I believe I understand what my SO is trying to say, but she's not only missing the mark, its making me feel criticized and disapproved of at the very same time. This is one reason I came back here talking about her going on a roll of periods of non-stop criticism. I realized, this method she's been using has great deal to do with it, as this method happens quite often.... even again tonight. In fact, this is the reason we had our first conflict together. Ironically, it's conflict she's trying to avoid. The message is definitely not coming through loud and clear!
What she does ( the method ) is ask a lot of leading questions....actually, it's just one leading question.
"Why did you do it that way?" ( or how come ? )
This is not actually a question but questioning my methods when I do things at times. This always comes after I do ( the thing ) which many times, I have no answer for. I've found simply saying "I don't know?" serves to shut this down plus it's the truth. I don't know why I do everything I do? Especially things I've been doing all my life almost involuntarily. And for the record....I haven't broken anything since I've been here. She has, but it's her stuff. She's mostly concerned with spills, crumbs and food stuff getting on the floors and counter tops. She keeps them immaculate which is a tough act for me to follow always.
I believe I understand this now, it's a fear response in that, she's afraid something will happen that she doesn't want to have happen and she feels she can't control it.... because she can't physically control another person to prevent this ( thing ) from happening. In other words, she's feeling out of control. I'm saying this because I feel this way too at times for the same reason. This is akin to back seat driving which is also something she does chronically.
The net affect is making me feel disapproved of, incompetent and criticized....because this is actually what she's doing: It's a thinly veiled form of criticism in the form of a question. It also makes me feel like I'm being watched all the time because she's actually doing that too. Watching me and checking to make sure I'm doing ( whatever ) the way she would do it. And when I don't do it that way...out comes that question. I understand also, the way she does it actually works so she has a good reason ( at least in her mind ) to do what she does. She has pulled me aside many times showing me how she likes things done down to the specific movements and specific ways she does it. It's really is a form of micromanagement.
Anyway. I haven't been reacting to this because it happens a lot and I calmly say"I don't know". This seems to works for now. But I can tell she's still frustrated because she's not getting the response from me she's looking for. I believe this is an indirect form of passive aggressive communication. I also believe shes doing this because she's afraid of conflict with me, if she were more direct.
If she were more direct, she'd probably get a different response from me as well as telling me exactly what's on here mind. At the same time, I wouldn't feel like she was always disapproving me and being criticized every time she does it.
Actually, since I believe I understand what's happening...it's really not having much affect on me any more. For now, I know the "I don't know" response is working but I wish I knew a netter way to confront her on this.
Any ideas or suggestions would be very much appreciated.
Also, thanks to the person who commented that having someone move into your space in middle age can be stressful because people get set in their ways. It caused me to remember this was a concern of hers prior to me moving in. She even said it close to something like...."I'm very set in my ways and I was getting use to living alone" This was very helpful information to keep in the back of my mind.
J
a minor point but
Submitted by honestly on
Aside from everything else, do you think it's possible you might have RSD? They way you describe your thought process is kind of what I understand my OH's to be, and he definitely has RSD. I may have got the wrong end of the stick but it sounds to me that your partner is trying to communicate with you as gently as possible about something that matters to her. But the manner of her communication is offending you, and the thing that matters to her has not landed with you as important. This is what my husband said to me in counselling once; 'I didn't realise it was important.' Whatever I asked for, however carefully I voiced it, he didn't think what I was saying mattered. As I said, I may have the wrong end of the stick here, but it could have been in my case a request for his attention, companionship, doing stuff together, or it could have been something as simple as not putting my beloved vintage glassware through the dishwasher. But he didn't think it was important and it offended him when I asked. And this - taking offense at gently voiced requests, and not thinking what your partner is saying is important - kills love.
And destroys your vintage glassware.
ps
Submitted by honestly on
He has also frequently accused me of being passive-aggressive.
Obviously intention and reception are different things, and if that is how he's receiving my behaviour then that's valid, but at the same time I don't think there is literally any way to communicate with him other than lavishing him with unmitigated praise that would not be received as an act of aggression by him.
Bottom Line
Submitted by J on
I'm actually pretty clear on what's happening and why but not exactly sure how to confront her on it without things going into a defensive posture. The few times I've tried, I've received a hard push back. These are the few tense moments where anger has flared. Neither one of us has had a melt down where things have gotten out of control but...all real communication has failed and no resolution has come from me voicing....I'm doing the best I can.
Here's the run down:
-She's very particular about her things and the way in which she wants things done. There's the right and wrong way...and then there's her way. I'm very clear on this and her way is the answer. And I really don't have a problem with this, it's more, just learning how to do things her way and remembering to do them that way instead of defaulting back to the way I've always done them in the past. This is two people who have their own particular ways of doing something that are different and me, trying to adjust. It's a process that takes time.
-she's admitted to having control issues. This is right there out in the open, in plain site for anyone to see. This makes her angry when people in general get on her nerves who do things differently than she would do.
-As far as my RSD goes. It seems like, mine isn't as bad as others. Possibly more on the mild side. It's the sheer volume of complaints lodged that starts to get to me, but even now, as I mentioned, it's really not affecting me as much as it did right at first when I first moved in. I guess, I really wasn't prepared for that and it took me aback.
-I'm fully aware that these things are important to her. How could you not be, she's made these things perfectly clear that they are. There's no way you can miss this by the level of intensity of her reactions when I forget or don't comply. She also went through a kind of orientation when I first arrived where she told me by going through the house each and every house rule and the way she does or wants things and why. It's a pretty long list to remember and most are very specific in how she wants things. This is the perfectionist part of her coming out. These things are really not up for debate. There's no compromise to be made here. I don't have a problem with that either....it just boils down to my ability to remember all of these things, and form a habit so it becomes second nature which I've done pretty well so far. Some of these things I'm doing successfully every time. Maybe a little negative bias going on ...on her part?
-Many of her particulars in what she wants is having to do with her fear of something bad happening in order to prevent them. And much of it makes good common sense. I don't take issue with these things....back to my ability to do them 100% of the time.
-And yes, Impatience on her end is a factor. I get the feeling, she felt that once she's told me something once...she expects that I can just do it without ever being told or reminded again. This is unrealistic for anyone...ADHD or not. Back to...many of these things are brand new to me that I've never done before. As I said. She's very particular in the "how" she wants things done. Which means, it's not only remembering to just do it....it's remembering to do it in a particular way. This is difficult for me to 100% of the time.
-And each time you forget or don't comply....you have someone there telling you each and every time. This is where the RSD comes in. It's not really helpful to have someone there pointing out each time you fail. The micromanagement aspect of this and her controlling nature in general are working against her I feel.
-I'm not resisting or not doing my best to comply. I'm in full agreement and I have no issues with the way she'd like them done. I'm trying...it's the best I can do. And I've had great success already. There's been consistent progress that she also sees too.
I really just think that there's been a lot of adjusting to her way vs the way I've always done things. There's no right or wrong here...it's just my ability to make the change over and I don't always remember.
And...to the level this affects her when I'm not able to do it as fast as she'd like.
As I've said, I've broken or ruined nothing since I've been here. I take great care of her stuff and the beautiful home she's created. This appears more about the fear of something happening more than...the thing she fears has happened or keeps happening already.
PS Honestly
Submitted by J on
Before I completely forget. Thank you for responding to me. I really appreciate the feedback and will take everything you said under advisement. I do understand what your saying too....and it's all good things to keep in mind.
Thank you
Hi Honestly
Submitted by J on
I think you're spot about the RSD and I've considered that into the equation. But remember, she has ADHD too, so that's where things get a little sticky. I'm just considering that she may have RSD too and with two people trying to avoid conflict at the same time....I cam pretty quickly see where communication can become difficult. In essence, both feeling and doing the same things for the same reason at the same time.....if that makes sense? I think this could be part of the equation too?
I think at the beginning when we had our first confrontation over thus ( no one was out of control ) but I had reached my limit of her criticizing me. Putting this into context...there were a lot of over direct criticizing too. Like, getting up first thing in the morning and stepping out of bed and the first thing out of her mouth was a list of complaints instead of good morning. Which could go on for quite a while. My response to her in one of these moments was : "would you like me to tell you everything I don't like about you all at one time? I wouldn't think you'd like that very much? " This was said calmly but to the point....I was letting her know what she was doing. She stopped when I said that.
Your point about these things being important is valid and yes, I'm fully aware that they are. This has more to do with me....actually being in the process of making things a habit and not always being able to do what she asks 100'% of the time.
In real time...there's excuses and reasons
Submitted by J on
This literally just happened so I'm taking the time to illustrate how this goes.
I'm out in the garage organizing and cleaning up my shop space. I've allocated my entire weekend to do this and its coming along great.
She comes out from work ( she works from home today ) to see how it's going. She asks me if I'd open a box of cat litter that arrived and break down the box to get it out in the trash for tomorrow's pick up. No problem, I'm in the middle of doing just that as we speak. I reach down and pick up the box to carry it over to my bench and the oh so familiar question comes out...."why are you doing that? " ...meaning, why are you picking the box up off the floor instead leaving it there and breaking it down on the floor instead.
Here's where I have to pick and choose my battles so to speak. This time, I answered..."it's easier and more comfortable for me to work off my bench because of my back. ( she knows about my back when I bend over too much...a degenerative disk ) .
This is what happens almost daily. It's such a silly thing. Why does it matter why I do something like picking up a box off the floor to a table top...instead of doing it on the floor like she would do? She's 5'2" and closer to the ground. I'm 6'0"...and have a lot further to bend over to reach the ground.
She also said...." well, you have to pick it anyway, you still have to bend over and pick it up?"
Yes, but I have a back issue and I'll be picking things up all day. I'm trying to specifically not work while bending over too much and work in a comfortable position to break down the box.
So, is it really necessary to make an accounting for every thing I do like this? And that's exactly what it feels like....I'm having to make a verbal accounting for my actions like a child does to their parent.
And over what? The way I choose to break down a cardboard box? It really gets that silly at times.
I pick my battles here too...because when I've tried to answer this "why did you do that" question...I've also got...." I don't want to hear excuses" This again feels like a mother to a child. This is exactly what parents say to their kids when they start to complain or argue with them. "Just do as I say"...would be the second part of that sentence.
I'll give you one more that's pretty easy to understand in relation to having good reasons to do things. But this time...my SO does have a good reason for this. This is over something as silly as the toilet seat.
It took me a while, after living alone or with guys...to remember to put the toilet seat down for my first wife. Any guy who cannot understand why this is important is just completely unaware. And I did learn to do it eventually without fail aside from only a few times ever. Mostly, when you're half asleep and brain dead. And you can't remember anything.
But now, my SO has added another layer on top of this and for good reason. The cats like to splash around and play in the toilet water getting it all over themselves and the floor. And me, only having dogs who I never had to worry about because they never drank from the toilet because I had several bowls of water out for them in case I forgot. I can't remember ever putting the lid cover down because there wasn't any real reason to do it.
These are all just habits that you do unconsciously. And my default habit is to put the toilet seat down but not the lid.
But if I do forget one, but not the other, for the same reason as before when I'm half asleep and brain dead in the middle of the night....
Out comes the ...."why did you do that?" In essence..."make an accounting of yourself". At least, that's how it comes across.
Is this really a question? Is it not obvious that I forgot. That part is obvious...but the underlying reason may not be.
But if you've been asked a number of times and you actually explain or answer the question as I've just done...and given a reasonable reason and you get...."I don't want to hear excuses"....
I've even said..."There are excuses...and there are reasons"
Or sometimes as I've found just saying ..." I don't know" is just easier than repeating yourself over and over. Especially when you've given good reason before....even more than once.
And I understand it's important when it comes to the toilet seat and why she wants this.
I don't understand why it matters how I break down a cardboard box either on top of a bench...or on the floor? I do understand...that's not how she would do it. That part is very clear.
The common thread is the question....
"Why did you do that?" part remains the same and it happens all the time.
And it definitely feels like, the second part of that question is: "I need you to make an accounting of yourself".
At least, that's how it feels.
This is not me venting by the way. I'm just trying to illustrate what happens in real time.
devil in the detail
Submitted by honestly on
Hi J.
I was really struck by a few words and phrases here. Like 'micromanagement', ' controlling', 'not resisting' and 'comply.' These are all about power. From what you describe, the power dynamic between you is very out of kilter. And as for 'I don't want to hear excuses'; I would certainly not speak to my partner like this, ADHD or no ADHD, no matter how upset or frustrated I am with him. Neither would I speak to my children like this.
I would not be able to live under the level of scrutiny you describe. (Nor I am not able to rely on my partner for the domestic work you describe; the idea of asking him to break down a box for me while he's tidying up his workshop is kinda magical!). But it does occur to me that maybe, perhaps, your partner is talking about something else when she has a go about how you're doing something? Did you let her know in advance that you'd spend all weekend tidying the workshop? Did it leave her lonely or lumbered with other domestic tasks? I just ask because I know from this forum that some people's ADHD partners will disappear into 'projects' leaving them isolated and burdened with everything else that needs to be done. (Mine doesn't- he disappears into social media or work.) Whether or not this is the case, you certainly seem to be in a very difficult situation and all I can really suggest is couples counselling so you can get your communication ironed out. I would very much suggest this before you marry, especially since (as you mentioned elsewhere) intimacy - which is itself a form of communication- is already an issue.
I wouldn't want to live like that; I hope you can make improvements.
I'll hit on the highlights Honestly
Submitted by J on
I'll just quickly put some context to the points you made.
The "I don't want to hear excuses" comment came when I was first attempting to introduce her to some things I've recently learned here. Specifically, the burnout cycle which I believe she suffers from too and is partly responsible for her "grouchy" moods as she refers to them. Which is also part of the anger issues that I was having with her. I was actually referring to myself as a way to ease into the topic instead of just hitting her with it by pointing my finger at her. I'm no expert on how to tell another person this may be something their experiencing ( and subsequently causing them to be hard to live with ) but, if I'm not wrong, that may have been a denial response from suggesting she may also be having this too? It was, my first attempt at easing into the topic saying I have it which she repplied: I don't want to hear excuses. She might have been actually saying more like...I don't want hear here about something I have that doesn't make me out to sound very good. In other words, I may have hit a nerve. Sounds like denial to me...I don't know?
As far as chores and division of labor including what I was doing yesterday in my shop area....
The garage is where my shop "area" is a shared space. I'd been working on some personal projects and helping her with her art ( she was needing some tools for her own stuff she's doing ) So it was about time to straighten things up since she can't park her car in the garage when I'm working. We're actually pretty good about discussing these things ahead of time and dividing up work, so this was all planned in advance. She was going to some things...and I was going to do my shop area inside the garage. Part of my organization was making new space for tools and materials which has been sitting waiting for quite a while ( a couple months ). It really was my responsibility to complete what I started and finish this project. It's also my agreed upon duty that I take care of trash including breaking down boxed.
So I was really just doing my share of my weekly division of labor and finishing a project when she asked my to take care of that particular box. None of that I take issue with because it's my agreed upon responsibility. Something I'm actually kind of proud that I'm doing it consistently doing and following through so well. And...I also made her a promise that she'd be able to park her car in the garage by the end of the weekend which I did. That also feels good because I kept my promise. No problem there.
The micromanagement part is a separate issue however....needing to do things in a specific way that meets her approval is definitely problematic....especially when it comes to checking on me to see if I'm doing things right. ( right in her mind ) That feels a little like a boss or foreman checking on a subordinate which is what I think your referring too in the power dynamic.
I'll come back to finish...gotta get ready for work.
Hi Honestly
Submitted by J on
I'm back ...
I've also had some time to think about what you said. To sum up what I was saying earlier. There doesn't feel like there's a power struggle in some regards as I was saying...we decide a lot of things together as to who does what and rarely have any disagreements especially in the chores and household duties. No problem there.
As far as the control issue of hers ( she fully admits it ) this has more to do with her sex abuse and life at home growing up which is also where the sex abuse happened. Not by a direct family member but from a step brother who was clearly an opportunist and predatory. ( she was 13 ). This also has to do with our lack of sex I believe and she has intimated to me that she thinks it has something to do with it. She stopped counseling right when the therapist began to cover that topic. She didn't quit...had more to do with money and her situation at the time. Moving I do believe.
Out of respect for her, I won't get into the details but the one thing she said was...." I didn't say no " and she's living with that regret to this day.
I believe, the inability to say no when you need to or saying yes when you shouldn't has a lot to do with personal power.
Bottom line. The ability to choose is extremely powerful. Choice...is personal power.
I realized something when I thought about this. When I wanted to be a swimmer at age 6..and was given the choice. It was my decision to be there and stay doing it. It my my decision to either quit or keep at it. That choice was personal power as well as making a good choice to get away from my family in a healthy adaptive strategy.
So, this has less to do with my SO...and more to do with me. No one can boss me around unless I let them. They're free to try, but I'm not required to anything I don't want to do... and that also applies to my SO with sex.
When I was single for the time before I met my SO....I chose to be celebate. This was not some noble thing done for some lofty reason. It was so I didn't feel deprived. It was so I wouldn't feel the need to succumb to my urges and go out and find a women for that reason. I did it for myself. That's personal power. I changed the relationship I had with myself and sex by making that one decision. It was truly liberating. It no longer became a need but a want as well. That's personal power.
Having that experience, showed me I also have power to choose anytime I want. It's what that quote was all about: No man is free who does not have mastery of himself. I take that to heart.
So here's what I say about this and my SO. She told me before I moved in with her, that she needed a man who could stand up to her. I wasn't exactly sure what she meant, but now I think I do.
If one person is unable to do something or feels powerless in that respect...then someone else needs to step up to the plate and be the leader or the one in charge.
I believe my SO in one respect, tries to go down the right road but goes too far. It very much feels like ( a sense ) that's she's afraid if she doesn't do it, it'll never get done.
This is another version of: stubbornness is persistent gone bad. Persistence is good...stubbornness is not so good or it can be something that works against you preventing you from getting what you want.
I also believe, before I moved in, that her libido was not what it use to be. Straight up. We talked about our past sex lives and it appeared in the past, she was plenty active. I was hearing that part, and not hearing the other part as well. Without her coming right out and saying it....she really has no interest in sex. I can take this two ways.
1) she was attempting to manipulate me to get me to be with her.
Or
2) She started out with low interest in sex, and her offering it to me initially was doing something she really didn't feel like in one reclect, but doing it because her feelings for me and her desire to be with me, enabled herself to give me as much as she could.
I've had a lifelong tendency to only see the good in people while neglecting to see the bad. So, I have to choose here too.
And at no time, do I feel there's been consequences to saying no...or wanting to do what I want to do. Except, by asking for sex. She doesn't like it when I do....and wants full control of that part.
Other than that, she is in ful support of me going out and making friends or going to do things that interests me but not her. And sometimes she'll go along just to try something new.
And I fully support her to go do things with her family even when I can't or she just wants time alone with them. Which she does.
So do I feel abused so like I have to do everything she says even if she gets bossy? No. But I think there needs to be a discussion about these things up front especially about sex. If needed...then therapy together is the move if she refuses to talk about these things.
One more thing. Isn't given the choice at the core of everything you read in this forum? I think it is.
That's what I think.
PS Honestly
Submitted by J on
I didn't choose to have ADHD...but I have a choice what to do about.
And yes, SO has already launched into her art projects and has abandoned me sort of.
But, I'm welcome to join her if I like. She doesn't mind that at all. I get a little bored not able to directly participate so I can go off and do other things.
When I was doing the same thing she's doing, practically living inside my shop doing woodworking projects. I would have died and gone to heaven if my x wives were to have joined me. Both of us working on the same project together at the same time doesn't work. We're both too controlling for that.
But I can make her frames and things she needs for her art...and I really don't care what I make...I just like making things so that's okay too.
I've made one definitive decision
Submitted by J on
Staying true to my convictions and continuing being the person I want to be is what I'll be continuing to strive for no matter what happens. To live at peace as much as possible. This much I know for certain.