Is this from ADHD? It doesn't matter

I am sorry you are devastated.

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Fri, 04/22/2016 - 00:24

RoseRed,

I am thinking a whole lot about joy. I am reminded these past few days about my own joy. I have been spending a lot of time and effort trying to be heard. Understood.

I am going to be following joy. I am believing anguish should be about things that are outa my control.....cancer, accidents, death, fires, calamities from weather. I really am doing a top notch job at a lot of things. I have 2 wonderful adult children. I have a blessed relationship with my parents. I have a great group of friends who I meet with to scrapbooking. I have another group of friends.....we met when our daughters all took dance lessons together over 15 years ago. I have 3 sisters who are dear to me. I have new friends I met over the past few years in college.

And this craziness I have shared on this forum. Trying to make adjustments that are good for me....well I am just gonna keep on making them.

Because they are good for me.

Very truly,

Liz

Re: Is it ADD? It doesn"t matter

Submitted by Zapp10 on Fri, 04/22/2016 - 08:28

I have followed so many of you over the past few years.....and find myself leery of offering my thoughts because.....I don't know "enough" or "understand" enough to have an opinion? On this topic or let alone life. Even that statement itself bothers me. I was so grateful to find this forum where ones could put their thoughts/experiences to paper. Through this I began to navigate seeing myself, seeing my H and seeing others and I have come to "see" that this is life.....

When something goes"wrong" we seek to understand. We learn, we grow, we stumble, we get back up. Our intention is to not "do harm". I find the statement" the 2 shall become 1" very interesting and telling. Is this a multiple choice ? Which of the 2 are the 1 going to be? His way? her way? Mutual agreement? Mutual respect and compromise? and yes, love. While definitions are universal, individuality is not....and how people perceive things......holy cow? THAT is NOT what I said! How did you GET THAT from what I said?

I have a much clearer understanding of me and my H now. I have opinions, insights and views. I am more discerning in these things and how I address/see others(including myself) I have needs, he has needs simply because we are human..... Marriage is a HUGE HUGE deal. Starting one and ending one.....oh my...what were we thinking? Why didn't we ASK "what do you mean when you say you LOVE ME? What do I mean when I say I LOVE YOU? HELLO?

Then let's add ADD. Enough said. Because as time marches on and years go by you start seeing what "2 become 1" means to them and the vicious cycle begins. "HEY! I'm over here! Do you SEE ME? Do you REMEMBER ME?" How long have we poured our love into this? Is it possible for "the well to run dry"? Shame on us for not loving enough, giving enough..sigh. ..and now? Now I see that I do love my H as a, at times ...thoughtful, fun loving, hardworking, has needs too, warts and all..... person. I see, I have always loved his individuality and I see, that I am responsible for letting go of who I was, in order to continue loving him. Once again, I did something wrong. So now, here we are....afraid to let go.....of what? Actually daring to dream of "someone" possibly willing and able to fill that well that needs a little bit of water? I don't dream those dreams(I am going to be a "victim" here, I am too old and have nothing to offer) but I do dream.......of a PEACEFUL, fulfilling life. And I want my H to have that too.....and that will be a WIN WIN for both of us. Together or apart is no longer an issue for me.....now I will need strength and patience as H comes to terms with this. I honestly believe that the effort required for him to "address" the ADD is monumental to him. He can't find a "place" to start. I no longer fault him for this. It is what it is, what it is NOT is the end....because there is joy just outside that closed door.

The heading for the post....Is it ADD? It doesn't matter.....obviously drove it home for me today.

I will continue to follow as my H will always be a part of my life and any insight is valuable to me in understanding him.

1 plus 1 equaled 1

Submitted by jennalemone on Fri, 04/22/2016 - 09:42

Wow! That said it so well!. Part of this process for me is to put words to my situation. Which is the first step in solving a problem.

"...I am responsible for letting go of who I was, in order to continue loving him." Exactly..... the letting go of who I was, in order to continue loving him....part. I absolutely did that too.

Am I responsible for that? My counselor would say, "Yes," But...... I was told as a young girl to repeat "I promise to honor and obey." And it was proclaimed that " the two shall be come one."... I came from a time when being a nice, good, obedient girl was drummed into me starting at a young age. I myself was conditioned to NEVER lying and NEVER going back on a promise... It was said "You are only as good as your word". I knew I was in trouble after those vows and they surprised me when, in front of the church I grew up in, the minister told me to repeat "...promise to obey". ...according to God's holy ordinances. I was conditioned and taught to "give" my life away for love.....that was the holy goal.

Was I responsible for letting go of who I was? What does a pregnant young girl brought up this way do to make a marriage work with someone who, above all, values his independence and fun? I "sacrificed". Which is another theme of my bringing up.

I take NO responsibility for responding with submissiveness to my marriage to H in the past. It was a conditioned and learned behavior.

But, now, as I learn and put words and perspective on Life and the living of life, I DO take responsibility going forward. I am responsible for my own decisions and can dare to go outside of those old rites and promises that were made under duress - the duress of saying in front of witnesses in front of church to "obey" H. I have the challenge to open my eyes and see and feel what I am dealing with and making decisions based on just me....not US....because "The Two have Become One." was not a reality in my case. The two have become HIM. .... And I lost a very good person by losing myself in this... And I enabled someone else to become a tyrant. I vow to let my self live and have a voice.

Two DON"T Become One

Submitted by Delphine on Sun, 04/24/2016 - 18:00

Wanted to weigh in on this point. It is a bit paradoxical. Am sure you've heard the old saw that we all are one. Thus, we don't "become" one in marriage.
We are always and forever connected.

On the other hand, we retain our individuality...or we should. A lot of the problems in relationships with those who have ADHD or other issues, come from giving up our essential selves as we take on their problems , pouring our energies into them and "making it work." This is what it means to be codependent. I have assuredly been there, and am still working on staying aware of these tendencies in myself. Like you jennalemone, I have taken a vow to live and express myself fully.
Ultimately, I am the one getting in my own way with that!

Yeah, forget "two become one." That is old energy thinking. Make it more about, "I become more of ME." Ultimately, this is what's best for others we are relating to, as well.

Here's to embracing our true, powerful selves!

Delphine

Amen

Submitted by kellyj on Sun, 04/24/2016 - 19:17

ditto

As my dear old mother use to put it to me....."if you want to have friends...you need to be a friend and be someone, someone else would want to be with." Apply what you just said to that and you have a winning combination! Again....I concur Delphine:)

Your Mom had it right J

Submitted by Delphine on Sun, 04/24/2016 - 19:36

Winning combo indeed :)

The 'why' no longer matters.

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Fri, 04/22/2016 - 12:16

Zapp10.

I believe where each and every one of us are today - - what we understand, how much we know - - it is enough to have an opinion to share.

What I know - my souse and I, we have 2 different personalities, he's a man, I'm a woman, I have learned some things that can keep the arguments at bay. The only thing I can do is change my goal.

My goal for a very long time has been to learn and improve conflict resolution. I measure the success for my relationship by how we can make each other happy and work through disagreements. Getting to the place of never disagreeing - - -that ain't gonna happen. There are 1,000 ways to do every job correctly. There is not one perfect way. Mutual respect for differences is a good goal.

Preserving 'family' and preserving 'marriage' . . . . well, I am looking at them in very different ways in the past few days. No doubt about it, it is hard work. When the balance tips, and it becomes hours and days and weeks and months on end of trying to get a square peg in a round hole.. . . . . . . . . I lost the gumption.

For Liz, what I want, what I desire is my dignity. Not haughtiness, not prideful audacity - - - - things that I see, things that cause me fear, things that cause deep concern. . . . they stir up agitation. When one party needs to address an issue, and one party does not see the issue. . . .that in itself is a problem - for both people. He said, she said, no I didn't, yes you did, I am hurting, no you're not. . . . . . enough already.

I no longer want to be stuck in the prison of feeling there is something wrong with me.

Liz surely has changed. And has firmed up her backbone. And develop some strengths. And has some boundaries. They are causing a bit of an inconvenience. If my choice is revert back . . . . . I do not choose to do it. My choice is to embrace who I have become, and allow my spouse to embrace it. I am not choosing a victim mentality of "Woe is me I cannot make him happy." I got a piss and vinegar attitude of "I have arrived. I like me. We could accomplish a lot."

ADHD is a piece of the equation. One man is a piece of the equation. One woman is a piece of the equation. Post menopause is part of the equation. Debt is part of the equation. My shift in attitude from "Every thing is about my spouse's joy" to "Hey, some of this stuff ain't bringing Liz joy." is rough. I am embracing it.

Liz

Jenna and Liz

Submitted by Zapp10 on Fri, 04/22/2016 - 16:24

You are, at the very least, determined and I love that. You both also take into account your "half" or what ever portion applies. You do see yourselves. I feel much the same way. Sometimes I think I am trying to convince myself it is "okay" to make a decision on this situation because......my life is sooo much shorter and there is not alot of time left.

I made mistakes that have nothing to do with H's ADD. So did he. I told him " I feel like you are getting a double whammy because we all have issues to address and then you have an additional one." The ADD is NO ONES fault.....but like it or not you have it and it makes not just marriage INSANE!!! but your life in and of itself.

I can have "thick skin" where and when necessary but as the old saying goes" I told ya I loved ya the day we married......if anything changes I'll let you know". ....I can't remember the last time I heard it said with any form of emotion.Who doesn't like to hear that? ( Is that why instead of " I do" you said "yes".....like you were just asked to do something you weren't sure of?) Just like my suggesting doing something and you reply flatly" yea maybe we'll do that someday" I came to learn that statement meant ....never. And then you complain I don't suggest doing anything...OMG!

All the years that transpired have not been all on him. But going forward.....if I have to see myself......so does he. This is OUR marriage which speaks directly to OUR lives. I have no intention of "bad" mouthing him or laying "blame"and I am well aware of the "does not play well with others" side of him(NOT ADD related,came from childhood.....oh don't get me started.) Which brings me to a question out of curiosity.....Does upbringing exacerbate ADD? Obviously I am referring to "they did the best they knew how" but HOLY! his upbringing was very sad, devoid of emotion, interaction and for all appearances lack of concern)

He just can't seem to "get" even an inkling of how to do this and I sure don't suggest I know so what is left? My opinion....he needs to start asking himself where, how, when or why.....but I have a sad feeling(for him) that it will fall under...".maybe someday..."..LOL

PS I am hanging out today doing my own thing cause it's my birthday......small yay or big YAY!?

Zapp...Happy B-Day!

Submitted by kellyj on Fri, 04/22/2016 - 17:47

I think you are on to something here...

Right....he needs to know the answers to the where, how, when and why....not so much you. Unfortunately...if you are being made responsible for what he is suppose to be.....you start doing that for him by default to pick up the slack. I think that's what happens by no ones fault of their own?

It is a good idea though....to understand it enough for yourself...so you know "What" to do? I've said this before and I will say it again....from the ADHD side of things.....we're the ones who have to be paying attention to those this and to a certain degree...you have to in order to do anything about them and be able to recognize and differentiate the "wheat" from the "chaff"...so to speak. That does tell us what to do and how to work around these things.

But in that respect.....it's not your job to do this (for us/your H ). He has to do that for himself. Your "what"....is not to assume you know as it sounds like you have already arrived at in your thinking? A person has to want to do this.... and you certainly can't do that for him. All you can do is not be responsible for the things...you are not responsible for? If you choose to that at different times for what ever reason....at least that's your choice. Nothing wrong with that either?

Yes I agree

Submitted by Zapp10 on Fri, 04/22/2016 - 23:12

Thank you for reiterating the importance of not doing what comes too easily.....trying to "help". It really does get easier the more you step back. It was very hard to do which is probably on the same par with them acknowledging their situation. I have swore off bringing up ADD period. I also do not stand by but kindly interject when he is conversing with company and it becomes more of him "informing" them on a topic which I know they know about. He cannot pick up the body language that says" uh hello?". When he gets in that mode he is very often unapproachable in anyway without "risk" My code has been "ok cliff "(which references Cliff Claven from Cheers) Sometimes it goes well and others.....

I so appreciate your insight. However it goes for us I will KNOW I did ALL I could and GAVE all I had towards the marriage.That beats leaving/ staying pissed, angry, frustrated and defeated. Odd...I didn't think of love....not sure what to make of that?

I truly get it

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Sat, 04/23/2016 - 09:48

Zapp10,

However it goes for us I will KNOW I did ALL I could and GAVE all I had towards the marriage.That beats leaving/ staying pissed, angry, frustrated and defeated. This is where I basically am at this time of my life, too. That last word - defeated - I am working through that. I am defeated at 'walking hand and hand into the sunset in our old age.'

I have worked towards getting back "that lovin' feeling." I can explain why it isn't working by sticking to sharing my disappointment in current events during the past 5 years. I certainly do have a lot less patience in trying to be understood - and have ascertained it is not my job. My job is to explain myself, or simply just share myself. What is Liz doing wrong? Explaining. And justifying.

The more I have stepped back, the more I have realized that the amount of things that are beyond my control, well, they are overwhelming.

ADHD is a real part of our lives. It is not the paramount thing. Sure, undiagnosed it led to some frustration. Understood, it is like nearsightedness - put on glasses, and voila', everything becomes clear. Refuse to wear glasses, and everything is blurry and confusing.

Code words and cues have not worked. They were suggested a couple of times by different professionals. As I see it, the parent/child dynamic interfered. It only works - any of these suggestions we find - if both parties agree to them.

Hope your birthday was special!

Very truly,

Liz

All the Above Zapp and Liz

Submitted by kellyj on Sat, 04/23/2016 - 12:01

I guess you do need to be readyto hear it. If you are not ready....you don't want to hear it? So many of the things I use to do are so much easier to deal with than before. The biggest part of that comes from just learning to "watch yourself." That standing back you are talking about is the same thing I do for myself (now) and once you do that....it's hard not to notice (yourself that is). And when that actually happens....there's just no denying it anymore because you start to see it too. I think this is a skill that you need to develop and I've often wondered if this is something....not having ADHD.....that most people don't need to do as much? Or need to do at all because it just comes naturally? I don't know which of course but I'm speculating that a little bit of both are probably true?

Funny how this all translates?

Denial = lots of time and energy wasted in hiding, covering up, not letting go of things, trying to prove others are wrong, defending, being "prickly" and irritable, and powerless to do anything about the symptoms which never get addressed or worked on because this gets in the way of that which only makes you depressed and feel hopeless.....which in turn.....others have to let go of these things, deal with the symptoms and feel powerless to do anything about it which makes (you spouses) feel hopeless and depressed and defending and being "prickly" and .....so on down the line.

No Denial = Means letting go of certain things, standing back and observing yourself, watching for these things so you can avoid them in the future, wanting to know these things, wanting to have cues to help you do this, learning how to manage them and lesson their impact which empowers you to make changes, which makes you less depressed, less "prickly", more aware and better able to manage them etc....which in turn.....makes it easier for others to be around you, gives others the opportunity to use "cues" and help you watch for these things and point them out as needed, which happens less anyway since (the person with ADHD) is getting better at doing this for themselves which requires less work and help from others....which makes (you spouses)feel more empowered, feel less hopeless and depressed and less irritable which only makes you easier to be around and both people are much happier and it takes far less work and effort overall and less conflicts and everyone is so much better off instead?

Just from getting rid of the denial part for a start? That's how I'm seeing it at this point and it seems to working exactly as I just said for my wife and I. I don't get upset or pissy if she just points out my symptoms to me (ort uses cue words) in fact....I want my wife to do this and what I have found out about this is interesting?

I have repeatedly told my wife to let me know any time she is having a problem with any of these things. I want to know! And when she does.....it doesn't bother me....because I want to know. lol I need that to help me do what I'm doing and she is an invaluable set of eyes that helps me do this right? No problem you'd think?

But in that respect....my wife has her own denial issues shes is contending with from her own rocky childhood and alcoholic parent and much of that within her family (and brother) is still not being talking about and swept under the rug. She's super touchy about bringing any of this up and is really super sensitive about being open and willing to talk about it.....therefore.....since she's so sensitive and touchy about these kinds of things....in a wierd reversal here in her mind.....therefore.....using cue words, pointing things out in this nature and being protective and or defensive about it means to her.....to not do what i want her to do sometimes out of the fear of how I might react base on how she would react to it so therefore....it difficult for her to give me constructive criticism and help me do what I'm trying to do because of that?

In other words....if it was her and I was giving her cues and such....she wouldn't like it....so therefore....she assumes not to because that would be the kind thing to do....if it were her......even though I'm telling her do it and it doesn't bother me.....which she can't understand....because that would bother her.....so she doesn't do it? lol

How about that one for a weird twist on this scenario? I'm asking her to hit me on the head with this stuff...and she won't do it! lol

The problem with that is.....she does do it but she does it in a way that is problematic....in the form of complaining and nonconstructive criticism and negative feedback?

Ironically....it feels wrong to directly point out the things I want her to by saying so up front....but it doesn't feel wrong to complain and use the negative attributes to these things instead as a means to avoid opening the door for me to give her constructive criticism which is the very thing she doesn't want (but actually needs in the same way I do?..... and want...... but she doesn't want that.....so she won't do it with me....even though I'm asking her too? Now I'm confused???

Actually I'm not.(just joking there at the end) This really is what we've got going right now but I have found in the same way as you Zapp....that not bringing her issues up AT ALL is working better at keeping the peace right now. I think silently at times and even now beginning to talk about things in her own way and in her own time....I'm seeing the changes in her even without talking about them with me. It seems the....talking about it is the hardest part for her all said and done and this just becomes a problem so why do it if she's working on it privately? Being open and trust are a big issue for her and I suspect.....I lot bigger issue with this than I have/or had anyway I choose to see it to see it? She will admit that at well even though that's as far as it goes.....it doesn't really give me much to go on in order to understand her as well? It's why I keep coming back to denial as the source of more issues than the actual issue in itself?

J, maybe denial is the key

Submitted by dedelight4 on Sat, 04/23/2016 - 18:33

I like your last sentence J. Maybe it IS denial that is at the core of almost everyone's healing or NOT healing. ADHD or not, if people refuse to admit that they need to look at their own issues, not much seems to ever get accomplished and they stay "stuck" in a life of learned behaviors they dont understand.

Look at Narcissism (NPD) as a Disorder Dede

Submitted by kellyj on Mon, 04/25/2016 - 11:05

...to start with here. I'm not talking about run of the mill narcissism that, to a certain degree....everyone displays for brief times or even isolated moments depending on external conditions and based of circumstances. Really....part of not being in denial....is admitting that anyone and everyone does have moments to keep an eye on....but it's not a chronic condition as in a disorder like NPD.

As I am now understanding this better.....someone who has a chronic problem with Narcissism cannot see the other side of the story and can only see things from their own point of view in a more self serving way all the time in almost every case you can think of. Somehow....they need to work it into every situation....that they well come out on top or ahead with no respect to anyone else if push comes for shove. The ends always justify the means in every case.

Here is real life examples of Narcissistic behaviors that I can recall from my past. This is a person that I know/have known who has problems with this but he's not a horrible awful person to the point and is really ( I believe ) not doing this with any awareness of knowledge of himself enough to see what he's doing and where he is missing the boat.......

Here's the example of just one person I know who is like this and this is not my father as I have often referred to as a Narc.....

"I get asked if I want a couch for free that this person is giving away. Sure "I can use the couch" I say. Then he ask's if I will help them install some plumbing in a project he is working on. ( I have a whole plumbing out fit I picked up one time from a plumber going out of business for cheap.) Sure...I can do that too. ( I've redone two entire houses already and this is just adding some to a remodel. He says he will even pay me to help him? No...that's Okay...I'll just give you a hand (thinking I'm just lending him an extra set of hands and I don't want to commit to anything. I have a few hours to help someone out and this isn't a problem for me to do)

"No I want to pay you"

"Okay...if that works for you?"....(I don't mind the extra work and could use the money and I would be apt to compensate someone doing me a favor in some way myself even if they insisted not getting paid in cash...that is....in some way even later if necessary? It's what people do...they take turns helping and it all works out in the wash?" ) At least that was my thinking?

This starts out with an offer for something for free....and then a lure of money to get me over there right? This person nows asks when? I say..."I'll let you know what my schedule is like?" They say..."well...can you come tomorrow...that would work out best for me." It's not really the best time for me but....I can work around that without too much of a problem so I say yes....that will work.

So now....it's starts out with something for free which I might not go get for a week or when ever I got around to it.....to going over there tomorrow to help him install a plumbing system which was not in my plan?

Now I get there with my tools and gear....and find that this person is leaving to go do something else and "helping him" was actually doing all the work and he leaves to do something else? Like....WTF??? He just hired me and I didn't even know it and I'm working for him not helping him with the work? That's what the money was all about? So now....the entire job is my responsibility and I have to do the whole job which has a number of problems and issues to contend with and it going to take me the entire day instead of just a few hours and leave when ever I need to go?

And not only did I just get roped into this....I didn't even get to see the job and give him an estimate of my time or pay. So I tell him "look....this is a big job....this is going to take me more than one day to do? He says....that's Okay..."just do what you can and we can talk about it later?"

Uh oh.....this is not looking good already and I can see where this is going... I say..."look...I'm only have time today to do this and whatever I get done will just have to do. "Oh no problem...I'll just talk to you about when I get back from (whatever he was doing) ...later."

Later comes and I've worked all day and got most of the job done anyway..."Oh no....this isn't where I wanted that hose bib....I wanted it back here like I said."

'You didn't say....you left that up to me?"

"Well my wife doesn't want it there so can you move it?" Ah.....after the fact...his wife was the one who didn't like the hose bib in that place and he didn't mind where it was but now....I was suppose to know that....after the fact? But that's not what he said at first...what he said was....I told you where I wanted it....but now....has to concede it was his wife but no matter...."can you move it right now?"

"No....I'm going home since I'm tired and worked all day."

"Oh....but wait....don't you want the couch we talked about?"

"yeah...you know....right now...I'm tired....my truck is full of shit and there's really no room for it...I'll come back for it but it won't be until next week some time...is that Okay?"

"Well.....my wife and I are picking up our new couch this weekend and we need the old one out of here to make room for the new one? Can you do it now....I'll help you load it and move things in your truck."

Son of a Bitch! I can have a free couch...if I come tomorrow and move this heavy beast out of a basement and up a flight of stairs and while I'm at it...install a plumbing system for you but you never intended to "help" as originally stated and tried to squeeze a twp day job into one day to save some money...and then....I have to go back and redo something that he didn't tell me about up front and make a second trip for free to fix it since he's paying for me and I'm actually working for him....but he needs the couch gone right now even though I'm coming back anyway? M*#@^er F*^$#er!!

This is how...this guy rolls....each and every time you do anything with him. This is not an isolated case by any means and he has no qualms or shame in doing this and cannot see anything wrong with this. Not only nothing wrong....but he complains that something that his wife wants later after the fact needs to be redone for free? I feel sorry for his wife even though....she's a part of this dance I'm sure? Between the two of them....neither one see's anything wrong with what this?

Another case of this dynamic duo here.....

He takes his car into a shop that someone gives him a referral. The shop does a poor job and he has to spend more money than he thought to get the entire job done right? He takes it back in and they call him with more work. I tell him...hey...you could have just done XXX and my guy will do this at his regular price which is a fraction of this so called "great shops" price. "Really....what's their phone number?"

He calls my shop and then....has his wife call back the other shop and to tell them to stop work and he wants to "come pick up his car" They tell her they're right in the middle of it as we speak. He tells her...to tell them..."he doesn't trust them now and he doesn't want to pay for any of the work since they had to redo part of the original work and he's taking it somewhere else." This only happened after I told him of another place he could get it cheaper and that was a lie. And he has his wife call the shop since he originally took the car in and she has no knowledge of anything that was spoken about and gives them an excuse that they cannot argue with....for him.

I actually witnessed this in real time since I worked with this guy and heard the entire conversation while sitting in the same room with him.

Do you think he cared that I saw this or cared about any of the problems he created in doing this? And his wife went right along with it and did his dirty work for him and was in on it too?

Later...out of my own frustration with him over another incident like this.... he boldly states..."I'm a Christian....I don't lie." Like somehow....that makes a difference? Everyone has a label even for himself....he always lets everyone know that he's a Christian and therefor I'm...?????"

"a lying sack of shit? Yes....I already know!" Sorry....that's a label as well....but I was just filling in the blanks for him....he could not see that what so ever...even if you said it and tried to explain it too him." His response in every case would be...." I'm a Christian and would never do anything wrong or to hurt anyone since I follow the word of Jesus." Huh????? Like....WTF???

His behavior is manipulative, exploitive, dishonest and with a complete lack of integrity. He showed no remorse, no regret and could not see anything wrong with what he did at all to the point....he see's himself as a virtuous individual because he is an active member of his church and goes to church regularly which proves this to......"himself." And....he believes every word and deed he says and does as being and following in the steps of Jesus.

In the truest sense here....he is in an extreme case of denial but that was the point in going through all of this. It's the denial or the inability to see any of this as being wrong or harmful to anyone else in service of what ever he (or his wife wants) at ANY give stage of what ever is going on in the moment. And that's likely to change depending on the day and how things either change in his favor...on not in his favor....depending on?

With this guy....you always have to be watching your ass since he will use or take advantage of you with little care or regard for your ass....in favor of his own every time!

Narcissism as a disorder....is really just extreme denial in it's purest form. It's almost by definition.... "Extreme Denial Disorder" and nothing else as I'm seeing it?

This goes right along with my feelings about denial in general even if it isn't Narcissism as a disorder. I believe this is what hurts and causes other people pain and to suffer who are not this way. It's not with intention to hurt you....the intention is to serve something else ( not necissarily themselves like NPD) at your expense and this is where I truly believe......people think ADHD is Narcissism so often because the behaviors look and feel the same from experiencing it from the outside.

But in reality....it's not NPD....it's denial....but as I tried to show here.....it does feel the same and the symptoms are very much a like sometimes.

The difference is....someone who is just in denial can move out of denial and see what they are doing and change once they do since their conscience won't allow them too once they can see it.

A Narc (NPD) is not going to respond to that. Their denial is so absolute it seems..... that's where the complete lack of empathy and working conscience really comes into play and why they are probably never going to get it. At least that's how I'm seeing it?

Icing on the Cake

Submitted by kellyj on Mon, 04/25/2016 - 14:32

I just remembered a funny thing that happened the day I was working for this guy at his house on the plumbing even though I thought I was just going over to help this guy with his project instead? This is just a funny side note addition that seemed like adding insult to injury but I still thought it was so ridiculous that it still makes me laugh if I think about it..

When this guy came home from where ever he was that he didn't say.....I had been working all day as I said. I was hot and grimey and sweating profusely due to the digging and routing of the pipes I was installing. He asked me if I wanted something to drink and I asked....what do you have? He listed some choices and one of them was juice. I said sure....that sounds fine thanks. He comes back outside with a tiny juice glass of juice (about 4 oz or so ) and hands it to me which I downed in one shot.

"Say....I'm really thirsty....could I have a bigger glass?" He said...."I can bring you some water in a big glass would that be alright?" He did this while standing right next to a hose with running water pouring on the ground and I just looked down at the hose and looked back up at him?"

He said..."Oh....I see...you've got plenty of water. I guess your set then?"

Thinking to myself...."what'cha got in that juice anyway.....24k gold?" LOL (he wasn't poor or in a financially challenging situation)

I never bothered to say anything since I could see that wasn't going anywhere fast! lol Just a funny moment that seemed to fit with everything else that happened within just one day. Like I said....he wasn't doing any of this intentionally....he just wasn't aware enough at all to see how ridiculous this was even within his offer to be generous.

I see myself in the same situation....I would have brought the bottle based on what I saw if it had been me accessing or offering what I thought a person in the same situation would require or need. In the fact that he offered....this was all he was willing to part with not....what the person might actually need? As I saw it and the way it seemed to me. I was fine with the water and had been drinking it all day. Juice just sounded better and I was getting hungry anyway since I hadn't eaten anything but I wasn't even thinking about that and didn't really need it? I was fine either way but it just struck me as funny and not making a lot of sense?

Again...this did not seem like the more logical, obvious thing to do...that was the point I'm making? Who really knows what he was thinking about and why he does the things he does? I don't know and I don't care....all I know is how it made me feel ( angry and deceived ) and none of that made any sense to me?

The lying parts are obvious too....as well as him believing he doesn't lie. That's all I really know for sure and that appears pretty obvious that he is in denial to me?

Too funny and

Submitted by Zapp10 on Mon, 04/25/2016 - 17:51

TRUE! I am thinking that you are very right on the denial. I am going to give that additional thought. Can't wait to tell H "hey guess what? It appears WE have something in common! And you don't want to DENY it cause it means we are "alike" and isn't that a GOOD thing?" Is it an oxymoron to deny...denial? Your story gave me a laugh today.....it was funny! By the way, my H wrote me a birthday poem "roses are red and violets are blue, ADD is a pain in the ass...SQUIRREL!...Any who.....Happy Birthday to you! Signed your good friend & husband, John J Nuttier than a f'n oak tree in october. That was a pretty darn nice present:) and he does not use the f word so THAT was a surprise to me!

JUMBO shrmp. My Favorite Oxymoron For Dinner lol

Submitted by kellyj on Mon, 04/25/2016 - 21:56

I like that one Zapp....denying- denial. I never thought of it way but I like it...a lot! lol

I know not everyone is like this....but self deprecating humor is something that I respond well too almost any time. Just so you know....most of the time when I am mimicking and dramatizing my stories and sounding cynical and sarcastic....I'm usually placing myself in there some where and can easily do the same thing to myself any day of the week.

I'm an equal opportunity Satirist and no one is safe around me....including myself. I'm as fair game as anyone if it comes to pointing out the absurdity and ridiculousness of it all..... and making a joke about thinks that are not always funny...can be a way to relieve the pressure for me. It's my respond to getting past difficult moments and just finding something or some way to make myself smile.

But like I said....I do know that not everyone finds my humor appealing but it does seem to just come naturally...it is what I am thinking even if I don't always say so I figure if I say it....someone else might crack a smile as well. I can't help it! lol

Funny thing that use to happen before I realized this....there were times when I was just flaming angry and I was around a small group of people and I just started venting and spewing and letting go of it.....by my surprise....everyone would burst out laughing and I had no idea why? I wasn't trying to be funny but.....it just comes out that way. When I realized they weren't laughing at me but at what I was saying.....I figured it must not sound all that bad or they would think it was so funny. The down side comes...when you don't want to be funny....and it still comes out that way!! lol

I guess that's my way of apologizing to anyone I've offended....it's not my intention to be sure:)

Reading into what your H wrote you....I can see myself in there and that was a really sweet thing to say:)

ADD and upbringing

Submitted by Delphine on Sun, 04/24/2016 - 18:26

Zapp10, I wanted to respond to your question: "Does upbringing exacerbate ADD? Obviously I am referring to "they did the best they knew how" but HOLY! his upbringing was very sad, devoid of emotion, interaction and for all appearances lack of concern)"

I am sure it did with my mother, who I now suspect was ADHD, undiagnosed. Very sad background. Her bio mother gave her up to an orphanage when Mom was two y.o. because she was a working woman, very poor, and unable to care for her. Mom was in various foster homes and then at age five was taken in by a well-to-do single woman. Still as a "foster child" but there she stayed and lived as a spoiled "only" except without the security of being formally adopted. Her caregiver did her best, but wasn't able to give her true motherly affection. This was reflected in Mom's interactions with her five children. I can only remember her hugging me once as a child. 

However, I am sure that there are various contributing factors to ADHD. I know I've poured love and much energy into my own ADHD son. Genetics seem to play a large part. Ultimately, it is the ADHD person's responsibility how they deal with their issues. We none of us get perfect parents. 

Belated Happy Birthday, Zapp10! 22 is a Master Number, in numerology. 
http://www.tokenrock.com/numerology/master_numbers/
"Master Numerology 22 Overview
Numerolgy Master Number 22
In Numerology 22 is the most powerful of all numbers. It is often called the Master Builder. The 22 can turn the most ambitious of dreams into reality. It is potentially the most successful of all numbers.

It has many of the inspirational insights of the 11, combined with the practicality and methodical nature of the 4. It is unlimited, yet disciplined. It sees the archetype, and brings it down to earth in some material form. It has big ideas, great plans, idealism, leadership, and enormous self-confidence.

If not practical, the 22s waste their potential. Like the 11, the 22 can easily shrink from its own ambition, causing difficult interior pressures. Both the 11 and the 22 experience the pressure-cooker effect very strongly, particularly at an early age. It must work toward the realization of goals that are larger than personal ambition. The 22 serves the world in a practical way."


Hi ladies:)...This is how it works in my life......

Submitted by c ur self on Wed, 04/27/2016 - 22:51

( I find the statement" the 2 shall become 1" very interesting and telling. Is this a multiple choice ? Which of the 2 are the 1 going to be? His way? her way? Mutual agreement? Mutual respect and compromise? and yes, love. While definitions are universal, individuality is not....and how people perceive things......holy cow? THAT is NOT what I said! How did you GET THAT from what I said?)

God said it, and it's recorded in Genesis, and repeated in the new testament in Matthew, Mark and Ephesians...But, what God said was "the two shall become one flesh"....Not on soul, Not one mind...We do not lose our individuality....We just live naked and unashamed...Our sex lives are just as holy as our prayer lives....(One flesh)....

Now the thing we all need to understand is the Scripture is written to believers..So, if I pull one truth out and use it (in this case two being one) to describe or answer questions for my marriage (or any marriage) where the two involved are not being molded by the gospel....Then the answers will always be lost to us....If the throne room of my heart is occupied by me instead of Jesus, Dysfunction will always surface....

For every place the 5th chapter of Ephesians instructs believing wives to honor their own husbands the same why they honor Christ....It also instructs the believing husbands to love their wives as they love themselves...If your husbands or like me...They love there own flesh! And, if that's not enough, husbands are to love their wives in the same manner Jesus loves the church...He willingly was crucified for the church...Am I giving my life for her? Am I loving my wife in that manner? Am I living with her in an understanding manner? Those questions are for me, because the spirit is speaking them to me! Just as he does to every believing husband...(and wife)....The Holy Spirit and the word who are the same, will always be in agreement....

So my point here is if both spouses aren't born of the spirit and taking the words of Jesus as our daily bread for life and living, then we can't pull out this one truth and apply it, without applying all the gospel...It all fits perfectly....

I my tell you "sure I'm a believer", but, if the fruit of my life doesn't produce good works....God above all things, and my wife my first priority in this life...Then I've wondered from the path...

Blessings Ladies...

So right:)

Submitted by Zapp10 on Thu, 04/28/2016 - 08:10

My belief too, c. I think I was saying about the "2 in 1" in frustration to vent when I knew all along. My H's faith is at the top of his list, as it is mine....which is why I have been so conflicted with myself in my own behavior and understanding. Ah....the knowing versus doing.....kind of what I am expecting from H isn't it? Sometimes I think I am pulling the childish " you go first" crap....shame on me. We continue to navigate this "addition" to our path and hopefully someday we will just "stumble" instead of "falling in a ditch" so often.

Thanks c, you stated it like it is.

We are human and all fall prey to saving ourselves at times...

Submitted by c ur self on Thu, 04/28/2016 - 11:01

Zapp 10 I doubt there are any here who can't identify w/ you...I know I can, all to well....One thing that I read in the bible a while back that has been a wonderful reminder for me is the words of King David in Psalms 62...specifically verse 5...My soul, wait thou only upon God; for my expectation is from him....To long in my own neediness and weakness, I placed expectations on my spouse that I would justify based on my view of life...All I got from it was this frustration you speak about, along w/ anger & bitterness...Just because of my own misguided affections.....I've read on this forum many times "a person can't give you what they don't possess."

I must accept the reality of my spouse, just as she must accept my own, or the battle will never cease to rage....Abundant life comes from Only one source:)

Wise Man C

Submitted by kellyj on Thu, 04/28/2016 - 09:05

I mentioned "misinterpretation of the word" earlier. What you said makes perfect sense. Any time your following the "word" as explained to you....and it's not working or something is wrong.....what's wrong with that picture?.....the "word" or the person who told you the wrong interpretation?

:) Trick question J

Submitted by c ur self on Thu, 04/28/2016 - 11:06

The path is always Illuminated ( the Holy Spirit will lead you into all truth) I may not have the faith to follow it, but, the provision is there:)

Ah...Caught Me! LOL

Submitted by kellyj on Thu, 04/28/2016 - 11:35

touche'

Faith is not about believing others....it's about believing in yourself:)

For me it's about this universal truth.....Jeremiah 29:11

Submitted by c ur self on Thu, 04/28/2016 - 11:53

Your comment reminded me of Bill Wilson (Metro World Child)...His Mother left him on a street corner when he was 12 and told him she would be right back...Three days later a man picked him up and feed him...No one wanted him; so he prayed and told God...No one wants me, if you want me here I am? God did:)...

I've Often Wondered C ?

Submitted by kellyj on Thu, 04/28/2016 - 13:58

Which comes first....the chicken or the egg? This does seem to be the universal paradox?

The lack of empathy....

Submitted by overwhelmedwife on Fri, 04/22/2016 - 00:31

The lack of empathy and lack of thinking how you might be feeling might be the self-centeredness of ADHD or another mental illness. He doesn't "understand" why you're devastated because he's never spent a moment putting himself in your shoes.

He's like the partner who's quickly moved-on to greener pastures and then is shocked to learn that his Ex is grieving. He's never given it a moment's thought. His mind has been pre-occupied with whatever he deems important, and sadly, that's not wife and kids.

Not surprised that he's given little/no thought to how you've been processing his distancing himself from you and the family, while living with his parents under the guise of his job of taking care of them. Anyone who was normal-thinking would know that when an adult is helping invalid parents, they're still in constant contact with their spouse and children. He's too self-centered to have given the realities much thought. He's been pretending that his cover of "taking care of parents" was an acceptable excuse for little/no contact, as if they're on Mars and you're on Earth so naturally there would be minimal contact.

I am sorry that you're being continually smacked in the face with proof of how disconnected he is to you and your children. No wonder this one of many times, left you in tears.

To Rosebud

Submitted by jennalemone on Fri, 04/22/2016 - 10:14

Rosered. I feel as though I know you. You are now my hero. I know you are a reluctant hero, but that is how heroes sometimes find themselves overcoming challenges and hardship and disappointment.

RoseRed, you have to make a choice

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Fri, 04/22/2016 - 12:20

RoseRed,

Sitting over here in Ohio, reading what you have posted, understanding the very depths of the hurt you are feeling. . . . . because I understand them so well. . . . . what I see with some clarity from reading that post. . . . . you will have to find a pathway to make a real, final decision that is stuck between between a rock and a hard place:

1. Wait for your spouse to do that paperwork

2. Do the next step and go on to Plan B to accomplish the goal without his participation.

Is the goal to get the paperwork complete?

Is the goal to get him do the paperwork?

I am at a place of having to make some of those exact choices for myself. I get very tripped up by the fear, "What if I make the wrong choice?"

I am trying to encourage myself by "Yes, it is tough, but what if the choice I make is the right choice?"

My track record has proved my choices have not worked thus far to get the result I want.

Liz

Thanks for all the message

Submitted by PoisonIvy on Fri, 04/22/2016 - 13:04

Thanks for all the messages and the understanding.

The problem is this: there is a possibility that if H doesn't participate at all in the divorce (e.g., by signing a marital agreement, by submitting a financial disclosure, by showing up at hearings that must be held because he isn't signing and submitting), at the trial (which will have to be held because of H not participating), the judge might refuse to grant the divorce because of H's lack of participation. That's a pretty frightening possibility. Thus, I think I need to make much effort to encourage H's participation. The only reason I called him Tuesday morning was because he had sent me an email in which he said that he did not have the blank financial disclosure form that I had sent him but that he didn't understand why he had to fill it out, because he "doesn't have anything." Sigh. He has income. I guess he was planning to not write that down. So then I made another copy of the form and send it to him that day. And then he emailed me later to say he found the first copy.

Essentially, the legal system is requiring me to make these very painful contacts.

Scary that he's trying to

Submitted by overwhelmedwife on Fri, 04/22/2016 - 13:41

Scary that he's trying to claim "no income" because you know what that can mean... The judge could order you to pay him spousal support if he's claiming "no income."

This may be a tough aspect of your divorce. His parents aren't going to provide proof that he's being paid, yet you know that he is getting paid.

What evidence (past emails? bank deposits) do you have that would demonstrate that he is getting paid?

I have bank records.

Submitted by PoisonIvy on Fri, 04/22/2016 - 13:47

I have bank records.

ok, you have bank records.

Submitted by overwhelmedwife on Fri, 04/22/2016 - 14:42

ok, you have bank records.

Is it possible that he's dragging his feet because he knows that the court is going to expect accurate tax filings and income info? If so, then he knows he'll have to file and pay taxes on his earnings, which he doesn't want to do?

It's true that he'd like to

Submitted by PoisonIvy on Fri, 04/22/2016 - 14:46

It's true that he'd like to not pay taxes. But I've insisted on it. So the bank records and tax returns will show that he has income.

My encouragement

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Fri, 04/22/2016 - 14:29

RoseRed,

My encouragement - - comes from my current experiences with my daughter and my ex-son-in-law's disillusionment, and her continued efforts to get everything complete in their divorce.

She has some very hostile feelings towards her ex-husband. They had dated for 7 years, got married, and then it crashed and burned. She had some high expectations - and he did too - and to me it feels sorta familiar - - so I really have to be careful not to project my own struggles onto her situation. That is HARD, very HARD, since the situations seem so similar.

He asked HER to leave.. . . .(the house that was in her name because he had no credit.)

He refused to continue with counseling for 2 reasons - 1. SHE had all the problems. and 2. It was too expensive and he couldn't afford it.

She went online and got a disillusionment form.

She filled it out, and printed it out.

She filed it.

They exchanged funds.

She signed the quit claim deed. They showed up in court, and the judge granted it - with the only added stipulation that my ex-son-in-law had to get a mortgage in his own name, with-in one year.

They had a loan for replacement windows, in my daughter's name, which he assumed responsibility for along with the mortgage payments. He did not/could not/would not get the paper work done. Each month, the window company called my daughter to tell her the payment is late for the windows, each month she called her ex to 'remind' him and he told her how his funds are low- - -and the dog ate the invoice- - - - and each month he ends up paying a $35 late fee. She suggested to him to make auto payments - - - -and he never did. If he doesn't pay, it effects HER credit, so she did that craziness for months on end. Finally, he came here to meet with her so SHE could get it set up, so at least she doesn't have to play this game every single month.

She is stuck - - there is no moving ahead financially because the mortgage is in her name. . . .and he can't file the quit claim deed for the property because she can't get her name off the deed because her name is on the mortgage. . . . . .a catch 22 of some sort.

Anyway, the moral of all that - she had to decide if she wanted to get 'er done, or wanted to get him to do it.

She recently call the courthouse, as one year is in May - - -and all that can happen is if SHE decides to spend $175.00 to file contempt of court charges against him. Ugh.

Liz

Honestly, his bewilderment

Submitted by dvance on Fri, 04/22/2016 - 22:29

Honestly, his bewilderment does not surprise me at all. Like you, I have spent the better part of my married life thinking about, worrying about, making life easier for, taking care of, being careful of, planning for my husband. And you know what? All of those things were a waste of my mental energy. He does not think about me that much, if at all. What he does think about is what will make him look good in any given situation, how to NOT be the bad guy or the responsible one at any given moment, and how to make his life easier overall. In the past year or so, I have disengaged from him more and more and boy is it liberating. If I start obsessing over something about him, I have to consciously remind myself to STOP--he DOES. NOT. CARE. He likely does not notice. I have wasted so much time worrying about him--it's ridiculous.

You have to mourn your marriage, I totally understand, but he likely will not. He will likely go about his merry way and continue to wonder why you are so worked up. As self absorbed as ADHD folks tend to be, his life is not going to change all that much when you do divorce, so why the big deal (in his mind). If you have a therapist or can get one, that would be super helpful. Mine is so good for reminding me to take care of myself because hubby doesn't/won't/can't.

hugs-it sucks I know, but ultimately the freedom is terrific--train yourself to stop thinking about him. I have been married for 20 years, so I am clear that it is not an easy thing to do, but try.

Rose,

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Sat, 04/23/2016 - 18:38

Rose,

Your thread title, referring to your specific situation, sums it up. I sure hope he gets the papers signed, doesn't lose or "lose" them and gets them back to you. If he's been trying to avoid paying income tax on his earnings for awhile, that's a sure indicator to me that he thinks he's an exception and doesnt have to do what other people do. I just hope your being at his beck on being able to move forward is short. He's treating you like he thinks he's entitled to treat the Federal government!

On that painful situation of his bewilderment at hearing that you're suffering, this is so tough. Any spouse would be in pain at having been abandoned and ghosted by her partner the way yours has you. So dont take any "you shouldnt be upset because I dont understand why you're upset" bs attitude from him, that'd be gaslighting you for you being in pain.

Once I was in a relation with someone who would do the "I'm bewildered" thing. He used that "I'm just an innocent little kid" bewilderment to avoid taking the consequences for what he had done. His face would change and even his body movements, he actually looked like a (big) uncomprehending 1 /2 year old when he'd "I'm bewildered". Dvance laid the whole thing out

He does not think about me that much, if at all. What he does think about is what will make him look good in any given situation, how to NOT be the bad guy or the responsible one at any given moment, and how to make his life easier overall. ....I have to consciously remind myself to STOP--he DOES. NOT. CARE. He likely does not notice. I have wasted so much time worrying about him--it's ridiculous.

hugs-it sucks I know, but ultimately the freedom is terrific--train yourself to stop thinking about him. I have been married for 20 years, so I am clear that it is not an easy thing to do, but try.

The man I was involved who would go into bewildered to avoid responsibility didnt have ADHD . He tracked exactly on what Dvance said in her post, never woke up to responsibility, always did what he decided was the easier for him way, didnt participate in the breakup except to stick his head in the sand, hope I would not go through with it, and go belly up, except to do wounded child. I had been way over invested in his wellbeing but he got along just fine after the breakup, he moved right on with his I'm bewildered & unable to step up to the plate to the next soft target woman, and then on to the next one. It was a learning curve relation for me....I dont think these people who use this I'm a bewildered kid are bewildered. I think it's a mechanism for hiding from themselves and trying to force other people to make life into a special deal for them...because they believe that they're exceptional, so exceptional that they don't have to pay income taxes, reciprocate, or lift a finger if they want something. I used to worry that that man I was involved with would end up on the street, because he was too special to work, too. But do you know, he didnt end up on the street. The last I heard he had convinced yet another woman, about number 3 or 4 after me, to remodel her house especially for him.

I think your thread title and D pegged that bewildered mentality exactly.

The "Mr. Magoo" syndrome

Submitted by lulu18 on Sat, 04/23/2016 - 23:21

I have often referred to my husband as "Mr.Magoo"- the cartoon character from many years ago who had very bad eyesight but refused to wear his glasses. Everywhere he went he stepped on boards that hit OTHER PEOPLE in the face and caused similar mayhem. He never got injured, only those unfortunate enough to be around him. He remained clueless. This clueless way of bumbling through life and reacting with bewilderment when confronted with consequences seems to be a common thread in many of the marriages I read about here. I wonder, Rosered, if that "Mr. Magoo" quality has become part of your husband''s personality by now. It is identical to how my husband processes everything I say. Even after I told him he needed to leave three months ago, he has yet to even take a tiny glance at this extreme level of denial. It is infuriating and I still get hooked into trying to explain to him how he causes damage with his behavior. I have not filed for divorce yet, as I am still trying to figure out the best way to handle visitation with our son. He is incapable of dealing with our son's ADHD outbursts and his multiple medical problems, yet I can't get supervised visitation because he "hasn't caused harm yet" according to my attorney. Yes, I have an attorney but I am so conflicted about what to do and so beaten down from years of being a single parent to a child with multiple special needs that I am afraid to make a move. Any move. So for now I let my husband "hang out" at my house with our son whenever my son wants to see his Dad. It is not ideal but for now it is the best way of transitioning my son gently into the fact that Dad doesn't live here anymore. The legal system, at least where I live, is making my decision harder. I fear for my child, yet no harm has "yet" been done.Of course not, because I have been in control of everything to make sure it didn't. I must investigate this issue more thoroughly, but for now I am choosing to go slowly, breathe deeply and try very very hard to let go of the anger that has has been the only companion I have had for many, many years. I have no friends anymore-that part of my life was lost as a mom working full time and caring full time for my son with all his many needs. I love my sweet boy- he is highly gifted, very ADHD and sad to say, very medically compromised. It's a very lonely life but at least it is peaceful now at night, I can sit in my living room and there is no mess from my husband dropping everything and anything in his path. I felt like I was a prisoner in my bedroom for years- it was my only refuge , since we hadn''t shared a bedroom in 8 years, it was my space. The house is quiet. I give thanks for that.

Blessings of Solitude

Submitted by Delphine on Sun, 04/24/2016 - 18:36

"It's a very lonely life but at least it is peaceful now at night, I can sit in my living room and there is no mess from my husband dropping everything and anything in his path. I felt like I was a prisoner in my bedroom for years- it was my only refuge , since we hadn''t shared a bedroom in 8 years, it was my space. The house is quiet. I give thanks for that."

That is where I am at, also, lulu18. I am learning to be content with my own company. Solitude can be very creative. We have time and space to think, to pursue our interests, to dream. We can literally dream a new and fulfilling way of life into being. Let us focus on the opportunities of this time, rather than the loneliness. Isn't it even lonelier living with someone who isn't truly there for us? I would say so.

Here's to being our own best friend...

Delphine

bedroom "safe space"

Submitted by dedelight4 on Sun, 04/24/2016 - 18:56

I too was Secluded to my bedroom until I moved out a month ago. My husband and I have'nt had sex in over 10 years, even though we slept in the same bed. Last Christmas when he told me he was "still in love" with his old girlfriend, I made him sleep in another room. He has now told me that he lied about that, so I cant believe anything he says now. Anyway........

The bedroom became my room of solitude, where I could close the door and feel somewhat protected and " away" from the craziness. It helped some, but I still had to move out to clear my thinking and begin to heal my inner self. Ive got such a long ways to go. At times I get overwhelmed with all the feelings washing over me, as well dealing with the sadness.

Family Life

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Sun, 04/24/2016 - 19:12

dedelight4 ,

I think every one needs a place all of their own, with a door for privacy. I also believe that common spaces should be available for all members of a family. Certainly there are exceptions, I am only talking about the general guidelines of the family home.

The table is available for everyone to use for projects. It should not be monopolized by other's stuff. The living room is where we can sit and watch TV. If someone wants peace and quite, they should remove themselves, not expect everyone else to turn off the TV and be quiet. Or if someone falls asleep and snores loudly, they should respect other's request that they go upstairs and nap/sleep on their bed. If you are in a grumpy mood, you should not spread your grumpyness all over everyone in the house. Use your words, use your words, use your words. If you are in a snit, you can say so, and also say you need some time to yourself, so you can go to your own space and close the door. Or if you need to talk something out, you can also say that. Just as we need to respect other's request to be left alone, other's need to respect our space to enjoy other's company.

In a boundary-less situation, it is a difficult thing to feel safe and respected.

I yearn for a place full of good boundaries and mutual respect.

Liz

Boundary issues still rock my world

Submitted by lulu18 on Sun, 04/24/2016 - 23:20

Thank you Liz,for the wonderfully clear way you described what healthy boundaries look like in action. It is so clear to me what healthy boundaries feel like, but only because they have been absent for so long. I never stopped to spell it out so clearly as you did, and it made me smile to read your description. I said to myself "Yes, that's what I've been missing.Whew, thank goodness someone put my thoughts into words". I have struggled for so long to have good, clear boundaries with my son, only to have them ripped apart when he witnessed his Dad's behavior that clearly trampled everyone's boundaries. Yes, it is lonely, but it is a better feeling of loneliness by choice. So much of the loneliness of my life has to do with having no one to talk to when it comes to the many decisions I must make about my son's health care, school accommodations, behavior strategies. Most people do not have a clue what it's like to parent a child with special needs. The food allergies are an ever present challenge, but I was so relieved to finally be done with elementary school and all the birthday celebrations in school, food related crafts, etc, that were a mine field for my son. Much to my shock and dismay, within one month of entering middle school , health problems that he had for a long time that were rather minor suddenly exploded and became huge. After months of specialists, blood tests, MRI's he was finally diagnosed with a genetic connective tissue disease. His joints and muscles hurt him on a daily basis, he has migraine headaches and is dealing with crushing fatigue. He is only 12 years old and some days he comes home and falls asleep. He would sleep through the night if I let him, but I can't, as he will get a migraine if he over sleeps. His life is filled with OT and PT visits. Some days he is too tired to do his homework or his hands hurt so badly I type all his work while he dictates it to me. My heart breaks for him. There is no medicine for this, no cure- he was born with faulty collagen. It is almost too much to bear, but if he can find the strength to still have a smile on his face and not dwell on this every day, then surely I can too. The divorce rate for parents with special needs kids is much higher than the national average. I understand this. But I do not understand How my husband can stay disconnected in the midst of all this. To his credit, if I call and say it's an emergency, he comes running. For some reason, he is great in an emergency. Maybe the adrenaline rush helps him focus. However, the daily drudgery of comforting, helping, coping with pain, he is simply incapable of doing. He came over a few weeks ago when I had to pick up our son from school because he had a blinding headache. He came over quickly, but when faced with our child crying in pain and needing help, he decided he absolutely had to find a basin to soak his (my husband's) sore feet in, and could I please get one for him? Out of sheer habit I started to move, then stopped, looked at him in disbelief and said " get it yourself". Finally he came back a half hour later, and said he realized he was being selfish. This is so sad. Right now my prayers are for adults to come into my life who can help me. Sadly, my husband does not qualify. An old saying goes- when you pray, move your feet. I am praying and moving; looking for a support group, therapist ( I am one, by the way, and I can't find a good one for me!), anyone who can help.

vitamin C may help

Submitted by Delphine on Mon, 04/25/2016 - 14:59

lulu18, very sorry to hear of your son's difficulties. You could look into high dose vitamin C therapy. Ascorbic acid, which is cheap and readily available, is required for collagen synthesis. This is a good site for info, and they have a forum:
http://vitamincfoundation.org/alerts.php
Page from the site on vitamin C and collagen: 
http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/collagen.html

Dr. Suzanne Humphries has lectured and written on the benefits of vitamin C, and uses it in her practice.
You might contact her:
http://drsuzanne.net/dr-suzanne-humphries-oral-intravenous-vitamin-c/
youtube lecture she gave on vitamin C:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0LLX0sgwAU

Best wishes for your son's healing!

Delphine


Thanks for your kind thoughts

Submitted by lulu18 on Tue, 04/26/2016 - 23:12

It has felt strange and almost surreal to start posting here and sharing just how rough things are in my life. It's almost as if my husband Moving out has helped me find a voice. It doesn't feel like my voice because I don't remember what that sounds like any more. I guess it is a new voice. Thank you Delphine, for sharing the information on vitamin C and Dr. Humphries. I know about vitamin c to reduce the constant bruising he experiences, but the rest is new to me. I will check it out. The caring and kindness I see shared on this forum has helped restore my faith that there really are good people out there. I did something very uncharacteristic at work last week as well with my new voice. I stood up for myself. I am very skilled in being a champion for others, but I have a very poor track record when it comes to advocating for myself. However, this time I refused to let myself be treated badly, spoke up in a professional manner and would not back down. It was hard but it worked. The message was heard loud and clear-" You do not have my permission to treat me this way". I didn't think I had it in me, but I did. Hooray for me.

Yes, well done lulu18! You

Submitted by Delphine on Wed, 04/27/2016 - 02:51

Yes, well done lulu18! You proved to them and yourself that you do indeed have it in you. Keep it up!

I feel like I am finding my voice also, since son moved out last month. I think I was too anxious and preoccupied in that situation, not just because of his ADHD, but in general I think it is difficult for parents and grown children to live together. I started writing little poems that are just flowing out of me and am getting a good response when I share them at Facebook.

Sure hope the health info will be useful. I am sure Dr. Humphries would be a great resource. As she said in her youtube talk, she has an excellent track record with her patients.

And yes, I agree, this is a great forum with wonderful, caring people!

Help! I Need to be Rescued vs All For One.....

Submitted by kellyj on Wed, 04/27/2016 - 12:42

and every (man woman and child) for themselves!....instead of one for "all".

Lulu....I remember you made a comment to me way back when I first came to this forum and made a comment about therapy and how I was seeing it and how it seemed to work for me. Keep repeating it over and over....until finally you see it too? I appreciated the comment and feedback and remembered you were saying you were a health professional as well. This had me thinking a lot (and reflecting myself ) on some of the things that you said here and it sparked something that I can see in your description here from my own past in my previous marriage to a woman who seemed to have some of the same qualities as your H thinking...how does this all work into having ADHD and what's the reasons for this? Why did I end up with someone who appeared to always need to be rescued since...I'm not what you would call a rescuer but I became one by default since that was what was required of me despite having ADHD. To the contrary....my standard MO is to be more like your H in some ways....but completely the opposite in others? Why is that?

The things that triggered these thoughts in me is in what you said....

For some reason, he is great in an emergency. I'm the same way but it has less to do with the adrenalin rush you were suspecting. That has more to do with my ability to tune things out at the exclusion of everything else....and focus entirely on the task at hand. Cool under fire...even in the midst of the Apocalypse! lol

I remember reading somewhere....that the Marines? Look for men with ADHD as candidates to be long range snipers since that requires a completely steady hand...the ability to focus intently on what they are doing in the midst of complete chaos....bombs exploding, bullets whizzing by your head and everything in a state of total anarchy. I understand this since I would make a good candidate for that if that was my calling.

But that doesn't explain the second part of what you said in your story.....

He came over quickly, but when faced with our child crying in pain and needing help, he decided he absolutely had to find a basin to soak his (my husband's) sore feet in, and could I please get one for him? Out of sheer habit I started to move, then stopped, looked at him in disbelief and said " get it yourself". Finally he came back a half hour later, and said he realized he was being selfish.

When I read that.....the thing that I mentioned way back in my comment about therapy....just happened again. I got a "hit" and that "hit" told me I needed to look at something? This all came rushing back and I think I can offer you some insight. I've found that insight...is the thing that helps me explain so many things that use to appear as a complete mystery to me. At this point in time....those mysteries always seem to have a real life plausible explanation?

Tying this all together along with my own reflections and the answers for me..... which might have a lot to do with the same things that are happening with you? Let me explain....

My secret agenda as a kid...was to run away from home. This was when I was still in grade school and I dreamed of it for as long as I could remember when I was faced with a situation that seemed remarkably similar to yours in some respects. The quick (cute) brief story of what I remembered doing as a response to the "Every Man Woman and Child for Themselves" syndrome that I grew up in....

This is one of those stories I have never told anyone before because it was buried in so many other things that I never really thought about it again until just this moment.

One time when I was about 10 years old....I had decided to run away from home...but even then...the logistics of this seemed to keep getting in my way! lol One day...I decided (by myself ) to test the waters so to speak....so I grabbed some camping gear and some food and set out to some woods near my house in thinking this would be a good place to start! lol

After some failed attempts at getting a fire started and cooking some hot dogs I brought along with me.....I quickly came to the realization...that this was not going to work and I ended up going back home and never mentioning this to anyone. End of story:)

But as I remembered this...it occurred to me...that my secret agenda (or dream of running away) had never really disappeared even after the fact that I was not going anywhere but right back to where I started.

Without going into any long explanation of how this worked for me....my response was...and always has been in that very situation....thinking "I better get ready and learn how to do things on my own...or I'll never get out of here! lol Truly! I took it upon myself to learn as much as I could...in how to do things for myself and learn what ever I needed to learn ....to be ready as soon as possible to do things for myself and on my own and to be totally self reliant and self proficient as much as possible....or else.....I'm never getting out of here! lol

Just look at all the skills sets and different things that can do now in the comment I made to NowOrNever in referring to taking up space and how I make a living? My secret agenda required a secret mission...and that mission or journey in getting to my goal was to acquire as many skills as possible just in case I was going to need them along the way. To start with....learning to make a fire and cooking hot dogs seemed to be a good place to start! lol As I recall distinctly without even realizing this at the time.....hanging out with my mother in the kitchen and learning how to cook. And to this day....I have always been a pretty good cook and done that for myself all my life?

And as this seems go work.....I have always ended up with women who didn't like to cook????? (for you here to pay note too)

This I now fully believe....was the Warrior Archetype in me going all the way back to when I was just 10 years old. Do what you need to do...to get the job done and don't stop and think about anything else and let that get in your way. Part of that thinking I believe...applies directly to having ADHD and the thing I mentioned about the Marines looking for men with ADHD to be snipers because this is somewhat inherent in the ability to do this? I also believe this set the stage for the rest of my life based on my circumstances...and then....how I responded to it. I clearly see this in me since then....and all along the way.

Hos this translates? Going back to this moment in your story......and when I got that hit I was talking about....He came over quickly, but when faced with our child crying in pain and needing help, he decided he absolutely had to find a basin to soak his (my husband's) sore feet in, and could I please get one for him?

Thinking about my ex wife....and now seeing it again in this sentence.....I think their secret agenda (unlike mine) was...."Help me....I need to be rescued!"

The reason I say this is also from what I learned about her when we first started going to therapy together. Rescuers....seem to gravitate to the thing that they secretly desire most.....to be rescued. But like your H....my ex-wife's response to this was always the same.......no matter what happened, and even when there wasn't a crisis....there always seems to be a problem or some health concern (or crisis emerge) that seemed somewhat invisible to me?

My T was the one who explained this to me simply. Somewhere , somehow in her childhood...she figured out that this worked for her and she found out how to get her needs met and taken care of by doing the very same thing. For the sake of argument and not filling in all the reasons he said this...he was absolutely right! "I need to be rescued .....so therefore, RESCUE ME." She was very good at responding to other people who seemed in crisis....but not very good at following through in the actual "rescuing part" since that would be in conflict with being rescued herself? And if there wasn't any reason to rescue her....she made one up instead. Not by intention or with conscious knowledge (in denial of this)...but it became her secret agenda none the less.

"These recurring incidents are always emergencies and everyone must drop everything and come running to "save" him. I was shocked when I saw that He could not even be present for his son when he was in pain." Guess what? ( Turkey's Butt )

And by default.....I became the rescuer since.....I had a lot of rescuing type skills I had learned along the way in seemingly .....rescuing myself? Despite having ADHD?

And as I'm seeing it here with you possibly....as a health care professional.....rescuing is not necessarily the prime motivation. Healing would be my take on that but only you know that one for yourself?

One of the down sides of the Warrior Archetype is....that your needs are not as important as the job at hand and come second or not at all in any given circumstances. The shadow of that Archetype turns to using your skills for your own self serving needs with no regard for anyone else which goes right back to what I was wanting to run away from in my childhood......every man woman and child.....for themselves! Man over board!! lol

This is the corrupted version of any Archetypal behavior which is different from what it sounds like is your husbands default. His default is to be rescued even in the moment of coming to rescue someone else which seemed to be apparent by the story you just told here? Which might be the shadow of another Archetype which I'm thinking is the Knight. The Knight in Shining armor....that needs to be rescued himself?

For you here all things considered....I hope you find your Warrior and do what you have to do for yourself and your son. Instead of running away.....find the way you need to do this and gain some new skills yourself along the way! It sounds as if you already have a lot of those skills already. Good luck and God Speed on your mission lol And to you in finding your way:)

Help! I need rescuing....This is fascinating and enlightening...

Submitted by Zapp10 on Wed, 04/27/2016 - 15:06

I may not have this particular " issue" with my H but it brings to mind something I have long tried to figure out with another issue and if it is "accentuated" by having ADD? Perhaps you or someone here could see if it is possible or has nothing to do with it. It could just be a "mindset" learned in childhood and carries through into adulthood and does not lend well to marriage.

My H had basically not a bad but not good childhood. He was the 2nd of 7. Mom stayed home Dad worked then did what he wanted in "free" time. Dad was not interested in time with kids and mom had her hands full with 7. H loved the outdoors. He had to be inside well before bedtime and stay inside to make it easy on mom to keep track of/ keep him in view so he wasn't off causing trouble. This is H's explanation, not mine. He grew to love sports(parents did not come to see him participate), loved hunting and fishing( again nothing. Mom would not allow fish to be brought home) Could not sleep out in a tent or spend the night with other kids his age. It was literally BE HOME and Mostly INSIDE.

I can remember him talking about this and quite often he would say..."I couldn't wait to get out and on my own where nobody could ever tell me no again" Now, years later knowing that he most likely had ADD as a child I can't imagine HOW he managed?

My question is I have often felt he would interact with me from a place of "you can't tell me what to do" He wasn't obnoxious about it it just came across as a normal to him. Not being able to "get" him to see that his take on my having an opinion was NOT trying to control him was EXTREMELY frustrating and still is occasionally. Especially if it is about him doing, buying or getting something. All he seems to "hear" is NO.

One thing my H has never done is have a temper tantrum. Knee jerk anger and done, yes. Cold, stone faced glare, yes. Go ahead and do what he wanted to anyway? yes.

Am I explaining this well enough? I am thinking this started from something else and along the way was aided by ADD? I just don't know. I do not want to put something on ADD that is not. I prefer the things not related to ADD as he is more receptive to them than the issues caused by ADD itself.( He just doesn't think it is that big a deal... sigh)

I personally think it is a separate deal....but something nags at me that I am missing something and if ADD plays into it now I would like to know.

A longstanding issue in my

Submitted by PoisonIvy on Wed, 04/27/2016 - 15:14

A longstanding issue in my marriage was my husband's failure to look for work when he was unemployed. The first time he was unemployed, he probably didn't apply for a job for five years. The second time, he never did. In one of our conversations about this issue, which greatly frustrated me, he said that whenever I said something to him about applying for jobs (which didn't happen very often, because of course I didn't want to be perceived as a nag), his brain would tell him to do the opposite. That is, "wife wants me to look for work, therefore I refuse to look for work."

Zapp ..The Power of Suggestion

Submitted by kellyj on Wed, 04/27/2016 - 16:45

I think no matter what....ADHD is there in some way. How each person responds to it...is different even under the same circumstances. I think the feeling of being held back or restrained is a real part of ADHD. Part of what you said about how your H saw this....was the same for me too. What I did about it....and what he did about it.....seem to be different. That's what I've found to be true especially after coming here to this forum and going..."that doesn't sound like me?" But once I thought about this some more....I realized it what was behind the behavior....was still the same thing.

The single most commonly occurring thing that I got in trouble for, grounded and punished for doing? Being late...and not coming home on time! lol 9 times out of 10....this is what I got in trouble for.

He had to be inside well before bedtime and stay inside to make it easy on mom to keep track of/ keep him in view so he wasn't off causing trouble.

Replace...."causing trouble" with...."worried that I might kill myself (not suicide...just doing what I do) Subtlety different....but still the same:)

The Power of suggestion.....

When I was like 4 years old. I was riding my tri-cycle around the upstairs of our house. (this one I remember well:) My mother announces to me were going down stairs (for something that I don't remember...probably for her do the laundry?) She walks into the other room....I proceed to ride my tri-cycle straight down the stairs bouncing all the way to the bottom. My mom comes running since she hears me crying since this scared me so much. She freaking out....and I'm looking around and accessing the damage? After a moment....I realize I'm fine? Crisis over....back to riding my tri-cycle. lol

Just another day in Hell for my mom....all things considered. lol My mother never let me forget that one which is probably why I remember it.

side note.....I rode that sucker all the way down and never even tipped over until I hit bottom. Her lack of confidence in me.....only proved that I could do it and gained me even more! Next time.....I'll make it all the way and not tip over at all!! That's the ticket! lol

Another one....my mother told me that taking me to the store was a real chore for her when I was really little. She said she needed to walk down the middle of the isle and keep a wide margin of room between me and anything I get reach because as soon as I could....I would pull everything off the shelves or cause a chain reaction of items to cascade onto the floor. Apparently....this happened quite often as I was told. lol

I gotta try to understand this...

Submitted by Zapp10 on Wed, 04/27/2016 - 20:50

I agree totally about manifesting differently.There have been ones who describe their H's response to things and I don't see THAT in my H BUT a completely different way that causes issues.

As far as his moms reasoning.....I'm not so sure.....She had a very sad way of viewing life. She was and still is afraid of it. She believes that if someone is nice to anyone they are out to get something. And she believed that most kids are causing trouble out there including hers.She has no self esteem and she made sure her kids didn't either. All so sad. Since we now know his father had ADD I am far more understanding of her behavior sometimes...So many things that we observed in their marriage are being repeated in ours. I remember once, in anger/ frustration saying to my H " I will not go the way of your parents marriage." THAT wasn't received well but now years later ....look where we are at.

If I can't have a thought or idea without controversy and he wants me to just agree ALL the time then I don't need to be here.....he can pay someone to do what I do. Oh for crying out loud ...there I go...I am losing my "positive" mojo....my apologies.

My husbands high school quote under his senior picture was.....school bells are his alarm clock OMG! LOL!

Good For You Zapp!!

Submitted by kellyj on Thu, 04/28/2016 - 07:07

You caught yourself right here..."Oh for crying out loud ...there I go...I am losing my "positive" mojo....my apologies."

No apologies needed. You're doing it...and you just did it here! Awsonium!:)

And yes....I can sleep at the drop of a hat...or at least....I did up until I was in my late forties. This was before medication and diagnosis.

You mentioned one big difference between your H's mom and my mom. I absolutely believe at this time.....it was my mother who had ADD and that's where I got it. I have come to understand something about this as well. I made a number of long time close friendships growing up and a disproportionate number of those friends as I came to find out much later....have ADHD. It's seems...."birds of a feather...flock together." No joke. We seem to vibrate at the same frequency and this seems familiar and even comfortable to us. I really think there is something to this now?

My mother told me on a number of occasions (in a rather cryptic...undecipherable way at the time)...."I wish we could help you?"...or..."I wish we could have done more for you?" Meaning now as I have come to understand this....there was something she recognized but couldn't put her finger on.....but she could relate to it just the same.

She confided with me when I was a teenager and struggling with my own issues (ADHD ones)....that when she had me (in her early 30's)...she knew something was wrong but she also knew.....that my father would not pay or condone her going to see a psychiatrist? At the time....this only caused me to trust her less and made me feel a little uneasy since that was kind of the stigma back then. Loony bin!!! ahhhh!!!

But when this really hit me....was when my oldest sister in a moment of frustration herself (about me not communicating or getting back to her about things)...blurted out that I was just like our mom. OUCH!!! I immediately took that as a Masculinity assault and took that in an offensive way? But then realized....no....I'm nothing like my Mother as I saw it based on Masculinity? "What the Hell was she talking about anyway?"

Just another moment of frustration and thinking people are just out to lunch when I heard anything like this. Must be a personal problem? lol

Years later.....I finally asked my sister what she meant by that since I was starting to think about this and wondering about it myself? As my sister was referring (which she did not say at the time).....were the ADHD behaviors not anything to do with Masculinity as I originally took it and was offended by.

Well....that's different and horse of different color? This was one of those moments....when the wheels began to turn?

So if you look at your H....with his father as being the one with ADHD. And me....with my mother being the one with ADHD.....that's a quantum leap in differences in experience right there. But you have to remember....no one knew anything about ADHD and this was all a gigantic mystery to any of us including (me).....myself?

As I now see it.....my middle sister (older)....definitely has some ADHD and possibly.....my oldest sister too in some regards? Speculating now.....my oldest sister is a bonefide introvert and see's the world from that perspective. Are you kidding me? I've teased her saying "if they dropped you off on a deserted island and all you had was food, water and a lifetime supply of books to read....you'd be happy as a clam at high tide indefinitely!" lol And she doesn't disagree. lol

Myself and my middle sister ....definitely are way more extroverted to the point....she's way more extroverted than me and could stay at the party 24/7 ...indefinitely and would be fine with that. I'm some where in between and like a little of both ....50/50 or even now 25/75...75% more introverted now after being on medication and treatment. I'm far less likely to need to go out of the town and socialize than I did before and like to hang around the house more and be a home body. This fact seems interesting in itself?

Take away the urge for stimulation.....and I become a different person in that respect?

So comparing myself to your H....and if I even had a quote under my high school picture....it would have read " what was that? zoom!!"

I put the "H"....in hyperactive when I was growing up! lol A hyperactive, extrovert in need of stimulation! lol "LOOK OUT....Here he comes again!!!" The one thing no one ever accused me of.....was being boring. Not until I was much....much older! lol

Even when my ex-wife left me in a more serious moment for me....she said...."you can't just "BE"" That meant....be still....be relaxed....don't talk and be introverted like her." That was one of our conflicts.....we were opposites in that way to the extreme. "BE".....as I now see it meant....."you just can't.... NOT have ADHD" Sorry for the double negative....but that was really the truth right there.

H's "denial"

Submitted by Zapp10 on Thu, 04/28/2016 - 07:54

It is hard enough to understand the "workings" of ADD for the "nons".....am I really surprised that those WITH this find it "difficult?" My H loves adventure.....wish he could see it this way:)

I do honestly believe that because he can see that his own father(had) and brother(has) it he is comparing their behavior to himself. They, to me, represent the extreme of ADD. There is no use in even trying to have a conversation with either of them unless you can be happy talking about them ALL the time. They have no interest in a "relationship" except if you can do something for them. They are "know it all", opinionated, self centered to the extreme. His brother has major anger at the drop of a dime.(Been married 3 times, heading toward the 4th).

I think my H can't shake what he sees in their behavior as reprehensible therefore he must be JUST like them....and THAT is in no way true. Not sure how to help him see this. His dad did have redeeming qualities but they were very much overshadowed by the unknown at the time "ADD". His brother, unfortunately does not. I don't mean to be harsh but my H will say that as well. The whole family dynamic is sad....most of them are not happy people...extreme jealousy over what other siblings do and have....for pete's sake....GROW UP!!!

Perhaps I need to ask him about this and give him "room" to get passed thinking he must be like them..and he can't stand that thought.

Exactly Right I Do Beleive.... Zapp

Submitted by kellyj on Thu, 04/28/2016 - 09:10

My whole family is in denial.....that's the point. To this day....I cannot talk about these things with my sisters. I tried once....and my middle sister broke down in tears and my oldest sister started to rationalize in defense of being just the way they are even though....my oldest sister is pretty sharp. She thinks about things deeply and in part....has come to accept certain things but just not others.

For example....later....she admitted that she looked up "introversion" and agreed.....she's an introvert and as she does.....thoroughly researches the literature to familiarize herself with what that is? Me too....we are very much alike in that department. My other sister....not so much. She breaks down in tears when overwhelmed instead of getting hostile and angry....but the net result....is her not willing to look at it....AT ALL...and just continue on the way she does.

If you've got the entire family only seeing what they do as average.....then how do you get them to see otherwise. The family will always pull you back in line when you try and step out as I found the hard way. It makes you feel deserted and isolated and in my own family....they start to not include you in things. That's what happens and it's why this is so difficult to do? Which way do you go? With your own family or origin....or with the new one you've created. I went with the new one....and then the new one disappeared into thin air. Now your Fucked and all alone. This is exactly what happened to me and that really really sucked for a very long time. Talk about depression? This is the risk you take.

I had to make a choice and in doing so.....depart from my family of origin in a very unhealthy way since there was a price to pay in doing this and that price is to be left alone and completely by yourself since....if you aren't going to play "our game"....then you can't be in the Reindeer games anymore. Sorry.....those are the rules....make your choice.

I chose myself....all said and done and it was the right one....all things considered.

Taking son to store

Submitted by Delphine on Wed, 04/27/2016 - 20:33

"Another one....my mother told me that taking me to the store was a real chore for her when I was really little. She said she needed to walk down the middle of the isle and keep a wide margin of room between me and anything I get reach because as soon as I could....I would pull everything off the shelves or cause a chain reaction of items to cascade onto the floor. Apparently....this happened quite often as I was told. lol"

My issue with taking my son to the store when he was young (or out places in general) was that he would wander off, lost in his own world and thoughts...and I would get frantic looking for him! These days you're always hearing about kids being abducted...

Pulling stuff off the shelves would have been easier to deal with :)

Delphine

Oh NO...... Delphine

Submitted by kellyj on Thu, 04/28/2016 - 14:22

I did that too! Double the fun for my mom! It got the point that my Mom just let me go later since she knew where I was....in the toy section! She could count on it...like clock work.

Another funny story about that one. When was it?....1962 or 3? The World Fair in Seattle (Space Needle)...our family visited Seattle to go see the World Fair together. And I proceeded to take off on my own immediately! ( I remember this one too )...I was 5 ? My father held my mother back from going to catch me....and my entire family just watched me and let me go but still kept me in sight. I remember suddenly realizing.....I was all alone and standing in a sea of people and immediately started crying. Apparently....my father kept holding my mothers arm from going to get me to let me just live with that for a while? I can't say that didn't make an impression on me because I remembered it and it seemed to work in keeping me closer and keeping an eye on my family after that.

And my personal living night mare which....too this day....I will politely refuse to go do. My mother would take my sisters clothes shopping ( 6 and 8 years older than me)....and I had to go along for an entire afternoon of Hell for me. I use to entertain myself by exploring and climbing around inside the clothes rounders and scaring ladies when they would pull the clothes back.....BOO! LOL

OR.....crawl around inside the dressing rooms and look underneath the stalls.....BOO...again! LOL I wish I had video of some of those moments! lol

A defining moment in my early life....was when I discovered...I could run faster than my Mom. " O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!" lol

Frabjous!

Submitted by Delphine on Fri, 04/29/2016 - 03:44

That quote is one of my favorites. Lewis Carroll rocks! Clearly you were a real handful back then. But you've turned out well enough :) My son was super active as a child...he would wear me out, but I considered it was just normal kid stuff. I did find him hard to cope with at times, but I think most moms go through that. He learned to read very well...I read him tons of books, and he read a lot on his own, after he learned, of course. Just trying to figure out, in retrospect, whether he showed signs of ADHD...I think it can be hard to tell, with kids? He wasn't diagnosed ADHD until a few years ago. I was skeptical at first, but now that I've learned more about the symptoms, I can see it. What about you, when were you diagnosed, J? What was it like growing up ADHD?

Delphine

Life Saver.....Swimming, Delphine

Submitted by kellyj on Fri, 04/29/2016 - 11:56

I wasn't officially diagnosed until I was 50 ( just 8 years ago )....so until then, I was completely ignorant about anything that had to do with ADHD. I barely even knew what it was..... just another vague acronym that had nothing to do with me...or so I thought! lol And yes....I was a handful (another understatement)... but mostly it wasn't destructive. mean spirited, delinquent or even oppositional defiant...however, I had a penchant for mischief and practical jokes in some more questionable ways that was not always appreciated. lol Trick or Treat was any day I got a wild hair and that happened whenever I got bored or restless.

And going right along with what Liz said in response to me about her H my possible take on her husbands comment about "I don't like to be told what to do".....I was pretty singularly minded, strong willed and stubborn without actually being disobedient or willfully breaking rules ( the law) or not following them however..... I have always marched to the beat of a different drummer....that much everyone knew for sure..... including me! lol Without having to try.....I was an eclectic mix and that had my mother completely bewildered and without any way to understand what to do sometimes!

She grew up in an isolated rural part of So-Cal and only had a sister and her mother as her main companions. Her father worked so her entire childhood and early life revolved around female interests and activities and even to the point that her first experience away from home was in a Sorority House at UCLA. As I am now speculated....she had ADHD/ADD but she was also very attractive which gained her entrance to a lot of new experiences.....and at the same time....was too her detriment I think. Her focus revolved around her appearance more than relying on her intelligence which I feel she was almost gifted in in her own right. Her mathematical mind was (as I see it)...was way off the chart for most woman of that era with no real input from outside sources. I stumble across her old homework from college after she died..... and in her freshman year of college she was taking advanced Trig and Calculus which I remember her telling that 'Math" was always easy for her. I don't even think she new how unusual that was with nothing or no one else to compare herself too?

All I knew was.....I struggled in math during school (the only area of difficulty I had) and she was my tutor (not my father) and she could pick up a math book (at a glance) and go right to it and completely understand at any stage in my years of school. This....from never going back to school after she was married and never spent any time at academic pursuits what so ever. Brains, beauty and musical talent was her way out of "no where" where she grew up.

Unfortunately (as I am seeing it)...in that same era she grew up in....brains were not as "desirable" as beauty and that was like I said....to her detriment in many ways.

Fast forward to me spending a disproportion time in women's clothing departments when I was really little....lol And her not having a clue what to do with a little boy! lol She seemed completely like a fish out of water with me and had no idea what to do about it! (especially since she had my sisters first and that fit right into what she knew)...and then came me. lol

Clueless was her general state of being as I saw it and to a certain extent....I was an enigma to her in all respects. And she told me that in her own way as she would recall the stories of my early years (riding my trike down the stairs and being mischievous)....as she put it....my sisters were nothing like me and she wouldn't have ever imagined in wildest dreams that I would come up with the things that I gravitated to (or did). She was woefully ill prepared! lol Seemingly...the source for a lot of anxiety for her as well. It was an adventure that we both shared together and the basis of our relationship! In some ways very close....and in some ways....like on different planets. lol But all said and done....I did love her very much and we had a special relationship due to her giving nature and her willingness to adapt and adjust which I stretched her horizons beyond her wildest dreams sometimes! (not always pleasant dreams with Unicorns and Rainbows and Sugar and Spice and Everything Nice however....but none the less lol )

Taking what Melissa mentioned in her blog post about men with ADHD not being boring....this applied to my mother and my relationship with her while I was growing up as well....but not by her own choosing. ( thinking for her...."I'm in over my head! lol) Which is why when I showed interest in swimming when I was 5....(the same time frame when I got Lost in Seattle) and then the very next year....she signed me up and I joined a competition swim team which I stayed with all the way until I graduated High School. This as I see it now....was what saved my life in oh so many ways being an un- diagnosed child (and adult) with ADHD.

I'm curious now Delphine....are there any similarities in your son and my brief history in correlation to what you experience raising your son?

PS...my mother read to me a lot too....and always had music playing in our house....symphony, big band, jazz singers and even liked the Beatles. Peter and the Wolf and West Side Story ( Leonard Bernstein) were hers and my favorites....Lewis Carroll too:)

Some similarities

Submitted by Delphine on Sun, 05/01/2016 - 03:59

Like you, my son could easily get bored and restless...the word "peripatetic" seems to suit him well as it seems it did you. It seems you and your mother were close despite her bewilderment with you--she gave you a lot of attention, and that is certainly true also of my son and I. In our case though, there has been a strong element of codependency (working on overcoming now) and it doesn't sound like that is the case with you and your mom. Interesting that you think she has ADHD also. I would think that should make it easier for her to understand your own symptoms. I wonder why that was not the case.

Interesting you say that swimming saved you. I've posted before here that intense exercise and an Atkins type diet (high protein, low carb) are very helpful for ADHD. I read that here. It is channeling the spirit of a boy who was ADHD when he was in body.

http://channelingerik.com/spiritual-basis-adhd/

Me: So, give us at least one thing a parent can do, exercise, perhaps a grounding exercise or something that would help this child fit into society.

Erik: I got it. Number one, physical exertion to the point of exhaustion whether it’s swimming because it’s a great breathing exercise, whether it’s running, whether it’s kickboxing. I don’t care. Find out what they like to do, in fact three things to do. It’s way more important for them to be physically active than for them to sit down and do their homework. Second thing, energetically what I would do is any kind of polarity techniques where you’re hooking up the positive energy of the body to the negative energy of the body. You, as a parent, can learn how to do that. Reiki is a little too calming. Remember we don’t want to calm them down because that’s not how they’re wired. We need to shock them. That’s kind of what polarity exercises do.

Jamie (laughing): Polarity doesn’t shock, people! (To Erik) Don’t say it like that!

Me: Bzzzz. Like sticking your finger in an electric socket.

Erik: You act like jumper cables, moving the energy through your body so you can run it more quickly.

Jamie (chuckling): But it won’t physically shock you.

Me: Well Jamie, where can we find out more about different polarity techniques?

Jamie: Oh, gosh. All online, and they have wonderful books. These polarity exercises are wonderful. They feel great, easy to follow. Trust me.

Me: Any specific grounding exercises? I know you can make them aware of where their feet are, etc. That helps too? Getting them barefooted in the grass and things like that?

Jamie: Yes. Absolutely. Anything that gets them closer to nature, building a tree house, having an underground play room, whatever it is. Water. They need to get all the elements. These people need to be near the elements.

Me: Well Erik, you liked fire.

Jamie nods her head with her eyes wide open.

Me: You burned up some things!

Interesting, huh, that swimming was the first exercise mentioned there! Do you still swim, or what kind of exercise do you do? I got my son a rebounder (mini-trampoline) and he loves jumping on it. I can see a real difference in him when he does that.

Growing up, he didn't have a lot of interest in being physically active, though we tried to encourage him there. In fact, he has had weight issues, but it's better now.

In case you are interested in the reference to polarity practice, I have something on that:

The FEEL-GOOD-AGAIN Polarity Practice
by Bill Stratton

Our bodies are alive with trillions of electromagnetic flows and swirls. When these are strong and orderly we feel good and are generally healthy. At such times our bodies will be polarized at ninety degrees — positively at the head and negatively at the feet. When stress overcomes us, the polarity shifts and the body becomes increasingly favorable to overgrowth of scavenger forms of bacteria, mold, yeast, parasites, and viruses whose purpose is to break the body down when we die. Overgrowths of scavengers in the blood produce fatigue and other symptoms of approaching illness. The practices below, done repeatedly during the day, will restore our body to 90 degrees polarity, roll back the overgrowths, and help us to Feel-Good-Again
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Correct the Flow of Your Energy

Forming The Steeple by touching the ends of the fingers together will correct the flow of energy, and energize the whole body.

***Palms should not touch. Mentally flow energy up the left and and down the right hand.

"The Steeple" helps restore our polarity and brings order to the energy moving in the body. (do not press the palms together). In a healthy person, energy flows up the left side of their body and down their right side. Our too-busy lives can weaken our polarity and reverse that flow. Then we become unnaturally tired or agitated, our thinking becomes "foggy," and we don't feel good.

Forming The Steeple by touching the ends of the fingers together will correct the flow of energy, and energize the whole body.
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Correct the Spin of your Chakras

***Thump your chest with both clenched fists..

"The Gorilla Thump" energizes and promotes health in our bodies. It also corrects the spin of all chakras. Gorillas thump their chests when they are anxious, frightened, or feeling threatened in some way. Thumping corrects the spin of their Chakras and enlivens their whole body. It gives them courage.

Stress disturbs our polarity. It is epidemic in the modern world and often causes chakras to spin in reverse. This makes frequent thumping of the chest a matter of good sense for everyone.

The Gorilla Thump corrects the spin of our chakras and enlivens us. It also helps us to face life with courage.
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Revive Your Exhausted Adrenal Glands

***Place both hands pressing on lower back region for one minute

"Peripatetic"...That's a New One?

Submitted by kellyj on Thu, 05/05/2016 - 14:00

To Delphine and Lulu,

In response to reading the word "Perapetetic"....I did immediately know what that meant but in a different way. But even then....I immediately went....YES! That is a perfect way of describing the "unseen" thing that happens in the "transition" from one form of energy to another. In this case....the actual transition of "energy" escaping when it has to go somewhere in the process of being added to something....and that thing needs to return to it's own unique state of equilibrium again.

I'll try and explain a "secret" that I learned from this in doing the work I do as a goldsmith with melting metal and manipulating it into a different form. ( a piece of art or jewelry).

Dede mentioned this to me recently when she was referring to her brother doing the same work I do and how "Silver" is more difficult to work with at times due to it's particular qualities.

Peripatetic in the case of Silver or any metal when you melt it and it goes into the intermediary phase of dimension (the transition between cooling down and returning to it's natural state of equilibrium )...can be problematic due to it's "Paste Range" or "Peripatetic Range" during this process. Specifically....it's "Paste Range" is exceptionally long which causes it to behave completely differently than does "Platinum" which is at the extreme opposite end of the scale. Both metal look similar....white or steel looking....but as we know....Steel, Platinum, and Silver only look similar but are completely different.

I can tell you from experience....if you don't know this...and you start to proceed as if one method "fits" all....you're in trouble because they will each present...a different results and a different problem....each time you try and use the same method with each one based on what they look like?

I ran into every problem one could possibly find the hard way and couldn't seem to find the magic key to the door which would tell me why? And then...how to work around this.

When someone finally told me about "Paste Range" (peratetic range ) and how each one behaved based on the same heat applied.....suddenly....there was my answer right there. It told me exactly why I was having each problem I had with each metal...and then told me what I needed to do to avoid it in every case.

You can't go against nature or how God or the Powers that be created the universe. But if you know the secrets of how the universe works...you can use that to avoid the problems that you keep running into by trying to apply the wrong method to the wrong situation?

Now....I can work with Silver, Platinum, Steel or any metal....because I know exactly the right thing to do (differently with each one ) and avoid the problems created simply for the fact....that I didn't have all the facts and information I needed in order to do this.

Is Silver more difficult to work with? No...not at all. It isn't any harder more difficult to work with than any other metal...it's just knowing the information and knowledge of what to look out for and adjusting for those things along the way.

I don't do anything different with any of these metals when I work with them. I just make slight adjustments and avoid specific things and still do everything else exactly the same. I didn't need to relearn everything all over again for each one....I just needed this one tid bit of information...and do just one or two things differently to get the same results each time?

The secret here...was in the transition. I was looking for what I was doing wrong...and basing that on the results. "I must be doing something wrong here? I need to find a completely different way of doing it.....therefore....."

Wrong! lol I was doing it right the whole time....I just needed to know one tiny bit of information....to make a slight change to how I did it....not to do it completely differently like I had originally thought. I spent years trying to figure this out by trial and error and that never seemed to get me the results I wanted? Sometimes by accident it turned out right....but I didn't know WHY?....it turned out right?

Once I knew the secret....it was a piece of cake. It's always easy....once you know how? Knowledge is power...any way you slice it? lol

Delphine...Coming Back Here

Submitted by kellyj on Fri, 05/06/2016 - 12:22

I wanted to make an attempt ( I say attempt because this is one of those mysterious areas of having ADHD...that I don't think others who don't have it....will relate to the same way. If you try not to relate your own experiences with this....and try and see it as something completely different...this might help in trying to get a better understanding of it.) It....being the thing that I see as being related to the a third dimension or state....(peritetic state possibly)...in relationship to energy, intensity and finding a release valve for it.

This is so huge or such a phenomenon I think....that it covers so much ground and is connected to so many other things....that it makes it difficult to explain or differentiate from the other things that are connected to it. The only way I truly saw this came from an experience that I'm calling....transcendental for lack of a different description.

I'm having to pull from a whole lot of sources in order to narrow this down a little so bear with me.

What it is not? Is behavioral.....even though behaviors are the symptoms but not directly tied to it as the source. When I say phenomenon....I mean it in a literal way as being a stand alone thing or possibly the source of everything else? If that makes sense?

To clarify....it's not something you grow out of or is tied to maturity or evolving from it or that it goes away or changes. The behaviors or symptoms may change....but the phenomenon that drives you to the behaviors is still the same and un-changing. That part may make more sense based on your perception of what those behaviors look like in comparing different people at different ages.

For me....one might look at me and say..."mid-life crisis"...."Peter Pan syndrome" or any other means to describe what it looks like? This is extremely dodgy and inaccurate if you can't see past this based only on the behavior itself. There is something else going on inside that has nothing related to why those two examples exist. This is completely separate from anything of that nature even if the behavior might look exactly the same.

To say this a different way....I've had more "mid-life crisis'" than I can shake a stick at if you were seeing it from that perspective (which is the wrong way to see it again). The other problem with that analysis is that...it been happening my entire life and this certainly does not fit. I think the "Peter Pan" syndrome might get applied since it might also look like a person who has not grown out of certain behaviors that you would more commonly apply to a younger person. That is (as I'm seeing) merely coincidence or association on the part of others seeing it from the outside I think. It's why neither apply and are both (wrong) or inaccurate if you are narrowing this down to it's lowest common denominator or the source.

"It".....being at the core or the energy source. This is "make up"..."how you are put together"....."hard wired"....."by design".....the place you "belong".....or the your ultimate "purpose" as you were meant to do. If there was such a things as your "Devine assignment"...I think that would be a good way to describe it....."your calling" in other words. The actual thing or specific "calling" is not exactly correct either....this is more intangible and things "fit it"......"it doesn't fit to "things". A "thing" in this case is any noun you can think of...."person, place or thing"....animal, mineral or vegetable"...that you pick?

What I am trying to describe is a feeling. And you know this feeling with absolute certainties when you feel it. This isn't normal everyday run of the mill stuff here. This is different....and the difference is distinctly noticeable. One might say it feels like elation or exuberance...but that doesn't describe this well either. Again.....you can't use those commonly referred to adjective to describe this at all.

And you could call it "Spiritual" without question for all the reasons I said it's not. This is quite possibly the only way to describe this feeling but....you don' have to do anything or believe anything spiritual to attain it or make this happen. It happens on it's own with no knowledge or understanding of it on any conscious level what so ever. That last sentence is a huge part of the problem until you dissect this feeling and eliminate all the other things I said. This feeling is more like your spiritual guide or inner spirit talking to you and leading you to things that get closer and intensify it and as close to the source as possible. Again....maturity and age has nothing to do with it but it existed when I was very young ...and it still exists today. The only difference is now....I can seek it as I choose....and I've experienced enough to know that it won't ever go away and I will always be able to access it again any time I choose. That's also a big consideration when someone believes they might lose the ability to find it again. The behaviors that would ensue from that thinking would lead someone astray and you would find that person chasing after and it in a more desperate...time is running out...type way.

In fact...once I discovered it and sat with it long enough to realize that it's never going away and I can visit it any time....the compulsiveness surrounding the "seeking of it" also diminished and is no longer a part of it any more for me.

So what is "IT"?. The only name I have come up with for this feeling is...."being plugged in." This is the raw...unadulterated, undiagnosed, untreated, un-touched drive to get into this state having ADHD. At least for me. And I know one way I can get there at almost any day if I have the recourse and time to do it. I just have to do it and I'm there. This was part of the "knowing"...it will always be there waiting for me..,.whenever I want. It did take me years to find it exactly and pin point it by trial and error since it can be elusive and it does change based on the activity if the activity itself only gets you part of it or a sliver of it. I can tell if something is going to do this for me or not..without even having to try it out anymore. Those "try outs" would be the "mid life crisis" improperly identified.... (and at age 25, 30, 35, 40, 45........) those aren't mid-life crisis's!! lol In that respect....I was mid life crisis'ed out by the time I was 50....I have no compulsion for any more at this thank you very much! lol And none in the future I guarantee it! lol

But again...it's not mid life crisis and nothing like it....that's the most important aspect of this even though real mid life crisis ( I suppose) could still happen in theory for someone else with ADHD since it is separate from the feeling of "being plugged in."

I'll come back here to finish this when I have more time to put this all into context.......

IT

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Fri, 05/06/2016 - 12:20

Passing by on my way offline. I'll be very interested to be in the background listening to/reading your conversation with Delphine, going forward.

About the IT? (not about you, J; you're the expert on you)

The spiritual traditions (plural) are insistent that the IT and the individual plug in with each other both according to the individual's underlying and present capabilities (one way to say this is that the IT fascinatingly adapts to the individual; IT shows up in different lives differently); and IT acts according to ITs underlying ways and ITs ways presented to the recipient at the moment (fascinatingly, IT is simultaneously NOT adapting to the individual).

IT's bigger than our own limitations and particular gifts, and can, if danced with, overwhelm and redefine our limitations. And overwhelm and redefine to us particular gifts. ITs own nature influences us; we don't, finally, regulate IT, and it's possible, not predictable but possible, via engagement with IT, to bust out or release out of our individuality (history, present knowledge, local to us capabilities, pains and aches) into something very oceanic, without perceptible end.

OK, I'm into listener mode. Delphine, I've appreciated a lot you've put out on line for us in this conversation area. Rock and roll, you two

I'm Glad You're Listening NON

Submitted by kellyj on Fri, 05/06/2016 - 12:59

Part of my story which puts this into context is rated to our discussion about Kansas and some of the things you mentioned about seeing different parts and the overall feeling that things are changing in the mid-west, the people and some of the attitude to go along with it. I couldn't really get into this and relate it that at the same time and thought I would mention it later if this ever came up. Now it did...and it will make better sense once you have the background as well. Tune in...lol I also appreciate this line that Delphine has introduced here because this is huge......oceanic is the perfect descriptor:)

PS IT fascinatingly adapts to the individual; IT shows up in different lives differently); and IT acts according to ITs underlying ways and ITs ways presented to the recipient at the moment (fascinatingly, IT is simultaneously NOT adapting to the individual).

I had to reread this a couple of times and compare what I was describing....and this last part is totally true on a daily basis.....until you find IT...and IT finds you at the same time....simultaneously. CLICK.....you / (I) in this case....are now plugged in......there is no plural or duality anymore....only ONE....you and it together at the same time. I'll come back.....

Part One...The Accidental Discovery of "IT"

Submitted by kellyj on Fri, 05/06/2016 - 16:50

Me: Any specific grounding exercises? I know you can make them aware of where their feet are, etc. That helps too? Getting them barefooted in the grass and things like that? That's an odd difference in how this was worded for me? To make them aware of their feet? Hmmm? I use to go barefoot from June 10th or so (last day of school) until the first day back to class. What I remember was....loving the feel of the earth, dirt and grass ON my feet. I was trying to get rid of the feeling OF my feet since it took a month or so of walking around on hot pavement until my feet were calloused enough not to feel them anymore!! lol I lived in cut off shorts (my school long pants turned into summer shorts) and T-shirts....but only when I absolutely had to...otherwise....no shirts, my swim suit as underwear (speedo) and cut offs. I was a good scout....always ready!!

Jamie: Yes. Absolutely. Anything that gets them closer to nature, building a tree house, having an underground play room, whatever it is. ........Close was mental masturbation for me....in IT...or not at all....just like Horseshoes and Hand Grenades....close...did not count.

Water. They need to get all the elements. These people need to be near the elements. Or better...IN them not..... just near them. Yes...I still swim. For me....nothing takes the place of being IN, UNDER, ON.....the water and exercising at the same time.

Unless it's skiing or Mt Climbing....and I'm ON the mountain at the same time. Near it....looking up at it from the parking lot or view point is shall we say....Ho Hum. lol That would be the same as sitting in an air plane and looking down at the earth below. Ho Hum...."Can I have another drink please....and make it a double....this sitting here inside a cabin while flying through the air is about to make me fall asleep." lol

Me: Well Erik, you liked fire.

Jamie nods her head with her eyes wide open.

Me: You burned up some things! I love camp fires and bon fires....I was nick named "Pyro boy" by some of my friends. It's the fire....not burning things up.

Growing up, he didn't have a lot of interest in being physically active, though we tried to encourage him there. If you tied me to a chair and tried to prevent me from going outside (in any weather)....I would have gnawed through the rope with my teeth...and if that didn't work....possibly my arm right off as well to escape to only do physically active things. Being still and not moving was the problem for me.

In case you are interested in the reference to polarity practice, I have something on that:

OR?......In my case....what I discovered has to do with movement or being in motion. That as I know have discovered...is the key to my particular state of Nirvana. Movement...only secondary to speed. Speed is the threshold and doorway though to inner peace and tranquility for me...and since rate applies to motion.....they are both interwoven together and inseparable. This does apply to the shock that was mentioned but here's how I first discovered it.

I was in Phoenix Arizona after helping my ex wife's Grandfather move there from Oregon. I drove the moving van by myself down there and threw my motorcycle in the back since a friend of mine had invited me to join him in Auburn California for a 3 day motorcycle meet (BMW Annual International Meet/Convention ) and I really didn't want to miss it. Since I was obligated to drive down to Phoenix with 2 days to spare....I had exactly 2 days to get there and not miss any of the activities. I decided to hit the Grand Canyon and Yosemitie on the way...which routed me straight across Nevada from Utah to California and then go over the pass and into Yosemite and then up a short trip to Auburn. I figured I could do it in two days if I didn't stop too much for sight seeing. This was an understatement as it unfolded and brought me to my discovery.

Fast forward to the morning of day two. I had a Hell-a-scious journey from St George Utah over the pass into Nevada (9000 ft) during a lighting storm with bolts of lighting actually hitting below me instead of above me while in driving rain and total darkness. That was fun. Needless to say...I was glad to be alive when I reached Pennecca NV right on the Utah/Nevada border around 2 am on the first day.

When I woke up the next morning (camping only....more, being IN nature, not just near it) The sun was up, the sky was clear and I was up with the sun and ready to go. It was 200 miles from Pennecca to Tonnepah and that was just the first leg of the day to get to Auburn and I needed to arrive by 7pm so I had to make some time. There was only one town between the two called Rachael NV...at the 100 mile mark so I knew I would be fine with gas as long as I gassed up there to make it all the way to the other side of the state. The other interesting part of this trip had to do with the highway I was on. It went right by area 51 and was nicknamed the "Extraterrestrial Highway" (375? I can't remember). Which means....I was as far from as one could get to any populated area in probably the entire Continental US because it's desert as far as the eye can see from horizon to horizon.

To hasten this story up....I needed to go...and go fast to get there. And since Rachael is not much of a town...and more of a couple of double wide's and a gas station....I felt safe enough to not concern myself with speed laws if you can imagine? This is the set up for an amazing day for me and one I will not soon to forget. I did arrive at Auburn at 7:15pm ...(only 15 minutes late)....but to do this meant driving 200 miles across Nevada and into California in two hours...while stopping for gas in Racheal....to only find that they had no gas...and I only had enough gas to make it half way to Tonnapah....which meant I was trapped in Rachael.....until after only 5 minutes of standing there wondering what I was going to do....a local with a pickup comes by and says "look'in for gas?". "Why yes....how did you know?"....who then proceeded back to his double wide and comes back with a Gas can that I thankfully paid him $20 for 4 gallons of gas, and was back on the road in only 20 minutes which left.....1 hr and 40 minutes to go 200 miles total. If you do the math....that will give you an idea of how fast I was going for the entire time none stop.

And that's when it hit me. I had reach the perfect state of equilibrium and remained that way as long as I was moving at faster that 120 miles an hour....while immersed in the environment...intimately....in total solitude (except for a VW Bus and a Mercedes who I think I scared the shit out of when I passed them from behind since they were probably going 70mph or 80mph and was not expecting something flying by them at the rate I was going....almost for sure for the VW since I looked back and saw it doing a little weaving for a second in my rear view mirror after I passed.)

I thought about this later and thought about what speed terminal velocity is reached...180mph. If I could have ( my bike would have gone that fast) I would have...but my bike topped out at 140 with all the gear and weight I was traveling with and can only go 150 down hill if I push it, Bu rethinking this again....120 mph...seemed to be the magic marker between staying below the threshold and actually going across it into Nirvana. Along with this discovery....I recalled that 120mph is the speed most humans fall as in sky diving with the additional drag.... and I was there or over for the entire trip across Nevada.

This is where I was designed to be. It was the feeling of coming home for me. At that speed....everything feels right. All fog is lifted and I have total clarity of mind. There was an inner wash of all anxiety and I felt total peace, solitude and tranquility and absolute calm and complete without fear whatsoever. It felt like.....this is IT. I could not be in a more perfect place than where I was for that entire ride across Nevada....completely exposed to the elements, the wind, the heat and the smells...while at the same time....traveling at a speed that seemed to be perfect in every respect. I no longer felt like I was being held up or restrained and I was moving at the speed that matched my brain and body in every way. All my Chakras and magnetic fields had finally....for the first time in my life.....lined up and everything was right...and continued to stay that way...as long as I did.

(fascinatingly, IT is simultaneously NOT adapting to the individual). It does...if you reach that point. In my case....I had never gone far enough to shock myself into that state before....that was the problem. Everything below that seemed like just what you were saying...and that's the place where you and I live all the time.

Part 2 to come.....

Bicycle Brakes and a VW Bug Transmission Part 2

Submitted by kellyj on Sat, 05/07/2016 - 11:13

"Well, your brain is like a Ferrari race-car engine. It is very powerful. With the right care, you will win many races in your life."

I pause. “But there is one problem.” Parents and son shoot looks at me. “You have bicycle brakes. Your brakes are not strong enough to control the powerful brain you’ve got. So, sometimes, you race past places where you mean to stop, or you ignore instructions you mean to hear. But don’t worry. I am a brake specialist. I will help you strengthen your brakes, so you can become the champion you are.” For the next 15 minutes, we discuss the race-car brain outfitted with bicycle brakes. Dr Ned Hallowell MD

I had a chance to re-read my adventure from start to finish...and something that seems quite obvious to me, is the direct correlation to the description Dr Hallowell spoke of in this excerpt taken from an article I found on ADDITUDEmag.com. Okay...so mine is a motorcycle not a Ferrari...that's just splitting hairs.

Taking from that and adding something else I feel inside me all the time....is not only the way under sized brakes...but a really bad transmission (shifting gears from one thing to another ). Having a Ferrari with a VW bug transmission....is a perfect addition to what he said from my own perspective on this.

What you have to remember here is....I didn't know I had ADHD at the time. The amazing corollaries that I can draw from my experience and that of having ADHD (what it feels like) I could write a book on....but to name just a few that most of you might already be familiar with?

Feeling small (your world or physical space closing in or not being big enough)........In my temporary state of Nirvana where everything is right.....there is endless space as far as the eye can see....and no limits on speed and nothing to slow you down,

And if you don't need to slow down....you don't need brakes or a transmission once you get into high gear and never have to stop. How perfect is that for a Ferrari engine on a VW Bug with bicycle brakes? Those worries and concerns are no longer there any more...and with it....the anxiety and fear that if you need to shift or put of the brakes.....you won't be put into a position where that will happen?

For once....you can open up the throttle to the maximum that your engine has been dying for....without the limitations put on you before. I can't tell you how liberating and wonderful that finally made me feel. Like finally....I get to use the the potential that was there but I was prevented from being able to use?

The Ocean vs Your Living Room....If you picture your available space as the Ocean (in my case...the Nevada desert ) you've got lots of room to stretch and do your stuff. If your moving at 120mph....the view ahead is WAY ahead. It has to be or you will crash into something in the roadway since chunks of tires, road kill and any foreign objects in the way come up on you really fast at that speed. If you aren't looking way out ahead and paying attention to these things....you'll likely run into them instead of going around them to keep you out of trouble.

But comparing that to riding a bicycle....you aren't going to see a lot of bottle caps and things of that nature (poor attention to detail) on the road side if your moving at 120mph. You see the big overall picture because of the speed that your traveling. If your paying too close attention to the trees instead of the entire forest (or Ocean)....you likely run right off a cliff up ahead and that would not be good. Seeing the entire space your using instead of the space you are in at the time (as if you were just standing still and looking down at the ground)....is really all you can see when that tiny space your in for the moment.....only takes a split second to pass over and on to the next tiny space. When moving that fast....those tiny spaces become one big ocean and it becomes a blurr....and everything looks the same if you look down at the ground moving that fast.

Even if you tried to look down and see a bottle cap on the ground....you can't if you are full throttle with a Ferrari engine moving at that rate of speed. By the time you apply your bicycle brakes in order to slow down to take a look at the bottle cap....your all ready 1/4 mile past it and now....you've got to try and shift back up into high gear again with your lousy under engineered transmission that is what a piece of junk to begin with.?

Like I said...I could do this for quite a while... but these were enough I think to show the amazing manifestation of the "IT" and how it works. And when it works...you know it. And when it doesn't....you know that too. Nothing more frustrating that having poor brakes and a transmission with only a working 3rd and 4th gear. Every time you stop.....you have to start in 3rd with the entire car lurching and shuddering and grinding gears just to get up to speed again. (trouble getting started)

So to summarize here....this is a real phenomenon and it really does exist. That's really all you have to know and understand seeing this from the outside even if this isn't the same for you? That part...should be a no brainer to understand. If you don't believe it....then that right there is a problem. More for you than the person with ADHD since...having ADHD itself...is not a problem for the person who has it. It doesn't hurt and it's not painful all by itself. The pain and hurt comes when you have to integrate yourself with other people and you are not aware you are different.

You can call that Denial..,or you can call that ....you just don't know and there is really no way for you to unless someone brings it to your attention. All you have to guide you or to work from is your own inner voice telling you what to do. (my inner spirit guide in reference to that voice)

But when people tell you what they think it is or what it looks like to them....they don't know either and so on down the line. No one knows and everyone is just guessing at that point....on both sides of the equation. If those on the opposite side of the person with ADHD are sure they know what they see and are sure it's because of some moral defect....then there's not much hope for change, compromise or resolution there because they will be wrong every time they try. How could you know if you don't have it? All you know is what it looks like and that's all you know. You have no reference what so ever in making any determination about what ADHD is.....only what it looks like and what it looks like is never going to get the first response as being....ADHD. It will always be something else based on that persons opinion or personal judgment

.And as we all know what personal opinions and personal judgments are worth or like...don't we? (refrain)lol

The problem as I see it now....is that your spirit guide is actually telling you what to do base solely on you and having ADHD. That voice only knows ADHD....and everyone else's voice only knows what they know without it. (the personal opinion and judgment that is worth doo doo)

Those two voices inside us are the ones battling this out together....not the two people standing in front of each other who are unaware that this is actually happening. (the DUH...or Denial)

Call that voice the super ego or what ever.....it's the voice in both sides that needs to be silenced in this case and replaced with a new awareness of the unseen thing that is causing most of the problems. I do feel strongly as I have found myself....that once you put a lid on that little voice inside your head who is steering you wrong....you can start to see and hear everything much more clearly and make adjustments to your Ferrari engine by de-tuning it a bit...along with better brakes and an over -hauled transmission with stronger components to help compensate for this discrepancy.

Going along with Dr Hallowells assessment here....for me personally...all I needed was a brake job and transmission over haul....the engine itself is an engineering marvel in high performance however.....awareness of when you can use it at full throttle and being mindful where you are when you are using...makes a huge difference to everyone else especially if your outdoors in the the ocean or in your living room in particular.

That appears to be the biggest problem at first....until you start to pay attention to where you are and the other people around you at the time. This being the biggest and most important factor to be aware of all things considered for the person having ADHD. This is just my opinion but I basing on a lot of knowledge and experience along with actually having ADHD myself.

That's my two bits for what it's worth:)

Back to Kansas

Submitted by kellyj on Fri, 05/06/2016 - 19:15

So NON....what you were saying earlier about Kansas and things changing? Once I made my discovery (years ago now). I've made a point of going on a motorcyle trip at least every few years. The positive effect from one experience like this....lasts at least as long for me. What Lulu was saying about losing this part in herself for me....was making this discovery in the first place. I hadn't lost what I didn't have? But I didn't know exactly what it was I needed in order to have it in the first place? lol

Meeting my need for speed which I can't help but think this is entirely an ADHD thing now...made up for seeking it in parts and pieces along the way but never getting there before. That's a bit different and it makes targeting exactly what I need and reducing it down to getting just enough to do me good. Instead of chasing after something that I couldn't really pin down before in the same way wasting a lot of time in the process.

One of the best and most rewarding expereinces related to this was about 12 years ago...when my riding buddy and I took an 8 day trip around the entire western United States(most of them except New Mexico and California)...Oregon,Washington, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, Arizona, Utah and back to Oregon...6500 miles in all. Which means over 800 per day. You'd think that would have worn me out but as I tried to describe...I could have gone on like that for many many more days and was wishing I could even after I returned. 800 miles a day of Nirvana never got old! I was fresh as a daisy and wanting more even when my butt was feeling a little raw all things considered.

And to make a point here.....when you see the world go by and change so rapidly....you get a feel for what this country is all about. 95% or everything we experienced were ranching and farms mostly.. Lost's of cafe's and resteraunts with Wagon Wheels for signs.lol

And just so you know.....Two thirds of Oregon is high plains desert and the lower SE corner is exactly like Nevada. Rocks, sage brush and lots of open spaces.....and HOT with very little rain in the summer. Once you cross the Mountains..."it ain't nuth'in but cowboys and prairie dogs."

I had to laugh when the "Grunge Look" took over in the early nineties. I was thrilled since I the fashion of the times had finally caught up to what I had been wearing all my life! Pendeltons and Levis.....untucked of course! lol Neil Young was quite at home in that fashion sense and that still exists here even if the Grunge look is now obsolete.. For those who lived here....it was like..."what? This is a Look? I thought it was just how you dress? Go figure??" lol And that's because of the group Nirvana since they're from Washington near the coast and that's what they wore everyday too. I'll bet they thought that was just as funny as we did?

"It's not a "look" you tardo's....this is what we wear?" lol

Reflections on being a Warrior Mom

Submitted by lulu18 on Wed, 05/04/2016 - 23:01

I really enjoyed reading your comments and ideas J, they brought back vivid memories of the years I studied and worked with archetypes. What a rich and rewarding way of looking at issues, how could I have forgotten that part of my life where I studied Jungian archetypes? It took me a long time to carefully read your post,follow your train of thought and process it. Not because it was long, but because it has been a very long time since I actually paid any attention to my interior life. Thanks for reminding me. The comments were spot-on. I used to say "every pot finds its lid", and my Warrior-Healer found someone in need of healing. Unfortunately he was disguised as a rescuer. Rats! It was too difficult for me to see through to the heart of that situation with my son being ill, but the message from you and others here came through loud and clear- it hurt too much for him to be present. He could not cope- he has had so little experience in facing life head on that even when he wants to, tries to, he falls short. It is not my journey to rescue him. Adults do not need to be "rescued", only children do. Adults may be in dire need, but rescuing is for a child, at least that is my opinion. It's funny- but in yoga, my favorite pose is Warrior pose. It feels so strong and solid but very taxing to maintain. I think it is time to start remembering the parts of myself that I abandoned as life became a choice of " who do I save- my child or my husband?" How silly of me- only children truly need saving. Adults may need help, assistance, love, reassurance, but not saving. All of the rich and deeply rewarding things I did before I got married have slipped away from me. Once my son started having problems about 8 years ago the rest of life as I knew it vanished. I was a dream analyst for over 20 years-that too is a distant memory, but that part of me is still there somewhere, waiting to be found -rescued maybe? But rescued by me. Only I can do that with support and encouragement. I think this forum may be a collective rescue effort. Many thanks to all.

Coming Back to You Lulu....Blue Moon

Submitted by kellyj on Fri, 05/06/2016 - 18:04

I wanted to end what I was saying to both Delphine and NowOrNever by referencing it to my motorcycle adventure and my discovering "IT." Delphines observation about peratetic transition or being in a temporary state in the same way as I was applying it to having ADHD and the 'speed differential" I experienced comes right back to what I was seeing you say here......

All of the rich and deeply rewarding things I did before I got married have slipped away from me. Once my son started having problems about 8 years ago the rest of life as I knew it vanished.

I learned something extremely valuable in my experience that one day on my motorcycle. I hadn't experienced that before in any situation I had ever been in but.....close or a part of it for my entire life. I do remember a couple of times as a kid having this same feeling....but it was fleeting and my thought process at the time....attributed it too something else. Once I realized this....i went back over the times I remember feeling really great or having a very rewarding experience and in almost every situation I remembered....there were components of my experience within each time I remember (different day, different acctivity ..etc) which makes me think that this is a very real phenomenon for me. Like I was also saying before....this didn't go away when I was older or even to this day. The only way to re-experience this exactly...is to re-create the same scenario again but this is not about trying to relive the past or reclaim my childhood ( mid life crisis ). This is steady and unchanging and if it were something else....then it would be that which worked to do this for me? I really think it's a direct manifestation of the "racing brain" and a inner need for the rest of the world to speed up and catch up with me in one respect. At this point.....I'm totally aware that this is all internal pull and drives associated with ADHD so I'm not likely to just go with it every time I feel this urge. That's something that I have long since contained and I don't need this at all.....except......once in a blue moon.

At different times....I have felt as you do but for my own reasons. The thing that consistently has returned my better nature...has always been a brief (or Blue Moon vacation ) to return to something like this so that experience replaces the deficit in the feeling like all the rich and deeply rewarding things are just a vague memory of the past.

If I do this even once a year for only a day or two....it makes up for the entire year of not doing anything like this at all. That was the most important part in bringing this up to you. I think we deprive our self of things like this and no one actually forces us to go without. You can say it's because your son or your husband....but actually...no one is probably saying that you can't take a day or two off once a year to take care of yourself. And to a certain point....I think it's absolutely necessary that you do.....whether anyone else likes it or not?

This may sound self serving but really....once in a Blue Moon? I think the problem gets extended outwardly....when a person with ADHD just follows this blindly and has no awareness of it. As is for me.....for the past decade or more....I found that one piece of chocolate is enough in this case to do the job and the entire box is over kill to the extreme.

I think this was an interesting discovery for me going along with what I know about ADHD. I do believe this is ADHD related....but as I found....abstinence is not the answer and only causes depression. And once I found something that did this so well for me....I only need it once in a while to maintain a good healthy relationship to "IT"...and my wife and other people. Denying "IT" in this case...was denying a real bone-fide need to go to my church (in my case....the outdoors...for my spiritual food for well being) and do it occasionally as a necessity...not an option.

This is a spiritual "Walk About" for me and if I don't do it (alone)....I'm no good to be with for anyone else. That's just in my case and I can't speak for everyone with ADHD but.....

I think I can apply the experience with what happens if I don't do this ongoing...once in a Blue Moon....and that's what resonated with me in exactly the same thing you said. Especially if your H is not moving or budging from the eternal state he sounds like he is in. For your sake as well as his.....he would be wise to think about giving up something....in order to move a little.

As I'm seeing this.....compromising...means giving up something and that's just not all that difficult to do once you see what is most important. It may be time. it may be things....but more than anything....if one person is robbing the other for things they don't have themselves (out of their own deficiet) then if you go out and reclaim some of that out of your own need to be balances.....whether he likes that or not....I think you need to just schedule yourself some time and do it anyway....like it or not in your particular situation.

If I do my part in this well....I will take care of my need and still have plenty leftover for my wife or friends....actually....my friends many times are part of these experiences and I can still take a few to go off by myself and have some time to call my own at the same time. My friends are on board in the same way so this goes unsaid since they need it too.

One of my riding buddies is an ex racer and he just says...."I'll see you in the next town or when I run out of gas...which ever comes first." This works fine for both of us and we both enjoy the time we're together and the time when we're not:)

Makes sense J. As I read

Submitted by Delphine on Sat, 05/07/2016 - 18:45

Makes sense J. As I read your posts, I thought about my son and his often-expressed desire to get away from it all for a while, go camping with a friend or alone.
He hasn't been able to fulfill that wish so far. He is simultaneously free and unfree...he doesn't have a ton of responsibilities compared to most men his age (mid-thirties now), yet I think he feels stuck,by the demands put on him by Life, other people, and himself. I'll be seeing him tomorrow and I think I'll bring up to him the importance of taking a break as soon as feasible, and doing that trip he has been talking about for so long. He doesn't ride a motorcycle but maybe he will find his perfect "speed" in another way. A spiritual "Walk About" as you put it.

I could relate to what you said, that ADHD is not a problem in itself for the one who has it, but in regard to fitting in with people and society. I think this is true of many "handicaps." I put that word in quotes because seeing someone as handicapped is also a societal label. And once you know how to work with it, akin to your work with silver as a jeweler, it ceases to be an issue.

It really sounds like you have got a good handle on it, yourself. You demonstrate a lot of insight and it seems your life is working for you. How much of a part do you feel counseling has played in that? I want to bring up the subject of counseling with my son. I don't know if he would be receptive--but it doesn't seem to me that his med, by itself, is enough.

One more thing...I am just about to do spinning, something else that is said to speed up the spinning of the chakras. It seems most people have trouble doing this without getting dizzy. Not to brag, but I've always found it pretty easy to do. I can go pretty fast, for as long as I wish. I like to do it to music--so it is something like dancing, except that it's all spin, spin, spin. This might be another way someone with ADHD could get into the flow, plugged into IT. Has that effect on me. Ttry it and see for yourself?

More Than One Way to Skin a Cat...Delphine

Submitted by kellyj on Sun, 05/08/2016 - 11:32

And too this day, I have never understood WHY....anyone would want to skin a Cat? Anyway....lol

I think there really are a number of options you can find that will do the same thing for you and everyone needs to find which one of those will do this for you. Not too belabor the motorcycle story and what and discovering something that seemed to "call to me"...and then I responded to it (finally) I think was my own personal way of satisfying (more directly?)...the urge, drive, itch, need....to respond to something ( as I was trying to show at least from how I am seeing this..... the thing that did this for me.

I think the moral of the story here and most important thing I learned from all of this....is discovering and being aware of the things that can do this for you. It's rare that I can find anything that will do what I described quite so well....but a lot of things have to come together (recourses) and then the (time and/or timing) to re-create that for me in exactly that same way.

Something came to mind when you mentioned spinning. I actually like spinning, rowing and even to a point...some of those new elliptical machines they've got now. I use to have one of the old (first) Nordic Track machines where you slipped your feet into mock up cross country ski's and do the very same exercise you do for cross country skiing since.....I was trying to stay in shape for cross country skiing/snow shoeing.....so I could back pack into the wilderness during winter going up steep mountain roads (snowed over)....to finally get to these Forest Lookout Towers that the forest service use to use to spot forest fires and have long since been replaced by Satellites and Infrared technology. (I'm getting to something so bear with me lol )

Anyway....they rent these towers during the winter since they still use them in the summer for other purposes (which was really smart of the US Forest Service ) since they make money and people like me love to do this! lol

And why do I love to do this so much? Because these towers are usually perched on some remote peak or bluff....somewhere in some God forsaken area that is really hard to get to and you can't actually drive there in a car. (some you can in the summer....but the best ones you have to hike into and are really remote). When you finally make it to the top of the peak your on.....now you go another 4 stories up a tower and finally make it to a little room like a fish bowl....with only a couple of cots, a wood stove, a chair and table and not much else (primitive to say the least )....

But the point here I'm trying to show....is that now your sitting on an isolated Mt Top....in the dead of winter, sitting 40-60 feet off the ground, in a tiny room, that has a 360 degree veiw....of everything! It's absolutely amazing when you finally reach your destination and to that matter.....now you get to stay there for a while (rented by the day up to a week maximum).

And of course....you've got to pack enough food and water with you (and Beer....I know blasphemy...none the less lol) to last for your intended stay. I brought up the beer because of the fact that it weighs so much. (usually a 12 pack per person for a night or two) and this is just a part of my friends and I who like doing this....hanging out and drinking a few beers together while sitting on top of the world in the dead of winter when no one in their right mind would ever consider doing this (if only temporary lol ).

So now back to spinning (or exercising in a gym or at home inside on a machine ). I find (and found) for me....I have a hard time staying with exercising in a gym or at home inside. As much as I like the exercise and that's not a problem at all.....it doesn't get me there and I need to have other things in place to do this for me and goes right back to movement but not specifically...just moving. It has to do with traveling and moving from one place to another with a destination and more importantly....a destination outdoors and being in the environment your in. Not just near it, looking at it from a distance, or close by while at the same time.....looking through a window at a beautiful vista or something.....NO!!.....I've got to be part of it and smack in the middle of that same Vista at the very top with my legs dangling over the edge of the highest precipice I can find.

So for me....the Nordic Track trainer was only necessary....in order to get into shape and strengthen my legs....to cross country up a steep forest service road, with a back pack full of Beer, food and water.....to further climb up another even steeper trail...after switching to snow shoes and strapping ths skis on your pack....to further climb 4-6 flights of steep stairs....to get to the top and inside a fish bowl in the middle of winter where no "sane" person would possibly think that's fun or a good time! lol The part where you drink beer and sit and look out the window at the scenery I can imagine many people might enjoy....but getting there in the first place and doing it like I said (for ALL of these reasons together)...is what makes me feel "connected up" or "plugged in" and being "IN" or "Part OF" of the environment. It's the entire experience that does this along with the actual exercise that goes along with the overall experience.

And some more blasphemy to add insult to injury as some might see this.....we usually bring some kind of music player along to add our own back track music to add to the festivities. I know some have said...."oh...I just want to hear the sounds of nature and "commune" with it."

Well...in my case (my friends too).....we're "communing" all the way up there....once we're inside again (inside a room again)...we do what we would normally do if we were sitting around, shooting the shit and drinking beer together inside a room?) Why not? It only adds too....it doesn't take anything away? lol (also more weight to carry which means more training on the Nordic Track lol)

And I hope I interpreted you correctly when you said "spinning" since I get the feeling your actually saying spinning around in circles (on your toes?) instead of on a cycle machine as I was re-reading this? Either way....you like to dance and it feels good to spin (either method? lol ) and you like the music (the same as my friends and I ) and this get's you into a different place in your head or thinking and the overall experience is positive energy. Good for you...your not bragging either as I hope I'm not in the same way. I do understand it's difficult to talk about things you do well or come easy without sounding like your blowing your own horn. If I'm telling the same thing to someone who relates to it like I do (or does this themselves)...it doesn't sound like bragging to me or them.

For someone who can't relate to it in the same way....I have found they don't respond the same and sometimes they see that as you spouting you're own horn? It's why I'm always afraid of telling people these things since I have found the responses from saying the exact same thing to a different person...are not always the same or how I intended it or how I would interpret it myself....therefore....I usually don't bring these things up until someone shows an interest first. I never know how other people might feel about it and even sometimes....think that I'm just crazy! lol

Which kind of makes my point here.....I have read where it's not uncommon for people with ADHD to do extreme sports like this (I can go way past this as well,,,,,snow cave camping or actual Mountain climbing on Glaciered peaks)...that's really hard core and I'm probably past that stage in my life at this point.

But the pull or drive to go through all of this just to for a short time whether it's sitting on top of a Mountain....or riding through the desert at 120mph for 2 hrs straight.....is to be "plugged in" for just a little while....and what ever floats your boat in that way....is the the thing you need to find.

And in that sense.....it finds you and you find it at the same time.

Why did the man climb the Mountain? Because he has ADHD that's why! lol I think I rest my case here only to say that I don't think one persons Church in that respect will suit another one just because they have ADHD. I think you need to follow that pull sometimes and see where it takes you first...before you will really know. That was the main reason I brought up the motorcycle story since I didn't know....until I got there.

And to the point.....you can't get there....until you follow the pull in the first place. That pull gets you into trouble with other people at times....but denying "IT" (again) and and trying to ignore "IT" will only lead to depression. There has to be a happy medium in between and the awareness of "IT" in the first place I think?

To each their own in this case and it sounds like your found "IT" for yourself as well?:)

Spinning..... Delphine

Submitted by kellyj on Mon, 05/09/2016 - 15:19

It hit me later what you were talking about...I'm so use to hearing people talk about spinning classes and using the term "spinning" for that as I heard it.... still thinking this was not what you were saying (in reference to dancing and being dizzy?) What finally popped into my head was "Wirling Dervish" and it all suddenly made sense to me (duh). This is something that I might find interesting since the normal chatter that goes on in my head all the time when trying to sit still and meditate has always made that completely distracting and ruined it unless I have something physical (spinning as you mentioned ) going on at the same time. I think I'll give it a try.

Any suggestions how to start?

Give it a whirl :)

Submitted by Delphine on Mon, 05/09/2016 - 16:16

Yes, that's the kind of spinning I was talking about, J. I don't know if it would take the place of meditation, but it can be meditative in its own way.

Some good advice on spinning here: http://www.goodworksonearth.org/spinning.html

When I finish spinning for however long I do it (as the above linked page says, it is best to start slow, and 33 spins is enough) I like to put the tips of my fingers together (a polarity practice) and chant "Aum" five or six times, drawing out the sounds. "Aaaaaaauuuuummmmmmmmm." As it says here:
http://www.ayurvedaelements.com/articletheomniscientaum.php

When repeated with clear intonation aum aligns us at all three levels- physically, mentally and spiritually.

The ‘A’ awakens consciousness
The ‘U’ uplifts awareness
The ‘M’ merges one with the supreme reality.

Then I thump my chest with my fists like a gorilla (another polarity practice) and I'm done!

Good luck and let me know how it goes :)

Thank You..... Delphine

Submitted by kellyj on Mon, 05/09/2016 - 19:07

I wanted to also say something to you that I really appreciate. Your positive energy and outlook on things really comes through and speaks to me. The most challenging aspect to confront me with my wife is her negativity. She does not see herself this way and I think it's because she grew up with in an environment of hostility and negativity. This translates to seeing the world through the eyes of only seeing the glass being half full. Her first reaction to anything is what is wrong here before she see's what is right. Her first response to any new situation is always No....before it is Yes.

And first thing she will say about being in a relationship with friends who she likes vs one's she has moved on from as a determining factor is always..."I want someone to build me up and support me...not someone that brings me down."

This very difficult for me to navigate since...I'm always coming from the opposite pole. My first response is always Yes before No. I see what right first before I see what's wrong. And I don't have friends to support me....I try my best to support myself and I don't move on from friends unless they do something horribly wrong and even then....I am way too forgiving sometimes. That's the down side right there.

But needless to say...if someone see's the glass as only being half full....and you can only see the glass as being half empty....what can you do about that? I'm not good with support since I tend to leave that up to the individual and that's a lot of responsibility to responsible for if that persons good mood is contingent on you building them up and supporting them.

I think that's most of our problem in that there is a definite polarity problem going on and this is a quandary for me? I think if you've only lived from that experience...you can't see any other way and that becomes a hopeless situation.

If you try to do something and it doesn't work...your first response is....nothing ever works...why try a second time just to fail because that is what always happens. The answer is always NO first.

And if things go right and you look at that.....your answer will be....I was just lucky this time. Next time...it won't be that way. The answer is still no and never changing. I don't trust because people are bad and out to get you. I don't believe because I already know the answer and it's never good. There are too many things wrong so why even try to fix them?

This is the challenge I have. Trying to stay positive and remain that way in the face of NO first...instead of Yes.

And as I see and hear you here.....it is something that I think we share in common. Thank you so much for bringing your positive energy here with you.....I'm trying my best not to let this polarity difference between my wife and I affect me and I know it shows in my writing which only makes me more frustrated since this spills over into my general outlook which is so much not this way. The one thing I have stopped trying to do...is convince her that the glass is half full anymore and just letting her believe that it isn't. The vast majority of our fights together have been over this very thing.

You can't make someone believe anything they don't want to and if this is how she see's the world....I cannot make her see differently. All I can do is learn to be more supportive which is the one thing I am not very skilled in doing. The way I want support...is totally different than the way she needs it and fighting her on how full the glass is seems not to be the way to go about it as it would be for me. That does make sense if you normally see the glass half full....but at times, you just need to be reminded of it? Looking at it from that perspective I think....is exactly why this doesn't work for my wife all thing considered.

It's what I appreciate about your general outlook and why I think we share this in common. Thanks for the support and keeping my eye on the ball:)

It's been a long road, J

Submitted by Delphine on Tue, 05/10/2016 - 01:45

I grew up being a real worrier and feeling quite downtrodden by circumstances. This held me back in a lot of ways. This led me to study first, a lot of psychology and self-help books, and then I got seriously into metaphysics and the "you create your own reality" teachings.

notgonnalosemyself started a thread a while ago here, about a site that is about a lot of this kind of thing. Link to thread:
https://www.adhdmarriage.com/content/amazing-website-i-am-glued

Anyway, i continue learning and working on integrating what I've learned. Re your wife's negativity...it sounds like she is quite attached to her state of being, and not open to learning/changing. If that is the case, I think you are right, there's not much you can do. But if there is a smidgeon of receptivity, you might watch this movie together: https://vimeo.com/35423497

One of the comments there: "Such an important message here for anyone who does not yet understand the damaging power of negative thoughts and words."

By the way, I much appreciated your sharing about the activities that help you decompress and return to your everyday life with renewed zest. I told my son about the forest overlook thing and I think he will be interested in checking that out sometime. Right now he is pretty focused on creating some degree of financial stability.

The Perfect World of Loneliness....Delphine

Submitted by kellyj on Tue, 05/10/2016 - 09:29

I must preface this...by saying again....I can only speak for myself here....but I too have walked a long distance to get where I am today. And much of that rode has been a very lonely existence not by my choice. Having it my way....it would have been filled with positivity and beauty which is not the way my life started out by any means. I lived in a constant state of fear due to the violence that I experienced at the hand of my father when I was really too little to be able to process this what so ever. And to further make this worse....the only two people who experienced this other than my father himself....were my mother and I. My sisters never witnessed or experienced anything like this from my father and at this point.....I do believe I understand why? Simply put.....the thing that my father was enraged about towards my mother....was the very thing that enraged him about me which did not appear the same as it did with my sisters which protected them from it and never experiencing what I experienced. 'This became a dark and lonely burden to bear and my mother was the only other person in my early life who knew of this dark secret....but also had no idea why it herself. As I see it now.....the hatred on my fathers part was not towards my mother or I but towards a "thing" that he saw in both of us. And that "thing" as he saw it....did not belong in his house or in his world and he made that perfectly clear.

That wall of hatred created a division or separation....and a constant and never changing state of loneliness that at times was almost too painful to bear or endure. Not feeling welcome in your own home...and living in a constant fear of violence for something that was completely invisible to me....left very few options if you are going to survive this kind of situation? Once I took that loneliness and escaped this kind of oppressive environment out in the only place I really could go if I had to get away...was into the outer world of nature and being outdoors.

Whether by choice or not....some of the greatest blessings and discoveries that I made during this time in my life came from the beauty and perfection of Nature and exploring the wonders of being alone in it and forming a bond within that perfect world outside the walls of my home. That debilitating loneliness...turned into feelings of joy and beauty and a personal relationship with the energy of creation and all the natural forces behind it. I learned not to be afraid of the weather...or animals, insects, mud, dirt or things considered unclean or supposedly deadly. When you come into that world in a sense.....Orphaned or estranged full of only fear and self loathing due to something that you cannot see or understand....the world of Nature and the perfection within it....turned my loneliness and sadness into happiness and joy from being a part of it on almost a daily basis. I love growing things and gardens for that reason as well.....along with nearly any animal that I have always gravitated towards. Hunting is big where I live...but I could never bring myself to do that except for fishing and part of the reason for that is this early relationship that I formed with being outside and in Nature. It is definitely where I speak to the infinite and it speaks to me when I'm there.

This was not a journey of self discovery as I saw it....but without knowing the reason why....it was discovering my place and how I fit into the world I lived in which was self discovery in it and by itself in finding a way to change my relationship with the loneliness and sadness that had originally drove me there. Once you experience God in this way....it's pretty hard to go sit inside a church and listen to explanations of it via remote Satellite. lol I remember all I could think about when sitting in church was....how many more minutes until I get to return to the real deal and get the Hell out of there!!! lol Truly....I wouldn't listen much to the the program going on....rather....sitting with the program hand out when you enter....in my hand and looking at my watch. My mother was constantly ribbing me to put it down and quit looking at my watch because it must have been that obvious! lol

So for what ever reason you found your way down that long road....I must have done the same in my own way too. I remember one time someone saying to me..."you're an Outdoorsman." To which I replied...."No...you're just an Indoorsman....that's all.":)

Getting picked for the team

Submitted by jennalemone on Tue, 05/10/2016 - 14:12

This entry, J, I feel is so full of your truths. Wow. I think it is all in here for you. In this entry of yours.

I am so sorry your father could not have been a comrade with you and that he seemed to have bailed instead being a coach forming a team. When we are children, we don't know that there is anything about our own family that is "not great". We don't use psychology to explain our feelings or actions or words...everything just IS. And we cope. Coming to accept that our families are not perfect and that we must NOT KEEP TRYING to please the remaining, relentless ghosts whispering in our ears is BIG.

Mirroring what I read, it seems to me, the anonymous reader, that In your youth, you were not only alone, but also not supported or "part of the team" with anyone in that house. You fled to the great outdoors and the angelic feelings of the cosmos and the wonder of the miniscule. I went to art. Walt Disney was my imagined mentor. And it is those places, where we found another world of beauty, sanity, acceptance, support, talent, living right with spirit, that we probably excel even today. It is not wrong for people to outgrow their parents and/or their siblings. Lucky are those people whose family is and was supportive and loving and all on the same team. But many of us felt like "orphans", "tools", or "burdens" in our upbringing. We yearn for a community of team-hood AKA: family. I would expect MOST people must find their spirit world in nature or art or work or whatever to feel "home". Many people find their team/family/community in churches. I have a church family, friend family, work family, inner-spirit family where I must go to for feeling like I have a "place" that has my back ( or least does not laugh at me, condescend to me or ignore me). It is necessary for us to close the chapters on some of the lessons we learned as kids - and let those memories and chains behind.

Again, I am sorry your father was not a coach and your mother was not able to be mom AND coach.... and that none of your sisters saw you floundering by yourself and invited you "in". I am sorry for all the "orphans" in the world who long for inclusion in places where for some reason they don't fit in. My dad was the only male in our family. He came from a family of all girls. He retreated into worlds where he could "fit in". So he was not a big part of my life. He was working or outside doing "guy" things and couldn't seem to really talk to me or any of us. He must have been lonely feeling like he was not on a team. But none of us were really a "team". I don't know how great a job I did to form a team with my own family. Not great. Not as good as it could have been for sure. Most families just strive to survive. We all find our own ways, don't we? We all pick teams and sometimes we are lucky to "get picked" for a team. We just don't want to feel alone so much.

Jenna ...Thank You For Your Kind Words

Submitted by kellyj on Tue, 05/10/2016 - 14:50

What I discovered from this? The secret...is in the transition.

I feel great sorrow for the child that I was and I appreciate that you can relate to this too. (The Wonderful World of Disney...every Sunday night, glued lol) But I do not feel sorry for myself now. I see the child....and I see myself. And once you do that and go through that transition....you see the whole picture and all the good things that happened too. A huge part of those good things I described are still here with me now. The negative parts are only a memory and they stayed on the other side during the transition. (mostly....I have my moments )

And that's why all that negativity that my wife brings along...is like reliving the parts that I left behind. She still has hers with her and why she acts like a child sometimes as it appears to me even though I can be a child as well. In reality...that child is still there in all of us but once you leave the transition....and leaving the bad parts behind is where the secret becomes reality. Hopefully....all those good parts that haven't been lost forever. I found mostly....they're just buried under neath some shit and need to be cleaned! lol

I still love to play and I never intend to stop. When I play....I'm reliving the good parts not the bad ones and I'm really good at playing. It appears to be a specialty of mine! lol

I think this is what happens and I don't see any way around this? Times change and we don't. If you don't....you get stuck in time. And when that happens....you forget how to be a child again and forget how to play and have fun.

Melissa brought up Gottmans magic ratio of being balanced between the serious...and the not so serious. Or....positive experiences to negative ones for a happy relationship which is 5 positives for 1 negative. This is where I can shine. I know more ways to have fun than almost anyone else I know as long as remember to do it. The only real problem that I have personally....is not allowing any negatives that my wife experiences to rub off on me and only given so much time to do everything which seems to be another aspect of her being in denial.

Part of seeing the glass as being half empty...is feeling like you are always running out of time. This is something that I've been working on with her and hopefully I can swing her over to my side on that as well. A work in progress but hey....all we've got is time right? Making the best of it is the only real trick I guess:)

Thanks again Jenna

Thanks for sharing your early

Submitted by Delphine on Wed, 05/11/2016 - 03:35

Thanks for sharing your early issues with your dad, J...very similar to what I experienced with my father. Mom took the brunt of it, too. I am not sure how much physical violence my siblings experienced at his hands...but we all were subjected to his tactics of intimidation. Violence, like alcoholism, is a family problem. Your sisters were assuredly affected by what happened in your household even if they seemingly weren't.

Also, you and your mom represented something to your dad that he hated in himself, otherwise he would not have reacted as he did. Projection...

I can well understand the healing you experienced out in Nature. I experienced this also, although my main escapes were books and movies. I did find some solace in religion. Like you, I mostly felt church as something to get through, but the hymns we sang at parochial school took me to a transcendent place and I still remember a lot of them. And I agree with you that God is found in Nature.
I think you will appreciate this, from one of my favorite books:

“The best remedy for those who are afraid, lonely or unhappy is to go outside, somewhere where they can be quite alone with the heavens, nature and God. Because only then does one feel that all is as it should be and that God wishes to see people happy, amidst the simple beauty of nature. As longs as this exists, and it certainly always will, I know that then there will always be comfort for every sorrow, whatever the circumstances may be. And I firmly believe that nature brings solace in all troubles.”
― Anne Frank, The Diary of a Young Girl

Yes, it's been a long road for both of us, but I am sure it all helped make us who we are today. Oh, and re your last comment to Jenna...definitely, making the best of it is the way to go. :)

Delphine

The Long Strange Trip

Submitted by kellyj on Wed, 05/11/2016 - 07:39

Delphine,

What you said here is simply amazing and so insightful. Hearing Anne Frank retell of this experience was extremely moving. Thank you for sharing this with me and connecting my own experience with another who shared this same thing I was talking about from the same perspective I very much believe is true. I immediate felt as if I knew her through her words and as I said....it was very powerful and moving for me to read as you were describing this same experience yourself which made me feel in the same way towards you. John Lennon's words suddenly popped into my head thinking..."Instant Karma's going to get you....and knock you right off your feet." Your gift was well received. Thank you very much:)

Delphine....You Asked About Therapy?

Submitted by kellyj on Wed, 05/11/2016 - 12:42

And the answer is yes. Therapy was hugely helpful in better seeing the entire picture and opening your eye to reality as it really is....not just what you first might think it is from your own experience. You might even call it Macro Empathy Training. lol (just made that up lol )

From exactly the same insight that you saw in my story.....I learned a bit more in therapy from the very thing I was mentioning to Jenna...

"who's this "we"....you got a turd in your pocket?" As I impetuously (and sarcastically) would say to my mother in times of frustration over something that I saw or felt....but could not explain. Yet.....I knew it was there, and there was something... just not quite right in mothers stories or explanations to things and I knew it. And.....I was right. At least my gut told me it was.....

You hit the nail of the head when you said this.....Also, you and your mom represented something to your dad that he hated in himself, otherwise he would not have reacted as he did. Projection...

You couldn't have been more right about this one....bulls eye.

The big picture with eyes wide open and seeing the entire story takes away many of the hurts and pains from the past...by just knowing the rest of the story and being able to assemble all of those pieces together in a way it will make sense. I think under more normal conditions...most would not be compelled to to do this. Under the circumstances...it became necessary for me to explain the unexplainable so I could put some of this to rest once and for all. It was my specific need to do this in order to help to do exactly that. Along with it....to gain some compassion and empathy along the way. What I said to Jenna about the transition, and leaving the past behind you and becoming stuck in time....has everything to do with this.

To illustrate...for those who are interested.... what I discovered by taking those fragmented bits and pieces...and reassembling them together in a different way than the way I had up to that point......is when the entire story becomes much more clear and easy to understand. This is what therapy does for you....

As reported to me by mother on a number of occasions growing up...as she put it.."WE wanted to have a boy...and you came to US as a big surprise and WE saw you as such a lucky gift on OUR last chance in having childeren."

Is it further to New York....or by plane? What's missing here is the part of that statement, going from completely illogical...to making sense.

There was no WE in my mother statement to me. What there was....was an unplanned pregnancy. It might take two to Tango....but only one to have a baby. My father did not plan to have a baby....and to the point....probably did not want one AT ALL. He was completely involved in his career and was advancing up the corporate ladder in becoming Vice President. This was all he was interested in and another baby was completely not in his picture of what he wanted....end of story. For him....I was a burden and an incontinence....before I was ever born.

My mother as he saw it....was thrilled to have a another child and a boy.....he was not thrilled to have a baby period....in either gender! Now add ADHD to the picture...and you have a recipe for disaster. From the eyes of a control freak Narc....it was my mothers fault for doing this to him. And I was this "thing"....that he never wanted in the first place.....but, he certainly didn't mind the sex....that part was pretty obvious or I wouldn't be here would I? lol

Looking at it from that perspective....it makes what you said even more accurate. Much of the abuse that I received at the hand of my father....was in retaliation and resentment toward my mother for having me in the first place and putting him through all that he had to endure. This of course...was a transference of the anger and hatred of the imposition that this put him in and how that made him feel.

This was not something....that my mother could look at. This was her denial all along and where the WE came from within her trying to fill in the gap for what was missing. All she saw was her wonderful little boy and that is what I saw in her as well.

In punishment for her indiscretion here....my father abused my mother for doing this too him. My mothers entire world and her dreams of becoming a mother...were becoming realized through having another child...planned or not (as I mentioned in a more stereotypical female way in the complex shame that we were discussing in this very thread) . So none the less.... I was a gift to my mother....and an ink blot in my fathers ultimate plan for himself.

This punishment came in the form of attacking my mother in the most egregious way for her crime to him. Never physically...but with his words on a daily basis. As my mother told me was in confidence later when she needed to share her dark secret but couldn't hold back the tears any more...."Your father told me....that he could hire someone to do what I do for $5 and hour when the house wasn't seemingly...up to parr for him."

What this did....was create a monster inside my mother...and she worked feverishly to maintain a standard set down by him....so he would be comfortable and not inconvenienced in any way as punishment for having me and causing him discomfort. That statement was like killing two birds with one stone...... and quite frankly from an objective stand point....was perfectly conceived if that is your goal. His timing was flawless in that any time there was a problem that he was required to deal with that had to do with me in any way....was when he hit my mother with those statements to tear her down and attack her entire self worth which was the equivalent of an InterContinental Nuclear Missile put right on target.

This is taking blaming others in the example that Jenna and I were discussing....to a whole new level. There is a component of satisfaction and somewhat conscious intention within how my father did this.....or to say it another way....done with intention and for a purpose and was somewhat (even though not completely) by design. This is the defining line from what might be considered narcissistic behavior unintentionally...to doing it with a dark intention to serve as pay back for when my mother did to him. This is the hall mark or a defining feature of a true Malignant Narcissist.

He use to pin me against the wall out of the blue for no reason when I was older and my mother was not around and say " I know what you are up to....you can fool your mother....but you can't fool me." Clearly...that was his own projection of himself talking and seeing me again as the reason why he felt so bad about himself. When he saw me in my naive innocent state....he saw himself and what was missing and he hated me for reminding of himself of what he did not have.

Envy, jealousy and paranoid delusions are also a side effect of being in this kind of state of mind. In the case of a true Malignant Narcissist like my father....this state of mind is all the time and it never changes....and the abuse and this kind of treatment that comes from that...is constant and never changing as well.

This is the big picture and the real one as hard as it is to imagine. And that's the point of telling this to anyone who is really interested in this mind set. It's not one you could ever imagine of understand unless you were like this yourself. In my wildest dreams....would have ever been able to tell my own story or explain it to myself in the way that I just did. I don't believe anyone really could without knowing this in some other way or being told this from the inside....unless someone from the outside like my therapist helped me see entire picture and know it for what it was. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind...that this is 100% accurate. No other variation or other version that you might be apt to tell in a way to discount this or make it not sound so bad will apply what so ever. This is reality in it's most purest sense and exactly why what you said Delphine was so completely on the mark. I know this...because I was there, and I know what I saw....I just couldn't explain it.

As painful as my experience growing up was to me at times due to my circumstances....not knowing this and not actually understanding it so I could put it all to rest was much much worse....all things considered. I shared this with everyone to get idea of the difference between narcissistic behavior that we all have on occasion (inadvertent and unintentional)....and making a distinction with that in comparing how the mind the of a true Malignant Narcissist works. In my mind....it crosses from negative or hurtful....to destructive. In my fathers case...he had a moral code that he worked from that in my opinion....kept him from crossing the line into evil....but the damage he did was by intention...even though only somewhat and not with complete awareness....he knew better....and he knew what he was doing at the same time in service of he wanted and to destroy the heart and self esteem of his victims for his own personal gain.

Reward or punishment and revenge are key components within this methodology he used in order to do this. It's why any time you feel the urge to punish or seek revenge without a balanced reward motivation system with plosive reinforcement to compensate in balance (omitting revenge here of course).....it would be wise to reconsider this yourself since you are heading in this direction any time you do that. Think about it.

That last bit I threw in there for everyone else Delphine and I was not directly that at you. I'm thinking this might be useful to someone as well and just stating what I learned from it along with the same warning I tell myself anytime I feel anything close to this which I arrest in it's track...anytime I even smell this in my own thinking because of it. I think there is so much to be learned here and to see the entire picture in it's entirety since it serves to show the "real" story....and not just the one you think it is. Straight up.

And....by the way....this is past history for me. It no longer hurts and I can tell this without it bothering me that much only that it saddens me that I know there are people out there like this and those I try to avoid as much as possible. That's the benefit of seeing the real story and using that to help you avoid things in the future.....eyes wide open:)

Thanks for sharing J

Submitted by Delphine on Thu, 05/12/2016 - 05:05

Your dad does sound really awful J...I certainly had problems with mine. and I was wondering a bit if he too was a malignant narcissist..but I guess not, because he could also be pretty sweet when he wanted and when he was in the mood. With all of his issues, I do think he loved me, and all of us, as much as he could. What I gather from your posts is that there was nothing at all positive between you and your dad.

And I'm sorry for that, but glad that it seems you have managed to transcend that influence, and as you say, are at peace with it now.

Would you say you are an empath, J? (In contrast to your dad who clearly lacked empathy.) This channeling was posted in my feed today at Facebook. I know I relate to what it says and I think you might also?

The Power of the Empath ∞ Channeled by Daniel Scranton

"We are exceptionally impressed by those of you who have taken on more than your share of the workload and who have decided that you are going to be of service to all of humanity. Just dealing with your own stuck energy, trauma, and lower-frequency vibrations is quite a task to take on for this lifetime.

But some of you have actually chosen to be not only wayshowers, but to give others the opportunity to experience relief through your pain. You have taken on more than your share. Traditionally you would be martyrs, but in this particular time that’s not really happening.

So instead of being sacrificed for the greater good, and giving your lives for the cause, you have decided to take on certain powerful energy streams that have been plaguing humankind for thousands of years. Now it’s not all selfless on your part, because you understood before making this decision that there was also a great deal of power to be gained by allowing that much energy to flow through you.

Because as you feel the power, you recognize the power is you. And then you are able to not only withstand the force of these energy streams, but you are actually able to manifest using that energy. This is a time of great opportunity and great power. Those of you who have discovered that you are quite empathic, and have also decided to stick around, are meeting up with one another in various ways.

You are sharing your stories. You are helping each other out. You are becoming stronger in your numbers, and you are learning. You are learning that there is more than just making it through the shift in consciousness. There is thriving, and there is great power to be obtained.

Those of you who have experienced great pain are more likely to utilize the power in ways that continue to be of service to all of humanity. And so it is through the pain that you actually learn how to harness the power effectively and for the greatest and highest good of all.

And so we applaud you for doing exactly what you came here to do, and we offer our energetic support. But we know that you are more than capable of taking this on, of processing those energies, and of becoming the powerful creator beings that you always knew you would become in this lifetime."

Daniel Scranton's Channeling & Sound Healing

This in particular seems to describe quite well what we are doing here on this board:

Delphine

Charming Shape-Shifter.. Delphine

Submitted by kellyj on Thu, 05/12/2016 - 10:25

I would not be so sure about the empath diagnosis Delphine...but heightened sensitivity (along with the emotional lability aspect ) might have proved to make me more receptive to other peoples emotions or feeling deeply but especially sensitive others peoples anger. I do know one thing that I learned from coming to this forum ....and that more about PTSD. I think there is definitely a component to that...which does give you more a "radar" ability to sense or read certain emotions in others more in some ways due to the heightened sensitivity factor. Call it gut intuitiveness more than anything I think...less a natural ability of empathic ability if that makes sense.

Emperors New Clothes analogy seems to fit best in relation to me and my family....and that was largely due to the relationship with my father and I. I've intentionally painted the worse picture of my father in some way here intentionally for a reason and part of it what I finally learned in therapy which is at the heart of the confusing dichotomy that I experienced with my father and the rest of my family.

I guess more than anything and the reason to share these stories is to help someone else who might be having the same heart ache and utterly confusing inability to understand what they are seeing if they are with someone like my father.....to help differentiate that possibly... from what seems to be a common experience with being with people who have ADHD. I think if there is any ability that I have emphatically speaking....is to read that in people possibly better in some ways than some? Possibly?

The reasons I say this...are directly related to the qualities or skills that a Narcissist like my father have. This might give you a better understanding of why this is.... by illustrating what I saw and experienced (again...to help others possibly? )

Charming Shape-Shifter....He had the ability to charm the sox off a snake charmer as they say. He could convince you of anything even if it wasn't true (or sell shit to a fly ). If he wanted you to like him (which he needed as food to feed his ego ) he could do this easily and was very good at getting people to like and admire him which might appear as a wonderfully giving or generous in his own right....but there was always for a purpose in doing this or to get something from you and there were always strings attached to everything and he had control of the strings. (puppet master) There was always an ulterior motive in a self serving way which left you holding an empty bag...and him with a full one at the end of the day. But the way he went about that was so seamlessly unnoticeable at first....you thought it was generosity...while at the same time.... taking more from you than he gave in any transaction or interaction you would have with him.

In other words....he could make you feel good while being stolen from....but you'd strangely do it again anyway even if it left you with less, each time you did it? Think of a one armed bandit slot machine and the power of intermittent reward to keep you plugging more coins in with the hope that you might hit the jack pot....but in his case....no jack pot every happened. But he could make you believe that it would so you'd keep plugging more coins in with only the few intermittent pay offs to keep you doing it. Just enough to keep you coming back....but not enough not to leave you drained and depleted.

Narcissistic Slap Down...If he like you or needed you....you were in the glow of his fire. If you remained of use...of value...or served him in some way...you basked in the warmth of the fire. The second you failed him or were of no value to his needs.....that fire went cold instantly and the rug was pulled out from underneath you. If you picture being evicted from you home over night and left sitting on the curb with no where to go for shelter....that was a good description of what this felt like. What you need to understand about someone like this...is there is no genuine love for you even though you might think that it is.....but the slap down and callous indifference to you felt cold as ice when that happened and completely left out in the cold if you could not prove some value to him which kept you coming back and trying harder to give more (not less)....each time to win the glow of the fire back from the icey cold outdoors. This was the reward and or punishment system he used in order to get you to do this...and he could do this without you even realizing it because it happened over time. The time in between these events was long enough....that you could easily forget about being left out in the cold....each time you were in the glow of the fire long enough to feel comfortable again and think or trust that it would stay that way. This was the MO he used to get people under his control and get what he needed from them including his own family members.

So if you picture the little girl in the story of the emperors clothes who could only see the emperor naked while everyone else swore they saw his magnificent new wardrobe...that would be me in the story except....there is a completely different ending to that story if you are with a Narc like my father. Being seen for who he was in reality (being exposed as actually being naked) and you can see this makes you a target or threat and you are a liability to them. No glow of the fire.....no false generosity, but also in some ways....not taking from you either. If you have no need for them or cannot show the admiration or praise that they are looking for....the most you'll get is bone now and then just to keep you from starving.

To sum this up.....I saw the two sides of this because I was of no value. He showed me the dark side because he was indifferent to me...while he showed the fire warmth and glow to everyone else that thought he was the Cat's Meow. If you've every seen the Movie Ferris Bueler's Day Off....and whatched the utter frustration and complete melt down his sister (Michelle Grey) had because she could see the other side of Ferris and no one else could.....that would have be me in that story and this might give you an idea of that completely different perspective and ability to see in the way I'm talking about but only later when I got older and was a teenager that I really began to see it. All I experienced was the cold and indifference and seemingly lack of caring...in the face of seeing the warm glow extended to my sisters and mother at times but not me. My mother literally had to make him take me places of do things with me because if she hadn't....even those few times would probably not have happened.

But from my memory of those few times.....they were some of the greatest times I had ever experienced because I believed it to be genuine and real. I believed that he actually loved me and those were magical times as few and far between as they were (one armed bandit slot machine).

This is what is so hard or difficult to fathom....when the denial you are in becomes reality and you see it for what it really is. I could literally retell each story of my father in two completely different lights....and one would be glowingly positive.....and one would be more the one I've been sharing here on the forum. "The reason why is not to keep reliving this or going back over it for my benefit. I'm hoping to paint the unseen picture so if someone is really with a Narc like this....some of this might start ringing some bells and help them make a difficult decision for only one reason that I can think of in doing this. It's the one time (and possibly only one) that I can think of....where there might not be any hope in ever changing for a person like my father. If you knew that for sure....that decision would be much easier to make.

And all said and done....that experience growing up does give you something in an ability to read or sense things of this nature just from being exposed to it for so long. It actually makes you MORE susceptible to them as I found later on since it feels somewhat normal or the red flags don;t stand out so much since you become accustomed to them and they don;t necessarily feel wrong to you if you are with others like this. It can make you more vulnerable not less....until you realize that your ability to sense this in other people can used to spot them or see them for what they really are.

I can tell you one skill I learned from that experience out of a need for survival....

Once the emperor finds out that you can see him naked....there are severe consequences when he knows you can even if everyone cannot. Learning to hide that fact that you can see the elephant...but pretend that you can't becomes a skill that you develop in order to stay alive. Once that happens....you life is in danger emotionally and physically ( in a figurative sense) and you are now in harms way 24/7 and being eyed with suspicion and kept close tabs on. This was my experience almost any time I was with my father while everyone else seemed to be oblivious while basking in the glow of the fire and seemingly unaware of what was happening with me. It really was only me who experienced aside from my mother later who ended up in the same boat I was in order to protect me from it.

She made her choice.....and she chose me with the love she had for me which she confided in me later.....that she saw it too and was hiding it from him to keep herself out of harms way until she had to come out into the light with this to protect me from harm. She use to say to me repeatedly....that she would "die first to save her children" and I never really understood what she meant by that until that day of reckoning occurred.

This was the bravest and most courageous thing I may have ever personally witnessed knowing the consequences she faced by doing this. I saw a mouse transform herself into a mother Grizzly bear who was protecting one of her cubs. This was a completely unreal thing to witness and my mother transformed herself into a definite force to be reckoned with. It's why I now know without a shadow of doubt and a great amount of certainty...that if you become a threat to a bully who is taking advantage of a weaker person....they lose all there power and will back down and leave you alone. This is exactly what happened between my mother and father and my father gained a whole new respect for my mother and she got a voice where she had none before. From that time on....my fathers treatment of me and my mother dramatically changed after that.

So if I gained any insight or ability to be empathic or sensitive to these things...it came from the love of my mother in the face of overwhelming odds and opposition for someone she loved at the risk of sacrificing herself to do it.

And in that respect.....my mother was one of the greatest Ninja Warriors I have ever had the honor of knowing myself personally. By dong that...she passed that ability onto me by her act of selflessness in the face of someone who was completely self serving and emotionally and psychically damaging.

And I experienced this first hand in my ability to see these things today. I use her as my model in my daily life on a regular basis and my only wish here is to help someone else who might find themselves in the same situation by give them the inspiration to do this for themselves or for someone they love and care for.

So empathic? I'm not so sure? Sensitive or aware might be a better description? But I certainly thank you for your vote of confidence Delphine. I can tell you that I see the same kind of light in the the things you have brought with you here as well. Back at you! :)

Cosmic Reverse Energy Flow

Submitted by kellyj on Thu, 05/12/2016 - 11:36

I just remembered a simple formula that I learned from my experience that I just illustrated in my story about a Narcissist. This might be the secret in being with someone who has this propensity..... I think it is possible to find your equilibrium if you are in relationship with a Narc and not all Narc are bad awe ful people to be with. I know one who is a good friend of mine and in his own redeeming way...is one of he most benevolent and kind people I know. That glow I'm talking about really extends to most people he meets and most people including myself....find that he he extremely generous in his own right and is fundamentally a kind and good hearted person.

As a friend..who you are not dependent on for anything but just friendship and comradery....you couldn't pick a nicer or better guy to be around. And when push comes to shove and your in the same boat with him....somehow....you will always come through on top since this that glow somehow insulates him from things going wrong or badly for him. (unbelievable at times...like some cosmic force field of energy that surrounds him)

In other words....if you had to choose a boat to be in while navigating life....you'd want this guy in your boat when the chips are down. Call it luck of the Irish or what ever....this guy will walk away from almost any catastrophe completely unscathed. It's almost a sixth sense he has in smelling danger or picking the right door no matter where he goes in order to stay out of harms way and remain untouched.

So if your in his boat....you enjoy those benefit too. That's on the positive side effects of being with someone like this

The negative sides I already mentioned but the formula I found to keep yourself intact at the same time is this.....

"DON'T NEED ANYTHING FROM THEM........" Simple. That's the formula.

The more you need....the more they will take. The less you need....the more you will keep." It's as simple as that.

So that means....if you are needy and desperate....you lose. If you are self reliant.. self sufficient, strong and can get your own needs met without them...... and don't need them for anything.......you can do fine with them. In fact....that's where it becomes balanced. And if you are balanced yourself and still with them....it works out pretty well as long as you keep an eye on them and don't let them get away with anything and call them out each time they try. Once you are "on to them".... and call them out each time and they know it.....it won't stop them from trying....but they also won't get away with it. It's a pain in the ass sometimes.....but the rewards can be equal to the energy invested as long as you can maintain that balance and keep yourself level.

For a benevolent Narc like my friend (different than my father) in comparison....

My father was miserly and stingy and greedy with his pot of gold (the glow). He used that as a means to maintain the "0" sum game that he played.

On the other hand....my friend is a very benevolent Narc....and he is extremely generous with his glow and wealth as long as you are in his boat and he's the captain steering the ship. You just have to watch him and keep and eye on him and not turn around because he will always grab the last of extra piece of cake and not leave you with one if there is only one left to share! lol If tou catch him in time...and force him to slice it in two (splitting it down the middle) he will concede without a problem but he will do it again if you let him.

A funny example (just one of countless) to illustrate this....

I live with this gentleman for a few years in that we shared a condo together. No matter how many people were there for example...and we would be watching TV together....as soon as you would get up to go to the kitchen for something....he would always ask you to bring him something (food). Once you caught on to this....you began to realize he would never get up himself to get anything...and everyone else was always bringing him food from the kitchen! lol Always! lol

You have to remember in this....that this is a bunch of guys together we're talking about. This isn't a wife and husband with what might be veiwed more normal for a woman in that role to do. This became clearly obvious to a bunch of guys however...and once we all knew this....all you have to say was....."what's wrong with your legs dude....get up and get it yourself."

Which we did and there wasn't a problem. lol But that never stopped him from trying...and that never stopped us from telling him to get his own damn food..."what are we....your nurse maid?"

There you go....."need nothing....and get everything" simple formula for living with a Narcissist. The one thing you can always count on with a Narc.......consistency and predictability in every case:)

Who's Flying Your Plane?

Submitted by kellyj on Thu, 05/12/2016 - 16:46

"And when push comes to shove and your in the same boat with him....somehow....you will always come through on top since this that glow somehow insulates him from things going wrong or badly for him. (unbelievable at times...like some cosmic force field of energy that surrounds him)" "In other words....if you had to choose a boat to be in while navigating life....you'd want this guy in your boat when the chips are down. Call it luck of the Irish or what ever....this guy will walk away from almost any catastrophe completely unscathed. It's almost a sixth sense he has in smelling danger or picking the right door no matter where he goes in order to stay out of harms way and remain untouched."

When I wrote this....I wasn't even thinking about something that just struck me and I had to include it here to finish my story of my friend. (amazingly ironic )

What does my friend do for a living?....he's an Airline Pilot. And I would fly anywhere at any time in his plane based on what I said.

Coincidence?

PS....but I wouldn't marry him or live with at this point....just fly in a plane with him piloting it. I guess there is a lid to every pot?

Kudos to your Mother

Submitted by Delphine on Fri, 05/13/2016 - 03:36

In a way J, it seems this was an empowering situation for your mother, and that she may not have tapped into that Ninja Warrior aspect otherwise. I am wondering how old you were at that time? I'm very glad she was able to turn it around for you both.

I did see those two sides of my father than you describe with yours. When I was in my teens, he joined a tennis club, and he fast got a reputation there for being like a knight in shining armor...and he loved that image of himself. My mom told me that he was talking to her about that, saying that he saw himself as a hero, a Lancelot, and my mom said to him, "We don't see Lancelot." So she would stand up to him in conversation like that, but in general she lacked the strength to make the kind of concerted effort your mother did as you describe.

I wonder if you know much about your father's background, his relationship with his own parents, especially his father? Looking into my father's background was one thing that helped me have compassion and come to terms with his behavior. He was close to his mother, who died when he was 13, and his father didn't care for him. He ran wild, acting out, and as a teen, was even in a gang that robbed gas stations. Dad himself never acknowledged his past issues, was in denial--I had to connect the dots there myself. My mother had heavy abandonment issues also, was given up by her own mother when she was two. Taken in as a foster child when she was five, and that was a good home, she was well cared for, given a college education etc., but never had a real mother's love, or a father figure. So they were both very needy and looking to be cared for, and they weren't able to do that for one another. Or for us, although of course they did their best.

It's like NowOrNever said about how "the agony in one household was being duplicated not just in one other household but in multiple households in the extended family." Yes, it's the kind of thing that gets passed on, until we take charge of our lives and become determined to break the pattern. Seems to me your mother's rising up in defense of the two of you is a good example of that. Well done! I'm sure it made a big difference in your ability to move forward on your path.

i appreciated your other posts about narcissism, and your real-life examples. I agree the key is not to need anything from them. I think that's true in most relationships, actually. Needs and expectations only set us up for disappointment, in my experience.

Delphine

Remember What You Saw

Submitted by kellyj on Fri, 05/13/2016 - 17:43

In the Book of Yoga Sutra....it says, "We become whole, by stopping how the mind turns.....and can only become whole, when we are truly capable of helping others see the things that really matter...."

"Remember What You Saw.....when you grasp the image, mixing up the word and the object....that is the kind of balanced meditation which uses concepts. Stay in the one pure thought, and never forget it....that single most important thing: things are empty of being what they are by themselves. This is the clear light beyond all conceptual thought."

"Attachment to Distraction......giving up your attachments, consist of the DECISION, to gain control over your craving for experiences, seen or only heard of ."

It says it all pretty much right there. When we attach meaning to objects and things...these things carry with them that meaning from one person to another. When we are not capable of truly helping others see what is most important, we mix the word up with the object and can only know things as concepts which is the obstacle in our own inability to see what is most important or knowing what the pure thought even is which prevents us from seeing beyond the concept of "things" and "objects".

This is what happened with your father and my father as well. I was a "thing" as he saw me. He could not see beyond the attachment he had to a concept he learned from growing up. From what little I heard or do know....his uncle and father had a drapery cleaning business during the depression. But secretly....my great uncle ran a small neighborhood "speak easy" underground because of prohibition. (St Louis, MO) That meant....he had to buy his alcohol from the only source available in Chicago: Organized crime figures indirectly associated with guys like Al Capone and his contemporaries.

And my father learned to drive a car, smoke and probably drink when he was too young to remember (or admit). I heard 10 for the driving part since my father had to learn to drive in order to make booze pick up and deliveries with my great uncle in the drapery cleaning Van. They used the van as a front in order not to draw suspicion to the fact of what they were doing. So to not draw attention, and park the van outside.in front of the entry to the speak easy... my father would circle around the block until my great uncle was finished doing his business inside.

And just from doing my own detective work and finding out the bits and pieces to the story....I was able to put it all together in the way that made sense based on what my father could not remember or did not want to talk about. In my fathers case....I do believe he blocked much of that from his mind since his childhood was a bad time in his life. What I did hear from my mother which put this all together for me was..."your father resented his father for not working harder since he was put out on the street at age 10 selling news papers to bring money home to the family."

More likely....at age 10 was when he learned that he never wanted to be like the people he was exposed to and the news papers was only part of it. My Great Uncle and his brother (my grandfather) were probably (almost certainly)..... heavy drinkers or alcoholics by todays standards (not so much then)...and what he saw and experienced caused him to put one and only one thing as being important. To make money and rise above that from where he came from.

But his attachment to that thinking never changed or modified and he became stuck in time. He was still trying to escape his past until the day he died.

Another tid bit of info that fit right into this story was the day I was born. My father worked all day while my mother was in the hospital and didn't come to see her (us) until after I had already been born. Another thing by itself...seemed completely like a lack all good reason or consideration or interest in what was most important....by choosing to stay at work and not take the time off to see his wife and his son being born.

What was most important....was escaping his past since he was incapable of seeing the most important thing of all: things are empty of being what they are by themselves....the ONE pure thought. He couldn't stop his mind from turning which distracted him from it by the attachment he had to his past.

And my father remained alone and by himself (even though he had a family and my parents never divorced) ....until the day he died in service of escaping his past. He could not see the clear light or his attachment to the object or "thing".

Yes, it sounds like he was

Submitted by Delphine on Fri, 05/13/2016 - 18:22

Yes, it sounds like he was still carrying rage over having money responsibilities thrust on him before he was ready...and when you were born, per what you said before, it was like a replay of that. More unwanted financial responsibility. Most men, I think, would be happy to have a son. To him...you were a boy who didn't have to work to help support his family, unlike his experience. Perhaps why your sisters weren't targeted with that rage.

Add to that, heavy alcohol consumption in the home, which causes a lot of issues by itself. You didn't say whether he himself had a problem with alcohol. I think it's likely.

Yes, I am familiar with the idea that all events are neutral in themselves--they only have the meaning we ascribe to them. IMO, one of the key concepts that can free us. Too many, like your father, stay stuck in their "stories." They will wake up when they are ready--though perhaps not in their lifetime.

Delphine

Delphine....How Old?

Submitted by kellyj on Fri, 05/13/2016 - 14:13

I think I was around 15 or 16. This gets a little foggier since the second I could drive....and since mentally ....I had already split the program as they say....I was just going through the motions and not paying that much attention to my parents and the problems they were having and pretty much ignoring them. It was when my father decided to try and take control of this situation (in his way)...that my mother came alive.

As I see it now....she had split my fathers program already herself (mentally)....and was a smoldering volcano just waiting to blow. In her case....she felt powerless herself to do anything about that between the two of them.....but was not going to stand by and watch that have the same effect on me as it had with her. She couldn't do it for herself....but she did it for me.

And without knowing it at the time....she was doing it for herself at the same time even though that was not the reason she did it as I said.

And the effect that had on my father....was like cutting him adrift in a sea of confusion?? He had no comeback or had no idea what to do with my mother from that point on. In essence....he lost his control over her what so ever.

Ironically.....my father tried doing that triangulation thing with me and tried coming to me for answers or to find out what was wrong with my mom.

And in a moment of feeling rather full of myself when that happened in true teenage form I said...."She's your wife...go ask her yourself...how should I know?" Which pretty much nipped that one in the bud. lol

And as Narcs tend to do....that disrespect didn't sit well with him and they will come back later to do what they tried to do anyway (extremely predictable.....THEY HAVE TO....100% of 100% of the time). The thing I mentioned earlier about pinning me up against the wall and saying "I know what you two are up too...." Then proceeded with him saying " You want to take a swing at me and Pop your old man in the mouth....go ahead....take your best shot....I'll give you first swing at it."

This was unbelievable to me at the time. My mom was gone for the day and it was just the two of us together and I hadn't even seen my father for most of the day and was just coming upstairs (from my bedroom) to get something to eat (or something). Last thing on my mind was my father or getting into a fist fight with him. It was like he was waiting for his first opportunity when my mother was not around....to finish the job he started but I had never hit or struck him before EVER in my life. I was petrified of him mostly anyway and he would have beaten me silly in a physical fight. He was a coward and bully....and it seems that Narcs like my father will only engage when they know they can win.

And I just walked away leaving him standing there which proved to be the best thing to do anyway. I didn't hate him or want to hit him....I was terrified of him and only wanted to get away. He on the other hand...enjoyed terrorizing people and took some kind of sick pleasure in doing it.

He was more than just NPD...he was ASPD as well just you know. That's the part that takes pleasure in seeing others in pain and that's where it starts to become more evil in times like that.

You did say he left you and

Submitted by Delphine on Fri, 05/13/2016 - 18:36

You did say he left you and your mom alone after she rose up in your defense. So was that encounter you describe the end of it? Hope so!

Your mother sounds like a good woman, have to wonder why she stayed with him. For the same reason my mother stayed with my father, I guess. In those days, not a lot of support for single moms.

We are lucky to live in a time when there is growing insight into family problems, and resources to overcome them. This forum, for example.

Delphine

Yin to His Yang.... Delphine

Submitted by kellyj on Fri, 05/13/2016 - 20:12

My father didn't drink much at all....that was good. I think part of the reason for that was my mother. My mother was the product of an over bearing mother who smothered identity. She unfortunately....didn't know who she was because of that. There a major dysfunction in her own family growing up and it was the same thing that happened to my father but in a different way. Her mother had not left her past behind her and she was reenacting it on my mother and the whole family in a similar way. Idle hands are the devils playground as some might say.

Funny quick story about my grandfather on my mothers side. He loved music and specifically the symphony. But not working from sun up to sun down was a No No in my grandmothers eyes. My grandfather use to sneak into the garage every Sunday to listen to a symphony program on the radio that he enjoyed by hiding inside the car so my grandmother wouldn't catch him...."goofing off". Not understanding exactly what he was doing.....the car battery kept running down and finally dying and they had to keep buying car batteries replacements every few months or so. My Grandmother was pitching a fit one time when we went to visit saying she was going to go right to the top....and make a formal complaint about the poor quality of batteries the local store kept selling them! lol We all were looking at each other smiling and my Grandfather was looking out the window as if nothing was happening. lol

My Grandmother was a slave driver and could suck all the air out a room in record time! lol Our neighbor behind us once, when they came to visit...heard my Grandmother directing traffic when we were little out in the back yard playing????? I said playing??? Since it didn't feel like that to me! lol More like marching up and down with my Grandmother telling us all what to do every step of the way.

And when our neighbor just having a little fun poked his head over the fence and said...."you tell'em Sarge!"....My Grandmother tried to burn a hole in him with her laser beam stare that could make you shrivel. lol I think you get the idea? She wasn't mean....just controlling beyond belief.

So my mom barely had an original thought in her head at times and many times it was clear....that it was my Grandmother was the one talking via remote control through my mothers mouth even after she died. (kind of obvious it was so bad at times)

Another funny one about that....My Grandmother had a habit of saying "see" at the end of her sentences...and I use to go around the house doing my best James Cagney and go...'Ya neva gonna catch me Coppa....See! Myaw, Myaw!...to my mom making fun of her.... but I don't think she ever got the joke even though my sisters thought it was hysterical. I can do a pretty good James Cagney and Peter Lorre if I'm in the mood:)

So from that kind of mind abuse....you get the Yin to my fathers Yang. Between the two,,.,,they made one whole person. They were made for each other you might say.

So if you take what I just said...and picture someone coming into their own from a great need that was beyond herself.....it is why that was such an amazing thing to witness and completely out of character.

And yes.....thing did not go back to the way they were. It created a giant rift in their dysfunction which shifted way to my mothers side after that. My father later after I graduated college and he retired....seemed to have mellowed a little especially when my sisters began to have children and like you said....he didn't have to pay for those so that was fine with him.

And to the same point you made....when he no longer had to pay for me anymore...was when things to subside for me too and he treated me much better after that. Unfortunately...he died only 5 years after he retired when I was only 25. I only saw that side of him for 4 years and then he was gone.

On his death bed....he admitted to my mother he had failed as a father to me which was like a day late and a dollar short....even though he had plenty of dollars saved in the bank. None of us saw any of that since my mother didn't even know how much they had. He kept it a secret from her and she only found out after he died since our family lived very sparingly and not extravagantly at all....though comfortably without any financial difficulties.

I do have to thank him for one thing however....I did learn how to save and manage my money from him....that much, he was very good at.

All we have is time.....the trick is.....making the best of it:)

Funny Stories :)

Submitted by Delphine on Sun, 05/15/2016 - 00:09

Heh, that story about your grandfather and the "defective" car batteries made me giggle! Your other stories, too.

So your mom was also from a dysfuntional family. Sometimes I wonder if there is any other kind! When I was a kid I used to read the Bobbsey Twins books. There's a lot better children's books out there (I read them, too) but I think the appeal of the Bobbsey Twins was their uncomplicated, innocent, fun-filled lives, with parents who were endlessly patient and always there for them. I used to say to my mother: "Why can't you be like Mrs. Bobbsey, Mom?" I don't remember her response, but I have a better idea of the answer, now!

Yin to Yang...I can see how my parents matched up, too. Neuroses meshing. I think that's true of many relationships. We are often replaying stuff from the past with our current partner.

Well, I'm glad your father's attitude toward you did change for the better, even if only for a few years at the end. Better later than never, hm? And cool that he taught you how to manage money. As you probably know, money smarts are lacking in many with ADHD. My son struggles with money, too. Maybe you could write a book. "Finances for ADHD's." That is near the top of the list of concerns with non-ADHD partners, It seems.

In fact, it seems you have managed to keep it together very well overall, better than most of the cases we read about here. Maybe it's partly the counseling you've had. I think a lot of ADHD stop at taking meds but I don't think they are enough by themselves.

What do you think? And...I wonder if I ought to advise my son about getting counseling, or is that something he has to come to on his own?

Delphine

What I Think? Delphine

Submitted by kellyj on Sun, 05/15/2016 - 10:28

I think aversion training is very effective....but not the best way to go about it! lol Living in a state of deprivation does teach you how to control your urges for immediately gratification.....only....the hard way by being forces or controlled so you never have the opportunity or chance to have an impulse in the first place! lol Not so good....but it does have some benefits.

In my fathers mind (or Grandmothers mind)....their intentions were good. This I understood. The way they went about teaching you that lesson was more from how they learned it.....tit for tat.

I remember once hearing my Grandmother say...." people who don't believe in Christianity have no moral compass. Without the bible....we would have anarchy." And she believed this. So there fore....you can't leave those children alone for a second because they will be lead to ruin by the Devil (or something like that...I know how she thought) Even if she was not actually thinking it. It can from her beleif in something that wasn't actually happening or real....but proceeded full steam ahead in trying to stem off the Devil...(or who ever that was leading us all astray). In my Grandmother's mind...it was the Devil.

So as the ambassador of all that was good and Holy....it was her job to prevent the Devil from leading us astray. Which was ridiculous. We did/do have free will after all and the Devil isn't making us do anything. (if he even exists? I don't but that's just my opinion)

But her belief told her it that or that was her interpretation of it. And in the same way...my Dad has his own beleifs about these things. As he believed (and said repeatedly) "the worst thing you can do is spoil a child." Which was just a rationalization to excuse is lack of generosity and being selfish and stingy. (which he was)

From that however....I did learn to stem my urges for immediate gratification out of my fathers fear that if I don't take control of this.....he will go out and spend all his money. Which I couldn't.....because I didn't have any to spend! lol

It's all ass backwards but it came out right anyway with the spending habits but......the cost of learning that lesson took its toll on me in 100 other different lessons I learned from that which had no benefit to me what so ever.

Take what you can get out it I guess and make Lemonade out of Lemons, That's how I see it:)

As far as writing a book for people with ADHD.....I'm not sure the way I got there would be much appreciated! LOL

So that was how he taught you...

Submitted by Delphine on Mon, 05/16/2016 - 18:14

...I misunderstood, I thought maybe your dad actually sat down with you on a rare fatherly occasion and shared his budgeting tips with you! Now I get it. I agree, not the ideal way to learn about managing money, but at least you seem to have that area of life under control, unlike most of the ADHD cases that are shared here.

I have been generous with my son. In fact, I've been more or less supporting him for the last four years or so. It looks like he's got a good chance of bringing in some real bucks soon, which is good, because I will not be able to keep that up anymore.

Oh, you didn't answer my question, re whether you think it would be a good idea to suggest counseling to him, or let him come to that on his own. What do you think? Thanks for all that you share!

Delphine

What did our siblings go through?

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Thu, 05/12/2016 - 08:36

Delphine, from my own family history and from that of my husband, I couldn't agree with this more

Violence, like alcoholism, is a family problem. Your sisters were assuredly affected by what happened in your household even if they seemingly weren't.

Each abused child has his or her own private hell living in relation to an abuser or abusers, there's no doubt about that.

But you're so right about abuse or addiction affecting the whole family. My husband by far caught the physical worst of it, but the youngest in his family of origin seems to be the most scarred to this day. It's often repeated in descriptions of children's psychological problems that for kids, witnessing physical, psychological or any other mental violence done to anyone can have as big an impact as being physically hit. I thought I and another sib were singled out for what happened at our house, but it took my brother over 50 years to want to say anything about things done to him. All of which were new to me.

I couldn't agree with you more. I, one sib and cousins in my very large extended family, over the last decade, as our previous family generation with its accounts and history of things has been moving into end of life, have begun comparing our adult notes about "how it was at home" and have found a very widespread in the extended family "blast pattern," to say it one way. Horrifying, to discover that the agony in one household was being duplicated not just in one other household but in multiple households in the extended family, but it helps to sort out what WAS going on in the individual home that hit me in particular....revision of understanding of the past in light of larger patterns of fact than the ones that have only to do with myself is, to me, part of the project of later life, anyway. It's one of the few on-this-earth ways I know of, to begin to make new choices for oneself and take new actions, later in life.

Thanks for your posts.

Comparing notes

Submitted by Delphine on Thu, 05/12/2016 - 05:24

NowOrNever, glad you understand what I was talking about. It is so true that as a child, witnessing any kind of violence, especially in the home, has a tremendous impact. I almost had to develop a certain emotional detachment growing up, to help keep my sanity.

Painful though it must be for you, I think there must be some comfort in being able to share and compare notes with other family members on "how it was at home." Regrettably, that has never been possible with my siblings and I (both my parents have passed). They are a good example of the power of denial. One of my brothers did admit once in conversation that the family was extremely dysfunctional...but that was the end of it. Plus I see him acting toward his wife in very similar ways that my dad did with our mother.

Be that as it may...we can only make new choices and take new actions for ourselves, not for anyone else. It strikes me that the members of this board are generally pretty insightful and aware. We're intent on moving forward in life, rather than being stuck in resistance/denial--and that's the important thing.

Thank you too for your posts.

One hand open to heaven, one hand open to earth

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Thu, 05/12/2016 - 08:45

Have a splendid day, Delphine.

Half empty?

Submitted by jennalemone on Tue, 05/10/2016 - 09:22

ME: The door is broken. Can you fix it?

H: The door is not broken, it works just fine. You are just opening it wrong. You have to hold it up with one hand, while giving it just the right push with your knee and sliding it into position with your shoulder. The door does not need to be fixed. Why are you always so negative? Must you go around seeing only the negative?

This is an actual conversation we had this year. Half empty thinking or higher expectations? If you don't see a problem, then you don't have to fix it. Someone else can just put up with something that might be causing a daily problem. It is the "If you don't like it, you know what you can do with it." perspective....animosity from a different reaction...."You can't make me. You can't tell me what to do.".... is uncooperative.

He could have answered with the truth. "I don't feel like fixing the door. I'm tired." But instead he put the ownership of the problem on to me. as in, "It is your problem for SEEING a problem."

Saying "You only see the glass as half full" is like saying "Shut up. Let me alone. Your needs do not affect me."

I know that this is not always true in every case. But there are people who can re-tell stories in their mind to put a good enough frosting on the truth so that reality is more tasty. And there are people who feel the pain of the reality and strive to fix something that needs to be fixed. I am positive in some areas of life and not so positive in some other areas. The happy place is where people can find friends and people who are happy about the same things and wary about the same things.

H needs to have the garbage sorted with perfection. It REALLY bothers him if it is not right. He SEES the paper label on the glass jar as offensive to him. He cringes if an orange peel goes down the disposal. He is triumphant when he brings the garbage to the dump...a game of how big his recycles are and how small his trash bag is. I COULD say to him. "You ALWAYS see the glass as half empty" when he criticizes my garbage tossing and saying to him...."It is good enough. I am doing good enough at garbage tossing."

Pile Driver.....Right on the Nail Jenna

Submitted by kellyj on Tue, 05/10/2016 - 12:31

He could have answered with the truth. "I don't feel like fixing the door. I'm tired." But instead he put the ownership of the problem on to me. as in, "It is your problem for SEEING a problem."

Picture me right now....jumping up and down stomping both feet on the ground (like a temper tantrum) and rolling on the ground laughing my ass off at the same time. A different version of what Zapp said in not knowing whether to laugh or cry? lol Mostly laughing but not at you.

Remember me saying..."Bullshit, Bullshit, Bullshit!!!!!!!!!" once in another thread? This is the thing that had me completely tied in knots with my wife and I would call her on it every single time!!! With the ensuing argument that caused her to say at the end....that I was a "selfish, prick, asshole and I hate you!!!" For trying to force her to simply say..." I don't want to." "I don't feel like it." " I believe differently than you" "I see what your saying ....but here's why it's different for me." or simply..."I don't like that" "I want this "."I prefer this over that...is that Okay?"

NO!!! Indecision and complete and utter nonsense reigns supreme....And complete and utter denial of the truth. Instead, you get...."your this" 'Your that"...".you you you!!!" instead of simply beginning with....."I feel" or simply saying...."I'd rather not. And then give a reasonable explanation as to why?"

I tried every avenue one could try....but when I finally did the reverse logic 20 questions which only left the truth and no other way out (backed into a corner with logic and reason)...."I hate you....your an asshole....your mean" when it got down to the last 2 questions which only left one answer each time. When it got to the last question which would require..."I feel differently than you"....is when she would come back with all of what I said since she absolutely refused to say the truth or how she felt about anything. Somehow....how she "felt"....was always about ME in some negative light. errrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!

Or....'we" did this"....."we did that"......"we" 'we" "we" "we" "we"....all the way home! lol

Who's this "we?"....you got a turd in your pocket? "WE"...didn't do anything....."YOU" did!!!!

"Your an asshole" More you again. "We" or "You"....in every case. The letter "I"....seemed to have left the building along with Elv(I)s.

Just be honest and say what "YOU" mean..(GOD DAMN IT !!!!!) OMG!!!!! lol

Just having fun with that....I am no longer angry at this any more. This is denial and that's all it is. The truth in this case....is somewhat invisible. Compassionately now from how I have now come to understand this. It isn't lying in respect that she did not know the truth. I really can't see it as lying if you don't know you are in the essence of what lying is. To the "letter of the law" it is.....but you have to see what's underneath it to really see what going on.

If Melissa reads this....I have to thank her again for one tiny snip it...she introduced in a simple response to me a while ago. This has stuck with me and it finally clicked........"they don't know". That is the answer right there. That's the real truth.

This is why I've been trying to say things like..."don't take it in"....or...."don't take it personally"....because it isn't it even though that's not how it feels like to you.... when someone calls you an "asshole" for simply wanting the truth of how a person actually feels about something and what they REALLY want in reality. Instead of "we" or "you" as their only response?

And the truth about me and what "I" want? This drove me absolutely to the point of insanity growing up in my own family who did this and "I"...seemed to be the only one who saw it which left the score 4 to 1....1 being the lower number and the loser in this battle. What "I" wanted and still do....is to be with someone who doesn't do this because of how angry that made me back then. But....this is not then....and my wife is not Them....and I don't have a turd in my pocket so I have no excuses! lol

Not realizing something here that was a poignant moment just you know....when I started pulling my "turd" analogy back out of my pocket....which I use to use with my mother in times of frustration exactly like this ( as a teenager)....was one of those light bulb moments that told me that I better take a closer look at this situation and figure out why that came back into my repertoire after so many years in storage?

I didn't know why I was using it then....but it was right on the money even if I didn't know why? Sometimes those little clues get over looked if you don't stop long enough to take a closer look sometimes?

And the reason why was the denial and the co-dependent way of seeing things from the eyes of the person in denial like this. It's why there is no "I" in every explanation of anything for that person. But now you have to look at the reason why that is....and when you understand why that is....you gain a much deeper understanding of that person and the pain and suffering they feel inside due to their own heart ache and suffering growing up....which is still continuing on to this day and they are completely disconnected to it which is why they can't see the "I".

And "I" was there too and couldn't see the "I" either. "I" can hardly remember any of what I said back then at times....but I do remember what it felt like and that is the most important part in understanding the struggle this is for the person who is there.

Fortunately for me....what I had going for me was I didn't live that way all of the time. I only got that way when I was in a co-dependent relationship. But I had enough times in between to return to reality before it happened again so I had a reference or context to work from so I could actually see the difference. And since I didn't get completely sucked into to this when I was growing up....( buying in and the lonely experiences by myself growing up)...I was able to separate myself from my family enough....to make it through with the "I" still intact.

There is a silver lining and a flip side to every coin. You have to see both sides to see the "I". If you can only see one side and not the other....all you got left is "we" and "you" to explain the part that you can't see? That is...the other half of you.

That's why I always would cringed when I would hear people say "my better half"?

"Looks like you're all there to me......what part am I not seeing?" That last phrase is a huge red flag all by itself IMHO.

But now looking back at what "I" did wrong? What I did was trying to force my wife to see something that I saw and she didn't want to instead of allowing her to see it by doing this another way. I didn't know myself...and that was equally my part of the problem. I have to take responsibility for our fighting since I was a contributing factor.

When my T kept telling me to not react and don't say anything....he knew what he was talking about and the reason why even if I didn't know myself. The proof....is in the tasting of the pudding as they say....and you can't get there, until you do it...that is....until you do your part and not contribute to the half that you don't want yourself.

But I had a really good reason for doing that and that is exactly why you are so frustrated and disillusioned your self possibly? At least the part that you described about being blamed for everything. THAT...really gets old!!

And when my T said to me...."you're being a little self righteous aren't you?"

"NO! She's the one being self righteous and all uppity for not looking at the truth!!" oops

That was my big mistake.

Good post, Jenna

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Tue, 05/10/2016 - 13:20

As a friend of mine said, the problem about living alone is that there's no one to blame the empty ice cube trays on.

Jenna...As Hard As It Is To Do

Submitted by kellyj on Tue, 05/10/2016 - 13:23

Basing this on what I just said about my big mistake?

"You ALWAYS see the glass as half empty"...... "It is good enough. I am doing good enough at garbage tossing."

Think it...but don't say it. Don't say anything. Don't contribute your half to the fight. Leave it...and leave him with what he just said.

But also....don't make what you do contingent on him. That means....if you have a good reason for doing something and not just in spite.....either do what he says...or don't do what he says....and do what you know is right and be ready to back that up. Not argue. Just speak the truth and what you feel and then leave it alone and don't say anything.

He will be left to have to think about that and if he can't argue his way out of what you did and you did it for all good reasons that cannot be argued against.....you actions will speak louder than words and he will be left with nothing except the part he did in silence.

This is so hard to do. This takes a lot of guts and faith in yourself knowing you are right but not having to defend or argue for it. You do have permission to do the right thing....you don't need your H or anyone else to give you that permission. The only person holding you back is yourself if you can't give yourself that permission first. (Nijna Warrior again.....be the ball:)

Yup

Submitted by jennalemone on Tue, 05/10/2016 - 13:31

I have not been actually "speaking" the words I am thinking. I am mostly listening and watching. This morning I read a comic that said: "I gave my husband the silent treatment for an entire week. He commented that we have been really getting along much better lately."

The "Acceptance" Test

Submitted by kellyj on Tue, 05/10/2016 - 16:30

Jenna....just a quick thought that has recently crossed my mind in actually following through with these things myself as you're doing. I don't know if this will help you (or anyone else?) or not...but what I discovered in my thoughts had to do with that permission thing.

I know this is difficult especially in terms of what Brene Brown was talking about with the female shame and that message that you were taught....and to varying degrees....not having a voice is part of this dilemma.

As I have found.....when you allow something....you are actually giving your consent or permission either way. When it comes to those moments when you are getting blamed for something that is clearly obvious what is happening and you get that urge to say something and then you do..... you aren't allowing it or tolerating it.

Tolerating is one way to go about it and still get there but no one likes to be "tolerated". That's getting dangerously close to being imperious and self righteous as I have discovered myself. In that case....you're just grinning and bearing it. I don't think that's accepting it which doesn't necessarily feel all that great. It still leave that feeling hanging on for a while at least.

If you are allowing it to happen....you are accepting it at the same time and that feels totally different. That feels like you are giving permission and your still fine with it even if you don't really like it all that much.

As I thought this through.....you first need to give yourself permission to be this way first....before you can truly give that same kind of permission to someone else doing something on their own terms that goes against what you want? Allowing it...vs....tolerating it. It's all in the way you see the same thing but from a different perspective. Actually not just perspective.....but giving yourself something at the same time.

I've read enough debating here about how to accept and still feel Okay about it. I think it's in how you see it and giving permission first....and then allowing after that...does makes all the difference in the world.

That's different than tolerating and you can let it go and not need to come back or hold it in... It seems to fill the gap in between someone getting away with something that might sting or is hurtful to you....but knowing they don't have a clue as to what they did which leaves you sitting there biting your tongue.

At least that's what I did in my thinking about this and the word "allowing" seems to connect up with giving myself permission to speak up in an unrelated way (not about their trespass )....but later when it's your turn to speak up and you need to give yourself permission to do so and not feel like you are going against one of those many unspoken rules you were taught.

Just a thought?

I "ninja'd up today

Submitted by Zapp10 on Tue, 05/10/2016 - 22:50

and I didn't even know it til afterwards.....and I did it twice! and it was very ...strange...and .....good. It gave me a peek at possibilities...

A week ago I went to a cabin we built at the back of our acreage. I love it there. No amenities or luxuries. I told H I needed to do this.. for me. It put more distance between us and gave me total peace and a freedom to think and just BE. I am taking it one day at a time.....no plans, no expectations of me or anyone else. It's basic no frill living and for me ...it's a long needed break from home. H comes down for coffee.

I am beginning to see that I do have a say in this whole thing....and jenna's one post is what put it into words for me. It is not about H, it is about me and how I move forward in all this with a new found voice.....my voice. While I do plan to move forward with hope I am NOT banking on the outcome either way.....but I know now I will be way more sure and good with who I am and who H is and THAT is important to me. H may not want to address the difficulty his ADD causes too many times in our marriage which means I HAVE to and after the 2 moments today I am seeing how it might be done.....I would have never believed it ....if I hadn't experienced it.

And what you say here J is truly worth trying....even if you don't agree. What have you got to lose?

Letting go of his hand and watching instead

Submitted by jennalemone on Sun, 05/08/2016 - 12:18

...Adults do not need to be "rescued", only children do. Adults may be in dire need, but rescuing is for a child....

This is a major lesson I have learned. Thanks for putting it into words so well. I believe there was some of this going on in my relationship too. I am doing more "listening" now and less "helping" and it turns out I have been in lots of denial myself. I wanted him to be the person I wanted him to be. Now that I have stopped enabling and "helping" him, I am accepting and "seeing" him as he is. I am letting go and looking to enable myself to live my own life.

Jenna and Lulu

Submitted by kellyj on Sun, 05/08/2016 - 18:01

What Lulu said here is absolutely true. This goes right along with another bit of wisdom from my T..."the only true victims in this world....are children since there very survival depends of a care giver to provide for them. An adult....always has a choice. Children do not. That's the difference."

If you read that and apply it what Lulu said....it's a perfect match and so true. What I discovered myself in becoming a rescuer by default...was you almost automatically are an enabler at the same time. This kind of co-dependent dance is somewhat against your will (or by boiling the frog.,...you being the frog in this case)...which means it was a duty....you may not have even signed up for but found yourself it anyway.

In a real sense....you become a victim to a victim using my T's analogy....and as I found myself since this did not sit well, feel good, and caused me to be insecure where before I was not. The only way of it once your in it....is to reverse it by doing what you said.

Enable yourself and regain the power that was yours that you lost or gave away from this dynamic.....or you just gave it away voluntarily out of your own need to rescue. No matter why, how or when.....when you said to me a while ago that you "hated yourself".....I immediately knew why since I'd been there before. When your going against yourself and what you believe is wrong and you do it anyway....that's what happens....you feel powerless and you hate yourself for doing it.

In reality.....there is no need to hate yourself and you didn't do this knowingly....it just happens and you don't know why it feels so bad?

Well....this is what feels so bad and the reason why? The way back out of it is taking care of yourself and getting your own needs met for yourself in a healthy (non selfish way). You never have to wait....and you aren't dependent on anyone else for the things you should be getting for yourself anyway.

The other thing that happens with the person in need of rescuing like this....is forces them (with great outcry and resistance to it )...to finally get the thing that they should have been getting all along for themselves......or not? Either way.....they'll be left with only what they should be responsible for.....and you doing the same thing for yourself. That always feels good and you shouldn't let the person on the other side make you feel bad (or guilt you) back into doing this for them again. They will try.....that's what they do as the first attempt to pull you back in line....which is really.....pulling you back out of line.

That's where you need to toe the line and stay there and not go over. You take that same drug from a drug addict...and their going to have a complete conniption fit when you do....what would you expect....a dozen roses? :)

About That Dozen Roses??

Submitted by kellyj on Sun, 05/08/2016 - 18:24

I just wanted to add something important to that last comment. I think this is where things start to show themselves. I also believe....a person who you pull the rug out from underneath them like this...is not going to respond well as I said.....but a step further. They might go find it somewhere else. Toeing the line means.....you stand your ground and don't do this yourself. That takes some internal fortitude and a lot strength to do. (Ninja Warrior)

As my T faithfully reminds me always in times of self doubt...."don't make anything you do....contingent of anyone else." That's the short version of what I just said. That's where it takes a lot of heart and courage in order to do and not be swayed in the wrong direction. That's the easy path....the hard one is the right one in this case. (so says the Ninja Warrior....so it is written, so it shall be done lol ) Smiling never hurts:)

Stuck without a voice

Submitted by jennalemone on Mon, 05/09/2016 - 14:40

"don't make anything you do....contingent of anyone else."

My T has on occasion wanted to go to my childhood to address some issues. I have always assured her that I was fine with my childhood and that, although religious and devoid of intimacy, it was a good enough one that I could be proud of and OK with....as good as it was for the times and culture. It seemed honest and hard-working ethic with faith and devotion.

But since I seem to have been stuck for a very long time with my situation and just stuffing my feelings and my dreams and my voice, I must go to a place where I seemingly am alright , but I'm am going to go scratching for what might have been not good for me.

Are there similarities among some of us spouses who are having trouble "holding our own" in our relationships?

I tried very hard to be OBEDIENT. How do I know how, at this age, to grow up and stop trying to OBEY old beliefs, old commands, old directives, old warnings of consequences? How is it that I held on to the fears of punishment and the glory of obedience long after I was a child and should have started living by my own intuition and will and needs and wants? To BE a person able to verbalize who I am and BE a person living this life rather than a tool for others to use and misuse? I was TAUGHT to be a servant and to not have any desires for my self.

I had become an adult who still wanted to be obedient. Which is to say, not an adult at all but still a child looking for directions and rescue. Ouch! I hate to admit that. How could I have been so blind and stunted?

I lived my adult life contingent on the laws, rules, direction, preferences, whims of anyone who was giving orders, advice, wishes, directives, or demands.

I did not allow myself to say "No!" to another person's needs, requests, or even my own compulsion to give and care and feel responsible for other's welfare. Not just H but my parents, sisters, children and friends. Sometimes I was aware that I was doing the bidding for people who had less imagination, less intelligence, less talent and less of a moral compass than I had....but I was conditioned to not judge but to serve. Serving and sacrificing = love and devotion - which was the be all and end all.

How did I get to this place and why did I stay there? I am so embarassed that I did not GROW UP and have the difficult conversations where I conveyed the news to others that I would not go along with what they wanted in any situation. I am an educated, thoughtful person but I seem to have had no WILL of my own. I don't even know what it is that I want. I have just wanted to be GOOD. Gosh! I don't know how to turn this around! Anyone been on this journey who can start me on the path to growing up? I know that being a woman in the in the post-war generation came with it the structure and expectation that women were commanded by church and society that we served the family, loved the family, sacrificed for the family. The women around me didn't have the same resources and permissions as husbands and brothers. But I totally missed the maturity boat without realizing it. This is devastating to realize.

I did not think I had PERMISSION to speak or act against the wishes of my husband, my father and mother, an employer, or even the MEN - whoever they may have been - just because they were men....(in a small town in the Midwest that is still going on today! - It's not just me and those days....it is still many and now). I have been on committees and teams at work and civil groups where the men still hold the floor and expect the women to go along with the men's decisions without rebuttle.

Not sure why I went in that direction with this but I am keeping it in this entry to show us and myself how I am probably not the only girl who did not grow up with a strong voice and a strong will in this day and age. My voice is soft....I think the women's magazines told us not to be bossy but to be "feminine"....which meant "Don't try to boss the men around." There were words and insinuations if a woman were to loudly express herself.

So I guess I can see how I got to this place of "speak softly and don't have any stick at all. Just take the demoralizing guff handed to you and smile sweetly". But now, where do I go from here, fighting for my own integrity and voice? I still feel paralyzed and mute.

Jenna..This Is a Good Sign

Submitted by kellyj on Mon, 05/09/2016 - 14:51

Somewhere buried in my posts on the forum....I know I made a post about finding "my angry voice." I was doing the same thing you are discovering....the places where you have no voice. I had found my lost voice in enough places already....to know that there was still one missing when I would blow up and got angry. The loss of that voice was what was coming out when I got enraged and why I came here in the first place. Raging all the time was not a problem for me and never was. I don't have a quick fuse...to the contrary....I usually said nothing or was silent when I should not have been. All that does is build up inside you until it finally blows.

Discovering the emotional lability was a huge in helping me explain why I would only do this at certain times and not any other time. As it is for me....I'm not reactionary and just fly off instantly. This I have never been (or so long ago when I was a child I couldn't remember it)...but in part....that had to do with exactly what you are talking about. If I were to have reacted on my first initial impulse....there were severe consequences that outweighed my impulses to the point....I was terrified to open my mouth unless severe retaliation in the form of physical abuse. That does put a damper on emotionality (rather quickly) in voicing any opinion or possibly dissension which was absolutely not tolerated ever!

Therefore....I never did it...and I never learned to. I had no practice doing it and never learned to express that anger in any other way. In it's very essence.....I had no voice when it came to standing up when one might assume was the appropriate time since....no time was ever appropriate in relationship to the response and consequences I would receive in return. Instantaneous feedback was the back of my father hand and that was the conditioned response not to do it. It worked quite well for him.....not so much for me and this was the results. Conditioned response and no voice what so ever.

Look up operant conditioning Jenna (Skinner). This all subconscious training and it can be undone. It takes a while and some repetition in the same way you got there but.....as it got there....it can be undone too.

Finding your voice is really good practice in doing this very thing. I encourage you to continue with it and I think you are right on track in your thinking here. One step at a time...the same way you got there. Finding your voice first in small steps will do this for you and I think that just step one. You will feel the resistance (the paralyzed feeling of mute). That tells you right there....this is what is happening. All normal....all human responses to the very thing you learned. You can unlearn it too....that's the hard path I was talking about...one step at a time.

You'll know it's working when that mute feeling starts to disappear....as it will when you find your voice and know what to say instead of saying nothing, being catty or snippy and just reacting and breaking down and crying.....or blowing up yourself.....or just sitting in anger for not having said anything. To a certain degree no matter what your H says to you....if you aren't standing up and you aren't saying anything.....that's not his responsibility if you aren't? That's you doing or not doing something based on him and what he does.....or making what your doing contingent on him. Use that if you need to (the thing my T said) to help you do this. It works.

And as I found with the emotional lability.....shutting up until I come down...is all I needed to do first....wait a bit.....and then speak my mind if I need to and when it's appropriate. Reacting ( out of emotion) is never good unless its controllable and it never comes out right when you do that.

What I found also....the reason why I blew with my wife and not before? She's volatile and reactionary herself. I learned a long time ago not to be that way by default as I said....but that left me in the same place I was with some one who could not control their emotions and reacted with immediate hostility and aggressiveness which put me right back where I was except this time....I was not a child any more and was not afraid of getting smacked in the face. I could stand that for just so long before finally I blew my lid. Silence....or pop my top. That was the only two options I knew how to do. The third option (the right one) is neither one of those and finding a different way of doing the exact same thing....option # 3 which I hadn't learned when I should have due to my own personally circumstances growing up which conditioned me to be silent.

Getting hit in the face every time you react will do that to you...it works extremely well if that's the results you want from the person hitting you.

And at this time....none of that is any longer an issue and I can speak up just fine thanks....just trying to perfect it a bit...that's all. lol

Skinner....Operant Conditioning. Look it up.

Psych 101 and Educational Psychology

Submitted by jennalemone on Mon, 05/09/2016 - 15:09

Yup. I had a professor who mainstreamed Skinner. Which is why I recognize it in me.

I was not a child any more and was not afraid of getting smacked in the face.

THIS is what I am trying to get at.....What is it in me that has me afraid? I was never "smacked". It is just inner fear of something else. I really don't know what it is that I am afraid of. I know Iv'e been conditioned, but not sure what the negative and positive reinforcements actually were.

So Funny

Submitted by kellyj on Mon, 05/09/2016 - 16:16

That's exactly where I learned it too! lol Psych 101 ...lol I never know if someone knows this or not so I apologize if that sounded condescending.....trying not to assume and go the other direction either?

And the second time I ever thought about it again was in therapy but that back ground did make it go faster and easier for me to learn. I guess it wasn't a waste of time after all even though I remember thinking..."when will I ever need to really know this?" HA! lol

But yes....it's a fear response that is not exactly connected to what's actually happening (disproportionate). This is so good to remind yourself each time it happens (or when it happens) I found once I could pin point it exactly....was what made that much easier to reduce down to "0".

And too the point....I had reduced it down to "0" except for a very specific set of things coming together and why it so rarely showed up. It took recreating that again before it came out. That's what I discovered and once I did....I worked it down again the same way. It does take a few tries and each time....the time response get's shorter and shorter until you hit "0".

The problem came for me when I was not exposed to it and had no opportunity to practice it. In my case....I get all the opportunities I want with my wife and lots of practice! lol

Having said that in her defense...when I didn't react anymore and just let her go.....that left her with herself and me just sitting there and not saying anything. This time.....silence is golden and was appropriate. And that worked extremely well with my wife in her seeing herself because of the baiting thing she was doing. I know it's just learned in the same way herself from her up bringing.

I found....if someone is using baiting techniques to get you to react ( a specialty of hers which was why I was reacting so much in the first place) and you don't.....they got nothing. At that point....why do it if it doesn't work anymore? lol I think she's coming to the place where she see's this now where she didn't before and that really did change this dynamic and left her with having to find a different approach herself.

Really fascinating quick example of this from spending the week end with her and her brother. He came to visit from out of town....and I just sat an observed how my wife started to falter and become more reactive but only when her brother was around. I had spent enough time with her mother and the 3 of them together to witnessed how all those pieces fell into place in the perfect dysfunction.

Now her mother has passed and is not longer contributing her pieces to the puzzle and when you only have the two pieces without the third one there any more.....how there were moments when there really seemed to be something missing and made no logical sense. I also made a really interesting discovery that when my wife gets with her brother again (when he visits) how she reacts to him makes sense based on him and his peculiarities and issues. This was enlightening since....she does the same exact things with me that seemed completely out in left field until I saw her doing it with her brother which was right in the ball park! lol So unconsciously....when I was looking over my shoulder before wondering....who the Hell is she talking to? And no one else was there......now I see who she's talking to and that makes perfect sense to me now! lol No need to get angry at that and I have no reason to take offense! lol

Hey! JENNA You are not alone!

Submitted by Zapp10 on Mon, 05/09/2016 - 20:31

This is to Jenna regarding ..stuck without a voice.........I hit the wrong post...sorry J......

I don't know if it helps.....I am 61 and what you wrote is ME TOO! I don't know whether to laugh or cry.......I'm choosing laugh......because this is a side of me H has not seen.....while I have seen EVERY side of him......hmmm......I am LIKING this.....think I will stay ......A LONG LONG TIME:-)

I am glad to recognize all you said Jenna. I would not have been happy to have died not knowing...LOL Please don't be too hard on your self.......I LIKE HEARING FROM YOU!!!

Jenna and Zapp

Submitted by kellyj on Mon, 05/09/2016 - 23:08

Ironically....my wife brought something up to me today that is something I had never realized until I heard it mentioned by Brene Brown in her TEDX Talks Video about shame. For me....when she described the differences between men and women and how shame works for both...it was like hearing the answer to a question I had long since giving up trying to figure out since I never understood what I was not seeing? Actually....it's something I couldn't see from the male perspective growing up in the time we did (me 58 ...close enough). The reason I'm saying this is because of my older sisters and how this all worked out for them. I never understood exactly what the problem was....but since all my mother new was growing up with one sister and her mother.....it appeared to me all along... that I was getting some strange message delivered by her that seemed to be understood by my sisters and not me? I was of course clueless but at this point....I think I know why?

And too the point....I was getting that message that you were getting but as a boy (and since my father was AWOL/missing in action in that department)...I rather quickly discovered that my mother could not be trusted to give me any good advise what so ever! lol I rejected that advise as being N/A without actually realizing it since I got most of what I learned from interacting and being around other boys and men (fathers of friends, coaches etc..) who filled in to show me the ropes due to the lack of participation on my fathers part.

When you don't buy in....and sit back and just observe....what I observed was the very thing you are talking about as well as witnessing it with my mother herself. The way my wife said it to me was..."your dreams and hopes of the future (being brought up ) involved getting married and having children mostly which means...."if your going to get a man, your need to behave like XXXX )"

I can tell you....hearing that from my mother but supposing she new what a man wants is like the blind leading the blind. I wasn't buying that for a second since even then.... that message seemed rather confusing? When I heard any sentence start out with "when you grow up you'll......" that's where stopped listening for all good reasons! lol

Anyway....when I heard Brene Brown describe how shame manifests itself completely differently with boys and girls due to this message that was being sent back then...it was like someone just explained the entirety of why I stopped listening to my mother. I thought...no wonder that seemed to not apply since.....I was right....it didn't. That part was clearly obvious.

But it also explained why my sisters bought in and I didn't. (just one reason at least) At least...the message matched the gender and that's the part that I heard and was scratching my head going.."something wrong here...I don't think you know what you're talking about?" And to a certain degree.....my gut was telling me the right thing.

As Brene Brown described it....there are definite mixed message and very confusing conflicted discrepancies in how you are suppose to be when growing up a girl in that era which was already becoming outdated before by the end of the 60's. Shame as she put it for a woman...is a very complex thing. For guys....it's simple....one shame fits all pretty much and that's much easier to identify. That message comes in loud and clear and easy to understand. For girls/woman....not so much as Brene Brown put it.

When my wife heard her tell of this....she whole heartedly agreed. It was the same message she got...and to make a point...the same weird confusing bizarre message I heard but went.... huh? I'm not buying it?????? For good reason I think since it did not fit at all.

But I heard it...and I saw it...and saw my sisters.... and watched my mother....and then got a better version of it down the street from other fathers who seemed to know more what they were talking than my mother did since that message had me completely confused??

So yes....don't be too hard on yourself Jenna....I didn't realize this until I finally heard Brene Brown actually explain why that is? I don't think you are alone at all from the sound of it? My wife would concur as well since she just brought this up again when she mentioned the video.

Thanks J

Submitted by Zapp10 on Tue, 05/10/2016 - 08:36

J, you are proof that men CAN look at things from another perspective IN ORDER to UNDERSTAND....WTH just happened here!? ok ok we ALL need to do that MORE and the world would be such a wonderful place and we could live happily ever after......oops there I go.into fairy tale land LOL. On a more sincere plain I think the frustration of learning about the ADD effect, learning what ISN'T ADD but "learned" from childhood, learning how and how NOT to react/see things,along with recognizing changes we need to make in ourselves because of our own issues coupled with the "daily life" as we see it, adds up to overwhelming proportions. When I look back at my own moments of mass overwhelm and compare it to my H's ADD it saddens me for what he goes through.

Wishing we could have known earlier in our lives the how,why,what of things can undercut the "aha" NOW I understand why I THINK and DO what I think and do and the why/where it came from.

In the past several months spent in self introspection I have discussed with H just a few things I have learned about myself stemming from childhood.( For me it boiled down to "intentional and unintentional" messages I received in growing up. I know there is psych terminology for this but for me ,intentional and unintentional simplifies it in sorting it out.) I can look back at raising my own children and see so many "mistakes" I made with them....all in the name of LOVE. I can also look at H and his family dynamic and what he has said about his childhood and NOW see some of his mindset.

What I am trying to say is I find it enlightening(and yes sometimes sad) when I learn about me.....the why's, what and wherefore's and when I learn the same about H. What is hard to LIVE with is his barely looking at himself for the empowerment to change for all the RIGHT reasons, let alone LOOK at me and understand MY journey. It boils down to the very thing we have been talking about....the delay of learning why we thought what we thought and what was wrong with us to think that?..........H cannot/will not look at himself let alone HIS marriage and the state of it. Here is a selfish thought and I am serious.....What would you(H) miss about me if I died tomorrow? Would you miss ME or what I did? For me...I am thinking it would not be me and if I dwell on it it will break my heart SO I will NOT dwell there. ADD just adds to things IT is not the entirety of ALL that is wrong here.

Have I made any sense? Sometimes, in trying to express myself I feel I convolute things and I really try to be concise. I so admire ones who articulate well.

Yes, it does take time

Submitted by Delphine on Sun, 04/24/2016 - 19:11

Be good to yourself, dedelight. Writing may help with the healing. Keeping a journal of some kind can be very cathartic.

Hugs!

Delphine

thank you Delphine

Submitted by dedelight4 on Tue, 04/26/2016 - 09:20

Thank you Delphine for the caring comment. I used to keep journals and then stopped. But it'sa good idea to start doing that again.

Prisoner in the bedroom

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Mon, 04/25/2016 - 14:35

when you wrote about being affected by the chaos to the point of taking refuge in your bedroom, so you could have at least one space to breathe in, you struck a chord, Lulu. I very much hope that now being in a location in which your soul is not so cramped by the physical disorder and you now are not forced to shelter in one room from it will quietly lead to some peace. You have a lot on you, caring for your son, and sorting through until you see your way forward regarding you and your husband.

On another of your posts in the last day or two, about your husband being unable to deal with your son's migraines and other needs, my partner, I think truly and sincerely, is rather fragile, when anyone, it doesnt have to be family, has a sudden intense need or breakout of emotion. He can talk about it some, because he has noticed it in himself. His response to something like someone crying or something, an altercation on the street is...to either go mute or to leave. He's had some bad old history, from when he was a kid, but I also think there's a real piece of ADHD going on in these moments. He maxes out in the presence of someone having an intense problem. I read someone with ADHD online say once that once he's upset it takes him over, and blows him out of the water for a long time. That doesn't deal with your husband's inability to deal with it when his son has a problem. What about your son's needs, of course.

When I was in labor...

Submitted by Delphine on Mon, 04/25/2016 - 14:55

...with our son, it was difficult...I was on Pitocin (which has been implicated as a contributing cause of ADHD, btw!) to induce, because labor hadn't started a week after my water broke. In retrospect, if I could do it over again I would refuse Pitocin...but anyway, difficult labor, took a long time, I was hemorrhaging etc., and instead of being there holding my hand, his dad was pacing the hall outside, chain smoking. Couldn't deal. I did have a friend who stuck it out by my side, he was wonderful.

Anyway, yes, I think this kind of thing is ADHD related.

Delphine

Sad to read

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Mon, 04/25/2016 - 20:32

Glad you had a friend there, Delphine.

Not That Bad

Submitted by Delphine on Mon, 04/25/2016 - 20:52

I didn't actually feel abandoned at that time, NowOrNever...I could see/feel his overwhelm. Come to think of it, there is a stereotype of men not being
able to handle witnessing the birth process, so it's not just ADHD stuff. My friend was gay, maybe that made a difference. :)

I did have a beautiful healthy baby boy, ADHD and all...

Delphine

Amazingly Insightful..... NowOrNever

Submitted by kellyj on Tue, 04/26/2016 - 09:10

Your intuition is brilliant here. Yes, yes and yes. All the above

He maxes out in the presence of someone having an intense problem. I read someone with ADHD online say once that once he's upset it takes him over, and blows him out of the water for a long time. This I do believe...is Emotional Lability. It is a very real phenomenon that is including (now) as just one of the symptoms of having ADHD. I caught...when Melissa was explaining this to us in her seminar course.....as she said it..."some with ADHD"...which I assume from that...not everyone. This is part of the blow outs or tantrums of anger but it goes a lot deeper than that which you mentioned here about "intensity". Intensity could be used interchangeably with being emotionally labile which means the intensity becomes too great to handle it and you either freeze up from being overwhelmed....or you explode when you can't take it any longer. As I have now come to understand this better for myself (and read up on it quite a bit).....it is the level in which your ability to cope or deal with or manage the feelings of intensity you feel and this applies to other peoples intensity or intense moments of emotion as well which seem to feed off of it and causes a sympathetic or passive reaction or transference of those same emotions within yourself. Without thinking past that last sentence any further....this is the effect of normal mirroring (and or empathy) that goes haywire or into overwhelm instead of relating to it and then mirroring it back to the other person. Instead of being drawn to them with compassion and empathy....the intensity becomes TOO great and you pull back or pull away instead. It's not a lack of empathy or an inability in that respect....it just too intense and you can get easily overwhelmed. The time it takes to recover or come back down is something that I have found with practice and awareness....that you can reduce and even manage once you really start to see this in yourself.

I think truly and sincerely, is rather fragile, when anyone, it doesnt have to be family, has a sudden intense need or breakout of emotion. He can talk about it some, because he has noticed it in himself. His response to something like someone crying or something, an altercation on the street is...to either go mute or to leave. He's had some bad old history, from when he was a kid, but I also think there's a real piece of ADHD going on in these moments.

Brilliant.....you are right on the mark again. As I can recall this myself as a child.....my perception was skewed by my own experience with this. What might have been more out of scale or a little worse in some areas.....seemed or appeared catastrophic to me and was a complete disruption of my sensibilities under what might be viewed as more normal circumstances even if there was more anger and emotion thrown your way due to your own out of control looking behavior.

When you pair that experience and perception.....with the out of scale reactions from other people....the multiplier or exponential effect this has on you equates to the "bad old history" that you mentioned he had as a kid. To say this is all in your mind and just perception is not accurate I think....and that has everything to do with the emotional lability or ..."being fragile"....you mentioned. Yes and yes....on both accounts.

Congratulations.....you get a Gold Star on your report card! Absolutely brilliant! :)

Things Are Improving....There Are Compromises Here

Submitted by kellyj on Tue, 04/26/2016 - 08:52

My wife and I have made an agreement that I'm working extremely hard to adhere to. We have 5 rooms in the house that are off limits to me in respect to doing anything in them that will create a problem or mess things up. I have agreed to keep my messes and clutter contained to my own little personal space which is a side room or den that is all mine and I can do anything I want in there.

This is the equivalent of what Delphine was talking about in her being a prisoner of her bedroom except now....in reverse. I'm the prisoner of my own little room and I'm relegated to it instead of my wife being relegated to the bedroom instead. There is a definite feeling of being a kid again within how this feels to me but that....I have easily recognized as just a feeling of similarity to the past....it has nothing to do with that at all anymore....it has everything to do with not creating this problem for my wife and dealing with this yet....a different way.

The difference? I've relegated "myself" to doing this by choice....no one else did this "too me" or against my will. What I found is...that I can keep five rooms clean and tidy as long as I have somewhere else to go and do my thing and not have to worry about it. The level of what I can stand also appears to be getting less and less as time goes on and if I want to spend time with my wife in the rooms of the house that are the nicest and are clean and neat.....I have to keep them that way and not mess them up. A big part of this for me comes from the fact that I did all the remodeling of my house myself almost exclusively. The time sweat and labor over the years has created the spaces I wanted...just the way I want them. If I want to spend time in those spaces and take advantage of them as I said....I need to adhere to the 5 room policy and keep the environment pristine. Five rooms is just about all I can deal with and I'm still having my moments with those...but mostly....I've managed to follow through and at this point....I feel that I can do it consistently....5 rooms that is. More will come later...all in good time.

In the meantime....I'm still facing all the struggles I've always had with my own spaces....but those spaces are not ones where my wife hangs out and we don't have to live apart or in separate parts of the house in order to do this.

And some day soon as I see on the horizon....as I improve and am able to clean as I go and be more mindful of my clutter and messes....5 rooms will become six and so on down the line. This is a good compromise for all concerned plus it gives me a carrot in front of me to use as my motivation.

My wife and I have made an

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Tue, 04/26/2016 - 12:53

I appreciate this, J.

Like you in your small space, I was crowded by his space habits into a corner of a sofa in the livingroom of my then future husband's apartment. The floors, surfaces, rest of the sofa were, and were always, loaded up, forget the dining room, piles there... I made a 2' sitting space on the end of his sofa beside a reading light and we'd often both be working near each other. I'd keep my work materials around my feet. His stuff filled everywhere else. And when I'd get up to go take a pee or get a cup of coffee, more often than not in the 2 minute absence he had flopped something right on that 2' end of the couch that I had vacated. It was startling at first..... currently I imagine what it is like to have inside of me some kind of URGE TO SPREAD, that works at about the level of "hey, hey! there's an open space! Flop.... I don't know what is in his mind when it 2 minutes max he's dumped something where I've been sitting beside him for hours, but imagining that his Inner Spreader is like a heat seeking missle for open spaces allows me to appreciate that he's a Mystery Man with his own Inner Urges to stack and flop. I can see me in that cartoon as well, Ms Gotta Be Free and Unhemmed in (that's me) going "hey, hey! Where did that space go?!! So yep, I get your feeling cramped.

Being at ease in space needs to be worked out. Right now, we're roughly doing what you and your wife are doing, I'm responsible for the common spaces (like the living room, the dining room...) and for my own space and my husband has two areas that are his to do with.

But as per most of my life, I've got opinions about shared space. I've been in too many houses...you see them in my part of the country maybe, where generations of men older than me didn't and don't lift a finger inside the house...they may do yardwork, but nothing on the inside, and they usually were the breadwinner in an economy that could support a stay at home wife, whether there were kids or not. Even as retirees, they're benefiting from his income record and if he got a pension for his work, his pension. So the Missus, since she was and is entirely responsible for the inside domain, the work hits her not him, he usually also doesn't care about things like what color the walls are, whether or not the mattress needs replaced, and turns it all over to her to do (since he was the breadwinner and she was the housewife until they retired), has painted and filled it with the things she likes

And she has by doing that and by his decades of not doing inside work, turned him into a visitor, and there is NO ROOM for him in the house, except to sit at table, sit in his Barcalounger, and be in bed.

The thing has pink walls if she wants them, and doilies and little glass ponies sitting on the end table. An earlier generation model of husbands and wives in space.

Where is he, in these Old Mom/Old Dad houses? His space is out in the garage. She banishes him to the garage until dinner time/TV/bed. He'll have a radio out there, the mess that he wants, the garage door open, and there he is, while she's in her house that she cleans, cooks in, decorates and rules the space of. He and she moved him out of the house nearly entirely.

J I have a really strong negative reaction to that. I'm not that generation, I'm from a generation or two later. As far as I'm concerned there's nothing in God's creation of the male that results in his hands not being able to grasp a broom or dip into a sinkful of suds. It's not a question of him being educated and her only being able to figure out housework and physical caretaking. A pox on that. I'm from a near poverty family where all the kids hit their first job at 16 and worked, so my attitude is that even if we women overall aren't getting equal pay for what we do that matches what men do on the job, a lot of women now have to and are doing equal work: equal hours, equal dedication, equal commitment to working for $ for the family and so on.

But I also bring that even steven into the home, and I was going to be darned if my future husband was imprisoned, or like the old duffer in the garage, hemmed in physically inside the house like I actually went through for quite awhile, by my Mr. Spreader's class A piles on piles on piles, having only one place in the bleeping place to sit, only one. I'll be darned if our house is going to make him feel trapped so I can feel free. Or vice versa. And yes, we will both work for us, according to our gifts and capabilities but that's anothr topic than space use.

This for us is a work in progress, but I could see that my husband had some kind of stack up, pile up, mix the piles, drop, etc thing, and that I was no fool I wasn't going to make him be what he wasn't in that department. Plus he has an entire lifetime before he and I began seeing each other, in which he either did zero physical caretaking of many things because he was living in his mind and not much in physical reality, and probably as a result of not being given the ordinary training in daily life that happens in families to help kids know how to take care of themselves, or someone in his past, usually paid, did the cleaning, managing, fixing, remembering physical stuff.

Was I by my will going to change something that long and deep in him? No I wasn't.

I'm going to have to run the whole thing, that's OK, he does other things for us, and I'm the one who can't work or think if things are physically crazy, not him, apparently, so its up to me to make sure I'm OK and do the best to see to it that he's OK, on this space thing. Right now, the space is being handled about like you and your wife are handling it, with one extra, that you didn't describe I presume that either she is the one who keeps the common spaces straight or you're hiring that work out.

What I decided to lay on myself, is that we both have the use of the common spaces as well as our individual spaces. That means when something in his work requires it, he can entirely take over the dining room, everything tables floors. And I stand down until it's done. But then he has to clear his stuff out of the dining room, lol, usually leaves some of it behind, and then I move whatever he left behind in his space. I do the same for me. Sometimes I need that dining room table to deal with my work as well....and then I pick up and it returns to being a dining room for us. So I do the pick up and straightening and don't make a deal about it, and am consistent about it. And leave his spaces alone. In other words, our common spaces aren't static. I don't ever expect to clean them up and they stay that way.

Lessee, of our small place here we have...7 rooms plus a bathroom, 2 are his, 1 is mine, we share the bedroom, living & dining areas.

Our kitchen is a mixed room. Part of it he's occupied with his piles of things,...which I don't mess with... and the food surfaces (due to a squalid upbringing) I'm quite vigorous about keeping clear. So I guess he has what 2 1/2 areas of our 7, where I don't pay attention much and I don't care what he does with spreading and stacking. The kitchen is big enough for both spreading/stacking and keeping order to go on. It's one of our favorite places for being together, so it had to receive us both.

It took him awhile to figure out that HE was very welcome in all of the spaces in the house, and started to use them all; it's just that the house can't be taken over in all 7 of its rooms with his piles of things. I can't live that way. Like your wife can't.

But I WANT him to be free in all of the house. I don't want that man banished to the garage thing. And I certainly, certainly don't ever want to go through being imprisoned by piles of things into only a 2' end of a sofa that I went through for a couple years in his place. And I won't. I got a real taste of that and taht's no good for me. You know, I don't think he knows, because on this matter he's not like me, how disturbing it is to my thought, work and feelings, to be tripping over things, losing things, having things fall and break, and so on. As far as I can tell this is my job to take care of, my own wellbeing. J, it's not going to get better as we age, either. There will be a time when I won't be able to do physically what I am for us, and he won't be the one to take on parts of what I'm doing. I need to be a realist about that. That's the time we'll need to hire it out.

He's getting the hang of the some places being temporary spread areas but then getting picked up. Judging from his movements (he's a cruiser, when he thinks) he's feeling at home. He spent the morning in one of our common spaces. Lol and it's a heck of a lot easier for hm than it was when he was living alone, to find his shoes. When I do the scoop of our stuff out of the living room in the morning, I fling mine on the floor of my closet and shut the door and fling his in the Shoe Arroyo, an area on the floor of one of his rooms.

....I agree with a view that seems underlying in your post, that each person has his/her needs and ways of living. I really buy that. There are non negotiable needs to keep sufficient care of physical space that the TP doesn't run out, people don't get sick due to poor sanitation, and there's no endangerment. But beyond that, there are styles. ...lol again, as I was writing this, he cruised by to ask me if I had seen something that he hadn't used for years that if it was anywhere in the house, it was in one of his Magical Forests. Which of course I didn't know where it was, said so and he....skipped looking for that one, he really didn't need it, it turns out, not enough to put on his pith helmet and go in there in his space looking. Lol. He doesn't have to be like me. Some other time I'll tell you about him sneaking small things into my cosmetics/perfume areas of the bathroom. That man has a geiger counter for unoccupied space.

Where it gets bad is if one of the two or two, will NOT adjust to the other, and WILL stay self focused on it all.

First Things...First NON

Submitted by kellyj on Tue, 04/26/2016 - 16:07

"Geiger counter for unoccupied space".."Magical Forest"...'Urge to "Spread/Mr Spreader"...."Heat Seeking Missile for open space" LOL!!!!!!!!!

Thank you for that....as soon as I recover from laughing so hard I will continue to comment! lol

Yes....I understand all of this very well especially the old school ways. Man goes to the garage and spends all his time in there...and the wife cleans and does everything else in "her spaces" in that respect. I think a huge part of the problems that we face are what we learned and we got use to from our beginnings however....I have a few things working in my favor and you mentioned one of them.....

"The thing has pink walls if she wants them, and doilies and little glass ponies sitting on the end table. An earlier generation model of husbands and wives in space. "

To this day....and I'm likely never going to change from this.....I get a visceral negative reaction of nausea when I see anything inside the house the color "Pink".LOL I simply cannot handle it all because your description closely matched the house I grew up in. NOTHING in my home is either "Pink"...or "Blue"....not one towel or shred of paper anywhere!!! lol And I have a definite thing or two to say about the esthetics of my living space as well including the furniture, art on the walls, colors, lighting and interior design. I designed the entire interior from top to bottom and all the colors as well. This was done when I lived on my own....but I have had countless women or friends of my wife's ask me for the color chips, granite names and even had people knock on my door to ask me for my house color and where did I get it....literally from off the street at random wanting to duplicate it on a couple of occasions. It kind of pissed me off when my neighbor two doors down tried to copy me but they didn't get it right and the hue is a little off. lol Serves em' right too. lol

This was my "born with" art talent that I cannot explain or know exactly why I have it? But anything to do with esthetics I will usually have a definite opinion. It's what I did for nearly 36 years in that respect....designing and creating fine jewelry....and I don't even wear any except for a watch...and I don't always wear that either if I'm working on things where it will get in the way or get ruined. If you stop and think about (here's the figure I remember).....86% of all jewelry purchased is by woman and I think that's an outdated figure now since gold chains and Italian "Horns" and "Eagles" and (nugget jewelry too ) have fallen out of fashion currently. Mostly...men just buy watches any more aside from a wedding ring and that's about it. The point is....I don't really even like jewelry all the much....it's the craft and the designing and creating of it that drew me into it. Other than that....I'm pretty jaded and indifferent to it which might surprise you?

Having said that....you'd think women would make better designers of women's jewelry than men but in reality....this is not the case. In the world of designing and making jewelry....the ratio of men to women is about 3 to 1 for designers ( men to women)...and about 10 to 1 for the ones making it and the ones making it are actually doing most of the designing since making it is an Architectural and Sculptural process and involves a lot of aspects about that would be more closely related to being and architect than anything else.

Any time you are dealing with functional 3-D objects...your delving into the world of Algorithms, Geometry, Mechanical Engineering, Spacial Orientation and Negative Space which it seems men seem to gravitate to more than woman in that respect? Just my observation and has nothing to do with why that is or my personal opinion? Plus....forget about your hands ever looking clean and having nice finger nails if you do that for a living. People would always guess I was an auto mechanic since the gold dust and polishing compounds used actually look black on your skin and it gets into the grain of your skin and there is no washing it completely off until you grow new skin. That's the only way to permanently get rid of the black on your finger tips. That and getting it on your face and up your nose at times too.lol Most women seem to find that unacceptable along with the shop environment to go with it.....torches, cyanide, hazardous chemicals etc.... and lots of pounding and noise! lol

Anyway....art and design are part of what I do and what comes naturally and the point I was trying to make is that I think I have pretty good taste to go along with it especially after years of doing this kind of thing in other areas as well. Half the furniture in my house was made by me and custom made for each space to fit exactly as it should for a specific reason.

So to say I'm not invested in these things is an understatement. It matters a great deal to me what my environment looks like and what that looks like has yet to pose a problem or conflict based on what I like "in my space" when it has come to the women I have been with. Almost universally so. The biggest problem I've run into in that respect....is the women feeling like I'm intruding in their "domain" when it comes to interior design and especially....when it comes to things like the color "Pink". That and curio cabinets full of nick- nacks....my second on the list of least favorite things in the word! lol I don't like a lot of "things" getting in the way of the overall design and the entire space and everything in it creates the look....not a bunch of "things" randomly cobbled together and filling up space....... and to "dust". yikes!

And I also discovered this more recently even if I new this before....but I actually "do" have some ADHD sensitivities even though I didn't think I did? Most you hear about are with "light" or "sound and noise". Those are not an issue and I am not that sensitive to. What I am sensitive to is tactile things and space but especially....things on the floor that I trip over or step on. I have real issues with blocked pathways and I cannot stand not to have a free clear path to walk or things brushing up against me or "squeezing" past things which makes having ADHD ...a living night mare for me sometimes! lol I am literally my own worst enemy when it comes to that...let me tell you! lol

So within that last sentence and with my eye for Architectural design.....I have real problems with my environment not "looking good" to my eye and this goes right up against my ADHD issues. I am highly motivated all on my own for those reasons alone. This...I do for myself as much as I do it for my wife.

And as far as what you were saying about the relegating myself ot my own little claustrophobic space and not being free to roam and use the entire house as my own....if you take what I just said about my own personal pet peeves and peculiarities and/or preferences. I prefer to be the spaces I'm so invested in along with my wife so the carrot I was talking about has everything to do with that. When I do my "thing"...it's only for that time alone....the rest of the time...I spend it with my wife in the 5 rooms I designed and remodeled with my own two hands.

And.....I try and do half the cleaning, mopping, dishes etc too.....that...and my wife rarely cooks so the kitchen is more my space because I spend more time using it than she does. Yet....I still have to fight the keeping it uncluttered and that's my full time battle right now.

In reality....I do my share of the house work...and I do the outside too. My wife is the one who does little on the outside but I've done that all my life anyway. As far a physical labor goes....I've got her beat in that department by a wide margin! It comes right down to the clutter and the "urge to spread" for me and which I like less than she does all things considered even though she has a hard time believing me on that! lol

So base on what I said.....I'm an odd one compared to a lot of men I know and I really do have strong opinions about my environment and what it looks like...to the point....that fighting me for things like "Pink" is the only real place where I really dig my heals in! lol (That and curio cabinets with and lots of nick-nacks and stuff of that nature )

Give me Frank Lloyd Wright...or give me death! lol

Now, THAT'S interesting

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Tue, 04/26/2016 - 19:49

You design and make furniture?

Woah, J fascinating. I'd like to see where you make it and what you've made. My dad used to handmake competition long bows. And arrows. I shoot pictures. Or did, until the work decked me. but its still in me.

....I hope with the jokes about geiger counters to find empty spaces, I'm communicating that I adore my man.

Ok, so you're not a man into pink. : )

Back soon

I Was Laughing At Myself More Than Anything....

Submitted by kellyj on Tue, 04/26/2016 - 22:11

not so much your H.....just so you know:) Here's why...... Things I make? Ha!

Guitars (both electric and Acoustic) Ukulele's, Mandolins, Furniture (both wood and metal and wood/metal combination), Jewelry Boxes, Humidors (for Cigars), Metal Sculpture, Jewelry, Machines (for various purposes like CAD/CAM 3d Milling), Specialty Tools ( of my own invention ), Guitar (Tube) Amplifiers, Stereo (Tube) Components (audiophile stuff), Custom Cars (one race car), Custom Motorcycles and specialty parts for Custom Motorcycles and Race Bikes (for friends who needed special components)......you name it....I'll build. And if it doesn't exist....I'll invent it or make one up? Friends have called me either...."Mad Scientist" or "Renaissance Man"....Take your pick.

This is why I need my own space! (and the shop that I had to build to get all of this out my basement as well as the steady stream of materials going in and out of the house) Do I need to say more? :)

PS....hiring someone to do anything? (including cleaning?) This is another place....I have had to come to terms with and compromise in.....with myself that is. But only when absolutely necessary! lol

J, differences in projects

Submitted by dedelight4 on Wed, 04/27/2016 - 11:23

It's great to read in About your work, and also being so versatile. I am amazed that you can work AND do things around the house without making each project into an even bigger unfinished mess like my husband does. He will take credit for the yard or house, whatever, when he didn't do it, I have always done ALL the cleanup, especially the yard, and we have a huge yard. (Despite the crop circles)

My husband comes up with NEW projects all the time when the house is beginning to fall apart from all the other unfinished projects and general upkeep on a house. He called me to tell me he just came up with another new project. (Sigh)

He's broken so many things in the house and blames it on cheap items. He also "builds" things that wind uo so heavy from using so much wood, they cant be lifted.

The saws, paint, brushes, sawdust, winds up all over the floor, sawdust winds up on top of everything and the messes are HUGE. Then he constantly complains that our house looks like a "shithouse". He's the one making those messes. There are broken cupboards, the house is half painted, where walls are half painted, and those are left over from at least 3 years ago. The paint cans are still against the unfinished walls. He gets upset about "other peoples messes" but wont look at his own, I guess this is also part of the denial? His constant excuse to never "clean uo" or not spend time with me is "but I have to work".

Now he is moving his office from the huge bonus room to one of the empty bedrooms, because he's filled up the bonus room and its too messy to work in there, so he's now going to mess up yet another room. It just never ends.

Anyway, I love when you talk about goldsmithing. I loved creating in wax, and making it do what I wanted. (Most of the time lol) Polishing was fun but dirty. We didnt work in silver that much, but it was the hardest thing of ALL to polish and clean up....especially a flat surface. Like you said, the design work is awesome. There ARE more men in jewelry than women, which is interesting. My brother is a fine gemologist and goldsmith, who does wonderful work. I get disappointed with all the computer "designing" that jewelers use today, instead of doing it freehand. Some of them Use the computer exclusively now. I guess it seems to take some of the human element away from the pieces. Lol I do miss it, because it was very fun making your design come to life.

Question: So, it was after you became more aware of your ADHD was when you became more diligent of messes? Sorry if this is redundant.

Yes Dede....The Messes I Always Knew About

Submitted by kellyj on Wed, 04/27/2016 - 13:20

Why they kept happening and why I seemed to never be able to do anything without them was the problem.

Without repeating this again here...if you read what I wrote to Lulu....this might explain why I started so early in doing things like this. It's not unusual to do the things that your H does in building stuff since that's what everyone does when they are doing something like this that they haven't done a lot of before. I just started early and made those same mistakes when I was a kid. (crop circles)

And too the point....I'm still learning how to not do those things anymore and part of it has to do with "your eyes being bigger than your stomach" and putting too much on your plate at one time. This....I've tried to taper off and narrow things down to doing only 1/2 as much as I did before and then finishing them before I move on to the next thing. I think this is a real ADHD trait right there.

On a side note to what you said.....yeah....I see a problem coming with the computer and doing gold smithing that way. If you never learn to do it by hand and only by computer.....your limited and will never get things looking quite right. No mater what I did on the computer....I always touched things up and finished them by hand. The computer is limited in certain aspects that cannot replace the skills you learn doing it the old fashioned way. Having both...is what really set me apart from a lot of other goldsmiths I know. This translates to a lot of the other things I do as well which is how I can do them in the first place. What you learn in one.....seems to lend itself to another and so on down the line. Each new thing you learn....will carry over and even add to what you already know how to do and that just snow balls after a while until you seem to be able to do almost anything.

And I'm applying all of that....to what I trying to do with my ADHD symptoms as well. One skill....begets another. That just seems to be the way it works:)

So yes...skills came first along with messes. Finding out about ADHD was when I finally understood why and what to do about solving the "messes" problem and all the things that go along with it but not before. Nothing changed until I found out in that department. It's why I keep telling my wife....think of me as first grader here....I'm still just learning how?

Obviously....I have a lot of other skills I can hang my hat on so it's not too devastating to my ego to have to admit that I not good at everything....especially certain ones! lol

And the upset lasts a long time...

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Tue, 04/26/2016 - 14:50

Thanks, J. I think I needed to hear again that once that lability gets set off, the ADHD person's perceptions of what's going on are affected.

I once asked someone with ADHD online whether that emotional surge felt inside like a firestorm. He said yes, something like a tsunami.

On this one, it helps that although my husband doesn't say much about his interior, when he does, he tells the truth directly and doesn't deny or hide that he's having his own event. I'm grateful that he doesn't in the situation start gaslighting me that I screwed him up. Or as far as I can tell, gaslight himself that HE screwed up. He knows it's something particular to him, this lability.

It helped me a whole lot to understand that his going mute or leaving a scene that was loud was not that he was chicken...I've never thought that, anyway...but that he was doing an intervention on himself, regulating himself, so he wouldn't get blown by his lability into a state that would have him in mental bits and pieces, test pattern... I think that's what you're talking about when you say, catch it before its turning point.

I somehow am able to keep some activities going, no matter how strung out or upset I am.

For him, it seems to shut more down, for longer.

Coping with other people's illness has always been hard for him

Submitted by lulu18 on Tue, 04/26/2016 - 23:34

As silly as it sounds, NoworNever, it didn't occur to me that his reaction might be related to ADHD. I thought he was just being selfish, childish and clueless. He has never been a support to me in times of illness, yet he has had a ridiculous number of illnesses, injuries, accidents, poor health, etc. These recurring incidents are always emergencies and everyone must drop everything and come running to "save" him. I was shocked when I saw that He could not even be present for his son when he was in pain. As a mother I don't even think about these things, it is a given. You sit, you stay, you do.Whatever you can. The thought that he might be flooded emotionally and choose to leave rather than feel his feelings(most likely fear) rings very true. Of course, as you very kindly noticed, it doesn't help me or our son one bit,even if I understand it. For once, I would like the luxury of runnin away, even if just for a minute ,to be able to breathe for a moment. I never get that chance. Several years ago, a very astute therapist we went to together nailed my husband on this issue. He "confessed" that he secretly thought I was "obsessed" (his words exactly) with our son's food allergies and went overboard to keep him safe.Our son was 8 at the time and had severe food allergies since he was 3. The therapist leaned forward in my husband''s direction and very quietly said "then you need to get obsessed too,and take some of t he burden off of your wife." That startled him, and for a little while at least, he made an effort to remember to carry his epi pen. It didn't last long, however. The stress of caring for our son's needs single handedly while working a full time demanding job has destroyed my health. I must now focus on rebuilding my strength, peace of mind and physical health. This is a daunting task, as I am a much older mom than most who have a 12 year old. But it can be done. My favorite mantra is from a lovely children's book-" I think I can, I think I can..."Yes, I truly am the little engine that could! Thanks to you all for helping me find my sense of humor again.

When its a one-way, not a two-way street

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Wed, 04/27/2016 - 13:25

Lulu, I so appreciate what you wrote. First of all, I want to tell you that I really believe that the stress of caring for your son's non negotiable health needs daily while carrying a full time job and likely doing the major part of the care and worry of where you live has broken your health. I believe it. If on top of it, you've been unbelieved about it by your husband and you've either kept the reality of it to yourself or have not been believed about it by people who wouldnt know because they've never lived anything anywhere like it, dont hesitate to tell your truths...that's one thing this forum is for, in my opinion. Know I'm a believer.

I dont have children. My husband's are long grown. My analogy to your care of your son is eldercare of my parents by myself, with my other siblings completely avoiding getting involved.. in their last years of a long life, my parents' needs, which were imperative and more and more frequent, night and day, isolated me, and wore me down. You're doing so much more than I did, in the stress, attention and putting yourself on the line daily to care for your son. My loss of the chance of having rest, contact with other people, time to take care of myself was gradual until the last years of it, which were the worst on me. You've been on high alert for a continuous 12 years and are still going. I respect you for giving much of your life to your sons's wellbeing. We arent on this earth only for ourselves, regardless of what our limitations and preferences are. I'm glad that therapist said the same thing, directly to your husband.

Your husband's inability to change his ways to carry his son's Epi-pen? For some years I had very elderly, long married neighbors, the wife of whom had always had multiple health problems, one of which was diabetes. She'd had it for 50 years. When her insulin balance would go out off whack,and she'd faint, she had pills in the house to put under her tongue to stop things before she went into full arrest....and he didnt have it in him to go get a pill for her and put it under her tongue, she'd go into arrest, he'd call 911, the ambulance would come, the emergency people would work on her for a long time, to get her back from collapse well enough to load her in th ambulance and he'd just stand there, she'd refuse to go to the hospital, and it would happen again the next month. Or toward the end, more than once a week. What is wrong with this picture??? What does it take to get a pill out of a bottle and put it in someone's mouth??? For decades, he had abandoned her. For decades, she had been bailed out by ambulance attendants and refused further help.

I'm telling that story in place of some of my own Lulu, because you've brought up something serious and real, in a relationship that has ADHD in it, and any relation without it that has it, that when one of the two adults, for whatever reason, doesnt divide the labor of common responsibility, and child care and many worries are common responsibility, it can crush the partner who is left holding the bag. What HAPPENS when the caretaker can no longer caretake?

I love my husband dearly, I want this relation with him all the way to the end, but even in our better situation in which there are no children in the household to raise, let alone children with special needs, let alone one who could go into emergency every day, and in which both of us, not just me have steady jobs, Lulu when it started to dawn on me only a few months before our wedding that ADHD existed at all (my ignorance; he wasnt talking to me about it at that point, and all kind sof alarming new kinds of events were happening that didnt make sense to me), as I cram-stoked everything I could learn to find out what it might entail and what it probably would do to me for the rest of my life, I went into panic. I hadnt planned ever to put myself into a relation of arduous care for an adult who ....couldnt?....wouldnt?? care for me. Its one thing to pour yourself out for a 12 year old with precarious health or for parents who are so elderly that they're beyond being able to care for others, and its quite another for it to be a one way street with another adult your age with a very full mental toolkit and enough life under his belt that he has some capabilities due to having made it through life. I was so ignorant of ADHD, scared at the anger breakouts (we were under stress & he was under still more), things going out of whack. I was scared at what was going to happen to me, on my wedding day, not so long ago. Was I volunteering to.......?

To me, one of the gigantic questions of this forum, that has different answers, depending on each particular couple, is can both partners not just the person without ADHD, or if its a couple both with ADHD, not just the more mature or pluckier of the pair DO TO HELP EACH OTHER. If it's a boat in which one person declines to row for anyone other than herself or himself, refuses to row with the other person and often refuses to row at all, even on his/her behalf, that boat cant be powered forward by the other rower, it just goes in circles and breaks the health of other rower. When it's a one-way street where only one of the adults' needs are being met, it's unsustainable. It can be very unconventional how the two adults divide e their care of each other and putting themselves out for someone other than themselvess...I'm all for that. But it can't work for wellbeing if one takes but doesnt give

I'm preaching to the choir in writing about this that you brought up in your last post to me,Lulu. I'm doing it because I want to end by saying again that I believe you and respect you. You've more than earned any ability to rest better in the place where you're staying. Do let the quiet ends to evenings, etc nurture you... Kudos for quietly and firmly standing up for yourself at work. Your post about that followed by Delphine's great news that poetry was now flowing out of her made my day.

...your husband's handling of himself in relation is his responsibility. Same for J, same for Mihi, same for my husband. Same for me. As I've learned to take different and better care of me, including deciding what I healthfully will do, thought I had to do but dont have to do and what I wont do, things are better between me and my husband. He had to work it out his own way, having his own thoughts about it and taking on his own self discipline about it, before live care of me coming from him to me showed up in the relation. But then I was needing to learn to do what really would help him, not what I guessed help him. We have a long way to go, and we want to go the whole way to the end, he and I. Lulu one of my mental aces in the hole, one that I hope I never have to play in this marriage, but it mattered to me to commit to it, because it was a new boundary that had to do with me being faithful to my self care, was to think over what marriage was as a lived reality, and to decide for myself that no I didnt ever want to divorce this wonderful man with ADHD that I married, but if living with him daily ever became too damaging to me, and I, not, he, not a therapist or my pastor, etc, would know the reality and depth of that damage, I didnt have to live with him. It's not what I want and am working for, but yes, I can get out of the conventional box and live somewhere else while still married to him. What you're doing right now. Believe it or not that commitment to my own wellbeing being more important than a damaging daily life has been a backstop that let me plunge into what was going on at home. Taking confident, adult care of myself...and I'm on such a learning curve about that...has been a big piece of things getting better at home...with a man who is a bright diamond, who wants me, is trying his heart out, and a surprise, given his age, willing like J and Mihi, to go hunt the bear of change. And bag it

One more time: I respect you Lulu.

Speechless...

Submitted by Zapp10 on Wed, 04/27/2016 - 10:31

You have said it so well....it took my breath away. There is a "bottom line".....and it is "okay" to strive to rise above it. Thank you.

I know its been a while...

Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on Fri, 07/22/2016 - 11:06

I know its been a while since you posted this.. and I hope you have found peace since. But for me, I would take that utter bewielderment as confirmation that getting out was the RIGHT thing to do. If after all the time together, and all the work and heartache, if he cannot understand a simple truth of how devastating this really is, you are so much better off moving on in life. When I make a decision to separate from my husband emotionally, every day that he drifts away from me and doesn't even bother to try or put in ANY of the work or even notice me at all confirms with me that its the right thing to do. Not that I am doing it to get a reaction, I am doing it to preserve my soul, and to build my life up to what i want it to be with out the sorrow and frustration that I have experienced these past few years. But its is telling to me, that the end sum is that he really doesn't care, and would be happier persuing "better" in life.

And he is right, so thats what i will do. Persue better for myself.

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