I no longer want to figure out the who, why, or what about how my spouse lives/behaves/responds. I know his brain is ADHD wired. I know that for a fact as we have a professional/clinical/medical expert diagnosis. I know for a fact he didn't know about his ADHD until he was well over 50. I know he has developed many ways of coping with the world - some work well - some do not.
Is there something elso going on? I am abandoing my armchair psychologist position, and letting him figure it out - if he wants to.
What I fear: He will not want to figure it out.
When I am with only my spouse, it can take on the feeling of being in a giant vaccuum bottle, There is Liz and him and nothing else. I see his behaviors that are not conducive to a comfortable partnership, and he sees that I have changed . . . . and those changes have caused the way we worked - to no longer work.
I am carefully looking at my old behaviors - yes SOME need to be looked at and re-evaluated, and see where I made my mistakes. No regrets, just seeing things for what they really were.
Concessions are a good thing when done in balance. When concessions are done to continually keep someone else happy, then it is time to try to figure out why I am playing the "peace at all costs" game.
It is really difficult for Liz to get and stay in a place where my spouse has to decide he no longer wants to live as he is living.
What I fear - he is going to choose to live as he is living. I hate that for him, and I hate that for us.
What I can do is something about me, my choices, what I can live with, and what I cannot.
There are indeed many things on the 'pro' side of our relationship:
1. Our children love both of us. Our daughter is 23 and just disolved her one year marriage. Our son is 26 and is a partner with his dad in our construction business.
2. Neither of us have had an affair.
3. We do not call names - never, not ever. A family rule which I enforced: NO character asassination, not ever.
4. Neither of us drink alcohol. Never did.
5. There is no illicite drug use,
6. There is no gambling, lying. cheating or stealing. Never had any trouble with the law.
7. Never any physical violence or abuse.
I have started so many comments to so many posts here, and then realized that I was droning on and on and on about the same old stuff. That is just not doing Liz any good at all.
What is it that digs so deep at this man, and causes such pain when there is any conflict. Redundant. I do not know. What I do know: it is not pleasant to live with.
Life, to Liz, is having the tools to deal with everyday occurances, and learning work through them so we are both satisfied.
Trying to reach a point or place of 'no conflict' will never happen. That is utopia and it is not real. I know that. What I fear: my spouse will not accept that truth.
Liz
"What I fear: my spouse will
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
"What I fear: my spouse will not accept that truth."
Do you fear that your H will be told about a comorbid Dx and not accept it?
Likely, he wont. That's typical. Many professionals wont' even bother to tell their patients about the other Dx's, such as BPD, NPD, etc, because they know that their clients won't accept those Dx's and likely will discontinue treatment.
It's "safer" just to tell a client that he/she has ADHD or even OCD. The other Dx's are just too "insulting" in their minds.
No, not quite
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
OverwhelmedWife,
It is a very complicated/difficult situation.
Denial that he needs any help is strong. He really believes the problems lie in everyone else, myself included. And after all the 'thousands of dollars' we have spent on counseling of many sorts, and all the changing he believes he has done, all he sees is I am dissatisfied. He told me he cannot be what I want so he is no longer willing to try.
Walls of defense are impenetrable. He shuts everything down with anger. That is not a pleasant atmosphere for me to live. As long as he is not challenged on anything, or asked to do something differently than what he thinks is best, he is happy-go-lucky, and appears to be Mr. Friendly. What goes on behind closed doors, or on any deeper level of relationships is a horse of a different color.
I will stop at that, because my focusing on things he chooses not to see, only get me drilling myself into gloom.
I can only work on me. Living in the complication is what I need to change.
Liz
i can really relate to what
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
i can really relate to what your saying. My marriage to my husband has all of the great qualities that you listed about your marriage. However, we both have a lot of hurt in our marriage that is a vicious cycle. It goes like this:
me: our relationship went south when you started ignoring me.
adhd husband: I started ignoring you because you were angry at me.
Me: no, you started ignoring me first. That's why I became hurt and angry.
Adhd husband: if you weren't angry at me I wouldn't ignore you.
And around and around we go. It never stops. I have a lot of hurt and anger from being ostracized from my own marriage for two decades. He has put up a wall from years of my hurt and anger. We can't break the cycle.
i know that it's very hard to abandon a marriage that is technically so good. Outsiders just don't understand the emotional struggles that eat away at you, little by little, day after day.
I wish I had some advice for you. I just wanted you to know that I understand your situation and I sympathize with you.
"I understand your situation and I sympathize with you"
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
Hopeful Heart,
I appreciate that! After attending a Retrouvaille marriage weekend earlier this year, I finally felt 'not so alone' as I was surrounded by many couple with struggling marriages, all with the goal of making them better.
Probably the most frustrating thing I hear in any part of any sort of therapy is "That is in the past. You can't do anything about it."
I have not yet figured out how to apply that to my own life. We had a counselor ask us to explain how we met. We each shared our stories. Then he said something along the lines of ' those people are gone. That is the past. Forget about that.'
It felt like I stepped into some sort of trap. He was listening intently as we shared how our relationship started, then BAM!!!
We are our history. It has built us and developed us. I didn't just "appear" here as I am. I grew up, we met, we dated, we married, we had children.
There are lessons learned. Habits formed. Some are difficult. After dealing with someone being late for years, it is most difficult to erase all those time, and start over. Because when that person is again habitually late, there are reasons why our brain goes to all the old behaviors. And the 'new' history is they are habitually late.
I surely am missing something in this - and someday I hope I understand. There needs to be acknowledgement. And there needs to be room for me to not feel like a dummy who once again stuck her hand in a boiling pot of water because she did not learn . . . . . .from her past. Gosh. Boggles my mind.
Liz
call his bluff...
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
>>>
me: our relationship went south when you started ignoring me.
adhd husband: I started ignoring you because you were angry at me.
Me: no, you started ignoring me first. That's why I became hurt and angry.
Adhd husband: if you weren't angry at me I wouldn't ignore you.
And around and around we go. It never stops. I have a lot of hurt and anger from being ostracized from my own marriage for two decades. He has put up a wall from years of my hurt and anger. We can't break the cycle.
>>>
Call his bluff.
Simply say, "Ok, I'm no longer mad at you. I've moved past my anger. So, now you can stop ignoring me."
Ball is now in his court.
If only it were so easy.
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
Liz
Liz, It Isn't Easy
Submitted by kellyj on
But it is possible. What you said in your last post that you are missing something in all of this is not your fault or not something that you have any way to understand until you learn to understand it. The problem is that you have no reference to this yourself (no basis anything you can go off of to use to try and figure this part out by yourself. That's the hardest part. Once you can do this.....it get's much easier to understand after that in an on going basis but you will have to change how you see your H and your relationship to him in order to do this.
I think I have found the word or concept that I have been looking for to describe what I have come to learn myself but have not been able to pin point it exactly until just recently. Acceptance is part of it, but it by it self is still missing something in how I actually feel.
I took this from something I have been reading and I plan to make a post about my thoughts on this later......
Resignation...what is it? It is the most comfortable position an invalid who, having tossed and turned in torment in his endeavor to find it, at last grew tired of this tossing and turning--and therewith found it.
Freidrich Nietzsche
I think you have to have acceptance first before this can happen (cognitive knowing and realization).... but resignation I think is the act of surrendering to yourself. This is the comfortable place that I think that Nietzcshe was talking about.
Knowledge, Understanding, Acceptance and Resignation.....in that order. After that I think reality is not such a scary or difficult thing to deal with an accept. I think resignation is the opposite of abnegation (self abnegation) which is the path that most of us seem to fall into in an effort to stay the same (not change) but not actually resign yourself to the fact that there are some things that you cannot change and will not change no matter how much you want them to. I think acceptance alone falls short in doing this ......possible the final step beyond acceptance?
Sounds like nice words but I will also agree with you that it is easier than it sounds to do this. That doesn't mean it isn't possible and you should not keep on trying however:) Resignation in this case IS NOT giving up in the real sense of what this is saying. Giving up MEANS you haven't resigned yourself yet and are still fighting against it. If that makes any sense? :)
J
Oh boy, when I see myself, I wanna kick my own butt
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
Gosh J, I was looking for a quote this past weekend, and I did not find it. But, hoo boy, did I find information that made me stop in my tracks. Literally.
I clearly, and definitively saw myself, and all I could do was shake my head in disbelief. Then, I was reading your post, and this line:
Knowledge, Understanding, Acceptance and Resignation.....in that order.
Huzzah!! Yep. I get it.
Let me start at the beginning of this weekend. I was looking for a particular quote on triangulation that says something along the lines of "The only way out of the triangle is to allow yourself to remain in the persecutor position." My own understanding of that quote is: Liz needed to learn to 'not give a whit' about others' judgments of me. And so, as I worked on Liz, I kept my own bit of peace by knowing that other's were at there house disliking me, and being upset with me, yet I chose to remain comfortable in my own skin, on my own little ten acres of property, enjoying myself without being in the midst of the drama where everyone was disliking everyone.
Make sense?
I am comfortable in my own skin. In my humanness I feel the pricks in my flesh of others' judging me, yet it no longer has the power to destroy me, and I can shake it off.
As a person who assumed the scapegoat position for years, it took me years of therapy to get out. My own position there developed over my first 20 years of life, growing up in a home with an alcoholic father, 2nd oldest of 8 children. For Liz, I developed bulimia and anorexia to deal with my issues, so yes, indeed, I literally had to 'fight for my life' for the next 20 years. I truly believe that at age 40 I could declare I had beaten those eating disorders. I value myself. I love my gifts and shortcomings - they are me :) A nice victory I have been enjoying for the past 15 years.
Imagine my chagrin/horror as I was searching for that information on triangulation, when I realized I had, on and of, been STILL playing that game, by being in the persecutor and rescuer position.
I truly do love my spouse. Alas, I really cannot rescue him. My own choices have been wrapped in my OWN understanding of myself, and how wonderful it was to get the knowledge I have - oddly enough by believing Liz was rescued by her spouse.
I had been thinking along the lines of "My spouse rescued me, so I want to return the favor/blessing, and rescue him."
Sheesh. It just does not work that way.
I am trying my best to stop condemning myself, and gain wisdom from my mistakes. I mostly have a difficult time dealing with people who get angry. Confrontation is very difficult, probably because I do not have enough tools to do it. Each and every time - even last night - when I try to address any form of conflict with my spouse - it turns into a cat and mouse game. Nothing gets resolved. He gets angry. I get exasperated. And then it is sit and wait for the next round.
My difficulty is getting near my own issues/feeling/pain. I wanted TO BE HEARD, and VALIDATED, and ACKNOWLEDGED. I didn't realize I was stuck in that triangle dynamic. I indeed know my spouse has unresolved pain. And it seems, in my own judgment of him, that he holds onto hurts, and even nurtures them, wrapped up in the pain of "Look what THEY did to ME....."
I do NOT know how to have a conversation around conflict, have my own feelings validated and acknowledged WITHOUT feeling as my spouse's pain trumps any and all of my feelings, because he is in so much pain that his pain is much more important, and how dare I even HINT that his is anything but a kind loving soul.
What I do know is I am having a very difficult time, living in the same house as my spouse, trying to untangle this dynamic, be strong and love myself, yet keep myself protected from what I see and feel as his anger and pain and judgment of not just me, but the world at large..
Liz
.
Jumping Ahead of My Other Post To You...
Submitted by kellyj on
My experience with what I think you are describing was really fascinating and stressful at the same time. Our weekend at the beach with a person that is wound up with so so much internal conflict was really telling. It was so palpable you could cut it with a knife. The entire time we were there....the tension and stress that my wife's friend put out (as well as the projection, criticism, failed attempts at control, her successful attempts of control, her denial of herself, her complete unawareness of others's boundaries and all the accusations that go along with this) was becoming infectious and at different times during out 3 day stay together.....each one of us at different times either snapped at this person in anger or was maneuvering themselves (physically away) from her.
Her internal conflict was rubbing off on my wife, her brother and myself to the point that all three of us were becoming cranky, irritable and stressed out despite our best efforts to try and keep things light and easy. Light and easy was not in the program! lol
And as soon as her friend left to return home (to a different town).....it was like someone flipped a switch and the tension that we were experiencing dissipated rather quickly. The part that I began to recognize during this process was that Dee, seems completely oblivious and rather indifferent to any of this....to the point that even when someone snapped at her.....she either didn't get it or she appeared completely indifferent which only ramped up her behavior even more.
At one point in time....I was resting comfortably on the couch reading a book and Dee came up to me and hovered over me (about 2 feet from my face) and started to talk about herself (I don't remember....I wasn't really listening lol ) and continued to stand over me while talking away for almost 15 minutes until I finally got up and left the room. She then preceded to walk over to my wife's brother and tell him how he needed to take better care of himself and started lecturing him on nutrition and advise on diabetes (which he has) which she knows nothing about herself ...basing this on seeing how he was eating (on vacation that is)....which is not how he eats normally but was making an acception at an acceptable yet not recommended risk. It was his decision and he knew what he was doing at least. She preceded to piss him off so bad when she wouldn't stop intruding in this way that he had to leave the room and go for a walk outside. She then preceded to wake my wife up from a nap she was taking to talk to her and piss her off some more. The reason why she went into another room to get away from Dee. lol
This seeming complete disregard to what we were all doing at the time compared to what she wanted to do (or needed) appeared to make no difference to her and what she wanted to do.....that is talk about herself that is! lol It was so weird to watch her stand over me (in my space) while I was still holding the book I was reading in the same position while I was looking over my reading glasses (obviously in the middle of reading something) and never put my book down the entire time she was talking. I finally had to actually physically get up and leave the room (as did her brother) to break free of this or else it would have gone on until she was done talking about herself....which was pretty much non stop for most of the time we were all together. All roads and conversations lead to one destination.....her.....non stop.....all of the time! lol You could feel the vibrations and disturbance in the :"force" whenever you tried to change the topic of move it off of something else instead.
My wife even said that she wished she could whistle so she could at one point and she did this while Dee was still talking away and didn't seem to understand the comment or even notice that my wife said anything while at the same time.....would criticize something that either one of us or someone else that she knew had done at some point in time. It was like she saved up all this negative energy and decided to use this weekend (and us) as the focal dumping ground to get rid of it and it didn't appear that it really mattered who she did this with as long as we were there in the same room and breathing.....she was pretty indiscriminate as long as you were awake and moving. lol
And in my wife's case....she woke her up when she ran her brother and I out of the room! lol It was really bad! The three of us were all on nerve just waiting for next criticism or negative comment thrown our way and we were all edgy and uncomfortable and were looking for somewhere to hide so we could get away.lol
As soon as she left.....we all breathed a sigh of relief and immediately began to calm down and feel the stress disappear.
J
Okay Liz....I'm Going to Make a Stab...
Submitted by kellyj on
at answering the "why is this happening" question? It's a big one and really difficult to try and explain. I've been looking for ways to do this for a while and this weekend I got my opportunity.
My wife and I had a short vacation at my sister's beach house and my wife invited her brother and one of her friends to come join us. Nothing like being stuck in one small space with someone who has the apparent ability to rain on everyone's parade and do it without having a clue. I'm talking about my wife's friend since this is exactly what she did. She was a one woman wrecking ball with a single mission.....search and destroy! lol
In an effort to get to the point here and not make this a novel.....I had noticed a few instances being around her friend (I'll call her Difficult or "D"/"Dee" for now) in the pas but I haven't had this kind of opportunity to see this play out over several days and how it affected everyone there (including my self). My aim is to try and move away from diagnosis like NPD, APD, BPD or any of the others in this category and try and put this into laymen terms only to say that people (including me) can have moments of selfish behavior at brief times in sporadic ways ( here and there...off and on ) with no real consistency and more likely.....attached to something else that is going on in your life at the time. I think this is normal for everyone but more importantly.....it's not the norm even for you to be this way all of the time and never seem to break free of it or change. I think this might be the definition of a pathology or pathologic behavior but that still doesn't me you have to be disordered or completely dysfunctional to be this way either.
What that means however.....is that if a person is like this.....they may be a fine good person on most levels but....this one aspect about them (or their personality) can make a person extremely difficult and problematic to be around. This is the "somewhere in between" being a diagnosable individual and one that is just a chronic pain in the ass to be around. I believe Dee is one of these individuals and I got a really good glimpse of this after being around her for 3 days solid without a break. Oooey! lol
So....here's my attempt to pull this all together and tell you what I saw (and experienced). For the sake of argument....I want to recap a few concepts here and use a few new references like the one I just used for you in my last post. It helps me describe these things in simple terms whether they are 100% agreed upon as psychological medical fact or not. More importantly.....it really is lining up with exactly what I am seeing even to the point of predicting these things ahead of time once I begin to see the pattern. At this point.....I can't help NOT see these thins which is mostly good and only sometimes disheartening. Disheartening since it still effects me and makes me sad, angry, hurt and disrespected in these interactions but at the same time.....I have to relinquish my feelings to what I see and I really never like or enjoy doing this with anyone. It still makes me sad to have to do this is what I am really saying:(
First....the concepts. These are more philosophical ways of seeing things but I think they do a good job. The idea that people are born into a conflict within themselves is an interesting one. Schonahuerian thinking is that we are in conflict with our will and our ego. Fruedian thinking says that the infantile ego or primitive Narcissism wants to return to the bliss and oceanic plentitude of being connected to the mother physically until birth and then after birth through the symbolic bond or Nirvana or bliss of this natural state of fusion between mother and child. Christopher Lachs theory is that our ego has a mind of it's own that only yearns or longs to return to this state of bliss through the ego which is only satisfied in terms of the libido in purely self serving ways. Lach states in theory "that the infants discovery of it own helplessness that obliges it to recognize the "not me world"...and this reluctantly begins its reluctant departure from it's original undifferentiated symbosis with the (material) world. Because this relationship antedates the sense of distinction between self and the outside world....it has no knowledge of death and therefore remains indifferent to it's own extinction." Lach suggests that the need to overcome the pain of this original separation and abandonment can be so overwhelming that it can relegate this pain to the ego in pursuit of the return or regression to the original state of bliss it experienced before.
In Freuds Nirvana principle, originates in this primary Narcissism with and illusionary state of everlasting life and a return or regression to the contentment of the womb and bond with the mother which is free of the tension and striving and rejects the objects it find in the material world and therefore "hates" these objects as they are in conflict and competition with the ego (stand in it's way) of regressing to this blissful state and move away from this original pain of separation. In it's effort to do so...the ego oscillates between malaise and melancholy (depression and mania) in it's failed attempts to do this. Freud introduces the concept of self abnegation as an agency that denies the ego the ability to move past this pain and tension in this vacillating pursuit of and freedom from pain and tension.(or avoidance) This is all in the egos's effort (and conflict) from moving past this primitive Narcissism to a sense of separateness from this fantasy it seeks (the pleasure principle) and avoid the pain in order to do this. In theory.....a person with a pathology with Narcissistic behavior is in avoidance of pain and separateness and seeks only the "oceanic plenitude" or original bliss or Nirvana of the undifferentiated self and the material world in which we live. It rejects the material world (and objects in it) and therefore hates them for what they represent. This is fueled by memory traces of this original Narcissism and uses a variety of magical fantasies and self abnegation ( denial of pain of this separation of the self) which is only trying to recover and is seeking to achieve this regression to it's original state.
What this is saying is that we all have to go through this porthole of our ego or self at some point in time. The painful separation of our self serving ego to become a separate autonomous individual that is aware of it's own mortality who no longer seeks to regress to it's original state and finds the ultimate bliss of being free from yearning, seeking and the avoidance of the pain (which oscillates back and forth between melancholic malaise and mania....anger/hatred/ pleasure and exhilaration) by experiencing this pain....moving through it, becoming separate from the ego and it's self serving motivations to finding the inner peace that this brings you.
The self abnegation (the denial of being separate) only serves to re-ignite and fuel the egos own never ending quest and avoidance of moving into the state of conscious separateness and the real bliss of living without this pain, fear, hatred and rejection of the (material) world and the yearning and seeking of this unfulfilled self (the original primary or primitive Narcissistic self).
So in short......everything the ego doesn't want (goes against the ego's will) is exactly what you see it rejecting, projecting and being blamed on you or the outside world in it's thwarted efforts in trying to do this (which the ego also resents and ultimately begins to hate these things that stand in it's way) In other words....all of this gets manifested externally by projecting whatever the ego doesn't want or doesn't fit in this pursuit of self satisfaction and the created fantasy or magical thinking that goes along with it. This is what you see and the results of this internal process that goes on completely unconscious to this person with no ability to even begin to see any of this or make that kind of differentiation for themselves and let go of the egos self serving state and experience the pain of separation of the self and then the bliss or release of this internal conflict and tension to a state without pain, wanting, or yearning for anything from the material world.
C ur self would use the term "carnally minded" or in search for "carnal satisfaction". Works for me since it's saying the same thing.
So....what I observed in my wife's friend Dee, was a person who needed to be over you in some way. Better than you, more correct than you, knows more about any topic than you, one up you if you have something that is special or you like (hers is better) and projects all of her own insecurities on you in some way. Here's one good example. We decided to go out for dinner one night and since we were at the coast....I decided to have fish. A good choice all things considered. In my case, I am one of those people that everyone hates. I can eat everything (and do) and not have to watch my weight. This is genetic by the way. My mother was the same way. This is my revenge for being a scrawny skinny kid who was smaller on average, than other kids until I suddenly sprouted in my late teens. I paid my dues in other words. lol I am fortunate to have at least a few blessings to go along with everything else and the last thing anyone would use against me as a criticism is pointing out that I am over weight (which would be kind of a joke). So when my food arrived at the table....before I had a chance to take the first bite, Dee says "ooh...that will make you fat." I'm thinking....really? Not so much. These comments just spring out her mouth at all times...everywhere, all the time. I looked over at what she was eating and it definitely was a weight conscious meal. She is not over weight but I think she really needs to work on it to stay that way. I'm thinking to myself in the moment....."I get it....she can't eat (or won't eat) what I am having but she wants to and so instead of saying that or saying "that would make me fat" she projects that onto me and my food. Now if I had been my wife and she said the same comment....she might take that to heart and feel guilty about her order and not enjoy her food because of the same comment. In my case...it had no effect on me other than me noticing what was happening. A little while later, Dee asks me if she can have a bite of my dinner. "Sure, help yourself" I said. She takes a bite and says "ooh...that's dry." Thinking to myself again, thanks for telling me that..I would never have noticed without your help in pointing that out since I have never had Halibut before in my life. I responded by saying "Yeah...it might be a little over cooked but it's blackend and the ends where you took your bite might be a little dry however....the center and the rest is just perfect." She responded to me saying "Oh no...it's dry...I can tell by just looking at it." Now I have to Fuck with her.....it's just too easy and I am already worn out from the same things happening all day in every other situation....it is my PA coming out but more not to get even.....but just because I can.(this is my issue by the way....it's not a good feature of mine and I am working hard to limit this as much as possible) but, at the time....you've got to find some enjoyment out of a bad situation I'm thinking, right? lol I responded back to her saying "well....I actually prefer my fish to be a little on the dry side especially when it is smothered in shrimp and sauce like this is. It kind of counter balances the consistency of the entire dish." No response. That was the end of that one. One of literally hundreds of shitty comments and statements made in a way that is aimed at somehow lowering what ever you have, what you like or that Dee likes better than her own. It's like a person like this sits up on top of the roof looking over you and takes pot shots at you and everything you have while the whole time telling you how great it is to be me sitting up here shooting at all of you down below. In it's essence....this is what she does in a metaphorical way.
I could go on and on with a list of situations like the one I just gave but the point in doing this is to say that when a person is like this and they do this consistently at every turn in the road....they bring you down and everyone else around you. This is not a conscious decision on their part but....whether they realize it or not....they are in some way...making themselves feel better by doing it at your expense. This is what they do and it only serves them to do it and it is done in a way that they always have an out or an excuse to use to excuse themselves for doing it.
I do feel sorry for Dee since she is not a bad person and is genuinely troubled by her life. She spends a great deal of time talking about her trials and tribulations but at the heart of all of this is that she truly cannot see where the problem exists. She doesn't realize what she is doing and how this is affecting everyone else but...the one thing I do know that she is painfully aware of is that she is alone and without anyone who wants to be with her. All she has is a string of failed relationships and the stories that go along with it. Of course.....as you hear these stories......it is always what was wrong with the people she was with....never what was wrong with her.
J