Submitted by Libby on 04/28/2018.
Further to PoisonIvys thread about an ADD spouse who's only interest is sex. This is my marriage. He has no other interest in me. No friendship. No companionship. I have quit giving him what he wants. I am tired. But I do often wonder if I am damaging the relationship too by not doing my part with the sex thing. I just don' know...any thoughts?
My ex definitely thought I
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
My ex definitely thought I was damaging the relationship by not wanting to have sex. And I understand that. It was important to him, as it would have been to me if I had been the recipient of anything in return. But I was not. In simplest terms, things operated as follows: "Have sex with me because I want to feel good. But I will not have an emotional relationship with you to help you feel good because it is impossible for me to be emotionally intimate with people." The one-wayness of the relationship was first implicit and then made very explicit.
What do I do with the guilt?
Submitted by Libby on
What do I do with the guilt?
Why do you feel guilty? Women
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
Why do you feel guilty? Women have strong emotional needs. Men have strong sexual needs. It’s difficult for us to want to be sexual with a man when there is no emotional connection. If I had to guess, I’d say that he’s gotten his sexual needs met a lot more often than your emotional needs have been met. In my view, he should feel guilty. Not you!
37 years of being told it is
Submitted by Libby on
37 years of being told it is my fault. I am so far down in the depths it isn't funny. Living in chaos and craziness is hard.
It’s not your fault! I don’t
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
It’s not your fault! I don’t understand this part of adhd, but they truly cannot understand their own actions. They truly don’t see how their actions affect other people. They truly believe that all of the problems are the wife’s fault or the boss’s fault. The way their brains are wired, they are so focused inward and they believe that the world revolves around them.
My heart hurts for you because I know how much you’re hurting. For 20 years my husband refused to spend time with me. He told me over and over that He didn’t want to be around me because I wasn’t nice to him. When he finally read a book about adhd, he couldn’t deny taking responsibility for a lot of the problems in our marriage. Even though he acknowledges his adhd, it still is so very hard. He often forgets when we have plans. Or if something or someone more interesting comes along he will ditch me right in the middle of a date. Last summer we took a trip for the sole purpose of reconnecting and spending time together. Instead, he chose to use that time to take up a new hobby and ignored me a big part of the time. It’s a constant battle. The only time that we can really connect is when we’re in the car alone. That’s the only time that there’s no chance of getting dumped for something more interesting.
I’m sorry you’re hurting.
Connecting in the car doesn'
Submitted by Libby on
Connecting in the car doesn' happen here. He is on the phone as soon as he gets in. That is what he does while he is driving whether I am with him or not. Our phone bill is usually about 50 pages long. He talks on it nonstop. I don't go with him very much because of that. Again he blames me claiming he has to do that because I won't talk or don't know how to talk. So sorry if I am being negative. I guess I am just venting. It has taken me years of reading these forums to get up the courage to join. Thank you for your kind comments.
I"ve read all the comments on PI's and Libby's threads....
Submitted by c ur self on
You are all right in my view; Hopeful Heart is very correct in her assessments....Anything that is in anyway mundane, (not over the top exhilarating) they balk, they can't remain in that mindset long at all...They feed themselves off of change, excitement, new things, new people, new places etc.......When they are in conversation with family, friends, or even us (if we will listen w/ an approving ear, like they can get from others) they seem to most always try to push the envelope to force a jovial, childish, foolish type atmosphere....It has to be entertaining and high energy, and they have to be a full participate (the main character) for it to hold their interest and stay....
For this type mind to look you dead in the eyes w/ calmness, and embrace you emotionally over an extended period is almost non-existent for the most part...I am basing this on my personal experience, and all that I have learned about this type of mind....
They have two speeds....It's the good time, high energy, self entertaining speed....Or, it's the dead mind speed...(leave me alone, hyper focus, hours into games, hours into TV programs, or other addictions)...Med's produce a crashing mind also...It's speed, it's full bore then die, full bore then die....It seems to very limited ability in this type of mind, to produce the calm loving emotional attachment that you ladies, (all of us) so desperately seek....
What to do about it??
Well, if we don't accept it for what it is, then we start fighting it...Like I've done in the past, and like Libby is stating here, and like so many who post here are doing...So we start punishing them because of our disapproval of them, and how their minds are working or not working when it comes to a healthy attachment....This is how it starts....US....(Hey!, I'm here!...Hey!, I'm alive, Hey, I've got needs that you promised to care about.......Hey! can you SEE me???
So once the pointing it out over and over again fails to accomplish anything (long term any way) other than start arguments, and end what little communication ability we had...We start looking for other ways....Once our minds get to this level of frustration w/ them, then sex will usually wane off or stop...Having Sex with a person whom you can't attach with on an emotional and intimate level, can at best just feels like a single acts of F------ one another for pleasure...Start, get to the end, then nothing...It doesn't seem to be building a healthy relationship, nor the strong intimate bond that our minds crave...
Accepting this reality of her add mind has been a good thing for me, her normal is not my normal, but, I have to live w/ her in an understanding way....Treat her the way I want to be treated, love her, like I love myself...So all I can do is ask her to practice healthy thinking, and healthy habits, when it comes to my needs...
It's not her job to manage my emotions....If I'm angry or frustrated about her lack of attention on a personal level, then I owe it US to own that, and not take it out on her...Her add is not sin against me, nor intentional on her part....We have to separate add, and intentional acts of Sin and Abuse...
As for as Sex is concerned (to have it, or not) each person will have to decide that for themselves....I Vowed to my God, and to my Wife, and the many witnesses in attendance, that I would submit the power of my body to her as she has need....So to not do that, isn't even an option as long as we live together....No matter if she refuses to do the same....It's not my sin!.....What would cause me to not make love to her again, is the same things that would dissolve our marriage....
c
As a woman I am challenged
Submitted by jennalemone on
As a woman I am challenged when it comes to marriage, sex and the Bible, feeling like I must submit to something I am uncomfortable with, like I must submit to something that brings me down, someone who uses me and ignores me rather than care for me. I feel better inside of me when I am not submitting any part of me to him anymore. This is the frustration. I would love to have an intimate relationship with my husband but my husband does not act or talk like a husband who wants to share a life but rather he fights for his freedom in many small acts of power over me. And I have given this more than enough time to "grow" into an intimate relationship by my nurturing for so long. How does a woman submit to someone who acts like a defiant teenager? Years ago, a minister responded to me when I told him of my predicament with my H, he said that God made the commandments at a time when the Isrealites needed some strict guidelines. God loves us and doesn't want us to be miserable. We must use our minds and hearts that have been given to us to live the best we can. I have spent decades searching the Bible for answers on this one. The best words came from this minister who gave me permission to be true to myself and not to lose myself, giving myself away to someone who was destroying the love in my heart and life.
C, I am grateful that you are on this forum. Your words often bring me "home" to where my heart is, where I was at one time with myself and with God. Although I am challenged with this, I like reading what you write. It is calming and true to a core of my heart.
Jennalemone those are very
Submitted by Libby on
Jennalemone those are very wise words. I too am a Christian and have struggles with what the Bible says about sex. I remind myself that it also tells husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the Church. At this point I have actually quit going to church. I can no longer stomach sitting next to my DH there knowing how he has treated me during the week and sometimes even on the way to church. My pretending is not honoring to God, myself, the Church or the institution of marriage.
On the way to church
Submitted by jennalemone on
"...how he has treated me during the week and sometimes even on the way to church..." Libby
This reminds me of when my children were younger and we went to church together as a family. H would be angry every time we went to church or anywhere we went together as a family. In the car sometimes he would step on the gas in little spurts and swerve us in the car a little too sharply in a (subtle?) show of power, not talking to us or his only subject of conversation - complaining about the other people's stupidity. Writing this many years after the fact, is helpful for me to put things in perspective....what he did was a terrible way to act in front of his sons and an abusive way to drive the car. When we got to church, or family event, he turned into Mr. Gregarious Salesman and I was fuming inside, having said nothing in the car - smoothing things over and gritting my teeth. My children do not equate going to church as a positive activity.
Looking back, I should have made a scene in the car and had the verbal fights in front of the kids rather than "try to make things OK for him". The truth is, I wanted a family to go to church and other events together. He must not have wanted to go at all and was angry or overwhelmed. I have gone to church alone now for nearly 2 decades.
But today is an age when a woman can call out a man on his actions and words and be believed. 2 decades ago, if I would have told this story, someone may have easily responded with "What did you do to set him off?" or "It can't be that bad". Today, a man is more taken to task and hopefully not let off the hook because "boys will be boys" or because it is thought that home life and family success is up to the woman. A wife needs to address bullying tactics and make sure she and her children are safe and respected.
It took me so long to understand this, to accept this, and to grow up rather than to try to be a good girl, obedient and feminine, uncomplaining (not nagging). It is a different time than it was 25 years ago and I hope young women are able to fight the fights they need to fight and find support for each other.
Yes, it's very difficult Jenna....
Submitted by c ur self on
( I must submit to something that brings me down, someone who uses me and ignores me rather than care for me. )
I was speaking of myself, and my convictions...If I was feeling emotionally and physically used as you say you do, (And, I have at times this in this marriage) I'm sure I would not be desiring intimacy w/ someone who didn't show love and care in other ways...
As for as biblical roles in marriage goes, it really takes acceptance of those roles to enjoy a marriage built on those truths...And that only happen's when we have a right relationship w/ the Father...(our will is submitted to his Spirit...)...If a H or W is not expressing love and kindness to their spouse in all areas of life, it's a safe bet there is some spiritual problems (darkness) in that heart.. (In my opinion)....Human will power is a very good asset, but, even it will fail us....
c
When I read God’s
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
When I read God’s instructions to The Body Of Christ regarding marriage (Ephesians 5:22-33), I feel like it can all be boiled down to one word. Selflessness. Husbands are supposed to give of themselves and put their wives’ needs first. Wives are supposed to give of themselves and put their husband’s needs first. If both members of the marriage are fulfilling these instructions, both husband and wife are getting everything they need, joyously giving to each other. When one person of the marriage acts selfishly, the other person is sacrificing their own needs.
Please don’t beat yourself up. One person can’t live a Godly and biblical marriage alone. It takes both partners.
I think it’s safe to say that everyone on this thread entered into marriage with a selfless and biblical attitude. Unfortunately, our selflessness ended up being a sacrifice.
Amen....Hopeful Heart....
Submitted by c ur self on
Well spoken.....
Hopeful, well put
Submitted by dedelight4 on
You said this well. I know for sure, how I entered into marriage. I can not say the same for H. I don't think he's ever understood the role of husband/father, and didn't ever seen to WANT to know differently. I find that somewhat puzzling, and disheartening. The selfish part mentioned earlier comes into play here, I think. They don't seem to live "unselfishly", putting their spouse before themselves. Since they are capable of understanding what this means, the question comes to mind of "Why"?....don't they seek better? Somewhere there has to be a choice made within themselves, (himself) to not look at the whole picture, and choose a "quick, easy, even temporary " fix", instead of tackle any deeper issues within themselves and/or the marriage, that might actually take too much "time" and effort. IMO. I could be wrong, just wondering myself.
I agree with many things you
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
I agree with many things you say here, C. But one thing I don't agree with is the implication that I expected my ex to manage my emotions. I didn't. I just wanted some emotional support. He didn't want to provide that. However, he looks to me for that, even now that we are divorced, on the rare occasions that we see each other. Some of the things he tells me have made me very uncomfortable, as when he joked to me that I could help him in his current situation by killing his parents. I stopped expecting any support from him a long time ago. I let him do the talking.
I"m sorry PI if you felt I projected this on you....
Submitted by c ur self on
That was me talking about me....My biggest mistake in communications w/ my W, is allowing my own frustrations to surface when trying to get her to SEE herself....Which, just gives her the thing she is hoping for the most....Something to blame and distract from the original subject...Her dysfunctional behaviors...
c
"we" are not all the same any
Submitted by Jon on
"we" are not all the same any more than you lot are all the same. Under the ADHD label there is an individual person with different experiences, perspectives and values. To read expressions of people in the third person such as "they" is reasonably offensive, in much the same way that it's probably offensive when I refer to normies as "you lot". Just to clarify, I am not offended by the way. But I think it better not to talk about us as if we are freak objects rather than people with feelings, because on a less stable day, I could well be offended by being so thoroughly stereotyped :)
Jon
When I replied to Libby, I
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
When I replied to Libby, I was referring to her husband and my husband. I apologize if it seemed like you were included. I get your point when you use ’normies’ and ‘you lot’. I understand your point of view. I understand why you’re hurting.
"WE" & "They"
Submitted by c ur self on
For the most part these posts aren't about (we non's) and (they add's). The we's as you called them, that I read about here, for the most part are those working, caring and giving effort in life and in their relationships....The they's I see posted about by the we's (and have and do post about myself) are those who show by their daily actions that they are so self absorbed, and self loathing that it's impossible for them to see reality...So when a "we" attempts to communication (because they love them) about this reality for the most part they get denial, defensiveness or rejection...This dynamic doesn't have anything to adhd....It has everything to do with a self absorbed victim mind; (no ownership) vs a thankful one who desires a relationship of unity and peace, and who will role up their sleeves to make it happen....
People who are hurting, like to blame something (instead of the person who is producing the behaviors) it gives them hope for the person they love, and for the future.....So the add/adhd label takes a beating because of ignorance and sinful, unconcerned and indifferent people (Users)....When actually, adhd when recognized and managed well, has the potential to produce great strengths in people...Some of the best workers, artists, musicians, all walks of life...One professor told me being a professor (freed him up to talk, and engage people at will) helped him to be able to constructively use his natural tendencies....This same professor (5 kids) told me a lady who had one of his boys (might have been a teacher, I forgot) came up to him, and said...his name..."You know he has adhd, don't you?", Do you medicate him for it?...He just smiled and told the lady, I had rather he learn to manage it, and look for the strengths it can produce in him....I like that....
It wasn't taboo in that home, and they didn't tolerate disobedience as an excuse....
c
A slightly different view..
Submitted by Jon on
In return, let me tell you a long, desperately lonely and isolating tale of rejection, emptiness and waste.
So, my story is the opposite of your story. I am the ADD spouse whose partner only thinks I am interested in sex. In fact, I have been with my current partner now for 13 years and was with my previous one for 10 prior to that. So we talk a different language. In fact, it appears I speak a different language to pretty much everyone. I ‘fell out’ of my previous relationship, which was typically challenged by the normal familiar situation that we ADHD people are vessels of Satan put on this earth to make you lot suffer, and from there just sort of fell into a new one so basically having never spent any part of my adult life as single. In both my relationships, for reasons I guess I understand in abstract, but feel unable to untangle into any sort of normal, sex and intimacy have been a *major* problem. Basically I have spent my entire adult life feeling, unattractive, unwanted, ugly, and increasingly embarrassed and ashamed of myself and the feeling of being endlessly castigated, ashamed and humiliated. As a result I have spent a good portion of that suicidal and self-destructive, mostly because I have come to believe that as a person I am broken, unlovable unappealing as mate, partner, parent, friend etc. for all the multitude of complaints seen on these forums. For me, issues of sex, intimacy and self-image are very closely linked. Possibly because fact is that sex is probably the most intimate act of sharing yourself you can engage in. Regardless…
My failure to be able to live up to domestic expectations, the fact that I don’t cook often enough, tend to forget things, procrastinate, am messy and distracted, it seems to me have resulted in partners concluding that I am just not desirable in any way. Clearly NOT good partner material. I know it sounds shallow, but If I was butt ugly, then I might be ok with that, but not to blow my own trumpet, I am unfortunately for my battered sense of self, not so ugly. Well not on the surface of it, but beneath the skin it appears that I am a hideous monster, a kind of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.
I cannot tell you how many times I have laid in the dark staring at the ceiling till the small hours and longed for genuine human touch, touch that isn’t loaded with expectations, judgments and a sense of duty and obligation. I cannot tell you how many times I have cried myself to sleep aching to be accepted and loved for the person I am. Not the person I should have been had I not been born munted in the head. I cannot tell you how many times. Too many. Far too many. See the thing is, that my partners think it’s all about sex, and so once in a while when there is a spare 10 mins between kids doing some activity and the billion other things going on, it’s ‘time to take care of that chore’. Like I’m some sort of festering sore that needs to be scratched. So what is a need for human contact, acceptance, honesty of expression, common humanity, love, affection and a sense of belonging, instead becomes a demeaning and humiliating exercise in rubbing my nose in every single failure I have ever had. A billboard of torment where all my flaws are writ large and me made to relive them and made WELL aware that this is all I deserve, that I should be grateful for anything at all. Something that should be an act of love and beauty instead reduced an act of indifference and obligation void of the real human contact and any acceptance I so desperately crave, that I have always so desperately craved.
When you have ADHD, you learn that all love you experience is conditional. It’s conditional on the expectation that you will transform from worthless dirt to something I don’t even know. From careless and self-absorbed to dedicated, committed, engaged and all those other blunt instruments of failure we are beaten with that I am sick to the back teeth of hearing.
My life for the last 25 years has basically consisted of an endless, inescapable loop of doom in my own head of self-loathing, of disgust, of rage, of frustration so acute that sometimes I chew the inside of my mouth till it bleeds, of anxiety so intense that I throw up, of sadness and desolation so overwhelming that thoughts of death NEVER let up. I have spent 25 years feeling unlovable, undesirable, and unattractive and rejected, so in my typical misguided ADHD way I have endeavored to work it out in my own head so that I can at least make some sense of it.
In all that time of grinding brutal self-analysis, I have got precisely nowhere, other than to have wasted 25 years of my life lost inside my head beating myself up remorselessly, telling myself I am disgusting, deserve it and then wondering why the *** I even bother with it and why I was even born if this was to be the outcome. Life it seems is one big exercise in feeling empty and estranged, a process of dragging oneself to the top of one sand dune, only to see more stretching to the horizon as far as the eye can see. Life to me seems entirely pointless and to exist for no reason other than for the inconvenience and annoyance of self-righteous normies who want an object of derision with which to compare themselves favorably to.
To make matters worse, all that time if being lost in my own head trying to work it out means that I am not ‘attentive’ to the needs of others, not ‘present’ in the things that matter to make happy families, it also means I am entirely self absorbed. Yes. I am. Absorbed by questions of why I am seen this way, and endless constant action replays of whatever method of exit stage left I have been considering at the moment. I know I can’t do it, but for some reason even the though is soothing. How desperately sad.
So it is in this way that I have come to despise my physical needs, desires and longings for human touch. I have come to hate my need for love and have tried everything under to sun to stop having any feeling. Drugs. Drinking. Dangerous activities, I ended up on happy pills that left me feeling nothing at all, because I thought that would be preferable. I discovered that there are two ways to misery: caring too much, and not caring at all about anything. After all, what is the point when you care about nothing at all? When you are so detached from your feelings that it’s like an outer body experience. THAT is not life. THAT is not living. I refuse to be a mindless zombie so I don’t offend the sensibilities of others.
So that’s where I am at, still struggling every hour of every day to understand, still running simply trying to stand still, still hating all I am, still taking on the rejection of others and amplifying to a deafening and all-consuming roar so that it almost blots out the sun. Still spending my days fantasizing about death and cursing myself for having children and them blocking the one exit from this nightmare that I have.
I do actually semi understand why it is this way believe it or not, it is simply that it doesn't’t help to know, because try as I might, I still fail to live up to expectations. So my crippled self-esteem, my entire sense of self is subsumed by it, leaving me having NO idea who I even am. Nothing. Just blank and defective and broken.
“Love is not love which alters when it alteration finds.” I have come to see my condition as one of profound disabilities in engaging in meaningful human relationships. I feel that I am unable to form a meaningful relationship with intimacy, affection, love, admiration, desire, joy of sharing. None of these are things that I see as possible in my life. Just filling time empty of joy till I can finally get the hell out of here.
Are you getting treatment?
Submitted by adhd32 on
There seems to be more than ADD going on.
Jon - This is heartbreakingly
Submitted by SweetandSour on
Jon - This is heartbreakingly sad. I am so sorry you feel this way even some of the time. I hope writing it down relieved your feelings a bit. I think my partner feels just the way you do; he's verbalized a lot of similar stuff though never written it down. I've seen previous posts by you and they do help me understand better the dark side of the ADHD experience of life.
You are depressed. People without ADHD also have these types of feelings. Every woman I've ever known or heard of has felt "unlovable, undesirable, unattractive, and rejected" at some point or points in their life. These types of feelings are universal. Maybe the ability to not allow them to take over, to see that they are temporary, is more present when one doesn't have ADHD. There are ways to feel better. I think you have to practice self-compassion. You have to tell yourself good things. I'm sure you have good qualities and I'm sure you have things in your life to be grateful for. Please try to think about those things - maybe write down those things in a journal or share them here - we don't know you - we won't contradict you. One treatment for depression is to do something for somebody else. Do somebody a favor.
We each only have one life - we shouldn't spend it beating ourselves up. Or beating other people up. We're really all in the same boat - ADHD or non, male or female, etc. etc. - we have more in common than we have differences. I am sorry for all the times you have been hurt - for your own sake, please just try to forgive yourself and others - we're all only human.
No no, this I think is one of
Submitted by Jon on
No no, this I think is one of the key cavernous disconnects of understanding between those with ADHD and those without. The label ‘selfish’ is enormously loaded, it is an assessment of a character failing. It indicates a conscious decision was and is made to be self-centered to the detriment of those around us.
It implies that in our consideration of priorities we have put ourselves top and center, IF we have even taken the time to consider other people in our lives.
I have spent my entire life fielding accusations of being selfish. It is something that I am acutely sensitive to. I have spent a great deal of time considering this because it seems to me something I have always struggled with. At some point, after being labeled something for so long I think you either take ownership of it or you can push back on the accusation.
The simplest way I can think of (and forgive me if it is overly simplistic) to explain is this.
Imagine if you had to think about what you were doing every time you walked from point A to point B. Instead of simply desiring to go there and have your body and mind act in concert to make it happen, instead you had to consider the entire process, of which leg to life from what point for how long, of how and when to move the other leg so that you have some points of contact to balance, of how to counterbalance so that you don’t fall backwards or forwards. Now imagine you had do that for ALL your movements. Pretty soon you would be under such a cognitive load focusing on all those activities, that your brain would be entirely pre occupied with simply walking, there would be no room or space in your mind to consider other things that would normally be of a great deal of importance. You would become almost entirely self-absorbed in the activity of moving, something that the person next to you can simply do without giving it a single conscious thought.
And so it is with ADHD. The most basic of things you never ever have to consciously consider need to be manually loaded into memory, they need to be run line by line, they need to be checked and rechecked so that they don’t embarrass or humiliate or expose us. Every conversation needs to be run in parallel, when someone is talking to me I am always running through a whole range or responses, I am processing them all, weighing them for appropriateness in the given circumstance. Picking them apart to make sure I don’t just blurt out something embarrassing.
There is a very distinct difference between being ‘self-centered’ and ‘selfish’. I totally get that we ADHD people can and often DO end up both, but it’s worth separating them because they are not the same.
I am not seeking to excuse bad behavior, cheating, betrayal, gambling, lying etc. I really don’t think that ADHD provides cover for this kind of thing. I do however think that those of us with ADHD operate pretty much full time with a slightly sluggish demeanor and with a permanent sense of dysthymia: that ever constant state of feeling mildly depressed in mood. I know myself it takes me a motherload of stupidly strong coffee to blow the cobwebs out in the morning. This situation, when you consider it is entirely understandable. Our condition is the result of dysregulation of the dopamine system, which is the core of the motivation and reward system of the brain. So we lack the natural chemicals that regulate the perception of activities we see as rewarding. As a result we seek them from external sources. Anything that ‘feels good’ is a potential candidate. Thus in the absence of the ability to make, process or regulate our feel good hormones, we attempt to do so via external means. The flipside to this, is that because our ‘reward’ system is nearly entirely external, like a ‘bolt on’ addition, it means we avoid negative influence on our reward system at all costs. We have no armor of resilience because in large part our sense of self is based on something we have conjured up, not something that is inherent inside ourselves that we have the option to lean on. Our sense of self is liable to bend with every breeze that blows.
I guess what I am getting at, is that virtually EVERY ADHD person will appear self-absorbed. You should know that for the most part it’s likely they are locked in a self-imposed exile, wound up like a spring and afraid they will be revealed as the blithering fraudulent idiot they feel they really are, hiding and pretending to be something we are not just so we can blend in and not be found out. I can’t help but feel a great deal of the aberrant behavior and the anger and the rage are simply products of a lifetime of immense frustration and stress of feeling so completely estranged from the world around. I know I carry immense rage at the world for this reason.
Always enjoy what you have to say Jon, but I disagree w/this...
Submitted by c ur self on
(The label ‘selfish’ is enormously loaded, it is an assessment of a character failing. It indicates a conscious decision was and is made to be self-centered to the detriment of those around us.)
IF I call a group of people or even someone I do not know on a personal level; "Selfish" that is labeling or judging both are bad IMO....
But If I experience someone's life ( likes, dislikes,choices, priorities, pursuits, words, etc...) on a personal and intimate level daily..day after day for years....The truth of what this life is producing isn't my or anyone else's assessment...It can be viewed, and experienced, and is viewed and experienced by their spouses and children....But, I'm fine with it, (fine as in; I know what to expect, so I never count on them to be any different)....
After years of self punishment, I've come to realize, many of us (People) create our own personal problems (for the most part) when it comes to others...We want to believe what we wished was true, and what may be true for us...Instead of what is happening and being lived out right in front of us daily....
c
Of course. You have a
Submitted by Jon on
Of course. You have a context you are using it within and the direct experience to back it up, so I am not seeking to take that away from you, only to point out that 'selfish' is an accusation that is often used as a weapon against many ADHD people, a bit like 'lazy' is, and that as a characterization is not always either helpful or accurate. There are not many ways to better fire me up or get me offside that to call me selfish is all I can say, and I would hazard a guess I would not be the only person with ADHD who would feel this way.
We have heard it a LOT.
That is why I've come to hate the label add/adhd....
Submitted by c ur self on
I read these posts by people here who for some reason ( and I know the reason) who have decided it's OK to laugh at their spouses and how they work around them...All that is, is disrespect and their desire to Control....They tell their selves it OK, cause my dear H or dear W....Has a disability.....That is a sad thing!
c
Yes me too. I loath it with
Submitted by Jon on
Yes me too. I loath it with a passion. Mostly because I know that my 'ADHD' in and of itself doesn't really cause me much direct pain, it's the fact that I'm a square peg being bashed into a round hole that really causes the problems. I actually think it would be entirely possible to raise a well adjusted child with ADHD if we were able to adjust society to suit and as such I see this thing as more a social disease born out of a lack of tolerance for difference and diversity. I also have to bite my tongue frequently when reading some of these comments and tell myself that 'this is a person at the end of their tether' and that they can't possibly be expected to grasp what it's like to be ADHD and more than they might be able to relate to someone with Aspergers. Most of the time mocker/laugher/derision can be seen in the context of simply letting of steam, it is a shame though that much of what is a place for public discussion ends up being a bitch fest against ADHD spouses. Meh. It's not all that surprising I guess.
Some times things aren't fine....
Submitted by c ur self on
If we just stick to real life and what we are willing to accept, then we don't have to hide our own crap behind someone else's life style...Hey it's OK to be who we are....None of us are the same, and many of us aren't ever going to be able to be contented, or pleased with the life styles of our spouses...It's like you say, it's diversity...And as adults, we can choose for ourselves which path we will follow....The reality of my wife's life choices and pursuits, will never stop me from having the freedom to follow my own path....As for as my marriage relationship, we will get out of it what we put into it....
c
If only it were so simple. I
Submitted by Jon on
If only it were so simple. I have spend so much of my life second guessing myself that some days I hardly know which way is up. I can't even imagine a world were we would be free to be ourselves without arriving at adulthood already beaten to an unrecognizable pulp. One thing that is very much missing here in general and this is probably just a refection of what it's like out there, is what you have expressed: It's OK to be you. Well for the most part here that is not the case. Not if you are ADHD. Because if you are then you need to start of the basis that you have a long list of changes and things you need to change in order to be welcome to the 'normal human' club. It's an ADHD support forum for those without it. lol.
"The Normal Human Club" LOL
Submitted by c ur self on
I should do everyone a favor and stop posting then....Normal? Is there really such a thing? Does that mean you've never been abused? Does that mean you've never sinned? What is normal? My wife say's I'm a liar, adhd and bi-polar when she's mad at me....But if she is happy w/ me....She says' it's only a mild case.....
It's OK to be ourselves....But if "being myself" means I have to use, disrespect or hurt others to be myself....I should take myself on down the road....And I can do that.....
c
No there probably IS no such
Submitted by Jon on
No there probably IS no such thing as normal, but I guess I use it in this context to mean those without ADHD. Because at least they like to think they are entirely normal. And no don't stop posting, nor will I. These people need to hear it from those of us who live it rather than it simply being a bitch fest among spectators all speculating furiously about the underlying degeneracy of our moral shortcomings and all the while getting zero in the way of helpful insight.
And I agree also about 'being ourself's' not being any kind of excuse to be a asshat. That is most definitely not something I am suggesting, I strongly advocate for every person to make every effort to be a decent human being, it's really not so hard regardless of the challenges faced.
I avoid generalizations. I
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
I avoid generalizations. I will describe my experiences with my former spouse but not assume that they apply to other people. I tell folks here if I can relate to their situations. I don't like it when people who come here, either those with ADHD or those without ADHD, say "everyone who is ADHD feels this way" or "everyone who doesn't have ADHD feels this way" or "this is what I do in my marriage and therefore you should do it, too, because ..." (with reasons ranging from marriage is 'til death do us part to one should escape a bad marriage while one is young to God doesn't believe in divorce to God doesn't believe in suffering for the sake of suffering etc. etc.).
I agree PI....
Submitted by c ur self on
I've posted here many times, and made all the mistakes you listed...But it's not OK...Not everyone has the same convictions, and never will as long as time continues as it is currently....But everyone is important....Probably more important than any of us knows.....
it's extremely difficult for people to be totally rational, when they are speaking from deep hurt and pain.....
c
This is the way I see it. If
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
This is the way I see it. If a man uses 100% of his efforts focusing on getting himself from point a to point b, I would call that man self centered. If a man uses 100% of his efforts focusing getting himself from point a to point be and he also manipulates his wife into spending All of her time and energy getting him from point a to point b, I would call that man selfish.
I completely agree with you that there is a difference between self centered and selfish. You should realize, however, that some of us really do live with people that are selfish. Whether it’s intentional or not, it’s still selfish. Whether it’s caused by adhd or not, it’s still selfish in my opinion.
;) HH
Submitted by c ur self on
Hopeful Heart...I love that screen name...We should all have a hopeful heart...You are a wise lady!
c ur self;)
I would call them self
Submitted by Jon on
I would call them self absorbed. As in absorbed in the effort of propelling self from point A to point B. If said person has enough free presence of mind to manipulate their partner into spending ALL their time and energy in doing it for them then there are in my view a few things going on. One is that the person in question is not really fully absorbed in the activity and DOES have free thought processes and energies to invest in others, as can be evidenced by the fact they have time to manipulate, secondly the person being manipulated (and being aware that they are being manipulated) is being a hapless victim. Both carry some responsibility in this situation.
I do of course realize that some really do live with a selfish spouse, however there is nothing that says because someone has ADHD they are a selfish person. Many of those selfish spouses are entirely non ADHD.
Dealing with selfishness in a
Submitted by c ur self on
Dealing with selfishness in a marriage is difficult....If you want to be with this person that you love and vowed to honor, it can be a hard place...I don't know about others on this forum, but, I've learned many of the red flags concerning selfishness (I don't care if it's add or not, it's just wrong)....Ask yourself a few questions....How often do I approach me spouse about a mutual subject (it can be anything) and inquire..."What do you think about so and so?...How often does your spouse ask you?....When planning for big vacations in or out of the Country how does the planning go? Who want go if they can't set the schedule? Or which one of you (if either) will attempt to change an agreed upon plan (control and manipulation) on the spur of the moment and expect it to be OK.LOL? Then get angry and pout and ruin the trip when they can't have their way? Hopefully nobody reading this has had to deal with these difficult situations.....
We never have to judge our spouse, but, we do need to learn who they are, and except it...No matter how different we are, or how much the difference's forces us apart....IMO, it's better to respectfully accept being apart much of the time, based on different realities that want mesh. Than trying to force it, and end up being miserable because of the competing that happens with totally different life views...
It's OK to be ourselves.....Accept it, no matter the out come....If I don't like the out come, maybe I should consider seeing myself??
c
Jon--I cannot tell you how
Submitted by dvance on
Jon--I cannot tell you how much I appreciate you posting here. It is very helpful to hear from an ADHD person on these boards. I think about the distinction between selfish and self absorbed a LOT. I have been married to my ADHD spouse for 23 years and while I know he loves me and would take a bullet for me or our two boys, living with him is really hard. We have no connection beyond surface stuff. He cannot hold a conversation for any length of time without something else catching his eye or some thought floating through his head that he needs to voice and then the original conversation is never returned to. He has no opinion about pretty much anything I ask him, but he will actively undermine things I do if he doesn't like them. If I say, "can we talk in three days about X", three days from now, he will tell me he hasn't had a chance to think about it or he forgot. If I text him during the day, he may or may not answer me, there is no rhyme or reason to it. He has a terrible sense of time: last week he was doing a side job 30 minutes away. At 5:15 he texted me and said he was leaving there in 15 minutes. He walked in the door at 8pm. Where did all the lost time go? He said he stopped for gas. But there are two hours unaccounted for. In no universe does it take two hours to get gas. What do I do with that? That type of thing has been going on for so long I don't even register it any more, I only use it as an example here. Now, he holds down a very demanding job, cooks, helps with the boys-the news is not all bad, but it's not the marriage I wanted. There is no mature, deep connection about anything.
I guess I wonder if it takes that much mental energy to get through a day for an ADHD brain, and I don't doubt that it does, how are those of us in your lives supposed to live with the teeny bit of leftovers and make a satisfying life? If we manage all the things you cannot (and I use YOU as in all of the ADHD people), how does that make for an equitable relationship? It doesn't, and for some that works, for others it does not. If sometimes you are able to pay attention to us and the relationship and sometimes you're not, how do we adjust to that? If you have read any of my other posts, you know that my DH has been physically NOT present for a lot of our marriage: stationed in other states, deployed, moved out to find himself. During those periods I had no choice but to manage everything. When he returned, each time we struggled mightily to become partners again and each time it got harder. For the past 6 years he has traveled for business and it's the same way-if he is out of town for a week, of course I do all the things. And when he gets back BOOM we are a smooth partnership again??? Maybe strong healthy marriages with no ADHD can do that, I cannot. That reminds me of ADHD itself. There are periods when my DH is fully present--I can see it on his face and in his body language-he listens, remembers, acts appropriately, all is well. And then for no reason I can discern (there probably isn't one) he checks out for a period of time. So then what. I should happily be a partner for the times he is WITH us and then snap back into full management mode when he checks out only to step back into partner again when he returns to us?? Even as I type this I realize the answer is actually YES I should, but for all the years of therapy we have had, I cannot figure this out. The up and down, inconsistent nature of our marriage has been the most difficult, frustrating, unsatisfying thing for me. I cannot feel like I have a dependable partner for three weeks, say, and then poof-he goes away (either physically or emotionally) and I am on my own for the next month then OH LOOK YOU'RE BACK! That roller coaster is just exhausting. The last counselor we saw, where I said I cannot come to therapy any more, I am all talked out, said he worried that my disengaging meant that something inside of me was withered up, that something inside of me had given up and died. That is 100% accurate. I can no longer do the emotional up and down. I wish my DH would find another woman who finds him as charming and funny and whimsical and quirky as I did 20 years ago because I don't any more. What was cute when we were 26 is not cute at age 50. His ability to watch endless loops of The Office or Parks and Rec or make inappropriate sexual jokes in front of our 19 year old son's girlfriend--I don't find that funny any more. His lack of follow through was not that big of a deal when we were 25. It is now. The fact that we are the only people with piles of junk around our cars in the apartment parking spaces isn't cute any more. The fact that he has gotten fired from the last three jobs after three years, not great at age 50. The older you get the harder it is to find a job. At age 50 most folks have been pretty stable in their field not looking for work yet again. Right now he is on the 4th job in 9 years--the last three were literally almost 3 years to the day that he was fired. When you are just starting out in your field it's okay to flail around a bit, not so much at age 50.
So where am I going with all of this? Who knows, but Jon-I do thank you for being so honest on these boards. You give me much to think about.
dv
DV,
Submitted by Jon on
DV,
Well first thing I can say is that if you have been through all of that AND are still there then in my view you are a hero. Seriously, ADHD partner or not, you have the right to find some sense of happiness and fulfillment and by the sounds of it, you have surely struggled for a long time. I think one thing personally I struggle with sometimes is reading the obvious amount of pain that the ADHD person has caused someone and reconciling that with my own life. I know I have caused a lot but to read as you have expressed it really does hit home. The words "roller-coaster" really stand out. They have been used MANY times in my household and I agree it IS exhausting. Look I don't know what to say, other than I don't know how or why you put up with it, I honestly don't.
Please remember to look after yourself first and foremost, he's big enough and ugly enough to look after himself.
How do I successfully
Submitted by Libby on
How do I successfully communicate my feelings about not wanting to accommdate him in this area anymore? Anyone? I could really use some advice.
You cannot really without
Submitted by Jon on
You cannot really without blowing it all to smithereens in my view. Which if you are at that point, it sounds like the only thing to do. Trust me, regardless, he will hate you for it, if you stay together then the pressure and frustration and pent up anger and rage will simply make life unlivable, if you go your separate ways, he will still resent and blame you.
There may be a slim chance if approached in the right way, you might be able to reconfigure the situation such that sex and or intimacy are not simply things to be 'expected' but things in a relationship that are 'earned'. But then, you may not want to, in which case the right thing to do is walk away. A sexless marriage is a joyless grind full of resentment in all but the most unusual of marriages.
If you don't want to say no, and I make NO judgments on that, it is 100% your right to say no and that's a permanent arrangement then it's basically all over anyway IMHO. It's all but impossible to come back from that, even less likely in 6 or 12 months when you have had to deal with the explosions and he has had to deal with feeling ugly and unwanted. This situation is an ill wind that blows nobody any good.
And where am I in all of this
Submitted by Libby on
And where am I in all of this? I have given for years and still screamed at daily. How can I possibly set that aside? I say he can live with the resentment.
Yeah but it's not about him,
Submitted by Jon on
Yeah but it's not about him, it's about you. He mays stew and ruminate and seeth and be moody etc, but you are the one that has to live with this in your life constantly. And as much as it may seem like the simple answer is to build walls to keep this kind of thing out, ultimately the years of stress, the sense of regret at the life you may have hoped for, and the sheer exhaustion of it all will render your life FAR less satisfying and meaningful than may otherwise be the case. You only get one crack at living this life and seeking all the joy and satisfaction from it that you can. Don't give it away to someone who makes you feel like crap. Apologies If I sound like I don't empathize. Quiet the opposite. I am the ADHD in my relationship. I see the damage and destruction wrought on the person I love and the family that I care for. I know the stress and strain and heartache that you are feeling because I see it and feel it in my own life every day. All I am saying in my typically blunt way is that, you don't deserve to be miserable and by building walls it will simply make the angst and misery much worse in the long run. If it's that bad, run fast and far.