Here is a new perspective. I have been trying so hard to "make things OK" that I have lost my self. Believing that to get along meant that I must compromise and not fight and not nag and try to soothe H's (and other people's) anger/discomfort and to help his overwhelm.
Well, that has not worked. AND I lost my self, my joy, my strength, my identity. I read this today and it points me in another, happier, more robust future:
"It's impossible to be in a highly inter-dependent relationship without ever being judgmental or being judged. If you strive to always feel emotionally safe in your relationship and get it, you will pay the price by becoming dull. If neither of you ever rocks the boat, you will end up with a dull relationship." The Couples Institute
That is what happened to me. It's time for me to rock the boat and try to see if I still have the ability to know myself and feel my own feelings instead of trying to understand and help and change my self for H. And not make it my business to care so much for other people's thoughts and feelings. I don't know how to fight with my own passion and still keep a relationship going. I feel like an over disciplined dog...one that looks out with sad, pathetic eyes and no longer able to bring joy into the room with exuberance and entitlement. I don't know how to get that back. I once definitely had that ability but I lost it. I am going to try to get back into being OK with the difficult conversations and holding my own without second guessing myself and letting myself be heard and taking the chances of disapproval, rejection and being wrong.
Me, too
Submitted by Brindle on
A few months ago, I ran into a quote similar to what you posted here. It was just a simple sentence, and said that those who want to have a good marriage have to be willing to risk the marriage itself in order to fight for health in the relationship.
And I realized - I had pulled back and pulled back and restrained so many innocent things of myself because I didn’t want to upset him. His irritability and staring through me when I talked... well now I know that the hyper focus stage was over, but I didn’t know then. But I backed up and hushed up, and that was in the peaceful moments. In the stressful moments, when he was even more irritable or had a bad day, I tried not to make it worse, and tried to cheer him up and definitely didn’t bring up my needs or bad day because he couldn’t handle my needs and his own simultaneously. (And in truth, he can’t handle other people’s feelings very well at any time.) I even stopped making jokes because once the hyper focus was over, he was always lost in his own head and just stared at me when I was funny. If I said something about my joke, he either said nothing at all or with a deadpan face would say, “I thought it was funny. I smiled.” Actually, no. His face stayed the same. And it hurt to feel ignored at all times, and so I just kept withdrawing, because talking to him about it was met with irritability.
Eventually we got to the point where the relationship was all about him, because I had gotten so small to try to be safe. I’ve realized - until he really grasps what his symptoms create in a relationship, until he tries to mitigate that or truly work on the relationship with me - I actually can’t feel safe. In his current state, one of ignorance and denial, I actually have to stop caring what he thinks in order to be safe. I have to reclaim myself and let him just be angry. Who cares? It is his problem.
And when there is an issue to discuss, and I know he won’t like it - what’s the worst that will happen? He will get angrier, and I will have to stand up to the way it turns nasty because it’s the good and right thing to do.
I did stand up against his anger, the big kind that causes everyone to stop and stare. And it made him more careful about those moments, though it made him more resentful of me. Again, I have to harden myself against being concerned about what he thinks of me. Especially when his view is twisted and not seeing all the unhealthy yuck his symptoms have him mired in.
It feels good, scary, relieving, and foreign to be forming this mindset. My natural bent is to want him to be happy with me. I want us to be happy with each other. But I don’t think that’s possible at this juncture. But that isn’t my fault, and I can see that now.
~ coming back and editing to say...
Either way - talking to him about the problems as they came up OR withdrawing because I knew he’d never listen - both of those things carried the risk of damaging the marriage. I can either push for change, push for clarity, push for therapy and diagnosis... or I can let our relationship die with a whimper. Yes, it may risk the relationship ending sooner. But the other way wastes my years.
This is a great point Brin... and it can happen quickly....
Submitted by c ur self on
(Eventually we got to the point where the relationship was all about him, because I had gotten so small to try to be safe. )
I did the same, before you know it, your just waiting for their next want or complaint...Because there isn't any (no mind space) ability to give attention to your concerns or needs...There own life consumes them...This is where a spouse can feel completely abandoned, even in their presents....There's no ability to share unless it's their need to be heard, or their need to be touched, or their need for help...
In hind site this is the first thing we should have confronted right off the bat....Knowing what I know now, we should have stayed in the counselors office at least bi-weekly the first year or two of our marriage...Because these type dynamics become bad habits quickly....And if you are a servant minded spouse, who's main focus is just to have a peaceful relationship...It's so easy to allow this huge hindrance to healthy communication become fixed behavior....Listening for understanding over prolonged periods is hard for me and about impossible for her...So healthy verbal engagement takes super awareness...It's not always about..Do I care...Sometimes it's about....Distracting thoughts and getting lost....The problem isn't the fact it's difficult for some minds to stay locked on to conversation details...The real problems start when we deny our realities, and our go to in any circumstance is always blame....That's not repairable...
Brin what you wrote really
Submitted by Mimiqat on
Brin what you wrote really resonated with me. I am 22 years in and have come to the same conclusion. I have to protect myself at this point. I have talked, argued, and yelled only to have it backfire. I lost myself in my relationship.
Beyond well said Brin,
Submitted by Zapp10 on
What you have said in your post ........should be fair warning to all who come against a spouse determined to live in denial. There is no "marriage".....no matter how you look at it. Doesn't mean you don't love .....but if you are expecting mutual reciprocation that satisfies your needs( and we DO have them by Gods design).....and denial prevails.......there is no marriage.
I don't like the couple's institute's...Wisdom here.....
Submitted by c ur self on
If we try to live interdependent w/ a spouse that continues to make us question our trust for them...That is different than judging them....Most of the people on this site (that I read about, including me) have very little ability to even have an interdependent relationship....(That takes two people doing the work, with full trust for one another)....What many of us seem to have is one-sided relationships, where we are dealing with a mind that locks on to Independence in play and perceived fun things...And locks on to dependence when it comes to being responsible and doing the work....So there is absolutely no ability to even have a inter-dependent relationship under these circumstances....Of course your personal feelings "over disciplined dog" or the same for many of us, who continues to seek a healthy inter-dependent relationship where there is no ability for one to exist.... So I do hear you...Because I feel the same...Once I accepted the limitations (reality) of what we do have...I have been able to move on and find myself for the most part....I had to stop wanting (living in a mind-set that inter-dependency could happen in our present circumstances) what there was no ability to have....
I don't have to judge her....All I have to do is observe and experience her reality....It takes discipline in every walk of life...It takes discipline by two to live inter-dependent...It also takes discipline to recognize what I must do when the circumstances aren't conducive for an inter-dependent relationship....
We don't need to feel beat down because we can't make something happen in our relationships....It takes two....thus the term (Inter-dependent)...Most of us can find inter-dependent sharing in area's of our lives and in certain times and season's of our lives...Because if something is important to us personally we will discipline our selves in the mechanics of sharing and trusting.....
When my spouse and I was in Italy back in December, she had her focus on the two us, disciplining ourselves for sharing....There wasn't a lot of distractions....No TV, etc...So there was a relaxed attentiveness about here demeanor. The kind we should have for our spouses daily....We can't run to Italy to avoid distractions...We must care to discipline our selves in every area of what it means to have a healthy marital relationship, and not make excuses and be in denial of what that constitutes (discipline)....And until that reality is accepted, by BOTH partners.....There is no since in those of us who are aware of the need, to beat ourselves down about it....I recommend trying to avoid difficult conversations, (there not helpful) and just be a quiet example of a person who is capable of loving their life, and knows that they are loved....
That will make him start questioning....Why are you so quiet? Why are you so happy? Where are you? Who are you going out to eat and to the movie with? Yes, if we have a partner that lives like they are being put out, and complains about the simple disciplines of sharing their lives inter-dependently....Then who wants to subject them selves to that?? I did it to long!....We have to puke that up! :)
Show me you are thankful for all that I do to love you daily, by returning my love in kind w/ Joy and a Thankful Spirit...Or I will see you later, you can share your negativity with the walls....I do this not because I don't love her but because I do...But we are all important....It's an accountability lesson...It helps to open eyes when we live well, and refuse to be a victim or put up w/ one....
c
Rocking the boat by having a different opinion
Submitted by Brindle on
When your spouse cannot tolerate your differing opinion, and repeatedly interprets it as you are correcting them, how do you all handle it? I have tried to analyze myself to see if there is an validity to his point... but I don’t understand how even if someone says “I completely disagree with you and think you are wrong” (which I didn’t say), how that could be taken as being corrected by someone else. But even if I had said that, why would that be so bad? I’m trying to think how I sounded... was it my tone of voice, did I have a look on my face that conveyed something I didn’t intend... I can’t figure it out, but he takes it as being corrected. We have very wide gaps in how we see things. And I am ok with that, but we can’t share ideas or discuss things because he doesn’t seem to be ok with that.
I keep bumping into this wall. We don’t get to talk all that much, but when we do: He says something, I respond, and he gets upset, saying I just can’t let him have his opinion. I’ve asked others around us if I’m doing something wrong. Can they tell me what I’m doing wrong. So far, no one understands what the problem is, either. All I can imagine is the rejection dysphoria thing is an issue
The only way I could stop the problem is to simply say, “Oh?” or to ask questions so he explains himself more... but to never offer my opinion. Which means I shrink back more, because he does not ask me what I think on issues. So it would be conversation after conversation of one-sidedness.
Is there a third option I’m just not seeing? I’m starting to feel like he just wants me to be a yes-man.
Brin, possible hearing difference
Submitted by dedelight4 on
This is hard to deal with for sure. It's possible he's hearing or should I say "not hearing" some of these things the exact way you say them. My H has done the same. Example: My daughter and I were sitting at the table doing crafts together. H comes and sits at the same table and is doing some book work.
My daughter and I are just chatting about a little bit of everything, and we were having fun and enjoying the evening. I said, "This reminds me of a nice memory of a project I did in art class in high school". Then, I went on to tell her the story of the project we did. All of a sudden, my H looks up and says angrily, "Why don't you just stop complaining about it then"? I looked shocked ar first, and my daughter and I looked at each other in surprise and disbelief. H then gets up and leaves, telling me to "stop complaining".
I walked over to him and asked him why he said that to me, and explained to him what I was ACTUALLY talking about,....which was a happy memory. He looks back and says with frustration, "Well, NEXT time when you want my attention, tap me on the arm or something". WHAT? I was really confused. I hadnt been trying to GET his attention. I was just telling my daughter a happy memory from my teen years. Then, he walks away.
He didnt understand ANY of what was really being said, and interjected his own view of what he thought I had said. (Which was all wrong) He hadnt actually been listening, because his mind was somewhere else. So, he reacted to his own "made up" version of what he "thought" I said, which was totally different. It was crazy. My daughter just looked at me in amazement, of this weird scenario taking place.
And then to top it off, it ends with him chiding me, about not getting his full attention when talking to him. It was just bizarre. It was JUST us girls chatting with each other at the table, NOT me trying to "tell" him something". He had not heard ANY of the real conversation and made up his own. It was really weird. But, then for him to get angry at me about it, and storm off because I didnt make sure I had his full attention, was even stranger. The whole thing was crazy.
So, what I'm saying to you, is that your husband may not actually be hearing the things you're saying, and coming up with his own version of it. It's a possibility. It's happened many times at our house.
Good thoughts
Submitted by Brindle on
Thank you for sharing that possibility. I wonder...
This is too familiar. It
Submitted by SweetandSour on
This is too familiar. It's destroyed my whole relationship. My partner avoids me in every way he can and shuts down every attempt I make at conversation. His reason, he says, is that he's been "hurt" by me so many times and he's not willing to risk it anymore. He tells me I need to think about what I'm saying and listen to myself, that I need to "stop hurting" him and "stop insulting" him. I'm certainly not hurting him deliberately! I'm pretty careful about what I say. He is the one who can't filter his own speech. I think he's hearing his own internal critical voice almost continuously because he hears insults and criticism in everything I say.
It seems to me also, that he can't tolerate me having my own opinion. He mostly doesn't respond if I initiate a topic. The way he talks is he talks on a subject when he initiates it. He doesn't engage in a back and forth conversation.
I’m sorry. It’s frustrating
Submitted by Brindle on
I’m sorry. It’s frustrating because it blows my mind how complicated simple things in the relationship have become.
Asking Questions
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
Sometimes I'm able to ask my husband questions to get him to understand the point that I'm trying to make. Kind of like a witness on the stand in a trial being questioned by a lawyer that's trying to prove a point, except in a completely casual and non threatening way. I can only think of one example right now. Several years ago my husband read an article written by a doctor that was treating a whole family. The husband of the family had adhd, the wife had anxiety and depression, and the son had adhd and odd. This is the exact same structure of our family so I really wanted him to give it some thought. I asked him very calmly and casually, "why do you think the wife had anxiety and depression?" He thought about it for a few seconds and then I saw the look of understanding on his face. He answered very slowly, "because the husband had adhd and the son had adhd and odd." BOOM! That was a big moment for us. That was the moment that he realized that his behavior and my son's behavior we creating an environment that was making me unwell. He understood it so much better because he thought the whole scenario through for himself rather than me telling him or preaching to him.
Thank you
Submitted by Brindle on
That’s a good thought. Talk to him as a therapist would, essentially. Draw his thoughts out. Thank you.