I Googled codependent and Independent today because it occurs to me that H has lived his life like an independent person. His top priority seems to be to NOT be responsible or relied upon by anyone and by calling his own shots. His bravado comes from a sense of his being his own man. No burdens. Not accountable to anyone. I have been one to always put the marriage and family first and now I am resentful. The following article talks about how resentment grows in a codependent relationship but that there is no relationship if one of the people are independent. I need to stop being codependent, expecting Mr Independent to communicate intimately with me. He is not going to. For me, it is all about acceptance of this loss in my expectations of happy marriage. Here is the article from the proactivechange.com site:
Co-dependence vs Inter-dependence
In codependent relationships, the partners have difficulty being themselves while being in the relationship. Often, codependent people feel that they "should" be independent. This leads to black-and-white, all-or-nothing thinking: either you or totally independent, to the point of being unrelated, or you are codependent!In fact, you cannot be both in a relationship and totally independent. The challenge is to be interdependent, recognizing that you need your partner and your partner needs you... but both of you also need to be individuals.
Being part of the couple vs being a separate person
In any relationship, people are mutually dependent (that's the very definition of a relationship). Therefore, people in a relationship will inevitably experience tension between the pull to see yourself as part of the couple, and the pull to see yourself as a separate person. Think of it as a slider on an electronic appliance:
- One end of the slider corresponds to the position where the only thing that counts is the couple;
- The other end of the slider corresponds to the position where the only thing that counts is being a separate person. Neither of these extreme positions is workable:
- If the only thing that counts is being a couple, you are stifled as a person.
- If the only thing that counts is being separate, then there is not much common ground for being a couple. So, obviously, the slider is going to have to be some place in between, and this place is going to vary moment by moment, situation by situation.
This is what codependent people have trouble with: They have difficulty with the flexibility of moment-by-moment adjustment. They are more likely to be in an all-or-nothing mode - - all accommodating to the other, or seeing any demands of their partner's as pure selfishness.
Conflicts (or lack thereof)
The point I am repeatedly making in this article is that there is an inherent conflict to being in a relationship. The art of relationships is to manage conflicts, not avoid them as if they were a shameful "proof" that you are a dysfunctional couple. In fact, what is dysfunctional in a couple is to avoid conflicts. Growth lies in learning how to effectively manage conflicts.In a healthy relationship, this can be dealt with openly; as a result, both partners can progressively feel more secure in the relationship, more intimate at the same time as they grow as individuals.With codependency, these issues are more difficult to deal with. Often, they are simply swept under the rug. Or they're dealt with in an atmosphere poisoned by accusations of selfishness. Or one partner finds a way to intimidate the other… As a result, there is a growing backlog of resentment between the spouses. A symptom of codependency is the extent to which desires and demands are not fully expressed, mostly hinted at. This is usually because there is a fear of conflict: If you ask for what you want, you fear that your partner will be hurt or angry, and it's going to be an unpleasant moment... on the other hand, you can't bear to stay silent, you say something, but in such a covert way that your partner won't get it... which is a perfect recipe for feeling unheard, frustrated and resentful.All too often, what happens is that each partner feels they have an implicit agreement with the other -- but the other is not aware of this implicit agreement at all. Hence the sense, on both parts, that there is something fishy going on, that the other is in bad faith. The antidote to this is to build a safe environment. This means that there is room in the relationship for each partner to fully express their needs and wants.
Related to this is the sense of "you owe me". You do something for your partner that you don't really want to do, you convince yourself to do it by telling yourself that, this way, your partner will owe you a favor. But you don't tell this to your partner at the moment you do what your partner wants. You only mention it much later, when you are trying to cash in the favor, and your partner acts surprised and angry, and then you feel betrayed!
Feeling constrained
Another symptom of codependency is a sense of feeling "hemmed in", constrained in the relationship. This is in contrast to feeling spontaneous and free. It feels like you cannot do or say what you want because it's going to either hurt or anger your partner.Now, of course, expressing what you need and want does not at all mean that your partner is obligated to give that to you. In fact, part of what makes the relationship safe is that there is no sense of coercion: If your partner expresses what they want, this does not mean that you have to give it to them, walking all over your own needs to do this. Here again, we're talking about learning to negotiate, and to tolerate the inevitable frustrations that are part of the negotiating process.Until such a time as you are able to make room for these frustrations, what is going to happen is a sense of despair and anger every time there is a conflict. You will tend to see your partner as a source of frustration, as the source of your unhappiness. And vice versa. As a result, there will be a lot of blame and finger-pointing. This is very much a characteristic of codependency: "It's your fault!". This is not very different from what happens when kids bicker: "But, mom, he started it!". Bickering kids would very much like to have a grown-up validate their feelings by punishing the other kid. Ideally, grown-ups are able to go beyond these feelings in order to resolve their differences between themselves. Resorting to blame makes it harder to understand each other and find common ground. In fact, the blame game seems to turn into an ever escalating cycle, where it becomes harder and harder to stop and acknowledge each other.For codependency to heal, it is imperative that partners agree to create safety in the relationship by consciously avoiding blaming, shaming, dismissing each other, or stonewalling as a passive-aggressive response to real or perceived attacks.
Lack of intimacy
Yet another symptom of codependency is that, despite feeling so connected in terms of feeling the limitations that the relationship imposes on you, there is a very real difficulty with true intimacy. It is difficult for the two of you to drop your guard, to feel relaxed comfortable and vulnerable (in a good way) within the safety of the relationship. So you actually avoid intimacy. You or your partner have too much to do at work or with the kids, you were too tired to make time for special moments -- I am not just referring to physical intimacy, but also to emotional closeness as well.
What next?
Life would be easier if your partner would "see the light", and be willing to change. Unfortunately, this is something you have very little power over, if any at all.
A typical codependent reaction is to believe that nothing can be done unless both partners in the relationship work at it. Of course, it's much better if you both work at it. But, if your partner doesn't want to, you can still do something very productive, both for yourself, and for the relationship. The power you have is over what you can do, from your end, to deal with co-dependency.
Working toward acceptance of these realities......
Submitted by c ur self on
(What next?
Life would be easier if your partner would "see the light", and be willing to change. Unfortunately, this is something you have very little power over, if any at all.
A typical codependent reaction is to believe that nothing can be done unless both partners in the relationship work at it. Of course, it's much better if you both work at it. But, if your partner doesn't want to, you can still do something very productive, both for yourself, and for the relationship. The power you have is over what you can do, from your end, to deal with co-dependency.)
Jenna, This is what my post was about yesterday....
When a person's is incapable of interdependence....And many of our spouses are incapable (add/adhd + other things like baggage from their past makes sure of this....It's not you Jenna!....It's not most of you! But when we accept the fact, that there is limited to no ability to move into this long sought for state of interdependence ...Then we can ask ourselves this question....What Now??
What now for me is breaking all of my bad habits of CoD and Mothering, & wishing for things, that for 10 years hasn't been possible....And work toward what is possible.....
I learn each day what is and isn't possible, we all do, so it's making the right decision's in the moment, that makes life peaceful, or not so much. Many of our spouses aren't as limited as we think when it comes to self awareness...The reason they don't want to communicate about sensitive relational things like interdependence is because they have zero faith in themselves to be able to go there, so why talk about something that brings them pain and uncertainty....They probably love us the only way they are capable, but they also know you are looking for something they can't give.....My wife does this exact thing in many ways...
In marriages like mine (and many more here) there are musts, for us to move forward at all.....1) Grace and forgiveness 2) Not counting wrongs, or making heart judgments 3) Acceptance of each others limitations in all things, especially communication....
When I work on myself, and accept her without giving advice (esp. w/ emotions attached that tells her she isn't acceptable)...Keep her feelings in consideration no matter how intrusive her chaotic life style can be at times...(I've learned I can actually smile at the things she does and says, Now that I am finding the peace that comes w/ acceptance of her abilities and inabilities in life) That is huge for me...I've been stuck in a mind that say's...it's got to be this way!...Not So, dear self...lol...
The problem with a servant heart attitude, when it is directed at someone incapable of not abusing it...CoD will automatically happen, and quickly I might add...I'm the poster child!....So I have to disengage psychologically from my normal, as it relates to her in the moment (will this word or action promote growth, maturity and unity??) I must stay available emotionally, and physically...Once I shutdown there, I'm just another huge part of the problem...Just administering tough love, when it comes to forcing accountability by walking away from her responsibilities....It's easier to discipline ourselves (manage a life of acceptance) to their realities in area's that are grey to us....But It's much more difficult in area's that are dear to us....I like regular love making, to me it's the most precious of all marital gifts....Where my wife loves affirmation and her version of quality time....(her version just means, she has to pick the activity;)....So I have to work much harder at being at peace when she goes all week, or longer, lost in her little world, where sex at this stage of life is more something to dread, than something to cherish.....And it works both ways....I have to actively speak affirmation to her, about her....She also love surprises, and gifts...But, affirmation is almost impossible when my focus is selfish in nature (what she isn't supplying me in the marriage), so the more I experience the peace of, and reality of, what she is truly capable of, the more my focus and thoughts can revolve around loving her in the ways she needs me to....
Yep Jenna.....Identifying the real problems is very important....But, finding a positive direction, that leads to the best possible option for the rest of lives....Is priceless!
Thanks for posting this material it's great stuff.....I hope your day is filled w/ Joy!
c
Thank you, Jenna
Submitted by Brindle on
This article confirms some things I’ve pondered at different times. H talks like we are a team, but he doesn’t live like we are a team. And I certainly don’t consider us a team at all, not after years of having to carrying all the tasks alone. What I see him living out is a lot of independence, not wanting to be inter-dependent at all. How could we be a team when he lives out day to day independence? It has forced me into independence, too. How could it not? Someone has to take care of all the things. If he isn’t, then I have to.
I’m trying to reframe my thinking so I can stop resenting him and counting all the ways he isn’t there for me. I’m working to just be proud of myself when I solve yet another problem all by myself. If he dies before I do or leaves me, then I already have a leg-up on the whole widow/single mom thing.
Living independently
Submitted by 1Melody1 on
(H talks like we are a team, but he doesn’t live like we are a team. And I certainly don’t consider us a team at all, not after years of having to carrying all the tasks alone. What I see him living out is a lot of independence, not wanting to be inter-dependent at all. How could we be a team when he lives out day to day independence? It has forced me into independence, too. How could it not? Someone has to take care of all the things. If he isn’t, then I have to. )
I have a letter I wrote to my husband telling him I want a divorce. It is 7 pages long. I have not given it to him. I just needed to get it all out one day. Anyway, by the very last page, I`d finally put it together in my head and while the first 6 pages were true, but somewhat gentle, I couldn't help but end with, "Brutal honesty? You are living a single man's life while doing as little as you can to maintain our marriage and family. That is harsh, but completely sums up how it feels on my end of things. You attend exclusively to your own personal-financial-emotional needs, give us as little as you can of yourself, get visibly annoyed when we ask for more and act sincerely surprised that we aren’t happy."
You are dead-on, Brindle. Our spouses say we are a team. They may even actually believe that. I can't imagine how. But they don't live that way. And like you, I now live like a single person with a roommate that I have to feed. It breaks my heart that I let this happen. Breaks my heart that I stay and let my daughter believe this is what marriage should look like. If she repeats my mistake, I will never forgive myself. On the other hand, leaving and co-parenting is another tangled web and so I feel stuck. And sad.
And, Jenna, this was a great article you posted. I was guilty of some co-dependent behaviors and am getting better and better at releasing them. Over time I truly have noticed a difference in myself and I have more peace of mind and self confidence. It is worth working on.
1melody1....
Submitted by c ur self on
As I was reading your post, I couldn't help but think about the effects of adhd, and the article I posted this morning...The big picture of the effects of adhd on a mind, is getting quiet clear to me these days...It takes a lot of awareness for anybody to live responsibly in life in general....Throw in a spouse to live in harmony with as one...more awareness....Throw in kids...more awareness...Throw in a mind that has limited abilities to stay on task (avoid distractions), to hear, to listen, to organize...etc....Then the level of awareness goes through the roof.....
I've often said that the best many people can do in this life, is not good enough to (makes them unfit) be joined as one flesh with another human...So when one of these minds (not necessarily add/adhd) follow's the natural desire's of the flesh into marriage, the partner of that person will always be telling your type of story, living your type of overworked life....Adhd it self isn't the problem, it's the refusal to own it, be aware of the effects on others....The reason there are success stories, isn't because of miracle drugs, or awesome therapists....It's because of awareness, and ownership....It's because someone cares enough to ask themselves the hard questions,,.What is being produced by my daily living of life?? How is my actions effecting other human beings?? Then taking the honest answers, and doing the work without excuse to put their energy into making sure they are a blessing to others, instead of a curse....The reason many of our spouses are curses to us, isn't because of fast minds...It's because they refuse to see...It's just easier to happily and blindly pursue their good times and tell them selves what an awesome person they are...Because real caring, creates accountability and work for us all....
c
Awareness and Ownership - c ur self
Submitted by 1Melody1 on
I absolutely agree with this, C. Like Melissa says, ÀDHD doesn't cause divorce, denial does."
I'm sure I sound like an angry person on these forums. I guess that's because I am in some ways now, though I am trying to release it. But I am mostly unbelievably patient, loving and understanding with those I love and have been for almost two decades with my husband. But that has its limits when understanding only ever goes one way. I spent years supporting, overcompensating and rationalizing (mistakenly when I didn't know what was happening), then years encouraging treatment and trying to find new ways to thrive as a couple (once I discovered it was ADHD symptoms wreaking havoc on our marriage), then years accepting that he will not see or do anything about his symptoms so the next move is heartbreakingly mine. And I feel I have a fairly decent grasp on how hard he works just to get through a day. I have a high tolerance for and appreciation of idiosyncrasies that make us all unique. I have enormous empathy for those struggling with the roadblocks ADHD can pose and for the woman in that excellent article you linked to today.
I truly believe he would be better off on his own without any financial, household or emotional expectations (even though my expectations are incredibly low). He says he wants the marriage, but he wants it with no or few obligations. Untreated, I think he probably is doing close to his "best." But he wants to remain untreated and really is so happy living on his terms. He does not seem to '"need" people or relational intimacy as most of us define it (time together, physical touch, meaningful conversations about real things, shared interests and goals, etc). He definitely does not want to be accountable to people any more than it takes to keep a select few on the sidelines as his supports. And I know he wouldn't see it that way because he can't or won't. That "refusal to see" you mentioned. It is the most frustrating part of it all.
Not even sure at this point what I set out to say except thank you for your wise words. :)