps saying it feels like that, which makes me feel horrible, but I'm also exhausted with the clutter, forgetfullness, lack of responsibility and mistakes (many that cost us financially). We've been married 17 years and have two sons ages 14 and 16. It kills me to think of breaking up the family over forgetfullness or household clutter. I feel my kids will blame me.
Last week she and I had a great discussion about how her ADHD is affecting me. She seemed uncharacteristically receptive...until yesterday. We were actually listening to Melissa's book and discussing some stuff in it, when it started to sink in for her how serious this was. It's been horrible since then. She's willing to see a counselor, but she said she can't keep living feeling like she's on probation, that I want to fix her and that one more mistake might end it. I agreed with her that it's not fair for her to have to live like that. Feeling pretty hopeless.
Part of it is how you perceive it
Submitted by smd1409 on
‘Horrible since then’ how? Your wife going on random outbursts, always feeling down, blaming everything on everyone and/or her ADHD symptoms getting a lot worse? Any of these familiar or am I on the wrong track?
Not to sound intrusive but I think I might know what is going on with her and what might help if I have more of an idea by what you mean when you say horrible.
Well, things got a bit better
Submitted by Steve04 on
Well, things got a bit better Tuesday after she had some time to process the idea that if the clutter doesn’t improve we may not be able to make it work
The despair that our marriage may be over, not talking to each other while co-existing in the same space was what felt horrible. She’s rebounded and seems committed to change again, so I’m more hopeful today. Thank you for the reply and your thoughts. It’s always helpful hearing an outside perspective.
Awareness.....Going to tell you what I must do myself....
Submitted by c ur self on
Steve, Try to not get to high or to low yourself, when it comes to her actions concerning things like clutter etc...If she is anything like my spouse she will give an honest effort at times like your spouse is doing now....And it may last a few days or even a few months (Once when she realized I truly was ready to move on), but the way her mind works, it's truly almost impossible for her to maintain good habits in this area....
Zebra and the strips you know?....I walked in the house tonight from a ball game (had left dishes done and counters clean) and she was gone to a ladies night at the church...So when I walked in she had made a sandwich...Mayo, half of a tomatoes, knives, paper towels etc etc...all scattered all over the counter....came in the living room and where she ate was her plate and a 1/3 of a bottle of water w/ no top....That's just the way she lives most of the time....Half circles....Most everything she starts, when she gets to the point where she her food is ready, or she is dressed, or she wants to do something else....She just STOPS...Everything stops....If I just ignore it long enough, just work around it, cook and wash my stuff and ignore hers, she will eventually clean it up...
You and I cannot place a bunch of expectations on them to be or think like we do....We might as well leave now if that's the goal....They never will....Can they do better...Yes...But they will have to care, and recognize it....You and I will ALWAYS have to learn to be quiet and patient....
That is just a fact....
C
This is huge here also.....
Submitted by c ur self on
My wife of 10 years is probably much like yours...She feels beat down by me much of the time, just for pointing out her messy hoarding life style....I've tried to ignore much it for the most part...But it is difficult to watch her spend her time at home, mostly on social media, telephone or locked onto a tv screen....She will give some effort at times, if my comments are nice and I don't do the broken record thing...
I decided a while back much of the fault was mine and I had to clean that part up...It's not my place to carry her (do most all the cleaning, etc..) But it's also not my place to constantly point out her laziness in the area's of house cleaning and her husband's needs....The only thing left is to shut up and do it...Or leave....
But you do bring up a very pertinent dynamic in marriage's (especially many add's and non's).....
So many people who live like our wives (even if accompanied by shame, which she did and still does) make it OK alone...But drop them in a marriage w/ someone who wants to have normal cleaning and organization and you get strained emotions among other things....We or They do not do well together.....To much intrusiveness.....Wise boundaries can help......
Blessings friend....In the same shoes here.....
C
Thank you for the reply, much
Submitted by Steve04 on
Thank you for the reply, much of what you said resonates!
You don't. Whether it's the
Submitted by Jon on
You don't. Whether it's the sense that you are always on probation, constantly waiting for the hammer to fall, having to deal with seemingly forever moving goalposts, or scrambling to the top of one sand dune only to see sand dunes stretching for as far as the eye can see. That is in many ways just life detached from the comfort of being 'normal'. I don't know how you ever feel comfortable in that headspace. I know I can't/don't. I just expect it and keep the world at arms length. But it's perhaps worth understanding that it's not only you placing your spouse on probation and just as likely that there was a moment of crushing realization for your spouse that their flaws were fully visible to you after all and that you are the same in that regard as everybody else. I know I have always gone into a relationship, hoping and wishing that I could keep my defects to myself and not be reveled as a broken, distant, disconnected and disappointing, but alas, it's only a matter of time till the mask slips and it all comes clear. Any person holds onto a kernel of themselves, an understanding of who they are,what is important to them and what they represent. I think this gets torn to pieces by ADHD. At some point, about the point that you started realizing that some things were not quite right, likely your spouse realized that their cover was blown. At about that point I can imagine your halo lost a lot of it's gleam, the pedestal you had been put on disappeared and the whole thing came crashing down to earth. It's a difficult thing trusting people, the more they know about your most inner secrets the more vulnerable you are, so the greater the danger and the more you have to be on constant lookout that your fragile self constructed image of self doesn't come under attack. And the best form of defense is ALWAYS offense.
I know it sounds trite, but it has to be a case of carefully choosing your battles, some are simply not worth the attrition rate. Her memory will always be what it is, and her spatial organizational awareness will always be the same. Blind people very very rarely have a spontaneous remission and in a similar way I am NEVER going to relate to time or space in the same structured way as people without ADHD, but I AM going to relate to things in life in ways that those of you without ADHD NEVER will. Having a world so eager to define you so often can leave you feeling like no one.
And I am afraid to say you are probably right that your kids will blame you. Teenagers cannot grasp the breadth and significance of such decisions and the personal struggle you would go through to arrive at that point. All you could possibly do is talk, talk , talk and if it does all fall apart, it's the slings and arrows you throw in pain on the way out the door that cut the deepest, not the fact that you separate. They come to understand that. I know, because mine do. But it wasn't easy and I lost them for 4 years or so.
Trying to understand
Submitted by jennalemone on
"I am NEVER going to relate to time or space in the same structured way as people without ADHD, but I AM going to relate to things in life in ways that those of you without ADHD NEVER will."
When a person with ADD/ADHD is in a relationship (or in a family) with another who has ADD or ADHD, is it easier to relate and have a relationship/communication with? Do you recognize someone in the family with ADD and is there a stronger bond/connection? I guess I ask because when I look at H's family, there may be a few who also have sine ADD ADHD tendencies...never really thought about it before. H does not discuss with me relationships with his family other than to say this one or that one bugs him. And after we spend time with them, he seems to take out his frustrations with them on to me. You say that someone with ADHD relates to things in life like someone without ADHD never will, could you describe this a little further? How do 2 people both with ADD/ADHD relate to life or with each other in a way that us muggles do not understand? Or..what would it look like if two people who got along well, both with ADD/ADHD, would partner?
To Jon
Submitted by phatmama on
Jon, I just read this post for the first time, even though this is a somewhat dated thread and wanted to tell you how very poignant I found your rendering of the soul of the struggling ADD'er. I feel that this speaks more eloquently to the inner life of those with this crushing disability than almost anything else I have ever read. As you described the relationship cycle, the hope, the masking, then the exposure of vulnerability and "unmasking" with the attendant shame as the relationship progresses--I wanted to cry. This is exactly the pattern between my husband and I. His ADHD gifts made him seem absolutely spectacular to me. I had never met anyone like him. I used to jokingly say " "R" is a god". I can only imagine how he feels being demoted over the past 21 years from "god" to the village idiot in my eyes. I don't think of him that way, but I know that I often treat him as though I do and have seen his pain and shame expressed as rage, distancing, evasiveness, withdrawal, intense explosive anger--the "offense" you referenced above. This cycle has been painful and degrading for both of us, and it is nothing short of a miracle that our core bond is still intact, even if it is on life support at times. Because I love him and have a deep attachment to him come what may, I am still quite empathetic to him, and your post left me feeling deep pain FOR HIM. He is very gifted, very proud, and very competent when he is in the zone and his own flow--other times, he is nearly useless and I realize how humiliating that dichotomy is for him to live with. I wish you well and want to thank you deeply for sharing what you did in the above post. That kind of openness is what makes true understanding across the "divide" possible between those who have ADHD and those trying to live with the fallout. Blessings to you.
Nope. Chaos and chaos
Submitted by Jon on
Nope. Chaos and chaos unfortunately don’t tend to result in peace, order and harmony. I do however recognize the full gamut of symptoms/behaviors across all of my 4 children, both the 2 older boys and my 2 younger girls. They *all* have elements of ADHD that are reasonably clear to me, though luckily for them that none of them seem to have been dealt the full suite of issues I was blessed with. This further convinces me that ADHD sits on a spectrum in a similar way to Autism and really describes a list of symptoms that may have diverse underlying causes. I get increasingly skeptical the older I get that there is any one cause for this condition and that as much as anything it’s a social disease born from an increasingly narrow definition of 'normal'.
So yes, we ADD people don’t look at the world the same way. Many things that are simply part of the everyday for you may not be for us. For instance, my entire concept of time is messed up. Put simply I really struggle to make sense of it. Its goes faster than I expect, I lose complete track of it, I can’t seem to look into the future beyond the next 5 minutes and tend to think that what is now is forever. This causes me no end of grief in my personal life.
I am also not driven by a sense of achievement but by an activity that is in itself intense, completing it is either a real relief or a case of meh, this means I tend to put more emphasis on doing a task itself and the quality of that, rather than trying to get it done as fast as possible to get the doggie treat at the end.
I also tend to think about ways to solve problems or issues that may not be constrained by convention or standards that are seen as ‘normal’. I am fortunate in that I am able to consume vast amounts of complex information and visualize it simply within my own head. All those fragments of incomplete information frequently come together in moments of intuition when faced with something that might need to be solved. This is particualy apparent to me when I'm under pressure to solve something and somehow the solution just seems to pop into my head out of nowhere. In my job I’ve solved many issues by disregarding the norms and looking at the issue unconstrained by what has always been done. To me, many times complexity seems simple and often with leaps of understanding that are made in large intuitive leaps. I’m not smarter than many of my colleagues, it’s just that I process information in an entirely different way.
My partner has suggested to me that perhaps I would have been better off with an ADHD mate. I tend to think that this would just spell chaos and madness. It might be fun for about 2 weeks but the fact is, we live in an ordered society so if you wish to live and exist within the bounds of that society, by and large we need to conform or at least fake it well enough to get away with it.
Interesting Jon....
Submitted by c ur self on
You have a wonderful way of putting it out there in such a real and truthful way....It's taken me years to learn much of this about my spouse....Just because she has always had a difficult time of speaking openly about the way her mind works....(I know much of that is my own fault)...But it is nice to here someone who can reference this type mind activity so clearly....
She does and thinks so much like you state here...She may take a little longer to do certain things (lab tests) on her job...But she is known for being accurate with her work....She takes great pride in that....
I'm just laughing about you having someone with her mind as a spouse....Not that you couldn't make it work mind you.... but, you would definitely increase your horizons if you met those challenges....
C
Swim coach
Submitted by jennalemone on
Thanks, Jon, for keeping writing so that many of us can learn and not lash out blindly at what we see as "unlove". I always learn so much when you write from your heart. I have a thought, if you could respond, about what worked for you and your swim coach. What was it in concrete actions/events that urged you and motivated you and kept your focus? It may have been the water or the other guys but also something about the coach's attitude and process that held your ego/presence for a long term and has you remembering super functioning actiity. I know of others who say they had a football coach or a music teacher etc. who were saviors in their learning years. Can you put into words what exactly was the magic that happened when you were a part of a swim team? I ask because it might be helpful for us trying to coach our spouses.
chaos and chaos response/jon
Submitted by phatmama on
Ok, so you and my husband were separated at birth--lol. Literally everything you said about yourself above could be said of my husband. He has conceptualized and invented things that are amazing. He showed me his drawings once of something he was working on that involved both artistic renderings as well as pages of mathematical formulas and I just looked at that and thought to myself: "I am married to freaking DaVinci". His mind is absolutely fascinating, but he has not remembered once in five years in our home to set out the garbage on Sunday night. Also, you are completely right in your assessment of the chaos of having a spouse with ADHD. I am higher functioning at home by a long shot and he is higher functioning at work (because of his hyperfocus capacity) but between us, there are multiple struggles including a home that is always a little messy, bills that are often late, home repair projects that simply stall out when they are half done, lost permission slips, forgotten dentist/doctor/eye appointments,clutter, cars that are backlogged for repair or routine maintenance. ( I was sideswiped and need a drivers side mirror on my car and my husband has intended to order one for three months now. Since it is still attached, albeit cracked all to hell, it hasn't really grabbed his attention as a crisis yet). If you are married to a neurotypical, you probably have life that functions far more smoothly as a result. In our home, my husband and our 3 ADHD children lean heavily on me to keep things running smoothly and I do, but not without effort, as it is a challenge to me to manage so many people with executive function disabilities when I am not exactly the sharpest knife in that drawer either.
You can't fix what you don't own.
Submitted by Will It Get Better on
You can't fix what you don't own. SHE needs to accept her ADHD (and any comorbidities) and actively and consistently work to manage BOTH the conditions and their symptoms. There is nothing easy about it. Complaints about 'probation' and 'Stop trying to fix me!' are deflections from acknowledging her conditions and their symptoms that ARE real and directly affect her marriage and family adversely. She doesn't have to '... live like that' but without managing her conditions she always will. It is not 'fair' that she has ADHD but, pity party aside, what does SHE intend to do about it?
Maybe, or maybe it’s an act
Submitted by Jon on
Maybe, or maybe it’s an act of self-defense. A mechanism to hold onto some semblance of self-identity when everyone all around is seemingly determined to strip it away and to remake you in their image.
If you have spent a lifetime crawling on your belly over broken glass with every person you get to know thinking they are entitled to point out where you are a freak or have failed to measure up to their lofty expectations then chances are what might be seen as ‘defiance’ could just that person trying to maintaining a sense of self determination. Maybe there are good numbers of we ADHD folk that do live in denial about that which affects us, though it’s hard to imagine remaining in denial when most every day involves being turned inside.
For example, I am fully aware of my condition, I don’t live in denial and can see as clear as day the impact, but at the same time I don’t want to be drugged. I don’t want to wake up every day and feel I need to medicate myself to fit into some pre conceived mold as defined by a group of people who judging by the amount of global dysfunction don’t seem to have very much of their own crap together. Looked at this way perhaps it’s you lot need to take medication rather than us? How do we even know that this condition isn’t an adaption and that over the longer term it will be those WITHOUT ADD that are treated as defective? All I know is that given the choice to be what I am, and what passes for ‘normal’ I am sticking with what I have, I have taken a good hard look at you lot and well in my assessment, and no offence but really it’s not all that. So therefore to me often it’s a conscious decision to reject being molded by someone else’s expectations, rather than some kneejerk defiance or denial, perhaps the OP feels similar?
That is your choice
Submitted by adhd32 on
I cannot recall if you are in a relationship but if you are, how's it going? I understand your not wanting drugs but are you actively working on managing your symptoms? Or is your statement saying you don't need help and tough luck to anyone who enters you life if they can't deal with a one sided friendship?
Jon
Submitted by c ur self on
It is so wrong to judge (and impossible to do) people who have "ticks" as to what is best for them....I know people on a personal level that deals w/ add & adhd....Some are medicated some or not....Some function fine un-medicated, some can't hold a job w/o adderall or something to help them focus....When I talk about the effects of a partner who has add and isn't fit to be in relationship...I am talking about the one's who live in denial of their actions....That really don't have much to do w/ their attention disorder....That has ever thing to do with not caring to do what you say you do (look inside them selves)....
Many do not live w/ any concern, for the realities of their tendencies in life...They will abuse you, ignore you, lie to you, they will dump on you....And justify it... With a bad attitude to boot....This is all about choices!..And it is spawned from a black selfish heart, that is screaming; "I'm the only one that matters!!!".....There is only one medication for that, and it don't come in a pill bottle....
c
Indeed I am, and while it
Submitted by Jon on
Indeed I am, and while it does have its moments, it’s been more than a decade and we still share a cup of tea every morning and thus far mine has not contained any arsenic, so I’m taking that as positive.
In my view ‘managing symptoms’ would be putting the cart before the horse in a LOT of ways. I am actively working on many things, most importantly for me is separating what are actual consequences of embedded neurology, and what is the result of a life time of maladaptive coping techniques. This is important, because I don’t’ see this as a ‘disease’ and I also don’t see the way I am as a cluster of ‘symptoms’ to that disease. Such is our need to medicalize everything that it won’t be too long before *everyone* is put on the spectrum.
That said, I know as much as anyone the difficulties encountered, the struggles and the heartache, but when I look at my life objectively, what I realize is that many MANY of the things that cause such difficulty are not because my brain doesn’t work the same as yours, but because we ADHD people often simply didn’t fit neatly into any of the categories modern society uses to sort and manage their population. Less than 50 years ago ADHD didn’t exist because its consequences were insufficiently damaging or inconvenient to be noticed, why? Were people less likely to be effected by ADHD? Was the incidence less? OR was it simply that society was less rigidly stratified and expectations of persons every life detail were far less prescribed so that nobody noticed? Perhaps it’s just that as a society we had a far greater tolerance of diversity when it came to an individual’s personality? These days we seem to have defined what is and is not ‘normal’ in increasingly narrow terms, I am not convinced that this is a positive development.
The reason this is important is that if we simply treat ADHD as some sort of ‘disease’, then basically you are handing over a diagnosis for a life time, and a person that was previously just an individual is now the lucky owner of their very own illness. Perhaps sometimes it helps that person to have a label, perhaps it helps to finally have a reason everything seems different, and perhaps it does help to be able to take a pill and be welcomed with open arms to normal land. But who says that is where we should all be at anyway?
What I would like to see is an entirely different conversation going on, so that rather than categorization, simplification and broad sweeping characterizations that deny the very underlying existence of the individual once they are gifted the ADHD label for a lifetime. It seems to me that MANY of the times a diagnosis is arrived at in a state of desperation, which is understandable but tends to result in an entirely negative perception of the many personality traits that we ADHD types seem to share at least to some degree. So when I read a book on ADD, I read that my entire life is apparently to be viewed through the lens of ADHD. I don’t own these traits. My ‘disease’ does and I have been for all this time an unwitting actor simply expressing my ‘symptoms’ when I just thought I was trying to make it through just like everyone else. I pretty much reject this worldview.
One simple example is the fact that the ‘Anger and Frustration’ section of the forum get MUCH greater levels of traffic than any other section. This DESPITE research evidence that indicates that catharsis and letting off steam actually serve to prolong and promote anger rather than help to ‘get it all out’, SO the most trafficked forum doesn’t really help those seeking an outlet for their frustration and anger, and it results in a whole lot of vitriolic hate directed at a ‘condition’, elements of which occupy 80% of my worldview.
I am however at times a little like you have stated in your last paragraph, truth compels me to say. i.e. not so desperate for approval that I need to crawl through broken glass to get it. I make and keep as many friends as I need really but tend not to bend over backwards apologizing for who I am in order to get them. Most of the time, the truth be told, so constrained by convention and expectations are many that I find the average ‘normy’ about as interesting as watching grass grow. You poor unfortunate dullards ;)
Fifty years ago there were
Submitted by SweetandSour on
Fifty years ago there were other labels: bad seed, incorrigible, posessed of the devil, lay-about, lazy, liar, drunk, good for nothing - and hyperactive or oppositional or day-dreamy kids were beaten and that was considered appropriate and the right thing to do. We may see through a glass darkly now, but at least we can see at all.
ADHD isn't a new disease
Submitted by adhd32 on
ADHD isn't a new disease, or even a disease for that matter. There were always dreamy and ants-in-the-pants kids. When I was growing up in the 60s and 70s corporal punishment was an accepted form of punishment at home and in school. Many of the fidgety kids who shouted out in the classroom were treated to a smack with the ruler. The dreamy kids who forgot their homework and stared out the window watching the birds also got a "reminder". It was always the same kids sent to the office, sent to the corner, or had their desk moved to the hall. We now know that they probably had some type of attention deficit but back then their behavior was viewed as a character flaw. So instead of being labeled as ADHD (because it wasn't even a thing) these kids were labeled disruptive, lazy, class clown and parents were mainly blamed for lack of proper home training. Times were different back then . There was no technology to get hooked into and no college was necessary for one to find a good job that could properly support a family. There were manufacturing and assembly jobs as well as many manual jobs where someone with a lack of focus could still perform well because the jobs were physical and didn't require a good memory.
Roles at home were clearly defined. There was no man vacuuming or cooking or caring for children. There was no reminding or begging for someone to do something that wasn't their role. Women, for the most part, were home and had the time for chores and childcare. Back then ADD didn't have as much of an impact on the family because ADDer could still successfully work at a skill level they could handle and they were not expected to complete tasks around the home on a day to day basis. There were less opportunities for overspending and impulse spending because credit cards were not a thing. Often the wife was handling the finances, dad just worked and mom did the rest, stretching the finances to pay the bills.
The world has changed and ADD has risen to the spotlight because life is no longer as simple as it was. Family life now is so complicated and the ADD mind is not able to keep up with all the layers of day to day life. The work environment has also changed, now requiring unwavering focus and productivity. The behaviors of ADD were less of a problem years ago because there was a place for everyone and their abilities, and defined roles at home were more ADD friendly.
This a wonderful post (IMO) Jon...
Submitted by c ur self on
There are some things here you make quiet clear about your thinking and feelings....Knowing ourselves is good, no matter who agree's or disagrees....It's obvious you are very intelligent, and it's also obvious you carry offense concerning the broad brush with which adhd is painted by many...(Even though I do that at times, I'm agreeing with you, I shouldn't)....
Why anger and frustration??....I will tell you why, because of the pain of trying to live with a spouse who is non-caring, lazy or abusive...IF a person's life is so intrusive that they can never be counted on in any kind consistency of responsible living, then the product produced in trying to co-exist with them will always be dysfunctional and full of boundaries....But this statement isn't about add/adhd or any label...It's about a person who refuses to Care about others....
c
Yes I definitely do understand
Submitted by Jon on
Yes I definitely do understand the source of the anger and frustration believe me, and it is definitely something I personally have experienced a great deal, both coming from me, and directed at me from others. Anger I suppose is just a manifestation of frustration so that they go hand in hand and although it is entirely normal and understandable, I guess what I am getting at, is that it just doesn’t help and is only likely to make things far worse. It is an entirely destructive emotional state that produces nothing of worth; nothing good ever comes of it. I say that as a person who has battled their entire life with frustration, anger and rage.
Never once have any of them produced a single thing of benefit. I have used it as a motivator for change, but I see that as akin to placing a live hand grenade in the middle of the table as a mechanism for rearranging the kitchen; it may work but good luck making any of the shattered pieces function as a unit ever again and in every case a better approach could have been found if I had been able to let go of all the rage and anger.
You make the same point I was getting at, some behaviors are just poor behavior and ADHD is simply along for the ride. Sometimes the ADHD traits result in an inclination for certain common events and occurrences to occur, for instance, procrastination, forgetfulness, and frustration and the associated struggles with relationships
I think it’s important to understand that many of our behavioral elements are adaptive i.e. they are the result of a person developing into a personality that behaves in certain way largely because of learned responses to perceived events and them self-rationalizing how they fit into those etc. And because every person is unique and carries with them into adulthood an individual childhood experience, our adaptive behaviors are shaped by our experiences.
So I may meet some other person that I have nothing in common with except my ADHD, and the chances are that if we were to discuss in detail our lives, thoughts etc, that we would discover a lot of commonality in the way our brains work. It doesn't’t mean I share any affinity with that person, and it doesn't’t mean that I wouldn't’t look at their poor behavior and feel any more inclined to justify it. It just means I can relate to the root cause of where it originated and I think that is incredibly important in terms of building an empathic understanding of how, where and why this condition adhd causes so much despair and destruction.
So for instance, my daughter has among other things a rather challenging case of autism, there are occasions where she will obsessively talk, request, or demand one particular thing, it may be completely unobtainable. So last week it was 10pm and she wanted me to get her flute from the shop because she was fixated on particular piece of flute music. No amount of reasoning would stop her from throwing an almighty meltdown, and I don’t know if you have ever seen an autistic meltdown but it’s on a whole other level and can carry on for hours unabated and without any success in soothing them. Now I get that it is exhausting, and frustrating and yes after 2 hours when it’s midnight and your child is banging their head on the wall, biting themselves so hard they bleed (and me when I try to sooth her ) that frustration can even turn into anger, because *that* is what physical and emotional exhaustion do to a person.
However, if in my exhaustion I find myself expressing that frustration or anger, instead of it resolving anything it just steps it up a notch, and causes a LOT more angst and prolongs the meltdown.
Again, in this instance the expression of anger and frustration are NOT cathartic, they just exacerbate the situation. So the question is, if the exhaustion and frustration build up, when is it a useful, appropriate and productive time to express it?
I would say *never* is the answer. It is always destructive. Stay calm and walk away.
In just the same way that me expressing my feelings of frustration or despair or anger not only doesn't’t help me to feel better, neither does my daughter understand, empathize or relate because she simply lacks the emotion faculties to do so. All that occurs is that the person she sees as her stability and consistency in an otherwise alien world has lost control. All that leads to is a greater sense of abandonment, isolation and fear and all the resulting behavior that comes from that.
I would argue (as a generalization) that many ADHD people are not so different. We also don’t have internal stability or a way of maintaining order, our perceptions of time and space are frequently entirely different than that of others, our working memory is compromised, our mood control and sensitivity to rejection are much different.
No amount of castigation, rage, anger, frustration, cajoling, begging or pleading is going to change that. It is what it is. All anger does is consume all before it.
So when I read posts of white hot frustration and anger, while I completely understand where it is coming from, I can’t help feel that what I am seeing, far from it helping an obviously distressed person in their situation or their other half is that it is in itself part of the underlying problem.
None of this means of course that either me or my partner are immune to the inevitable frustration (so not), however when I detect that my partner is making value judgment of my failure, or is keeping score or castigates me out of frustration then I emotionally put as many miles between myself and her so that I don’t have to hear it all again. I literally want to spend as little time with her as I can because it makes me feel like a worthless human being.
A state you all might have seen many times in your respective partners as a lack of presence. Well guess what? MOST of the time it’s reactive and is a response to unpleasant stimulus of some kind, whether that be judgment or whatever.
Over many years I have relentlessly tried every approach at expressing to my partner who I am, how I think about the world and how I feel. I have done this in my hope that she may understand some of the mental processes that occur, because she is one of the major stakeholders. After more than a decade of real turbulence, it is only in recent times that I can see that this is starting to pay dividends. It’s a long road that is for sure.
Anyway… what started out as short post has turned into ‘war and peace’! Apols for the wordiness!
That's OK, I loved it....
Submitted by c ur self on
I so agree w/ you, absolutely; anger and frustration has never benefited me, my wife, or our family and relationships....I like you, have used it wrongly to point out unacceptable behaviors, when calmly walking away does 10 times more good....I want the best for my wife, the very best...She has so many great points....And she loves me, and cares what I think...But she is an adult who makes choices that I wouldn't make and she is driven by a mind that I don't live in....I have to respect that...At the end of the day, I know this one thing for sure...If for some reason we don't make it, it want be any anger involved in the parting...Not by me anyway.....
I told my wife recently w/ tears in my eyes (after one of our emotional talks) that if we hadn't of ever married, I feel like we would have been best friends....She is an Awesome Mother, because she works at it....She is an awesome friend because she works at it, it matters...She is an awesome Mimi to our grand's, because it matters, she works at it....
But she hasn't never really made up her mind to work at being a wife....The things she loves enough to work at, (matters of the heart) she does well...
c
Sounds like your wife is very lucky!
Submitted by Jon on
Well all I can say is that that in all likelihood it sounds like you have a better chance of keeping it all together and making it work than do most in our situation. It's actually really good to hear this!
To be honest, this is only possible when we are able to maintain positive thoughts about our partners and the things they bring to our lives. When you are in a frame of mind when all you can do is think negatively about the person you are spending your life with then short of having a life reversing revelation, things are pretty well screwed IMHO. I also know personally that when things are not going well I reorganize my thoughts so that the person I adored only a few short weeks ago becomes a monster, most likely because it's far easier to dismiss criticism from a person you have characterized as a monster than it is to take it on board from a person you adore. One feels like rejection, the other is simply me avoiding an unpleasant person/experience. We ADHD people have an *incredibly* finely tuned antenna for picking up criticism and rejection. Many of us can see and feel it in people often before they are even aware of it themselves. This is an "extra" sense forged by a life time of having to be hyper vigilant, which I have always found ironic given how bad many of us are picking up on social cues. My reaction when such alarms go off is to detach and disengage and to play emotionally dead so as to be inaccessible for criticism. My partners reaction to this is inevitably frustration which only exacerbates the issue. It's only when we take a step back and try to pull apart what is really going on that we seem able to step back from the ramparts and actually work as a team.
Yes, Yes, and Yes....
Submitted by c ur self on
(I also know personally that when things are not going well I reorganize my thoughts so that the person I adored only a few short weeks ago becomes a monster, most likely because it's far easier to dismiss criticism from a person you have characterized as a monster than it is to take it on board from a person you adore.)
Yes Jon it's heart protection from the pain...
Your post is full of truths w/ very deep bottoms...We are all different, we all have different circumstances....But if we can learn how to end the cycle you stated above (Angel to Monster) we can be successful in our relationships for the most part....But, so many don't want to pay the price to discipline themselves to not want or expect want isn't there.....Which is only wisdom....When tough love and wisdom are interjected, instead of battling for my rights...Love can persevere....
Simple example related to us....If we decide to travel (vacation or family visit)...my mind views this completely different in all phases (timeliness in departing, Stops, how long to stay, what to do while we are there, attention to one another while there (marital sharing) vs hyper focus on a "thing," doing our parts in spending;, just a few examples) than hers does....So the product usually isn't pretty...So in walks a boundary (I placed on myself, for us in regard to travel) that neither of us wanted, but was very much needed....If we can't preplan and both be in some what of an agreement, and respect the agreement, then I love her and myself enough to wipe out these money spending events that destroy our efforts at a peaceful life together.....This is just one example where there is a price to pay to avoid setting ourselves up for failure....And if the person who feels they must control and be in charge of the trip, and justify it, truly has a good heart toward there spouse, loneliness will teach them to share, and to put themselves in the other person's shoes....If they don't care, well no one can do anything about that, but at least you didn't waste money, and create more frustration for you both trying to force what isn't there... This works both ways of course....I can tell you now, after a few years of this boundary being in place, it's helping the light to come on, to a degree anyway....We are both learning.....
There are so many of these opportunities in life, if we are willing to be wise enough to just look deeper, then through love and discipline do the work to grow....
c
I appreciate 'Jon' and 'c ur self' insights
Submitted by Will It Get Better on
Jon and ‘c ur self’, I have read and reread your posts on this thread several times. Jon your extended posts have given me insight into ADHD and possible relation to my wife who has ADHD. When discussing ADHD, my wife and I never get to any real depth due to angry emotional tornados that supersede the initial topic so it is hard to feel we are ever making any real progress. I particularly respond to your mentions of how ADHDers ARE aware (often anyway) of things they did not do well and tend to remain emotionally distant when their spouse rehashes the latest incident. I need think of how to keep this in mind during my interactions with my wife so as to not have things ‘blow up’ when they do not need to. ‘c ur self’’s insight ‘The things she loves enough to work at, (matters of the heart) she does well...’ really hits home for me as there are so many things my wife is involved with wherein she enthusiastically succeeds in making people feel loved and cherished. Unfortunately for me, I am no longer one of those ‘things’. I thank you both for your posts.
if we hadn't of ever married,
Submitted by Jon on
if we hadn't of ever married, I feel like we would have been best friends”
CU I just wanted to make a tentative comment on this if I may. My partner on occasion will say something like this to me. And like you have expressed it, she obviously means it as a genuine statement of caring and affection. However, for me I don’t often perceive such comments in a positive way.
Over the years such statements have been around things like how we live together, what our priorities are etc. So she may make a statement about us living in separate houses or splitting our house into 2 so that we can exist in our own space, or she may make a comment about us not necessarily having to have normal monogamous relationship if it would mean less conflict etc. Or she may comment on how if she just got out of my way and let me parent and be my own way that I would reach some sort of equilibrium.
I know these statements are meant as her genuine reaching out. And what she is trying to say is that she loves a lot about me, but there are constant friction points around domestics, remembering things, organizing events and all that prosaic day to day that I am hopeless at. I know what she is saying is that it is frustrating that there is so much angst and discord over what really in the scheme of things is mostly pretty routine and mundane.
The problem I have with this is that it’s in direct conflict with my lifetime’s work of just trying to keep up my mask and try to be or at least try to resemble being normal. So, I perceive the comment as her saying “It’s obvious that you are unable to live with a partner in a functional way so it would be better if we didn't’” Or “Because you are so chaotic and untidy and disorganized I don’t find you attractive so I am happy to outsource intimacy” Or “It’s clear that you will never parent or conduct yourself domestically in a way that is appropriate to my expectations so it would be better if I wasn't around to see it”
If my partner said to me “if we hadn't of ever married, I feel like we would have been best friends” I would perceive this as her saying that she didn’t really see me as partner/husband/father material because I am clearly hopeless at that stuff and it’s never going to change BUT you are fun to be around and entertaining so long as I can walk away when I have had enough. I completely understand that this is not the intent and that the meaning has been lost in translation so please don’t perceive that as me being critical in any way. I am not.
This entire discussion I think does provide a perfect occasion to reference something that in my ADHD head is a big deal, and by reading many of the posts here is obviously a big deal with many of us but is very rarely heard about:
Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria (RSD)
https://www.additudemag.com/rejection-sensitive-dysphoria-and-adhd/
Just a short snip for those not inclined to read the linked article:
RSD is an extreme emotional sensitivity and emotional pain triggered by the perception — not necessarily the reality — that a person has been rejected, teased, or criticized by important people in their life.
When this emotional response is internalized, it can imitate a full, major mood disorder complete with suicidal ideation. The sudden change from feeling perfectly fine to feeling intensely sad that results from RSD is often misdiagnosed as rapid cycling BPD.
When this emotional response is externalized, it looks like an impressive, instantaneous rage at the person or situation responsible for causing the pain. 50% of people who are assigned court-mandated anger-management treatment have previously unrecognized ADHD.
This is me all over. Extreme over the top full blown darkest depths of despair complete with vivid looping mental imagery of various methods of suicide all in a heartbeat. Sometimes over things imperceptible to my partner. Sometimes over innocent comments like the one above: In her view she is releasing me to go and play the field without feeling I am cheating. To me she is saying she so disinterested in me that she wants to outsource the entire unpleasant experience.
I really think that often a great deal of the tumult frequently comes about from this extreme reaction to emotional events. Some of which we externalize via rage, anger etc. Some we internalize through destructive behaviors such a drinking, drugs, gambling, spending irresponsibly, or taking stupid risk etc.
I take a pretty high dose of Cymbalta for anxiety, which does help to numb the above extreme reactions, but only partly and it also numbs the up-side…..Oh yes it may not be immediately apparent but the extreme emotional response goes the other way too, we can be more elated and more happy that most. It’s just that rarely does the dysfunctional situations we live in allow for it. Can you say frustration? When I take stimulants I just don’t feel like me, like it’s an outer body experience. I can see the wheel, but I am not steering. I can’t stand living feeling so disembodied, what is the point?
Anyway,
I also wanted to say to “Will it get better” that the only way through the much toughened armor is through love. I know that sounds trite, but it’s the reality. Never ever will you get a cooperative reaction/discussion at the end of a ‘hostile’ approach even if it’s only perceived to be hostile. Pretty much immediately up goes the drawbridge, out come the pots of boiling oil and it’s into locked down siege mode, a battle for life and death. Understand that living this way is to always be on edge, to always be seconds away from full blown emergency. Yes I know that it’s not particularly rational but it just IS that way. There is no breaking through, our entire identity is about survival and the armor we have constructed over a lifetime, breaking that down at least in our own minds means washing us away entirely.
All I can suggest, somewhat embarrassingly is that the best approach is one that you would use for a child or an errant pet dog. Positive reinforcement. No not with doggy treats lol, but with carefully selected and genuine complements, (but be careful!) With statements about what you like or what they did right. Ask them what they think went well, and what they think may not have. Self-criticism is easy and constant with us so it’s no big deal, whereas the more emotionally connected we are to someone. The less we can deal with criticism. What you are fighting against is a constant tendency to self-doubt and ever-present dysphoria. So adding more doubt and criticism results in more dysphoria with the result we run away. And the fastest way to run away from an discussion>argument that is almost certainly be about how you have failed yet again is to bring out the nukes at the first sign of disagreement. Overwhelming force I think the doctrine is called.
Anyway, my view is that a sense of genuine searching for understanding is a big part of it and you seem to be well along the way to that, although I understand how difficult it must be to not just throw your hands up in frustration, it’s a testament to your commitment IMHO.
Jon
I am aware of rejection
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
I am aware of rejection-sensitive dysphoria and I realize that my ex-husband might have it. He dealt with it by abandoning me.
I am not sure if I sense some
Submitted by Jon on
I am not sure if I sense some hostility but I am sorry to hear that was the end result. Assuming this has been a negative for you of course. I too have done this in a situation where all I could see was wreckage, damage,pain and suffering. I waited till the opportunity presented then blew my entire life and that of my family apart as completely and irreparably as I could manage, and then I walked away from a life of possessions with nothing but a overnight bag of clothing. All I can say is that objectively for me and for my previous partner we are better off. Though I don't know your circumstances or situation so am not in a position to speculate.
Hopefully the future is a better place.
I'm still upset with my ex
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
I'm still upset with my ex that he chose to desert me. He is his parents' caregiver, the situation is not good, for him or for them, and he has told me that our marriage was the best thing that ever happened to him. But I think he intentionally left me, to avoid working on our marital issues and because he wanted to be the dumper, not the dumped. (His first girlfriend broke up with him.)
Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria (RSD)
Submitted by c ur self on
Reality must be faced (in each of our lives) or we just stay locked into a very uncomfortable life style (eggshell living) due to all of the baggage we have incurred over our life time...Much of it is self inflicted, it's just how our minds work....We hear a comment, and our minds assign meaning and motive...Boom! We believe it....And it's usually far from the truth...But we are locked....After setting here running my comment through my mind..I can clearly see how it could have been taken as an insult to her abilities as a wife...Thank you!...My wife says her #1 love language is affirmation...Do you think that is just a random thing? Of course not....You explained exactly how I need to deal w/ her....And how I try to do... But I try to do it without bringing any dysfunctional actions into my praises of the good things she does, and brings to our lives....It's not that hard to find wonderful things about my wife...But w/ her RSD, and with me being unfulfilled over certain things that I feel like she doesn't give enough attention to at time....This process in me suffers....."I don't do it enough" It can be a paradox of sorts....But you are right never the less....
Example....I took a picture of our front porch a few days ago, setting in my car....I sent the photo to our 4 adult children and just said something like.." My beautiful wife has our front porch so pleasant and beautiful to walk up on....(She has many pretty plants and flowers hanging and setting around)...She got wind of it, or I mentioned it to her...I didn't think that much about it (although I knew it would matter to her, see it as an act of love), she came back a little later that evening and said something about the flowers...Then she said..."I'm kind of proud of myself"...I smiled and said you should be:).
She is just like you explained...She can go from the Low's and victim stuff one minute...(usually this mode is stimulated by the mundane of daily responsibility) Right to the happiest, loudest, most fun girl in town...LOL....(This one is usually stimulated by fun things, grand babies, walks with me, light living, frivolity, just like a happy child who looses track of time, and never wants to quit)
Yep, it's difficult to pick the right words some times...Quiet is good;)....Jon your incite has been great for me and I'm sure many here....You sound like you think a great deal like my wife...The BIG difference is she could never get on this site and discuss the reality of life in her mind....Even though, it would probably be great for her, and great for those who would love to hear what she has to say about daily life in her mind.
Never say never....
c
Jon, good post
Submitted by dedelight4 on
Tbis is a good post, full of helpful things. Our case was a little different, to where I did give my ADHD husband a lot of affirmation and praise, but he didnt accept it from me. He said his "peers" acceptance meant more than mine did. Which I dont understand. He also was "in love" with his first girlfriend more than me all these years, but never told me till about 3 years ago. (Had one long term affair as well)
I was never cruel to hum, didnt call him names or belittle him, and this went on 2 decades before we found out about the ADHD. I DO wish he had been HONEST with me from the first, instead of pretending to be someone else, and keeping on a mask of hiding himself. The true person still comes out in behaviors. I still loved him regardless,, but it was his continual rejection of me, that finally did me in. And, his refusal to then face the ADHD even after the diagnosis
I told him, "You are not your ADHD, you have it, yes, , but the person I love is YOU". ( meaning the real person inside) I still couldnt break through the wall he built, so for my own well being, I had to distance myself and my emotions. I felt so foolish for loving a person, who in so many ways, was telling me he was never "in love" with me. I felt so bad about myself after all this. All I wanted was TRUTH, and I needed him to be honest about himself and be honest in how he felt about me. He wouldnt do it, and still has trouble saying the actual truth without being incredibly "vague" about our relationship. People need to know where they stand with someone, and I needed to know where I stood in his life.
I explained a few times, that I could use some positive feedback from him also. This still doesnt happen unless I ask for it. I had to stop wanting that any more also. But, what bappened with all of this, was that I lost all hopes and dreams, all desires, because I couldnt count on him to provide me with some much needed love and affirmation as well. Maybe I was wrong for even "wanting" affection from my spouse, but isnt that what most spouses do? Regardless if they have ADHD or not? Anyway, not critizing, just stating what happened with us. We now live as roomates and friends, no intimacy at all. Its just strange. We are civil to each other and dont yell or scream, but theres no passion either. I try not to think about it as much anymore, but some days get overwhelming.
Anyway, thanks Jon for posting. i really enjoy reading what you write.