I decided to make a new topic based on some things I've read here and a common complaint made by the spouses married to (us) with ADHD. Straight up....the complaint is about how annoying or maybe aggravating it is when your spouse habitually comes to you and says " look, see what I did". It was brought up recently in another post as: "See the progress I'm making."
I've been in this very situation before in the past and at the time.....hadn't given any thought to exactly "why" I was doing it. And my experience from the other side was the same as I have heard here on this forum. I've speculated for myself in a post months ago that it was more of an attempt to "release us" from obligation rather than appearing more child like as "mommy. look what I did."....seeking approval and validation. That's my take on how it comes across from the responses I've read in refernce to this phenomenon. I'm calling this a phenomenon simply because it appears to be a common scenario.
I wanted to share a recent case in point and the results of this as my wife and I actually seemed to come to an understanding of it.
Cutting right to the chase.....it has to do with trust and that's exactly what my wife and I concluded.
From this perspective I think it becomes much clearer to understand from both sides of the coin.
I want to say first....it's very likely this can come from insecurity and a need for validation in part.....but I have long since stopped doing it that way even if I had done this before for that reason.....and yet, here I was having having that "de ja vu feeling" all over again but this time feeling frustrated and somewhat put out.
I decided to approach my wife on the subject the next time she brought it up ( whcih she did) however........me feeling that I was approaching this on much firmer ground on my part.
Here's what happened.
No will would argue for a second that one of my big ADHD issues is getting spread out all over the place with my projects and I can't deny this fact. I'm also not good with cleaning up after myself since projects do take place over time and I do have multiple ones going too. This will appear as no surprise for someone with ADHD. AT best, I'm reasonably clean and organized. At worst, it can look like a bomb went off in the house. These are undeniable facts.
I'm now focusing hard on this problem area and am a making some big step forward ie: developing new habits and strategies to overcome this problem and I appear to making progress. My wife will concur and has said so much more often because of it. I don't need validation. My reward is my own progress and it's already being confirmed.
So the other day...I'm using a back pack blower to clean and tidy up our deck since I made a huge mess by blowing off the roof and gutters of our house. We have large Douglas fir and cedar trees in close proximity so it piles up really fast. By doing this......snall amount of debris find it's way under the back door and into a room off the deck. Small amounts compared to outside but large in relation to anything acceptable indoors. I've done this recently a few times after which I've followed through with sweeping the floor inside so when my wife comes home from work....it looks the same as when she left.....clean and swept.
But this time ( the day in question)...my wife came home early from work. I was still outside finishing the deck area. She immediately went straight for the broom and dust pan and started sweeping an I could tell that she was mad.
"Problem?" I said.
"Yes, every time you use that thing this happens."
"What are talking about?" I replied.
"Two weeks ago you used it and I had to clean up after you too."
I did remembered that day and remembered that I had worked until dark and didn't sweep before she got home.
But here's the part she didn't know about. I've made an extra effort to make sure that whatever I've been doing during the day while she is at work,I've also successfully kept track of time and quit early enough to clean up before she arrived home. I've done this for nearly six weeks without a complaint (including using the blower and sweeping the floor afterwards several times more) since......she'd had nothing to complain about because the house was exactly the same as it was when she left in the morning.
So on this day, she arrived home 2 hours early unexpected and I was still in the process of working and the results was as I just explained
I'll fast forward to the results but say that I started this situation with becoming angry but stopped myself when I realized something.
I'm the boy who cried wolf and she has no idea how many times I've messed up the house and then cleaned up before she arrived. There's no proof or evidence that I did anything at all let alone make a mess and then clean it up too. All she could see was the clean house which proves only that I didn't make a mess....
but yet I did. repeatedly......
and that's why of course, I started to get angry........
But my past and my ADHD tendencies also gave her good reason to make that assumption based on my past.
The end result was that I explained why I started to get angry or frustrated with her response to me and apologized for starting to go there because I saw that I really am the "boy who cried wolf." And after we talked this over for a while, we both saw the dilemma in this scenario which from all sides could easily be seen in this one situation.
But whether she realized this or not.....this kind of thing happens from my perspective more often than she realizes and the dilemma is still exactly the same.
How does the boy who cried wolf ever become the boy who doesn't cry wolf once you have that distinction? the tendency is to point out to your spouse the times you succeed...... to point out the progress you are making because if you don't ( in cases like this one). Your spouse will never know?
In part....the reason why this happened as it did was because I wasn't saying anything or pointing these things out to her because I already know from experience ( and from this forum) that doing this becomes annoying and makes you look insecure and in need of validation which only perpetuates and exacerbates the problem.
My final conclusion to this is that these negative attributes of ADHD really do erode trust.. but trust is exactly what is needed in order for you to more forward and past the problems.
My success in this was accepting my wife's reaction long enough to stop getting angry and see both sides so I could get us to see the dilemma instead of only seeing it as one persons problem or the others. That was the first step in regaining trust on my part.
J
Leaps and bounds!
Submitted by Standing on
Thanks Standing
Submitted by kellyj on
People may not need validation but it is still nice to hear. I think this is also where things get lost. Sometimes you are being thoughtful, considerate and even selfless but if no one can see it then some times the motivation to continue to be this way disappears as well.
In fact....it may give a person more of a reason NOT to after a while.....thinking about our discussion about NPD and other pathological behaviors. I have more to say on that but I will just leave that here in this topic.
Thanks again...it is good to hear soemtimes. lol
J
Great Post, J.
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
J,
I have reread this several times over. I look at my own self in how I could apply this for me.
Where I find myself is that place of "I do not feel I am in a safe environment to have a discussion based on mutual understanding." I gotta sift through a lot of extra chaff to get to the real point of the communication. And in the chaff is lots of prickers that hurt.
Today my spouse came up to me and said, "I need you to help me communicate to our son that he needs to ASK me about using equipment before he just takes it." I said, "OK. Let me think about that."
That got up his hackles. "WHAT is there to think about?"
I said my desire has always been for the three of us to be on the same page with the business. Like having a meeting once a week to overview jobs/plans/equipment uses for other-than-business. It needs to be a mutual benefit. Our son is 25 and also a legal partner in the business, so clear communication is a must - but it is nonexistent at the current time. UNLESS my spouse gets annoyed at us about something. I have suggested Equipment Sign Out Boards or lists. SO FAR, my spouse only is interested in those when HE wanted something that was being used by our son.
Mostly, I do not want to get in the middle. I still keep track of the finances, as they affect my own well being. I have no interest in clawing my way in to help. No energy - it has been futile.
My spouse is working with a coach. My spouse keeps what is discussed close to his vest, so I sorta get a brow beating when something he tries is not clearly visible to me. I gotta respect his opinion that if what he is doing is working, it will show. Still feels like a trap to me, but I am willing to proceed with my ever-guarded self.
Liz
Hey Liz
Submitted by kellyj on
Make him read this....it might make sense to him?
oops....suggest that he read this. ha ha
J
The day may come. . . . . .
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
J,
. . . . however, as of right now, "suggested reading" does not seem to appeal to him. "The ADHD Effect on Marriage", both the printed version and the audiobook, "The Couple's Guide to Thriving with ADHD", "The Five Love Languages", "Driven to Distraction", "Getting the Love You Want", these are all parts of the extensive library of "suggested reading" by counselors, coaches, pastors, and even me, that have been cracked open, but that is it.
The Rick Green and Patrick McKenna video, ADD & Loving It, really resonated with him. However, their further videos go unwatched. He does proudly wear their AD/HD Rock Star t-Shirt. :)
Right now, he is back on the "we will sell the RV" trail. It is looming again, and I stated my boundaries with it are: 1. I cannot help prepare or fix or clean it. (Did that on and off several different times over several different years) 2. Let me know when you find a buyer, and when they pay for it, I will sign the title over, since it is in my name.
Now what I need, Liz needs, to deal with internally is the sheer and utter frustration that comes with "his" decision to sell. After going round and round on the "we will sell - no we won't sell - we will sell - no we won't sell" train, I finally had stated that I want to just keep it, and enjoy it as our own, rather than owning it, yet always treating it with extreme caution since it was for sale, and we had to preserve its saleable value. Sigh, his decision literally make me nauseous. Liz finally came to terms with this RV, and then he upsets the fruit-basket.
Along that line, he had been sleeping out in the RV for the past 6 or so months. Now he is sleeping in the living room again. I asked him if he wanted to sleep in the spare bedroom. He said no. I moved all the toys back to the attic, and asked if he wanted to move his office in there - he had requested that a while back. He said no. He didn't want that room. So I made it into a study for my homework/tests. Out of the main stream. Up stairs on the second floor. Free from the distractions of him and my son "living" - as they absolutely should - and a door to close so I can concentrate and study.
And I'll be gosh darn dammed, he just started to sleep in there. Fills the air mattress, and sleeps. Arrrrggggghhhhhh. I asked, suggested, planned alternates, and then he just takes over.
So, today Liz is feeling a tad hostile. And stepped on. And taken advantage of. And knowing, in tearful overwhelm-ing-nous - (like my word?!?!?!) that I have been pushed over my limit. Too much. Overload. Are you kidding me? what the heck? With all this work, and he communicates NOTHING,, just does. There.
So I cannot be patient. I cannot be kind. I cannot be understanding. I cannot.
Will not.
Wont.
Liz
Ya Know...Somtimes!!
Submitted by kellyj on
I've been having lots of flashbacks lately......not drug ones, the other kind. ha ha And my wife and I were just sharing one that is so much part of one of my triggers and I really just came to see this one. It has to do with the thing you're talking about. I can understand.
Mine goes all the way back to remembering trying to talk to my mom about important things....problems or difficult subjects. Whenever she would get to a place where it was too uncomfortable ( back then I didn't realize this)....she would either say "NO" or "wait". Wait for what? What the hell are you talking about? I'm talking about "X" and am waiting for some response from you like....I'm not sure or.... I don't know right now let me think about it..... or I can't give you an answer because this is getting to upsetting. These things I can understand and resound to. "Wait" or "NO" doesn't not compute.
Do you like raspberries or peaches? "Wait".....huh? Let's try this again. RAS-BER-RIES....PEA-CHES........"NO" What the hell?
"Is it further to New York......or by plane?" I use to say to her..... or something like it in these moments. She would just look at me with a sort of bewildered look not getting my sarcasm.
We all ( our family) knew that "No" or "Wait" meant whatever it was she just simply didn't want to talk about it....which meant the conversation was over.
I realize now that this way of "non communication" is a trigger point for me and I get pissed off at people when I see them doing some form of this including my wife. I also realize that it is just that....a trigger point and I shouldn't react to people when they are struggling with something like this including my sarcasm no matter how funny I think it is. Unfortunately....my responses like this did get a lot of laughs from other family members which only exacerbated the problem.
My poor Mom......I didn't give her an inch sometimes.
J
Ah, yes, but. . . . . . . . .
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
I also realize that it is just that....a trigger point and I shouldn't react to people when they are struggling with something like this
J,
I am reading this from the Non-ADHD spouse sitting on the outside looking in - in to that deep chasm of mystery. TRY to understand. TRY to look at it differently. TRY to not hit the trigger points. TRY. TRY. TRY.
I am at the end of my tether. Is it odd to say I do not know how to make a decision with confidence? This needs to be about me - not about my spouse. Not about what he did or didn't do.
But rather about my own mental and emotional sense of sensibility. And how broken this all feels. And coming to terms with, "Why, since I have lived this for so long, is it now clear as a bell that I am living in an absolute lie?" Redundant question.
Maybe I hit the proverbial wall.
LOL, today I sent a lot time telling myself I don't want to think about this stuff. What a perfect waste of my time. It is in my face.
Liz
Confident decisions
Submitted by Standing on
Step 1 is to get very territorial about the space on this planet that is occupied by you alone.
Fluff out your feathers, bobble your head, and squawk when intruders approach your study.. Ermm... Nest.
You did decide. Stand on that decision? Builds confidence. And when the rooster crows, tell him to go hatch something.
You Go Girl...ha ha
Submitted by kellyj on
ditto
was hoping that'd make Liz smile :)
Submitted by Standing on
I know it's easier said than done, but gets more natural feeling with practice. This morning is another performance .here. Finally a day off and he is marching repeatedly back and forth across our little floor, talking loudly into his phone headset and pumping himself up about his next work scheme, not a care about his volume or me or the disruption he carries along with him. He told the guy on the phone that he is about to drive to another town, a 65 mile round trip, to get a certain pastry he likes. Let those cravings and impulses drive!! Anything to avoid dealing with reality.
On edit: He left, with all the lights and tv still on in the room, and what a relief. I just recognized.. I used to feel guilty for being relieved, like there was something lacking in me.. so i would try harder to be patient and tolerant.
I NEVER blamed him, always myself, and he was dandy with that. And now that i have failed to disintegrate beneath the crushing weight of his symptoms and his personality, i have the outrageous gall to want him out of the house? You bet i do.
Just Hit Me Standing...
Submitted by kellyj on
he is about to drive to another town, a 65 mile round trip, to get a certain pastry he likes. Let those cravings and impulses drive!! Anything to avoid dealing with reality.
this is such a perfect scenario to help explain my car analogy....the N is steering the car while the ADD drives the vehicle. Actually this is even better. His favorite pastry he needs (or deserves) the N...........is fueled and driven by driving 65 miles to get it ( the ADD)
Can't get any better way to see the two working together than this....back to my analogy but better.
If it wasn't N and being neurotic or OCD instead.....it would be a different set of circumstances and a different behavior but the ADD/ADHD would be the driving force that pushes you to do it. Yes , yes , yes!!
Perfect!
J
PS... who drives 65 miles for donuts....I mean really?
lol! i know, right?
Submitted by Standing on
Quick Story....
Submitted by kellyj on
My uncle....my father's younger brother....was a great guy....very very different than my father (clue #1)
Story was told and retold in my family how my uncle was so irresponsible. I just thought he was easy going and rather kind and friendly and didn't seem to worry about things too much......the opposite of my father (clue #2)
The story that always was told to explain his irresponsibleness was how he ( when he was a boy )...was sent out to get a loaf of bread and some milk from the store. On the way he met some friends who talked him into playing baseball with them. Two hours later he returned with other grocery items but no milk or bread. (clue #3)
I've always wondered where I got my ADHD from?????? Any ideas?
j
Can you see how
Submitted by Standing on
... I never made the connection to npd? The add morphs it into so much more of a scattered hodgepodge! You really only get the nasties out of him when you cross him... which of course, meek lil me never did!
Good grief, i was N's dream come true!
I've read some folks on other sites, saying that add and npd are direct opposites, cuz N has NO self and add is full of self. Umm... I am here to tell ya, they do coexist and they like bagels!
EXACTLY why I am searching for suggestions and ideas
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
Standing,
January 28, 2011. I got very territorial. In writing. And I feel as I have been fluffing my feathers, bobbling my head, and squawking since. And I KNEW it took us a long time to get where we were, so it would take a while to unravel it all.
Thus my forum moniker, I'm So Exhausted.
I woke up and feel it just really is too hard, and I got no more tears to cry, and I cannot get the results I have anticipated. And in the realm of the marriage, I must realize defeat.
Too bad, really. Trying to live with chronic lateness, procrastination, disorganization and forgetfulness, when they are not acknowledged, or taken responsibility for - when it is up to me to have Plan B, C, D, etc IN CASE he is late, when it is up to me to have Plan B, C, D, etc IN CASE he doesn't get done what he said he would do, when it is up to me to have Plan B, C, D, etc IN CASE he can't find what we need to have amongst the disorganization, when it is up to me to have Plan B, C, D, etc IN CASE he forgets, plus deal with his denial, and turning it all around because "he didn't mean to do it" just has beaten me to a pulp - when it comes to having this marriage work..
Read my previous response to J earlier in this thread, regarding marrying into this family - a monumental endeavor.
I cannot fix it. I cannot help it. I cannot rescue anyone from anything they don't appear to want to be rescued from.
Liz
you know, for ages now
Submitted by Standing on
The Mountains and the Mole Hills
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
J,
I understand what you are saying. The dynamics of it. There were huge dynamics in my in-laws home that were unhealthy.
And you must never mention any of these things. Oh boy, no way!!! But, oh boy, you slice the meat in the wrong direction, and a war exploded. And if Mom doesn't like you, than no body likes you, And if I choose to stay away from the mayhem, there was something wrong with me, and let's try to figure out what Liz's problems are, and "If she would just act like a grown-up we might treat her like a grown-up". Sheesh. So let's not look at any of our family dynamics, IT MUST BE LIZ, yes, that is it, it is HER. Scapegoat.
Did you ever watch "Everybody Loves Raymond?" That was it pretty much - except there was never any glimmer of affection between his parents. It is funny to watch that show now, over 10 years since his parents have passed - but it was HELL living in it.
Glad I had learned early on to get out of that mess. They could dislike me from their house, while I has happy at my house. I did not need their approval to be at peace with myself. While my spouse tried to state "I have left my family to cleave unto my wife" he still also tried to smooth things out and play the same old games. He saw the poor behavior, I just don't see where he ever tried to learn new behaviors to replace the poor ones - so he was left in a big ol' hole of despair. That right there - that is my paradigm of the situation.
I grew up in a tough situation, too. My Dad was an alcoholic. My Mom was depressed. I tried to be The Perfect Daughter. I developed anorexia and bulimia to cope with life. Took years of Al-Anon and early counseling to deal with those factors.
I can love myself, even when someone else disapproves of my choices. I care about myself enough to know if I don't take gentle care me, I can be no good to anyone else.
All the people who I had thought were so much better than I, I pulled them down from their pedestals and placed them on the same playing level as I am. All the people who I had thought I was so much better than, I pulled them up from their level of disdain and placed them on the same playing level as I am.
Keeps me humble. And helps me love myself. Hey, I am the only one of me that I got!!!!!!
Liz
With you in overwhelmingnous
Submitted by Standing on
Great word.
I felt every bit of that because it's where I've lived for seemingly 100 ages. Still at work, so can't properly reply, but I wondered, Liz...seems like I missed a bit about the rv. It's in your name, but it's his tie to his parents (from an earlier post), and clearly is a major source of frustration for him, too. If you want to say... why is it in your name? That seems important to the story.
more later.
To RV or not to RV
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
Standing,
My husband inherited a great deal of money from his parents estate in 2007. We had been planning a 2 week cross country trip with our 2 children and were going to rent an RV. That would have cost appx. $6,000. So we planned to buy an RV, take the trip, and then sell it after we got home. It cost $15,000 and then my spouse put $5,000 of repairs and upgrades into it.
Yep, 2007 and the bottom fell out of the economy and we could not find a buyer at the price we wanted. So on went the big sell it - do not want to sell it push and pull.
He feels it is "part of his parents" since it was bought with inherited $$$. HIS money, HIS inheritance.
This "MINE" thing is really a fairly new phenomena in our relationship. He was so-o intent when we got married that everything was "ours". He was so hard ON ME, if I every said "my house" "my son" etc, , he was forever correcting me.
2 years ago, a man offered us $14,000 for it. My spouse could not sell it. UNLESS he got $15,000.
It has really bothered me to let that investments sit and depreciate when we never used it.
It was always something to stall the sale with my spouse - gotta wax and polish the inside cupboards, etc., etc., etc.,
Now the RV tires are 7 years old, the latches on the under compartments have broken, the roof leaks, the back-up camera does not work, the brakes have an issue, the dash lights have issues, there is a leak in the plumbing . . . . . . . . on and on.
It's all semantics anyway.
We put it in my name when we got it because it would be convenient for ME for getting the license plates etc.
Every single decision is a power struggle. It must be MY SPOUSE'S way. Or he is miserable, thus miserable to live with, thus TA DA. Here I am today trying to get out of this mess with as much grace and dignity I can.
Liz
the 7 year itch
Submitted by Standing on
Believe me, I am always asking :)
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
Standing,
I am here on this forum, pouring out my heart and soul, in hopes that someone will see something amongst my tons of words, that I do not see. I am open always for someone wwho might give me an alternative or suggestion for a different approach.
Liz, stop Making him want to sleep in your study ! ;) I'm sorry. I know it truly stinks.
Hoo, boy, that IS funny! Ain't it the truth though?!?!?!?!? It is the reverse psychology thing. I just am done with that already. Say what you mean, and mean what you say. I have spent many years trying to understand the whole dynamics of my marriage. I have read many an essay here and in books and magazines describing the ADHD affect on marriage. Classic. I am a part of it. Clear as a bell.
I have already had it up the yin-yang of my spouse turning it all back on me. I am not perfect, this I know. I got character defects that God still points out to me. I can only explain to my spouse how his lateness affects my plans. How his disorganization overwhelms me. How his procrastination causes so many un-started and unfinished projects I get overwhelmed, how his forgetfulness hurts.
'Who he is', is a fine fella and a Child of the King. 'What he does' is what the issue is for me. He cannot yet discern his "who" from his "do." 'What he does' is not 'who he is,' yet it is defining him in our struggles.
'Forgetting something and offering an apology',
is such a different critter than
' Forgetting something and yelling at the person who was forgotten, then demanding that they have no right to any emotional response.'
Liz
I'm Still Following You...
Submitted by kellyj on
but maybe my story was incomplete.....Forget trigger points......what's really going on in a deeper level is much like you are saying. Going back in time again since my current situation with my wife and ( my trigger point with her only) is the fact that things were so surreal and disillusioning back in the day....I didn't know up from down half the time. My story involving my mom was just the tip of the iceberg.....just one case of no one talking about the elephant in the living room while in the mean time.....simple questions about peaches and raspberries were being focused on instead....and you still couldn't get a straight answer from anyone.....kinda like living in the twighlight zone. I hear ya......it makes it hard to know what is reality and what is not. Everything seamed like a big mystery because no one would talk about it.....the elephant I mean. Could anyone please tell me why we have an elephant? What elephant? aaaaaaahhhhhh!
That's why I have the trigger point....because of that back then. It hits a nerve and takes a detour back to that time and I react as if I was still there...but yet I'm not.
But can I relate to yours situation? Funny you asked. My father was trying to sell a car of his and he wanted $3,500 for it. A man came to our house and offered him $3,450. I whispered to my dad...take it, take it. Nope...not a dime under $3500. When I asked why he yelled at me. By that time I knew not to push for any reasonable explanation. And he would have been lucky to get that much since the paint was already starting to peel on the hood and it was not anything special as far as cars go. I just walked away.....yet another unsolved mystery??
I know this is not exactly same but what is the same is how you feel.....second guessing yourself and unable to think straight or make decisions because it feels like the ground your standing on is moving and nothing seems to make any sense. I know that feeling.
But it why I start to get angry when people won't give me straight answers to questions....especially about behaviors that effect me. Yes...I do know that feeling.
Another example was my ex wife. She used to say...".I can't give you what you want right now." This went on for years. I finally said to her in my usual sarcastic way when I'm frustrated....."why don't you just drop the right now part I think that would be more accurate." I didn't win any points there but it really was the truth. To this day I still don't know the answer to why exactly. Taking my parts out of it ( anything you want to put on me, my ADHD ..you name it...I'll fess up and come clean) But there was so much with her within this and no reasonable explanations or answers ever emerged even after going to marriage counseling? To me or the councilor? It's still a mystery to a point with only some good guesses to the answers?
I guess the point I'm trying to make here is yes......I do know the deep dark casm of mystery and what it feels like when your in it. That's why it is a trigger point for me.....so that's what I mean now in a general less specific way than your situation about not reacting the same now if someone is doing something that hits that old feeling and I'm still reacting as if I'm still inside the casm when I'm not anymore....if that makes sense.
The only bit of advise or consolation I can give you is pretty much been said.....you can't change him of make him be different and if it's affecting you so adversely that you feel like you are going crazy or losing it...( yes I can relate ). You need to separate yourself either mentally, physically or both to a space where you can glue it all back together again and become whole. You need to focus on you and doing whatever it takes to do just that because it probably will not get better before it gets worse for you. Meaning....he might change over time but your falling apart now. You can't wait for him. You need to do whatever it takes to get yourself to a better place or your not going to be any good for you...or him....or either one of you together.
Sounds like you really need to start being good to yourself....not just protecting yourself from all of his behaviors and issues or trying just to tread water to keep from drowning but finding a way to start treating yourself the way you want to be treated. That doesn't involve anyone else. And if you can't do that with him in the same room...or house....or whatever....then you need to make a change even if it's only for a while until the glue has time to dry a little. Ya know?
J
PS Liz
Submitted by kellyj on
I wanted to add something to what I was just saying to you. I really hate getting unsolicited advise from people sometimes because somtimes....they simply can't relate enough for it to be useful to my particular situation. It can get especially annoying when they become insistent that their method or idea of what will work is going to work for you.
This is exactly what it is like having ADHD. I've said this so many times to people close to me who I have an open dialog with about my ADHD. I have to bite my tongue and not let something like..."opinions are like assholes...and they all stink" out of my mouth because in reality ( apologizing for the crude expression) it is true.
So if this is true.....I only really have myself to rely on to make it better. I'm the only one who knows where my invisible walls are, my stumbling blocks of insecurity, what things I've tried countless times and realized that I was fighting a losing battle and needed to find an alternative route....a way around the wall instead of tying to go through it or simply beating my head against it.
I don't have to understand or know why ( solving the mystery of my brain and ADHD) ...... to do something about it. At this point I'm curious and everything I learn only helps me do the things I'm doing better. But there is ( and was ) a point of being diagnosed with ADHD ( not having any real understanding of it).....then learning about it and educating my self enough so I could start taking the first steps forward.
And at first it seemed like an impossible overwhelming task and not knowing where or how to begin. But the bottom line was that all the educating and learning and understanding the hows and whys didn't do one thing in making any change. It did help me recognize it and see what needed to be done and not feel like everything was such a mystery to me.....that much is true.
But nothing was ever going to be different unless I did something....no one could do this for me. But one thing I did discover rather quickly was how many things I had already done to date over my lifetime....that were good working strategies and adaptations ( or skills) that were in direct response to the ADHD without even knowing I had it.
This is kind of my case in point. Unlike a child with ADHD who really needs a lot of help to develop coping skills .....I found I already had a number of them already and these were my strengths. These are the ones that I continue to use to develop new ones and keep building from there.
All of this is true....but I also had to ( and still do to a point) fight a good deal of co-dependent issues stemming from my childhood insecurities. Whether they are related to having ADHD or not is irrelevant. Being co-dependent is a separate issue with a whole different set of things that I had to work on and do to change from being that way or letting it affect me in negative ways.
And it is exactly the same as what I described about my ADHD. Learning about it and understanding it enough to see it and recognize it....then doing things differently to make a change. But having actually to do something different or no amount of knowledge alone was ever going to change the way I felt inside or alleviate the anxiety that stems from it. Literally breaking free of it was what it felt like. Just like my example of quitting my job and getting away from that grating noise that is always running in the back ground and going....whew! that's is so much better. How freaking annoying was that!
So this is what I'm seeing with you. You've described it in many of your posts repeatedly. I see you pointing at it and not maybe understanding what "it" is.
Melissa even mentioned it in her blog post about pursuit and retreat when she was directly commenting to ( both of us I think?) about "Tough Love" saying something like "it's true you cannot thrive being co-dependent but......" and then she went on to explain the pit falls of the tough love approach.I picked up on this immediately and understood exactly what she was saying. Not because I'm smart but because I've been there. I knew what she meant because I learned how to see it for myself and went through the process of moving past or out of being that way. That's the only reason. I still have to keep an eye out for the bad habits that are left from it.....and the trigger points and remnants of it. But those feelings are gone. The wind has been taken out of those sails and it is not pulling me off course any more.
Now I have to focus on the ADHD but I also know how this works from going through that process before. I had ( and still have ) help to get me through the process from my therapist. And I'm here now learning from all of you in order to do things better and improve.
Liz.....man I see you struggling and I wish I could help....but I see so many things in the things your saying and feeling that I can't help but say look and sound so much like co-dependence. This is coming from experienced not from things I learned. The only thing I learned was how to recognize it and that's what I see.
I know what it feels like and I can relate to it. I see you in it and want to say to you all the things I did or know but just like I said in the beginning of this....that's starts getting too close to unsolicited advise and I could only apply it to myself. I do know this part just like I was saying about my ADHD and people trying make suggestions of what I should do. I think these things all need to be custom tailored to fit each individual to work and one size does not fit all.
I'd look there for a start...if that's true you can do something about it. All hope is not lost. You can change it and do things to stop feeling the way you do right now....for sure!
And like I said before.....knowing my strengths and using them to do it is where it started for me. That and stop beating yourself up and taking better care of you instead of focusing on your husband and his ADHD.
He's going to do what ever he's going to do......that's a statement of fact.
What you do about yourself is not contingent on him in any way. Unless he shackles you to the bumper of the RV you're free to do whatever you want.
Know what I mean jelly bean?
J
PS....sorry if this sounds like lecturing....my wife is pointing this out to me all the time so I do know I do it.......it's that stream of thoughts that go whizzing by.....more like rapids sometimes.ha anyway....I apologize if that's how it comes across but my intention are still sincere. yet another ADHD thing to work on.
Please, lecture away
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
"opinions are like assholes...and they all stink"
I have heard this with slightly different wording . . . . . ending with . . . .'and everyone has one.' LOL! And they all stink, too :)
Ah, the co-dependent word. Can you believe, this past month, I have listening and re-listening to a Joyce Meyer teaching entitled " Freedom from Co-Dependancy." Trying to help, rescue, or fix someone who is dependent on some sort of out-of-balance behavior. All my actions become based on his behavior. .
I have yet to hear from him "I lose track of time and I don;t know why." or 'I forgot about going to church, and I am really sorry.' or 'I understand how all my stuff all over the place is frustrating to you.' or 'I appreciate what you do with our finances, and I want to learn how to follow a budget.' or 'Can you help me organize my barn?.'
Thus, I do need to find out how to remove myself from this madness. I want support in getting this college degree. I want shared responsibility. I want love for who I am. I want to be out from this burden of financial debt. I want to sleep in peace, and wake up in peace.
Liz
I don't like the concept of
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
I don't like the concept of codependency. It suggests that each person is equally dependent on the other or on things they're getting from the relationship. Trying to keep a boat afloat instead of jumping in the water to swim away is not codependency; it's a choice a person makes because it seems to be the one that will more likely lead to survival.
It's a Little Different Than That...
Submitted by kellyj on
It's more of a psychological trap than one of circumstance like you're describing Rosered. A choice to survive may be the best option like you said logistically. Co-dependence is driven by other factors like fear and insecurity....and usually you are only aware that something isn't right ....but no one would ever choose to be that way. It's definitely an imbalance and a maladaptive internal response rather than a healthy adaptation to the same kind of stressor where you make conscious choices.
That's my personal description in my own words but I think it's close enough.
J
There are not assigned time limits to these sort of things
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
Co-dependence is driven by other factors like fear and insecurity....and usually you are only aware that something isn't right ....but no one would ever choose to be that way. It's definitely an imbalance and a maladaptive internal response rather than a healthy adaptation to the same kind of stressor where you make conscious choices.
J,
I took some time to think about this statement you made.
I do make my own personal choices. They are cheered or poo-pooed upon as others in my life see fit.
25 years is a long time to invest in anything. After 25 years, it is time to re-evaluate, and re-assess, and decide if it is working. My marriage is not, at least not by what would cause me to want to work harder. I have spent 5 intense years thinking "Liz, I CANNOT face the world and step away from 25 years of marriage. You CAN do this. You cannot give up on that man. He is trying. Right? Right?? Right????"
So, there is where the ideal of co-dependency entered for me. I must-not, can-not, will-not, 'hurt him' by saying "This is not good enough." As his whole world is based on the fear of not being good enough. And I will be "just like his father."
Oiy. Oiy. Oiy vey. The pain of it all.
Being always in debt is just awful.
Being always at a place of picking up after another if I desire a tidy living space, is defeating.
Being at a place of insecurity by his manipulative words is embarrassing for me.
Sorry, but he is not nice.
He still tries to control with anger. I do not change my mind-set - but I DO back away from it.
Is it me? Nope. What if it is me? Nope. Am I making a mistake? Nope. Am I selfish? Nope.
Sigh.
So-o-o, getting out and away from that place of being im-mobilized by the fear of being his self-fulfilling prophesy.
Lord help.
I can see clearly the situation at hand, but the path to freedom is a tad foggy.
10/13 we hit the 30 years of marriage date. I got no feeling of celebration. At all.
Liz
Liz
Submitted by kellyj on
As was reading your post I just realized another way to describe co-dependence. co-dependence would be where your choice is dictated or determined by someone else...how they feel or what they want....and you choose to make those choices even though the choice that you actually want or know you want is different. that's what I was trying to describe in betraying yourself. Your pressured or coerced to make a choice that you would not make on your own out of fear or insecurity. Really it's your fear or insecurity that's making the choice for you but it is dependent on someone else.
So if you make the choice and you can live with it.....(acceptance)....then it's not co-dependence. Especially if your choosing what you want and the other person doesn't like it.
J
Simplest definition ever
Submitted by Standing on
J, you have cleared away all the shadows for me, at least, surrounding a concept that's had such a negative stigma attached to it. This isn't self sacrifice, it really is a betrayal, as you said. How many times i have not spoken my heart or simply said "no", because i did not think i could endure the other person's displeasure. And each time, a bit more of self is erased.
I Know Standing
Submitted by kellyj on
Co-dependence is a slippery concept to grasp especially when your the one being affected by it. It really is like a spider's web....it's sticky and clinging and you feel trapped by it and it stretches out in all directions. You may not be the spider in this scenario...meaning the builder or manipulator of the web or trap......but in each case you voluntarily chose to step into it without really seeing that you did. It's disguised by things like duty, responsibility, honor and love.....your own attachment to these ideals get used against you by shame, guilt and insecurity that's projected onto you by someone else either now or in the past. It's part of those feelings where you feel trapped by your own emotions...controlled, imprisoned,manipulated, or used. You feel like your giving something of yourself away but feel empty because of it.......and it's a self perpetuating circle with no outlet or escape from that empty hollow feeling.
I might stand to be corrected here because I'm going off of memory but.......I think it has to do with the shadow of emotions...... Jungian Archetypes? the concept that there is a light side to human behavior and emotion but behind each one ( as if you shown a light on an object) it casts a shadow. Shadow doesn't necessarily refer to evil like in horror movies but more like I just said.....the blocking or hiding of the light being shown on an object and the shadow behind each one. But in this concept there is potential for corruption, perversion and I guess you'd have to include evil into it as a concept.
I like to just think of it as the absence of light....but if you think about it in reference to the usage of the term "light" in Christianity you all of a sudden start pulling together all the references in the English language to dark and light and their common usages including of course.....horror films ghost, vampires, etc....all lurking or hiding in the shadows or in the dark.
I find this all very fascinating and interesting to think about ( especially for me needing images to connect understanding.....being so visual in connection to my ADHD) but the bottom line here conceptually is that co-dependence is somewhat invisible or hidden but you know it there by how it feels. That's the part that doesn't "feel" right even though it is difficult to explain or see.
Another way to think about it is that it operates in your subconscious and that's what's dictating your conscious thoughts.
That's what I was trying to say to Rosered....in her description she was making conscious decisions and choices and weighing them against circumstance of reality.
But here's the kicker.....who's reality are you working from? Your's or someone else? Better make sure of that before you say it's yours
If it's your's and you aren't betraying yourself and your ideals........even within acceptance of something you don't want or would not necessarily choose.....there won't be any hollow feelings of being trapped by your choices and it won't feel like you are giving yourself away within those choices. You should feel whole and free and your emotions should feel clean instead of dirty.
You also won't feel like a victim that's the big indicator because you aren't being one. That's the problem with victim mentality....the person who suffers from it believes that someone else is always to blame and is the cause of all their suffering but in reality.....they are playing both parts of being the villain/victim all on their own.
That's why I mentioned in passing of things "reeking of co-dependence"......victims, blaming, guilt, shame, projection, duty, roles, not taking responsibility.......you can't see the co-dedepence but you can smell it , feel it and hear it in the terms people use ( and yourself more importantly! ) It's stinky, sticky and yucky! ugh! Like....get this shit off of me! Makes me want to take a shower just thinking about it. lol
You know it's there and you know that it doesn't feel good....that much you know for sure. It keeps you feeling insecure and helpless and breeds depression.
That's why I said to Rosered that no one would ever choose to be co-dependent as she was referring to it.
J
The Web
Submitted by Standing on
Great description, J. It truly has felt to me like being enveloped in those sticky filaments, like when you walk through even some single strands outdoors, strung between the trees, and find it impossible to shake them off.
I see how I trapped myself, and I'm looking now at the webs I have spun myself. I see how it works both ways. I would do things that I saw as good, loyal, honorable.. expecting to receive similar in return. But that's not entrapment, is it? I mean, if my husband feels himself trapped by the duties and responsibilities of adulthood, that's not on me.
I keep thinking of how he began our relationship with glorious talk of his hallowed grandmother, the all-giving epitome of unconditional love. He told me that I reminded him of her. Ugh. He saw all of this in me and made hay.
Clearly, this is going to be a very disjointed post, as my thoughts keep bouncing back to him while I try to consider my Own actions and motives.
You wrote:
It's disguised by things like duty, responsibility, honor and love.....your own attachment to these ideals get used against you by shame, guilt and insecurity that's projected onto you by someone else either now or in the past. It's part of those feelings where you feel trapped by your own emotions...controlled, imprisoned,manipulated, or used. You feel like your giving something of yourself away but feel empty because of it.......and it's a self perpetuating circle with no outlet or escape from that empty hollow feeling.
Like a one-car accident. I was going to find a utility pole somewhere, into which to crash. Just happened to be my add/narcissistic husband. I really was my own worst enemy and maybe still am, because now I am feeling guilty that he (seemingly suddenly) has this reforming codependent flailing around declaring "No More!" And he is clueless?
I've felt guilty that, as Moose wrote his wife told him - I have no feelings in my heart toward my husband. And there's nothing he can do to change that, because the root problem as I see it is an utter lack of integrity on his part. Integrity can't be developed with rapid-grow, it's a slow and agonizing process and one for which I do not believe he has the patience or drive, because it is not immediately rewarding. I don't even feel that I can tell him any of these things, because of the longgg pattern of his abusive responses to any of my attempts to voice the truth as I see it. If it's not the narcissism deflecting it, then the add is twisting/mishearing/forgetting it. I cannot condense all this into sound bytes that he will be able to digest. This makes me feel guilty, too, as though I SHOULD be able to convey this stuff to him, which makes no sense at all, since I have never succeeded in communicating much of anything to him, unless it's positive affirmation. ACK! So I add that onto my back and carry it around, too. And lookee there, I am talking about him again. Or am I?
I expected to be treated well because I am a "good person". Simple minded, is more like it. Ignorant. And not good, only wrapped up in ideals of honor, duty, and responsibility. Now I set boundaries and he is amazed. Where'd those come from? No fair! When I responded to some of his recent questions with "None of your business", he was shocked and appalled, although he does the same thing while Pretending to be straightforward and hiding large chunks of the truth. The only way to fit in with him is to play his game and I refuse. Man, I am all over the place with this, sorry.
Bottom line - I have let him define me. In fact, I sought for him to define me, because I did not know how to define myself, other than through work and service to others. All this talk about him and I am the empty one. I read that when you forget who you are, you should return to the time when you knew yourself and start from there. When was that, exactly? I have spent my life trying to be someone else's right-hand.
I am codependent.
Standing, Liz, C ur Self, Rosered Thank You
Submitted by kellyj on
and specifically you Standing in context to our discussions. You may not know it but you have helped make some final conclusions to the reason I showed up here in this forum in the first place which had to specifically with anger and losing my temper.
I wouldn't put myself in the "problematic and pervasive anger" category but specifically with my wife because she seemed to have an uncanny ability to target my buttons ( better than most people I know) and it appeared in my relationship with her even more so than in many of my past relationships. This was more than a little troubling to me and I really had no exact answer to it's cause until more recently. I realized there really was a missing piece to this puzzle especially because it appeared so specifically to her and no one else. ( including my ex wife of over 12 years)???????
So here I've been looking for clues and I've now come to the end of the road I think. I had a part of the picture when I last was here but I came back to get the last missing piece which arrived to me in my posts with you and the others I mentioned.
And.....I thought it was worth sharing my discovery since it pertains so much to you and your history/current situation. No surprises there!
And right to the punch line......has to do with the betrayal aspect that we've been talking about in connection to co-dependency.
The difference between what I've heard with you and myself has to do with somewhat of the opposite. While it sounds more like you adopted and accepted into your situation with your mother being an N....and being subject to it more....in references to being shy which I too was very shy and rather well behaved as a child ( and didn't talk all that much including stammering at times). I silently and at times, overtly fought against it without knowing the reasons why? and removed myself from the source (both good and bad) which limited it's impact on me thank god....not without some consequences however, but still finding some healthy outlets at the same time.
Having said that and certainly without realizing the net effect of this.....I've always had a high sensitively to people who are N and are co-dependent which played out both as an attraction and a repulsion. When I say repulsion I'm talking about the fight within and the anger that emanates from it.
Simply put.......that fight against it drove me to separate myself from it ( very healthy )....on the other hand, my sensitivity ( or radar )and my somewhat naivety to it found myself reacting with an overwhelming response when I felt myself being pulled into it by others ( not so healthy)
I discovered through all of this (plus knowing and meeting my wife's family)...that despite her constant quest to rid herself of her patterns from the past...just like anyone else...has an engrained and somewhat persistent pattern response operating ( quite unconsciously ) under the same rules of a NPD/co-dependent victim. I think it comes from simply not knowing or having any other operating system to go by and therefore defaults to it quite often and the results set me off in untold ways.
My aversion to it is so strong at times that I've simply lost my temper to it when I become too saturated. That's why I believe it only has shown up with her specifically.
But because I love her and she is truly and has amazing genuine qualities that I admire so much ( and trust in too ) she has also been a model for me in these same qualities that I've come to learn are way more important than many things that most of us take for granted in relationships. I think she just doesn't believe in them ( or herself enough) to trust that they are so valuable.
But since I do....I know over time she is starting to believe it too. In the mean time....this pattern of pursuit and anger that Melissa described was truly killing our marriage and between the two of us.....I knew I had to be the one to break the cycle.
This is why I came here...to find a way to do it and I think now I have. I just needed to see it to understand it because the source ( or the door to my anger) needed to shut once and for all since it's been there for a long long time.
That's why it was so hard to find. I really am quite happy and low key in general. Her Mr Jeckle was calling my Hyde out in a big way and it was certainly one way that I was betraying everything that I believe about myself.
but what I discovered more importantly is it had nothing to do with her Mr Jeckle. My anger was all about my own resistance to it...that was the source I was looking for. It wasn't the feeling that she was betraying me ( or being betrayed by my parents or family situation which at the time..... it really was a form of betrayal and child abuse..... this is a fact) This is all I could see because it was real and most definitely an easy one to identify. And even though I did many things throughout my life to maintain myself and keep myself whole in most ways...the last door I hope that still remained undiscovered was the betrayal of myself hiding behind the overt betrayal from the outside.
This is really what it was all about...my temper and anger to my wife. Being betrayed and therefor betraying myself and going against what I believe and hold of value personally.
That truly is what I was responding to when my wife hit those buttons and the temper that ensued out the resistance to feeling being pulled back into something that I worked so hard to keep myself free of.
That's how I betrayed myself and why I was angry (really at myself not her ) which only repeated the cycle until the next time.
i haven't blown up at her recently except once which brought me straight back here to get the last missing piece in hopes that now I can see and recognize it.....i will stop completely. I only hurt myself every time it happens and I'm committed now to never doing it again even once.
I grant myself a lot of slack with failing in my ADHD parts...I kind of expect it to a point. I also expect her reaction to me when this happens. I've never had a problem with getting angry in that which is also why it was so wierd or out in left field to suddenly react to her in these somewhat disjointed instance that didn't seem to have anything to do with ADHD or for that matter....any relationship to something that I would normally even get upset over????
Now I see it......it's a reaction to her pattern and my resistance or fight against the feeling of being sucked into something much like you are discovering now for yourself. In ways you've not been able to see maybe until just now?
That's also why I warned about getting angry yourself but I also now realize with you (from the sound of it) you had a differently relationship to a very similar pattern that we both shared in growing up and now with your spouse.
and to fill in the blanks a little more for you to see as well.....my ex wife had a real problem with some N behaviors much like C ur Self's wife sounds and this just simply did not work for me. She didn't trip my buttons so much as made me see the endless and somewhat hopeless chance that she would ever stop doing what she did which only brought back bad memories and that bad Ju Ju/ De ja Vue feeling once again.......that feeling that it was never going to stop. Ultimately causing me to do what I did in my past by simply getting away from it...for good!
I commend and admire C ur Self for a faith and conviction that I could never find in myself. He's been an inspiration and a model for me in personal fortitude and is a better man than me in an area I could use more of.
That is not the case with my wife now as much as I feared at times that it was. I now see her and see where her issues stem from and the parts that hit any buttons now......I accept the same as she needs to accept my ADHD which she has shown amazing tolerance in the face of having some real issues with impatience and intolerance to me being messy. I'm working full time to change that as well as a response to her...this time in appreciation not anger.
So there you go!
And now...in keeping with my promise to myself and working on my ADHD....I need to turn my focus back to that since I think I've got enough ammo to knock the one mystery out of the equation on my part concerning anger. We also continue to see my therapist who is very good at keeping me on track when I take my eye off the ball!
I just wanted to thank you and the rest of the people here in this forum for being a part of my progress and will say I hope I don't need to return here unless I fall down again. If not...I still may come back later to see how y'all are doing.
God Bless and good luck to you sincerely,
J
The Last Door
Submitted by Standing on
J, I am sad for me, for us, and very glad for you! I will seriously and sincerely miss your input. You have connected more dots for me than I could have imagined possible, and in record time. You've spoken my language... well, most of the time :)
I totally understand. Recently, heard something that really struck me - - 95% of human behavior is driven by the subconscious. So there may be other doors... but I have NO doubt that you will bring them to light :)
Once again, you are 100% spot on when you write: Now I see it......it's a reaction to her pattern and my resistance or fight against the feeling of being sucked into something much like you are discovering now for yourself. In ways you've not been able to see maybe until just now?
Bingo. But my way of fighting was to shut down. If I knew a way to express this to my husband, I would. Maybe I will quote you! haha
NOW, in the midst of this separation, I am feeling the anger toward him from the accumulated misunderstanding and lack of appreciation on his part for What This Has Been Like for Me. It's not a consuming anger, by any means, and I know it's a waste of energy, so I won't nurse it, and yet - - - how to process it through?! By going back through the door, I guess. Need to work that out.
Which is where this part about your ex comes in for me:
She didn't trip my buttons so much as made me see the endless and somewhat hopeless chance that she would ever stop doing what she did which only brought back bad memories and that bad Ju Ju/ De ja Vue feeling once again.......that feeling that it was never going to stop.
Another direct hit. You about sunk my battleship. MY common sense, my past experience, and every bit of worldly wisdom in my head says - it never will stop. And yet - throughout the past 10 years, I've been on the other side of an invisible door, so what do I know? This is where I'll return to the wisdom of c ur self and his Source, and humble myself, and watch for direction. And words. Not my words, other words.
Maybe once I'm fully through that door, Someone will shine more brightly in me. We shall see... from a safe distance ;)
the last door I hope that still remained undiscovered was the betrayal of myself hiding behind the overt betrayal from the outside
I hope so, too. My eyebrows always relax when I read something true... and they're floating now haha.
Happy trails, J!!
Standing, Liz.....I'm Compelled or is it Impulsive? ha ha
Submitted by kellyj on
to re-return to say something important before I stop reading here for a while. And yes...thanks for responding since I'm sort of invested with you guys. Iied a little about not coming back completely only that I know myself well enough to sneak a peak now and then to see how you're doing even if I don't respond. think of me as your guardian angel waiting in the wings. ha ha. but it I don't stop writing I'll never stop!lol
So there may be other doors. I already know there are so I shouldn't commit to anything I already know the answer to. Hopefully they are minor problem ones.
You've spoken my language... well, most of the time :) yeah I know...thanks Mom for pointing it out....hopefully no soap and water this time. ha ha
It's not a consuming anger, by any means, and I know it's a waste of energy, so I won't nurse it, and yet - - - how to process it through? Don't worry, it will catch hold of you from time to time but it will go away soon enough. You'll work through it.
Bingo. But my way of fighting was to shut down. If I knew a way to express this to my husband, I would. Maybe I will quote you! haha
Forget about your hubby......here's the back door to freedom and escape from co-dependence. This is the equivalent to me fighting.....with you it's shutting down. That's your betrayal point right there. Some where through that door lies the magic key and behind it I'll bet you find the same one I found for myself.
You'll know that day when it comes because nothing your husband says or does will have any effect on you at all. You will not even lift an eyebrow and there will be no emotion good bad or other wise. Neither good or bad. That's how you'll know when you've found it and any trace of co-dependence will a forgotten memory.
Are you hearing this Liz? The day you no longer need this site as an outlet for all that anxiety and stress you're suffering from in connection to your husband is the day when you won't feel a thing no matter what he does. That's the ticket!
Negatively I might add. Don't lose your ability to Love at the same time....that's the goal!
Even if he's standing in the same room with you!
I'm no expert but I think I'm right on this one. Hopefully for your sake I am!
Good Luck and God Speed.
J
Amazing revelations. . . . .
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
It's not a consuming anger, by any means, and I know it's a waste of energy, so I won't nurse it, and yet - - - how to process it through.
When I found this site close to 4 years ago, I WAS consumed by anger. Anger directed at my spouse's denial.
I have posted here A LOT, to share my inner struggles and aggravation, while at the same time searching for wisdom. I need time to process information. I usually refer to it as 'percolating' over things I've heard.
Me, I shall not ever choose to forget about my spouse. I will love him, and hope there is a roadway to refueling a broken down marriage.
You'll know that day when it comes because nothing your husband says or does will have any effect on you at all. This day I hope will never come into existence. I do not want to eradicate him from my life. I want to discern what is mine and what is his, what I can help, what I must keep my nose out of, what I can expect, and what will be impossible to achieve.
Are you hearing this Liz? The day you no longer need this site as an outlet for all that anxiety and stress you're suffering from in connection to your husband is the day when you won't feel a thing no matter what he does. That's the ticket!
No, I really don't believe this to be the truth I strive to find. He matters. He is a Fine Fellow and a Child of the King. I will hope I can apply the 12 Step ideal to my being here. Step 12. Having had a spiritual experience as the result of this course of action, I will try to carry this message to others, especially others who were where I once was, and to practice these principles in all my affairs.
Well, I learned - much to my amazement that jjamieson - - is a wife. LOL. All this time of commenting back and forth, and I though J was a male. I find that totally amazing!!! How I did not catch that in the recent posts, I'll never know.
For me, right now, today, I believe I am working my way out of my marriage. That is where my focus is at the current time. Untangling our finances, attending college, working on the P2P course in CHADD, working on the Writing Children's Books course that I have been attending online, working on quilts, and enjoying life. And loving my spouse in all his anger and turmoil. I hope he finds his way out. Could be he will find his way back to me. I will no longer scramble to 'make' that happen.
I am learning a lot. And I know there is a lot more to learn.
I choose to use the site as an outlet. I DO NOT want to have the appearance of trashing my spouse to my friends and family. Very few have been taken into my confidence. It is tough to find the balance between always smoothing out the emotional upheavals I perceived,
I have learned that - a lot of the stuff I took responsibility for doing, was actually Liz becoming a parent to her spouse. So, I work on letting that Parent/Child thing die off into oblivion.
I remember your story from
Submitted by jackrungh on
I remember your story from scanning these forums intensely a bit over a year ago and I have to say it leaves me so conflicted.
All at once it forces me to respect your resolve, shakes my faith in a truly happy ending, implores me to suggest that you leave, and terrifies me at considering how deep I could delve. I am (**in this moment** scary thought: perhaps not five minutes from now) under no illusion that my powers of delusion are any weaker than are your husband's.
Despite an extreme aversion to dishonest non-monogamy, I think it would all be more acceptable to process for me if you got some fling. A little boy toy on the side for Exhausted as a consolation prize. I guess that's like feeling that a monk should win the lottery. Something they specifically, and with very principled intent, have disavowed.
Keep doing what you are doing.
Food for thought
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
jackrungh,
shakes my faith in a truly happy ending
I have come to learn that a truly happy ending is not a Disney portrayed "Happily ever after" version, with the happy couple riding off into the sunset in the back of a magical pumpkin coach.
My story is a work-in-progress. The beginning started out with Prince Charming galloping up on his white steed to save the Damsel in Distress. Now some 30 odd years later, those 2 prime characters have developed/morphed into something much greater, leaving behind the mere shadow of their former beings. The happy ending for my story will be 2 people, happy and still friends - maybe still married or maybe each in their own place - each having total respect for the other's choices, strengths, gifts and talents. What I know in my heart-of-heart is my spouse is trying. And my spouse is hurting because his way of being in charge of me and our relationship was to get angry - and stay that way until the tide changed. The tide no longer changes. The intensity of his frustration is clear to me. He is drowning. The way I went about fixing it just made a big mess of things.
I read a lot on the whole Parent/Child dynamic. I cannot fully grasp the reality of it in my own marriage. While I did display anger and frustration as the lack of support as I picked up more and more of the responsibilities on my own shoulders, I did not have the satisfaction that the dynamic should have garnered me - as I had no voice, no place for respect of my opinions, and had no control over any part of my marriage. I was lead around by my spouses anger. Everything was his way or the highway. No room for my hopes and dreams and opinions here - and the reality I am discovering is: that behavior is probably not an ADHD specification, but something else. .
implores me to suggest that you leave,
At the current time, my brain believes that is what will happen. I have yet to find the way to be confident in working through issues along side my spouse, I get squished into the role of "Liz has problems and I can't find happiness until she is all better." With out the proper support and skills to bark back at his accusations and anger, he is an opponent I cannot come up against while feeling I am making any headway to a better way of living.
Despite an extreme aversion to dishonest non-monogamy, I think it would all be more acceptable to process for me if you got some fling. A little boy toy on the side for Exhausted as a consolation prize.
LOL! The temptations may have crossed my mind, but that is all it ever may have been. Dreaming the grass is greener on the other side of the fence is a trap. If I can't take care of the grass on my own side of the fence, the grass on the other side of the fence will also die when I get over there. No. Not for me. There is deep, profound value in my marriage vows. And also, for today, if I have to choice to be out of this relationship, I YEARN and LONG for a place where the kitchen looks the same when I wake up as it did when I went to bed, no one else to pick up after, and a cute little tidy and cozy place to be.
I have only disavowed myself the enjoyment of another person while I am inside the boundaries of my own marriage. That is the road I have chosen. it is not for everyone.
In my own relationship with God, He does not let me get away with anything :)
Liz
What I Suffer From Mostly Liz
Submitted by kellyj on
Knowing what I want to say and not knowing how to say it. I think I could've use the term "inner peace" and that would have been the same thing.....it always comes to me a day later when the person is no longer standing in front of me.lol
One advantage of this kind of communication I guess:)
J
PS....wife?.....sometimes I wonder but I also know why that is....to be sure last time I checked, I pee standing up. lol
I came back for a reason....I forgot to do something....Having had a spiritual experience as the result of this course of action, I will try to carry this message to others, especially others who were where I once was. I'll make a new post and you'll understand.....mine wasn't from a 12 step program though.
Insanity comes in spurts
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
J,
Well, you're not gone :)
My bad. My bad. My bad! LOL. HOW I got my brain so wrapped around reading these posts and concluded through some brain fart that the person who was writing was female rather than male - - -Oiy Vey! Losing it. I don't see that now. Forgive my error.
I could pee standing up. too. The results would not be very soggy shoes and socks!! LOL!
Liz
You're so Right....I've Seen It Done! lol
Submitted by kellyj on
I do have a common girls first name though if that counts for anything. ha ha
Back only to share the results of my journey here.....my focus and mission is accomplished at least for now. Thanks
J
I've always loved your desire for self-awareness.
Submitted by c ur self on
And your uniqueness and ability to get on most anyones level...It's obvious to me that you are very intelligent...but what has most impressed me is your willingness to pour your self out to encourage and uplift others...That's my desire to, encourage and love others...
Blessing dear friend...
Thank You
Submitted by kellyj on
You've been an inspiration.
Peace
See, not blaming
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
J,
I understand this so well.
I really do not want to BLAME my spouse for anything. Two people make a marriage. I add my part. He adds his part.
Right now - I do not want to be adding my part to his. Nor do I want him adding his part to mine.
Leaves me in an interesting place.
How does a person not blame, yet they know they see what the other is denying?
So I nudged. And prodded. And tried.
Is this really it? The bottom of it all? He can't see. so, that is it?
Probably. Now, it is Liz who does not want to see.
Liz
Responsibility, not blame
Submitted by Standing on
This is the question that my husband raises from time to time: "Is it all me, then?"
Till now, I've not had an answer that did not send me scurrying back to the drawing board to try harder. This morning, my mind wrapped itself around words to express my response. I don't know whether he could ever glean any meaning from it, beyond abject criticism, but here's the gist of it:
Of course it is not ALL you. I have struggled with issues and often not responded well to you. I am sorry for the hurt you have endured due to my many lacks and flaws. (I still choke on this part) However, I do not have add combined with a personality disorder. Those are the issues for which the psychologist recommended you to individual counseling. The trap in which I have remained stuck is made of codependence, fear, and anxiety. I have been consistently working on those, through 8 months of counseling, and you, yourself, have commented on some of my improvements.
This is where my words fall away, because what comes next in my mind is the sad truth that he does not stick with any pledge of improvement for more than a very short while, and repeatedly gives evidence of a startling lack of integrity. In other words, he does not do what he says and his actions do not prove the veracity of the claims he makes about himself. It was not all him at the inception, but at this point? Yeah, it pretty much is.
"It was not all him at the
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
"It was not all him at the inception, but at this point? Yeah, it pretty much is."
An ideal summing up. Thank you, Standing, although I'm sorry you have to be a member of this club, too.
Acceptance is not happenin'
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
J,
Yep.
I am NOT living well with my choices.
Liz
Go From Wanting to Believing.....
Submitted by kellyj on
I always hesitate saying that ( we) deserve anything. That's sounds too close to entitlement. But I think believing that you are as worthy as the next person in being happy is safe to say......because you are. No better or worse but certainly worthy. If you don't believe it deep down then that's a problem. Maybe you've been hearing that you're not too long?....and then started to believe that. Flush that business down the toilet where it belongs!
Believe it and the rest will follow.
J
Where I am, but do not want to be
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
"....second guessing yourself and unable to think straight or make decisions because it feels like the ground your standing on is moving and nothing seems to make any sense. I know that feeling."
Liz