This is something that has been on my mind ever since reading Melissa's book. Whilst my OH has an extreme case of inattentive ADHD, with some hyperactive traits, and we have profound problems in our relationship, I can't see the dynamic between us as parent/child. He has always been the more assertive, insistent one; if I ever questioned or suggested how things might be done he just told me he was right and I (I am very trusting, very credulous, very insecure) tended to believe him. Even things like hanging out with his ex, or me having to do all the driving, or cleaning, or me being left to cope alone with work and a small baby while he went away on expensive business trips that never led to anything: his attitude was right and I was wrong and I pulled apart my psyche to accept that not only was I exhausted and depressed and lonely, I was wrong to be all those things. I should be fine; I should be happy. It was quite right that we spent every summer holiday with this woman who made my skin crawl, quite right that I did the driving since we only ever went places I wanted to go (his parents' house? I don't think so!), and quite right that he had all this time away from home, staying in hotels and coming home with no new work but expensive treats for himself, since other husbands of our acquaintance did this (they, however, were primary breadwinners; I was the sole breadwinner at the time and I was at home with the kids).
Now I'll readily accept that I am not a normal person - whatever that is - I was brought up with a narcissistic parent and that has profound effects. I have had a couple of ACEs (adverse childhood experiences) that make me even more likely to accept bad situations and blame and shame. I have a powerful ability to believe myself to be in the wrong. But even then, I do not see that I have been critical and parented this man. I, rather than him, have been targeted as the faulty one in this marriage. Rather than Parent/Child I see it now more as a Cult Leader / Follower dynamic, or a Crazy Dictator / Subject dynamic. Things go wrong between us when I step out of that enabling and adoring role, when I ask a question, or state a preference that does not concur with his. From his POV all the problems are of my causing; all I needed to do was what he wanted and everything would be right. Even when he got his ADHD diagnosis the 'problem' was not the ADHD; the problem was my own particular personality, which meant I was uniquely incapable of dealing with his ADHD. And there is always this hinterland of faults and problems he has with me, that he will say is there, but will not talk specifically about any of the issues he has because he's just 'not that kind of person.' So I am to understand that there is this catalogue of bad karma just hanging there, proof of my guilt and badness, but he's too big a soul to tell me how I have transgressed.
Day to day behaviour makes it clear he considers me a lesser person than him in almost every possible way, even though, if i was feeling strong enough, I could point to clear evidence to the contrary (eg I have a PhD and am a recognised expert in my field; he is always ready to tell me I'm wrong about things I have extensive professional understanding of, and about which he has no direct experience). I am in no way a parent to him.
Writing this has made me more clear on the probability that he is also a narcissist. So maybe what I'm dealing with is that. One condition blurs into another.
But I guess I want to know if anyone else has similar or 'other' dynamics. Is there a messier, more complicated picture out there, possibly because of the fact that conditions like this tend to cluster, than just the binary of Parent/Child?
Oh yes
Submitted by Swedish coast on
Parent-child is a narrow description that I feel can't cover my ex-relationship either.
In your case, it's clear that an ADHD partner can show dominant behavior. I partly share that experience. My ex husband was always very assertive in his fields of interest and profession, that among other things included child-rearing. He made me feel small at times in our family. In the end, he treated me with contempt.
Between us, there was this increasing gap in which fell things he had set opinions on, but no ability to shape. He started to compromise with his opinions as to make them fit his decreasing abilities. Finally, nothing made sense anymore and I lost trust in him.
I've seen how the ADHD person can put up a lot of arrogance to defend actions that are a result of weakness. This has nothing to do with parent-child dynamic in my eyes. It's no less than frightening to a co-parent.
thank you
Submitted by honestly on
Thank you, Swedish. It helps to hear that. It does sound quite similar to my situation. X
Righteous/ Self-righteousness
Submitted by J on
Hi Honestly,
I could not come close to explaining this concept better than an article I just found. This is way above my pay grade!
Having said that, I recognized self righteousness as the ongoing theme in things you said but in particular...the term "cult leader". The article I'll include, sounds very much like what you described. It also didn't come right out and say it, but it perfectly described some of these TV Televangelists who clearly ( at least to me ) are doing it for the huge amounts of money they make.
After rereading Melissa's blog post about Narcissism, I realized there are other things that look like it, but really are something different. I'm no longer using this term because it limits you from seeing other possibilities once you put that label on someone. However, once you stop using that term, it still requires you to describe the thing you're seeing.
For me, it's easier to see self righteousness in people, than it is calling them a Narcissist. I do understand the two terms are synonymous but that doesn't mean they are a "Narcissist".
But does it mean that a person that tends to be self righteousness is probably higher on the sliding scale of narcissism? Probably so.
But the idea of righteous/ self righteousness is a new term for something that can pretty easily be seen in a cult leader or a Televangelist.
Here's the article: Psychology Today - Righteous vs. Self-Righteous (edited:link removed)
thank you
Submitted by honestly on
very interesting- thanks!
Your Welcome : )
Submitted by J on
.
It’s about responsibility
Submitted by Catterfly on
Hi honestly,
Parent/child to me is about who does the chores without having to be asked or reminded, and who has the big picture of the house management?
My husband's behaviour is the same as what you describe. There's a lot of built up mythology in our relationship that I was the needy one, or the one who was wrong, when in reality I was seeking his emotional support (and would get nastily thwarted), or was seeking to resolve a conflict which would result in RSD.
What you describe sounds like ADHD to me.
mythology
Submitted by honestly on
That sounds right- mythology- and it messes with my head! I feel like I'm on such unstable ground all the time. It's like a worse, more intense version of not being heard. I feel like my understanding of reality is invalidated. I feel like I almost don't exist anymore.
Not good!
Submitted by Catterfly on
That's called gaslighting, honestly! So many of us have been there, and it's so so detrimental to mental health - and physical health as well! Whether it's done deliberately or not is irrelevant to the impact to you.
I finally recognized that my husband wasn't willing to look at his own behaviour or his impact on the rest of the family. I left a month ago. I now have to sell our house, move to a new town and potentially away from our support systems, and almost start over financially. But my health is already improving as evidenced by a lower heart rate and much better sleep.
I hope you'll consider the alternatives to living through this. We're here to support you no matter what you decide.
Thank you
Submitted by honestly on
I did use the word 'gaslighting' in a discussion with him the other day. I said 'It's like gaslighting' but couldn't go fully there. I have had historically a natural tendency to automatically believe I am in the wrong, which I am only now shaking off. It has made this all the more difficult. I already didn't trust myself before any of this started. which makes me think again about the narcissist choosing a subservient partner. Did he choose me because it was clear I would accept this nonsense when other women wouldn't? With his ADHD it could also be forgetting and it could be lying for convenience (he does both; but then he could be lying about the forgetting!) so I don't know where I stand. Or, as you say, if it even matters what he intends since the effects are the same anyway.
I’m sorry
Submitted by honestly on
that you have so much to contend with. That's a lot. I admire your integrity and tenacity.
I have tried to leave three times now. First time he threatened suicide. I soon learned from a doctor's letter about treatment for anxiety and depression that he showed me (he considered it an official document proving he was in a bad way- he wanted to make me feel guilty) that they didn't think he was at any risk whatsoever. It had a code on it that I looked up - he hadn't- that they use to classify the severity and this made it clear he was in no danger. Mild anxiety. Situational depression. Bluff. So I tried again- I was just going to walk, but my daughter's distress stopped me. I postponed till she was past a difficult milestone. I tried again, and her distress was not lessened. It was so bad I couldn't bear it - I decided in the end that I'd rather I was unhappy than she was. If I am ever going to leave, I have to work on bearing her pain. And her pain might lessen when she is no longer a child at home. And I might get more callous and selfish. The thing is, she sees the problems- some of them, very clearly indeed - but she still loves him and worries about him. But the one time we separated briefly, he spent the time catching up with friends, going sightseeing, eating out and buying insanely expensive clothes for himself, while I looked after her. I don't think she really needs to worry.
About him, anyway. On the other hand, my BP is insane.
Unjust
Submitted by Swedish coast on
It's unjust of him to threaten with suicide. I'm upset to hear it. All these demands on you - that you're to be subservient so he can push you around, and that your daughter thinks you should look after him... none of it seems fair to me.
I could never know what's right for you. It just seems to me a child cannot dictate what's possible for a parent to handle, or what's fair. You in my eyes are the most important person here. Since you are the more dependable parent, you are your daughter's safety net. You must keep intact to be able to protect her and help her grow up.
Says the woman who had to be told by a doctor to get out at all costs, and only then asked for divorce. The GP told me I had to do it for the children. He also said the children would blame me, or us, for this and complain about me in therapy later. But as I've been through this divorce and after, I've realized everybody will be blamed by their children, and everybody has hurt their children. It's acceptable. It's in some cases inevitable. We will have to ask for forgiveness and forgive. This has been so liberating, I've actually been able to forgive my own parents this year. It's one of the greatest milestones in my adult life.
Dear Honestly, I appreciate you so much on the forum. To me it's obvious you are not weak. You are incredibly strong to have pulled this heavy load so long for your child.
so much to think about
Submitted by honestly on
thank you, Swedish. There's so much to think about here.
I agree it's wrong to hand a child this kind of power; I'm ashamed of having done so, but I made it clear it was my decision to take and I was taking it. She was not making the choice or forcing me. Underlying it all is my experience of narcissistic parenting. I was brought up to understand that other people matter more than me. I see the patterns now but it does not make them easy to break.
It begins to look like she might be now siding with him as the injured party. This is hurtful, but understandable. It's possibly temporary too, since he will waft away before long and leave her hanging. I shall trudge on, be there for her, but perhaps with a more realistic image of our relationship. And I shall have her leaving home in eighteen months or so as the threshold of me starting a new life too. She can then decide what her loyalties and needs are.
I was very struck by what you said about parents and children more generally. These past few years have been transformational in my understanding of my relationship with my parents, unpicking and restitching the whole thing, arriving at something of an understanding and accommodation and forgiveness. I'm thankful I got here before they died. And I guess that this is what I need to come to terms with. I have tried to be too much, to make up for his inadequacies. She won't love me more for it, and it's killing me anyway. So I need to do me and let her do her. As soon as I am able. Or she is.
Shame
Submitted by Swedish coast on
Shame has been hard on me too. Especially that I unconsciously believed I needed approval from other people to get a divorce. This is painful and I'm still ashamed. It's perhaps because like you, I was taught to not trust my emotions and not place boundaries. I'm an adult, I shouldn't have let those misapprehensions guide me.
But let's face it, we're not individuals in a void. We, and I mean mothers specifically, are very much a part of society. Society puts impossible tasks before us. We are supposed to cherish, love and give out to our family, no matter how little we receive. No matter how dysfunctional and sick or mean our partners are. No matter if we have to take on both the traditionally male and female responsibilities of the family. No matter if we have zero support from extended family. Every move we make is judged and we are routinely blamed for everything. Finally, were blamed if we become bitter in the end.
This is rigged so there is very little breathing space for a mother if she doesn't stand up for herself and deny her universal responsibility.
Shame, my friend, is not about you and me, it's patriarchy. We may feel shame, but that doesn't make it morally true. In my eyes, you and I have very little reason to blame ourselves.
Thank You Catterfly....
Submitted by J on
for clarifying the parent child dynamic and what it's referring to. That was my understanding as well. I've felt like I've been doing a very good job of holding up my end of the household chores and there really has been no conflict in that area. When I tried to approach that topic with my SO, she pretty much shut down any continued conversation in that area but not before I had a chance to make an appeal to her that if there was anything else I could do, I'd be more than willing to make sure she wasn't holding any hard feelings and she wasn't. She just said, she's very particular about certain jobs and she'd rather do those herself. I even offered to do the cat box but she said nope!.....she doesn't want anyone doing it aside from her. And I can't make her let me do the cat box!! Lol
So, okay then. I did my part in making sure she had no hard feelings there. She runs a tight ship inside the house and only wants help when she asks. I've also found, that trying to help too much only annoys her further.
But that emotional support or outward shows of affection and being demonstrative in most physical ways including sex.....that's a whole different story. It comes far and few between, and when it does come, it not exactly what I was looking for. I've had to change my focus a bit, to actually see those things from a different angle. They're there...you just have to look harder, and in different places than you'd normally expect to find them.
parent/child
Submitted by honestly on
I think this dynamic also covers not just what people do, but how the individuals come to feel about what they do. And I don't think this maps onto me and him in that respect. I do the vast majority of household tasks and all the mental load. He skims along, comes and goes, does his own thing. But I think we both established that dynamic because we both thought he was more important than me. It's like he's the guru and I'm the acolyte, and things only 'go wrong' when I kick against that.
Hi honestly....
Submitted by c ur self on
You're description is one of a narcissist...(controlling, self centered, and demands they are right, when they are dead wrong!) Many people who have adhd will also have other traits when diagnosed...Narcissist's will look for partners (whether consciously or not) who are weak in standing up for themselves (people pleasing types) and their opinion's...There is not enough room on that throne for two...They have to have a subservient spouse/life partner....My Dad was one (passed away now)...I don't have to tell you how unhealthy of a situation you are in...I suggest you find a good counselor if you don't already have one....The fear of boundaries and standing up for ourselves is much scarier looking on pre-boundaries, than actually setting them....Most manipulative controlling types are highly dependent also...So when faced w/ boundaries (their gravy train being upset) they will balk...But accountability and mutual respect is the only way to correct a dysfunctional relationship...What ever that might mean....
Prayers and good wishes to you!
c
One other thing...You might find some good articles on emotional invalidation interesting and helpful....
that’s me!
Submitted by honestly on
Or it was - so subservient. I think one of the problems we've been having is that I have changed- I've been doing some work on myself, coming to an understanding of my upbringing and my early experiences. I've been uncovering a more integrated sense of self. I know myself a little better now and have some compassion there, for what I've been through and the survival strategies I employed. And I feel I can see him more clearly now, now I give myself the credit of being an adequate human being whose feelings and opinions are valid. The change in me isn't sitting too well with him. He preferred the old, unwell, unhappy, pathologically subservient me.
Thank you for your tip on emotional invalidation. I shall go chase that up right now.