My husband makes up rules that drive me nuts. They mostly seem convenient to him.
For example, one day he called and left me a message that he was really hungry and hadn't had lunch. I took that to mean he wanted me to cook dinner and have it ready when he came home. No problem. But when he actually got home I was in the middle of dealing with 2 dishes and asked him to start the vegetable. He said "Not now, I"m in the middle of a game." Now, to me, there aren't any consequences for a paused or abandoned solitaire game. I said "Do you want the vegetables after we've eaten the rest of the dinner?" and he didn't answer me. I was violating the rules by expecting household tasks to be more important than computer solitaire.
There are things I can not do because I have physical problems. For example, I can't get up the ladder to the attic. But he says he can't go there at night because it has no light (It's May and it's not dark until after 8 o'clock) and on the weekend he "wants to relax." So our winter clothes are still in the closet and I can't hang up the summer clothes, so we're dressing out of the dryer.
The rule seems to be, "I'm too tired to do anything in the house after I come home" which of course, means I am expected to do it all. Then on weekends, it's "I want to have fun on the weekend" which means doing something outside of the house and not tackling any household tasks. When is it I can expect any help from him? It is painful for me to walk. Why am I expected to do all the housework and even mow the lawn? Mowing the lawn doesn't fit into the "rules" about when I can expect help around the house. The same rules apply to when we can discuss the problem, apparently never.
He says it's not because of the ADD, but just because we are both slobs. But he makes up these rules that make it sound like 10 minutes of helping every other week would be too much. I don't have the alternative of doing it all myself and his rules don't allow him to do it, or even discuss it. We don't have the money to hire someone to put the out-of-season clothes in the attic, and we live in a rented house so I can't make bigger closets.
So how to I get any help from him?
Mine's supposed to be the Stay At Home Dad....
Submitted by sapphyre on
And we have the same problem. While he does some housework, getting him to do things when they need to be done is hard. He's also often unwell, which doesn't help. (Mainly because it's "too hard" :P for him to do ordinary things like remembering to eat, sleep, and take his meds.)
Does anyone have a suggestion? We all know nagging doesn't work.
Timing is Everything
Submitted by Hoping4More on
My wife also has trouble doing things "when they need to be done." She's sometimes willing to do things whe SHE remembers/wants to/feels like doing them. Usually, when I ask her to do something, it is because I am already past my tolerance of waiting for her to notice it needs to be done. So, lately I have been trying to ask her to do something well BEFORE it "needs" to be done (translated as "when I need it to be done."). Sometimes that works. Or sometimes I just do it myself, because that feels better than getting frustrated everytime I see it NOT done. Sometimes if it's something I really want HER to do, I ask first ask if she will agree to do it, and then I get her to tell me WHEN she will have it done, and then I might ask her to put it in her calendar so she can remember without me having to remind/nag her. Then if it's not done, I say something like "Honey, you said you would do such and such by yesterday, and I see that it still has not been done, do you need more time?" To which she sometimes replies with some annoyance "OKAY! I'll do it" and then does it. Sometimes though, she will cordially reply - "Oh, sorry honey. I'll do it today" - where I'd much rather have her say "Sorry honey, I'll do it right now" - but THAT's never going to happen! And sometimes she just gives me excuses about why she didn't get to it and I have to negotiate another deadline and repeat the process yet again. Also, when she DOES remember to do something without my reminding her I make it a point to thank her and tell her I appreciate that she remembered, that I didn't have to remind her, etc.
He can't understand that some things have specific time frames
Submitted by Sueann on
The litter box has to emptied when it gets nasty (or the cats won't use it and then there are worse problems!). The trash has to go out on a certain day. If I have no clean underwear laundry has to be done that day.
These are things he doesn't comprehend. I wish I had your option to do it instead but sometimes these things are too hard for me. I've fallen in the laundry room and don't like to do laundry. He says he understands that but does that mean he does it?? He knew what was wrong with me when he married me; I didn't blindside him like he did me with the ADD.
He keeps his planner at work and I don't know that I have anywhere I can write anything down that is specifically dated, to help him remember.
Good Health and Self-Discipline
Submitted by Nettie on
1) Is your husband eating nutritionally sound foods, taking a supplement, getting exercise? Those things help my husband and me have more energy for chores. Also, if someone is depressed, they'd rather play video games (read in bed, watch tv, etc.) than do activities that take more energy; he may need a medical evaluation.
2) It takes self-discipline and a willingness to ask others for help. I accept my husband's help with household tasks and now accept he does chores differently than I do. He accepts my help with time management and also disciplines himself to do his chore list (which I write) first thing every Saturday. My mantra has always been, "Get it done then have time for fun!" I think it's starting to sink in :)
same thing here
Submitted by dont even talk ... on
we have the same problem. Sometimes my hubby will make up rules about where the comb is supposed to be, for instance, and then when it isn't there, he gets so angry - but who knew the comb was supposed to be in it's certain place. And these places often change.
It's really hard to know what the rules are going to be at any given point in time. Impossible.
who died and left him king?
Submitted by arwen on
When I was a kid and acted like your husband, my mother used to ask me, "Who died and left you queen?" Her point was that I wasn't entitled to make rules for other people, or enjoy any special privileges just because that was how I wanted it to be. I heard it a lot -- I was a saucy, selfish kid -- and whenever she said it, my mom would flatly refuse to "play along" with whatever I was trying to dictate.
Of course, you are not in the same position of authority that my mom was! But there are still ways that you can refuse not to play along with this "game". For example, just because your husband considers his solitaire game more important than your need for help with dinner doesn't mean you have to accept that standard. If he won't even negotiate with you about the standards, "include him out". This attitude on his part has NOTHING to do with his ADD. This is an issue of distorted priorities -- just like my problem when I was a kid.
Basically, the way I've dealt with this kind of situation is the opposite of "I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine". If I don't get reasonable cooperation from my ADHD spouse, I have no obligation to give him reasonable cooperation that he expects. If he is going to serve only his needs, I am not obligated to serve any of his, and don't. My ADHD husband and son have learned this lesson more than well enough, as have other people I know with ADHD. At one point with my husband, I had to behave *as if he wasn't there at all* and live as I would have if I were living by myself. Not getting the cooperation he expected was a really wonderful motivator to my husband. As soon as he understood that he would get things he expected if he cooperated with me and wouldn't if he didn't, his cooperation level would increase significantly.
The way I would handle the dinner situation you faced, if my husband had behaved this way, would be something along these lines: I would serve the dinner that I was in the middle of cooking as best as I could on my own -- NOT for HIS benefit, but for my own. In the situation you describe, it would probably involve not cooking a vegetable but just slicing half a tomato for myself, or serving raw carrots (I also keep a bag of cole slaw, and slaw dressing in the fridge, for such events, that's also quick). While we were eating dinner, I would explain that sometimes it's hard for me to cook dinner all by myself, and that if he isn't willing to cooperate with me when I need a little help cooking, I'm not going to cooperate with him and will stop cooking for him and just prepare my own food for me. Then I would structure upcoming meals so that it would be easy to transition my cooking plans from two servings to one if I asked for help and didn't get reasonable cooperation. (Take spaghetti, for example -- I make my own sauce -- I would make the sauce ahead and freeze it in single-serving ziploc/gladloc/rubbermaid/whatever containers -- since it takes only a couple of minutes to defrost in the microwave, the total time cooking isn't really any longer than if I made it fresh -- then if I didn't get reasonable cooperation, I would only defrost/warmup the sauce for me.)
You know that I sympathize with non-ADD spouses who say that they don't have time to do it all themselves, and they don't have time to clean up after the ADD spouse who won't bother to learn and follow directions and makes terrible messes. I know exactly how that feels! But there are ways to defend yourself. If the problem is that they can't remember how to do things, write up and post a set of instructions -- on/over the washing machine, on/over the dishwasher, on the shower door, wherever there is a procedure that needs to be followed. Every cabinet and drawer in my kitchen has a label on it that tells what's inside, so my ADDers know where stuff goes and don't have to guess. If you do this and they still can't get it right, try to take away their ability to make a mess -- HIDE whatever makes the job possible, like the laundry detergent. There was a period of time where I put baby-locks on the doorhandles of the cabinets I wanted everybody to stay out of ("open these doors and die").
As far as the freakish "rules" of the immature and self-centered ADHDer go, it often helps to "mirror" this behavior if you can. But even if you can't mirror, you can reciprocate. You have a right to self-preservation!!! To that end, you have a right to choose to be as arbitrary as your ADHD spouse is choosing to be, you have a right to be as unfair as they. (But NOT mean! It is possible to be arbitrary, unfair and egocentric without being mean -- sometimes it's a fine line, but it can be done.)
I know you don't have any money to spare. But perhaps there is a church or other youth group you might be able to call on occasionally for special jobs, for free -- like getting YOUR summer clothes out of the attic and putting YOUR winter clothes back in there for you. Make sure you are going to be there when they come over. If your husband is around when they arrive, explain to the young people that your spouse has a brain disorder and he believes that he doesn't have any time to go up into the attic himself, as well as why you can't do it yourself, of course. (Since these are perfectly true statements, they shouldn't cause you any embarrassment. And if the kids snicker at your spouse's absurd helplessness, all the better -- it's an objective third-party evaluation that doesn't reflect on YOU.) Offer the kids soda and cookies and it will be a minimal expenditure and they'll feel good about their work. And *don't* tell your spouse where you got the help -- just say that they are the children of some people you know. If you think he might ask them directly, suggest to the kids when you first speak to them that it would be best if they didn't converse with him, because of the brain disorder. If your partner isn't going to help you with the clothes transfer in and out of the attic, you aren't obligated to help him by telling him where you got the help!
I know this takes a lot of thinking and planning and structuring, and initially that can be hard when you are so exhausted. But as it becomes a habit, it becomes a lot less tiring and natural. I know you are in such a tough place, I don't know if any of this helps -- it worked for me, it has worked for others -- but obviously I don't know if any of it can help you. My prayers are with you, my dear.
"It matters not what someone is born, but what they grow to be." Albus Dumbledore
loved this advice
Submitted by brendab on
As far as the freakish "rules" of the immature and self-centered ADHDer go, it often helps to "mirror" this behavior if you can.
I think that many times I felt disregarded and went into self pity mode when some of this self centered ADD behavior occurred. I laughed my way through this post at how empowering it would be to have acted as you suggest. Ending the pity party and taking control of my life would have been so much better.
Thanks Arwen,
Brenda
I finally got him to talk to me about it
Submitted by Sueann on
He says he didn't refuse to help me with dinner but just wanted to finish his game. I say if he says no, that is a refusal. I still don't understand why it is important to finish a solitaire game and I still think no means no.
I told him that he made me feel like he loves his solitaire game more than me. He says he has a rule to win one game and then he'll stop. I have no idea why that is important. But I hope he understood that it hurts my feelings hen he refuses reasonable requests.
refusal doesn' t have to be explicit
Submitted by arwen on
If you needed the help NOW and your husband wanted to finish his game NOW, his choosing to ignore your need and play his game is an implicit refusal.
My husband used to have a big problem with the idea that some specific action or decision that he made on purpose could have specific and never-changing implied consequences that he didn't actively intend, BUT THAT HE WAS STILL RESPONSIBLE FOR. It took us a lot of time and discussion and analogies and some mirroring before he understood this idea -- as I recall, there wasn't any one great "aha" moment (although I think there was a situation at work where *he* was mad at somebody else for behaving this way, and complaining to me about it at home, that I think I seized upon and made us of in this ongoing campaign, that was something of an eye-opener to him).
Stick to your guns on this! Cause-and-effect problems are classic for ADHDers and in my experience addressing them is critical to the effort to develop an equitable and respectful dynamic.
"It matters not what someone is born, but what they grow to be." Albus Dumbledore
Does the mirroring help?
Submitted by Astrea on
It's something I used to do occasionally, but I always felt like I was being petty and bitter.
actions speak louder than words
Submitted by brendab on
Astrea,
If your intent is to teach, then I think it is very effective to act rather than explaining with words. I think that it is important to remove all negative emotion (petty and bitter, etc) and act matter of factly. Nothing wrong with protecting yourself and teaching someone through example.
Brenda
improvement is possible
Submitted by arwen on
Please believe me, I have dealt with most of the things you have outlined, and I sympathize with you. But with medication, counseling, hard work, time and patience, knowledge and true understanding of why your spouse behaves they way he/she does, it is possible to achieve really worthwhile results. It took my husband and me twelve years after his diagnosis (which I'm certain would have been significantly less if we'd had resources like this site, and if we'd realized his ADHD was complicated by Seasonal Affective Disorder, and if we'd had a counselor familiar with ADHD), but we have been able to achieve a happy, working marital relationship. It's not ideal, but how many marriages do you know that are?
A lot of our success has had to do with the *way* we've handled our interactions, the dynamics we've developed, with the help of the counselor. So, as I've recommended elsewhere, please seek counseling -- even if your wife won't go, it can help you deal with these difficulties.
"It matters not what someone is born, but what they grow to be." Albus Dumbledore
Thanks You!
Submitted by robinshusband on
For someone who is in the process of just discovering the impact ADHD has had on my life it is very encouraging to hear positive information and feedback. I don't know if the treatment I am getting will have any impact on my current relationship but I'm glad someone is posting that it is not all doom and gloom.
mirroring can help, motive and method matters
Submitted by arwen on
Astrea, mirroring can definitely help. I've used it successfully with my husband and son, and even with some limited success with my father-in-law (with the last, I needed some additional assistance from my mother-in-law, who got the message when he didn't, even though she didn't know why I was doing it) -- all three have ADHD. I can't promise it would work with everybody, though. The technique requires the ADDer (or someone near them who can talk to them about it) to be able to recognize that you are behaving in a singularly undesirable fashion when you mirror. I have to admit that I've known more than one ADDer who hasn't been this aware (note: all these cases were ADDers who were not taking medication or getting counseling).
I think to be successful that the mirroring has to be something more than just mimicking -- they are not the same thing. Mirroring is when you behave the same way they do in the same kind of situation, and thereby causing them the same problem they are causing you. Here's a good example, I think, of the difference I mean:
Since our kids are grown and moved out, my husband has developed the habit of putting all kinds of miscellaneous stuff at his "place" at the dinner table -- this I don't mind so much, but if I am preparing to serve dinner (which I typically only do three nights a week because of our schedules), and I ask him to clear away his stuff so the table can be set, his idea of "clearing away" is to simply shove it to another portion of the table. Even this I can live with, up to a point, but after several days, the collection of junk grows to the point where there is not enough room for two place settings, so if he is subsequently eating a meal by himself at the table, he shoves his junk in the direction of my "place" -- and (of course, considering his ADHD tendencies) leaves it there after the meal, because he isn't thinking about it and it isn't an immediate problem for him. So, after a series of individual breakfast/lunch/dinners, he creates a problem for me with the cumulative effect of his habit -- because I don't want to deal with his junk myself, since (a) I don't want to confuse him by moving things and (b) it's not my gol-darned responsibility in the first place!
It seemed to me that the obvious thing to do was to shove his junk back to his "place", and force him to deal with the growing collection, but all that happened was that the next time he sat at the table, he just shoved the junk back towards my "place"! At that point, I realized we had a different perspective on the problem. To me, the junk was an action-necessary problem as soon as it began occupying my "place" at the table. To him, the junk wasn't a problem until he had no spare area on the table to push it. By just shoving his junk back to his "place", I had NOT put him in the same situation I felt I was in.
Instead, I began putting MY miscellaneous junk on the table, too -- and when I needed space, shoving IT towards his "place". Now, we have had a very longstanding and very ironclad rule in our house of "touch Arwen's stuff and die", and my husband has learned through bitter experience that he should never ever ever mess with my stuff -- because there is *always* a good reason for why it is there, and if I can't find it because it has been moved or buried, my wrath is terrible to behold. (Please note, I am very careful about this and have disciplined myself never ever to leave my stuff in arbitrary, capricious or inappropriate places, so that there is no cause for complaint on his part.) So when he found my stuff at his "place", he knew he was going to die if he moved it. Now my actions were a more analagous mirror for his behavior -- I was shoving my stuff to his "place" and it was causing him a problem.
So, he approached me and said accusingly, "There's a bunch of your stuff at my place." And my response was to invite him to sit down and have a discussion with me. The discussion was very calm and Socratic in nature. I asked him what the problem was. I asked him whether he realized he was creating the same kind of problem for me. I pointed out I was only acting in the same manner than he had been. (For those who are asking, where did he put this stuff before the kids moved out, the answer was that he pretty much lost the stuff -- which I agreed was undesirable.) I declared (totally truthfully, which I think is important) that I didn't care whether we both kept putting our junk on the table and shoving it out of our way, and dealing with the fallout each time like we were right then, or whether we both stopped putting our junk on the table, or whether we kept putting our junk on the table but stopped shoving it onto the other's person's "place", or whether we settled on some other *equitable* arrangement -- and then I asked him what he would prefer.
What we ended up with was a sort of compromise -- it turned out that the main reason he was putting his junk on the table was to avoid having to think about where to put it. But he realized that a significant amount of the stuff didn't really need *all that much* thinking about. So he now only puts stuff on the table when he really can't figure out where to put it without a lot of thought -- and then periodically (typically once a week, on the weekend), he deals with the collection that's left as part of his regular weekend "to-do" list via his alarms in his PDA. But the collection never gets to be a problem for me anymore. I have to admit that I'm not keen to be sharing the dinner table with assorted hardware, papers and drug store items -- it offends my sense of order -- and if we happen to have someone over for dinner, I have to ask him to handle it on a special basis, but it's "good enough", as Melissa says, and I am OK with that.
As far as feeling petty or bitter, Brenda is absolutely right when she says that there is nothing wrong with teaching by example. And sometimes, that was the ONLY method that would get through to my ADDers. They simply could NOT understand some issues (because they found it impossible to appreciate the situations I or others were in from the opposing perspective) -- the only way to get them to understand was to simulate putting them in that situation. As long as your sole purpose it to teach, and not to punish or belittle or mock, I don't think there's anything wrong with this approach -- and I think my husband would agree.
Hope this helps clarify -- good luck!
"It matters not what someone is born, but what they grow to be." Albus Dumbledore
Thank you :)
Submitted by Astrea on
That was the kind of situation I thinking of. I'll definitely try it out - he's not on meds or having counselling at the moment, but can be surprisingly perceptive in certain areas. Hopefully, this will be one of those things he picks up on.
Thank you again, both you of you - I always find your comments helpful.
Negative Reinforcement
Submitted by Nettie on
Concerning, "Mirroring is when you behave the same way they do in the same kind of situation, and thereby causing them the same problem they are causing you," I don't agree that negative reinforcement is the best idea for this situation. People often display exacting (OCDish) attitudes or habits as a cover for fear or other discomforts. Although people do punish others as a way to manipulate behavior, I suggest there are more effective methods.
sometimes there aren't
Submitted by arwen on
Nettie, I certainly agree that negative reinforcement is not the most desirable way to tackle conflicts. I *always* try more constructive approaches first. But if I've tried and tried every other approach I can think of (and I have *many* "tools" in my toolbox), and I'm still not getting through, I think it's reasonable to try mirroring. It's true that it's not always effectiive, but there are enough times when it does that I think it should be kept "in the toolbox".
I find your comment "People often display exacting (OCDish) attitudes or habits as a cover for fear or other discomforts," interesting. I agree completely -- but I don't see that as a reason to avoid negative reinforcement, either. If my ADHD partner is making my life hell with his "exacting attitudes or habits", I think I have a right to insist that he find some other way to deal with his "fear or discomfort", and if constructive approaches don't work, that's too bad, but I still have a right to try to protect myself from his behaviors by teaching via negative reinforcement. My spouse expects me to deal with my own "fears and discomforts" without impinging on him, and I think it's appropriate to expect the same from him.
Finally, I take issue with your suggestion that mirroring is a punishment or manipulation. It's no more manipulative or punitive than the ADHD behavior that motivates it! It is a *teaching tool*. It is putting the shoe "on the other foot", when the ADHDer is incapable of doing it himself/herself. It provides a means for the ADHDer to experience a different role in the same situation they are causing, so they can become emotionally invested and enlightened as to the real-life consequences of such behaviors, which then serves as a basis of shared knowledge and understanding for discussion. Of course, I don't advocate mirroring in a way that would be excruciatingly or unnecessarily painful. But sometimes there's no substitue for direct experience, and sometimes there's no other way but mirroring for the ADHDer to get it.
"It matters not what someone is born, but what they grow to be." Albus Dumbledore
Unreasonable Expectations?
Submitted by Hoping4More on
So, I tried mirroring last night. My wife was on the computer and totally ignored me when I said "dinner is ready." Her computer is right next to the dinner table so I know she heard me, and she also saw me sit down to dinner. I waited one minute. Two minutes. Three minutes. Nothing. I knew that if I said something again, like "did you hear me honey?" she would have snapped at me - something she had done earlier which I didn't want to experience again so soon. So I got up from the table, got a book, put my iPod earbuds back in (I had them in while I was making dinner so I didn't have to listen to her yelling/cursing in frustration about what she was doing on the computer, which would have made me angry, since I have asked her many times not to do that when I am around), turned the music up real loud, then sat back down and started reading.
When she came to the table and I did not respond to her attempts to get my attention, she became VERY angry, pulled the earbud out of my ear, and started yelling. Not wanting to hear her yelling, I put the earbud back in, and she promptly pulled it out again. I said "What you are feeling right now is what I feel when you ignore me." She started telling me how it's very different, as I *intended* to ignore her while she didn't intend to ignore me.
Without going into all the details, I ended up putting the earbuds back in beacuse she just kept yelling and there was no way she would hear what I was saying, nor did I want to just sit there listening to her berate me. So then she stormed out, not coming back until after I went to bed. (Note: usually our dynamic is that I am the one who gets angry, yells uncontrollably and then storms out.) She slept on the couch last night and as I was leaving in the morning, I went over and said "I am leaving now. Do you think you will be able to talk about what happened later tonight?" She just shrugged. I left for work.
I have sent an email and she has replied. She basically said that since my intent was to cause pain and hers was not, what I did was *very different* than what she does. There's some truth to what she says - my intent *was* to cause her pain - so that she would experience firsthand what I tend to experience in response to her actions, which I have tried to tell her about, but which she doesn't seem to get. I wasn't necessarily looking for her to immediately jump up and come to the table (though that would have been nice, because it does feel very uncomfortable to be sitting at the table by myself, eating in silence, while looking at her back as she sits at the computer). But some kind of response to my saying that dinner is ready, maybe something like "Just a minute - I want to finish this," would have been nice. But maybe that's expecting too much?
I'm also thinking that I should have responded to her sooner *before* she got so angry. But I'm not sure what I might have said.
When she talks to me and I am in the middle of something and can't listen right at that moment, I usually say something like "Honey, I need to concentrate on what I am doing, can we talk at dinner?" Or something like that. And I have asked her for the same consideration. Her response to my request not to just ignore me is usually something like "It's OK for *you* not to listen to me when *you* are doing something." Implying that it *is* OK for her to just ignore me.
I understand that her brain is wired differently. I understand that it is very hard for her to stop something when she was in the middle of it. Is it unreasonable for me to think that she might at least acknowledge me and tell me she will be with me in just a minute, without snapping it at me, or is that also very difficult for someone with ADHD?
You and Me Both
Submitted by suz23 on
If your expectations are unreasonable, Hoping, so are mine. This pattern of "it's okay when I do it but when you do you're a big meanie" is the freaking story of my life. See if this sounds familiar: Since quitting his third job in as many years last year, my husband took over much of the cooking and housekeeping duty (BTW, the house is a DUMP and God help me if I pitch in as I'm "telling him he's not doing a good enough job". sigh.). As part of his cooking role, he's created a bunch of stupid arbitrary rules for the kitchen and pantry that he says make sense and make things easier for him. For example, when you put a storage container away (Tupperware kind of item), he insists that you actually snap the lid onto the container and stack it with others of the same size and shape. I prefer to stack the contatiners and lids seperately because it takes up a lot less room, and that's my habit. I learned that he wanted the lids and the contatiners put together a while back, and so I started putting the lids gently on top of the containers to give any moisture left inside the chance to evaporate, and have adjusted to doing that instead of what makes sense to me. Of course, that's not good enough, this morning, I got read the riot act for not doing it as he wanted. He bitched me out for not "doing it right" and said "I was not even considering him" and that "this is why only one of us should ever work in the kitchen."- totally irrational, of course. When I explained why I was doing it the was I was, he said I was only thinking of myself and not respecting him (the irony). I apoligized and said that I was trying to follow his rules, he said that he had the right to set those rules as he is the one" doing all the work in the kitchen" which is a pile. I still cook at least 2 nights a week and help him clean up every night. I also clean the kitchen on the down-low when I get the chance because it's so nasty. In any event, when then said that his comment about "only one of us should ever be in the kitchen" was inflammatory and took the "discussion" up a notch, he said that was not true and that I was the one getting angry, not him. Wow. I am SO TIRED OF THIS. WHY IS IT ALWAYS MY FAULT? If I am really such a loser and so hard to get along with, why is that that I am the one with the successful career, the healthy self-concept, friends, functional family relationships (besides him) and the ability to do many things well consistently? It takes everything I have sometimes not to just lay all that out and tell him what I really think and how screwed i feel in my marriage to him, but I know that would be it and the kids don't deserve to pay for my mistake. I will hang on until they are out of the house and then I will find the relationship I want and deserve. I am still mourning for my marriage.
Back to the point of the post- In contrast to the above situation, how about this: My husband is often on duty to take the kids somewhere (since he's been unemployed for the last 13 months while I bust my butt working 3 jobs now so we can afford the 2-income life we constructed together) and he's up on the computer screwing around; when he's clearly going to be late if he does not leave now, I say "Honey, are you keeping track of the time?" (he does not wear a watch) and he bites my head off, yelling at me that I'm a micromanaging nag and that he's "on top of it and does not need my help". Of course, then, in a couple of minutes he gets up, starts rushing around, yells at the kids to get ready to go, and rushes out the door (of course after coming back in at least twice because he forgot cellphone/directions/sunglasses/book, etc.). The kids report that contrary to my husband's boast that he's always "right on time, never too early like your Mom" that they are frequently slightly late to things or worse. Even my ADD son is frustrated with this. In any event, after having my head bitten off for gingerly, beleive me, reminding him about the time innumerable times, I've stopped doing it. Recently, as I watched the clock tick down and heard no movement from him, I sat quietly, waiting. I did not even subversively tell the kids to get ready to go (I know this puts them in a bad spot, but my hope was that if the kids were impacted he might alter his behavior; he cares about what they think and wants to do well for them although he could give a crop about me in that regard). The time ticked away and suddenly, I heard swearing and commotion, and he came storming down the stairs, yelling at the kids and rushing around. In all his hurry he, of course, had time to come in an yell at me for not reminding him about the time. He said "You're just sitting here on your computer (for the record, I was writing a chapter for a book- work- something many of us still do)- it would have taken you less than a minute to remind me of the time!" When I commented that he ususally bites my head off when I do that so I did not this time, he remarked "Well, it's just the way you do it- you're always so controlling- if you'd just do it nicely it would be fine."
This theme of "It's always your fault, not mine." is the mantra in our marriage. I used to defend myself against it and stand up for myself, but it's no use. If I want our family to stay together (and my purpose for this is is for my kids, not me at this point- I've given up on getting what I hoped for in my marriage to him), I have to take the high road and shut up. I *can* take that- I'm mature enough not to have to win every time (or pretty much, ever). I know I am the competent, even, reasonable person in my house and am confident in that as my kids are- they know they can count on me and that I will not forget important things or make them late to things that are important to them. My husband is the unpredictable, unreliable, volatile, impulsive, irrational, and arbitrary one, and my kids even admit that now. It's pathetic. I do worry that I'm modeling for my daughter that she should roll over and take verbal abuse from a man, but I do know from experieicne that it just gets so much worse if I push back- he's just incapable of taking responsibility, and eventually, if the blame train is going to stop, I, again, have to be the one to stop it.
I could go on and on, and already have. Sorry. Thanks for listening, for being here, and hang in there.
Saying it in a Nice Way
Submitted by Hoping4More on
I definitely relate to some of what you say, Suz. My wife often says to me "If you would only say things in a nice way, it wouldn't feel like criticism." Alsa, I haven't figured out what a *nice way* is. I'll ask, and she'll tell me. And I think I am saying it the ways she requests. And she still hears it as a criticiam. Maybe the next time she does that I should just say "I thought you said if I said it that way it wouldn't feel like criticism to you."
I too am asked not to nag, but also asked to remind her of things. There's a fine line between the two and I haven't yet quite figured out the difference. When is reminding not nagging? Rather than be snapped at, I have taken to not reminding most of the time. Unless it's really important to me.
I used to say, like you, something like "Are you watching the time?" The answer was always yes. And she still wouldn't make a move to get up until the exact second we are supposed to leave, and then she would have at least 5 minutes worth of stuff to do before leaving. And we would always end up leaving 10 or 15 minutes later than planned. Which bugged me to no end, as I felt like I was always waiting for her.
Lately, I have a couple of different approaches, depending on the situation. If we don't have to ride together, I'll tell her what time I plan to leave, and then give her a 5 minute warning, saying "I'm leaving in 5 minutes." If she is in the car with me, we leave together. If she's not, we go seperately. Since she hates to drive, and she likes to ride together, she's pretty good at getting herself into the car in those situations.
When it would be very impracticle for us to take seperate cars, I have taken to telling her, about an hour before we need to leave, the time I'd *like* to leave, saying - "the time I'd like us to be in the car is 5:15", or whatever. And the time I tell her is usually about 5 to 10 minutes before I actually think we should leave. I then give her a "5 minute warning, hon" reminder. And then we usually end up leaving 5 minutes *after* I want to leave. Since I usually allow a cushion when going somewhere, that most often works. Though sometimes I find myself doing some things *for* her before we leave, like fill her travel mug, get her water, feed the anumals (her chore), etc. so we're not even later.
And finally, when she has to leave a certain time for something and I am not going with her, I stay out of it.
The hard part is when she needs to do something on her own, like run an errand, *before* we go somewhere together. And it's getting later and later and she hasn't left yet for her errand, which I know is going to take her longer than she thinks it's going to take her. I haven't really figured out how to handle that one yet. If I remind her she thinks I'm managing her, or being nagging or controlling. If I say nothing and she leaves for her errand much later than I would have, I end up feeling stressed and worried she won't get back in time. And then when I get the call or text that says "I'm on my way- it took longer than I thought" or worse "I'm in the checkout line - it took longer than I thought," I end up feeling very angry. Because that happens more often than not. I understand from this blog that her ADD brain makes it difficult for her to learn from her experience that she should give herself more time to run errands or she will end up being late, and more often than not, be met with anger when she gets home. I'm sure she doesn't relish that any more than I do. Does anyone have a suggestion on how I might approach her with this issue?
My hubby often doesn't hear
Submitted by Miss Behaven on
My hubby often doesn't hear me when I call to him. He gets lost on a book or computer. My ADD son does it as well, I do it as well but not as often I think that's the mom brain keeping one ear open thing.
But instead of getting into power plays and creating drama I just walk over to them, put my hand on the shoulder to make sure they hear me and tell them "Time for dinner" or whatever. Then I go and sit down with the little one and we eat. They join us eventually. If not, the food goes cold on the the plate and they learn the hard way to come to dinner on time.
I too see a difference betwen intentionally hurting someone by choosing to ignore them and having a disorder that makes you simply not hear another person sometimes.
I Hear you...
Submitted by YYZ on
This was one of the greatest ADD discoveries. People have been complaining to me since I was a child that I was hard of hearing. I thought the hearing loss was due to years of car stereo appreciation (Impulsive buys, of course). Two many sources of sound = hearing nothing well. I still catch myself saying "Heh?" (Drives my wife Crazy) or "What?", even when I hear the request. That reaction is hard to stop. Noisey restaurants were the worst, because I could not hear what someone was saying, even if they were accross the table from me. I thought I had the hearing loss that relates to those environments. I had my ears tested about 3 years ago and the doc said my hearing was fine for my age. Who knew Adderall improved hearing...
My husband hears things no one said
Submitted by Sueann on
This is just recent and we don't know if he's just getting deaf (his mom is) or if it's an ADD thing.
He'll hear similar-sounding words to what I said, but they make no sense. We just laugh it off, but, since his job depends on listening to clients, it still worries us. We aren't sure what to do about it.
Get his hearing checked for
Submitted by Miss Behaven on
Get his hearing checked for sure, especialy if there is a family history.
I have found that I hear much better when on ADD meds. So if it isn't his hearing it might be time to medicate or to change meds.
Not Hearing vs. Not Responding
Submitted by Hoping4More on
Miss B - I definitely understand that ADDers often do *not* hear, and that a touch is often helpful to get their attention. In the recent occurance with my wife, she definitely *did* hear me, and when we talked about it later she said she thought I *knew* what she was working on. Implying that if I *knew* that she was working on something for *us* - which she was, but which I didn't *know* - then I should be OK with her not responding, which I wasn't - and wouldn't have been even if I did know what she was working on. My point is that if she *does* hear me (which she clearly *did*) then I want her to at least acknowledge me. I am not demanding she immediately come to the table (or whatever it might be I am asking) but I would at least like the courtesy of a response.
I think she gets it, but I'm not sure. And if she does decide to not respond to me in the future, I'm not exactly sure what I will say to her that will get my point across without her hearing it as yet another criticism. But I really do not like to be disregarded. My wife knows that. And so when she does disregard me, I feel very slighted. And again - by disregard, I do not mean "not immediately do what I ask when I ask it" but rather *not respond* in some form or fashion. I would even accept a non-verbal response of her putting her finger in the air to signal "just a sec." Anything to indicate she at least heard me say something.
Did you hear me hun
Submitted by Miss Behaven on
Does your wife have timers on her phone or her watch? That way you don't have to be her clock?
How about just a sweet and simple "Did you hear me hun?" Surley she shouldn't get mad at that.
Pulling yourself out of hyperfocus can be difficult and it can take a good 30 seconds sometimes. An example: I am reading this blog and hubby calls me from the other room with a question, I cannot respond to him until I have finished the sentence (or maybe even paragraph) I am reading. It just takes that long to get the ADD brain to respond and switch tasks. Part of my brain may even start working ont he question (while the other part finished reading and third part tells me to I ought o turn around and answer hubby) but until I get that sentence read I just can't tear (yes tear) myself away from the screen to answer. Even raising a finger can be difficult. My brain will finish that sentence before I can respond, even if I know its rude.
I don't like it, I know he is waiting, if I could respond right off the bat I would. But I have a screwed up brain that says "You must finish reading this before you can do anything else *evil laugh here*!"
I wasn't as bad for this when I was properly medicated, and hubby is much better for this with his meds.
Our son still struggles with this quite a bit, even with his meds. It drives his teacher nuts that he needs to finish what he is doing before he responds to her (such as finishing coloring in the flower purple and put down the crayon before he looks up and answers her question)
Maybe you guys could work out an agreement, such as you give her a full minute to respond in some way and if she hasn't then you can repeat yourself?
In my house:
Hubby (in living room): What's for dinner?
Myself: *Reading blog*
Hubby: *continues to toss toys into the basket in the livingroom while he waits*
tick tock tick tock (myself finishing the sentence I am reading)
Myself: We need to use those tomatoes before they go bad. How about tomoato pasta?
Myself: *turns off computer while I wait*
tick tock tick tock *Hubby finishes tossing toys into the basket in the livingroom*
Hubby: Sounds good!
Myself: Son! Come help your dad do the dishes so I can cook dinner!
Hubby: *wanders into kitchen to start dishes*
Myself: *peers into pantry while I wait*
tick tock tick tock *Son hyperfocusing on game with his little brother*
Myself: Boys? did you hear me?
Youngest Son: Do I have to help with the dishes?
Myself: (to younger boy) No you can clean up the game. (to older boy) Its time to help your dad with the dishes, move it mister.
Older Son: Finishes his move in the board game, then says Okay okay I'm coming
Re: Did You Hear Me
Submitted by Hoping4More on
Thanks, Miss B. That answers my original queation of "Is it reasonable for me to expect my wife to acknowledge me, or is that difficult for someone with ADHD?" I hear that the answer is yes, it is reasonable, but the response might take longer than I think. I often find myself saying "Did you hear me, hon?" when I don't get a response. I really *am* learning that it really *does* take a minute for someone with ADHD to respond because it can take a minute to disengage, or take a minute to formulate a response, or both. Thanks for reminding me of that. I so appreciate your posts. They give me a good idea how my actions and words might be perceived by someone with ADHD. And they also help me understand how an ADHD brain works. I am so glad you are participating on this blog.
You're doing great! I wish I
Submitted by Miss Behaven on
You're doing great! I wish I could tell you wife how hard you are working to be a great hubby!
Thanks!
Submitted by Hoping4More on
I wish you could tell her, too!
mostly reasonable
Submitted by arwen on
Hoping, the only part of your expectations that *might* be unreasonable has been addressed by MIss B, that it really can be extremely difficult for ADHDers to pull themselves out of hyperfocus. And, the opposite can also be an issue: my ADHD husband can actually completely lose his train of thought in the time it takes him to recognize that I've called to him and figure out what he should respond, even when the only response required is a simple OK. So I feel that the non-ADHD spouse does need to make some allowance for these aspects of the situation, in fairness to the ADHD spouse.
To address this, we've made a deal that when he is going to be working on something where he really needs to maintain his train of thought, he lets me know up front (if I am with him) or leaves me a note (if I'm not), so that I can be more sensitive to his need not to be interrupted with anything but an emergency. Otherwise, if he has heard me, he owes me a response, out of simple common courtesy. (Note: that doesn't always mean that I actually *get* one -- but when I don't and I complain about it, I don't get an argument, either, at least I get an apology.) I'm not expected to be a mind-reader and magically know what he's working on without being told. (Again, reality doesn't always match the expectation, but he doesn't get mad and he does apologize, he does accept that his behavior when this happens is a problem and inappropriate.)
But these considerations aside -- in my opinion, your wife is totally off-base on this question. Courtesy and good manners shouldn't be used only when it's easy or convenient! In fact, it's often the case that good manners are most needed when things *aren't* easy and convenient. The *whole point* of courtesy and good manners is to make less-than-easy interactions easier and smoother through polite conventions that everybody accepts and work the same way for everybody! as well as to reduce inconvenience to both parties in a fair and reasonable way.
You *were* being "mean", I agree -- because you were mirroring her being "mean". Whether she realizes it or not, your wife is being "mean" to you when she doesn't bother to respond, even though she has heard you. She's not recognizing the inconvenience she is causing you. She is not acknowledging that she is making a conscious choice to be ill-mannered in order to satisfy her own agenda. Her not responding was just as intentional as yours, and unless she has the same kind of problem I mentioned previously, therefore just as mean. And just because *she* doesn't think of it as being "mean" doesn't mean it isn't! After all, there are unkind people out there in the world who think it's funny instead of mean to ridicule or hurt others -- but regardless of what *they* think, they are still being mean. Your wife does not get to be the sole arbiter in your relationship of what is "mean" and what isn't. In my view, if it hurts you and she does it anyway, and she doesn't have an awfully good and legitimate excuse, it's "mean".
Since ADHD can sometimes short-circuit good manners, it may be that a non-ADHD spouse and an ADHD spouse need to work up a special set of manners together that they both agree to abide by that they can both achieve, or negotiate what courtesies will be extended to the other partner under what conditions -- but the effort required by each should be roughly the same and the actual implementation of these good manners should *not* be discretionary once they are agreed upon.
This was an area where my husband and I had a lot of trouble. He was raised more leniently in this regard than I was, and although his manners were OK when we married, they got pretty bad as his ADHD resurged in mid-life. It took a long time and a wearying, infuriating, seemingly-endless lot of arguing for my husband to eventually recognize that he had a double standard and that his manners needed rehabilitation. He has worked long and hard to improve his manners in recent years, and I give him a lot of credit for his efforts and his success. He may never be quite as "genteel" as the family I was brought up in, but it's quite "good enough". So change *can* be achieved.
In my experience, though, this issue is not a simple battle or two, and presto! things get better -- for us it was pretty much trench warfare over many years. It can take a very very long time for an ADHDer to perceive that a gross imbalance in their expectations of their spouse's manners and their own manners is unjust. Dig your foxhole, stand fast and use every opportunity to whittle away at the ADHDer's misperception that they shouldn't have to make an effort to be polite, while being prepared to offer and negotiate an amended basis for mutual consideration that could be acceptable to you both.
One final word -- I hope you don't feel your "mirroring" was a failure and become discouraged from using this technique in the future. Sometimes the only thing the mirroring accomplishes is that it gets the ADHDer to engage on the issue, but I believe that even that is better than letting it fester unaddressed. At the same time, I would like to re-emphasize that it really should be a tactic of last resort, because it does have a significant potential for conflict even while it can also provide a eye-opening view. It's important to avoid acting out of spite, or pique or emotional turmoil. In my experience, mirroring is generally not successful under those conditions -- ideally it should be done as a planned-ahead, calm and carefully thought out sequence of actions. Your description sounds like you did in fact do some planning ahead, which is good. You may want to consider working with a counselor to hone your mirroring skills, e.g. role-playing, to achieve better results.
And good for you for keeping your temper!!!
"It matters not what someone is born, but what they grow to be." Albus Dumbledore
Not Unreasonable
Submitted by Hoping4More on
Thanks, Awren, for helping me see that I am not being *too* unreasonable. :-) I'm sure my wife would not agree with what you said, though. The mere fact that I *planned* to cause her pain by mirroring makes her think it was *much* meaner than anything she does, and she even said it made her question my ability to love! "How could you *do* that to someone you love?" When I told her it felt like that was the only way for me to get her to see how *I* felt when she ignored me, she didn't appreciate that I set out to teach her a lesson, and she also said "That's something you do with kids!" She was *really* insulted that I thought that was the *only* way for me to get her to see how I felt. I wasn't quite sure how to responed to that.
We have moved past it in that we have "made up." I apoligized that my intentionally ignoring her caused her so much pain. And I think she came away feeling how much her ignoring me affects me. And *that* is a good thing. I don't think she fully understands how her ignoring me is in any way *mean* though. It seems like I am going to have a long, hard "fight" ahead of me to get her to see how her actions sometimes *are* mean. But I don't think she ever sees her behaviors as mean. I gave her some very clear examples during our fight of ways I think she has been mean in one of the emails I sent her, to suggest that I am not the only one in this relationship who is sometimes mean - like when she intentionally insults me by calling me names like "controlling" or when she snaps at me, But I don't think it has registered.
Thanks for encouraging me, Awren. I will not give up!
the end justifies the means
Submitted by Miss Behaven on
I think for the ADD brain, or maybe as a coping mechanism, we see intention as important as or more important than actions. Because we have a disorder that affects our ability to act, we place the importance on intention. This is why your wife (and I as well, I must say) see a big difference between intentionally ignoring someone to intentionally hurt them, and unintentionally ignoring someone without the intention to hurt them.
I have often wondered why once I explain to someone how my intentions were not meant to cause harm they are still upset with me. If hubby does something that upsets me and he explains that was not his intent, my “upset” goes away as I know he didn’t mean it. I can easily forgive hurtful words or actions if I know they were not intended to be hurtful. I have a harder time with actions that I know were intended to hurt, in fact the hurt is magnified about a million times if I know the hurt was deliberate.
I have been learning that for the nonADD person, action is more important that intent. Even when you know someone did not mean any harm, you are still full of “upset” and can’t or won’t let it go.
For the ADDer it is not the result, but how you got there and why. For the nonAdder it seems the result is of greater importance and why and how is of little consequence. (The whole “the end justifies the means” argument)
Interesting food for thought.
Oh wow,
Submitted by Astrea on
I was ranting recently about how my fiancee thinks "I didn't mean it!" is the magic cure-all. Now I know why :D
I have to say, I love reading your posts. They give me a much better insight into my fiancee's behaviour and actions (or lack of!) Thank you for sharing, you've got no idea how much some of your posts give me comfort.
We Speak Different Languages
Submitted by Hoping4More on
This is so true. I think we just speak different languages. (And yes, we have taken a look at "The Five Love Languages" book - and it has helped to a degree.)
Miss B, thank you for helping me to understand even more clearly *why* a person with ADHD might put so much more emphasis on intentions - because ADHD affects your ability to *act.* That makes perfect sense to me. I try not to take my wife's actions *personally* when she doesn't *intend* to cause hurt. But sometimes they hurt nonetheless. I think she is beginning to understand that. That also helps.
Maybe you can help me understand something else. I feel like I am working hard to understand my wife's behaviors so that I don't take them personally. I recently asked her (during one of our calmer moments) if she was doing the same - working to understand my behaviors and not take them so personally. For example, when I make what I think is a *simple* request, and she hears it as critical, is she attempting to understand that I don't *mean* to be critical, and so, not to *take* it critically? I really wanted to know whether she was "trying, but not succeeding" or "not trying." because it is clear to me she still takes so much of what I do "personally" - i.e. not the way in which I intend it.
To my surprise (because she has told me that she has been working very hard on her ADD), she answered "no." She said she was *not* working to do that. I think my response was something like "hmmmmm." Which she took to mean I think am "better" than her because I am working to not take things personally, etc. And I tried to explain that I didn't think I was "better" than her, but that I did think if I were working to understand her better and not take things so personally so that I would not be so frustrated and angry as a result of her actions, that it would be nice if she was attempting to also understand me better so as not to misinterpret *my* actions. She did not agree.
I am now thinking of it in terms of our speaking two different languages, or at least two different dialects. It feels to me that I am working to become proficient in her language, and that she *expects* me to do so, but that she is not working to become proficient in *my* language. Also that she thinks I have no right to expect her to do so. That feels like a double standard to me. I'm thinking part of it may be because she is afraid she will not succeed?
How do I continue the conversation with her at this point?
Your wife has only just begun
Submitted by Miss Behaven on
Your wife has only just begun treatment for her ADD. It takes a lot of work and a long time to get to a point where you can really turn outward and start working on the things you need her to.
ADDers suffer from a lack of self-awareness. Someone who was diagnosed as an adult with ADD might not speak their own language, let alone yours! Think of how a small child will get angry but not know why. In some ways an un-treated ADDer is like this.
(I hate using the child comparison because it is degrading to be compared to a child but since so many non-Adders use this comparison I will try to use it as a way to speak your language)
The untreated (or just begun treatment) ADDer is not self aware enough to understand their own why’s and wherefores, reactions, thoughts and feelings. Until that ADDer has reached a point of self-understanding, they cannot then begin to understand a completely different point of view from someone else. How can I understand you if I do not understand myself? How can I compare you to you me if I do not understand me, I have nothing to compare to.
Your wife has inner work, self work to do before she can put energy into understanding you. As she learns more about herself, her reactions to you will improve. Just as the child begins to learn why he gets angry and how to deal with that anger, your wife will begin to learn why she gets defensive and how to deal with it.
The light bulb moment you want to her to have will not come the way you want it too. Or the way it would for a non-ADDer. Her light bulb moment about how she reacts to the outside world and other people has to come from the inside to the out, not the outside to the in.
It seems to me that your wife could use some cognitive behavioural therapy. This is where the ADDer learns to have an awareness of her inner thoughts and feelings. Her reactions. The reasons behind those reactions and how to change the reactions. You learn to change your internal dialogue.
I went to cognitive behavioural therapy (CBT) for two years. My hubby had been going for three and he could still use some more. Neither of us are totally there yet, and we may never be. Much damage has been done. It takes more than a few sessions to undo decades of self loathing inner dialogue, knee jerk reactions, and feelings defensiveness.
The best thing you can do is to show your wife she has no need to be so defensive. Not by telling her “You’re wrong! I’m not critiquing you!” (see the problem there?) but by finding the things she does and says right and making a big deal out of them. Even if it “stupid” little things. By encouraging her and being patient with the process.
By not expecting her to do it the way you would, at the pace you would and by not expecting her to be working on the same things you are. Just because you are in a place (mentally, emotionally) where you can work on your reactions, doesn’t mean that she is. Lead by example, not by sitting her down and telling her she is doing it wrong or not fast enough or not in the order that you would.
Hubby has gone through a different process in his CBT than I did, and we have the same therapist! People are snowflakes, each is different, not cookie cutter-ed dough.
Please understand she has to un-learn everything before she can re-learn anything. This is slow, painful, and difficult and requires much encouragement, love and support.
I would not continue the conversation in the way you have been. I would make sure that she saw I was trying to see her point of view, I would speak to the fact that my intentions were good, I would be encouraging of the good she does, pick my battles with the bad things, work on one or a few things at a time, and not expect us to be on the same page working on the same thing.
Most importantly: I would speak of her intentions, validate that you know she does not mean harm, and then speak to ways you can work together to insure that her intent and her actions pair up.
The best thing you can do for her is help her to learn to change the toxic inner dialogue, anyone who feeling constantly criticized and defensive has a lot of self hate in her thinking. She needs to learn to change her thoughts of “Oh no he’s mad at me again, its going to be a fight, I’m so stupid, I’m so ugly, I do everything wrong, I can’t do anything right, I know he hates me, he must hate me, I hate me” into something from which she can feel safe and self loved and loved by you. Until she learns to not have theses kinds of thoughts how could she ever have a healthy sit down and discuss the topics you wish to talk about?
Ask her this “What things would you do if you knew you couldn’t fail? If you could do anything at all and knew for certain you wouldn’t fail, what would you do?” watch her reaction.
http://drphil.com/articles/article/4
http://www.articlesbase.com/self-help-articles/how-to-calm-down-easily-some-zen-steps-608119.html
http://psychology.suite101.com/article.cfm/letting_go_of_toxic_shame
http://www.topsynergy.com/relationships_articles/0004.asp
http://www.hypnosis-for-life.com/internal-dialogue.html
Wow!
Submitted by Hoping4More on
Miss B,
Again I am so impressed with you answer. The two things I was most struck by in your response are:
Most importantly: I would speak of her intentions, validate that you know she does not mean harm, and then speak to ways you can work together to insure that her intent and her actions pair up.
and:
Ask her this “What things would you do if you knew you couldn’t fail? If you could do anything at all and knew for certain you wouldn’t fail, what would you do?” watch her reaction.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Sometimes intentions are not enough
Submitted by Sueann on
Sometimes action is really needed. Let me give you an example.
We live in a rented house. He does no housework, I struggle with it because I have mobility difficulties. Right now it's a terrible mess. There is a problem with out wiring and our stove is not working. (We both like to cook, but it's hard to make good homecooked meals with a microwave and an electric frying pan.) The problem is our house is not up to city codes (which, believe it or not, do regulate neatness and how much stuff you can have in your closets). We can't have the landlord come and fix the wiring until it's cleaned up.
Landlords, bosses, the IRS, the electric company don't care what your intentions are, they just want the person to do what they agreed to
He can have all the loving intentions in the world. Now he just has to do the work or we'll never get our stove fixed. How can I facilitate action when action is needed? I really don't care what his intentions are.
5 Love Languages book
Submitted by Sueann on
I liked it a lot but my ADD hubby could not relate to it.
Before we were married, he told me frequently how much he loved me, etc. He was so mushy that our co-workers complained. He also drove me 30 miles home and picked me up the next morning. My language is "Acts of Service" so that really spoke to me more.
After marriage (we no longer worked together; he got a "real job") he stopped doing his job and got fired. He drove me to work at both my jobs, but did not work himself. He also did not do dishes, laundry, etc. So he was not speaking my language. I still don't think he understands how important it is for me for him to work and support me, at least until I finish school.
I often asked him if I was speaking Russian to him, he just looked at me blankly when I asked him why he was not trying to find a job. He's been working over 2 years but it still hurts.
two different languages
Submitted by arwen on
A good description!
I agree that you're basically right in your perception that there's a double standard if your spouse expects you to become proficient in her language without having to make a like *effort* to learn yours. (Please keep in mind, it's really not achieving equal proficiency that counts as much as making an equal effort.) But as you describe it, your wife has a lot on her plate right now. Bear in mind that you have always understood how your thinking process works -- but she has not had the advantage of understanding how her thinking process works. Now, with treatment, she has the opportunity to finally do that, and to modify her thinking processes as well. She needs to get a firm handle on how and what her brain can and can't do, including communication skills, before she can really begin to tackle understanding *your* perspective and the way *your* brain works.
With my husband, even though it was a double-standard, I let this one ride for a while until he had a better appreciation and control of his own mental capabilities under treatment and counseling. He just had no frame of reference for "learning my language", and it really was simply beyond him at the beginning. You may need to do the same kind of thing temporarily, and just continue the conversation in her language only for a bit more time.
"It matters not what someone is born, but what they grow to be." Albus Dumbledore
Good Suggestion
Submitted by Hoping4More on
Thanks, Awren. That makes sense. We did spend some time yesterday talking about how her brain works. I shared some things I have read here, especially some of the things Miss B wrote (thanks again, Miss B). I think she really appreciated hearing that I am coming to understand what she experiences, and especially that I understand that because her brain works differently, that some things are much more difficult for her - such as social situations, staying organized, etc.
End justifies, or is all that matters...
Submitted by YYZ on
Wow... Miss Behaven, you stopped me dead in my tracks with this one. I have never been able to explain this difference between me and what seems like the rest of the world.
Ex 1: I hurt my wife, she confronts me, I explain myself the best I can as to how all these pieces of the puzzle (+'s and -'s) came together and ended up scoring < 0, or a NEGATIVE Overall, and the END Result is her pain. My wife is hurt by MY actions, intentional or not, and my formula seems to be an Excuse, not Explanation, and this makes it worse. The Cause is: Black/White, 1 or 0, Yes or No and so on to her and I know (as my ADD Brain tells me) nothing is that simple, but she cannot move on so easily...
Ex 2a: My wife blows-up at me, auto-confrontation, I am stunned and unable/unprepared to respond which only justifies her postion, based on my lack of response. Later she realizes she over-reacted about the issue, because (Explains the puzzle) and never intended to hurt me. I easily accept the apology and never bring it up again. I know that she did not mean to hurt me.
Ex 2b: When I see an action deliberately taken that may not cause hurt in and of itself, but will be the first of several actions leading to an eventual bad outcome I will be angry because I see the intention as planning to hurt someone or premeditated. That sends me through the roof. Which explains my road rage, a bit, as I see the careless driver weaving around like the rules don't apply to them and I get so angry. I control my rage better than the old days, to protect my family, and think to myself that the stupid/selfish driver will one day reap what he/she has sown.
My view of right/wrong TOTALY depends on the intention, I think (again My ADD Brain) that without all the facts to support the intent to hurt, you cannot justify the anger, and therefore you should shed the anger in a reasonable time because I did not intend to hurt you. I will say again this is how my brain views Of course you can forgive me or not, but if you choose to forgive, I feel it is wrong to keep what I have done as ammo for a future "In your face" moment. This misuse of forgiveness will send me into guilt/anger thing that is hard to explain.
Your post is great, and I thank you for putting it together...
Intention matter. AND action matters.
Submitted by arwen on
Any specific suggestions would be appreciated
Submitted by Sueann on
My husband, as I've posted, does not believe he should have to do household chores after work because he's "too tired." Seems to be a common problem. I know ADDers have to put more effort into "keeping it together" than the rest of us.
I'm working full-time right now too, although I get home a couple hours before he does. So how can I enlist his help in getting our house "landlord ready" so that we can get our stove fixed? Progress is very slow and I visualize us cooking outside on the propane stove when it's 30 degrees in December.
how tired is too tired
Submitted by arwen on
I used to get this all the time from my husband, too. And of course, we all know what it's like to be tired, and most of us can understand how any disability or disorder or abnormality can make life harder and make one even more tired. I know you do, Sueann, through your posts.
I took a leaf from my own personal experience with tired. Basically, I find there are three basic kinds of tired: sleepy tired, where both your mind and body are tired and you need to go to bed or at the very least take a substantial nap; physical fatigue, where your mind is still active and alert, but your body is out of steam; and mental fatigue, where your body is cranking along OK but your brain is fried.
I told my husband that if both his brain and body were worn out, he needed to go to bed -- even if it was only 6pm. He'd protest that if he did that, he'd wake up at 5AM and not be able to get back to sleep. My response was that if he couldn't get back to sleep, he obviously wouldn't be tired anymore, and he could take care of some chores during those early hours before work, refreshed and ready for the day. At first he was skeptical, concerned that it would cause him to be more tired in the latter hours at work -- but he found out that wasn't so. Obviously, your spouse's situation may be different, but it may be worth giving this approach a try. In my experience, anybody who isn't too tired to watch TV or play games or read books or pursue other entertainments for several hours in the evening instead of going to bed isn't really too tired to get a few chores done.
For fatigue that is only either mental or physical, I find that I don't need, and none of my ADHDers really need, a rest of several hours (again, if you're that tired, go to bed!). But at the end of a long work day, 15 or 20 minutes may not be enough to recoup either. We typically take a 30-60 minute break, *in addition to dinner prep and eating time*, when we come home in the evening (typically the break is before dinner). We make sure we don't eat a big heavy meal that will make us groggy, and then we have enough energy to get some things done before bedtime. Sometimes when my husband claims he's too tired, I say, OK, how much break do you think you need? I usually let him take that much plus a little more, and then I say, OK, time to get some things done now, you've had as much break as you thought you needed and more.
Another technique that I find has worked pretty well is the "just one more thing" approach. My husband used to ask me how I could get so much done and keep going when I was tired. I told him I always asked myself if there was just one more little thing I could do and get out of the way -- surely I had enough energy for that. The same idea can be applied to the ADHD spouse -- surely they have enough energy for just one little thing. After a while of doing this with my spouse, he found that most of the time after he'd done one little thing, he actually could do another little thing -- and then eventually, another. It was sort of like immunizing him to the effort of chores at home in the evening.
My husband used to think that being tired ought to automatically get him off the hook. I pointed out to him that I was tired too! But things still needed to get done, and sometimes that means doing stuff even when you're tired. On the other hand, sometimes it was obvious that he was so wiped out that it was all too likely he'd do the wrong things or possibly even hurt himself, and there's no percentage in that -- so I'd suggest he knock off for the evening. I tried to gauge how tired he really seemed, and then make my suggestions about that evening's path forward when it seemed he had recovered enough from the day's toils to listen. If he still seemed a big fatigued, I'd suggest some minor tasks -- if he seemed to have recouped to a fair degree, I'd suggest something bigger.
Don't know if this helps any -- mostly it's a question of seizing the opportunities, I guess, and seeing if you can unearth any if they don't appear on their own.
"It matters not what someone is born, but what they grow to be." Albus Dumbledore
Success!!
Submitted by Astrea on
With my fiancee working on the road, having families that live two hours apart and currently living separate, one of the problems that has always come is the courtesy call - when running late or the simple 'I'm here safely.' I do it, he doesn't (even though saying he will) and this has caused some serious worry for me when there's been news of a truck accident on the news.
So I stopped making the calls. He likes me to make them whenever I'm driving more than an hour (this happens often, most of my friends are out of town and I like to drive) whether he's at home waiting for me or not.
It only took a week. I would let him know that I was planning to drive somewhere, but not call him when I got there. Or if I did call, I would wait several hours.
When we saw each other on the weekend, he brought it up, told me that he hated worrying about me, that it wasn't fair to make him worry like that when a simple phone call would ease his mind. I asked him how he would feel if he'd had to go through it every day for almost five years. He said that five years was far too long to expect someone to go through that every day and I (hopefully gently) pointed out that I had. We discussed it a bit further, he promised to try to make more of an effort and I tried to act like I believed it.
This last week, I think I have a more accurate record of his movements than his bosses do! He's rung every evening when he finishes up, several times during the day to just check in and this morning I was woken at 6am because there had been reports of a fatal truck accident and he wanted me to know he was safe!
So thank you for the advice, it worked wonderfully. I just hope that it's something that's ongoing and doesn't fade off after a few weeks or months.
That's great! I haven't had
Submitted by Hoping4More on
What worked for me,
Submitted by Astrea on
was the analogy of a car accident. The driver of the car that lost control on slippery roads didn't mean to lose control and wreck another car, but it happened anyway and there's still consequences. Before that, I used examples like stubbing your toe and dropping a glass while doing the dishes.
If you can find an analogy to something your wife can relate to, then it may help you get the message across.
Good luck!
One of us has to be crazy...
Submitted by Kkleo on
Some days I find myself wondering - or rather, hoping - if my boyfriend spends his days in some mirror universe, in which case I could understand him and at least try to make things better.
Both of us have been diagnosed with ADHD a few years ago (he has the hyperactive subtype, with OCD-esque overtones; I am inattentive). We are both taking medication and I am seeing a therapist (he stopped seeing a therapist almost a year ago when he became unemployed); we are also working with a couples therapist, which I am paying for.
One could say that we face all the typical ADHD couples issues - the lateness, forgetfulness, lack of follow-through, and putting an empty milk carton back in the fridge from my side. From his side... let's just say, I long for the days when I could describe it with a sentence or two.
He has an image of himself as an organized, always on time, positive, "life of the party", "no complaining; just do it", "people" person. He loves to juxtapose this image with how he perceives me: disorganized, always late, no direction in life, unable to plan ahead, unreliable, "too clueless to get along with people", confrontational, too opinionated and ALSO not opinionated enough... I can keep going, but this should get the idea across.
And then there's this: We've been together for 3 years, during which time I've always been employed (and very well paid), I received my MBA from a top ten school while working full-time; after getting my MBA, I left my job at a top consulting company and accepted a job at a start-up; when the start-up started failing, I was asked to join a team of colleagues at a different company. And when that venture was failed as well (welcome to the economy of 2008-2009), the president of a company I used to work heard about it and recommended me to the company I am with now. My boyfriend (an attorney) left his job a year ago and hasn't made strides in getting another one: he doesn't want to just settle for some job he doesn't love. During the past year, I've been buying all the groceries, cooking and cleaning after all meals, paying for everything when we go out, and the only sign of appreciation that I've seen is his complaining about the dinner being late, the kitchen getting too messy, and about me, in general, not helping him get motivated and get a job.
I should mention, we DON'T live together. We got close to moving in about 6 months ago but he wanted me to SELL him on the idea of moving in with him. Apparently, it is too hard for him to leave his apartment where he's been for 10 years. Since I don't really want to live with someone who needs to be sold on living with me, we each still have our own place.
He criticizes me constantly, as if his brain is searching for something to pick on. He called me at 11:30pm two nights ago to demand an apology for putting an empty carton of milk back in the fridge. He wanted an apology for causing him disappointment when he realized there was no milk.
If he asks me to do something, no matter how minor or ridiculous, saying no means I don't love him or care about him. If I'm feeling tired and falling asleep at 1am while he's trying to get me to watch something on TV, it's really because I don't care about him, not because I've been working 12 hour days for the past week. It's my fault that he goes to bed too late; it's my fault that he doesn't wake up early enough, my fault that he is late to things -- apparently, he never used to be late before he met me, and my fault that he doesn't feel like talking to his friends. He wants me to look for job posting for him, work on his cover letter, convince him to attend events he doesn't feel like attending... When can I find time to do all this AND do my job? Of course, according to him, if I did love him, I would find time -- my inability to plan and manage time is the reason why I don't. If I tell him that I HAVE to do something at work, that I have no choice, he says that I don't know what I'm talking about; that I "don't know how things work" because I'm young and haven't been in the "real world" long enough. He is 8 years older than I am, but I graduated college when I was 20 and I've been working since. I have more work experience than he does -- I didn't take 3 years off to go to law school and then 2 more to pass the bar.
It seems like a crazy thing to say at the end of this longer than intended post, but I do love him. We've had some really great times together and, most of the time, I feel that we can work through this, that things will because easier once his life is on track. I'm sorry for writing so much, but I can't help but wonder if I'm crazy. Any perspective at all would really help.