This is the strangest feeling. It's nice. Very nice. I'm not sure how I arrived at this point of acceptance and peace. It's been a long two years + and a circuitous route.
Brief explanation:
Some old friends learned that I'm divorcing. Our children had played sports together and the couples were close and socially active together. My son and I noticed that he was no longer invited to many events and I noticed that my H and I were excluded from things. It was unpleasant but I didn't spend too much time thinking about it.
They invited me to lunch. I was happy to see them again. The purpose of the lunch was to let me know that my H had been inappropriately pursuing one of them. They had copies of the texts. They were not flirtatious. It was disgusting. It was the worst kind of stuff that I imagine people say on hook up sites. I can only imagine, because I've never communicated on them.
This happened several years ago when things were good between us.
He chose to target someone I considered a friend. She shut him down but he would have had the affair if given the opportunity.
I confronted him. I was able to objectively, without emotion, see the pattern of his responses. It was a long term pattern I was caught up in and it had no good end for me emotionally.
1. deny deny deny
2. Tell me I'm a liar and making stuff up
3. Resort to character assassination of the other party.
4. Realize I have proof and shut down after sticking the lie to the end
5. Act like nothing happened the next day and accuse me of being negative and not letting it go
I guess I've finally reached the point where I can understand that his behavior doesn't have anything to do with me. Two years ago, I would have been devastated by something like this. Instead, I feel grateful that I finally have proof of his actions. Everything else has been circumstantial. I now feel the relief of not second guessing myself in this decision. I received the gift of now knowing how he really is.
The most interesting side effect of the new attitude and composure is that it changed the dynamics of the disagreement. In the past, his actions tore me apart. He acted as if I was crazy and deranged for being upset. He moved on without any ill effects. This time, he is the one who is feeling the ill effects and I am not.
Anyway, right now he is very fearful of how it might affect his relationship with my son.
I told him that this would be a good time to "practice" an apology since there is no longer any pressure. LOL I used to crave an acknowledgement and an apology, but I've spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to move on without one. So, now I no longer need one and it changed how I viewed this betrayal.
I'm Glad you got this closure.....
Submitted by c ur self on
I'm just happy for you VBG!...No one should have to (or allow themselves) continue to be subjected to a spouse who isn't faithful, caring, and loving.....It's amazing how much better life can be when we are free of the abuse and disrespect....We can focus on our own well being, our life purposes, loved ones, true friends, all the healthy things....
I really wish you many good days!
C
It's too late but ...
Submitted by vabeachgal on
C:
I can't really explain what the turning point or spark was, but I received the closes thing to a real apology and personal responsibility last night. It was if for the first time in ten years, he turned around an actually looked at me as a person. I have a feeling that it was because this latest situation was personal to him. In the past, his transgressions only affected me, not him. For example, he could not see that pursuing this other woman was a rejection of me. When I said "you rejected me for her???" , he said, no, I didn't reject you. Our brains weren't functioning the same way. In his mind, his actions were not a rejection of me and my mind is unable to process such actions as anything other than a rejection.
In any case, it was the very real and personal effect of jeopardizing his relationship with my son coupled with the painful realization that so many people knew about his actions and concluded that he wasn't such a great guy after all - his usual role in our social outings.
I do believe he lacks an ability to empathize but he does not lack to ability to understand something that hurts him. Whatever happened, I heard things last night that I didn't think I would ever hear.
Now, it is too late. I cannot trust him and that will not change, but maybe something good will come of all of this for him and I can move on without a huge burden of guilt.
Usually good things happen when we are broken.....
Submitted by c ur self on
It's never to late for us as individuals...You, Him, all of us....Jesus made that possible....My wife showed me a self view of herself, that I had never saw in our 10 years, when she realized, I was truly done, I saw a wife taking on wife responsibilities with a calm spirit and a smile...
I know it touched you for him to see himself, and be open with you...It did me also....All we ever wanted was a spouse who was open and approachable...Who showed love and kindness....
I personally think space (time apart) is the second best thing for us when we have been through so much unhealthy dysfunction that it's over come our mind and emotions....But even space can't truly change us...I've found out in my own life what Albert Einstein said was true....No real change can take place when you are trying to make changes using the same level of thinking that created the problems to begin with...It's takes a higher power to intervene...
I hope your husband does get some counceling, for himself....
The pattern of response
Submitted by jennalemone on
" I confronted him. I was able to objectively, without emotion, see the pattern of his responses. It was a long term pattern I was caught up in and it had no good end for me emotionally."
This exactly describes what I have been doing...even tho I am still married. I have removed myself from my feelings and emotions when I am with H and just quietly listen now to his responses. They are exactly like the 5 descriptions you list. I also do not trust my H. He thinks it is funny and his right to flirt with my friends.
Yesterday I found him soldering using the washing machine as his soldering table. I said, "You can't use the washing machine as a soldering table!" He responded with "Stop it! I am not doing anything wrong! I am being careful! I won't wreck your precious washing machine! Geesh!" as I walked away, he said, "Oink, Oink, Oink". I am not fat or ugly and anything but a pig - but he turned tables around to make me feel bad and him feel superior after I state my position or need or point out something we should just talk about.
If someone would have ever said to me, "You can't use the washing machine for a soldering table", I would have given my apologies and immediately moved to a more suitable place.
His Trump-like turnarounds, putting himself in a favorable light and demolishing anyone opposing him, wears a person down until eventually you don't have the stamina or the spirit to hold your own. You just don't want to fight about EVERYTHING - especially when your opponent feels free to sling out rude talk and behaviors within an intimate partnership.
I am glad you posted this. In some way it helps me be sane to know that other people in a similar situation doubted themselves as the spouse was gaslighting you.
Name calling, gaslighting, minimizing...
Submitted by CaliforniaGirl on
It does wear you down.
My ex also had a very predictable pattern anytime I would try to address a problem, something that seemed odd, or something that wasn't getting done. Mostly around his divorce, the financial problems or his porn habit and questionable relationships with female co-workers and other women. It went like this:
1. Deny, justify, minimize, blame someone else, evade direct questions, act like he didn't understand, use word salad to create confusion, change the subject and otherwise try to "get it off him".
1a. Occasionally he would start or end with the opposite route of love-bombing. Hand holding, flattery, eye gazing, caresses, kisses .. all while repeating promises and words of sincerity and denying that there was any issue.
He would go back and forth between these two tactics depending.. start with one and then try the other..
(and when that didn't work...)
2. Begin to assault my character, past history, and personality. Accuse me of being insecure, impatient, untrusting or a bully (picking on him/fault-finding on purpose) and needing to be right or to win all the time. Use my past words, past relationships or past admissions of my own shortcomings against me. Accuse me of otherwise "having issues"...
(and when that didn't work)
3. Insults, sarcasm, yelling, bodily intimidation (finger pointing, getting too close, arm waving, stomping around), screaming in my face or screaming on the phone. Blame me for "bringing all this anger out in him".
(and when that didn't work)
4. Storming out, hanging up on me, refusing to answer calls or texts, not adhering to previously agreed upon rules of communication (ie: not communicating when he had been drinking, or finding an agreed upon time to circle back and re-open discussion), silent treatment and other withholding behaviors...
When I could finally get ahold of him or he decided he wanted to re-engage it would circle around and start over until one of the above would work and I would give in and agree to more time or otherwise compromise myself somehow. And then he would go right back to doing whatever he wanted. He did quite a few of these things in our couples therapy as well, whenever he was being held accountable.
At the time I didn't fully understand that I was being manipulated and abused... because there were, of course, good times in between. A honeymoon period. Until it would all happen again the next time I tried to address something. Plus, I don't feel that many of us are taught these things growing up. Excuses are made for others bad behavior. (Oh, that's just how mom is. Oh, that little boy pulled your hair because he likes you. Oh, you just need to forgive and forget.)... and so oftentimes our only concept of abuse is something that results physical violence. Thankfully I have had a good therapist to help me. Looking back it's no wonder I was a mess. It was abuse and it is not acceptable. I should have walked away early on.
Getting angry is ok. Getting frustrated is ok. Name calling, manipulation, gas-lighting, insults etc... not ok. We all deserve to be treated with dignity and respect.
WOW....CG....
Submitted by c ur self on
You see it so clearly....And say it so well....Even if you did endure way more than any human should have to....So glad you are free from the cycle....Some people will do or say ANYTHING they have to, to continue to have their cake and eat it too....People like that see others as only something to use for their own easy of living, and self satisfaction....WOW!
C
Took a long time..
Submitted by CaliforniaGirl on
Thanks C.. it took me a long time to work through this stuff and see it for what it was. Still working through some of it. Sometimes he would apologize and admit he needed to change things. Sometimes he would explode and go straight to screaming and storming off, skipping parts 1 and 2 entirely. Especially if he had been drinking at all. Sometimes I think he meant the tearful, romantic, love-bombing parts of it. The lines were very blurry and confusing. It was mostly predictable though. 80/20...
And to be clear, I don't think this is all ADD but rather some additional co-morbidities and/or learned behaviors that developed over his entire life. Some of it he was careful not to do if anyone else was around.
A while back I found a resource online (youtube channel and support group) for recovery from narcissistic or other toxic manipulation cycles. I found it quite helpful, in addition to regular therapy sessions with a professional, in keeping me grounded or just listening to others stories and not feeling so alone. If anyone is interested it's called Thrive After Abuse and the hostess name is Dana. A quick google search will find it I'm sure. :-)
It's not add/adhd.....
Submitted by c ur self on
(I don't think this is all ADD but rather some additional co-morbidities and/or learned behaviors that developed over his entire life.)....
And you would be 100% correct in my opinion....Add/adhd is a difficulty of mind, that many people have to manage...People from every walk of life....But add isn't sin nor is it an excuse for it....Add isn't a reason to hurt others...Never has been, and never will be....
We really shouldn't even mention add/adhd in the same breathe w/ someone who is self absorbed and excuses themselves for selfish and sinful behaviors...
The reason that happens is because the people who love add/adhd minded people, who also live sinful and undisciplined lives, just hates to face what is truly producing their loved one's behaviors...It's just easier to blame a label for their pain....
C
Well...
Submitted by CaliforniaGirl on
We know from the science that the parts of the brain affected by ADD are the same parts of the brain that control inhibitory response and metacognition. The ability to control ones own actions and to self reflect, self question and self monitor those actions. The ability to consider what the consequences of those actions might be on oneself and on others before acting on them. The ability to consider how another person might feel about something. And so on.
Both Dr. Barkely and Dr. Brown also have excellent presentations on the emotional issues of ADD and there are a ton of articles out there re ADD and anger in particular.
So, when it comes to the emotional dysregulation that so many people here have experienced with their partners - I do think it's ADD *to an extent*. My partner would also cry over things that most people might not. Or get extremely over-excited about something. He would also get extremely anxious in certain situations, like if we were going to be at a family gathering with his estranged wife. Those emotions aren't as much of a problem when interacting with others. Anger is.
I believe my ex learned how to use various emotions as a manipulation tool really early on. Probably to get out of trouble and to make himself feel better by putting his mistakes off on other people. But now, at 56 years old, it's morphed into a pattern of behavior that is narcissistic and abusive.
To your point, though.. I agree that it is difficult to accept when a loved one is not going to change. Or at least, not because of us or by anything we can do about it. None of our partners are/were 100% problematic 100% of the time, otherwise we would have never gotten involved in the first place. So it's very, very painful to come to terms with.
(We know from the science
Submitted by c ur self on
(We know from the science that the parts of the brain affected by ADD are the same parts of the brain that control inhibitory response and metacognition. The ability to control ones own actions and to self reflect, self question and self monitor those actions. The ability to consider what the consequences of those actions might be on oneself and on others before acting on them. The ability to consider how another person might feel about something. And so on.)
Yes, this is the struggle of mind...Cognitive Impairment is surly real...But like you said so well again....Learning to give into their struggles to filter, or to reason concerning their thoughts, and manage them as to be accountable to their commitments, relationships, and for self care also....Is a choice....
C
You nailed it
Submitted by Resentful on
I'm so glad I am not alone. I am also in therapy and they too have also reiterated this is a form of emotional abuse, it took years to recognize it but now that I dealing with it and taking the time necessary to rebuild myself.
I'm glad you're in therapy, R.
Submitted by CaliforniaGirl on
I questioned my own reality, too. So much confusion, resentment and frustration. But you can recover. Slow and steady. You are worthy of love and respect. :-)
(hug)
Jenna, in reading your post, so much comes to mind....
Submitted by c ur self on
Questions like:
Why do we (any of us) continue year after year to attempt to address a person (our spouses) who is going to refuse to respond to questions or comments about their behaviors in respectful and adult ways?? Why do we do it??
When we know the odds are heavy in favor of a reply that is filled w/ smart ass and disrespectful comments...Justifications, and most always ends in an attempt to flip our simple question or request, into some kind of gaslighting attempt?? Why? Why do we continue to address them? Are we just hoping that they will actually wake up one morning and be different??
Asking myself this....All I can say is, yes, it's just hope that things can be better....I don't know why I hope this....I guess I know myself well enough to know, if I ever stop having hope....I would leave....
But, I really want to stop questioning, and pointing out things...Because I only make it hard on my self when I engage, question or point out her behaviors....I guess I make her feel like a child when I point out or question her actions....When we Accept their behaviors w/o question (to avoid the BS that comes back) we will be effected...LOL...But, it's pick ur position...And I had rather live my life wisely, refusing to Own her crap....Than hear what's going to be puked out on me when I question or point it out....
Your post and VBG's post about pattern of response is so day to day relevant in our lives here....
C
Why the hurtful things, learned
Submitted by dedelight4 on
Interesting thread, but also sad. Its hard to understand why so many spouses with ADHD refuse help when they know they are doing hurtful things to others. It continues on year after year, blaming others until they hit bottom and get he!p for themselves. (Similar to an addiction thing)
My H has always been SO hard on his older brother who WAS a drug addict/ alcoholic. H blamed him for being a "troublemaker" for the family. When in reality it was their mother who was very responsible for him becoming this way. Their mother was bipolar/ADHD, and what's ever else, but was never diagnosed until her 70s, when the Alzheimer's diagnosis came. It explained a lot. She was a distant, cold woman who didn't like BEING a mother, and was angry, impatient, blaming, and frustrating in general to be around. It was hard to be around her as an adult, let alone a little child, who has no power over her anger and inability to cope with much of anything. But H idealized his mother, because she put H on a pedestal. It was awful to watch such blatant favoritism. Curiously, even to her "favorite" child, she never showed any love, touching, or closeness. She also hated being hugged or "touched". But, H defended her to a fault, and what a good mother she was.
I was always surprised at just how fast his mother could go from " being okay" to explosive anger in a millisecond. She just couldn't cope with anything. How sad for the children.
Anyway, I was watching Dr. Russell Barkley yesterday, and he was talking about ADHD and emotions. (On YouTube) He said something that really hit me. It was about how much Oppositional Defiance Disorder automatically goes along WITH ADHD. Its NOT co-morbid, as I've read in other places. He also said ODD is LEARNED, not genetic, like ADHD is. I was amazed. But it made perfect sense in H's case. He LEARNED how to be defiant and oppositional from his mother, because that's how SHE was. But, she praised him so much that he believed he was "special". This abnormal behavior continued on through him.
I believe its almost worse when a mother has ADHD, than when a father has it. Because the mother is the " nurturer" of the babies/children mostly. And almost exclusively in my age group. When she is undiagnosed and unable to function well, how can the children possibly have a chance to undo all that damage? Especially if they are ADHD as well? It becomes almost a nightmare scenario. I don't blame my husbands brother for becoming an addict,. Its like Dr. Phil says, "Why WOULDNT he have become that?" He almost had to, to cope with the imbalances and inabilities of what his mother could not do, because she was mentally ill. He didn't stand a chance, since he was also ADHD., and then was diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic later in life.
The difficulty comes also when the adhders grow up, and get married. They don't want to admit that their behaviors are problematic. Not until after, several failed marriages and/or relationships, and they keep hearing the same complaints from many different people. But, denial is a powerful thing.
How do you convince an ADHD person in denial that you are NOT their enemy? That you love them enough to see them through the tough times and through therapy, to have a better life? It can't be done......I'm convinced.....UNTIL.....THEY see the need for change. Again, much like the addiction cycle.
Ah Dede.....
Submitted by Zapp10 on
Your expose' on your mother in law is all too familiar to me. Your question of how to convince your H you are not the enemy....in my opinion? He truly may not know love.
Where was he to get it from? I am in the same situation. I will not forget the moment I realized that my H loved me the best he could and it was sadly lacking. He has 4 other siblings suffering from her horrible inability to love. She could not give what wasn't given to her. My H is coming to terms with this and has a long way to go. He simply found my affection, words and actions of love difficult, odd and empty to him. Even a gentle touch was rebuffed.
Add in unaddressed ADHD and what a lovely cocktail that is!
We have been together 44 years. It is all up in the air now. I care deeply.....though not in a marital union.