Submitted by PoisonIvy on 07/09/2015.
Right now, it feels to me as though my lowering my expectations to correlate with my husband's alleged functional ability equals, to him, a green light to blow me off. I'm too dispirited to give examples or details.
I have accepted that there
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
I have accepted that there are some things that he is just never going to be good at. For example, he is terrible at managing money, cooking, doing laundry, keeping track of family schedules/activities. I have accepted that I will always be responsible for these areas of our life.
On on the other hand, he takes care of the lawn, home maintenance, auto maintenance and works very long hours.
However, there are some things that I'm not wiling to give up on. He has a serious lack of empathy and is emotionally impaired. I'm not willing to settle in this area. We are actively pursuing treatments to improve this situation. The catch is that I had to leave him before he would agree to seek out help. I'm currently living in a different house than him. My leaving really got his attention.
Good for you
Submitted by notgonnalosemyself (not verified) on
I thought leaving would get my husband of 25 years to sit up and pay attention. Instead, he was angry, embarrassed, asked who I told and never begged me to come back. He isolated himself and was a real life Eor. Blamed me for it all. He buttered me up saying he would get therapy after 25 yrs of asking him to get help and then when I came back said he could do on his own. Although the temper has been under control, he is nothing but a child and I feel like a roomate, doctor, mother, anything but a wife. He is hyperfocused on toys, gadgets, work. I am not in love, just have compassion. I am happy that some of my void gets filled with the other great areas of my life but those things can never take the place of a healthy reciprocal marriage mate. He can't deliver.
Adjusting or Lowering Expectations to What?
Submitted by kellyj on
I thought this would be a good opportunity to chime in here and say what I really think that we ADHD'ers cannot not help or do many things about that are truly limitations compared to other people who do not have ADHD. I'm basing this on myself of course so this could be different from one person or the next. I will say at this point in time....I've been really diligent in working on all the areas that I struggle with and I have begun to see the few areas that still lag behind despite my efforts across the board. Aside from this short list of things that it really seems I have less control of than most other things...the rest have all shown steady and on going improvement to the point that some past issues are not issues anymore. I thought it might be helpful to other people to see just what I see as areas that I have very little control over and ones that I think are truly legitimate limitations compared to other people. For me, these are the things that I ask other people including my wife to please try and be understanding since they have shown very little if any change in my ability to improve on going back to when I was a small child.
In fairness.....I also will list the flip side (the positive side) of this so you can see it too as these positives seem to get overlooked at times and are also ones that stand out at the same time. You might say these are the "gift's" that come along with having ADHD.
1. Noticing certain small details or things that are out of place or left there unintentionally especially small items like scraps of paper (food wrappers) or things on the floor or counters. I can walk by these at times and not see them as if they are not there. My ability to notice these things has really not changed much over time and as I have read so many post here on this forum say " how can they not see these things and just walk past them as if they don't exits? " Good question.....let me know the answer and we'll both know! lol
Positives: What I do know however is that if I change modes and actually "look for these things" when I am cleaning or trying to see them with that intention....I not only see these things but many other things that other people don't see. I can find every flaw, crack in the paint and things that is out of line, crooked or crumb or food that exists in the room if I turn my attention that way too the point........
one of the many skill I have and have made my career in doing for over 30 years in becoming a Master Diamond setter. I have been handed at times....gem stones worth over $100,000 to set in the most precarious of ways that involve high risk and danger of breaking that must be absolutely straight, level and perfectly situated in a piece of jewelry that is being sold for an amount of money where the expectations by both my employer and the customer are only this side of being perfect in every respect including......not damaging or breaking the thing in the first place (goes without saying lol).
But to do anything like this....I have to change modes which means I have to shift from how I am on daily basis as I am most of the time to this dedicated mode where I can actually see details and things like a candy wrapper that I left on the kitchen counter. I won't see it until I go looking for it but until then....I will walk right by it a number of times before I will notice it to throw it away. This is something that just is and not much I can do about on way or the other aside from just to try and remember to change modes and go looking for things after the fact. It's not possible for me to be in one mode or the other all the time or even at the same time and that's a good as it gets it would seem. I have gotten better about simply remember to change modes and go looking however but the fact that I have to do this as the only way to find these things or notice them tells you that this is real and not BS (an excuse).
2. Remembering and holding details about future plans or events especially given to me verbally. I don't even try because I can't do this. I can't tell you how many times my wife will (in her tendency to over plan things) will give me an detailed itinerary of something that we will be doing a week in advance and then expect me to remember all the details about this future event. I can remember the event, when, where and with who and that's it. Anything and all information outside of just that goes right out the overflow chute in my working memory and there is not way I am ever going to remember all the other minutia about who else is going to be at the party....what I should be wearing, who else is going to be there, the reason for the party (newly remolded bedroom????) etc. These things I will only remember if I am told one day in advance at best. The newly remolded bedroom I will remember when I get to the party and am standing there looking at the bedroom and listening to our friends tell the story about how this all happened. ha ah
I do know in part, this happens because too much information is being given too fast all at once and it is my wife's tendency for example. to download information like this in a few minutes and expect me to remember these things. She can do this (remember details like this) when hearing the same thing coming from others so she cannot understand why I can't do this too?
However.....(again)...if I change modes and focus on remembering something.....I have an almost indelible or even photographic memory (visually) and can remember the most minute detail of the past of things like lock combinations, phone numbers or directions (street names) of places that I may have only been to once 10 years age and can still get back to that place without ever having to look it up again on a map. Anything that I can picture in my mind remains part of my visual memory catalog without even having to try and remember. I can just go to that catalog and pick out the image (still snap shot) and see all the details in it and get what I want from it just like looking at a photograph.....street names from the sign on the corner....what kind of car is in the driveway....the color of the house etc. Very accurately most of the time? Weird huh? All I have to do to remember something verbally like this in the short term is repeat it out loud a half a dozen times and I will remember it exactly for a good long time before it fades out of mind if at all sometimes?
But again....in order to do this....it takes a dedicated effort and I have to change modes from my normal everyday minute by minute existence. I cannot do this and stay this way on that kind of basis because it's is simply not possible. Two different modes normal....not normal. But I can only do one at a time?
That's about it. The rest of my ADHD symptoms all seem to have improved with effort and have seemed to change over time with these two exceptions.....there is very little or nothing I can do to alter or change them but...as you see....the positives are also things I would not want to do without either. I have these gifts and rely on them all the time and I don't know what life would be like not to have them? It would be a great loss if that were the case.
In my mind....these are real ADHD limitations and ones that no matter how angry or upset that other people get about these things there is little I can do to change my ability to do these things like other people. What people don't seem to realize is....the parts about me that people like the most (or benefit them directly)....are also the parts that they hate about me too. They see these things as independent of one another (one is good, one is bad) but in reality.....they are one in the same thing..... just two sides of the same coin:)
J
Accepting who we all are
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
J and Rose Red,
I have been contemplating a lot lately. Where as a couple does that exact spot of meshing come into being? Where does the role of acceptance come into play? I am not sure. I am trying my level best to accept my spouse as he is - I am not always doing so well in that endeavor. I am gleaning lessons from past events so as not to remake the same painful mistakes, while not looking too far back - but focusing on a "new history."
In line with this current discussion, I had created a 'landing spot' on our kitchen counter, located immediately to the left on your first step into our kitchen. There is a multitude of hooks for keys, counter space for wallets, cell phones, etc. It is a 50/50 crap shoot. 50% of the time my son and spouse put their keys, wallets, etc on the landing spot when they walk in the door. 50% of the time, Liz picks up those keys, and wallets and cell phones from various locations in the house and sets them in the landing spot. It is what it is. A pick your battle mentality. I am willing, as time permits, to help them search for misplaced items. I am really amazed at times that they simply did not see their keys on the floor of their vehicle, or their wallet on the bathroom counter, or their cell phone in their shirt pocket, hanging on the doorknob to the bathroom. Whether I participate in the search or not, the frenzied panic that happens when they cannot find something that they honestly believe they know EXACTLY where they set it - happens frequently. I just do not get myself all worked up over it. The item will be found. Very rarely has my spouse every really "lost" anything. Once he put a wad of cash, several hundred dollars, into the left pocket of his cargo shorts. As he drove down the road with the sliding door of his service van open, somewhere between the bnk and our house, all that money got blown out of his pocket. Once he lost a checkbook. He set it on the roof of the truck, and then drove away. Same thing happens to many people.
It is not so much as they are careless, it seems that when they get home, they relax into -shall we call it complacency? Misplaced is not the same as lost.
I have accepted my spouse gets a hyper focus on whatever project he chooses. In April we again revisited the idea of selling our RV. My spouse wanted to fix a few things, so it would be "turn key ready" for the buyer. Great plan! Most of the minutes of the day that he was not at work or sleeping, he was working on that RV. I am glad for that. He is doing a great job. What I struggle with is my own feelings of being left on the wayside. To this very day, he is STILL working on that RV..I mean he even took all the lug nuts off the wheels and buffed and polished each one - that's about 50 lugnuts. Oh, they are a beauty to behold. Shine like mirrors. In the mean time Mother's Day, Memorial Day, Father's Day, and 4th of July have happened - without his participation. That time blindness trips me up every time. This too, I accept. Time goes by, and he does not feel it. Me, on the other hand, well, to me time is precious. 4 months, is, well, it is 4 MONTHS. I accept he cannot do family things at this time. I do tend to find myself being bitter over not feeling like a priority for his time planning. I am working on just doing my own thing, making my own plans - yet I feel uncomfortable not really "wanting" to be alone, yet at the the same time accepting it just has to be that way. And chiding my own self for not being able to feel happy about a phone call at 6 pm on the 4th of July asking If I wanted to go see fireworks. That caused my flesh to prickle - I was not able to feel excited he found some time to spend with me. I felt resentful. What a shame.
We still cannot get near working through any disagreements. He takes them so hard. They tear him up. I empathize with his pain, yet for me to feel content in our marriage, I need to feel he will eventually get to the point where he chooses to do something about it. Anything that is not perfect, anything that is not 100% cheered for - they just overwhelm him. Hard to watch. Hard to be a part of. Hard to live with. Hard to think I need to live in a spot where I can never be disappointed, never speak of not having something the way I wanted. That's really no way to live. I do not choose that as acceptable for Liz.
Even posting here has become an exercise in great restraint. It was time for a graduation of sorts in my life. This is no longer my place to freely share my thoughts.
Liz
Relaxing into Complacency Liz
Submitted by kellyj on
How much do I understand this? I had to reach a point, when I realized that there is no relaxing for me. That was (and still is) a difficult concept for me to face and I have to face it everyday. Relaxing means I stop paying attention and when I stop paying attention then all the work I've done and the improvements I have made also stop with it. There is not day that I wake up and can do what I use to do. When you realize that this is what you HAVE to do and there is no other alternative is when we accept that having ADHD really is a life sentence that you are born with starting from day one till the day you die. That sounds like a negative but I don't see it that way anymore. I see it as reality....mine. Is this fair? I won't go there. What's fair? Everyone has their challenges and these are mine. Either I accept that and accept that I have to possibly work harder at these things than most people on a daily basis in order to manage them and not have them be a problem or I can complain about it and look at what other people have that I do not.
The difference for me came when I new when I was working as hard as I could and still fell short or needed a break. That's not relaxing into complacency....that was working myself into a state of exhaustion and having nothing left for myself or anyone else. That was the day I truly found my voice and I new I had given it everything I had and done the best I could. I did discover that if I put that much effort in all the time everyday....I was able to manage my ADHD to the point that no one seemed to notice and people appeared to be Okay with my performance. The problem was.....I felt like my life was like living on a Prison road gang doing hard labor everyday with no reprieve. I literally became sick and my immune system became compromised. I became mentally and physically exhausted and my performance on all levels began to decline and suffer. I had hit the point of diminishing returns and just kept on going telling myself this was what I had to do in order to make my wife or other people happy. I kept this up for almost 1 1/2 years until I became so ill with exhaustion that something had to happen or I was going down. Actually....(as I just wrote this)....this is not entirely true.
When I hit that point was when I realized what I was doing was not trying to make other people happy. What I was really trying to do (and what I have always wanted going back to when I was a child) was for other people to get off my back and just leave me in peace. That has always been my goal and when I can do this to the point that other people are Okay with me or don't mind having me around ( I don't affect them negatively ) is when I am Okay and happy....or at least, that's what I thought? What I found was exactly what happened. I did learn to keep people off my back by finding ways around my ADHD symptoms to the point that no one really noticed or complained but at that point......I was not happy. I had given up myself and had given all that I had just to get to that place just to be like everyone else and not be any trouble for other people but the cost was too great in the long run and I hated my life.
But that is also when I new that I had done the absolute best I had and that was the day when I did find my voice and the attitude that went along with it that said....if this is not good enough for other people then I don't care what they think about me. This is not that pissy little kid kind of attitude where you really care but you say that you don't and then go off and sulk and pout. This is the point of really not caring what anyone says or thinks and nothing hurts your feeling anymore after that and you become immune to anything anyone says about you no matter how judgmental or disrespectful it may be. This is the place of true self confidence and the passive aggressive old me disappeared.
It is also when I started to communicate in real terms and stopped the rationalizing, making excuses and cow towing to other people if they looked at me crossed eyed if they saw me doing something they didn't like and could walk right up to them and look them dead in the eye and say straight up.....this is the best I have and if you don't like it that is your problem not mine and really mean it without being hurt or angry.....and then go right back to doing exactly what I need to do and know that I was doing what I should be doing and doing it as best I could while knowing that there still will be times that I fall short but I'm not going to kill myself just to be like everyone else at the same time. At this point is where you begin to give yourself a break and be Okay with being far less than perfect and do not need anyone else to validate who you are any more. You become immune to what other people think about you in a good way but you are also ready to stand up for yourself if other people start standing in your way or trying to make your life more difficult because they don't like how you do things and disrespect you for being different. As my T has told me in the past......the one time that anger IS appropriate is when you are being disrespected. That is not excuse for raging and being hostile and aggressive.....it means you have a right to say something and do it in a way that other people know that you will not put up with or tolerate that kind of treatment from them. The best way I have found when someone is disrespecting me to shut them down (now compared to the past ) is to stop what I am doing and walk up to them and look them straight in the eye and say " Gee....it feels like you are disrespecting me? Is that what you are doing?" You'd be amazed how quickly people stop doing what ever they are doing and become very quiet after that.....and generally, they don't actually give you an answer when they realize they would have to say "yes" in front of other people right after being disrespectful in front of the same audience.
In the past I would have said something like "you can go piss up a rope" but that was when I was being a victim and still being hurt and angry at them and carrying that around and let it bring me down. When you don't care in the way I am saying.....you are no longer angry because it no longer hurts. It also doesn't matter if everyone likes what I do or how I do things as long as I know that I am on track and doing what I need to do. It also doesn't matter if I fall short occasionally since...I am only human and falling short for me (with ADHD) means not being 100% perfect all the time everyday in managing my ADHD.
That's the difference between relaxing into complacency like I did in the past and having to recover all the time from feeling hurt, angry and depressed that I fell short in other people eyes. What keeps me from going back to that place again is getting up every morning and reminding myself that I have to go to work just like everyone else but in this case....going to work means managing my ADHD just like making an income at my other job. For me.....my ADHD job is one I have accepted as one I will always have until the day I die and that's just the way it is. When you can do that is when you stop being a victim to your ADHD and things change for the better.
And when my wife saw me go through this and actually realized that I was not making excuses for myself and I was not going to tolerate her using coercive tactics on me to try and control me with her anger (as I was so familiar with from my childhood ) by doing exactly what I said and not backing down or changing course no matter how nasty she became.....she also backed off and now has completely changed her demeanor with me. We are getting along so much better and she has cut me a lot of slack especially since she see's all the changes that are actually beginning to materialize. I have to give her credit for one thing in that she has real issues with being patient. She is NOT a patient person! lol To see her exerting this much patience for her is the same as me doing my best with my ADHD. I tell her this all the time to validate her efforts with me. We've been getting along quite well recently and she has come to me and opened up about a lot of things that she has not been able to tell me before. I guess for her.....she needed to test me to my limits to believe that I was really trying as hard as I could and doing my best before she could actually accept and believe me.
And the only thing I had to do first before this happened which did catch me by surprise, was learning and understanding that I had PTSD and the resulting panic attack anger that I had not experienced for decades until I had hit my extreme limits of exhaustion and stress with someone coming at you with out of control anger This isn't raging by the way ( I've mentioned before, I don't have quick, hot reactive anger or a nasty temper....usually just the opposite. when I'm angry...I usually get very quiet and don't say much at all if anything ).....it's being cornered and having to turn and fight from someone who is becoming an aggressor first. I had to learn to control this too in the face of her becoming physically out of control of her emotions and behavior. Not physically violent but abusively and verbally attacking. It resembled too closely my past and I had to shut this down or not be with her. I learned to walk away and not react and just ignore her when she would get out of control of herself. That was beyond just disrespectful...it was loose cannon aimed in my direction and that was where I had to draw a hard and fast line.
J
Complacency was not the best choice of words
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
Hi J,
I looked up complacency: a feeling of smug or uncritical satisfaction with oneself or one's achievements. Oh, boy, I have been using that word in error. My spouse and my son are surely not smug! What I wanted to convey in that sentence was 'they are content to be in the safety of their own home and can let down their guard." I would compare it to myself not shaving my legs if I know I am just going to be home by myself. A comfortable place to be without having to live up to anyone else's expectations.
You said: The difference for me came when I new when I was working as hard as I could and still fell short or needed a break. That's not relaxing into complacency....that was working myself into a state of exhaustion and having nothing left for myself or anyone else.
In those words, I believe, is an explanation of a place where conflict arises for me with my spouse. He busts his butt. He works every living minute of every living day, trying to get to the place of pleasing 'some voice' that lives deep inside him that controls him and causes him to feel he is falling short. That is NOT the voice of Liz. A T once suggested to us - as a couple - that we attempt this scenario: When my spouse starts to respond in misplaced anger directed at me, we use a physical sign to indicate to my spouse that he is not hearing Liz, but rather that voice inside who IS NOT Liz, that phantom that is making his life miserable. That was good in theory - in practice, it caused even more anger to be stirred up in my spouse because I was, yet again, "telling him what to do."
I have had to pull yet further away from my spouse as I am not able to just take his anger. I am not so strong as to be a figurative dumping ground where my spouse can release all that anger - then walk away and leave me sitting holding the bag. It worked in exactly that way until the day I hit the point of realizing I could not do it, not one more minute. Hey, we all need to shoot off some steam sometime - and it is something a person can live with, in BALANCE, The balance of those scenarios in my life is way out of whack.
At one time, I thought it was a good thing, something a good wife should do, shoulder my spouses burdens. Now, I know better. I cannot and will not. And, oddly enough, sometimes I really dislike myself for that, as it is agony for me to watch my spouse in so much pain. I sat on the steps of our house one night, listening to my spouse cry out in utter pain and agony, and all I could do was pray.
Right now, I need some support and encouragement in standing by my spouse as he struggles, yet not enabling him to remain where he is. Sadly, in my own life, I have worn out my family's listening ear. They heard it all. They have grown weary. They can't help my spouse, and they can't help me. It is not so much as I feel alone, it is I realize what my own actions have done, and I pull away in shame for what I have done. At LEAST I find peace in understanding and believing that in all my struggle, I never did bash my spouse, nor be disrespectful to him as a man or father.
My family - not one of them - has walked in my shoes. They really have no clue what it has been like. We all put on a better face when we are in public. We save those most frustrating emotions to be released in the privacy of our own home.
As I see it, the effort my spouse put into wearing that "happy" mask has become too much. He chooses to stay home, with his stuff in the yard, because he fears breaking down in front of others.
He is missed by many. I pray for the day he can just let go, and enjoy life.
Liz
I Thought the Same Thing You Did
Submitted by kellyj on
I read being complacent as being content the same as you...now we both know the difference:) I certainly wasn't feeling anything close to being smug or having any uncritical satisfaction about my accomplishments either in context to what I was saying ( quite the contrary, I tend to beat myself up more than anything and that really is part of a different problem) but relaxing to much and thinking everything was Okay at times thinking that I had fixed the problem only to find it coming back a biting me on the butt was definitely my MO.
To add to what I said.....I found that what works now is pacing myself and being more consistent and not using other people as my means to tell me how fast or how much I can do at any given time is really working ( remembering the Tortoise and the Hare?) Before I was throwing everything I had into it at a pace I could not maintain. All that did was make me more inconsistent with lots of ups and downs. I guess only the person who is doing the work actually knows what pace will work or not work for them. Just like you are saying....no one knows what you have been through and could know what it is to walk in your shoes. Of course if you think about it.....how can anyone really know? For the record....I do understand that is why you ladies come here since you can share this one thing you have in common. I get it (just to be sure)
One thing I can relate with you on is this A T once suggested to us - as a couple - that we attempt this scenario: When my spouse starts to respond in misplaced anger directed at me, we use a physical sign to indicate to my spouse that he is not hearing Liz, but rather that voice inside who IS NOT Liz, that phantom that is making his life miserable. That was good in theory - in practice, it caused even more anger to be stirred up in my spouse because I was, yet again, "telling him what to do."
Now...this would have worked with me (your T advise) but this would definitely not work with my wife for example. As my T and even she admits...."is a bit prickly". That may be putting it more mildly for her sake at times. ha ha She is really defensive and when she gets going and on that mind set.....she is REALLY touchy about anyone telling her what to do. Even perceived as telling her what to do. If this is any help for you....I know where this comes from and why with her. In her relationship with her Mom.....everything is a power struggle with her mother. She is the most difficult woman I have ever met...no joke. After years of living with a person like this.....my wife automatically defaults to being oppositional the minute she starts hearing anyone telling her what to do because this is what she got from her mother growing up. Everything is a power struggle with this woman all the time! She can suck all the oxygen out a room in under a minute and can make even the nicest friendliest person recoil in horror in that much time!lol She is obstinate, mule headed, stubborn and willful and is completely negative all the time and will do just the opposite of what anyone wants from her unless you present in a way that sound like it was her idea or something that she wants. She is completely impossible to try a deal with on any level. She can make the simplest thing become a major source of contention. Change the channel of the TV even if she is not in the room watching it? Open a window because it's too hot? Remove a boiling over pot off the stove?....forget about it. She would find some way to get into a fight with you about no matter what you do as if you and everyone is out to get her and ruin her life. It's a conspiracy and everyone in the world is in on it. She has a chip on her shoulder and big as Texas and it's been there all her life. I do feel compassion for her but it's difficult to do when you are in the same room with her. For my wife.....she was conditioned to react in preparation for being attacked (in some way?) by someone who was so controlling and defensive that everything is a battle all the time over what little power there is to get. For my wife, whether she fully realizes this yet or not....she's still reacting to her mother because this was so traumatizing to grow up with a person like this. I get it but it has taken a lot to get her to see at the very least.....that I'm not her mother!! Ooh boy. It's oppositional defiant behavior and gets passed on from one generation to the next. My wife is not like her mother but she learned this "shoot first, ask questions later" kind of knee jerk reaction from being to being raised by a totally abusive damaged person like this. That's why I'm calling these episodes PTSD like attacks since she has not been officially diagnosed but this is what it looks like to me? I did finally bring her to the point of making her see that it was her mother that she was really angry and responding to but only as a hail Mary when nothing else worked. I think it did finally sink in but and we have begun to talk about this together. In the issue with my wife....."I'm not the bad guy here!" She is still battling with her mother every time someone sets her into this mode and she hasn't fully come to terms with this yet.
Here's the specific thing
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
Here's the specific thing that's bugging me. My husband and I live apart, because he is caregiver for his elderly parents. I occasionally send my husband emails about important family topics. The current important family topic is getting the roof of our house replaced. We discussed this when he was last here. He is aware that I am getting bids. I've sent him a few very short messages containing the bid amounts. I've also sent him a very short email stating that I will be meeting with our financial adviser to figure out where to get funds to pay for the roof replacement. My husband has not responded.
Not responding to emails is a long-running issue. On occasion, I've speculated to my husband that I think he doesn't read emails from me. He says he does. But if I comment on a specific email, he'll often say, "Oh, I didn't see that one." So now my expectation is that he doesn't read emails from me or even if he does, he won't respond. I don't find his behavior necessary; I know that he can respond to messages, because he was inadvertently allowing me to see that he was responding to messages from our daughter last week, because he hit replied to "all" instead of just to her (the sender).
So, it seems to me that me lowering my expectations about him communicating with me has resulted in him thinking it's fine to not communicate, because he has ADHD and shouldn't be expected to do something as hard as replying to emails.
What I Think Rosered
Submitted by kellyj on
...is that he could do better especially in communicating with you. I think he doesn't want to face this part and that's why it keeps happening. If you read what I just wrote to Liz...the big change for me when I actually knew in my heart of hearts that I was giving my best was also when I started to really communicate more and speak directly about my ADHD and not feel shame or embarrassment. Until you reach that point....you don't want to face it or talk about it....which means just sweeping everything under the rug and not dealing with things at all. Not dealing with things means not wanting to talk to people or communicate with them and ignoring everything including your responsibilities. to others. After a certain point of things getting bad or out of control......it doesn't really matter anymore. How bad can bad get? After a point....it stops becoming any worse and it doesn't matter how bad things get after that. Bad just feels bad and it doesn't change by adding more bad on to it....it's all the same after a while and at that point you just don't want to face or deal with anything.
If he feels that nothing he ever does is going to be good enough then he is not differentiating between not communicating with you or responding to you to the other things on his list of things that he knows that he fails at doing. After a certain point they all just become one big failure and get thrown onto the pile. It part of denial and a defense from feeling bad all the time. Ignoring your emails and communicating with you is him ignoring his failure with you and not wanting to be reminded or having to look at just another one of his failures. It's just looking away from the things he doesn't want to look at for that reason I think or possibly telling himself that the only thing he is going to hear from you is more of what he is not doing right (more bad news) and just avoiding all of it. I'm just explaining why I think he does this not excusing him for it.
I also wanted to say to you ( after reading so many of your posts about your H moving back home to take care of his parents)....by him doing this, he is also moving back to the same family dysfunction that he came from (possibly?). Unfortunately...this might feel somewhat familiar and safe but it is only because he is of the same dysfunction and there is safety in numbers. If his parents enabled him in the first place they will do it again for the same reason. He might feel more validated with them and not feel so much like he is failing especially since he is helping them which I'm sure they appreciated....but he is also just crawling back into the same hole of denial and not having to face or deal with anything at the same time? Which in essence.....shutting out the real world and wanting all his problems to magically disappear. As long as he feels accepted and validated with his parents as dysfunctional as this really is....he can avoid feeling the emotions that are real that make him feel bad.
On your end.....yes, it's silly bordering on ridiculous. How hard is it to respond to emails? It's not the act of responding or even you he is avoiding.....it how he feels when he has to face reality and his own failings. On your end....this is not something that I think you have to lower your expectations of him. I may be bad about checking emails and responding to them consistently in a timely manner but I do respond and make sure I communicate with people even if I am a little behind on time. That sounds more like an ADHD tendency.
And yes...the "oh, I didn't see that one" is a lie but it's a denial lie and not wanting to have to face what he is really feeling inside. I think that is different than someone who is a pathological liar and is truly devoid of the ability to be honest. He sounds like he is just in denial and full of magical thinking....."if I ignore it, somehow it will all just go away." Right now...he just doesn't want to have to think about or deal with the roof and money issues and is avoiding thinking about it by ignoring it.
Like I said....all of this falls into one category....denial and not wanting to feel bad by not thinking about it because it overwhelms him emotionally. It's a self fullfilling prophecies cycle and until he can break out of this cycle it will continue but....moving back home with his parents was just returning to the source I think which only makes this even harder for him to do. Families tend to pull you back into the same dysfunction and want to maintain it because the status quo is safer than the unknown despite how unhealthy it is. Safety in numbers.
J
J
I think you're right, about
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
I think you're right, about everything. Did you ever think of becoming a therapist?
Ha Ha Ha Thank You But No
Submitted by kellyj on
I told my T not that long ago......"whether that was your intention, I find myself doing what you do all the time now everywhere I go. Is it osmosis or something?" He said that once you learn how to do this for yourself....you can't help but start seeing the same things in other people everywhere you go where before you were just kind of ignorantly oblivious to these things. He's right and it's a little unnerving at times! Even if I am sitting in line at the store listening to the person in front of me going off on some tangent with the checking clerk about a problem with the merchandise..... when I actually start recognizing exactly what I am witnessing from this person, I find myself unconsciously moving backwards trying to distance myself them. lol It takes all I have to use what I've learned for myself and my wife right now. Doing this here is really helpful for me since it has now become a way to remind myself of all the things I need to keep fresh in my mind so I don't forget. I don't think I could do this for a living but if this helps here with you...I'm glad that some of what I have learned is useful for other people too. That and it does appear that there is a shortage of men here with ADHD.....like I'm the only one most of the time? ha ha
J
I am very grateful that you
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
I am very grateful that you understand what's going on with my husband. A lot of people just see the "adult man living with needy elderly parents" and think "he's a saint." (Yes, the word "saint" has been used more than once.) I acknowledge the challenges of taking care of elderly parents, but I also don't think it's particularly saintly to dump one's wife and then shun her.
No, That's Not Right Rosered
Submitted by kellyj on
It looks good on paper as you say....such a caring person to do this (your H) but that's just appearances. I do see something different because I have lived with and had people in my own family who were good at making appearances too and it's BS as far as I am concerned. I'm sure your H is struggling and I understand that from seeing things from his side....but I also understand it for what it is for the same reason. It's running away instead of facing his challenges head on. He's still chasing the dragons tail instead of fighting and that I think that is a sign of weakness of character from where I sit.
My father was a really good example of this and why I have had to learn all of this the hard way. He was by all standards a very successful and powerful man in his field of work. He was admired and respected and for good reason. He was really good at what he did. (he was a corporate VP for a large company) I did learn a lot from him though in good ways too. I have never seen anyone handle people the way he could. He was a master manipulator and could control even the most nightmarish situations going up against irate groups of people at one time. I once watched him in action and it was a beautiful thing to watch. He had an entire family come in and confront him all screaming and yelling and it was it was ugly. All he did was lift his finger and said "hold it! I'm only going to fight one of you at a time so you all just go and pick your representative and come back with just one of you that I'm going to talk with. I'm not talking to anyone until you do this." These people at first just sat kind of blank looking and stared at him for a moment and then they did what he asked and one person was picked and started talking. As soon as anyone else even made a peep...he would raise his finger again and said "no, no...what did I say?" and they would shut up and let their representative go on a twenty minute rant non stop while my father just looked at this person and nodded the whole time and didn't say a word. After the family rep was finished downloading my father asked "are you finished?" the person said "yes'...and all my father said was "how can I fix this problem for you?" The man told him what he wanted and my father told him he couldn't do tha but....he could meet him halfway and that was all he was going to do and there would be no discussion after that. He told him this was a one time offer and if they didn't take it he would give them nothing if they walked away from it. Anyway....the people took the offer and left but were not all that happy but at least the crisis was over. When they left he turned to me ans said...."never give anything for free...once you do...they will be back forever wanting everything for free from that point on."
In business...this worked great but unfortunately....that is an artificially controlled world and the only thing that matters to the corporation is the almighty dollar. This was the perfect world for someone who only cares about one thing and has no feelings what so ever about really compromising or giving of yourself for anyone else unless they got something out of it. That "never give anything for free" still echoes in my ears.....it was how he saw everyone including his family. Behind closed doors out of the lime light of his admirers at work where he did not have this kind of control and blind obedience or could dismiss people like he did that day not caring if he ever saw them again....he was a small man without any power who would rage and act out like a little child who didn't get his way. It was disgraceful and to the point.....there was no where to run and hide from his family. He could not dismiss us and never see us again but in the moment....all he cared about was winning and making sure he got something out of every situation no matter what. Eventually....he spent more time away from home and less time with his family because he could not undo his behavior but he would never admit or concede that he was ever wrong or say he was sorry and act like a decent human being when it was required of him.
But...he looked good and made a good appearance as long as he could be in control of every situation and never be put into a situation where he could be wrong or make a mistake. For everyone else in the outside word.... he would brag about how great he was to them and even brag about (us) to them. I heard this through other people but never heard from him. All I got was what was wrong with me and what a disappointment I was. (Alec Baldwin in the show 30 Rock reminds me a lot of my father just to give you an idea of what he was like at work).
This is past history for me and I am not carrying this around anymore so it doesn't bother me to tell this because I understand it. That's why I needed to learn this stuff so I could let it go and move past it since before....I was mostly baffled and just angry and disgusted. That's not good for you to carry this kind of thing around with you and it does nothing for you but make you miserable. It's best to be able to see people for who they really are and be compassionate but guarded so they can not cause anymore damage in the future. It's also why it's so easy for me to spot this now because people like my father do tend to act in the same very predicable ways. Like I said.....when I see these people out and about in public now.....I start to get the creeps and move as far away from them as I can. lol
So in a real way....I've seen what your H is doing in a different version. Running away from his family and his troubles to avoid having to face his failings and admit where he is wrong. Instead, going where he can be accepted just as he is and not have to change. Sounds like this to me at least if I'm not mistaken? Since our family (and especially me) did not admire my father and tell him how great he was like everyone did in his job where he could always be right and never be questioned of looked down upon....that's where he spent all his time and was every ones role model. All I saw was small weak man who controlled any situation that he felt he was not in control of by raging over the top of you only from being afraid of admitting he could ever be wrong or having to say he was sorry for anything since this would require him to look at himself and admit that he was just a flawed as the next person and was no different than anyone else in the big scheme of things. In my mind...that takes a lot more courage and character to do but what you get for doing this is to be real human being instead. There is nothing wrong with not being perfect or wrong as long as you can own it, admit it and say you are sorry when it is appropriate. I've found people generally tend to be very forgiving if you can do just this much:)
J
I agree with what J wrote,
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
I agree with what J wrote, but would also add these two things...
1) He may not be answering as a passive/aggressive way of separating from you...no contact. It's his way of pretending that the marriage is over.
2) He may also not be responding to Q's in regards to the roof and similar because then he can has no "ownership" in the decision, in case it's too expensive or in case there is a later problem. My own H wouldn't make decisions or would take a passive role so that if something negative happened, he could say, "Well, that was your decision. It was what you wanted. " Even times when I would insist that he participate in the decision, he'd later pretend that he only had a very minor role in the decision.
NEED TO ADD....
3) There may be a 3rd reason: If he doesn't respond, then he can insist that you pay for all of the expenses. He may also think that if he agrees about the roof, then you'll ask him to help pay.
"Well, that was your decision. It was what you wanted. "
Submitted by kellyj on
That's a Narc for you right there. Never commit to anything in case it goes south...that way there is always someone else to blame and point the finger at to make sure you will never be seen as wrong or that you made a mistake. Bingo. Sneaky bastards! lol
Ooops....that wasn't very positive..... I still have my moments (remembering back:) If that was insensitive...please let me know;)
J
Thank you. I think you're
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
Thank you. I think you're both right about the factor of not wanting to be part of the decision so he can disclaim responsibility and then complain about it later.
I totally agree with you!!!!
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
@jjamieson
I totally agree with you, but where did you learn that from? I have never heard that before. It makes TOTAL sense, but is that listed as some sort of NPD symptom?
My H has Borderline PD, and that is the PD that includes a bit of everything, including some NPD. He has some NPD traits. I had a T who told me that she believed that H's mom was a Narc. It shocked me at first, because she wasn't the stereotypical Narc mom, but after more research/thinking, I realized that my T was onto something. H's mom was extremely lenient, permissive, charming, never wanted her kids to be upset at her, etc. She's the only mother that I've ever heard of that NEVER once had an argument with any of her children, including daughters. That's practically impossible, since moms typically will fight with teen daughters over various teen demands. .
I noticed something odd with one of H's sisters a long time ago. She would let her H pick out the home furnishings, which is strange for a wife. Then, about 2 years later, there was some issue (don't remember what it was, but it was something about spending money), and she waved her hands across her living room and said something like, "well, none of this was my choice. Bob* picked everything." I remember being shocked that she was washing her hands of everything.
It just made such an impact on me that I still remember this - over 25 years ago.
Since then, when H has tried this SAME thing, I've said, "you made a choice. You CHOSE to let me decide. THAT was your choice."
name changed for privacy*
I Learned It From Experience, Unfortunately ;)
Submitted by kellyj on
What you said is perfect....these are the moments that stay with you and you don't ever forget.....even after 25 years.
It shocked me at first, because she wasn't the stereotypical Narc mom, but after more research/thinking, I realized that my T was onto something. H's mom was extremely lenient, permissive, charming, never wanted her kids to be upset at her, etc. She's the only mother that I've ever heard of that NEVER once had an argument with her 4 daughters. That's practically impossible, since moms typically will fight with teen daughters over various teen demands. .
What this is is a big red flag waving in your face but until you have experienced it and recognize it for what it is.....these things appear out of place but not necessarily alarming when they really should be. The fact that it shocked you at first is because you are a healthy normal person. The fact that this stayed with you was because something about was not quite right? Seemingly out of place but not having any real way to explain it?
When things don't seem to make sense you have to wonder....is it me....or is it them? This feeling is what a Narcissist will pick up on and take advantage of. and work you against yourself over time. Self doubting yourself and your own intuitions and feelings. This is what they do.
I can think of many ways to reference this....."throwing out flack"...."diversionary tactics"...."running interference"....."confusing the issue"....All of this is in a way to confuse you when all is said and done. It goes against logic and reason until you realize what the "ulterior motive" is. That is the key answer for you in being able to understand what they are doing and "why?"
This was what I felt like being raised by a Narc and my mother also had her own set of issues that were complimenting my fathers in a perfect dysfunction. You might say that the dysfunction itself was in equilibrium. If you are raised in this kind of environment.....what is normal for you is not normal for everyone else but you don't see it.....that is until you do.
In many ways.....I began to see it early (luckily). I began to question and compare what I was seeing in other families and not believe what I was being told. In essence.....I was believing myself more than them but it still leaves you with not understanding what it is that is wrong and not having a good foundation to work from. That's the abuse. It leaves only one of two options available for you....."buy in" or be ostracized. The problem is that when you are young....you really are dependent and have much fewer options available to you. You have to at least go with the flow and buy in enough just to survive but at a cost to your own self esteem and self worth for anything you get out of doing this. Playing both sides of the fence in this case is playing along to get your needs met and trying to keep that separate from yourself and who you are. I don't think anyone in this situation can do that without being affected on some level and having these boundaries crossed or muddied at the very least. To the degree this happens I think.....is to the degree that this will be a problem later on in life and be able to be "fixed" or remedied later on.
If you can understand this.....you can also understand my compulsive need for answers and to know "why?" for everything. lol I know it comes from this experience I had in a big way and I have been doing it for so long it I do it without thinking about it. That in itself has it's own set of problems I assure you but at least in my case (comparing myself to my own sisters for example).....they bought in and I didn't and I am thankful for this now later on in life. It came at a price but in this instance....the pay off or what I was buying was my own self esteem (or self respect). In my mind however.....this is not something that should have to come at a price in a normal family situation and children should not have to pay anything for this privilege.
So to reiterate for you.....I had the experience with no explanation (or answers) to the questions of "why?". Once I understood the why....(the ulterior motive) ...it's easy for me to reference a lifetime of experiences (the ones that I remember) and use that to work from.
My best advise to you here OW (from just what you said)......every time you are "shocked" or think something is "odd" and especially when they stick in your memory like that as being a somewhat "poignant' but yet unexplained, troubling, confusing or unresolved in your mind. There's a good reason for it....find out what that reason is!! lol Once you understand the MO and ulterior motive behind the behavior (the pattern of behavior and what drives it and motivates this person) you will begin to understand it from a working stand point and be able to spot or recognize these same patterns in other people too. It really is the same thing once you begin to see it and you now have the experience (the exposure to it) enough that you are beginning to see it too.
Like you said....you were beginning to see that your T is on to something. I'm smiling because I felt the same way in that situation but more closer to the truth.....you and I were the ones who were beginning to feel like we were on to something......your T was already there.....he was just getting you to see the same thing he already saw because it is engrained in his working knowledge/memory. And.... to the degree that you can do this for yourself and acquire the same ability is that you can. To a lessor degree.....this is how I learned it too along with my own experience to work from. In a real quantifiable way......this was the education I paid for in going to see my T and it was worth every penny! lol
This is why it is so difficult (and dangerous) to self diagnose other people and read a list of symptoms out of a book (or on the internet). Trying to look at symptoms and using this as your only tool is wrought with all kinds of problems and reasons why this doesn't work very well. All it is a check list of variables.....what you need to be looking at is the behaviors themselves as a whole.....the pattern or constellation of variables and see this over time. This is what you have OW.....you have the experience to do this. Symptoms are just clues....look at these moments and ask yourself "why?"
Stand back and look at the forest from the trees......(the behaviors from the symptoms)....I'll bet you will begin to see the bigger picture and the light bulb will start to go on. I think the hardest part and the biggest obstacle in any of this is when you come to those moments and realize that what you knew or thought you knew was not correct and along with it....your memories of your life that you now have to go back and let go of as not being correct either. I'm still doing that to this day and I have to grieve in little bits at a time for each one I remember and then go "shit"....there goes another one! All in good time I guess:)
J
>>>
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
>>>
What this is is a big red flag waving in your face but until you have experienced it and recognize it for what it is.....these things appear out of place but not necessarily alarming when they really should be. The fact that it shocked you at first is because you are a healthy normal person. The fact that this stayed with you was because something about was not quite right? Seemingly out of place but not having any real way to explain it?
>>>>
Right. There were a couple of things that seemed out of place, but I didn't know what to make of them at first. One thing was that although my father-in-law often raged at the kids, he never argued with his wife - EVER. That always struck me as being very unusual. How can a couple be together for 50+ years and never have a fight? I've never gotten a good explanation for this. Later on, I concluded that my mother-in-law knew that her H was a rager so she "stayed out of his way." I was curious as to what she would do when he'd rage at the children, and H said that she would say nothing. That did not sit well with me.
>>>>
When things don't seem to make sense you have to wonder....is it me....or is it them? This feeling is what a Narcissist will pick up on and take advantage of. and work you against yourself over time. Self doubting yourself and your own intuitions and feelings. This is what they do.
<<<
I don't doubt that but I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean the below examples?
>>>
I can think of many ways to reference this....."throwing out flack"...."diversionary tactics"...."running interference"....."confusing the issue"....All of this is in a way to confuse you when all is said and done. It goes against logic and reason until you realize what the "ulterior motive" is. That is the key answer for you in being able to understand what they are doing and "why?"
>>>>
I know that my H uses diversionary tactics all the time. He will twist things and not let me defend myself.
>>>
This was what I felt like being raised by a Narc and my mother also had her own set of issues that were complimenting my fathers in a perfect dysfunction. You might say that the dysfunction itself was in equilibrium. If you are raised in this kind of environment.....what is normal for you is not normal for everyone else but you don't see it.....that is until you do.
>>>
I guess that is what went on in H's family. The father was a rager (ADHD and likely OCPD), and the mother was ADHD and likely NPD, or at least NPD traits.
>>>>
In many ways.....I began to see it early (luckily). I began to question and compare what I was seeing in other families and not believe what I was being told. In essence.....I was believing myself more than them but it still leaves you with not understanding what it is that is wrong and not having a good foundation to work from. That's the abuse. It leaves only one of two options available for you....."buy in" or be ostracized.
>>>>
It's funny that you use the words, "buy in" or be ostracized. That is kind of what went on in H's family. They were brain-washed, literally, to robotically accept the mantra that "mom is the best mother," and "dad is a hard working man." It has been like the Emperor's New Clothes. When I first pointed out to H that his mom was a lousy mom (never cooked, never cleaned, never helped out, nothing) and only served herself, at first H was in denial about it. Now, he readily sees it. But if he were to say anything to his family, he'd be ostracized for it. The same with his dad. When I pointed out that there was no excuse for his business to have been so unprofitable, and I pointed out that his dad spent too much time watching TV, reading magazines, and goofing off, instead of "working his business," H began to see that. But, his family still believes the mantra, even though the facts are clearly out there. No one seems to dig deeper than skin deep.
>>>>
The problem is that when you are young....you really are dependent and have much fewer options available to you. You have to at least go with the flow and buy in enough just to survive but at a cost to your own self esteem and self worth for anything you get out of doing this. Playing both sides of the fence in this case is playing along to get your needs met and trying to keep that separate from yourself and who you are. I don't think anyone in this situation can do that without being affected on some level and having these boundaries crossed or muddied at the very least. To the degree this happens I think.....is to the degree that this will be a problem later on in life and be able to be "fixed" or remedied later on.
<<<
Yes, I can see this!
>>>>
If you can understand this.....you can also understand my compulsive need for answers and to know "why?" for everything. lol I know it comes from this experience I had in a big way and I have been doing it for so long it I do it without thinking about it. That in itself has it's own set of problems I assure you but at least in my case (comparing myself to my own sisters for example).....they bought in and I didn't and I am thankful for this now later on in life. It came at a price but in this instance....the pay off or what I was buying was my own self esteem (or self respect). In my mind however.....this is not something that should have to come at a price in a normal family situation and children should not have to pay anything for this privilege.
So to reiterate for you.....I had the experience with no explanation (or answers) to the questions of "why?". Once I understood the why....(the ulterior motive) ...it's easy for me to reference a lifetime of experiences (the ones that I remember) and use that to work from.
<<<
Thank you.
My best advise to you here OW (from just what you said)......every time you are "shocked" or think something is "odd" and especially when they stick in your memory like that as being a somewhat "poignant' but yet unexplained, troubling, confusing or unresolved in your mind. There's a good reason for it....find out what that reason is!! lol Once you understand the MO and ulterior motive behind the behavior (the pattern of behavior and what drives it and motivates this person) you will begin to understand it from a working stand point and be able to spot or recognize these same patterns in other people too. It really is the same thing once you begin to see it and you now have the experience (the exposure to it) enough that you are beginning to see it too.
Like you said....you were beginning to see that your T is on to something. I'm smiling because I felt the same way in that situation but more closer to the truth.....you and I were the ones who were beginning to feel like we were on to something......your T was already there.....he was just getting you to see the same thing he already saw because it is engrained in his working knowledge/memory. And.... to the degree that you can do this for yourself and acquire the same ability is that you can. To a lessor degree.....this is how I learned it too along with my own experience to work from. In a real quantifiable way......this was the education I paid for in going to see my T and it was worth every penny! lol
This is why it is so difficult (and dangerous) to self diagnose other people and read a list of symptoms out of a book (or on the internet). Trying to look at symptoms and using this as your only tool is wrought with all kinds of problems and reasons why this doesn't work very well. All it is a check list of variables.....what you need to be looking at is the behaviors themselves as a whole.....the pattern or constellation of variables and see this over time. This is what you have OW.....you have the experience to do this. Symptoms are just clues....look at these moments and ask yourself "why?"
Stand back and look at the forest from the trees......(the behaviors from the symptoms)....I'll bet you will begin to see the bigger picture and the light bulb will start to go on. I think the hardest part and the biggest obstacle in any of this is when you come to those moments and realize that what you knew or thought you knew was not correct and along with it....your memories of your life that you now have to go back and let go of as not being correct either. I'm still doing that to this day and I have to grieve in little bits at a time for each one I remember and then go "shit"....there goes another one! All in good time I guess:)
It has been like the Emperor's New Clothes.....
Submitted by kellyj on
Also a good reference. Taking this and using it to apply here.....if you are the little girl in the story....and you KNOW the emperor has no clothes on because your looking right at him and he's naked..... and you know that there is nothing wrong with your eyes.......then what? How do you explain the fact that everyone else seems to see them and you don't. Is this some kind of joke or am I going crazy? lol That was my childhood experience and exactly what I would think at these moments. Of course not everything is like this all the time and that makes it even more confusing. Now you have to discern....what is right and what is wrong? From my point of view at times....it wasn't that hard to figure out but was still left with the rest of what I am talking about (and what you are trying to figure out as well)
Here's a really good example of this from one of these experiences. I have come to understand the entire story pretty accurately at this point but this should help you understand or see the kind of things I am talking about better. I think this will also help explain what I mean by experience over time and knowing the motivations behind these things not just symptoms.....I'll give it to you in the stages as I recall it starting from the event itself and what happened
There was this one time I remember....it was a Sunday when my father was home on the day off. Both my mother and father were into the appearance of our home so many days like this when it was nice outside, they would spend it working on the yard. I usually had to help to some degree (which was the case this day)..but being only 7 or 8 years old at the time.....they use to cut me loose to go play with friends after a couple of hours and not make me work the full day like they did. That was reasonable for a kid that age I think. And I would jump at the chance to get away from that situation as often as I could.
This particular day, I escaped the household and went to see a couple of my best friends at the time (2 brothers)....who lived close by and had a father who was a very successful bar and restaurant owner who I liked a lot and was very nice to me. He was actually very nice to most people and was also was a very generous kind of guy......shirt off your back, salt of the earth, hard working self made man who was a little rough around the edges, cursed and drank like a sailor at times but had risen far above his working class beginnings to become quite wealthy and successful. My father disapproved of this guy and looked down upon him but in reality....he was jealous of him since he was better off than he was despite his rough and seemingly lower class appearance....as my father saw it of course.
What I saw at this age was just a really friendly nice man who always took care of his family (and me) any time I was there and treated me the same as he treated his own family. This was not only different than what I was use to but it was extremely refreshing and bolstering to my self esteem to be included in what I saw was a healthy family dynamic. It was what was missing from my own family and the fact that my friends father was (seemingly) rather open and unpretentious didn't not make me question the rest of what I saw (and how I felt) when I was around the whole family. Again....all my father saw was a "bad influence" and a poor example of what he himself deemed to be less appropriate than him (and all the negatives that I heard to support his reasoning). What I saw and felt was just what I said and between the two......it was an easy decision to make based on just that much right off the bat.
So...on this particular day....I arrived at my friends home right when the family was getting ready to go on some errands together and I was immediately invited to come along which I did in my impulsive and exuberant 8 year old ADHD way of thinking.....this will be great! As it turned out (as I recall)....it was one of the best days I had ever had. The father treated us to a meal I had never had before at one of his friends restaurants,we visited places and met a number of new people I had never been to before and we did a number of things I had never imagined doing involving the restaurant business (behind the scenes in the kitchens and bars helping their father and mother do errands he needed to do and smooze his employees and other business owners) All of this happening without it ever occurring to me what time it was or how long we had been gone. It also never occurred to me to ask in the first place which in part, I was likely to do. In fairness to this situation, I had already established a pattern of disappearing....not only from my ADHD but also for the reasons I already said.
So when we returned home.....I immediately said goodbye and thanked them for taking me with them and then headed home to my house. It was not really late (around 5:00pm I think).....I knew this because when I entered our yard cutting through the back way (still in a wonderful elated mood from only moments before)....my parents were still working outside and I knew that my mother would have been in the house making dinner if it had been excessively late. When my father looked up and saw me.....he made a bee line straight for me and starting hitting and kicking me while raging and screaming at me to go into the house. He trailed behind me the entire way to the door. literally kicking my ass with each step he made like he was trying to kick me up to the house and through the door. I was instructed to go to my room and he remained outside where I still heard him ranting at the top of his lungs to my mother.
Okay...that was my perspective at the time and all I knew. Nothing more was said outside of I should have told them where I was going and how long I was going to be gone. That's a fair request and even I understood this as why my father and mother were angry at me but nothing more was said about this event ever again. I don't remember if any other punishment was levied for this particular insurrection of the rules but if I recall.....no more was said.
Fast forward to now and what I know. This is really what happened that day and you'll just have to take my word for it without going into all the details. This will apply to the story of what you saw in your H's family and why I am bringing this into this discussion.
What that was all about was my father teaching my mother a lesson not me in one respect.....and he was teaching me a lesson that was never stated or said but was really the message he was sending based on all his behavior (in his entire life....he was extremely predictable and rarely varied in his motives)
First....he was demonstrating to her how to deal with me and make me obey the rules and teaching her how to get my respect. This was him doing this with her without saying it directly to her face.
Underneath this however....my mother was a nervous worrier and she had a tendency to catasrophize and blow situations way out of proportion and then start to come unglued and become neurotic. When this happened she could be not only unreasonable or inconsolable...she would drive everyone nuts and be relentless in her fretting and verbalizing to the point that it made everyone want to tear your hair out from frustratingly calm her down and her fighting this by ramping up her own behavior even worse. When 4:00pm rolled around....or whatever time I was supposed to be back....probably around that I think. When I didn't return on time...this meant in my mother mind that I had met with some fiery death between myself and a building exploding, or a water tower falling on me, or Black Panthers traveling 1500 miles in a march and singling out our neighborhood to riot in with the white suburban patrons at the 7 -11. It could happen you know!!! LOL
My father...I am positive....had to hear this kind of thing for the previous hour before I had returned and had hit his limit after only 15 minutes of this as he did. In this case....I was having to pay for him going through this ordeal with my mom and this was also him teaching me "see what happens when you make me go through this with your mother....this is all your fault."
This is how my father communicated these things with us and everyone else he dealt with. If you stand back from this one story and trust I am correct in the things I said......this is a perfect picture of the events and how they took place and the real reason for my fathers behaviors and the reason why he did them. Once this happens to you enough times.....you begin to see these things too since all you are left with in these moments is a raving lunatic who comes raging at you with no real explanation or accountability and no real connection to anything that makes sense on a number of levels.
In the honest reality of this situation. I was impulsive and I did jump before looking as a chronic pattern. I was also in good hands despite my father bias and this in itself was not a bad decision or one my parents would have had a problem with. I was also one hour late but made sure I was home before dinner and my parents hadn't even stopped working for the day and gone inside yet. This was not about making them wait or holding anyone else's plans up or having to change or do anything different for me on my account. In fact....most of the time....they were indifferent to have me around anyway which suited me just fine. This was more the norm and was also not a problem.
This was about exactly what I said and was due to one parent...not being able to communicate or talk to the other one about what was really the problem and why they were having it. In this case.....I was just a prop for a learning exercise that my father was demonstrating to my mother and also making me responsible for my mother neurotic behavior all at the same time. That's what was real and to a much lessor degree than I know now......I could see my that neither of my parents were wearing any clothes but were also not aware of this this fact either. Being the scapegoat does tend to make the ridiculous appear even more so especially when you are the butt of the joke:)
edited addition: Almost forgot one other part of my father's behavior (a very important one) He was also angry that I hung around (chose to spend time with) a father who by all accounts....was richer, most successful and was a better father than he was. I on the other hand.....liked the two brothers as play mates and only spent time there based on them (the man's two sons) I rarely saw their father anyway....he worked long hours and was not around most of the time I was there.
This was part of my father's internal rage and feelings of insecurity and self hatred. It had little to nothing to do with my choice of playmates....more that my choice represented or symbolized the very thing that he somehow knew that he was not. It was a threat but most importantly.....the threat of exposure. On some level....my father realized the same things that I saw which was why he didn't want me to see it by saying everything else (all the negatives) as a means to counter this ahead of time and discredit the threat before it could expose him (or anyone else) to the truth. The truth of this delusion and fantasy that he carried in his head. No one else could see any of this except for him. That's the denial and the rage right there but the rage is the only thing that anyone could see and that is just the symptom of everything else. Like I was saying before.....these symptoms do not tell you why or the entire story or explain the behavior by themselves. I think this is a really good example of this and how these things work in a real life situation. This is the experience (or real life examples) that you need to look at and apply everything to it in order for you to see it and recognize it so it makes any sense. There really are real reason to this but it takes some doing to figure out exactly what you are seeing.
J
"Almost forgot one other part
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
"Almost forgot one other part of my father's behavior (a very important one) He was also angry that I hung around (chose to spend time with) a father who by all accounts....was richer, most successful and was a better father than he was. I on the other hand.....liked the two brothers as play mates and only spent time there based on them (the man's two sons) I rarely saw their father anyway....he worked long hours and was not around most of the time I was there."
Yes, I can see that. My FIL was VERY jealous of men who made more money than he did.
What I have never understood is why his dad ( a total rage who would punch holes in walls) never raised his voice at his wife. She was a terrible mother, terrible at nearly all domestic things, let their kids do whatever they wanted, spent money like crazy, etc. He should have been livid with her.
What I have never understood is why .....
Submitted by kellyj on
What I have never understood is why his dad ( a total rage who would punch holes in walls) never raised his voice at his wife.
Lets assume his dad was a Narc as well? I can even see a possible connect to why your H himself is like he is. I'm saying this because I actually witnessed this scenario with my former employer and his family. He was without question a (confirmed) malignant Narcissist. As it turned out.....I had actually told a few of my former coworkers about finding a good T and they themselves went to see my T at different times. Later.....the assistant Mgr at the time....came to me somewhat sheepishly and ask for my T's number supposedly for her. As it turned....she was doing this for my employers daughter and was just saying it was for her which is exactly part of the same thing that you are seeing too. This became such a weird kizmet in my own therapy which was extremely useful for me for the same reason I just went through my story with you.
My T is bound by confidentiality to not share information between clients about each other.....but in this case since there were 4 (total) of us who all knew each other and talked about our sessions together (except for the bosses daughter).....I could go to him and tell him what was said and on a limited basis without revealing too much information.....at the very least we could talk about my situation and make the same kind of comparisons to help me learn how to see what I was seeing which I found extremely helpful. Anyway.....my T of course had never met my boss....but with 4 different people telling him their own versions of their relationships with the same man (including his own daughter).....it was beyond a shadow of a doubt that we were all talking about the same thing. It was pretty hard for my T not to reference my boss as a Narc and use him as a reference since....my boss was not a client of his. It's was too funny if you stop and think about it. After a while....I didn't need my T having to confirm this to me either.....I was beginning to see the exact same things becoming clear to me which was an interesting vantage point to have. Going to work and working for a man who was so similar to my father also helped me gain a completely new (and much healthier) perspective of my past from this experience. It also proved to be pretty entertaining at the same time:)
So based on this information....this is what I saw and what I think the answer is to the question you are asking?
Thinking like a Narcissist here.......you (and everyone else) are just objects right. Either you are in...or you are out. Black and white...good or bad? People who are in.....serve you and represent you and how you want to appear to the outside world. Exposure is the worst things that can happen to you right? So....in my bosses delusion or fantasy that he created in his head.....his family were also perfect representatives of him (his perfect extensions). Including his wife. His wife however....different than my mother......was a Top from the Bottom manipulator herself. She used this against her husband to gain control over him in certain ways. She could be very devious and back stabbing and would stop at nothing to get what she wanted. I do believe she was BPD and from what I have read on this topic....BPD can tie a Narc into knots and manipulate them very well with under the right circumstances. I suspect as much. Anyway....we all (the workers) watched this drama unfold and could clearly see how the mother (and daughters) played out their little histrionic version of a happy family and playing their father behind his back since he needed his story about himself and anyone in it...to be (or appear) perfect. They were just pawns in his story....and he was just a pawn or dupe (their source of supply) for theirs. We all knew if there was a conflict in this family because they would all stop talking to each other (his whole family worked together with us at his business) and my boss would start kicking the dogs ie: his employees but say nothing ever to his wife. This would be the equivalent of raging and punching holes in the walls instead I think. You never saw him yell at his wife but....we also saw the reason why from her end. She would make him pay emotionally and withhold from him. She was very good a being deceptively manipulative herself. This kicking the dog aspect (punching holes in the wall, or me in my case) was so similar to my own experience (even the story I just told you when I was a child) that it was hard to imagine how completely predictable and consistent this completely different person was in his behavior to the ones I knew from growing up. It was absolutely astounding!!
The difference between my boss's family and my own was that my father was a tyrant and lorded over everyone including my mom. My mom had little control or power over my dad and could not manipulate him. In my boss's family however.....his wife was Top from the Bottom and at the end of the day....had the absolute last word with my boss. Why? She held the money card. She had her own money from family which I suspect is what set my boss up into business in the first place...if I recall....I think the original loan came from her family.
Comparing the two....I was not a good extension (prop, billboard, outward example)...however you phrase it for my father to represent to the outside world which is what is most important. I was not in...I was out. That's how that worked. My mom needed to keep things in line the way he wanted it and I was not in line. In that regard....my mom herself was out of line. That's how that worked. If the extension (or object) in charge of outward appearance for a Narc is not doing their job...then they can be yelled at to if there is some kind of threat involved.
But if the object (in my boss's case).....also has some power or something on you and is playing along and representing your perfection....their in and need to be sheltered or protected. You can't yell at the perfection of yourself can you?.....especially when their is some price to pay. Price in this particular family was real Cash money...that was the means of exchange or currency.
For my father (and his insecurity)....the means of exchange or currency was respect. Money was a close second but not the primary means of exchange. There was absolutely no way my boss's wife (for example) would have ever gotten that kind of control or power with my father. Respect and dominance over cash but absolute control over cash as well. He would never have allowed anyone to control him with money or anything else and would never share control like I saw with my boss.
At least in my case....these lines were pretty clear cut and well defined. In the case with my boss.....the whole family was living in their own world of manipulation, deception and utter disregard for each other which seemed to be par for the course. Every man or woman for themselves all in a race for the pot of gold and they were all living in the same delusional world (the same pretentious play of outward appearances) together where you do not yell at or argue with perfection that is....each other. Unless one of them step out of line is not holding up appearance and not representing each other outwardly. In that case you try and hide it and make it go away as fast as possible or blame someone else for whatever that one member did that was wrong. (outside of the family) That is (instead).....you yell at the next best thing as a release valve for all that shame.
So as I read what you were saying about your H's family and how he believed his parents were perfect despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary....what it appears like to me from all that I just said that he had been accepted into the dysfunction and bought into for that reason. He became more part of it than separate from it like I was witnessing in the case with my boss and his family.
In my case.....I was ostracized early which in many respects as I see it now.....was a blessing in disguise. I have to be thankful for all that there is to be thankful for and I feel blessed and happy in so many ways because it. I do feel extremely sad for my boss and his family.....not one of them are happy and appear miserable and angry inside all the time which is just a daily part of life in that perfect outward world that my boss has created for them. I also feel that same sadness for my father since I know he suffered in the same way and could never truly find peace or happiness inside. I don't believe he ever did as far as I could tell :(
J
PS I remembered something my T once said about my former employer. He said.....archetypically......he was the (boy) Prince ( like George W Bush)....and his wife was a Queen. The daughters of course were both Princesses and remain that way to this day.... like their father who remained a Prince but never became a King.
At my house.....the roles of King and Queen were pretty well defined and there was absolutely no question who the King was. lol
A Second Thought
Submitted by kellyj on
to what I said. (in addition to) What you described can also be a symptom of denial in itself I think. That's still leaves the question .. "denial of what?" Connect the dots:)
J
Adding to above...
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
I remember when H and I were first married and we both worked for a company that was about a 60-90 minute drive from home.
Sometimes, on the way home from work, we'd stop for a bite to eat to wait for traffic to subside. H would always have me pick the restaurant.
HOWEVER, I stopped picking after this incident: One restaurant had VERY slow service. And the food came out wrong. On the way home, H erupted into a string of expletives telling me that I had F'd up. He kept saying that over and over....just because I chose the restaurant. It was shocking.
Expectations are adjusted every day
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
In reading and rereading this thread, what I know I personally have come to understand, is that there are indeed some things my spouse will never excel at - just as there are some things I will never excel at. On a positive note, when I look at the list of things my spouse can excel at, that list is huge.
LOL, One example to demonstrate what I mean: If you were to move a picture that my spouse had hung on the wall, you will find behind that picture, one nail, smack dab inb the middle of one of the wall studs. If you move a picture Liz had hung, you will inevitably find a myriad of holes that I made while missing the stud, or hanging it too high/low, etc.
I accept and can easily learn to work with symptoms ADHD sends my way. The Mars versus Venus, male and female dynamics, too. We are built differently.
Finding ways for a couple to live together in some sort of harmony, with the acknowledgement and validation of problems - now that is where I run into problems every time. Life is both good times and bad. Smooth days and days where just about everything that can go wrong, does.
I love my spouse. I do not love the difficult dynamics that arise with conflict. Liz sees conflict as 'things to be negotiated' or 'worked through.' I do not see conflict as the measuring stick of how good or how poor our marriage is. 'The ability to work through conflict,' 'to compromise', 'to negotiate,' to ride out an uncomfortable emotion and see that 'the fear of i't is much worse than the end result - those are the measuring stick.
Can I learn to be content and comfortable with avoiding conflict at all costs? No.
I do have wants, feelings, desires, gifts, and all the unique part of Liz that I want to be cherished and honored and valued. I want to be heard. I want to agree to disagree. I want to be measured up against no one else.
I truly believe my spouse when he says those are my issues and there is nothing he can do about them. Do I like it? No. Liz does not like that. Not one whit.
Liz
A new day
Submitted by Wifelife88 on
JJamieson and I’m So Exhausted –such wisdom! I love and relate to your posts – they bring me so much comfort. J – I wish I could bottle you up and deliver you to my husband to show there is hope. I’m So Exhausted – your story has many similarities I almost feel I am writing your posts. I have been married for 23 years with the same challenges and ups and downs as most on this forum highlight.
My husband D was officially diagnosed with ADD last year after 14 years of on and off again mild depression. He had a bullying incident at work 2 years ago and has not worked since. I work fulltime and do all the cooking and housework as well. He started on stimulants (dexamphetamines) in April 2014 (also on Prozac). It has been a downward spiral for our marriage ever since. Our household has been a battlefield. The children are over it. He has had episodes of paranoia and massive mood swings. With the dexis ‘making him feel again’ - he has seen the light and now believes that I am the cause for all of his issues. I have downtrodden him, belittled him, made him into a shell of a man. He is now a victim. Everything he sees is someone trying to get at him and point him down. At one point I was a narcissist with no empathy. I have a personality disorder. He cannot budge from this view. At times I started to doubt myself – that maybe he was right. I have always been the rock solid one – the one to go to in a crisis. Not always perfect – and you will definitely know if I am not happy! I have been working on that for several years now and I believe I am calmer and more relaxed now than at any time in my life. A couple of events happened last year that he had an opposing view to me (assisting my aging parents, and a holiday I took with 3 of the kids) – and he is hanging onto these as evidence that I have changed and have so tremendously hurt him that he is not ‘safe’ anymore.
We have been in marriage counselling since February plus I have had some personal counselling. Our long standing pattern is that D has an outburst and I will shut down. By shutting down you become invisible and your own feelings and needs become lost in the drama that is D. I have learnt to start opening up and have finally reached a place of peace and calm. I am comfortable where I am. For our marriage to continue I need D to see the marriage as distinct from him or me. D believes I am the cause of his problems. He seems to have forgotten all about working with his ADD. He doesn’t want to be unwell – he doesn’t want his issues to be seen as the heart of our marriage problems. I don’t believe they are – but they are indeed a major factor in his ability to move forward – to think about us rather than him. Even the most innocent of my comments to him will be taken out of context and set him off on path of rage, or woe and misery. I feel incapable of having any conversation. Life is constantly walking on egg shells. You cannot risk having a bad day as there is no safe place to fall. On his good days he says that he knows that I do not ‘get’ what it is he wants and needs, what I am doing to him – that I am not capable of it - but he is prepared to accept it. Wow – so hard to hear that from someone you love. I feel his pain but I am powerless to help him.
I am now happy to move on. I am in a good place. I have shown support and compassion to the best of my abilities. I have learnt to de-escalate issues. I have learnt that one argument isn’t the end of the world – just a blip on the radar. I have learnt to work around any ADD characteristics. And I continue to learn. D deserves to be happy – as do I. We both deserve to be heard. I cannot live with a husband who is just tolerating me – blaming me for his issues. I am strong – but not that strong. The ball is now in his court. We can start today a new day and leave all the crap behind – or else D will need to go down his path alone.
I can relate....
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
My H constantly blamed me for everything. In his eyes, I was the cause of all our problems and all of his problems. His family, who we rarely see because they live 2000 miles away, believed his "stories" (lies) and convinced him to file for divorce.
The first couple of months, there was absolutely no contact, which was FINE with me (peace and quiet!!) I had a jolly good time with our kids. In the meantime, H was miserable all alone in his apartment. Life still frustrated him, even when I wasn't around (ha ha). He still constantly lost things, constantly locked his keys in his car, constantly broke things, etc. (The first week, he had to call the Auto Club THREE times to unlock his car!) Then after a couple of months, he called one of our kids and found out that we were all on vacation. lol
Sometimes people like this (denial and blaming everyone else) needs to have reality slap them in the face.
moving target
Submitted by dvance on
Read the whole thread--can't decide which post to comment upon! Expectations are so hard--I feel like every day I am aiming at a moving target--what is DH like today--"present"??? out to lunch? angry? easy going? doing things? face in the computer? answering questions clearly? never giving a straight answer no matter how many questions I ask? it's a crap shoot what he is like on any given day, moment to moment really. that is the hard part for me.