This is a vent. It's not here to teach anyone anything or to be informative. I'm not writing this to help anyone other than for those to hear my thoughts and why I am angry. I'm going to speak the only way I know how....and that is from the heart. In those terms....I'm not going to explain myself to anyone or apologize for the way I feel. I'm going to use terms I'm familiar with to speak how I feel about this seemingly never ending and all the unresolved issues that spring from it..... that I cannot say to my wife without upsetting her or making her angry and hostile towards me. This inability she has is not from a lack or something....but more from an unwillingness and a choice.
And honestly....I do know what makes me angry and "What" is making me so angry in the first place. I know why. But for anyone reading this, you'll just have to get the parts that you don't understand in context and figure those parts out for yourself. The same as I do. I won't explain myself to you. These are only "MY" emotions talking. And with my emotions.....come my judgments, my assumptions, my accusations and my condemnations and the conclusions that go with it.
There is no "WE" here. I'm not picking sides or speaking to one group, gender or another. I'm speaking from the direct frustrations I'm feeling in relationship to just one person, my wife and no one else. She's the only person I know well enough, to make these statements about since I don't know anyone else here or whomever might be reading this well enough to make any judgments or conclusions about them in the same way. I'm am completely without the knowledge and ability to do that with anyone other than my wife. The person I live with, deal with and have these problems with and no one else. In my heart of hearts.. I am no different than anyone else, when it comes to how I feel...and my emotions that follow. These are my feelings and emotions...and they do not extend to anyone else beyond ME.
These feelings and emotions that I am expressing....are directed solely at ONE person. It's just a vent of anger. It doesn't belong in the "slug box" because when I'm angry....I don't want to "Slug" anyone. It's just a vent. Probably the first real "vent" that I have made here on the forum. And in my mind....and vent means anger exclusively since anger is my only reason to vent in the first place. All my other emotions....I can process and deal by myself...for myself. It's what venting is as I know it and anger is the only reason to vent in the first place. That is...to help get rid of it.
The anger I am feeling right now....is a result of the frustration I feel. It's the same feeling I have anytime I feel like I'm fighting someone who I see as ignorant, mentally lazy, weak minded and has no motivation what so ever in putting forth the effort learn, grow and advance as a human being and can only see as far as the eye can see because of this lack of effort and a refusal to be uncomfortable...which narrows this right down to stupidity.
Stupidity goes hand in hand with a refusal and a choice....not to "think" for herself, figure things out for herself, and find answers for herself. She's a smart woman and can do this. I've seen her do it countless times. Being born smart or with a high IQ is not the same as being stupid. You can be both. Stupidity and ignorance is a choice. Everyone starts out being ignorant and without knowledge. Staying that way is stupid .Anything she might says otherwise is pure Bullshit.
I'm the one with ADHD. I'm the one who has executive function challenges. I have emotional abuse in my childhood (as well) and I can think for myself and find my own answers to things....on my own. If I can do it. She can. Stupidity is a choice made from laziness and and unwillingness to be uncomfortable and from wanting or expecting someone else to do this for you. As far as I'm concerned....there is no excuse for stupidity and "Stupid People SUCK". Taken right from the bumper sticker. IMHO!!
I'm angry because my wife seems to be devoid emotional unintelligent. She is quite intelligent as far as IQ goes, but she is a creature of the moment. She is ruled by her emotions and cannot "think" her way out of anything. She appears to only be able to use one side of her brain at all times. The side where emotionalism comes from. The side where your heart lives. The side where creativity comes from. I'm an Artist...I know this side of my brain very well. It was a gift I was born with...and I'm also a Man.
She lacks common sense. The ability to problem solve and she cannot seem to "figure it out"..... without someone else to help her make a simple decision concerning anything. She seems consistently in a state of confusion and not knowing what to do....about anything. She tries to use her emotions to make decisions, to use for good judgment, to determine how she feels or thinks about anything on a cognitive level regarding making decisions that govern her life. Her emotions have control of her and she cannot see the forest from the trees seemingly ever...with no ability to use reason or critical thinking in terms of the other side of her brain. That side....is one needed to functionally do all those things and with her....it appears to sit a perpetual state of dormancy and atrophy from lack of use and for no other reason. That's her fault and her responsibility and no one else can be blamed for this travesty of life.
The reason I say this is because she has proven to me that she can learn. She's just mentally lazy with no motivation to be any different. Why should she? She has me to use to do that for her? She has this Fucked Up idea that men are suppose to do this for women and women don't need to learn these things. This belief that men and woman are completely different in their ability to think and feel emotions is just wrong and the facts of evidence support this with mountains of research in this study.
Men and woman are different is some ways for sure. Even recent studies have proven that our brains are subtly different. There has been no proven research however....that has shown that men and women IQ levels are significantly different. None. Which means.....everyone has the ability to learn and think and there is no excuse to be made between the two genders.
Critical Thinking as defined: Critical thinking provides the crucial link between intelligence and emotions in the "emotionally intelligent" person. Critical thinking is the only plausible vehicle by means of which we could bring intelligence to bear upon our emotional life. It is critical thinking, and critical thinking alone, which enables us to take an active command of not only our thoughts, but our feelings, emotions, and desires as well. It is critical thinking which provides us with the mental tools needed to explicitly understand how reasoning works, and how those tools can be used to take command of what we think, feel, desire, and do.
No one is born this ability. No one is born emotionally intelligent from anything that I know or have learned myself in this area. It is a learned skill that requires effort to learn. Unless you have some kind of mental disorder involved... anyone can learn to be emotionally intelligent. The ability and capacity is there in all of us....the only thing stopping anyone is a lack of motivation and an unwillingness to feel discomfort and just being lazy and looking for the easy way out. The big score so you won't need to and just avoiding acquiring this skill because it's "HARD". Fucking A it's "HARD". Tell me about it?
Not doing something because it's "HARD"....is the definition of stupidity in my mind. How can I say such a thing? I have a mental disorder....and I am an emotionally intelligent person. I didn't start out that way....but I learned how to be that way through a great deal of effort, not being lazy, and a great deal of discomfort to get there. And the reason I did this despite all my challenges, what ever IQ level I have (unknown?) and the abilities God gave me along with the ones he didn't......is because I'm not stupid. That's the one and only reason.
Between lack of IQ, lack of talent, lack of ability and the handicaps that mental disorders like having ADHD presents me. Given the choice of having all those things and not having ADHD......I'd pick the ability to be emotionally intelligence and the ability to think critically....over all of them hands down in a heart beat. Because I'm not Stupid....and those are my feelings as to why that is. If given the choice of being a Genius level IQ or being Emotionally Intelligent.....there is only one choice to make here. A genius...can be stupid.....and someone who is emotionally intelligent but of a lower IQ almost by definition is a whole lot smarter than a genius level IQ.
Stupid..... is a choice: from not wanting too putting in the effort to get there and the discomfort as the price you pay..... and just being mentally lazy and looking for someone to do this for you all your life as far as I'm concerned. There's no excuse for that. Adversity...is no excuse for being stupid. If you don't think I see these things in myself, or see myself as better than, or don't think I have my own areas of stupidity....think again. The only difference I see between my self and my wife, is she refuses to see them and that's what in my mind is the biggest tragedy of all and the reason why I think she's stupid many times and why I do not trust her ability for good judgment and in general....and lack of all common sense what so ever as a result of it. That's what stupid does to you IMHO
Thank you for allowing to say what I really feel and think. It's just a vent of my unwanted emotions. I hear this kind of thing verbalized to me all the time without reservation on my wife part. She vents her own version of this to me while I'm sitting in the same room with her and cannot figure out what's wrong with doing that? That's because she's stupid and I'm not. I'm doing it here instead...for all the reasons I just said. I appreciate a place that I can go and do this. It's just a vent of anger.....I know what what I'm feeling, what my emotions are, why I have them, what they are connected to and know the difference between my emotions and my feelings and can differentiate them mostly.....right there in the moment. That doesn't mean I always control them... but that's a completely separate thing and a different story.
I know what I feel, I know which emotions are which...and I can identify and differentiate between them and use both sides of my brain in order to do this which gives me the ability to process my emotions by myself. There is no confusion in mind about these things. I am an emotionally intelligent person and I have the earned and learned ability to think "critically".... no matter what my wife thinks. Actually....she doesn't "Think"....she uses her emotions to do that for her.
My wife is an honest, sincere and completely trust worthy person...until she her emotions start taking over her thinking process. I trust my wife implicitly. What I don't trust is her thought process, her conclusions that she makes and the way she arrives at those conclusions. I see and hear these conclusions and see how she got there daily. And it verifies and confirms exactly what I just said from the very conclusions and the decisions that come from them which clearly say to me....that something is clearly missing. That is the only thing about my wife....that I do not trust...without reservation. And because of this thing missing....is why she gets angry at me more often than any other reason I can clearly see. It's why I'm angry about it. She thinks it's me who's missing something here. The only thing missing....is her ability to see herself and know what she is feeling and what her emotions are and which one is which. You need the other side of your brain for that one and she refuses to use it and keeps trying to use my ability to fill in for what she is missing and gets angry when I don't. This makes me angry!!! That isn't my "JOB" even if she refuses to think it isn't.
J
The Results of What I Said
Submitted by kellyj on
I ran across this article on cognitive distortions. As a result of someone who can only think with their emotions....this is what happens to you when you cannot use critical thinking to "Think" instead of "Feel"
Cognitive Distortions
Aaron Beck first proposed the theory behind cognitive distortions and David Burns was responsible for popularizing it with common names and examples for the distortions.
1. Filtering.
We take the negative details and magnify them while filtering out all positive aspects of a situation. For instance, a person may pick out a single, unpleasant detail and dwell on it exclusively so that their vision of reality becomes darkened or distorted.
2. Polarized Thinking (or “Black and White” Thinking).
In polarized thinking, things are either “black-or-white.” We have to be perfect or we’re a failure — there is no middle ground. You place people or situations in “either/or” categories, with no shades of gray or allowing for the complexity of most people and situations. If your performance falls short of perfect, you see yourself as a total failure.
3. Overgeneralization.
In this cognitive distortion, we come to a general conclusion based on a single incident or a single piece of evidence. If something bad happens only once, we expect it to happen over and over again. A person may see a single, unpleasant event as part of a never-ending pattern of defeat.
4. Jumping to Conclusions.
Without individuals saying so, we know what they are feeling and why they act the way they do. In particular, we are able to determine how people are feeling toward us.
For example, a person may conclude that someone is reacting negatively toward them but doesn’t actually bother to find out if they are correct. Another example is a person may anticipate that things will turn out badly, and will feel convinced that their prediction is already an established fact.
5. Catastrophizing.
We expect disaster to strike, no matter what. This is also referred to as “magnifying or minimizing.” We hear about a problem and use what if questions (e.g., “What if tragedy strikes?” “What if it happens to me?”).
For example, a person might exaggerate the importance of insignificant events (such as their mistake, or someone else’s achievement). Or they may inappropriately shrink the magnitude of significant events until they appear tiny (for example, a person’s own desirable qualities or someone else’s imperfections).
With practice, you can learn to answer each of these cognitive distortions.
6. Personalization.
Personalization is a distortion where a person believes that everything others do or say is some kind of direct, personal reaction to the person. We also compare ourselves to others trying to determine who is smarter, better looking, etc.
A person engaging in personalization may also see themselves as the cause of some unhealthy external event that they were not responsible for. For example, “We were late to the dinner party and caused the hostess to overcook the meal. If I had only pushed my husband to leave on time, this wouldn’t have happened.”
7. Control Fallacies.
If we feel externally controlled, we see ourselves as helpless a victim of fate. For example, “I can’t help it if the quality of the work is poor, my boss demanded I work overtime on it.” The fallacy of internal control has us assuming responsibility for the pain and happiness of everyone around us. For example, “Why aren’t you happy? Is it because of something I did?”
8. Fallacy of Fairness.
We feel resentful because we think we know what is fair, but other people won’t agree with us. As our parents tell us when we’re growing up and something doesn’t go our way, “Life isn’t always fair.” People who go through life applying a measuring ruler against every situation judging its “fairness” will often feel badly and negative because of it. Because life isn’t “fair” — things will not always work out in your favor, even when you think they should.
9. Blaming.
We hold other people responsible for our pain, or take the other track and blame ourselves for every problem. For example, “Stop making me feel bad about myself!” Nobody can “make” us feel any particular way — only we have control over our own emotions and emotional reactions.
10. Shoulds.
We have a list of ironclad rules about how others and we should behave. People who break the rules make us angry, and we feel guilty when we violate these rules. A person may often believe they are trying to motivate themselves with shoulds and shouldn’ts, as if they have to be punished before they can do anything.
For example, “I really should exercise. I shouldn’t be so lazy.” Musts and oughts are also offenders. The emotional consequence is guilt. When a person directs should statements toward others, they often feel anger, frustration and resentment.
11. Emotional Reasoning.
We believe that what we feel must be true automatically. If we feel stupid and boring, then we must be stupid and boring. You assume that your unhealthy emotions reflect he way things really are — “I feel it, therefore it must be true.”
12. Fallacy of Change.
We expect that other people will change to suit us if we just pressure or cajole them enough. We need to change people because our hopes for happiness seem to depend entirely on them.
13. Global Labeling.
We generalize one or two qualities into a negative global judgment. These are extreme forms of generalizing, and are also referred to as “labeling” and “mislabeling.” Instead of describing an error in context of a specific situation, a person will attach an unhealthy label to themselves.
For example, they may say, “I’m a loser” in a situation where they failed at a specific task. When someone else’s behavior rubs a person the wrong way, they may attach an unhealthy label to him, such as “He’s a real jerk.” Mislabeling involves describing an event with language that is highly colored and emotionally loaded. For example, instead of saying someone drops her children off at daycare every day, a person who is mislabeling might say that “she abandons her children to strangers.”
14. Always Being Right.
We are continually on trial to prove that our opinions and actions are correct. Being wrong is unthinkable and we will go to any length to demonstrate our rightness. For example, “I don’t care how badly arguing with me makes you feel, I’m going to win this argument no matter what because I’m right.” Being right often is more important than the feelings of others around a person who engages in this cognitive distortion, even loved ones.
15. Heaven’s Reward Fallacy.
We expect our sacrifice and self-denial to pay off, as if someone is keeping score. We feel bitter when the reward doesn’t come.
And this is why I'm angry since my wife does all of these all of the time and refuses to "Think" and only go with her emotions and where they lead her in her mind. That is.....right to every one of these distortions right down the list.
And as she thinks in these terms.....she thinks everyone is like this including me. WRONG!!!!
She refuses to look at what she simply cannot know herself and immediately jumps to the conclusion that everyone is just like her.
That defines what being "Stupid" is in my mind. Sorry....still venting my anger that is directly at me instead of herself and the way she got there. She refuses to look because it might make her "feel" bad.
Tough. Get over it. This causes me to feel bad so she won't have to. That's just weak minded, Stupid and no excuse at all.
J
Last Night....My Wife Said to Me..
Submitted by kellyj on
"You told me once that we are different and we speak different languages" I said "yes...it comes from how we see the same thing differently" As I explained this to her...I said "If you took 10 people off the street and had them witness the same simple event....you would on average...get a pretty close description of what they all saw. You might have a couple that would be a little different that the rest...and you might have a couple that sound like they saw something completely different than everyone else. You know....the bell shaped curve?"
And her answer to me was..."I see this differently. I think everyone is going to see things differently and no two people see things the same way."
There is no point in arguing this with her since...she is the one I think....who is on the fringe. The 2-4 people who see things quite a bit differently than everyone else and it's because of these distortions. As she said to me....."everyone has distortions" you do too.
Yes of course. I'm not free from distortions and I have some favorite areas that I need some work on. But as I witness them myself and hear her say this....she's really saying that she knows she has these distortions all the time and is aware of them as well. She tells me she aware of them and admits to having them. This I have no problem with and don't judge her for having them at all. We're all human.
There is one event that I keep bringing her back to that I found she can relate with and that is with her own brother. We were out of town a busy resort beach and found a place we wanted to eat. It was a very crowded day and we found a court yard to sit down and grab a bite to eat directly in front of where we gabbed a table. My wife and I went inside to get the food and then came back out to find her bother had disappeared. The table we had picked was obviously that was exclusive to the place next door and they were setting up for a big party and moving things around in order to accommodate the group. Right next to those tables...were the ones that belonged to the food vendor we chose to get food from plus a whole row of empty stool and a bar along the outside immediately in front of the food vendor itself.
We ended up sitting on the stools and were looking around for her brother who was no where in sight. Finally...after we were just finished our food...we see her brother wandering around out of the side walk but right in front of the court yard and had the look like he was visibly upset. We finished up quickly and went out to see what was wrong. He didn't respond and didn't want to talk about it so we continued on with sight seeing and walking around.
Finally....her brother started ranting and carrying on about some guy who had completely disrespected him back at the court yard table who told him to move because he was sitting in wrong place and did so very rudely as if he was some kind of vagrant just loitering at the tables and not buying anything from any of the vendors and just "threw him out like a bum." At this point he was thinking about going back to chew him out he felt so angry and disrespected by this guy.
The problem was as I witnessed the same thing myself after her bother just got up and left and didn't say a word to this guy and then stewed for 20 minutes over this before he said anything was exactly what I saw happen. One of the waiters was going around and telling people that they needed to move so they could use those tables for the big party they had coming. He was neither rude or particularly clear that all he wanted was just for people to move OVER a table or two so since those tables were the property of a different vendor. I could clearly see he was rushed and trying to get set up the this next group to come in and he was more just stating things as a matter of fact without a lot a fluff in his delivery.
When we tried to explain that to her brother...he became even more angry since now he felt embarrassed for how he handled it and what he actually believed was happening that wasn't. He had taken a harmless and rather obvious kind of everyday occurrence the world of the restaurant business and turned into a major offense to her person of some kind and now there was my wife, myself and another friend of my wife's all telling him he had it wrong. An d doing this as nicely as a person possibly could to prevent him from going back and making a bigger scene or problem than it already was for him. In fact...at that point,no one cared or even noticed what he did except for us....but if he had gone back to do what he was thinking about doing... and just about ready to do. Was make a scene, embarrass himself even more and probably piss a bunch of people off who would have had every right to do so or at the very least, have no idea what he was talking about which would have brought on or then actually cause the very thing he believed was happening...by the very behavior that would cause someone to throw you out and force you to leave by doing so.
No one saw what her brother saw except him. In this case....even my wife saw it too. She's never been that that bad or over sensitive like her brother is. But when she gets locked in like that and see's things that aren't happening just the same way. She'll come at me later in the same way her brother was intending...all pissed off with feather ruffled and I have no idea what just happened??
When I asked her...she tell me what she is angry about which she see it as something to do with me or what I had done sometime in the past and is just now venting it all out which comes as a complete surprise?
But if you picture me being that waiter now....and her brother coming to chew him out over what he did to him...and that waiter is listening to this guy just go off on him about something he didn't do. What do you think you could say to her brother...to tell him otherwise in the moment he believes that everything that just happened to him was exactly what it was. Without asking questions. Without any response at the time of the original request...and now a 1/2 hour later....there's this crazy person chewing you out for no apparent reason?
And yet....my wife knows she has these distortions in the same way....witnessed this in real time and tells me she's aware of it....but does nothing to change it...gets no help to find answers....and just continues to do it without considering the most important part in all of this.
It's not about doing it for yourself. It's about doing it for the people who have to deal ith YOUR distortions of reality and the offense this causes them!!! Myself, the waiter....or who ever else just happens to do something wrong or say it in a way that is completely taken out of context and the only person who has any clue is the person doing it and who has these distortions.
As my wife put it to me just the other day. My brother and I have hurt each other from this in the past.... but he understands it the same as I do and still knows I love him and he loves me.
Well...that's all good and fine....but what about the rest of the world who doesn't understand it the same as you two who feel hurt...but has no way to understand?
Like me?? That was just another way of her telling herself that she doesn't need to do anything about it since at least one person thinks it's acceptable and he Loves her anyway.
Can you see with in that last comment....how she's still saying it's still somehow my problem and I should Love her anyway and if I don't....I'm not living up to the expectations that she and her brother have for each other in the same way...."If you really Love me like a brother or family member?"
She's aware of it....see's it....and even admits to it......but won't do a thing about it since how this affect others is the one thing missing here...and she even admits that and that she has hurt her own brother from this very thing.
J
No one is born this ability.
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
No one is born this ability. No one is born emotionally intelligent from anything that I know or have learned myself in this area. It is a learned skill that requires effort to learn. Unless you have some kind of mental disorder involved... anyone can learn to be emotionally intelligent. The ability and capacity is there in all of us....the only thing stopping anyone is a lack of motivation and an unwillingness to feel discomfort and just being lazy and looking for the easy way out. The big score so you won't need to and just avoiding acquiring this skill because it's "HARD". Fucking A it's "HARD". Tell me about it?
Is it possible that this ability must be developed in our brains when we are babies, toddlers, children? That's why it's so important for our parents to love us, nurture us, connect with us. If that part of our brain doesn't develop when it's supposed to, will it ever be able to develop?
i have seen some research regarding newborn babies whose mother's have post partum depression. The babies brain scans are actually different because their depressed mothers aren't able to connect with them.
I have another theory as well. I have witnessed people who seemed to stop maturing emotionally at a point in their lives that was physically or emotionally traumatic. I have seen a teenager become addicted to drugs and many decades later still have the emotional maturity of a teenager. My MIL and FIL had a shotgun wedding at age seventeen. To this very day my MIL still has the emotional maturity of a seventeen year old. My FIL was extremely immature until his death. In fact, his complete lack of maturity was probably the cause of his death. It's as if their brains stopped developing due to extreme physical or mental stress.
it seems possible to me that emotional development can be prevented all together or stopped in its tracks. If this happens, I'm not sure if the problem can be corrected. Maybe these are the mental disorders that you mention. Maybe the vast majority of us are walking around with undiagnosed mental disorders??
I'm definitely not calling you out or saying you're wrong. I'm just thinking out loud. I've had to deal with a lot of emotional toddlers in my life that can only see one side of every situation. I feel for you and your situation.
I Think You Are Right On Track... HH
Submitted by kellyj on
I almost made a new post in a discovery I just made but since you brought this up...I think this might be the key. It's a big one too.
Following my gut this time.....I created this vent post from the anger I was feeling. I didn't over think it....I just wrote my feelings as I said. Going back to where this all started. I was feeling really good about myself and very optimistic about my wife...until she had another one of her episodes as I called them which I took a hit to my heart and everything crashed.
The first thing I felt was hurt. The second thing I felt was depressed which caused my state of mind to go from positive to negative. The third thing I felt was frustration and then the anger ensued. Once I got angry...I started noticing those distortions creeping into my thoughts.
Ah ha! Distortions? That's when I looked up the list I included. I started to get really curious about this so I spent some time researching again. Low and behold in the articles I read about disorders in relationship to distortions?
It's these distortion or distorted thinking that cause all the communication problems you read here on this forum. Right down the list. The same ones I have to face with my wife. I suddenly realized something from what was said. Negative thought patterns....ARE distortions period.
If you are inherently an optimist and a positive person as I am...you're going to experience a whole lot less distortions in your thinking. The more negativity you experience...the more distortions you'll have. And the more distortions you have...the more anxiety and depression you'll end experiencing. And part of this is the endless worrying that comes along with it. It all goes neatly together....1, 2 ,3
And along with that....comes that feeling like you are changing or losing yourself (or your identity)
This is exactly what just happened to me in a nut shell right down the line. This is and has been my biggest complaint with my wife since we've been together. I have to take credit for my part in this since....my ADHD symptoms really hit a nerve in my wife. Having said that....I've lived with other people before and not had such a strong reaction in comparison.
As I stand back objectively now....my wife's issues have been there for her entire life starting with her own mother who was one of the most negative people I have ever met. Talk about a downer. She could suck all the air out a room in no time flat and leave everyone gasping for a breath of fresh air. The negativity you experienced from just walking into the room was so thick you could cut it with a knife.
And this was the person that my wife grew up with. I think you are not that far off the mark here HH. What you said here..."it seems possible to me that emotional development can be prevented all together or stopped in its tracks. If this happens, I'm not sure if the problem can be corrected. Maybe these are the mental disorders that you mention. Maybe the vast majority of us are walking around with undiagnosed mental disorders??"
How about anyone who has had more negative experiences in the their childhood...or even those you mentioned who stopped developing later if they had some kind of life altering negative experience like the death of a parent or the parents getting divorced?
And Gottsmans magic ratio of 5 positive to everyone 1 negative experiences come right into play here. It seems to fall right in place?
The amazing thing I watched in myself over the last few days was exactly that. I went from positive to negative from the one negative experience which which started that down hill spiral. It took me a while to pull myself back out and I'm right back on track again.
The problem for my wife is....she stuck in that negative loop since she was there for so long without a break. Her mother was an emotional vampire and just sucked the life out of anyone who came near her and my wife is still struggling to find her way out of it.
Here's what I've learned about her and just observing her closely. She is extremely susceptible to become negative even if there is nothing negative happening to her. She really is a victim of her environment and needing things to be a very specific way or she starts to lose her grip. It's where all her controlling behavior is coming from. She really can't see this as clearly as I can....but her positive moments are tenuous at best. Anything external that triggers her into those negative thought patterns and distortions will cause her to slip and go straight down hill until she hits bottom. That's when the depression kicks in. And along with that...her anxiety. Once she's there for too long...she has one of her famous episodes and the dam bursts with a flood of negativity to release it all at once. That;s when she loses all rational thinking and becomes that little girl having a tantrum. It's the only behavior she knows how to get what she wants in those more desperate times of trying to manage her emotions and she's hit that critical level. It definitely has a cyclical time table all it's own and I'm starting to get pretty good at predict when that ticking time bomb with go off again.
As I see it....the distortion that is really perpetuating this cycle has to do with OCD which is just that repetative loop of anxiety, worrying and depression ...over and over and over without end. This must suck for her....but at the same time....this is what she has no idea of her self and will just fight me tooth and nail in trying to talk about it with her. It's all that negative talk inside her head that prevents her from talking about it since she is so internally vulnerable to anything that might break loose what little control she's got. Any sign of anything critical towards her will put her over the edge. I think this is really what the denial is all about. Self protection from any more negatively than she already experiences on a daily basis.
The problem is....she's trying to control it from the outside and control anything (as she see's it) that puts that fine line at risk or will cause her any kind of negative experience but...., as we know....you can't get there from here. You can't fix this problem from the outside in. It has to be done from the inside out.
And the amazingly simple answer is positive thinking to replace the negative thought patterns. Simple answer...not simple to apply or to get out of the negative loop.
The problem for me is....I don't have a problem staying positive since I'm starting there as my nature. I just have to keep myself there in the face of someone who's mostly negative or at the very least....is riding the fine line all the time and anything can upset the balance for her.
It's not just me either....it can be anything: person, place or thing....or even just a person who turned in front of her driving. it doesn't take much to tip the scales.
The scary part for me and I me...it really is scary. Compared to me....when I go south and hit bottom. I just withdraw inside and go off to be alone and don't want to be around anyone.
When she hits bottom and because she sees how she feels always related to something on the outside of her. (denail...what can I say?) She goes after that thing like there's no tomorrow and is looking for revenge towards the thing that caused her reaction.
This isn't just my theory either...my T pointed these things out to me and all I had to do was watch and observe. Sure enough...it happens just like he said (along with my own research to cement that solidly in my head as to what keeps happening)
And this is what really pisses me off. I know this is it. I see it happening. And it's confirmed by my T. I also just experience this myself in a mini microcosm chain reaction so I know it's the exact same pattern.
And this is the part that I really don't understand. You'd have to say I was in denial before I was diagnosed just from not knowing any better. But I always been an optimist and a positive person for as long as I can remember. Even in the face of any abuse I experienced?
This all comes to fruition here and the reason why that was for me. My mother was a positive person despite her own challenges and was not abusive in an overt way ever. I suffered the fallout in different ways but my experiences with my mother herself were mostly positive.
But as I have now come to fully understand....I escaped the madness and negativity that I experience and sought out plenty of positive experiences including the sports I competed in. I couldn't wait to get out the door as soon as possible...and not come home until I absolutely had to in the evening. I spent very little time at home alone and was out and about and finding fun and trouble as often and as long as I could. lol
I managed to keep my ratio at 5 to 1 or better...as often as I could. So I had no problem looking at myself and finding answers willingly to the parts I couldn't explain. Voluntarily? Even with the pain that I experienced in getting past some of my past so to speak.
But here I am...right along with my T....handing this stuff to my wife on a sliver platter...and she still refuses to look at it? All she'll do is fight and argue with you and be contrary to everything you say each time I've tried? That going in opposites and being contrary and argumentative was the exact same thing her mother did. Except she did it all the time whether you mentioned anything about her or not.
Heaven forbid you get near that one!!! Sha Zamm!!! You never wanted to go there. She had everyone controlled and afraid of her from the volatile explosion and wall of voo-doo that would descend down upon you if you ever dared!!! It was bad Ju Ju all the way! lol
It was all I could do just to sit in the same room with her and not say anything. That was one time...my ADHD came in handy. I could just check out into hyperfocus land and block her right out of existence! It's kinda of like having a remote with a mute button in that respect. Click. AHHHHHHH lol
There are times when hyperfocus is a really good ability to have:) LOL
J
Along the same line of
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
Along the same line of thinking, I watched some videos of a man that has a different theory about ADHD. He believes that ADHD is a heritable condition. However, not in the conventional way that we've been told. He has ADHD and his son has ADHD. He says that when his son was born, because of his own ADHD, he physically and emotionally neglected his wife and newborn baby. As a result of the neglect from her husband, his wife developed post partum depression. As a result of the post partum depression, she was not able to emotionally connect with the newborn. As a result, neither the mother nor the father emotionally connected with the newborn, therefore his brain didn't develop properly and the child ended up with ADHD. I don't know if I really buy into it, but it is an interesting theory to ponder on.
I do think it's been proven that emotional problems get passed from one generation to another. IMHO it takes a sensitive, open minded, strong willed person to break the cycle. I think evidence shows that the children of narcissists are more likely to have Borderline Personality Disorder and Complex PTSD. I think there is even a condition known as Narcissistic Victim Syndrome.
Just more to think about.
Falls Right In Line....HH
Submitted by kellyj on
with what I've read too. This is where the Attachment Theory kicks into play. If I'm not mistaken, I remember reading that in Theory...ADHD can be hereditary and/or caused after your are born. Remembering (don't quote me) less common or rare after you are born?
Interesting mix here. My dad was the Narc and my mom if anything was surely ADHD. So was her Mom the Puritanical Dominatrix. Almost positive now.
My moms sister (ADHD or not?) was clearly a dram queen (histrionic). Two Queen Bees in the hive don't mix. My mom was the younger....triangulater/facilitator between the two. That was the role she played between my Dad and us kids too. Very unhealthy to say the least. My Mom was not highly emotional so much and not such a drama queen like her sister. She was the smartest and seemingly the most emotionally healthy of the bunch but she was anxious/preoccupied. In our case....she was preoccupied on us kids! It could be worse in comparison to the video you saw? A bit too much for my taste. But as long as she had my older sisters to focus on....I was pretty much invisible until my sisters departed for college.
Suddenly....the spot light turned on me right at age 13 and I wanted none of that!! lol That's when I really tried to make my self scarse.lol but what my T said and what I've read up on is that Narcs and Borderlines seem to pair up a lot. I think thankfully if anything...my mom had been too mind controlled up until then to even have an identity to be fragmented. Her mom made sure of that and actually....her mom was a pretty decent person. Domineering but decent and kind hearted none the less. It was her sister who went off the deep end and became a raging alcoholic and drank herself to death.
In my case....I was predisposed and definitely had some of the PTSD part but still not too severe (mild I'd say) It's only appeared in those rare moments. I've taken some online tests before for fun to see what they turned up and for Borderline....I was in a category that indicated possible ( lowest score outside of NO) but not predisposed. But the fact that my father traveled a lot and worked 6 days a week....meant that my exposure was limited and there was no alcoholism in our immediate family.
It's my middle older sister who got hit the most. If she not ADHD....she Histrionic for sure. ( I think both?) Neglect was not the problem in our family as much as too much of everything from my mom which was stifling for my middle sister especially.
Funny quick story. If I remember right ...I was just about to go into Kindergarten so I must have been 4 almost 5. I was doing the same thing with the Santa Claus story as with Church (asking a lot of questions). Things weren't adding up since...I tried to climb up our chimney and I couldn't fit. lol I was really intent on figuring out how he did that? And I also noticed 3 Santa Clauses in one afternoon and one had dark rimmed glasses I remember? This was not right at all! lol
side note: I have a freaky almost scary ability to recall things like this. Almost photographic I can picture it so well even now. In detail.
So our family was on vacation in the summer and they took me to Santa's Village in California? I don't remember where that was but it was a permanent mock up of the North Pole village except it was like 95 degrees is in the summer (I remember it was really hot! lol) So my family took me in to see Santa in the summer in California and that was really not making any sense to me. So when I walked up to Santa and I was ready and started grilling him. "How do you make the Reindeer Fly...How to you get to everyone in the world all in one night....how do you......."lol
And Santa became evasive just like at Church when I'd ask these extremely pertinent questions. Pertinent to me anyway?lol
I remember this moment well (one of those). Right then....I knew it. They've been lying to me....there IS no Santa Claus!!! (God damn it!!)
I marched right up to my family and called them out and told them exactly that. My sisters especially were extremely disappointed and tried to talk me out of it but I wasn't buying it anymore. They figured they'd have at least one or two more years of this hoax.
And the reason for that was because....my middle sister was going into 2nd grade and still believed in Santa Claus and my mom had to tell her before one of her friends did so she wouldn't be hurt. She's also the most religious of the bunch and goes straight by the book. No deviations or questioning anything she was told and was my Mom favorite for that reason. She turned out just the way my Mom wanted her to be. My oldest sister an I were referred to as "Odd" by my mother. Thinking....not so much??? lol
My middle sister ended up with some questionable eating habits if you know what I mean? And in turn.....her youngest daughter turned out to be Bulimic. Still thinking that my Mom didn't quite have that "Odd" part quite right? If anything...my Mom was Schizoid if anything but was mostly just repressed.
So for what ever reason. I was a born detective and I don't know why? But I am strong willed and stubborn and I remembered distinctly....not liking to be lied to!!!! ( god damn it!!!) My intuition was working over time...even back then and I just wasn't buying what my Mom was selling. I was the black sheep, identified patient...march to your own drummer of the family.
I also got in trouble with a couple of the neighbors mothers, who called my Mom to tell me to "knock it off"....because the first thing I did when we came home from vacation was to proceed and tell every kid in the neighborhood I could about my discovering the Santa Claus Hoax. lol There were a few tears apparently? Not my intention. I thought I was doing them a favor??? lol
The real damage to my intuition for me was....wanting to identify with my father so badly to be accepted.....that it didn't strike me "wrong" with other Narcs I've met in my life who made me vulnerable them since I trusted them despite what my intuition was tellings. Something wasn't right....but i didn't know what that was? I suffered fo that for sure.
It's also why I feared my wife was Borderline herself since I was getting that funny feeling again. As my T has explained....people do fit categories or are prone to one or the other which may seem familiar because of that. More than anything.....when you but a new car....you notice all the other ones out there just like it. My overactive intuition now....is seeing Narcs/borderlines everywhere! lol I've had to tune it down a little:)
J
This has been weighing so
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
This has been weighing so heavily on me today, this idea of emotional dysfunction repeating and growing in every generation. I sat down and drew a flow chart/family tree. I started with my and my husband's grandparents. I ended with the youngest generation of the family: my kids, my sibling's kids, and my husband's sibling's kids. I noted each disorder or emotional challenge of each person. OH MY GOODNESS!!! The results are heartbreaking!
These are the stats out of 56 people in my family:
22 Divorces
2 Suicides
2 Murders
8 Alcoholics
4 Drug Addicts
4 ADHD
1 ODD
1 Sociopath ended in suicide
1 Manic Depressant ended in suicide
4 Narcissist
1 Schizophrenic
2 Anxiety
5 Teen Pregnancies
11 Children Abandoned by at least 1 parent
2 Never Married
6 No Kids
The most disturbing aspect of all: The youngest generation includes 12 children ages 6-20. Of the 12 Children, 9 of them have been abandoned by at least one parent. Each parent abandoned his/her child either by suicide, murder, or choice. This is truly sad. My two children and one of their cousins are the only ones that haven't been abandoned by a parent.
This is what emotional dysfunction does to a family.
Now on to brighter and more positive thoughts :)
You Mean....It's Not Like Television??? Hopeful Heart?
Submitted by kellyj on
On the brighter more positive side? Sincerely in how I am saying this. This is reality. It may not be pretty....but it is what it is.
Leave it To Beaver...never really existed except in the minds of the people who wrote the script for the TV show. It was a story made up for television for entertainment purposes for the viewer. It's purpose however, was to serve the people in the Television industry: to get people to watch it and to sell advertising and gain rating approval.
Nothing in life is for Free....including TV and entertainment. Someone has to pay those salaries...or it wouldn't exist in the first place. The point is....is to give the people what they want by saying what they want to hear? This isn't being cynical.....this is just the truth and the facts of reality.
I've recognized something more recently about myself and where my own cynicism and passive aggressiveness comes from. It comes from having to pretend, or I have to fake that I believe anything other than the truth.... or live around people who believe in "Shit"... that doesn't exist. Further....having to pretend along with them just to be in the same room with them and live a lie. My life is worth more to me than that.
And worse still....having to pretend that I don't see it or let on that I do....or else pay some kind of price or consequence for believing what is real ie: retaliation or punishment...for not believing what they believe when I know it's wrong and I know it's not real or the truth. That's the definition of "Magical Thinking" right there. I don't believe in Magic period! There's always a "real" reason why thing happen. However...I do Love a good Magic show. It tweaks my brain and makes me wonder "How in the world did they do that." In this world that is.
It's why I cannot....with good conscience....go and sit in a Church and go along with everyone and say I believe that I actually believe that Jesus performed the miracles that he supposedly did. Think about it. People at the time mostly couldn't even read of write and had no access to books or literature of any kind. They were functionally....uneducated and illiterate and ignorant in those terms.
I've done plenty of research about this in terms of History. Humans back then....were not any different than they are now basically. Just less evolved as the only difference. Brain wise however....they were exactly the same as we are when we were first born. No different (fundamentally speaking). And from that research I've learned.....that even then....not everyone believed these things as "fact" and didn't questioned it.
One thing I read only recently pretty much even stated that... the Pagen Norse believers and those who followed them....didn't actually believe that there were actually "real" Gods like Thor, Odin, Freyja and Frigg... who rode around in the sky with lighting Hammers and feather cloaked winged flying horses that actually cause the weather or caused environmental conditions to occur.
What they knew for sure..is that they didn't know why these things happened or have any way to explain it and they needed some kind of way to pass knowledge on ( without books or in formal writing) within these stories to teach things like morals and science in lack of any other way.
With no other means available to them....this was what they came up with at the time. The fact is....they "didn't know." But they also didn't pretend that they did and they knew that at the time. They knew they didn't know and if they did....they would believe something different. They weren't Stupid......you know? And because they weren't Stupid....they kept searching for a better explanation and until they had one. And until that time....this one served that purpose.
And just an interesting comparison to Christianity.....they had Women Gods too and there was no discrimination between the Genders. Interesting huh?
Taking that a step further.....the Isle of Britain (England,Scottland, Welsh) was first inhabited by Vikings especially in the North (Scotland). When the Romans invaded Brittany....they got as far North up to a point and then they encountered the Piks and that's right where the road ends for the Romans who brought with them Christianity. The Piks were giants compared to the average roman foot solder who stood only 5'4" tall.
In comparison...6' + Piks with painted Blue faces were more than they had bargained for and couldn't defeat or conquer them. They left them be for the time being. Later....when the first Saxon Kings of unified England were established......you had a bunch of tribal feudal lord with little armies fighting each other for money power and territory. Once under one roof you might say. These armies were out of job.
So what to do you do when your an unemployed solder? You become a Gangster and you terrorize the peasants and rape, pillage and plunder with nothing better to do that what. You are after all....a Viking at heart anyway? From what I've read. They were pretty much Assholes.
Meanwhile...back at the Ranch....the head Asshole in charge in Rome was the Pope. In his thinking...hey...if it worked for Constantine...it will work for me. He rounded up all the Assholes together with all the Gangsters and said look " We got better fish to fry down South with these Muslims....they don't even believe in the same thing we believe anyway and their sitt'in on a bunch of cash. We're making you all Knights and giving you free rain to kill, rape, plunder and destroy...and all you have to do is swear to God, King and the Pope and your on your way. Plus...you get to keep anything you can get your hands on a take with you and when you return...you'll get some land and a title to go along with it. Whadda say boys...let go get em!." And the Gangsters all said.."sounds good to me....let's go! Fuck them degenerate scum who don't believe in Christianity....we don't give a Fuck about that them anyway....any more than the degenerate scum we're cherry picking off around here don't you know. And what are we gett'in for all our troubles? A mere "Pittance".... Arrrgggue!!" While chewing on the brains and drinking their blood from cups made from the skulls of the same degenerate scum they were referring to at the same time. Valhalla...here we come!!
These Knights as they were referred to later....wer total Asshole Gangsters and the Pope was the one who came up with this brilliant idea. He was the Godfather of all the Gangsters and the biggest Asshole of them all!
So now....back in Scotland with what was left of the Vikings who had these Pagan beliefs who had disseminated throughout the area....were hunted down, killed, raped or kidnapped as slaves or taken as wives to serve them and given the choice. Christianity...or die. To serve them? mmmmm?
And you've got to wonder you wonder where that concept came from in the first place? In my mind....I have a pretty good idea already?
I could continue with the History lesson but I think you get the idea. There's a reason for everything. But most importantly.....a reason for why we believe what we do. And since this is what I believe....and I don't see myself as the Gangsters and Assholes of the past....I don't want to be like them.
Correctly said.....they weren't Gangsters or Assholes back then. They were doing the only thing they knew how to do in the only way they knew how to do it. I believe...with what I know now.....if I followed their footsteps...and keep following that path....I will be being a Gangster, a Thug and an Asshole NOW if I do that. I believe that is what might be called being un-evolved myself. In my mind....that's primitive thinking.
Which is why I won't step inside a Church and join into Christianity as a recognized member since it represents that....in which I do not believe not for any other reason. I also believe that anyone who does....has that right to believe anything they want to as long as they don't force me to follow them and believe what they believe. To do so....would be me....just pretending to believe something that I don't believe.
This was what I did for entirety of my childhood growing up. I knew something was wrong. I knew it then...and I was right in what it was I knew. And that came from a feeling that I knew was trying to tell me something and it was there for a good reason. To tell me what to do. Back then...the only thing I didn't know was the ...."doing" part. But even then....it wouldn't have mattered anyway. I did what my feelings led me to do and for the most part. I don't regret it. My intuition was right all along.....I've just learned a few things along the way. And it all came from a feeling and nothing more. Just like with Santa Claus. I'm not Stupid after all? lol
On the positive side of things....it doesn't mean this has to be your reality? In fact. It absolutely doesn't mean this is yours or that it HAS TO BE even if it's the one you came from. The Buck Stops Here!!!
And NO.....there is NO SANTA CLAUSE GOD DAMN IT!!! Now I'm just kidding...for real..... but I'm sure you get the joke:)
To fill in like you did with my mothers oldest sister (my Aunt) for example..... to continue this extremely valuable exercise in reality. Good for you by the way. It stings a little when you really look at it but it should. That's the point....know what I mean Jelly Bean?
Aunt: Married for Money. She got it and plenty of it.
Uncle: Barely knew him. When they found my Aunt lying dead in her own excrement with booze bottles laying all around her bedroom and house...he was in Hawaii with his new girlfriend (half his age) and probably didn't care anymore.
I'm not about to say who's the worse person here since....the part I know was my Aunt. She use to call at all hours....drunk off her ass crying and sobbing. For some unknown cosmic reason..she would always call when my parents were out and I would be the one to pick up the phone usually when I was sitting watching a movie or something on television. After about 2 minutes of incoherent cater-walling a buch of jibberish more sobbing....I'd take the phone receiver and set it down next to me and keep watching what ever I was watching. I knew better than to hang up since she would just keep calling back repeatedly. Instead....when there would be pause coming from the reciever..or..."hello...hello...are you there?" I would pick it back up and go..."yeah"...and then set it down and keep watching my movie. This could go on for 1/2 to and hour until she started to fade and get tired and finally let me get off the phone.
So when my Mom tells us that my Uncle was a despicable creep. I'm not so sure about that. I don't know. I never got the chance to really know him but....the few times I did....he seemed like a pretty decent guy to me? But what do I know?
My Cousins (first daughter): Got pregnant at 16 and ran away from home to become an actress. They lived in Westwood / LA so she didn't have far to go. She became a stripper for a while. Had another kid (unbeleivable)...who she sent to be raised by my Grand parents. As I said...my Grandmother was decent person, moral responsible person...just a little controlling (understatement). And where was my Aunt in all of this? Drunk off her ass probably.
She had 4 wrecks while drunk so they took her license away from her. In one of those wrecks...there was a personal injury (but no death) in the other car. But that didn't stop her.
She started calling Taxis to deliver her booze. My Uncle put a stop to that one.
Then she hire help to come into the house to do things for her since she didn't do anything for herself. She was loaded. They live up at the top of Westwood Hills with a view. She could afford to have anything she wanted anytime she wanted and no one ever told her NO. Well actually they did....but NO was not a concept that my Aunt understood. While the workers were there...she would send them out to get her more booze.
And my Uncle again put a stop to that one.
My cousin.... finally did end up becoming an actress and she was in a couple of movies with small parts. Ironically...in one of them (The movie "FM")...in the credits it listed her part as only.. "Bimbo". If this wasn't such a tragedy....it would be hysterical from my point of view.
She ended up committing suicide by ingesting a combination of illegal pills and alcohol with a guy that might be called by another name as "Pimp". He was in the "quote unquote"....Adult film industry.
My second cousin or their 2nd daughter....became a pretty well known Artist and had some success in doing some beautiful work. Celebrities like Cher and the one of the Beach Boys were just a few of her clients. She was however....a broken lost soul who tried to marry once and ended up living with a Gay man in Hollywood. What became of her....I have no idea?
So when my Mom told us all how horrible my Uncle was and what an irresponsible immature asshole he was to have abandoned my Aunt like that. I've got to wonder....who was the Bad Guy here? Actually....I don't wonder at all. The facts speak for themselves.
And I'm still not buying what my mother was selling....even to this very day. As much as I loved my mother....I didn't trust her common sense or good judgment. The same as I do when I see my wife coming to these conclusions like that.... that make absolutely no sense what so ever...and cannot support her conclusions with anything more than....."I don't agree." About what part????
That's the most important part and the part that's missing???? Until you tell my "WHY" or give me a good reason...based on facts of evidence in the real world of reality to support why you feel the way you do.....I ain't listening and I ain't trusting you conclusions and I ain't trusting your reasoning faculties. Just say'in:)
Hopeful Heart....I know what you just did was hard. It is hard without a doubt. But it's way better than the alternative. The alternative is a nightmare. A living nightmare in the real world where we live. In my mind....that's an easy choice to make. You're a brave one and it takes some guts and heart. I commend you for it...and can see those qualities in you. Good job!!!
J
This statement and the subject matter here is Key....
Submitted by c ur self on
(The amazing thing I watched in myself over the last few days was exactly that. I went from positive to negative from the one negative experience which which started that down hill spiral. It took me a while to pull myself back out and I'm right back on track again.)
A person should track this type behavior in their life. For me there isn't many episodes, and they are hardly ever severe in nature...Unless, it is about my spousal relationship....This is absolutely the key for me to live w/ out the emotional up and downs w/ my W, regardless of the circumstances....
I came to this realization when were separated a few years ago.....It has been key in pushing myself into self-awareness of the one I can control...And its a way of measuring my successes and failures in living w/ her in an understanding manner.
It is awareness of these changes in my emotions or lack of, that allows me to track progress in my own life. It is just part of the human dilemma to be effected, but, it is something unhealthy when I can't recover, and move on w/ a healthy focus on life....
Good stuff, hang in their friend...
C
Nature? Nurture?
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Interesting thread, Hopeful and J
Hopeful the post of yours to which I'm responding particularly reminded me of the stages-of-maturation theories (grounded in direct work with clients and kids) I've read and have heard about in pedagogical and therapeutic situations.
I apologize if I bring something up that you're already familiar with (I wondered if so, based on your post), butLawrence Kohlberg's work, coupled with the work of his serious critics on stages of moral development, for example.
(Moral development not meaning measuring up to an abstract list of do/don'ts like the 10 Commandments, but instead, as the child grows into adulthood, passing through stages at which certain kinds of interpersonal issues and kinds of solutions to them are worked on).
I like Robert Kegan's work, in this vein. Both Kegan and Kohlberg, as I remember, deal with issues of getting stuck at a moral (relational) stage.
Woah! This is Really Interesting NON
Submitted by kellyj on
I'm going to have to look into this stuff in more depth? Facinating.:)
J
NON....According to This Theory
Submitted by kellyj on
I can see where the problem is with my wife and I. This is really useful stuff ! Thanks for including it here. It really helps me see where we are together. Time to absorb and conquer!!! yea!
J
PS...It did say...it's not quite that simple. It's just one Theory or model....but it's a good one none the less. Anything with diagrams and pictures is always good for me! lol
: ) There is more than one diagram for you to contemplate, J
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Moral development is a field of study within developmental psychology Kohlberg was early, and formative of a set of lines of thinking about moral development, based on clinical case study experience.
He far from exemplifies everyone's take concerning moral development (hence, there are more diagrams for you to examine). For example, Carol Gilligan challenged Kohlberg that his stage by stage description of moral development was based on inquiry into men's, not women's lives. It's true that the case studies that were considered in Kohlberg's period, were of men.
Perhaps this is an invitation to find a clincally experienced theoretician of moral development who best chimes with your life. I'd be careful placing your wife, who is a whole person and complex, on a grid, myself, though. The grid might give you insight about interacting with her, though.
One charm for me of Robert Kagan's The Evolving Self is that it manages to get away from the idea that one is "worse," or "more primitive" if one is working in let's say, stage 2 of 10. Or that, hermetically, you are "either" in Stage 4 "or" in Stage 5. Kagan allows for people doing the work of different stages, in their present life. This makes sense to me, because we've all met people who in some situations seem to have their adult kit entirely together, but in others...perhaps ones in which they have little prior experience...they seem to operate at a less "adult developed" level.
The Wikipedia article on Kohlberg, will give you some of the other practical theoreticians in the field, some of which have live links, if you want to go exploring.
CDT.... 5 Stage Developemnt
Submitted by kellyj on
Non...I just opened up one article (first one I came to )...and read over the 5 stages of development. Without looking into in more depth...I put myself between 4 and 5 like you said. The Woah came from the % of the population in those stages:)
Without going any further into depth here... my T keeps dropping the word "object" to me mixed in with his responses when my wife and I are in our counseling sessions together. It seemed pretty clear to me he's put pointing me in this kind of direction especially when I glanced at the "socialized mind" stage. Sounds like a good fit to me but I will really give it some time to look through. I love talking shop with my T anyway. As he's told me before....he can talk theory all day long and I thinks it's just facilitating anyway. I Love this kind of stuff too. There's been a few times where we've burned up an entire hour + just talking about this kind of stuff. He doesn't mind going over when he's really into it at the same time. I can't wait to lay this one on him! lol I'm sure he'll have a thing or two to say:)
J
(Kagan allows for people
Submitted by c ur self on
(Kagan allows for people doing the work of different stages, in their present life. This makes sense to me, because we've all met people who in some situations seem to have their adult kit entirely together, but in others...perhaps ones in which they have little prior experience...they seem to operate at a less "adult developed" level. Kagan allows for people doing the work of different stages, in their present life. This makes sense to me, because we've all met people who in some situations seem to have their adult kit entirely together, but in others...perhaps ones in which they have little prior experience...they seem to operate at a less "adult developed" level.)
I think this theory has been quiet evident in my own life...The more personal in nature the more I scrabble about looking for that adult kit:)...I could handle 20 head nurses, 20 direct reports, contractors, and several Bosses...NO problem!....But, this one 5'8" inch blonde has about done me in...LOL....
C
I'm on your wavelength, C.
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
I'm on your wavelength, C. I definitely have more developed social skill sets in some kinds of relations, less developed in others. I'm on the site to learn...
NowOrNever...An Iteresting Correlary w/Kagan
Submitted by kellyj on
I ran across and article about the newer diagnostic revisions made in 2012-2013 for ADHD. I've had a hard to pinning myself down as to where I fall exactly in the diagnosis...and just how severe my symptoms really are. I think this is where things really become different from one person to the next and it seems they determine severity...on impairment of each symptom. I have really hard time with this because I know that some of my symptoms were much worse when I was a kid....but even later on in my adult life....I've managed to find ways around some symptoms and not others. My personal thinking here is that some symptoms are still there....but I've just licked those and not others. This kind of goes along with what you were saying about having some strengths in skills in some relations and not in others too.
It seems with me....when I was pretty young...my symptoms were pretty severe across the board. Over time....some symptoms were easier for me to manage than others and some I manage very well and you might not even notice. The problem for me is.....I notice it, even when I manage them well. Those just seem to be a perpetual thorn in my side that I just gotten use but really don't show to anyone else? Or they only show....under more severe conditions and not others.
This kind of shifting sands effect is really hard to pin down. It's like a vertical bar graph of all my symptoms....that go up and down almost independent of each other to a certain degree? I've said this before....but it really does feel like juggling multiple balls in the air. Some days...I can just do more than others for no apparent reason? Some go up....while others go down with no rhyme or reason. I use to think this was my biorhythm's going up and down....but that was before I knew I had ADHD officially.
I wanted to include this list since it's a really good one to see all the criteria of symptoms laid out side by side.
What really stuck me most if I hadn't notice this before so clearly? I'm was predominantly Hyperactive / Impulsive when I was a child and those symptoms are the ones that people noticed in me the most. I have my share of inattentive symptoms too and now I'd say I'm combined if anything. For fun just to compare for anyone else who wants to see how I compare to someone else they know with ADHD....
I highlighted and italicized the ones that if I'm really being honest with myself....are the ones that people see in me most at this time or are most severe even now.
It they are moderate I italicized them only.
The ones that I have managed well enough at this point in time... they not a problem (or enough to be a complaint or problem for others) Get one*
Two ** means their non existent or do not show but I still might feel the pull or have managed them successfully .
I thought about this in what you introduced with Kagen Theory and that's really had me thinking about this more and more. It's the first time I've laid this out in front of me so I figured it might be useful or at least interesting for any one else as well. You said you wanted to learn something and this might not be something you'd see turn up on the internet? An actually individual profile that is? I've been saying people with ADHD come in all shapes and sizes. This might help to see why?
The 9 inattentive symptoms are:
- often fails to give close attention to details or makes careless mistakes in schoolwork, work, or during other activities (e.g. overlooks or misses details, work is inaccurate).** except reading and writing as you can easily see. At work....I'm a perfectionist.**
- often has difficulty sustaining attention in tasks or play activities (e.g., has difficulty remaining focused during lectures, conversations, or lengthy reading).**
- often does not seem to listen when spoken to directly. ( as a child but yes.. badly ) (e.g., mind seems elsewhere, even in the absence of any obvious distraction).
- often does not follow through on instructions and fails to finish school work, chores, or duties in the work place (e.g., starts tasks but quickly loses focus and is easily sidetracked .....as a kid? OMG!!). now*
- often has difficulty organizing tasks and activities (e.g., difficulty managing sequential tasks; difficulty keeping materials and belongings in order; messy, disorganized work; has poor time management; fails to meet deadlines).
side note...I've always meet deadlines even if kills me. The one exception here**
- often avoids or is reluctant to engage in tasks that require sustained mental effort (e.g. schoolwork or homework; for older adolescents and adults, preparing reports, completing forms, reviewing lengthy papers). ie: difficultly getting started but sustaining it once I do has never really been a problem?
- often loses things necessary for tasks or activities (e.g., school materials, pencils, books, tools, wallets, keys, paperwork, eyeglasses, mobile telephones).*** I almost never lose things even as a child. Very rare if I ever do/did
- is often easily distracted by extraneous stimuli (e.g., for older adolescents and adults may include unrelated thoughts).*
- is often forgetful in daily activities (e.g., doing chores, running errands; for older adolescents and adults, returning calls, paying bills, keeping appointments).
The only difference from DSM-IV is that all symptoms are followed by examples of different ways they may show up, including ways they would appear in older adolescents and adults. Thus, although the symptom list remains the same, the inclusion of developmentally appropriate examples should help guide clinicians evaluating older adolescents and adults.
The 9 hyperactive-impulsive symptoms are:
- often fidgets with or taps hands or squirms in seat.
- often leaves seat in situations when remaining seated is expected (e.g., leaves his orher place in the classroom, in the office or other workplace, or in other situations that require remaining in place).
- often runs about or climbs in situations where it is inappropriate (as a child? OMG!! lol) (e.g., in adolescents or adults, may be limited to feeling restless). With Adderall....this went away almost completely is not longer present.
- often unable to play or engage in leisure activities quietly; (as a child? OMG!!! lol)
- is often "on the go" acting as if "driven by a motor" (e.g., is unable to be or uncomfortable being still for extended time, as in restaurants, meetings; may be experienced by others as being restless or difficult to keep up with).
- often talks excessively;(as a child and before I was diagnosed? Forget about it! lol ) now *
- often blurts out answers before questions have been completed (e.g., completes people's sentences; cannot wait for turn in conversation).** gone
- often has difficulty awaiting turn (e.g., while waiting in line).** never been a problem even when little. Waiting has never bothered me. I'm pretty patient.
- often interrupts or intrudes on others (e.g. butts into conversations,games, or activities. may start using other people's things without asking or receiving permission; for adolescents and adults, may intrude into or take over what others are doing).** gone
These are only slightly modified versions of the hyperactive-impulsive symptoms from DSM-IV. As was done for the inattentive symptoms, however, the new DSM-V generally includes developmentally appropriate exemplars of these symptoms in older adolescents and adults.
Number of symptoms required and duration of symptoms
To possibly warrant a diagnosis of ADHD, individuals younger than 17 must display at least 6 of 9 inattentive and/or hyperactive impulsive symptoms. This is the same number as was required in DSM-IV.
For individuals 17 and above, however, only 5 or more symptoms are needed. This change from DSM-IV was made because of the reduction in symptoms that tends to occur with increasing age. The explanation for this change provided on the DSM-V web site is that a slightly lower symptom threshold is sufficient to make a reliable diagnosis in adults.
As in DSM-IV, the symptoms must be present for at least 6 months to a degree that is judged to be inconsistent with an individual's developmental level.
link (link removed, against posing rules)
Good morning, J
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Only a part of what you wrote:
I ran across and article about the newer diagnostic revisions made in 2012-2013 for ADHD. I've had a hard to pinning myself down as to where I fall exactly in the diagnosis...and just how severe my symptoms really are. … My personal thinking here is that some symptoms are still there....but I've just licked those and not others. This kind of goes along with what you were saying about having some strengths in skills in some relations and not in others too.
It seems with me....when I was pretty young...my symptoms were pretty severe across the board. Over time....some symptoms were easier for me to manage than others and some I manage very well and you might not even notice. The problem for me is.....I notice it, even when I manage them well. Those just seem to be a perpetual thorn in my side that I just gotten use but really don't show to anyone else? Or they only show....under more severe conditions and not others
Nature or nurture, nature and nurture, can nurture change nature?
These are just thoughts as a fellow person here, J
From over on my non-ADHD side, which is on the outside of a person who inhabits a body with ADHD, it's often hard for me to learn from observing, whether my husband is
1) in a moment in which his ADHD is directly activated (say hyperfocus, whether he deploys it or it just happens; or emotional lability),
2) or whether he's activating a compensating, coping or dysfunctional habit that came out of earlier life, due to ADHD
2a) it's a present, adult management of an ADHD symptom, that he's used as an adult by choice, has worked in the past for him, that might or might not be what a relationship needs at present, but it's a chosen, practiced, effective response to his ADHD...whether it looks "conventional" or like anything that I'd myself do to cope with my own limitations or not.
3) or he and I (or he and his work, or he and someone else) are co-doing something at the moment (which might be effective or dysfunctional)
4) I usually can tell when something that I initiate, whether well intentioned, effective, the result of an old trigger of mine, or i'm doing less than my best sets him off. I've had to live with me for quite awhile, and know what my insides and mind are doing, pretty well
J, these 5 things are not reducible to one, and at least as I'm living in relation with my partner now, I think it's important, even crucial, for me to learn, as best I can, to distinguish my husband is in 1), as different from when he's in 2) or 2a) It's one thing to accept another person as a whole person, as he is; and it's another to deal with situations on the ground. I think it's crucial for me to learn to make these distinctions correctly because how I respond to my husband when he's 1)-ing had sure better be different from when he's 2)-ing or 2a)-ing.
I think a lot is riding on my learning to make these distinctions. If he's 1)-ing...let's say is having some kind of short term amnesia about where he left a small object in his personal space (which to my eyes is quite messy), it's a call for acceptance. Things just as they are. He is is-ing. Yeah he misplaced it, and he's going to be misplacing things from here until the end of our lives. So accept, no big deal, not get my own day bent out of shape, help him look if I've got a hand free, and go on.
If it's 2), depending on its impact on his quality of life or on mine, or on ours, It may or may not be a time for me to call him to better. He's not an infant and he's not an invalid. He's learned 2). If he learned 2) as a kid, he can learn a different 2) for the situation as an adult. It depends very much on whether or not the old coping works for him right now, or works between us in a way that noticeably affects me. 2) if it's harming him now and/or harming us or me, is a matter for me speaking up and/or therapeutic help or some other coaching. People are never too old to learn and never too old to learn to stretch to help each other.
2a), if it works for him as an adult, and it doesn't harm me or set the house on fire, I need to let him alone on. His ways don't have to be my ways. The world doesn't need to be ruled by my judgements and needs. I'm all for him doing his own best thing.
1) would be, as I understand it, his biological inheritance of a particular symptom cluster. For example that emotional lability.
2) is learned, conditioned, struggled with, changed, behavior, whether the learned behavior came out of his earlier life as as a kid he dealt with when caught the fury of a parent for his impulsiveness or inattentiveness
3) is complex. I'll leave 3) aside, right now. I'll also leave 4) aside, because I'm thinking of your remarks about 1), 2) and 2a)
I can humanly see that as a kid, not knowing what you were dealing with and your parents not knowing either, that you had 1) going on and likely (you were just a kid, hadn't even had the chance to get some advice, modeling or the chance to watch other people's way o fmanaging) you had all kinds of 2) going on. Sum total: severe! You hadn't had time yet to develop your 2a)s.
My overall view of little kids who grew up in hard times has been of increasing respect. Kids are not born screw ups. Kids growing up in hard times deal with that with the knowledge and the emotional maturation they've got, in a hard situation. They're not emotionally mature, so their coping, whatever they come up with, are the coping mechanisms of an immature person (which is why they need replacing with other behavior later, often) I can believe that your experienced symptoms were worse. You hadn't had time to learn to manage them, and very likely had no models at all of how to handle ADHD. No T, back then, right?
Over time....some symptoms were easier for me to manage than others and some I manage very well and you might not even notice. The problem for me is.....I notice it, even when I manage them well. Those just seem to be a perpetual thorn in my side that I just gotten use but really don't show to anyone else? Or they only show....under more severe conditions and not others.
I've got a couple inherited, congenital problems, J. I've tackled managing them. Maybe I'm more of a biological fatalist than you are: I think the bodily and bodily/mental kit I was born with will always be with me, no matter how well I cope, and certainly no matter what I look like to other people. You have worked very vigorously to lick as many of your problems with ADHD as you possibly can. You write like you're running the race to win it all! Maybe because I haven't dealt with things like a male tackling getting to the top of Mt. Everest, I've presumed that my inherited, meaning biologically inherited package is going to be with me te whole way.
I asked a question at the beginning of the article, can nurture (meaning tending, managing and learning) change nature (meaning here, biological inheritance)? My answer to it is very, very cautious. I think yes, but probably the change is in the perceived quality of the person's life. I can never un-do my biologically inherited tendency to depression, for example. But I CAN work on depression triggers, self care when depressed, staying out of depressive situations, tat kind of thing, and so have reduced, I'd say reduced very much, the number of depressions I have. Perceptually, I'd say 95% of my depressions have gone away. But it's always THERE, J. I can even feel it, like a latency, in my body/mind. For me, the question is not to try to undo biological inheritance, but to learn to live with what I was dished, both biologically and, in fact, historically. I'll never, ever for the rest of my life, be able to undo the fact that I was abused as a child in an out of control household.
This kind of shifting sands effect is really hard to pin down. It's like a vertical bar graph of all my symptoms....that go up and down almost independent of each other to a certain degree? I've said this before....but it really does feel like juggling multiple balls in the air. Some days...I can just do more than others for no apparent reason? Some go up....while others go down with no rhyme or reason.
This is where I think you and I likely differ, and that ADHD is ther ein the difference.
As I'm guessing from what you jsut wrote, I have, oh, maybe 3 big physically originated matters that are with me, like a thorn, as you say, whether people on the outside notice them or not. Mine are biologically inherited depression, another health condition that is with me for the duration, and ta-DAH....increasing age. If you don't think that one is a thorn, just wait a decade or two.
But where I think, with great appreciation, that you may very well be different than me is that you have more "thorns" so to speak to work on and juggle, daily. Sure, like you, when I'm very tired or am sick, you bet, my three kick in, but never identically, so I can't get a total handle on what to do with the 3 when I'm sick. You put a number on it, but I'm imagining that you're dealing with what, 10? 15? That wax and wane in varying combo, some times mysteriously? If that's what you're saying, I have great respect for what you're dealing with.
: ) ...
Thinking about you.
Now
Edit to add the gist of what I was thinking about my3 factors and your let's say 12 is that in any given daymy congential combos of possibil would be 9 Nd yours would be something like 120
Back to add a plug for you
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Back to add a plug for you and for my husband: you're doing it. My husband is a gem. So are you. Mine definitely contributes. You are in your relation. I'm lucky to be with him, and no it isnt always easy, and no I'm not deluded. Detritus my eye
Back at You... NON
Submitted by kellyj on
And WTF is up with that anyway? lol
J
The Big Question....What is ADHD and What Isn't?
Submitted by kellyj on
Good morning to you NowOrNever:) This is what I've been thinking about lately. Who who can answer that question? Only the person with ADHD for all intensive purposes right? That's the real dilemma right there. Are they aware of these things about themselves? And if so....why don't they just do something about them? How can even be sure? From what it looks like....it looks like a lot of things and not many of them make any sense what so ever? The behavior....does not seem to fit the person and I have no way of reading this or in determining exactly what I am seeing? If this is all I've got to work with....I have to make some kind of choice or assumption without any more to go off of? What it looks like....is what it looks like to me?
This is the dilemma with having ADHD or for being with someone who has ADHD.
You write like you're running the race to win it all! Specifically. I think I'm racing to catch myself up with myself and figure all those parts out that I learned when I was a kid growing up that you mentioned. Without knowing I had ADHD....I figured a lot out by myself already before I walked into my T's office for the very first time. Without knowing what the problem was....and by just hitting it head on from that top down approach....I managed to figure most of what I did without any help at all. Now I'm racing to do it again from the bottom up and hitting all those things again coming from the other direction. That's a lot to do all at once.
And a huge part of that comes from my own fears which is directly related to my past. This is exacerbated by my wifes impatience and her inability to be very understanding due to her own sensitivities and weakness's that my ADHD presents to her.
I think the biggest part of what I've just come to discover since I've been directly working on my ADHD....is just how big and extensive it really is. That might not sit very well with a lot of people who have it and make them feel overwhelmed and the daunting task to do anything about. I've had my moments like this and this seems to lead right to depression, anxiety and failure. Right there...is the point of demarcation for me. That's the crux.
The less I do about it....the less control I have. And knowledge is power and control. And the converse is true. That's an opportunity right there staring you in the face. This is true 1 to 1 relationship and is not an inverse one or one that falls into the 0 sum equation like so many other things. The race...is to feel better. That's the race I'm in to win and I've found this to be true 100% of the time as you would predict from this kind of 1 to 1 relationship.
I'm going to assume my ADHD is inherited as I've said for the moment. I still could be wrong but that would just confound this more by not picking the more obvious reason I have it. I don't know for sure but my symptoms showed early and there wasn't a lot of doubt about that. Even for me. I sound pretty text book to me in that area so I'm going to discount the after I was born possibility right now but not saying it's not possible? I have my own doubts about that too but just for the sake of arguing how I got this way....lets just make that assumption and run with it?
So if that's true. That's Nature. That was easy right?
I too...have been thinking lately...that my mild depression is really Dysthymia or continual chronic low grade depression that just fluctuates up and down constantly. This is a real possibility too but I'm leaning more in the direction of Nature and not externally induced causes that I have more control of. It feels this way to me every time I address it and try and do something about it which makes me feel better again but still no real control of it. But then again....the thresh hold may be so low that the times when I feel the best which is my base line....could still be thrown off since I really can't know for sure? Part of that skewed relationship you mentioned?
But there is really nothing I can do about my base line if it's off a little compared to someone else and for that matter....it doesn't really matter anyway. lol At least that part? lol If I'm Okay with it and it's not causing any real problems...I don't really need to do anything about it as long as I keep and eye of it and deal with it when I reach that bridge each time. In my mind....this is just managing yourself and paying attention to it and nothing more? Not that complicated?
The same holds true for my ADHD symptoms but heres a really interesting thing that I've learned since I began therapy. It's one of the reason I like my T so well.
This is directly tied to the thing that I hit up against with my wife in her....not believing I can know things that I do and just simply won't accept that in some things....I actually do KNOW what I'm talking about it. That is a pretty strong idea or feeling that I'm right....enough...to say I know. This falls right into line with being a positive person or seeing the glass half full as a rule. I am mostly...an internal optimist as I see inside myself and how I see myself...not the outside world necessarily.
Taking from that...it's consistent with the way I've been most of my life all the way back to childhood. My T even had to tell me I had been abused since....I really didn't consider this ever and it really didn't even occur to me? That might tell you something right there. And I'm discounting dissociation, denial or any defense mechanisms involved. It's why I wanted to find out what I had or what was wrong with me since that didn't change anything in the way I felt about myself at all. Why wouldn't I if that's the case?
I used Forest Gump or Polyanna to describe myself at times here. Taking only the meaning from those characters to describe something I know about myself without question. I'm not either character and am not like them in any other way. I'm me in that sense...just trying to describe something I know for sure. If that makes sense? it doesn't mean I act like that or show it on the outside. I'm pretty far from being either one of those characters in real life and that probably shows in all the writing I've done. I'm me....with these qualities that I know for sure is all that is saying. These are qualities that have always been there no matter what and they are obvious to me. This has more to do with my potential or what I am most apt to do given any circumstance that confronts me if I use those qualities to guide me....it doesn't guarantee that I will in a push comes shove but...it is the most likely thing you could expect...given the circumstances.
Going back to my T. He was clever in how he approached me. He stayed (and by default) stays away from diagnosis and resists them like the plague. Same as he did with me. It took 5 years of me....doing my own research and searching myself to come to that conclusion before we even talked about ADHD. When I confronted him with it....he said he mentioned it ONCE. Literally...mentioned the possibility. I didn't even remember that he did but as I agreed with him....I had other things on my mind at the time...namely...not getting divorced to my ex wife and trying to salvage our marriage.
And as I was coming to realize more and more....that he was taking the Top Down approach with me....I was taking the opposite approach and working from the other direction with him. He's a crafty one I'm telling you! lol He played me in respect to working with my oppositional attitude that I walked in the door with and used that to his advantage even though he would call me out at times and call me stubborn. He was not wrong! lol
But as I have now come to understand about this. I was not wrong either and he wasn't completely right in everything he was doing with me either. We had a couple of show downs in his office where I dug my heals in and told him why ..or what I know to make sure he knew that I did. There was a time that I was really getting frustrated with him since he kept going down that same rode which sometimes....it felt like he was beating a dead horse to death. Those were the times I had to go "you know....I don't think your right here with me. I think I'm right...and this is why." And he changed tack. And he went a different direction. In fact....there was several times that I got so frustrated over this...that I considered not going any more only...in that I could see he was limiting me by his comments or things he would say that I could clearly see where he was going and with me....it was going no where. It wasn't exactly....what he thought but something else that I knew.
What I knew....still remained a mystery? And to a certain degree....some of those things still are? That's not to say that I am not aware of them ...clearly.....or I do know those things about myself. It's just I don't know WHAT they are all exactly. Most of them now yes. Back then...I don't know anything more than that.
And the reason for this comes from having that Forest Gump...Polyanna quality. I didn't create this quality. It didn't come from my past or my learning. It's just there and always has been. You might include being open minded, staying positive, not making assumptions, and simply admitting easily that I don't know things as being part of it. I've never felt like there are stupid questions ever. Gong all the way back to getting kicked out of Sunday school or making myself vulnerable to exposing that I don't know things. This kind of nativity goes along with it. There are times...when this has bitten me on the ass...hard! lol And that goes right into others who are not like this and use these kinds of things against you to their advantage. From that Forest Gump perspective....this never would have crossed my mind to do such a thing in the first place? I have suffered from that greatly in that....people who use others....use that to their advantage. I needed to adopt a different strategy and persona to go along with the quality that I have so as not to lose it. If that makes sense? In the world of Men/boys and competition....showing your weakness's will kill you if you can't learn to navigate this. In which.....I did. Successfully.
So in essence....I retained the good quality I have...and adopted a different strategy in order to maintain it and protect it. If someone is using my personas' to access me or to make a determination to how I will perform or predict what I am capable of....their going to fall short and underestimate that I know a lot more than they think I do. Saying....if you are aware of this yourself...and can see what you are doing....you aren't doing it from some psychological dysfunction...and more as a skill you develop and can use or wield as needed.
And in my case....I needed to do this to survive. It was a skill....rather than some internal malfunction or personality defect or aberration in my personality.
As Shakespeare said.."To thine own self be true." And for the most part....give or take.....I did this pretty well all things considered but the way I got there was from trial and error. Meaning....I tried some things that went against myself at certain time....which came back to haunt me and it didn't work. Okay. Se la vie. Try ...try ...again?
But this goes all the way back to the beginning with me. That....march to your own drummer....always comes at a price. I succumbed at times....but not for too long before I'd say..."FUCK IT!!" I don't care anymore...if you like it or not!! And proceeded with what I knew instead of what anyone else wanted me to be....for their sake...not mine.
I'd say this is where that strong will comes into play....along with head strong and stubborn. This has nothing to do with impulsiveness in the moment or momentary decisions. It also has nothing to do with needing to be right...or proving anything (afraid of being wrong). And at this point with what I've learned even more recently. It has nothing to do with cognitive distortions either.
This is the fire that burns inside me that has never gone out. It's the life force energy that has never left my body or my unconscious mind since day one. I also think it's directly tied to that "sixth sense" I was talking about.
And this is the thing that I got frustrated about with my T he kept going down a road that I knew was not going anywhere. This is not about cognitive distortions, aberrations in thinking patterns, defense mechanisms or fear driven emotions or even emotions at all. It's completely and distinctly separate...and I know that for sure. This is a quality that I have...that I can feel it and I know it...without reservation.
And before I knew I had ADHD....I used this to figure out or tell me what to do without knowing anything about it....and yet....I found lots of ways around these challenges anyway...despite what I didn't know.
So now if you look at a top down approach to everything and use only rules or a written guide to work from....this bottom up quality that I know is there is not going to always agree.
In fact....it doesn't agree with anyone. It is of a singular mind in that respect. Which is why all the trial and error to find out all the ways it doesn't work first...to then find out all the ways it does once you made those mistakes. it just a process you have to go through if you going to use this quality and take advantage of it. There really is not other way I can see around just learning how by hands on trial and error? One might argue...that there are lots of ways to learn things and one of them is to use what people before you have learned....and just follow the instructions by the book. As long as that works....what other need would you have to do this any other way? No need I can think of....until it doesn't work?
Then what?
I think ADHD presents a person with a "then what" scenario that is difficult for those who haven't experienced to understand, which leaves them with all those questions I stated at the beginning of this thread.
And my "FUCK IT" attitude I adopted in the past....was there for a good reason. The "Fuck IT" knew something...that others didn't but I couldn't explain it and at that point....was not about to.
If you take the naivety of Forest Gump....the good kind heart of Pollyanna...and the stubbornness or strong will ( or the fire that burns)..and put them all together. This forms a quality of personality that you know or either don't know? In my case....I know it...and have always know it...and am not afraid to use it or afraid of what it looks like to others whether they like it or not. It's the basis of who I am.
So if I go back in my past and look it over in time. One thing that is clear to me...that I never cared about looking stupid or acting a fool. I didn't care if I asked questions that made me appear unknowledgeable...and didn't really care if someone thought that about me or gave a shit one way or the other in that way. Not that I didn't care about other people. I just didn't care what they thought of me in respect to seeing me as smart...or needing to feel like I needed they're approval of me in that way. But this is one sided thinking on my part in my past and it comes directly from learning the lessons I did from being this way. That "Fuck It" attitude...needed to be re-evaluated and modified....not completely eliminated or changed to some thing else entirely. To do so .....I would lose the other valuable traits within that quality..and that would be like trying to change who I am as a person. This is part of that pretending thing I was saying.
And this comes full circle to even now. As far as I'm concerned....the mistakes I've made in the past....were just that. It's part of learning and then applying it. You can't bake that cake unless you break a few eggs in the process.
And someone who is too afraid to break those eggs....is never going to bake a cake and do it successfully. The fear in all of this..is what prevents you from moving forward and learning anything new.
I strongly believe at this point in time.....that for what ever reason a person has who has ADHD and then finally got to a point one day in growing up and looking around them...they went...uh oh. And then they stopped right there. Out of this kind of fear. What will people think of me? What will I look like to them. Oh no! Better fake it and pretend and just go along with what ever everyone else is doing so no one will notice?
To a certain degree. I did this too. Until I hit that "Fuck It" point and didn't care anymore. When ever I did that. I learned something new. When ever I didn't do that....and I stay afraid of what other people thought of me and tried to hide it instead. I learned nothing....and stayed the same.
My fire and life force energy is positivity I may come across as negative sometimes, cynical or passive aggressive...but in terms of what I've had to face in direct conflict from others....adopting those strategies not so much in defense but in direct opposition to them....was all I could do in the face of someone attempting to hurt me...or put my fire out. This was where the strong will and stubbornness equate to self preservation and the Love I feel inside for myself at the cost of alienating others or just letting them think what ever they want to...and just not giving a shit.
In those terms..."Fuck It"....was a win/lose situation. It did serve a purpose at one time...but it's still a lose/win win/lose scenario and why I had to change that to something else later on.
For me mostly now....is just practicing and using what I learned....to do things better than before. I know what I need to do.....I'm just not very good at some of those things since I'm doing them differently now that;s all. This takes time. And time is the thing that my wife has a hard time giving me from her own impatience and all that goes along with it.
Before I even met her....I had already come to terms with this. No one is required to do this even if they said they would up front. I told my wife everything I knew and then some and she agreed to be with me. Once she got there....she found that she got more than she understood or what she thought it was I was saying. Within her legitimate inability to know what she was signing up for even when I told her in as many ways as possible....once she got there...she was in over her head. That's enough right there....to leave the door wide open for her any time she chooses and for me to understand up front,....that this is a real possibility on any given day. I never forget that...and I made that agreement with myself...not matter what my wife agreed to. It's her right to do so....and I think its a reasonable thing for me to give her all thing considered.
Marriage is not a guarantee of anything...it is a promise....until the day you break it. I feel strongly....I have to give up something here in having ADHD. And that is never knowing when that promise will be broken or if it will. But I never in a second...believe it won't on any given day. Day by day...that's all I have in my marriage to my wife and that is not something that will change. I don't expect her to keep her promise and I'm Okay with that. I have to live with not knowing and live with that feeling...and still be Okay with it and proceed like it will be forever. My behavior is based on fore ever.
My mind knows there is no such thing and promises are broken on a daily basis and are not the end of the world. She is a free person...with her own thoughts....wishes.. desires and needs and I for one...will never stand in the way of that for her sake. That's the promise I've made to myself that intend to keep no matter what. I will never fault her if she decides to go against what she promised with me because I have ADHD and I know what that means.
And that goes right back to what I said here....The less I do about it....the less control I have. And knowledge is power and control. And the converse is true. That's an opportunity right there starring you in the face. This is true 1 to 1 relationship and is not an inverse one or one that falls into the 0 sum equation like so many other things. The race...is to feel better. That's the race I'm in to win and I've found this to be true 100% of the time as you would predict from this kind of 1 to 1 relationship.
That's all I need to know.
J
Sixth Sense Pisses Poeple Off
Submitted by kellyj on
NON. I recently told my wife of the story of the first time that something happened..that I could not explain. It probably wasn't the first time...in fact..I know it wasn't. This time was no undeniable...that you couldn't explain it away.
I was about 9 or 10...and my mom gets a phone call from the neighbor across the street. Apparnetly...a couple of teen age boys went in to our open garage and stole a case of beer my father had sitting along the wall in plain site. The neighbor thought it looked suspicious so she called my mother to tell her what she say and to make sure it wasn't something we were aware of or that these boys were doing it with my moms approval. My mom got off the phone and called me into the kitchen where she was and asked if I knew anything about this or who that might be? I said no and immediately went out into the street and looked down in the direction our neighbor had said these boys went off with the case of beer. I didn't see anyone and since it had been probably 10 minutes later since the boys stole the beer....they had plenty of time to get away and out of sight by then.
I started walking pretty fast to see if they might still be in sight and just far enough that I couldn't see them and kept moving in that direction. I got about 100 yards away from our house and stopped. Something....made me stop and look to my left into an empty lot. I walked straight ahead into the lot right up to a clump of grass and there was the case of beer. I was not searching or meandering around looking. I walked right up to it and there it was in a straight line. In fact....from the time I had left our driveway and found the beer. It was the straightest most direct path from point A to point B you could make and only made one 90 degree turn when I reached the vacant lot.
How did I do that? I have no idea. I didn't know where the beer was in fact....I wasn't looking for the beer...I was looking to see if I could see the two boys up ahead of me and that's it.
This kind of things happens to me all the time. In fact....I got so good with this...that I used it everyday in the work I do. I can look at something at a glance...and know exactly what to do without ever having done it before. In less than 5 seconds of thinking about it. And I can do that all day long...365 days a year.
You'd think this sounds like a great thing to be able to do but not so fast. For some....this makes them mad and they will go out of their way to Fuck with you and make you pay. For what? Thinking....their own inability to do this. I know this part better than anyone...since I've had that happen to me my whole life.
My father would get pissed when I would do it with him. Furious in fact. So I learned not to do it around him or not to say anything even when I knew he was doing something wrong. I kept it a secret....but I paid attention to see if I was right. Sure enough...I was right or almost right (in the ball park at least) every time. I knew this....but never let him know it. The reason for that was easy. Every time I'd do it....I'd get hit by my father and called "Mr Know it All" Nice.
At work....this guy was hired who came in thinking he would out do me and take my job. It was so clearly obvious to me what he was up to but still....I gave him the benefit of the doubt anyway since I was his supervisor. Not only did he try and sabotage me later...he did it in the most underhanded way you could do this by making false accusations against me which nearly cost me my position. He tried for 8 years to out do me anyway he could...but every time he tried to match me and do the same thing I would do...he failed and screwed things up. This went directly against what I told him not to do. His screw ups....he blamed on me which was what nearly cost me my job. When that didn't work....is when he went directly behind my back...and started to make things up to the point....he tried to plant some false evidence to make it seem like it was me...which eventually came out anyway as him....which was when he was fired.
I was helping some friends work on a car...and there was this guy who was a really experienced mechanic there and we were all standing around trying to trouble shoot the problem. I was the least experienced person there and new very little about cars at the time. After about and hour of everyone standing around trying to figure this out.....I finally spoke up and said..."why don't you do this." Sure enough...that was the problem. My close friend who was there looked at me and said..."You know....I don't know how you keep doing that because no one would ever believe you could. And yet, you keep doing it???" The older more experienced guy when I was walking into the house...tripped me and made me fall on the ground as his Thank you for that one.
At a job in college working at a gas station....the bosses son was the head mechanic. I was the night time guy who was only there to pump gas. One night....a customer came in all in a panic...and said they had fixed his car earlier that afternoon and but it wasn't working and he was leaving for out of town. I had never seen his car or knew what the owners son had done so I just told him to start it and I looked under neath the hood. I was not a mechanic of much experience and didn't really know what I was doing. But I saw the problem and fixed it and the man was on his way. He later called to tell my boss what a life saver I was for doing that and how happy he was for our service to him. The next day when the boss had left...in front of my other co-workers...he took me by the neck and forced me to the ground and shoved his boot in my face and told me to lick the bottom of it as my reward for doing that. I refused of course...but it didn't take away from the humiliation.
Another time at work...a diamond had been lost on the ground and no one could find it. They tore the place apart looking for it...but something told me where to look. At first my boss wasn't going to let me look there since it involved unscrewing a shelf unit bolted to the floor and there was no way the diamond could have been underneath it. I agreed. There was no way for the diamond to get underneath since there was no space big enough. He was so frustrated and the value of the diamond was so high....that he didn't care anymore and just walked out of the room and was going to take the loss. I quickly unbolted the shelf unit and there was the diamond. There was no way for it to get there....but it was there none the less and I picked just the one shelf unit to look under out of 6 or 7 identical ones it could have been under. Even if that were possible? My boss was happy about that...but made sure to tell me how lucky I was that I was right since if I hadn't been right and removed the shelf...he would have furious for disobeying his wishes and looking there anyway. Thanks....I really appreciate.... that you didn't say any more disparaging things to me..or how happy he was for doing him any favors. lol
If my father had been home when the beer was stolen....I never would have told him how I found it but in this case...my mom told him and since it was his beer....he didn't care as long as he got his beer back and that was the end of it. My mom however asked me how I found it and I told her....I don't know. I just knew where it was?
It's also in part....why I never lost anything even with my ADHD. I misplace things all the time and go looking for them...but I always find them.
It's also why I don't tell people about this because it seems to only piss them off. And I can't prove this or explain it....yet...when you're standing there with a case of beer in your hands....it's pretty hard to argue against. In that case....throwing you on the ground and making you lick their boots comes close...but that added bit of appreciation on top of it. Or trying to get you fired. Or just out and out hitting you and telling you that you think you know everything for using this ability.
Mostly.....I don't say anything any more and just do it anyway. At least you don't get hit in the face that way:)
J
The Power of "Not Knowing Anything" and The Cult of Persoanlity
Submitted by kellyj on
Something was revealed to me in my own words here in this thread. As I went back over my last post on "Sixth Sense"....I realized something that struck me very clearly from my own perspective and that comes from the power of not knowing or "I don't know." If I am gong to stay true to myself, and not follow what others have said before me or have the need to explain the unexplainable....I cannot in good conscience say that I have a "Sixth Sense" of any kind.
From my own Narcissistic view of myself that must explain "who I am" and in need of a label to define my self as anything other than just a person who recognizes or is aware of themselves as an individual ie: neither a leader, nor a follower. I must concede that any "sense" I have is merely my own sense of mind....or sense of myself and my own sensations.
Okay great, I am aware of myself and my own sensations. Now what?
The point I'm trying to make is.....there is no "now what". This is it. And I have to live with the fact that "I don't know" anything more than that for sure? I think living with "not knowing" is difficult for many people.
The "need" in relation to the "need not to know"...I think might be directly related to a persons denial and the problems that come from not being able to live with "not knowing"....which as I'm saying this....is the source of our problems in relationships of any kind.
What just occurred to me as I re-read my last post are three things that came to mind.
1) I wasn't even sure what a sixth sense is in relationship to ADHD until just recently when I researched "Sixth Senses" and what that really means. As defined: "a special ability to know something that cannot be learned by using the five senses (such as sight or hearing)"
2) I didn't know I had a sixth sense since I didn't know anything about that.
3) These events happened and happen without me knowing anything about them or the reasons why they happen. Fundamentally speaking....I didn't know anything?
All this says by definition....is you can't use your 5 senses to have this special ability.
In absences of your senses, you therefore are senseless and without the ability to learn. Going a step further...a senseless person without the ability to learn might be considered as having a learning disability in those terms. And without the ability to learn, you would not know anything?
From there.....I have an easier time explaining what happened to me in everyone one of those examples I gave or people who get pissed at you when you apparently know something they don't know. This says more about those people....than it does my ability to have any special powers.
All I said repeatedly was.....something happened that I could not explain...and somehow knew something....without knowing anything? That's all I've said and keep saying repeatedly. The problem comes, when you need to explain it to someone who needs explanations for things since they cannot live with "not knowing" and are in dire straights when things cannot be explained in ways that they can understand. This feeling of living with the uncertainty and fear that arises from being ignorant or without the ability to explain themselves.....to themselves. Would lead one to need an answer....right now, to explain what they cannot explain.
A person like this might need a label for everything in order to understand their place in the world with a growing impatience with not getting an answer to quell this feeling that they can't tolerate. This intolerance to not knowing would also lead a person to need to believe in something....since something at least is better than nothing? Right?
Believing then becomes a "need" and is not optional for a person like this. This need to believe would then become a priority in order to define that person environment and put themselves in it. To do this.....you need to create a story and with yourself in it as the central character But this story that a person like this creates in their head....is NOT from a need to know.things that are fact based or from logic...as much as a need to "believe" in something....rather than not believing in anything? Not believing in anything....would be the same as not knowing something which is intolerable to a person like this. Right?
So....a person of this "nature"....would need to build a story in their heads to explain things and define themselves as the central character in their story. The need to label, compartmentalize and put other people in their proper place would create a dichotomy in their thinking or simply put....black and white, either / or type thinking. I am this...you are that. I am good...you are bad.
From this place....all Hell breaks loose! lol And of course....Hell is where you go when you are bad since there has to be a place to put bad people in your story along with all the good people which is you of course. This kind of intolerance to not knowing would then lead a person to believe just about anything and never question if it's correct or based on "facts of evidence", and replace this with what ever they come up with in their heads in order to do this.
Either that....or they just follow what they are told to believe from someone else who told them to believe what ever they believe. This would tend to put people in to two distinct categories for all those who have this intolerance to not knowing anything: leaders, and followers....or.....believers and non-believers.
I want to come back here and finish this because I really think this is an important topic to address. As came to mind when NowOrNever mentioned "Totalitarian" in one in her recent posts on Gaslighting assaults we were discussing....my favorite Totalitarian of all and the one who came to mind was Hitler.
The phenomenon of Hitler himself and how he came to be in power has everything to do with his Charismatic appeal and his ability to persuade others to believe him and he did this on a global scale and people went along with him and believed him yet he was without question....the personification of evil and quite remarkably.....one might consider to be the greatest Narcissists who ever lived. He had quite a story in his head as we all have come to the full realization that he was quite possibly also insane...by any definition you could label him as.
And yet....the "need to believe something" and the peoples intolerance to "not knowing anything about their future" for those who followed him.....was the only thing that allowed that to happen since without that one critical piece to the puzzle.....it wouldn't have been possible in the first place.
The same as with organized religion. The same with the idea or concepts of labels and the same with the idea or concept of "what a marriage is."
I don't know how many times I've heard this said here on this forum. "This is not a marriage. This is not what this is suppose to be like?"
And know I'm wondering myself ( since I don't really know anything about anyone else? ) If this is not where this all comes from? That is...the intolerance of not knowing anything and needing to know something that there is no answer for which leads us with the inability to live that feeling....which leads us to have to replace that feeling with something....by creating something to believe in..... in IT'S place?
The I / IT....dilemma or conundrum....of the primitive Narcissist mind of a child or first two stages of development. Thinking in those terms.....would lead you to become this way and never be able to advance beyond this trap in our thinking.
Lead...and.....follow. All happening in the mind of course.....which leads you to the same action of behavior since.....where else CAN this come from if each of us is born....independent of one another and has their own individual mind that is separate from everyone else.
And unless I'm missing something here? Mind reading has yet to be proven as a link between two minds?
Which brings me right back to what I keep repeating in my post about this supposedly named....."Sixth Sense" which is actually referring to an absence of a sense.....which come directly from simply not knowing anything and being Okay with it.
One, who has a strong need to label such things...might call that being oblivious, Forest Gump or kind of "absent" minded. Which could be appropriate descriptions of what that "subject" looks like from an "object" perspective.
Another one might be as I see it and see myself and how I remember that expereince first hand myself....was being open minded....and not thinking anything and just letting things happen. And when they did.....not having a burning need to explain it and just live with the fact that it happened and went....."that was cool."
And then move on from their and not have a need to think about it again until someone else mentioned something about some kind of "Sixth Sense" or ability that some with ADHD have? If I lavel myself with that and explain it to myself a different way.....doesn't change the fact that I knew literally "shit about noth'in".....and these things still happened anyway?
And I still can't explain it because I don't know anything as far as how that happens and why. I think in light of what I just said....I'm going to keep it that way and not think that not knowing anything is some kind of special gift or talent.
For me to think anything differently about myself just because someone comes up with a name for not having any sense....would be stupid on my part as I see this from my perspective. On top of that....you can't prove a negative anyway except on paper. And why? I really don't have the need to do that at this point in time. The past is gone and the future doesn't exist?
That's all I need to know;)
J
Good Article About Object Relations and "Nuture"
Submitted by kellyj on
I just read this article about primitive Narcisisism and stages of human development. In it....it describes very simply....exact same abuse that happened in my own childhood and the resulting PTSD from this kind of trauma. It explained this so well....I thought I would include here for anyone who is interested. I thought it was easy to understand and made some good connections to the very things I've been mentioning here in this thread.
link: http://energeticsinstitute.com.au/early-childhood-oedipal-narcissistic-a...
J
Intu
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Say, J, interesting post.
I think everyone has intuition. A lot of people dont listen to it. You've given reasons for that.
Here's Gavin de Beker talking about intuition, about halfway down his interview, on this Amazon page https://www.amazon.com/Gift-Fear-Gavin-Becker/dp/0440226198
As for people who must have things explained, or must have their questions answered, it's just my take, not one I apply to thinking about all people, I start out answering the questions I'm asked but if I notice that they dont remember or believe my answers, or if they're firing off questions like a machine gun, too fast to make sense of answers coming back, I figure nowadays that they're doing something that has to do with their own anxiety or as you say, wanting to pin down things so that they know where they are, stabilize things.
Making intuitive guesses or predictions, to me, is not a supernatural gift, its just running very fast sequences of logical or physical inferences. Intuition to me is different from other perceptions that have slim to no connection with our ordinary senses. I think that there is more than intuition possible.
At any rate, it's hard to spell out the logical or visual or otherwise physical sequence of inferences in an intuition to someone else, if you've had an intuition, so that an anxious questioner might well go into overload if you literally tried to describe the sequence.
It took me a lot of years to get to this point, but regardless of what the questions are about, if the questioner shows that he or she doesnt value the answer enough to give credence or attention to what I say,. Or wants something else, say a release from anxiety, sometimes I dont answer the question, I instead address their need. Or I decline to go down the path of repeated but why, but why... I dont leave them blanked, no response from me, I do respond, but I dont need to make sense to people, all the time. I do need often to offer some care.
: )
anyway, long live intuition. Just so long as we dont worship it or self induce, insinuating our own delusions into our minds, saying that half baked wishes and fears are intuitions. Speaking of myself, here.
Its quite a world. i also think our bodies are talking to us nonstop, and I at least, took a long, long time before I listened to it, with respect, and allowed myself to be guided by what my body was saying.
I think its great that you've found your intuition.
Thanks NON.....I'm Sitting Here
Submitted by kellyj on
reflecting on the article I just included on primitive narcissism and child development. Wow!! It's pretty much all covered in there including attachment styles, attentional disorders and repressed emotions. I think it did a great job of covering lots of different scenarios with several possible outcomes to each. It was really easy to spot which one I was in there and how that all came about right down to the letter.
This really filled in a lot of what I didn't learn in therapy or at least....not in this great of detail by showing side by side...the other possibilities within the same family (siblings) and how each can be different. What I said about my middle sister...the favorite? She was the hardest hit and it plays out exactly as it said. My oldest sister? She got it too being the first and the same gender as my mother....but favored by my (Narc) father....as it predicts....exactly as it says.
And then theres me....the scapegoat for everyone and neither parents favorite. That might sound worse....but for me...it was a blessing in disguise in many ways. While my sisters didn't get what I got.......I didn't get what they got either. As it says...."The rest of the children watch silently and like lonely sentinels from the sidelines in either case, wondering all the time what is wrong with them that they are invisible and unwanted. Some will develop strategies like becoming sickly to get negative attention(which is at least attention), while others fade into the background and learn to be needless, wantless, and unsure of feelings and who they are."
Having to choose between the lessor of two evils.....fading into the background did those things to me as it said. But unsure or anxious about feelings and needing to define who your are a bit.....is better than having who you are taken over by your parents and having to develop a false self instead.
I had a self albeit....lonely and sad much of the time along with the challenges I faced from this. But along with that, my intuition and all my emotions and feelings (my kit as you say) still remained intact....as it was. It just needed some work and a little help from my T to get me there. Part of that....was just re-calibrating my intuition and putting a few new names (or labels ) on those places where the needle show something different. Once I did that.....it began to make a lot more sense compared to what it was saying before.
On the bright side of things. At least it was there....and it was working. I'm Thankful for that:)
And I'm also Thankful to you for being supportive of my little adventure here. I very much appreciate your input and all the supportive nice things you've had to say:)
J
Intuition...and Co-Narcissism
Submitted by kellyj on
I forgot to say something here NON. In the article....it mentions co-narcissism instead of co-dependent. I had never heard that term before but it hit right on the bulls-eye.
For the first year in my sessions with my therapist....I was afraid I had become a Narcissist from my exposure and some of my own behaviors. But these behaviors only showed up when I was in a relationship with one. My T spent many hours trying to convince me otherwise! lol I was so afraid of ever becoming one....I was a little obsessed at first. The lonely sentinel still on the job ! lol In that he wouldn't diagnose or say what it was he was doing with me....he finally said "Let me assure you....what I'm treating you for is not Narcissism." whew!! What a load off.
But he did continue to say...."it has a the flavor of it sometimes."
When I read co-narcissist.....everything fell neatly into place:)
And why my intuition was right....almost. So when I say I'll die trying before I'll get that way ever again. I mean it!! And how. The door will always be open....any time my wife wants to fight me on that one. I'll let my intuition do the talk'in since it hasn't failed me yet. Especially....now I know what it's say'in. Just say'in:) lol
J
Chameleon vs False Self
Submitted by kellyj on
After having a chance to think about this after reading this article on primitive narcissism and the different directions this can go, I also had a chance to watch a number of the videos of Dr Russel Barley that I had not seen before. I have to say, I am impressed with his information. It's been so difficult to place myself in all of this, to try and narrow myself down. In one of the the videos, he talked about oppositional defiant disorder and conduct disorder which he made some pretty clear distinctions.
I had ODD as a child along with ADHD. And as he said....this disappears by the time you're a teenager. Also true. And in the distinction he made as he said it....this is of very little consequence by itself as it seems to take care of itself on it's own. Also true.
But with conduct disorders....you have the seeds of antisocial behavior involved. This gets into the realm of no empathy and remorse and as he put it....a child who is a predator.
For a child with ADHD who is a predator....acting out or behaviors that specifically exploit or damage others for personal gain is not just being oppositional. This is a child who is looking for trouble with some kind of agenda in mind. A per who splits off early in life and develops a false self to compensate and who has conduct disorder behavior is basically turning into a pathological Narcissist and is not just sharing some features or symptoms at different stages. If this becomes a chronic way of being in the world....that's a category for concern in my mind. Knowing the difference might not be all that easy to determine.
From my perspective...I can give you some idea based on some the friends I use to hang out with growing up. In the neighborhood where we lived...there were lots of kids everywhere and most of us....knew each other and had times we found ourselves together for one reason or another. In that respect....we knew who the trouble makers were since when with them....you were putting yourself at risk of getting in trouble along with them as well. It happened more than once for sure....and after a couple of times...you knew when to high tail it out of there as well.
The early behaviors of these kids was pretty easy to see. Public destruction and vandalism. Starting fires or arson...not just blowing things up or burning things to see what would happen like most boys I knew at a certain age including me. Anything that blows up like firecrackers or M-80's is just a rite of passage for most boys I knew. Starting fires for destruction of property is a whole different thing.
Torturing or tormenting animals for pleasure is another red flag that I saw. This is something that troubled me tremendously and I wanted no part in that. I love animals what can I say?
And stealing in general. I had my moments as a kid with candy or petty theft like this...but there was no pattern and I mostly did it if someone else was doing it too. That went away as well once I got to a certain age. The temptation is there when you first are let out alone without your parents around...but basically after even a few times....the guilt starts to kick in and you feel bad about it later. As it should. For the guys I knew who fit this profile....they stole things continually well into and beyond their teenage years with little change in behavior.
As we as a group of friends from our neighborhood found....that despite our petty crimes or misconduct in isolated instances....the guys who did this not stop wer always getting into trouble for it. Eventually....you stayed clear of them or at least....left at the first signs of deviant behavior since no one wanted to be associated with them when they got caught which you knew was coming at any time when they were around. That was easy to see....from the inside of this growing up. ADHD or not....these guys were in predator training camp with a track record to go along with it. Mostly later as a teenager....the worst thing we did as a whole together or in a group...was drink beer and smoke pot illegally and that was about it.
So in terms of pretending as I've mentioned already....to stay clear of trouble and to survive in a volatile environment with a Narcissist yourself....you learn to camouflage or act in overt ways to disguise yourself so you will not be detected or picked up on their radar. In those terms...you become a Chameleon and you adapt to them in order to stay out of harms way. These personas you play are with intention and awareness that you are doing it in fact....so aware of it, that it feels really uncomfortable to put on a false front or facade. For your sake...and for the sake of what a Narc wants you to be....you play the part they want...or pay the price for not being that for them.
Being a Chameleon then becomes a skill you must adopt for that reason only. Once out of harms way (when they're not there anymore) you go back to being yourself again once you can relax and feel safe.
I wanted to make that distinction clear as being different than a false self in psychological terms. A person who has developed into being a pathological Narcissist has split off from themselves...and created a new "good person" to show on the outside...in order to take all the bad parts and push them into their alter ego subconsciously which is in total denial of that part of their person and kept under tight wraps so no one will ever see it. The worst thing you can do to a person like this....is expose the part they want no one to ever see. That person...is only aware of one person or self....and it's the false self that they show on the outside that everyone can see.
It was really interesting to finally hear the term co-narcissist since those coping strategies of being with one...will show up in things like being a Chameleon in response to them. Pretending with awareness and with intention...but not showing your self and who you really are is exactly what happens as the result of being a co-narcissist along with them. You do this out of fear or retaliation and not out of arrogance. Yet...you pick up the mannerisms and behaviors so as to seem acceptable to them so they won't attack you at your weaknesses. In essence....the more you mimic them in their own behavior...the more they will like you. Copying them or emulating them is what a Narc likes to see in the mirror. It is the sincerest form of flattery to them...to be like them when you are around them. Like what they like, do what they do etc.... When you fail to mirror them the way they want to be mirrored, it will cause them to turn on you and hit you at your most vulnerable spot.
In order to avoid conflict (which is always the goal with a Narc) becoming a Chameleon and playing what ever part they want you to play...is the safest bet all things considered as a child growing up around a parent like this. The problem comes when you need to be yourself...and your self has been repressed to the point....that you're social skills have been under used and instead...you learn not to show who you really are better than you do at showing who you really are with those social skills instead.
The most poignant thing for me in all of this....is that I was aware of and knew it at the time. In respect to this....I knew I was in a role when they were present....and I knew when I was being me myself when they were not. This felt wrong and I knew it at the time. If it feels like you are losing yourself or who you really are and just playing a part or role for another person instead....this is what I would see as a big red flag and something to take a close look at and why I think this article explains all of this so well.
Repression of self and putting on pretense is the end result of being a co-narcisist in relation with a Narc. You end up behaving like they are for them because they like it that way....and betraying yourself in the process. That's different than a false self as it appears in a Narc since who they really are inside....is hidden even to them.
J
Chameleons, later in life
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Good post, J. I agree with your concluding paragraph.
Since the Narcissist adult once as a kid also had a number done on his/her identity in earlier life, the question becomes, who is going to stop this passing this emotional power sh** down in the family, or pouring it out of the house into things like dysfunctional boss-employee relations
The buck stops with us. If it doesnt, we'll keep fostering versions of the dysfunction forced on us as kids.
One More Thing I Wanted to Mention...
Submitted by kellyj on
That rapid fire machine questioning. This is a delicate thing to deal with. It's definitely anxiety talking....but if you ignore it....anxiety get irritated with you!!! lol
I've found I tune out a lot because it's really not asking anything. My wife will be in the kitchen (I've told her repeatedly I can't hear her in there when I'm in another room) and I hear something that sounds like her anxiety talking again.....with a pause. Then she'll come in say "HELLO!!"...in an irritated voice.
This is where...I pick and choose my battles and battling with anxiety is a losers game. "Yes dear...can I help you?" ...is no skin off my nose. Take it or leave it....it's not big deal. She just needs that check in for some reinforcement and little reassurance...to tell her it's every things Okay before she can go back to what she's doing and feel alright about it.
Even when she's in the other room and can't remember....I can't hear a word she's saying!! lol ratta tat tat tat tat tat tat tat tat!!!! lol
It's all good:)
J
Yep...For me it was being overcome w/ hopelessness....
Submitted by c ur self on
It's the taking it personally, (because it is personal, even if it's not intentional) that use to rev up my emotions so often. Many of J's points (most all) bring back some what painful memory's....The simple patiently waiting in line thing....Do you know what it does to a relationship when the side walk is lined with people (in New Orleans) waiting patiently to order a Beignet and coffee...And your wife want shut up trying to convince you (and walks off and leaves you) that we don't have to stand in line like everyone else?? When a mind lives like the world and everybody in it is there for their taking....You better believe them when they show you! That is if you want to have your own life:)
Or when a safety fence w/ signs that says Danger do not go past this point, but, you have to walk back to the bus alone because to your spouse that sign just means GO GO GO..??
So I under stand your desire to be here to learn Now, as am I....I had no social skills that readied me for this:), I was drowning!...And all I could do was cry out "What to do??? There is nothing I can do....But manage my own emotions and don't regret doing the right thing, no matter the out come....And the most important thing to remember (for me) because of the effects of denial...Never address it verbally!
C
C...I Have No Idea...
Submitted by kellyj on
What that trying to convince you to jump ahead in line things is?? I wouldn't do it either if I were you. Like I said.....patience and waiting has never really been a big issue for me even when I was a kid. I guess when you grow up with 3 women in the house....waiting for them to get ready is part of daily life! My mom took forever and we were always waiting on her to leave the house.
It was the one thing...that my dad and I did during these times that became a ritual for us. Without even saying a word. The deck of cards came out...and we were playing Gin Rummy automatically until my Mom and sisters were ready to go anywhere. We both got pretty good at it....needless to say:)
J
J
Good morning, C
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
I appreciate your post.
And your commitment to doing your best and seeking to grow, from your side of the relation. It's the bottom line for each of us, isn't it?
Yes Now....
Submitted by c ur self on
Yes...If we don't accept the reality of our own vulnerabilities and tendencies we are only deceiving ourselves...I know my wife, our children know her....She lives to pressure you to Succumb to her way of thinking...It's the reality!....Like a child...
I've struggled over the years or trying to point out what she doesn't see as a problem....So the pain....So now I'm just doing my best to focus on me.....
C....This is For You Buddy
Submitted by kellyj on
"It becomes ours."
One my favorite movie quotes of all time! lol Enjoy.
https://youtu.be/6NjLTnI9uGM
Something Came To Mind ...C
Submitted by kellyj on
In what and you and NON are saying....I remembered something my T said in relationship to Attachment Theory and being with different people. Or in a relationship with different people. I think many who come here have been married to ONE person much of their adult lives. Unfortunately in some ways....I wish I could say the same thing. But going along with what he said he has seen many times himself...will concur with what I have experienced.
As he put it..."I've seen couple get divorced many times in my career. And the power balance with one person....can go either way depending on who they are with." One women he referred to specifically...had been with a man who had much messier habits that she did. She ended in a very familiar scenario that you hear on this forum. The couple ended up getting divorced and eventually....the woman met someone new and they ended up getting married.
As it turned out....the man she married was much more fastidious than she was going the other direction. She now found herself in weaker position and began acting more like her ex husband because it. This is that insecure attachment coming into play here and I found this to be absolutely true. Just because it feels good to be in a power position isn't always a good thing.
Look up competing sensitivities...or competing neurosis if you want to look at how this can play out. In our situation....my wife and I have some competing sensitivities which basically means....the same ones so they exacerbate one another. I can tell you straight up....this is better than competing neurosis which was what my ex wife and I had happening. Opposites might attract at first....but they are much more difficult to overcome.
At least with competing sensitivities...it's easier to relate with and understand even if they're in competition with each other. More like musical chairs and their only one left when the music stops. lol
Competing neurosis felt more like your are emotionally being pulled apart by two trackers going in opposite directions and you are chained in between the two. This gives you an idea at least...how one is much more difficult to manage than the other and how the power balance can dramatically change depending on who you are with.
fyi: Neurosis as he was referring to it....doesn't mean you have a disorder. Like attachment theory...most everyone has there tendencies to fall into one category or another even if it falls in the "normal" range for all people.
As my T put it.."everyone act these ways at times." He himself who you think would automatically knows better...has moments when his emotions get the better of him. Even with his own ADHD son for doing the very thing he has done himself. Just because you know a lot about this stuff....can't make you perect.
J
I've never heard of this, but
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
I've never heard of this, but I'm definitely going to look it up. Thank you so much for the information!