For several years, I have suspected that my wife may have high-functioning Borderline Personality Disorder. She has an official diagnosis of Bipolar II and is taking mood stabilizers--but not at the dosage that the psychiatrist recommends.
Recently, our daughter was diagnosed with ADHD. I started reading some information on ADHD in marriages and suspected that some of the negative behavior might be ADHD rather than BPD.
Here are some types of behavior:
- Making promises that she can't keep (offering to pay for things, for example) or does not keep. Or perhaps could keep but they make things difficult for other people. For example, she invited her friend's mother to stay in our hotel room during a recent family vacation--without asking me or the kids!
- Sabotaging plans that she has made--Saying she wants to have sex, for example, and then declaring that it is "family movie night" so we stay up late and do not have sex. Or she just gets wrapped up on the internet, tv, phone, etc. and does not follow through. This is extremely frustrating for me because it often causes me to waste a Cialis pill--insurance only covers 4 each month.
- Blurting out hurtful things and then claiming she is not inconsiderate--she just does not think about my feelings! "That's just the way I am." At a bar mitzvah, for example, she asked how my diet was going when they lifted the kid's son up on the chair. Then she had the nerve to ask me how she could express concern over the mother's health without offending her for being overweight! Or waking me up to tell me her mother thought I looked "bloated." Or telling me that I needed to lose weight--in the middle of sex, while I was having trouble breathing because she was lying on top of me.
- Blurting out awkward things--I was warned her that a colleague's dog was known to bite and she should careful around the dog with our then infant son. She then blurted this out to the colleague--someone who helped get me the job and could have had influence on whether I continued in the position.
- Volunteering me for things, particularly with our kids. One time, she told her friends that "we" (mostly me) would make a whole batch of homebrew for them--without asking me! Then they assumed I would do a second batch for them. (I know, I should have drawn boundaries.)
- Being unable to end an argument. It may be getting the last word in. Or she may lose sight of the reason we are arguing (OK, I know that you want me to clean the bathroom. Just stop arguing so I can clean it and I will do it now! You are preventing me from doing the bathroom.) Or she may just not accept victory as an option. She told me to stop reading a comic to our daughter because it was "innappropriate." I stopped and said I was sorry. She kept hammering on me in front of the kids--"I don't want you to say you are sorry. We have to be on the same page."
- Claiming that I do not "back her up" with the kids, but I do not know which "her" to back up. She decides (without asking me) that our son can't play video games the rest of the day. I spend several hours saying "no" as he pesters me to play. And then, without asking me, she decides to let him play.
- Rapid escalation of punishments for the kids, often unrelated to the problems. Then back-pedaling.
- Redirecting anger from the kids or others onto me. The kids got into a fight at a rest stop while I was getting coffee. She took over driving and started yelling at me about how I wanted to go to a restaurant we could not afford--but she is the one who suggested the restaurant. I had merely said, "OK" This was a horrendous fight that led me to make a marriage counseling or divorce ultimatum.
- Lots of interruptions. I do human rights volunteer work, for example, and it involves reading a lot of Spanish-language material. I will stop to talk with her and then resume reading when I think she is done. But then she starts again. And again. And again. 20 minutes later, I am rereading the same paragraph. This was really bad when I was doing my dissertation research.
- Also interrupting me when I try to talk. The subjects change so frequently, that what I want to say is no longer relevant by the time I get a chance to say it. When I raise my finger in an "I have a point to make" signal, she takes it as me "wagging my finger at her." She once complained that I should not treat her like one of my college students--which I found really hurtful. She never saw me teach, but there she was saying that I was disrespectful toward my students.
- Forgetting I am there. We could be standing in line at an amusement park, for example, and she will start conversations with strangers and not involve me at all. I may need to talk to her about the kids, but she blames me for being rude for trying to tell her something important. Everyone else seems so much more interesting than me.
- Lots of blame shifting. As in the case of blaming me for wanting to go to the "too expensive" restaurant that she picked out. She demanded that I needed to apologize for "getting defensive" when she started screaming at me for no reason and would not listen to logic (As in "I did not say I wanted to go there. I don't even recall the name of the place. You looked it up on your phone and got directions. I just said, 'OK.'")
- Double standards--she will act like I am a horrible child abuser when I raise my voice to the kids, but she gets much more angry at them, for example.
- Not accepting consequences for her actions--She once made fun of me for bringing my jacket because I would be too hot. That night, however, she demanded that I should give her the jacket because she was cold. I should be cold because she did not want to bring her jacket.
- Lying--denying that she just said something, for example.
- Damned-if-I-do, Damned-if-I-Don't behavior. She started yelling at the kids, and I stayed quiet because 1) I was afraid that she would apply the double standard and accuse me of being abusive to the kids and 2) because she was already going overboard on the kids, so more yelling is the last thing we need. She then accused me of not backing her up. The following day, however, I do yell at the kids because I am afraid that she will start a fight over me not backing her up. Voila! Once again, she accuses me of being abusive. Or yelling at me because I did not do dishes--when I had spent the evening working on laundry and she had thanked me for that at the time. Or even yelling at me for not doing the dishes when I did as many as would fit in the dish drain.
- She used to "encourage" me to go on amusement park rides by saying that they were "not too high" or "not too steep," which had the affect of making me feel like I was being called chicken. (I have actually developed a liking for roller coasters--once she laid off of this and I started on really tame rides and played around with computer simulators.) We recently climbed a light house. I overcame my fear of heights enough to take a few steps out of the doorway. Another couple came up. The man was really giving the woman a hard time about her fear of heights. My wife blurted out that even I was able to go out, so wasn't that bad. I called her on this, and she said she was just "trying ot be encouraging." I pointed out that the woman did not want to be encouraged.
- Answering questions that have nothing to do with the question I actually asked her--possibly the questions she thinks I "should" have asked. "Which train line do we want?" "The train that leaves at 12:05." Gee, I wanted to make sure that we were going to the right place instead of departing at a certain time and winding up God-knows-where. Or maybe two trains leave at 12:05? Or maybe the 12:05 has been delayed to 12:10? Which train will get us where we want to go?
- Completing my sentences for me, often in ways that make me look bad and have very little to do with what I was about to say.
- She once got a parking ticket with my car and repeatedly told me I she was going to pay it. Next thing I know, I get a letter stating that my license has been suspended.
- Discounting/invalidating. She ignores my warnings that we need to find time to mow or the neighbors will complain, and then argues that the town was wrong to complain. Or ridiculing me in front of people with the excuse of "I was teasing. That's what couples do" when I tell her how embarrassed I felt. Or sometimes she discounts my opinion repeatedly, then all of a sudden says that someone else told her the same thing I did without acknowledging that I had already said that repeatedly--as if it is new to me.
- We aren't meeting our goals--let's set higher goals! She puts off her turn to clean the cat boxes to the point where the basement smells and the cats start peeing outside of the boxes. Instead of saying that we (she) need to stick to the schedule we have in place, she should change the schedule so we are supposed to clean them daily!
- Buying Marge the bowling ball. She once surprised me with a trip to the Renaissance Fair for my birthday--even though I had repeatedly told her over several years that I was not interested in going to the Renaissance Fair. But she wanted to go.
Sorry for venting about so much. But it seems like a lot of this could be ADHD or BPD.
Some things that are more BPD and not really ADHD:
- All or nothing thinking. We were camping at a music festival once. We spend hours driving around in circles trying to camp at the "right" section--thus missing the music we were there to hear. Our son doesn't do his homework, so she tells him that she "knows" he can get straight As. Then he says he might as well not do the homework because it won't be good enough.
- Black and white thinking. Women who have c-sections are bad. Ok, she had a C-section. It was the midwife's fault. But she is going to V-back next time. I can promise her that she is going to be able to have a vaginal birth, right? Why don't I believe in her? Good mothers stay home. Her friend got to stay home, why couldn't she? (I was proud of having my first real job out of grad school, so this was really hard to hear. Her friend married a CPA who could support a stay-at-home mother. My teaching salary was not enough.) Good mothers can stop their babies from crying. Why couldn't she get our son to stop crying? She has failed as a mother! I tried to support her that babies cry and sometimes you can't do anything about it. She keeps yelling and sobbing about it and I am left resenting that I have have to listen to her on top of our son's crying. Often, her attempts to be the perfect mother wind up preventing her from doing what is actually best for our kids. Good mother's use cloth diapers. Bad mothers use disposables. Our daughter went through several months of severe rashes before she gave in and heeded the pediatrician's advice that we switch to disposables. Then the rashes went away.
- Alienating coworkers whom she says have called her angry--she's not angry (just like she is not angry when yelling at me.) Then she lost the job--several times.
- Jekyll & Hyde anger. It comes out of nowhere and then seems to disappear abruptly. She expects everything to be fine. Why am I still hurt?
- Irrational fear of abandonment--If I decide to sleep on the couch because I can't get any sleep after a fight, that must mean we are getting a divorce! So I have to come back to bed, or we are going to get a divorce.
:)
Submitted by jennalemone on
Removed. I was just venting my own internal disappointment and disgust of my own situation.
Histrionics?
Submitted by kellyj on
I could write a lengthy reply but I won't ( lol ) instead, I'll just say that this all sound very very familiar. All of it I have experienced first hand with another person and just recently I did again, for the "I don't know" how many times now including my own family, The only reason I mentioned Histrionics as an alternative to BPD is.....a) I read somewhere the mention of ADHD and "mild or having histrionic tendencies" really resonated with me as well. b) I can see it in myself or at times...did see it but that was when I was still pretty young. Kid to early 20's to maybe later 20's.....it6 was a "phase" as I'm calling it since I just had a recollection reflecting back and I remembered....it was a "phase" and then I went through it to something else. And mainly as just a very early adult no less. And it's not like it was "full time" but more just under stress or certain circumstances. The thing is.....when it got bad enough or it came out right at the wrong time....people did see it...and it was very embarrassing for me. But without the getting angry and denying it part.....I just slunk down and shut up and just got really nervous in fear of doing it again? What ever "it" was.
And I just wanted to share that memory since it was pretty funny ( now ) lol. There was this local TV Host for a popular "live" studio "Cartoon Show" for kids right? lol This guy was a Cowboy which was very popular at the time and he a big "corral" that was made for all the kids to sit on and surround the host. Well, they ran out of room and had myself and another little boy sit on the floor next to him and so the show is about to start and they told us all to shut up and look at the "Light"....and I was too busy "blurting out" to the kid next to me...so when the light came on...I didn't stop "talking real loud" when the show came on and the Cowboy host had to turn and shoooosh'd me. OMG!! LOL I think I was about 6 at the time and I wanted to die. Cowboy "what ever his name was"......has shooshed me on TV!! In front of everyone.....lol.
I was just thinking about this and that list of things you said...and the symptoms are all there and I've had them all.....but mainly, I experienced them with other people since I eventually stopped doing that ( for the most part ) by the time I was in my late 20's but not when I was young. When I was young say 19 or 20 was kind of the dividing line for me since 20 for me then....was about 13 or 14 in an adult body. No joke that was about right. And actually too, with boy and ODD I've read where it goes from conduct disorders in to anti social behaviors later if these do not dissipate on their own or even if it's a "phase" as I'm calling it? That was the perfect word that I was looking for in the past to say "but yeah, that was just a "phase"" for the most part. Or it calmed way far down to a minimal if that later on once I went through it. Or sometimes never went back there again?
I just don't know enough about diagnosing anybody to pin point these things down so accurately to really now exactly what is what or where the lines are drawn but.....I can tell you what you said about the anger and blaming and if she didn't go get some help it was an ultimatum for divorce. That whole part or any story that's like a moving target because it will change to "fit the current situation" regardless of what was said in the past is beyond frustrating? And it is hurtful to....especially if you get blamed for what is not your's to be blamed for and the twisting the story and turning it back on you is beyond maddening to have a conversation with? Which means you can't...actually have that conversation to say what it is...what is upsetting you or making you angry? So it never happens and "those words" never get said. So they don't have to hear it or deal wit it or acknowledge it ( or you or the hurt they caused you ) .....and can just "sweep it under the rug". I have a "phrase" like that that I coined myself for each one of these situations.
This thing that just crossed my mind was that time I "blurted out" on "live TV". lol Of course.....no one watched it except for other kids in the middle of the afternoon and no one cared. But my life was ruined for quite a while after that and I still remember it which was the point I 'm trying to make. I wonder how many of those it would take for the light bulb to turn on? LOL With me, it only took that one time and I became "highly aware of it"...from that moment moving forward. That was my memory as I recalled where I really "noticed it" and that's where it started. I just wonder if, these things would end up...."unchecked" like that as it really sounds.....since I was like that at one time but without the back talk and the denying and the run around and all the rest that goes with it? My mother really didn't do that either......not the anger or the blaming "so much" at least not in the way you described it which now that you did......the "mild histrionic LIKE" behavior sounds much closer to what I saw and even had to deal with for myself at one time. Little boys who get highly emotional do not go well in the crown either. Learning to "can it' and "put a lid on it' was a full time job!! LOL
I absolutely feel your frustration and your hurt over these things. Having ADHD doesn't make you immune to them either. It only makes it worse not better for sure. I think there's a way to go about it..and the wrong way is to fight back or argue...or course that goes no where fast. But I also feel there is the "other wrong way" and just letting it all slide or go under the bridge? In my case....one good "shooosh" did the job back then and nothing more needed to be said. If you don't remember it or "feel it'....it's not going to stay or be learned from...that's for sure.
J
PS what I recall, just going offf my memory was something my therapist said quite a long time ago in relationhship specifically to BPD in context to him explaining this to me and what came out of that discussion was the concept of "cause and effect".....kind of like that's missing with BPD patients.....if I recall? I've had my challenges there too but for the most part, it's an easy concept to grasp for me ( even as a kid ). I knew I was in trouble....even before I got caught sometimes which means....I got the "cause" and th "effect" in that situation clearly....and then how can you argue it? You can't. That does appear to be a strong componenent to denial of any kind?
Hi Bowl,
Submitted by BigSurprise on
Hi Bowl,
Most of the things you've written sound very familiar or at least ring a bell. I suspect my SO is somewhere between Aspergers and ADHD, showing strong traits of both, so she's not like yours... and I still recognize those symptoms. The unsolicited advice, the false "encouragement", the passive aggressive behaviors, the bluntness in expressing opinions, the inability to take turns in a discussion, redirecting anger, inconsistency, presenting two extreme opinions basically at the same time, not allowing to end an argument, the invasion of space and time, the expectation you'll fix her errors, the distorted sense of "rules" and "what is just", the black/white thinking, the all/nothing thinking, inviting people to shared ground without asking and volunteering you... Yes, yes, and yes. These days, I'd say when it comes to my partner, most of these behaviors seem ASD-related. But then again, I can't be sure.
The diagnosis is often fuzzy, but maybe you should have a look at other disorders as well. I'm not saying you'll be able to diagnose her; those symptoms often overlap and they may be very deceiving. But, on the other hand... you may be the person who's known her best in her adult life (intimate relationship is very different from a parent-child relationship) and the only one who's really able to spot some worrisome behaviors.
I hope things will take a turn for the better. Don't be a stranger!
Aspergers
Submitted by bowlofpetunias on
My wife is generally outgoing and social. I am more likely to have have some Aspergers traits than her. I tend to be introverted. Looking back on my college years, I can see times that women were attempting to initiate sex or a relationship and I just did not get it unless they really hit me over the head with it. Some people--her (deceased) mother and her friend's husband--mistake my quiet nature for rudeness.
I have told three professional therapists that I suspect that my wife has at least some Borderline traits. These include my current therapist (who used to do couples counseling with us, so she has observed our interactions), our son's former therapist, and the current family therapist we are seeing. All three have said that they could see that as a possibility. For example, our son's former therapist said, "It wouldn't surprise me." She has been diagnosed as "Bipolar II" by a psychiatrist, but there is often a misdiagnosis of BPD as bipolar. She is taking mood stabilizers, but at a lower dosage than her doctor recommends. The therapist she is currently seeing happens to have expertise in Borderline personality disorder, but I believe that she was not aware of that when she started seeing him. I have never spoken to him myself. If she does have BPD, it is the "high functioning" version that is obviously very different than Asperperger's.
I became hopeful that maybe ADHD explains her behaviors because it has a much better prognosis than BPD. It is much more treatable.
I have clinical depression and some OCD issues. They were much worse in the past, but things like driving over tall bridges still trigger me.
Our daughter has major issues with both ADHD and OCD. Yesterday, for example, she refused to drink her chocolate milk and told the school it was because it contained growth hormones--yet we had already explained that no, organic milk by Horizon does not contain growth hormones. She insists a friend told her that it does and does not accept evidence to the contrary.
Our sone definitely has some ADHD issues, such as lying about doing something when we will obviously be able to see that he is lying--things like homework, cleaning his room, starting laundry, etc. There may be some OCD there, but not nearly as bad as our daughter's.
Oh, by the way, on the subject of ASD: She bought into the whole "vaccines cause autism" scare. I insisted that our son get vaccinated, but she counterinsisted that we had to do it behind schedule. (Arugments like "but measles isn't a problem any more"--with my response "that's because so many kids are immunized!") She tried the same thing with our daughter's vaccines, but she really wanted to use their current pediatrician because of his reputation. He told her she could do that, but she would have to find another doctor. That finally got her to do the right thing. (Again, though, it was hurtful that she discounted my views/knowledge and only accepted something when somebody else told her. Another example of discounting my knowledge, for example, was when she claimed that I was "making it up" when I explained calculus to her.)