I must admit, I re-read some words last night that I had originally thought would be a huge catalyst in sending my relationship in a new direction:
"If you keep your boundaries, those who are angry at you will have to learn self-control for the first time, instead of “other control,” which has been destructive to them anyway. When they no longer have control over you, they will find a different way to relate. But, as long as they can control you with their anger, they will not change."
This is a quote from the book "Boundaries." http://www.boundariesbooks.com/articles/boundaries/others-resist-your-bo... (HELLO MR. ADMIN. I am not sure if this link is allowed. If it disappears, I will realize it needed to be removed :) )
I surely was NOT prepared to have had to deal with resistance for 4 years. LOL, I guess I STILL thought I had some sort of control over this relationship. Let's see, the Peace-at-all-costs game was a bust. Maybe the opposite will be the answer.
Where I am, is in a place of disappointment - that my change in behavior did little more to improve my relationship than the other behavior patterns I had been doing.
The light bulb of understanding popped on today. My change in behavior has lifted my self-esteem 99%.
From my perspective, I do not want to be in a relationship with a man who is angry, who denies things, and will not admit his behavior has anything to do with our relationship problems. Thus it is possible that the answer will be that I will leave, and he may not care. OK, I think he will care to some degree, but not enough to want to make it better.
As I have said often enough recently, and find it a very painful sentence to type: It is a bitter pill to swallow.
Liz
I too have found that setting
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
I too have found that setting boundaries helps me, but it has had little to no effect on my husband. Think of what a boundary is: it's a fence. A fence doesn't make a wild animal tame or a thief into an honest person but it does give some protection to the person who doesn't want to be exposed to the animal or the thief. Sometimes getting that protection is the best we can do.
Rosered,
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
Rosered,
I just am still dumbfounded at what I have discovered abut "marriage" during these past 4 years. I have been highly disappointed in my own expectations. Who knew? Not me.
Liz
Marriage should be a team
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
Marriage should be a team sport in which the spouses are on the same team. Unfortunately, in many of the marriages described on this forum (including mine), the spouse with ADHD seems to think the point is for the spouses to compete with each other. It stinks, doesn't it?
Competition for some, Feeling Controlled for me
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
Rosered,
Have you read th the book The 5 Love Languages by Gary Chapman? They are gifts, quality time, words of affirmation, acts of service, and physical touch. I guessed my own Love Language was gifts, however it ended up being Words of Affirmation. I was surprised by that outcome! My spouse would not do the assessment. He simple said "I know mine - it is physical touch - sex."
I feel very disconnected from my spouse in several ways. Dealing with an angry person is draining. I also have yet to feel HEARD, VALIDATED, ACKNOWLEDGED. Those are important to me. I do not need fawning and drooling and smothering.
My spouse gets angry at me and says, "I said I was sorry." He does this in exasperation, and anger and gruffness. He somehow understand he "needs" to apologize, yet he does not seem to be understand or accept that his actions had anything to to with the situation. It is Liz's sensitivity. Liz's standards. Liz's unattainable expectations. He will also do "something" and believe that one gesture will Fix-It-All. I see them as Relationship Band-Aids. Yes, they are calming and may sooth the pain for a bit, but they do not heal what is underneath - the hurt from the patterns of behavior.
Hey, the only thing I have to compare to is what I have. I just read this new part of the 5 Love Languages, our Apology Profile:
"Of course in couple's work, it is important to understand your spouse, and attempt to give them what they need. Assume that, in each scenario, you and the other person have a relationship in which it is in both of your best interests to maintain a respectful and considerate attitude. In other words, if the relationship is damaged in some way by the other person, assume that the relationship is important enough that you feel it necessary to receive the other person’s apology when he/she has offended you. Also, assume that the “offender” is aware of his/her offense because you have expressed your hurt in some noticeable, direct way."
Wow, this ideal reads like a romance novel. Is this real? Do people really get this from their spouse? Mine will only deny, deflect, and do his best to stamp out any feeling I try to express.
I want more. I need more. I cannot just settle for "this is the best I can get."
Behavior towards me that I have accepted has worn me out and depleted every ounce of my sense of wife.
Liz
Liz,
Submitted by Strangebird on
Liz,
I know this won't help, but reading your post, it's like you're reading my mind. I'm just so envious of the easy relationships I see in other couples. My husband actually tells me that those couples are all acting, that they're fair tales, I'm exhausted just thinking about spending the rest of my life walking on eggshells knowing that even when we're not fighting , that the good times will be converted into something ugly at a later time during a fight. My friends say to "work it out", but they don't understand that I'm a caregiver for a very mean and angry man. Sure, when he's good, he's very very good, but when he's bad, he's horrible. With no warning. Loneliness can't be this lonely!
Liz, I can sense your great
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
Liz, I can sense your great suffering. Is there anything that we here on the forum can do for you? I think there are things that your husband CAN do to help, but I don't think he WILL do them.
there's the rub
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
Rosered,
I agree. As I have discovered during this recent year - it is unknown to me and probably also to my spouse why he does-not/cannot/will-not comply with any sort of advice. Not just regarding our marriage and poor habits he developed by surviving this long with his previously undiagnosed ADHD, but in regards to letting go of anger. He has some sort of payoff by holding on and digging in his heels.
I have felt nauseous and in a state of disbelief for quite a long bit. It is time. It is my time.
It really seems like reliving the circumstances of another horrible incident that happened in my life a little over 8 years ago.
When my niece was 10, we found out she had leukemia. The sort she had was "the best" type that could have happened to her. Most curable, it was discovered at the perfect age - before puberty.
Fast forward, and on the week she was going in for her 5 year celebration of being cancer free, it was discovered the leukemia had returned. So she had a bone marrow transplant. Went through with flying colors. No host-versus-graft. She was home before the usual and customary 100 days. She finally got her puppy.
Then she went to the doctor for the flu - but it was not the flu, the leukemia came back. There were no other options for her. A little over 6 months later, our family lost her. Leukemia took her to Jesus.
She was a few months past her 19th birthday when she died. During those ten years that she battled, I knew that I knew that I knew she would not die. It was hard, but all the chips were in her favor.
And we lost her anyway. It shook me to my core. It gave a whole new understanding to being powerless. I felt powerless.
When I found this forum 4 years ago, I had that same optimistic outlook as I did for my niece. I knew that I knew that I knew, this would help us.
I HAVE benefited a lot. I have learned a lot. Alas, it did not help me save my marriage. I am powerless. I am dumbfounded. I am particularly feeling way out of my own physical being. In some alternative universe of disbelief.
There is a big difference in these two life stories - by the time my niece had breathed her last breath, we had all gotten to that place of serenity, that place where we could almost rejoice that her suffering had ended. The bittersweet end to her walk upon God's green earth, to the arms of Jesus where the pain was no more.
So, the answer to what can be done for me, is what has been done. I have been challenged along the way by people here on this forum. I have heard some harsh stuff about myself I did not really want to hear. But all in all, only those of us who lived through this for 20 some years can REALLY appreciate and understand.
Today - I am sitting in the disappointment and disbelief and pain of "he did not choose me." I will not get that last minute miracle or reprieve.
I will sit with that for a while. But, it WILL NOT get the best of me.
I survived my childhood - I can survive this too.
Liz
I missed something in my last post
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
Rosered,
The answer to the question you asked about what members of this forum can do for me - just what you have been doing - validating, suggesting, and pointing out things in my own words that I did not see clearly.
I have had to sit back and digest a few posts along the way - as they contained truths that were hard to hear, both about myself, and about my spouse. There were at least one or two that I had to just shake off.
I am surely not perfect - my sense is that I am just unwilling to try anything else. I do think there are things my spouse CAN do, but I too do not think he will or can.
Liz
It's so hard. I'm at the
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
It's so hard. I'm at the point at which the only way I can see of getting out of the holding pattern I'm in is to get a divorce. That's such an unpalatable fact, but it's there, and I need to deal with it. Even after all this time in a dysfunctional relationship, the thought of splitting up makes me very sad. But, thinking about staying in this pattern for the rest of my life makes me feel worse.
100% agree
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
It is like I am in the twilight zone. It is unreal as can be. I gotta start some placce to more on with my life.
Step 1. I admit I am powerless over . . . . . .the actions of my spouse.
Step 2 &3. I turn the care of my sanity over to God/Jesus.
Step 4. Will take another searching and fearless inventory of Liz.
Liz
I am so happy this forum
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
I am so happy this forum exists. Most people here will understand what I'm saying and believe me when I describe my relationship, despite the fact that it is unreal and is like the Twilight Zone. (Good description, Liz.)
Is it 'fact' or is it 'truth' or is it Liz's paradigm.
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
Rosered,
I am reflecting a lot on things I did and did not do - especially in these past 4 years.
Does my spouse ever do the dishes?
Yes.
Does he fulfill his responsibility in doing the chore he has agreed to do? I say no, he says yes.
He randomly washes the dishes - what Liz needed/hoped-for/wanted was shared responsibility in accomplishing the care and upkeep of our home. I have hired a company to dust, vacuum, wash the floors and clean the bathrooms every other Friday.
Do I have a chart to prove or disprove what I experience?
No.
Did we discuss and agree to install 50 feet of 8' privacy fencing to provide a physical barrier between construction materials and our yard?
Yes.
Did we get 2 estimates?
Yes.
Was the best option a company he chose?
Yes.!
Did we schedule the work?
Yes.
Did we have the funds in the bank for the project?
Yes.
Is there fence installed in our yard?
No.
When the company called to confirm the color of the fence, my spouse told them not to install it.
I say he canceled the fence.
He says we cannot afford it.
This felt controlling. This felt disappointing. This felt like old behavior patterns. This felt like total disregard for an agreement.
He changed his mind. I respect that.
I did not change my mind. I do not want to be trampled on in this manner. He believes he is 'right' and I am 'wrong.' This is part of the behavior pattern that will not change.
As long as we live in the same house, only exchange "hellos" and I have no opinions or expectations or desires, things are peaceful.
That is crazy.
That gets us into the probability of "He said" "She said". I have no time for that anymore.
I want a relationship. I do not want to be on guard all the time to prove everything. I respect his opinion that I am too demanding, and that I expect perfection, and that no one will BELIEVE what he has to put up with being married to me.
Yep. Indeed. the Twilight Zone.
Liz
"As long as we live in the
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
"As long as we live in the same house, only exchange "hellos" and I have no opinions or expectations or desires, things are peaceful."
In my case, as long as we live apart, my husband and I never communicate, and I have no expectations of him, things are peaceful.
no expectations
Submitted by dedelight4 on
" As long as we live in the same house, only exchange "hellos" and I have no opinions or expectations or desires, things are peaceful"
That's been our life for a long time. I know he wants more, but without being able to actually TALK about things. we don't get anywhere.
Hi DeDe...
Submitted by c ur self on
As boring as it is...Have you thought about scheduling?
My wife loves for me to make schedules...A person who is distractible, always rushing, scattered and forgetful really needs some help. (w/o enablement) So, if I make a schedule, she will hyper-focus on the next thing on it....Sometimes! lol....
It didn't work well in the beginning because I made it too elaborate, to overwhelming....But, if I make it something she can deal w/ we get more accomplished that way.
c ur self...good suggestion.
Submitted by dedelight4 on
C ur self, that's a very good suggestion. Dh DOES like schedules, so he might like that. It's worth a try. I will see what I can come up with. The only hard part for me right now is, with the severe pain level I have now, it makes it really difficult to plan things. But, I will certainly give it a try and see what happens. Hugs and thanks
Proof is good
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
<<,<<<
Does my spouse ever do the dishes?
Yes.
Does he fulfill his responsibility in doing the chore he has agreed to do? I say no, he says yes.
He randomly washes the dishes - what Liz needed/hoped-for/wanted was shared responsibility in accomplishing the care and upkeep of our home. I have hired a company to dust, vacuum, wash the floors and clean the bathrooms every other Friday.
Do I have a chart to prove or disprove what I experience?
No.
>>>>>
I think because those with ADHD only remember NOW, not the "not now", charts are a BIG help.
For awhile, My H would say something like, "It's been 6 weeks since Ive gone golfing," when it may have only been 1 or 2 weeks. I would say, "no, you went golfing X weeks ago." And H would argue with me. So, I started marking the calendar whenever H had a Tee Time. Then, when he'd say that it had been 6 weeks (the magic number, for some reason...likely because it "sounded" like it's been a long time since he golfed), I would point to the calendar and say, "no, you just went 2 weeks ago," (or whatever).
This may seem petty, but time is so vague to those with ADHD. They use their "vague time" to benefit themselves and they use their "vague time" against you. (i.e. You haven't cooked my favorite meal in a year. No, I made it last month for Labor Day.)
When my H and I first started dating, we worked at the same place. He had a different job than I had, and his job had Extremely lenient Flex Time. He was supposed to work 40 hours per week....Monday thru Friday....., but could come in between 7-9am....take a lunch hour between 11am-1pm....and leave between 4-6 pm. I soon noticed that H was arriving at 9am, leaving at 11am taking a 2 hour lunch, and leaving at 4 pm.
After a FEW MONTHS of this, I mentioned that he didn't work 40 hours per week. He said, "of course I do, but I have Flex Time". I asked him what time he arrives, takes lunch, and leaves. He told me the right times (likely because it was a set routine). I took out a piece of paper and wrote down that schedule and wrote down how many hours he was ACTUALLY working 5 hours each day.
so, I wrote 5, 5, 5, 5, 5 = 25 hours per week. He was in total shock and disbelief. HE didn't argue, because he knew that it was absolutely true since it was his strict daily routine. H has a bachelors and masters degree in MATH.....yet he never "did the math"!!!!!! At the time, I knew nothing about ADHD, I just thought....how weird is that.
Texts and cell phone time stamps have "saved me" many times. H once called me from the gym asking me to bring his extra car key because he had locked his keys in the car. He said to also bring his gym shoes because he forgot them. I found his shoes, found his extra car keys, put on a jacket and drove to his gym.
When I got there H was angry because supposedly I took "20 minutes to get there." I knew that wasn't true. I pulled out my phone, and saw that he had called 6 minutes earlier. I told him he had called 6 minutes earlier...(showing him the cell phone time stamp). I don't care that proving it made him "feel bad". He needs to "feel bad". He needs to have his "nose rubbed in it" so he'll keep being shown that he's not right about his accusations. I'm not saying I'm doing it meanly. I'm not....I'm doing it in a calm "matter of fact" manner. " Hmmm, you say it took 20 minutes. It is now 5:28 and you called at 5:22...so it took me 6 minutes to get here." I don't need to say it meanly. The words are such a "pie in the face" that a mean tone is not needed....at all.
Has that made a difference? Yes....after having his "nose rubbed in it" over and over again about his "wrong beliefs about time," he now knows that his time perspective is WRONG.
So, I have found that records....calendars, text messages, cell phone time stamps, emails are GREAT for helping H see that his perspective is often extremely wrong.
I dreamed of the day
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
OverwhelmedWife,
All those techniques you mentioned work well for my son .At this point in time, my spouse cannot, will not, does not accept input of any sort - as anything but attacking him. I it is really, really is sad as it appears he is letting our marriage end.
He cries and gets depressed and says he has tried so hard, and he is failing. Sigh. He tries hard - no one probably tries harder - but he puts so much energy into making what he is doing work - and based on results, it does not. I cannot deal with this anymore. It is too much.
And he cannot see his perspective is off kilter. Cannot accept even the possibility that it is.
We just discovered out 23 years old married daughter is very deeply depressed. She hid it well. Even her spouse did not recognize it - So, in my knowledge of her self loathing, and despair, and wanting to just escape are so great - it is worrying us all. Including her Daddy. I am trying to keep my wits about me, as I am very concerned for her well being, and he is feeling every guilty - it is all his fault he says - so he is trying to divert the focus of this disaster on him. I have told him in light of the demise of our relationship - for right now, I need to focus my prayers on her - as this is a real crisis and dealing with him whit his guilt is awful. This is a crisis situation with our daughter - not a repetitive cycle, thus my concern.
I am searching for answers, and life is doing what it does - going on and on. Sigh.
Liz, I'm thinking of your
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
Liz, I'm thinking of your daughter and you. I hope she and you feel better soon.
I came to that place where I
Submitted by Strangebird on
I came to that place where I reluctantly said I couldn't be this angry, I had to let go. Not putting up with it, refusing to "admit" all the crap that he accused me of feeling, thinking, saying, doing, improved my self esteem and I felt better about me, but I just finally said we had to end it. And it was horrible, he was fine with it. Then he went back into hyperfocus, and I slipped right back into idiot mode where I thought he'd realized he was losing me, and finally, after 23 years, was going to recognize that he couldn't live without me. Well, it took one small argument for him to become the ADD person he is, and to cut me to the quick, and rip my guts out with all of his usual behaviors and I'm back to subzero, not even square one. bye bye self esteem, he's back in control, and he's cockey about it, strutting around like a peacock! He sees a psychiatrist this week for meds, but meds aren't going to change how he feels about me, he's never had that "I can't live without her" feeling and never will. He's always been ok with losing me, what a horrible feeling.