The subject of abuse has come up repeatedly on the forum lately.
I am taught to draw a sharp line at physical violence. That is unacceptable.
The thing is, about other ways of causing pain, I'm not certain how to differ abuse from non-abuse. For instance, a non-ADHD partner keeping a cautious distance, letting distaste show, not being in love, seems to be devastating to the partner's self-esteem and even health. Voicing needs, with increasing tone of voice over time when needs are never met, causes conflict and deep-felt chronic stress in the ADHD partner. Is that abuse?
The ADHD partner on the other hand, acting out disorganization, inattentiveness and rejection sensitivity dysphoria subjects the partner to severe chronic stress too. Is that abuse?
If one partner dominates the other by aggression I feel that is very disturbing. That I would classify as abuse. One partner would need protection. But in relationships where there is more of equal power but ADHD symptoms cause extreme levels of distress? Are spin-off reactions to that stress abusive?
I know from childhood and from my professional life that we're all capable of rather uncivilized behavior. The nicest person can act ugly in extreme emotional distress. How hurtful something is doesn't necessarily depend on how socially unacceptable it is. So disrespectful speaking? Yelling? Throwing things? Is that the real problem? Is it abuse?
I'm not sure of this and I'd like to hear your thoughts.
There are many kinds of abuse
Submitted by BurnedOutLady on
Interesting because I just now responded about this very thing in another thread here. Someone with ADHD wrote about his non-ADHD wife's abusiveness to him, which is overt: yelling, throwing things, even hitting him once, pounding him with a pillow, locking him out of the house. He posted clips of a written conversation they had where she was expressing her intense frustration with him. I resonated totally with his wife's feelings. I responded to him trying to explain that I felt I understood his wife, that I am like his wife in my relationship with my ADHD husband. I have lost my mind over 12 years. I tried to explain to this person that his wife's abuse is wrong, but that she probably also feels that she is being abused in the relationship and it is driving her a little crazy. I asked him questions about their agreements, how clear they are, and other things.
The poster responded in a way that was literally triggering for me, because it is exactly like how my husband would respond to me in arguments. Total defensiveness, not really listening or interested in my perspective, telling me he knows I don't mean something but that's the way he takes it nonetheless, putting words in my mouth, twisting the whole thing around so that he is the victim. And shutting down the conversation. There is really nothing anyone can do with that. There is no way forward, it is not real communication.
I sincerely believe that an undiagnosed, unaddressed ADHD marriage is abusive all around. I'm not sure there is a point in trying to parse who is more abusive and why. If the situation is out of control, there will be extreme frustration and anger that may at times turn physical because that is the nature of escalating anger. Let's assume no one went into the marriage hoping for abuse. If an otherwise non-abusive person (in other relationships in her life) is screaming like a banshee, pounding you with a pillow and locking you out of the house, you NEED to consider that something is driving her nuts.
When you are driven crazy for years on end with behaviors that make your life SO much harder, locked into a relationship with a person who cannot and will not understand the problems, and regularly manipulated in conversation and arguments into YOU being the problem, not heard, not listened to, and made to be the bad guy - I would say this is a form of abuse that could stand to be defined so it can be diagnosed and treated. I had a narcisstic mother and though she never raised a hand to me, I used to wish she would so the abuse would bo overt and physical and therefore I could get help for it.
I feel I have PTSD from my relationship with my husband, which is why I was triggered by the response of this other man. I don't think I can stand one more second of the psychological torture of not being heard and understood, of having my words misinterpreted and twisted so a man with ADHD can avoid really looking at the full extent of the problem. That has been my life for 12 years.
My husband has fairly severe ADHD. He is brilliant and powerful and capable of doing enormous amounts of work. His brain is definitely different than mine. We also work together. We are together all the time. Totally melded. He is the big ideas guy, the front man, the extrovert everyone is wowed by. I am the person in the background organizing and cleaning everything, caretaking our household, doing a million tasks he doesn't even consider and happily ignores. He has no idea how hard I work, how much I shoulder, how exhausted I am. He has no concept of time, refuses to do important things until the last minute, often can't follow through and I have to pick up the dropped balls. He creates unbelievable stress on me, and is CLUELESS about it. When I finally lose it, he blames me. Tells me I'm just like his mother. Shuts down. Plays the victim. Becomes 100% defensive and starts manipulating the sh!t out of me to make me feel I am the problem. It has really messed with my head over the years. I have had to fight for my own sense of reality and self.
My husband always said he has ADHD but I didn't understand what it means and he never really discussed it, so for all the years it was not recognized as being at the root of his awful behavior (which by the way affects many other people, not just me). He and I are now exploring his ADHD together and so far this is proving very positive. He is actually very able to listen and be open without the defensiveness in this context, because I am not angry. I am not angry because this is now becoming a clinical problem for us to address, a matter of neurology. He is able to listen because he is not experiencing his SEVERE rejection dysphoria which normally causes him to just get up and walk out of the room when I am frustrated or angry.
So yes, this is a kind of abuse. Psychological and emotional abuse. It is not the clear overt kind, the physical kind, and that makes it all the more insidious. You don't have bruises on the outside but you are suffering intensely on the inside.
Oh I should add that my husband can't control his spending, can't save any money, and has spent all our savings and I am so broke right now that I couldn't afford to buy the book on ADHD and marriage recommended by this website.
I wake up every single night with intense anxiety at the lack of control in my life and fear for the future.
The last fight I had with my
got cut off...
Submitted by BurnedOutLady on
The last fight I had with my husband was a week ago when we had both organized an event for our business, but of course he left planning and preparing to literally an hour before the event. I had finished my preparations and I could not include his last minute additions to a presentation. I told him - not with anger - he should have planned earlier. The night before I had been trying to get his attention to make final preparations but he refused to engage and fell asleep on the couch at 8 pm. So there we are, morning of the event, and he is asking me to go find materials for him so he can add to his presentation. He wants ME to run around getting things for him because he just had a new idea. Meanwhile of course I am already overloaded with things to do. So I tell him he should have planned. Immediately he gets angry. He gets angry, starts arguing with me about it, then actually gets up and stomps away from me saying, "Fine, it's your show!"
It's MY show?????? No. It's OUR show, but he couldn't bring himself to focus on the planning in any kind of reasonable time frame. This happens all the time. Basically every event we do.
So now he has once again made me the bad guy. And after 12 years of this, I am so PTSD from this kind of thing, I almost immediately feel myself going insane. My heart rate rises, my blood pressure rises, I feel lightheaded and a little nauseous. Because I know everything that is about to happen. The total inability to communicate. His cluelessness, his anger and defensiveness and manipulations. MY anger rising, escalating things. Screaming, slamming doors. Maybe even three days of this before he finally gets it and apologizes. MAYBE. My life force being sucked out of me.
I cannot live like this anymore.
Dear BurnedOutLady
Submitted by Swedish coast on
Good points. I feel for you. You're right, the life you describe would drive anyone crazy.
I feel a little less crazy today. My husband and I are planning a divorce together in friendly spirit. Nothing has relaxed me in years like the last few days even though my entire life is being turned upside down. That is crazy, though.
I wish you the very best.
I get it
Submitted by BurnedOutLady on
My husband and I have been kind of separated recently. His therapist recommended that we take a break. We still live on the same property but I am living in my little art studio, away from him. We both agreed to take a break, to not try to have sex, to basically act more like friends. As soon as that agreement happened, my migraines stopped. Just getting some distance and working on the relationship constantly was so healing. But ultimately, unless I actually move away, we always end up being pulled back together because we actually love each other. I can't really be in his orbit and stay separate from. him. If I want to end this, I will have to move away. Which I just can't even imagine doing.
I hear you BurnedOutLady
Submitted by sickandtired on
I can sooooo relate to everything you described... the intense over the top anger inflicted on you, not knowing how to avoid it, but driving yourself crazy trying to avoid it, the victim mentality that twists the situation to where you are always the bad guy, the broken promises, that feeling in your gut that you need to get out just to survive... I've been there. I won't tell you the whole story but you can click on any member's name and see all of their posts if you want to know our histories. I just wanted you to know that WE HEAR YOU and support you.
Thank you
Submitted by BurnedOutLady on
Thank you for hearing me. I don't have a lot of people I can talk to about this. I don't want to share with our friend group and community because it would impact him, and me, badly.
I really don't have good options right now. Leaving is really impossible. My life is so deeply intertwined with his. I have no Plan B. No money. My work is tied to his. We have a beautiful home we built together, and I have no other place to go. I'm far too exhausted to even imagine starting over anywhere else.
I have nevertheless been at the point of divorce a lot in recent years. A couple of weeks ago I took off my wedding ring and left it on the kitchen table during a fight with him. Then he got so upset he thought he was having a heart attack. He has heart problems. So of course I totally freaked out then and put it back on, because I don't want to cause his heart attack!
Just this past week I have come to realize that so many of our problems come from his ADHD. So I am trying now in this new path to see if we can possibly address this without anger. The anger is killing us both. He is starting to listen. Today ... and this is unbelievable .... he CLEANED THE HOUSE. We had a big event, it was a mess, and I fully expected he would not help me clean. He told me he was cleaning it, we were on the phone, and he said "Of course it's never clean enough." I said "Yes, it can be clean enough, it's just a matter of whether you want to clean it that much." I said it calmly. Because he always does things like that very half assed if at all. So I came home from working and was SHOCKED that the house looked like a maid came through. It was spotless. Beautiful.
He may never do it again, I don't know, but for that moment I felt actually supported and heard and seen and loved.
BurnedOutLady
Submitted by AdeleS6845 on
The person you were responding to, his wife also has ADHD but presents as the "Non" in their relationship. I missed that the first time I replied to one of his posts.
Not that it makes a difference when we're discussing abuse.
I understand feeling triggered. I left my husband of 20 years due to his abuse and anger issues. The abuse was psychological and emotional and because it was done behind closed doors no one knew what I was going through.
My ex responded to me in the same way as you describe your husband's responses/reactions to you. It was a total mind F, and did a number on me mentally.
thanks
Submitted by BurnedOutLady on
I didn't know his spouse was also ADHD. Not sure what it means to present as the Non. Just that you don't have it as badly?
I avoid using the term "abuse
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
I avoid using the term "abuse" to refer to bad behavior that has been engaged in toward me by a relative, colleague, or acquaintance. Other people might consider the behavior to be abuse, but it's easier for me and my conscience if I describe (to myself or other people) the behavior and explain that I don't like the behavior. Example: My ex started clearly withdrawing from me, the marriage, and our children about 20 years ago. His withdrawal often equated to being physically absent, and it's hard to characterize "absence" as "abuse." So I don't. But it certainly hurt me, the marriage, and our children. So too my ex's lack of communication. The lack of communication often upset me a great deal, and he knew that. I don't refer to it as abuse, but nevertheless it was harmful enough to be a major cause of my decision to get a divorce.
Interesting
Submitted by Swedish coast on
That's a good point Poisonivy. It seems intellectually honest to only refer what has happened.
I'm not saying this does or
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
I'm not saying this does or should apply to anyone else. It has been helpful for me, however, given how passive and avoidant my ex is.
I think ADHD challenges can
Submitted by Eighpryl_AB on
I think ADHD challenges can make the black and white of what constitutes abuse very gray. Sadly there isn't a lot of information that I've been able to find that delves deeply into dealing with abuse in ADHD marriages, whether is comes from the ADHD spouse or the non spouse. What I seem to be seeing on this board is that the non-ADHD spouse can get stuck between trying to help their partner manage because they recognize that ADHD isn't their partner's fault, and sometimes even tolerating abusive behaviors because they know the ADHD partner lacks the self-awareness to realize their behavior actually is abusive. But knowing the abuse may stem from ADHD symptoms doesn't make it less abusive or lessen the destructiveness. So eventually, the non partner just snaps because it is an ongoing battle and they're completely exhausted and broken.
Thank you
Submitted by Quercus McGurkus on
I appreciate your bringing this up Swedish Coast as I’ve had the similar questions.
I’m the ADHD spouse and I’ve engaged in many of the same behaviors on this thread. I had no idea it was due to mental illness and ADHD. My wife finally got so fed up with me she went to a counselor. I did not realize how badly my lack of follow through, broken promises, disorganization, forgetfulness, and anger was hurting her. Up to that point, 2 years ago, I thought of abuse as only physical. My dad came from a home where physical abuse was a daily occurrence until he got big enough to stop his dad from hitting his mom and his siblings. Yelling, cursing, etc did not stop.
I was devastated to think I had abused my wife. I strongly disliked my paternal grandfather and wanted to be as far from him in every possible way. I do t think I can describe how I horribly I felt and the seismic shift in how I viewed myself. I still didn’t know WHY I did all that shit and it took a long time to find out and then try to change. Hence this site, therapy, counseling and just recently couples counseling.
My wife has yelled at me, cursed me, thrown things at me, locked me out of the house, hung up on me, mocked my intelligence and financial situation, questioned my capacity to provide compared to other husbands, and told me she regrets marrying me and never would have if she knew I was bi-polar and ADHD. The above occurred after I got on meds and began actively trying to change. It’s calm now but I’m scared and walking on eggshells hoping I can be perfect and neurotypical so she will like me. I maybe understanding a little of the pain she went through.
I’ve thought that abuse had to be intentional. So person X intends with forethought to cause harm to person Y. Usually physical violence. My therapist is telling me that my dad yelling at my brother and I, being hyper critical, angry, is a form of abuse that has left me with some things to deal with as well as patterns to stop and not repeat.
I never intended to harm my wife or cause her pain. But I did and I’m learning that intentional or not she was wounded and I need to own that and work on not repeating it.
So I think abuse is not just physical and that my limited definition allowed me to excuse behavior that was and is clearly wrong. Maybe there is a graduated scale of abusive behavior? Not defending any wrong behavior at all just thinking out loud and willing to be corrected.
Important
Submitted by Swedish coast on
Eighpryl and Quercus, you both mention that the causing pain in ADHD marriage can often be completely unintentional. Also that the non-ADHD will stretch themselves to bear the pain, knowing it is unintentional.
This makes a lot of sense to me.
Yes
Submitted by Quercus McGurkus on
Hi Swedish,
Yes, it can be unintentional but once someone makes you aware that X behavior is causing harm then an unwillingness to addres or change the behavior may slide to abusive. Perhaps.
Just anecdotal but my wife, when calm, has bend able to explain that when I was at my lowest or highest she was terrified. Not of me hurting her but of me not coming home or committing suicide or X. That fear tended to be expressed in anger and rage because I could not hear her, She and her counselor assumed it was intentional. Now though she is slowly understanding that it is not always intentional and that we both have new patterns to make.
I think oftentimes those of us with ADHD and/or mental illness desire close affirmative relationships but do not know how to either form or keep them. Then we act in ways that inhibit that relationship and the cycle of awfulness starts all over and everyone is exhausted.
I believe that a person who is ADHD or has X mental illness and is doing everything possible to compensate for symptoms, listening, etc and slips up and engages in past behavior is different than one who knows the issue and refuses to get help or denies they have a problem and blames it on the partner. I think the latter is gaslighting(?) and abusive. I think that is intentional harm.
Again, ready to be corrected or have my thinking sharpened.
Thank you for this. My ex has
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
Thank you for this. My ex has a long history of ghosting me (and perhaps other people). Sometimes the worry I feel when he has gone silent leads to anger when I find out (as has always been the case) that, no, he isn't dead, he just hasn't taken the time to respond to a text message or an email or a Facebook message. When he does communicate, he has expressed many times that he is very depressed or that he can barely take care of himself.
To reiterate what I wrote earlier, I don't think my ex's behavior is abusive; I do categorize it as something I don't want to experience all the time and thus, to protect myself, I got a divorce.
Ghosting
Submitted by Quercus McGurkus on
Hi PoisonIvy,
The issue of ghosting is a tough one and I'm sorry you've been hurt by that. I know I've been guilty of it and honestly still am at times and really don't know how to not do it. My wife has often said she could handle about anything if I would just talk to her and then listen to her. I'm still learning how to do that. It's gut wrenchingly hard and I don't know why. Beyond financial issues this communication one is the largest hurdle and causes the most pain.
I agree with you that sometimes behavior, while not abusive, is still hurting you and you have to decide how to handle that.
Ability
Submitted by Swedish coast on
I agree that the intention of any partner must play a big part in the relationship. In our case me trusting my partner's good intentions and loyalty has kept us together for many years.
The ability to change however, sadly doesn't seem to be linked to intention. The reason my husband fails to change his ways is that he cannot. He doesn't have the skills or the frame of mind. Even when we painstakingly solve something and find an ADD friendly way to go about it, that routine is not flexible enough to sustain us when life changes. And life is continuous change.
Disability, not malice, lies behind all the gut-wrenching dysfunction and pain in my marriage. I too am dysfunctional in seeing the ADD perspective and adapting to ADD.
Intention
Submitted by Quercus McGurkus on
I want to be clear that good intentions are not enough. Actions have to follow. No perfection but "good enough".
I really like what you wrote about disability. We just opened that conversation at therapy last week and realized that both of us never considered that and are having to adjust to a new normal just as if I had lost a leg or arm or etc and I have to put in the work to learn to walk again, so to speak.
Your situation with your husband sounds heartbreakingly difficult. I'm so sorry you, and he, are going through it. I hope that light will be at the end of the tunnel soon.
We never ask the real question in these matters.....
Submitted by c ur self on
ADD or not....The real questions is....Am I going to justify (for any reason) a form of daily living that is intrusive and possibly abusive at times to my spouse?? The part of this question that labels me as an unsafe person, and not fit to be in a marital relationship 100% of the time is the word Justify....
When I justify behaviors that prevent any hope of a healthy attachment, then I am only fit for single living, period...
We human's can all have issues and bad moments...But, do I own it? Repent? And seek your forgiveness when and if these moments occur?
Single living is a great life for Narcs., and people who's behaviors aren't checked by ownership, empathy and a conscience...
c
Deleted
Submitted by Swedish coast on
Removed that, it wasn't quite to the point.
I read it and I understand it…
Submitted by c ur self on
Two thoughts, one, I'm not advocating not being loving, kind, long suffering, and understanding of our spouses struggles...My point is, regardless of their attitudes toward their behaviors, the effects are the same, even if there is zero intent to cause the product their lives are producing...So acceptance of these factual circumstances (for me) gives me peace to administer boundaries and self care for my own mental, emotional & physical state...<3
C
Submitted by Swedish coast on
It's amazing, I just can't make out how you do it! I've read many of your posts with great respect. The peace and acceptance you describe is not anywhere in sight in my life, no matter how I've twisted and turned.
I would give anything to find it.
It’s nothing I can boast about, it’s Jesus!
Submitted by c ur self on
I was a broken man, looking for someone to complete my life...No matter how much I gave and how much I invested into our lives, nothing was coming back...I was just another tool in her tool box of things to use to help promote her easy of selfish desires...Not that it was all intentional, and not that she was able to see it...But the effects were devastating non the less...Then through much seeking and His great mercy, my eyes came open! (Revelation) I was looking for something in a human (peace and contentment) that only God through his Son could give me...So he is teaching me what love, life, peace and contentment truly is...He's taking away my expectations from her, and teaching me to place them on him! Our home has changed...I've changed, and she has changed...But it's still a day by day awareness journey...
The divine
Submitted by Swedish coast on
Thank you C, that is truly something to think about.
It's not so common where I live to have an active religious faith. Perhaps people are more lonely and left to their own devices as a result? Or we may tend to take too much responsibility, like for the functioning of other adults.
I have longed for a congregation or other including group of people apart from close family, friends or coworkers. I think religion is important to us. It's just not accessible in my context.
Maybe it takes divinity to change our lives and our perceptions. I wouldn't be surprised.
All the best to you, C. I'm glad you've found your peace.
You speak wisely Swedish Coast....
Submitted by c ur self on
It's not so much about religion for me; it's more about relationship...He will come where we are, when we seek him, and believe...Although I do enjoy congregating and sharing w/ like minded believers...
Bless you!