Calming Stress Relievers

Welcome verytiredwife

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Tue, 11/22/2016 - 17:38

My increased stress and frustration, as a non ADHD spouse, is, and looks like it will always have to be something that I work on. Some things that I wasnt doing, or as much, before I married into living with my husband's ADHD challenges

--Accept that my daily life will never be like other relations I've had in which there was no ADHD present. I have to find out how to live well with this man with ADHD, not expect that he can or would ever wish to act like people without ADHD.

--Find out...for m, and my wellbeing, what his ADHD is and isnt. For as long as I was in ignorance of what he did and how he did it that was a direct product of his neurology, I was very, very upset, unable to tell whether he was treating me well...in his way, not mine...or neutrally, in hs way, or treating me badly. How I found good ways of my own wellbeing and care of him depended very, very much on learning and observing what of what he did to me and to our common life due to ADHD lability, inner focus, lack of practice in social situations, stress, etc, and what of it was neutral (regardless of its impact on me) and what of it was intentional mistreatment. My interactions with him have to differ, depending on which of these originated his actions. He generally has been only partially able to explain these differences to me. So it's been up to me to learn, and develop repertoires for each kind of situation

--Get good sleep. Whatever it takes to get it. Overall, this is a more stressful kind of relation. So I need to counterbalance that with extra care for me. Get the best exercise you can get. Feed your soul

--the happier I am and more at ease, the more it seems to help him climb down a little from his own stress. But I'm not living with someone who dumps the responsibility for his self discipline and his own feelings on me

--when my husband is upset, in any way, he's often very upset. It's that ADHD lability. Those are not the times for me to ask him questions, disagree, or show anger. It sets him off more. This is very consistent. So I've learned to wait, and return to an issue the next day, if I need to be heard or am setting a boundary for myself...and I have. In the heat of him being flooded by that ADHD emotion, is not the time for him to hear an explanation, or deal with a discussion of something I want him to do or not do. I come back to it later. It's laborious, but that's the way it is. I find that explaining myself and my needs generally to be ineffective over the short haul with him. For one thing his listening ability in conversations about relationships is very poor, so he misses content of what I say... Instead it works better to ask him to do something or not do something, just one thing and be firm about it and it usually needs quite a few repetitions.

Have boundaries. Dont try to live without them. You need healthy, functioning ones. It is all right to have them without them, stress is higher.

If I've not done or intended what he criticizes in me, I say only once, this is what I did, not what you say. And I dont discuss it further. I dont need to prove myself to him. If he wants to talk about his need, his fear or what he thought, that's another thing. But I refuse to foster a fight between us by trying to defend myself, if I've done dothing wrong. Until I stopped defending myself, these interactions were very painful because he was very stubborn in his accusation, locked in like a bulldog, no matter how fanciful the claim, and would escalateMy not defending myself, nor participating in hearing his mistaken accusations shortened these interactions considerably. This seems to have helped him, as well as me.

generally, I try hard not to have a disagreement or fight if I have no inclination to have one, which is usually the case.. I've occasionally wondered whether my husband were inciting an argument in order to deal with his own stress...use it to discharge some stress that has nothing to domwith me, but I wont do that role with him. i'm nobody's social punching bag. In those situations, I let him be. They're rare.

Its enough for me to be my own moral judge, and to seek to rectify what I do that's selfish, second rate or whatever. He's responsible for his moral life and the consequences of his intentional actions. I dont make excuses for him to other people or explain him to other people, Generally, getting out of anything over-caretaking of him has lowered my stress. What he needs from me is somewhat different from what non ADHD people need from me, so I've had to let go kinds of help I was giving him that didnt fit his needs. He definitely doesnt need a cop, or a mother.

He often doesnt notice my boundaries. I have to be patient with that. Since they're my boundaries, it's my job, not his, to insure that they are functioning. He has good will in these matters, but he doesnt notice or remember things if they are not related to him or the center of his focus, very easily. So I have to patiently and quietly insist on my needs

Speak explicitly All the time. That's different from explaining things in detail

Dont let the work, home and psychic overload absorb so much of your time that all you're doing is serving it. You matter too

Right now, in the situation you describe, carve out some nourishment for you, that you're not getting, already.

If any that I've written doesnt fit you or your situation, please do throw it away. Stress is a very big deal. Wishing younwell

Great List

Submitted by DependentOrigination on Tue, 11/22/2016 - 21:11

Seriously great list NON.

I understand the harshness and the bitterness. If filled up a lot of my heart, my energy and my life, for the last three years. I have only started beating it, in the last 3 to 6 months, and progress has been slow. But I have noticed some improvements. In him, and in me. Although, last night he disappeared off the face of the planet again even though he was supposed to meet me for an activity. Fortunately I had also invited a friend along so I had a good time anyway.

My calming stress relievers are:

1. Self Care - doing something I want to do for myself, regardless of the cacophony of other people's needs. Lunch break, music, movie, good book, hot shower, weekend away, visit with friends. Sleep!!! Sleep has been so essential. Exercise has also been huge for me. I feel better when my body feels better. YOga, regularly, inn a beautiful space, with a teacher you love.

2. Space - when things get too intense, sometimes a break is what is needed. I have taken an hour off my relationship, a weekend, a week... to allow other things to take up more space in my brain. So that the problems aren't all encompassing of my neural network.

3. Boundaries - If I find myself stressed out or more invested in another person's problem than they are, the problem is me. As much as it sucks to have a husband that I can't share finances with and who will be working for the REST of his life, his finances have become his problem. As long as he is paying his half of the bills, I am good. If he isn't paying his half of the bills, then it would become my problem again, and well, I would have to find someone else to be married to. I find this is working well with my 17 year old daughter as well. Yes, I remind her to do her homework, yes, I make sure she has clothes to wear and food to eat. If she succeeds in the world, great. If she doesn't, it won't be because I haven't done my part as a parent. So if she fails sometimes, that's okay. My well being should not be invested in her success. Don't make your husbands problems your problems. Use that time and energy instead to make your world a little better everyday.

4. Find something you ❤️---- really, really love. That you find inspiring, that makes your life worth living, that makes you passionate. And find 30 minutes a day, to give to that thing... even if it means you have to buy your lunch, or your house isn't clean, or... in the end... it is your life. You have to fill it doing the things you love.

Have patience. I was in a bad, bad place for several years. I still get waves of those bad places on occasions, but I have yet to descend fully into the darkness again. Mourn what you need to mourn. Process what you need to process. It will be hard, it will take time, but have faith, you will get there. Progress for me, was measured in millimeters. Now in centimeters...

Love and neural networks

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Wed, 11/23/2016 - 08:46

Glad to read how you handle stress. About your #2, a smile and a thought. That taking an hour off...I'm in a kind of high hours per week, high stress, and for me high personal interface kind of work. I've been doing it for a long time, including some very rocky periods in my personal life. I read somewhere about scheduling appointments with yourself. What I did with that is announce I was going to a meeting, head out the door of the office building to my car and then do what I pleased for an hour or so and drive back to work. Go off grid some way. And then come back on. I'd use that car to get me to parks, to sit in the sun for an hour, roll back the seat and take a nap, go for a drive. And a few other kinds of things, but the car was my ship that got me to my meeting with myself and back. What I did was nobody's business for that hour or hour plus a little. Then I'd go back to work and people. I havent had the need for that particular kind of self care for awhile, although I do continue another old habit which I used living by myself all of those years of going out for a quick walk, from home if I need to burn off some tension or do a mental gearshift. I'm really happy to see my husband starting to do that for himself too, when he needs it

You said something that fascinated me, about actively putting something other than your problems in the mental space of your mind, so that your neural networks werent totally occupied with your problems. Very interesting to think about. Yes, we're mind-body ...I use the Christian descriptive list of spirit-soul-body-relationships often when I think about the interconnectivity of what we think, feel, live in our body and relate. Your remark about loading our own neural networks with our problems crowding everything else out seems to me to have pieces of wisdom in it. One, to me, is that of course our neural networks arent only in our head, but are affected by the whole of what we are doing. We can affect our mental space by things like yoga, creating or choosing to put the mind on something other than problems. No quick silver bullets to make problems go away, but yes it does help.

I married my husband during a really rough period in my life

Submitted by DependentOrigination on Wed, 11/23/2016 - 23:01

I started a new high stress career after finishing a masters degree in debt, got in some car accidents, had to move a few times, etc. etc. I think it really created the potential for the extreme unhealthiness that occurred with my relationship with my husband. I feel like I actually became addicted to him, because he was something good, exciting, and my whole being would light up when I was with him. It also allowed me to avoid the stress in my own personal life. I think my dopamine receptors went haywire. And because of the ADHD, the only time we spent time together was in his life. And mine, slowly, subtlety, day by day disappeared. And I was miserable. Because no matter how much of my life I gave to my husband, his ADD would still take him away from me. And all the coping strategies I had developed over the years, and all the good things about my life melted away, and he literally became the only thing that could make me happy.

My mind was unhealthy in a way I never experienced in my life. And one of big parts of my journey back to health has been not allowing my husband, and his ADD, occupy a huge part of my mind. There are so many things I love in this world, that should take up space in my mind. So when my mind tries to spin back into that negative cycle of feeling abandoned, I am actively trying to distract myself. Most of the time, it works. And my mind is playing less and less tricks on me.

Definitely no magic there, but the ability to experience magic and wonder in my life again has been the greatest gift of the last 6 months.

I have a very people intensive job as well. I really could have used some extreme me time in the last three years. I hope one day, health comes as natural as breathing for me as it used to. But I can live with what I have now, which is health, 85% of the time.

Balance

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Thu, 11/24/2016 - 05:14

I've been thinking about what you've written about deciding what is filling your mind, DependentOrigination. No big thoughts here, just thinking about what you've said about rebalancing what's in the mind. I used to describe my initial stunned state, unable to make sense of a lot that seemed to me to have shifted in the relation from how things were in the beginning as being off balance.

I've been musing your posts in this thread, DO. I hadnt quite articulated it in my mind this way before, but living with my husband who has ADHD does require finding a different balance than I've had. I've certainly thought about and done things that it seemed I could contribute to helping my husband with his life balance, which for usual ADHD issues, can, go out of whack, often in frustrating to him or household uproar type ways. And I've thought a lot and put effort into learning how to be in a balanced relation with him.... but DO, I hadnt quite grasped that I need to do a fuller effort on my own balance. The mind can get outnof balance, you're right. I've had the same thing you describe, that my mind became crowded to bursting with work, thought, reaction, puzzlement, study, feelings, about my husband. Too much him in my head. As you say. It is a question of a better balance. In balance with other parts of life means less stress.

I think you're very right that to do that, a person has to be active on his or her behalf. After your life difficulties you described, I get the impression from reading, that you're in a very big change project in yourself.

Soft smile to you, over the feeling abandoned. I think my husband and I are making a good start at a later in life marriage. He's really working at that. So am I. There's a lot of good between us. and I have a lot of reason to be on this site. I nearly put myself in the hospital with stress until I began to know enough about what the heck ADHD was...as lived. And with a husband who I love dearly and who loves me very much, yes DO, I've felt my own version of your feeling of abandonment. I think my husband had the one sentence description of it, talking about his own past life: "There's never been anyone there for me." He's right about his past life.

Well, he knows now that I am there for him. I have interludes myself though in which yes I do feel like I'm toiling along invisible to him. It feels lonely. I told him so, recently, and he was quite taken aback. Because he knows I know he loves me. He didnt want me to feel lonely. He didnt know what to do. He had trouble grasping that our balanced life had upped my workload so much that it was isolating me, and I dont think he notices himself not noticing. He doesnt stand out of himself enough to notice himself as an actor in social interactions, so he doesnt measure the time of his absorptions, and doesnt notice that he doesnt inquire about me. Yes one does feel whatever it is, let alone, overlooked, sometimes treated like an obstacle to whatever our partner is locked into.

Yes to what you've written applied to yourself, one cant reside in that loneliness, or in over focus on one's partner. There definitely is a kind of isolation in this relation I'm having with this adorable man. I'm glad you're with friends. I need some more of that, myself.

: ) 85% is darn good.

Out of Love

Submitted by DependentOrigination on Fri, 11/25/2016 - 01:29

I love this paragraph. For the first three years, every time I was misplaced by his ADD whirlwind, I told my husband about it. I didn't know it was ADD, so I kept trying to explain to him my feelings of hurt, loss, isolation, and abandonment. It was so confusing. Here is a man who insists he loves me, who insists I am a priority in his life, yet I would call him on my way out to a dinner we had planned, and he would already be eating dinner with someone else. And he wouldn't understand why I was upset, even if it happened over and over and over again. He would tell me to meet him at a coffee shop nearby where he was working, and in a couple of minutes, he would be over. And when he finally emerged from his ADD haze, several hours later, he would be shocked to find a furious wife at home because, not only had he not shown up at the coffee shop, he was home late from work, and his phone had been dead, and It had completely escaped his mind that I had been at the coffee shop at all. So I would try to explain it to him, and then he would just see the criticism. And become angry, and lose sight of the message, so I would try harder to explain it to him, and sometimes, after three or four hour long attempts over several days, he would understand. But more often, it just turned ugly. And I would lose my mind, and he would threaten to leave.

These days, out of love, I am trying not to burden him with my loss, my loneliness, my feelings of abandonment. Because if I am honest with myself, he does love me. A lot. It is just that the ADD wins sometimes. I am trying not to hold him accountable all the time for something that is very difficult for him to do.

I would like to find a healthy balance though. Where I can gently express my own loneliness without blaming him. Because I know my husband loves me. And I know that sometimes he sees how much his ADD hurts me. And that must be a very difficult thing to live with, without me rubbing it in his face.

I am not very good at it yet. My attempts have mostly been half hearted, or statements laden with double entendre. Well intentioned, but still getting my point across. Hopefully I will evolve into a less bitter person. At least the explaining has boiled down to one calm sentence, and I see the recognition in his eyes, because I take some of the responsibility of accepting that I have asked Him to be someone he is incapable of being. And then we move on, in love. So despite the fact that nothing has changed in him, we are both happier. Especially since I have handed back the problems of his that I don't want to be responsible for anymore, his schedule, his finances, and his dog (that he shares with his ex).

85% is pretty good. I am still aiming for the health that flowed through me like a light, effortless. I was born lucky.

Out of Synch or Out of Love ? D.O.

Submitted by kellyj on Fri, 11/25/2016 - 08:23

D.O. I want to share my own thoughts about what you said. This is not something that I just thought of in the moment....but something I have thinking about for a very long time. Pulling everything together now in one idea or concept that I think is really true in all of this and everything you said? Your question sparked my thoughts on this as to the why...and then the what? What you are asking is how? How do I do this? How do I express a healthy way....to find a healthy balance ( without blaming ) that you are lonely and feel abandoned and why is this so difficult for him to understand? What's the problem here and why is this so difficult to communicate? Is it not understanding...or is it something else or is it a little of both?

Answer: A little of both

What's the concept: Management of ADHD symptoms getting in the way of your relationship ie: mal-adaptive.... or even better (more often than not) looking at it in a more positive way...not understanding the impact of the current methods and strategies from a lifetime of adaptation and learning how to manage the symptoms ( without even knowing you have ADHD ) that have developed into routines and rituals that are designed to alleviate the effects that ADHD imposes on you ( the person who has it ) into these already established pattern in doing so...which impede or impact others ( the effect transferred now to others ) in a way that causes a problem or conflict with others trying to match or synch up to these somewhat unorthodox and maybe bizarre looking behaviors or rituals that by design...have one purpose or concept in mind. Again.....ADHD symptom management and all the logistics there are? Logistics of ADHD in the physical = sometimes irrational or somewhat unorthodox looking behaviors ( in doing so ) from someone looking at them from the outside? And then trying to synch up or match these behaviors or living style with your own and not being able to do so effectively?

So the problem is actually two problems?

a) The person with ADHD doesn't realize this or has any concept that this is happening and therefore.....cannot see this or realizes any of the things I just said.

b) Even if they are (partly ..or in part aware ) or somewhat aware of problem a)...they are still unaware of the scope , the degree or the amount of this ( the severity ) and all the things that fall under the effect it has on both them and others. Again...partial awareness which masks the severity in that what you think you know...is only part of it. There is still a total blind spot of unawareness of the severity of the impact...and the severity of the problem and therefore...the severity of the effect it has on you?

c) Without this awareness and without the means or ability to see this.....this denial ( if it is resistance to looking at it....or unwillingness to look at this more closely ) comes from...in effect, defending your territory or in other words....defending your ability to manage these symptoms ....AS IS. Since.....to suddenly be stripped of the ability to manage the symptoms....a person with ADHD would find themselves in a sense....up a creek, without a paddle. To suddenly try and synch up to the person without ADHD...in doing things ( their way or like everyone else ) they would suddenly be lost, and without any means for control ie: controlling or managing the ADHD symptoms themselves?

D.O. before and after I was diagnosed...and when I first went on medication ( Adderall )...I almost instantly noticed how much better I felt and how much easier ( in a general way ) I was able to do things where before...this was much more difficult? That's the part you should pay heed to and look at more closely I think? What is hard...is trying to: synch yourself up with other people and their routines and habits and....trying to manage the ADHD symptoms in general since ( from where I sit here )...the distraction itself, is the distraction the management aspect of this..imposed on you emotionally, physically and mentally c) All the above. If you picked yourself with a full bladder all the time and you always felt like you had to Pee? That could equate similarly of what that feels like and ...if you can imagine, this would be very distracting and make it difficult to concentrate? And if that's the case...you'd been constantly spending your time....looking for a bathroom (or something shiny ) to get your mind off this feeling and distract yourself from this discomfort you feel because of it? Absolutely true. Whether the person realizes this or not....since they had a full bladder their entire life....they don't realize the effect this has on them...or realize why they are constantly doing things to relieve this "pressure" they feel from inside which they are also not realizing fully...that everyone else ( who doesn't have this issue ) doesn't live with this constant internal pressure building inside them all the time...and don't have to spend so much waking thought and mental actively on symptom management...when there is no symptom in the first place ie: your bladder is not full all the time and you are not constantly trying to seek a bathroom or "REST ROOM"? And....spending so much time in the "REST ROOM"...once you find one? Piss or get off the pot....will ya??? Jeese!!!!

So even if you were to communicate all of this to your husband...it still doesn't solve the problem if you can picture it from this perspective?

So in essence....picture yourself with a full bladder to the point of distraction and all that built of pressure you are experiencing and this is your daily life from the second you wake up in the morning...until you go to bed at night? You can never go Pee...to relieve yourself..and this is your life. Everyday with that same feeling all the time?

Now picture your husband or anyone you know....coming to you and saying....."You know, this is a real problem for me. You spend so much time in the bathroom ( or rest room )...doing who knows what? I can only assume that means you don't want to be with me or spend that time with mel....and goes darn it.....I"M LONELY!!! And it makes me feel abandoned since you spend so much time....apparently?? Looking for rest rooms and then once you find one....you disappear completely...and only come out when you decide your ready and all I get it what little time and what is left of you...by the time you get done doing??? WHO KNOWS what the Hell you are doing and you will not talk to me...or explain this to me...ina way that I can understand? And when I try and talk to you about it.....you get upset or instantly angry and defensive and this makes me feel completely unloved, uncared, my needs unattended too...and left to deal with this all myself? Not only that...but I end up having to pick up the slack in some of things that are your reasonability that need to get done...so now I have to do this for both of us....while you are in the Rest Room ( dicking off perhaps...who knows ??? ) while I'm doing all of this...and trying to understand why you seemingly don't care or unwilling to compromise of give me any of your time and energy which is exactly what I am asking for? And you won;'t communicate this with me or tell me what is wrong? aor worse...just get upset and angry with me and blame it all on me when ever I try? Or even worse than that....you just get angry with me for no reason and I haven't done anything wrong or anything to warrant this especially due to the circumstances and the effect this is all having on me....and seemingly, you don't care of give a damn about me or my needs in service of your own?"

Now going a step further here and not using any of this as an excuse or a means to gather sympathy here since this is all about you now...your needs, and the things you aren't getting and the over effect this is having on you in a negative way right? Moving in with this train of thought in mind?

This isn't your problem. First off. You don't have this problem in terms of ( staying within the metaphor ) a bladder issue and the net effect of having to live with all this discomfort and irritablity that is caused from this. Along with the distraction...yaddity yaddity yaw???? Your problem is....tying to get this person you are with...to first off:

See the problem in the first place A) Step one. Get out of denial and out of defensive mode from not being able to see this and being overly protective of the ability to manage this embarrassing bladder issue they have trying to synch up or get in synch;.... with everyone else and trying to keep up, while at the time..... they have to pee all the time..and are constantly ( even secretively ) trying to look for rest rooms and ways to do this where everyone is not finding out of seeing this happen? And /or....they are completely unwarned that they are even doing this...and actively or defiantly thumbing there nose at you and telling you it's you...your the problem, this is just how I am and if you don't like it, then go shove it!!! And if you don't back off and leave me be.....I'm leaving or I will just go where I don't have to deal with someone like you who is always bugging me all the time!!

As one possibility or way of looking at this? The logistics and the mechanics of this...are very close to accurate even if this portrayal is of course...not about a bladder issue but what it feels like and the difficulties and how you might adopt this concept and applying it to you since you do have a bladder and you know what that is like....what is more important is the effect this would have on you with no ability to relieve yourself and empty your bladder when you need to and then go back to business or back to work..or back to doing anything...without this constant pressure and discomfort that you are experiencing seemingly all the time? And it comes and goes in waves but it's always there in one degree or another?

So when I went of medication...and I noticed how things were easier and felt better? Picture yourself now.....finally!!! Going into the bathroom and empting your bladder in a flood of relief....AAHHHHHHHHHHHH!! And now you feel like a new Man /Woman...and you are ready for anything since that wieght and pressure that was already there...is finally gone or relieved? Everything is so much easier...and you seem to have more time and focus to spend on other things including....your spouse family and friends. Your mind is freed up for other things and you finally realize....WOW??? That really sucked? I had not idea of that pressure and why I was always looking for a rest room all the time and spending so much time in there since now....I don't have to do it anymore!!! WHEW!!! What a relief!!!

Until your husband....gets to that place right there...the place where he has something to compare to...something that makes him feel better in that respect.....until he gets that relief and has that experience ( like getting a pair of glasses from being near sighted all your life and not realizing everything you were missing and not seeing )

Until that day happens.......telling him how lonely and hurt you are.....will not do much to fix the problem? It isn't your problem to begin with..and you don't have to deal with any of the problem he is having on his end.....but you are having to deal with the effect it has on him...and therefore...the effect it has on you....so in essence......a person like this...has "bigger fish to fry"..."more fires to put out"....more problems and things to worry and obsess over...in trying to find a way.....JUST TO BE OKAY.....in the first place? They don't realize any of this...and therefore, cannot see or realize why this is a problem for anyone else or....in turn....are put upon literally....since your problems...aren't my problems...and my problems are bigger than yours? With that kind of attitude involved?

That last statement...is actually true. Better said....there is truth in that statement and there is truth in everything I said? I'm not making any of this up or even trying to embellish on it? It realy really is....in reality.....very similar in "how it feels" for real or close enough.....that if you were to ONLY.....remember what it feels like to have a really full bladder...and now that effects your behavior and how distracting that is...until you finally find a bathroom to relieve yourself especially when it gets really bad? It might help you understand better what you are up against...and how you might approach....YOURSELF? Under the exact same circumstances?

So if you step back from this picture (or depiction ) I've just created....here's what I can honestly....and accurately say about this myself? I can't give you advise....or tell you how to do it? What I can...and I did....just give you....was an accurate picture and I think it's a really good picture myself if I can give myself some credit here in painting it for your and giving you a means to look at this picture..and then put yourself into it...on both sides...your's and his? I'd go as far as saying....if you took this picture and put it on your wall as a reference guide...it would be really useful in learning how to identify just what you are seeing and know what it is your seeing first off? It would also serve to provide a means to seperate yourself in this picture...from him in this picture ...no matter whay he says to tells you? In other words...he may be trying to describe or even explain this picture but he can;t see it? But if you are looking right at it...and are able to identify it for him....you could use that to help him see it (first priority ) and then help him understand what is happening on your end from the effect this picture has on you in that order. It has to be in that order first for obvious reasons to the picture itself? Coming at it from the other direction and making it about YOU first only....in an effort to fix this problem.....you can see why that won't work..if you use this picture to help you understand why? And once you know what your are seeing and why...and you are able to separate yourself and your problem....from him and his problem...you can speak to the problem...instead of him...which is exactly what you are saying? How not to blame? This is how not to blame...but to speak about each thing separately..and not try to combine too much of the picture all at once...and talk to these steps and issues separately first which will have the effect of syncing up mentally ( or getting on the same page together ) so then can discuss or talk about the physical effects ( the logistical aspects ) but still applying this picture and holding this picture in mind the entire time while you are doing this?

So...in respect for this picture I just created for you.....this picture represent your relationship together and you are BOTH...in the same picture at the same time....but are out of synch in the picture which is exactly what this picture is showing you? It a picture tells a thousand words....then this picture can be your guide to tell you how to do it...what order things need to happen..and the means and ways to get there which is exactly what you want? This picture is what will tell you how to do it ..and this picture will probably be the best advise as a means to use to get there if I did a good job of laying this out for you ( or drawing this picture for you? )

If I could....I would just draw it for you on a piece of paper...but without that ability...just describing it to you in words is the next best thing?

And using my wife here for example within this picture. She is like at square one in some respects...because the means she's adopted to resolve this bladder problem she has.....is to try and fit the world and her environment...to her and her bladder problem? That's the method she adopted and has chosen to deal with this and that in itself is a problem...in addition to the problem or picture since this is exactly...to the point.......the opposite way she should be doing it ( in my opinon )...and trying to fit herslef.....to the world and her enviroment...and doing things to fix the probelm using that aproach insteand? If you wer take away her ability to fix this problem that way....she comes comnpletely unglued and looses control and is literally with that paddle and is dead in the water until she can find better menas to fit her self to the picture....she is still trying to fit the picture...and everything in it....to her. That the problem......in this picture that I have found myself in while trying to do the exact same thing...but doing it that way instead? I'm trying as hard as I can to fit myself...to the world and everyone in it...while at the same time having this bladder issue...and my wife is trying to fit the world and everyone in it....to her....and refuse to even talk about doing anything differently because SHE KNOWS.

I know...what she know...but I can't tell her that? What she knows...is she has a bladder problem..and she has to pee all the time and it makes her uncomfortable. That's it. So trying to tell her anything she's doing that effects me is a waste of time and irrelevant because...she really doesn't;t care to hear about any problems she is causing me or anyone else....as long as she is uncomfortable with this annoying bladder that is constantly bugging the crap out of her...and she spends nearly every waking moments...trying to do something about it. So in essence.....my problems...are not her problems...and her problems are more important and much more immediate...as she thinks?

And my problem with her is knowing...exactly what her problem is...what it feels like....what I've done to compensate and correct this..anc know exactly the same thing she knows but she absolutely will not hear of that...or hear that I know actually more than she knows....because I can see the entire picture...and she can only see the part that I just said. And she refuses to believe me?

Refusing to believe me....is not my problem either. The picture is accurate..and so is the picture of the problem with her...with me..and the entire picture together. Until the day she decides to look at the picture and stand back and study it and then actually belief what she is seeing......absolutely nothing I say or do...will make one bit of difference and I am just wasting my time and energy in trying to force her look at something....she refuses to look at? A gigantic waste of time IMHO.

So...here is what I can say about that in my humble opinion again. People with ADHD...are not inherently selfish or self serving. They are nearly trying to manage a problem that is real and all the reasons why?

WHAT IS SELFISH....IS DENIAL....AND DEFENSIVENESS...AND REFUSING TO LOOK AT THE PICTURE BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE THE LOOK OF IT BECAUSE IF YOU DID...IT WOULD REQUIRE YOU TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT AND SO....IN ORDER NOT TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT......NOT LOOKING AT THE PICTURE...IS THE PATH OF LEAST RESISTANCE AND THE EASY WAY OUT. THAT IS WHAT IS SELFISH AND WHAT THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR WHAT SO EVER.

So in respect to what I just said. A person who has ADHD....is not inherently selfish or self centered in a selfish kind of way? But there are selfish people who have ADHD...and the way to tell IMHO....is whether they refuse to look at the picture..in order to get out of doing anything about it and gets defensive and angry....just by asking them to look at it? That is purely self centered and selfish...and in my mind.....that is a selfish person.

So in respect to me and my ADHD? I'm not a selfish person. I looked at the picture....found out how to correct my part...followed through with doing everything I can to make the picture work and fit myself to the picture and everyone and everything in it...and am continuing to work on it as we speak to the best of my ability?

My wife on the other hand.....is a selfish person IMHO. She is afraid to look at the picture because she lacks courage ( from her own weakness ) and refreshes to look at it and refuses to take reasonability for the picture she inhabits with an expectation that someone else will fix the picture...so she won't have to expend the energy and effort if she did. In my mind...that is just a lazy, selfish person who could give a damn but anyone but herself and that is the cold hard truth? There is no way I can't see this in comparison...and see this picture clearly.

And the only reason my wife gets angry with me...is because she is trying to control me and can't....just like everyone and everyone else in the picture..and expects me and everyone else...to fix the picture for her because she is a victim with chronic victim mentality which is what a person selfish and nothing else. It's the victim mentality that makes her self righteous and selfish....not the picture or her ADHD and this explains why we are out of synch together? I'm approaching the same picture...from the completely opposite direction which requires work and effort and a willing to experience pain and discomfort., do things about it, make the effort, put in the time..and go through the frustration and the failure in the attempts to learn but is just part of the process. If I didn't do that....I would be shirking my responsibility to my wife and everyone else...because my problem...is not everyone else problem....even if I know that and I know that it still is a problem for everyone else at times...I don't try and defend against it. I don't get upset of angry at other people due to my failures and I don't try and blame others for my personal problems only....have difficulty explaining or expressing the struggles I am having especially with someone who won't listen or believe you? That's a separate issue...but that is not my personal problem, either as I said. That's the other person problem...in not believing me and I don't spend any time worrying about things I have no control of...because I do have more important things to worry about...than that? But because of what I'm doing..and what I have done....I'm not a selfish person or think like one or even act like one and if I fail or it causes someone else a problem...I try and make up for that as best I can so my problem doesn't;t become their problem?

And the reason I do this...is because I am not afraid, not lazy, and not a selfish person which is more than I can say for my wife since.....any energy or time spent in terms of selfish lazy person who is afraid of hard work or looking at the picture just as step ONE. Ground "0". And refuses to even look.....is a waste of previous time and precious life...and has not earned that from me what so ever. Waste of time....is the operant word....in putting any effort in trying to make her look at the picture...because nothing will change and nothing will come of it...so why waste the time if that's the case? And why waste your precious time...on a lazy selfish person who's too afraid to look? That's the only thing that is selfish in terms of having ADHD right there?

'I don't want to"......is her answer and the answer a child would give in the exact same situation because it's hard. That is just ( MENTALLY LAZY ) and being childishly selfish in my mind ......but that's just my opinion....I know how hard it is ....but hard in no excuse? Either you have what it takes...OR you don't I guess and apparently...my wife doesn't have what it takes? at the end of the day or within the picture itself but that is irrelevant. My time, my life...is too valuable to waste on someone who is just too scared, selfish or lazy to simply LOOK at the picture which is all I have ever asked just as a start. That is the simple request that she refuses to give me...and if she refuses and continues to refuse....I'm Okay with that? But yy time is not her time. My energy..is not her energy...and if she wants my energy and time since I will not waste another minuted of my time for a selfish lazy person....she will need to earn it by looking at the picture first...and then doing something about it? Any time or energy I expend with a person who's too selfish JUST LOOK at the picture ( that's all I am asking )...is a waste of time and energy until that day happens if ever....that's up to her. I have a life..and my time is too precious and valuable to me too waste it on someone who does not deserve it and hasn't earned it. You have to give.... to get in this word and if you don't give....you don;t get. It's the way it works for everyone including my wife. She is not special in this case but then again...neither am I ...but since I share the exact same problem and know how hard it is? She cannot use any of the things or reasons she says for simply not wanting to or refusing to LOOK AT THE PICTURE....in it and by itself...is what makes her selfish and nothing else.

She's a big girl of 60....she isn't a child and can figure it out without my help and is on her on. I'm not her mama or daddy....trying to be one is also a waste of time and I refuse to that as well. The same as I did? Or not?

But in respect to you and your husband DO......the picture itself is still a good one and one that I think is accurate? I just kind of went over that picture with you here now....and applied the specifics to us and our picture ( within the picture ) and told you what I see and think specific to us and what I see in it? I've done a pretty good job so far at identifying or separating myself out in this picture...but my wife and her refusal to look or saying anything...leaves me to figure out what I am seeing with her...but this is exactly what it looks like to me and the reasons and feelings that go along with it on my end in respect to my wife without more to go on which she refuses to give me or help with any effort in fixing the problem exactly like I said?

But for you as I said...if you can take the this picture I painted for you..and use it to do what I said....I think this might help you see things more easily since that picture really does say a thousand words and will tell you a lot of information and what you are seeing..if you can apply it to your husband because It really is close..if hot exactly...what it feels like to have ADHD? Before..and ,,after...you take the picture seriously?

Definitely out of love

Submitted by DependentOrigination on Fri, 11/25/2016 - 11:51

I don't know what to say about you and your wife. I only know what works for me, what is real for me, and what has helped me, in my life.

Thank you for the bladder analogy. It was very descriptive. Unfortunately, this is not the direction I am headed anymore. If my husband wants me to try to understand him, he will explain it to me. If he wants to start working on his ADD, he will do so in his own time. He know what his untreated ADD has cost him, two wives, a fiancé, his daughters love and respect, friends, jobs, etc. I can have compassion for that, and still have compassion for myself.

There is very little victim in the approach I am taking now. I am loving my husband as he is, and taking care of myself at the same time. There are many wonderful things in our relationship that I can focus on, and have patience for the difficult things. Yes, I know my thinking is simplistic. But that is who I am and what I want for my life.

Happy Thanksgiving. Even though that happened a few weeks go, where I live.

DO and NON......

Submitted by Zapp10 on Fri, 11/25/2016 - 08:38

So grateful for your posts these past days.......To me....they speak of hope. I think I am more unsure of myself than I am my H.

I heard a single short sentence from someone this week that kind of "jarred" me. Most of us would agree that "do the right thing" is pretty sound advice. Now the right thing may be different depending on the individual and circumstances but we use those parameters to guide us in the decision. Determining that RIGHT thing is often times elusive. I have followed this many times in my life's journey and it has served me well.......until the past few years. Overwhelm has sooo many facets that bombard from all angles that my"finding" the RIGHT thing was only adding to it. Sweet, sweet Jesus.

Then, I heard someone say....."do A right thing".........what?.....A right thing?.......Not THE right thing?......you mean there is more than ONE right thing? ........talk about a narrow mind.....yep that's me. Here I am....believing there are many choices in life, that possibilities are abundant and would encourage anyone to that end.....and I was not perceiving my own inability to apply it to this "golden rule" of my life. This may not be of any worth to others.....for me......it is. Just for the sake of argument......I do believe there is a right and wrong and it is very subjective to situations and people. My right may not be yours and it is still good and ditto for wrong. My acceptance of "being" wrong is quite often an "amazing" insight of myself and I welcome it as well as the "peace" I feel with having chosen (thankfully) what appears to be right.

Along with DO's and NoN's post it has been a huge amount to digest. I see a lot of "quiet" (God and me) time coming.....

LOL You Made Me Laugh Zapp

Submitted by kellyj on Fri, 11/25/2016 - 10:04

What?? There's more than ONE right thing???? Oh dear.....that kind of changes everything doesn't it? Oops!!!! LOL

I'm not laughing at you...I'm laughing with you because...... this is exactly what I thought too...at one time??? Ooops??? LOL

You made me laugh. Thank you :)

Excellent thought, and definitely revelant...

Submitted by DependentOrigination on Fri, 11/25/2016 - 13:40

Quite brilliant, really. It is probably blatantly apparent that I am a black and white thinker. I have been accused of this, my whole life.

I will take this into consideration, doing a right thing, instead of the right thing. These kind of cerebral side steps really help my algorithmic, concrete brain. I can still put a bow on things and call them good (hahahahahahhaha) if I have a strategy that will allow me to do some nimble thinking on my feet. Okay, that was self deprecating. I can maintain my peace, my love of my husband, and my love of myself and life, if I can find a way to do a right thing, when the thing I think is the right thing, is not an option for me.

Enjoy your quiet time. It is something I used to cherish and definitely have misplaced these last years. Now that I am making the space for it again, I have a lot more reverence and appreciation for my life. And hope.

What a gem of a present, Zapp

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Sat, 11/26/2016 - 09:11

....to do a right thing. In the present moment and circumstance. Yes, especially in the times one is under bombardment by as you say facets impinging on you from all kinds of directions

You know, that's all any of us can do, in life lived in which things are going on in it.

Much affection as you go into that quiet time, Zapp

Sigh ........NON

Submitted by kellyj on Tue, 11/22/2016 - 23:14

Unfortunately.....I can pretty much echo nearly everything you've said to the letter....and I mean right down to nearly every detail in how you described it which is very helpful and saddening at the same time. The boundary thing is so difficult to know how ( and I don't know how honestly ) which is where the stress is coming in attempting to everything you said. Just identifying what her boundaries is difficult ( don't need to go over that anymore here )...but as you said this...I can assume that your H is NOT, exactly like my wife as far as allowing the boundaries in the first place? When you said your H has good will in these matters.....I am applying what you said previous to this about the variable scenarios and recognizing what those are and what his intentions are along with them? I've found that asking questions doesn't work as...or anything that sounds like a judgment even if it isn't on my part. This contentious aspect of this ( along with the accusations )...always seem to come when I attempt to form a boundary which is precisely when she will shut the conversation down...in the only way I can say this is to say what it feels like...and that is with the intention to prevent me or block me from saying what that is? As my T called it...."muzzling" which is precisely what it feels like to me? I find this beyond distasteful? That's where the moral judgments starting seeping into my writing for sure. Not speaking up is one thing....not being allowed by using this method...is an entirely different thing? At this point....I won't even speculate what that thing is because...I don't know? But it is a thing or an agenda...which seems like more than just an intention? To me at least...speaking only for myself? All I know...is that when she stops short and stops the conversation....all I get is....I don't want to talk about it...and....I want to be left alone. Both of those appear to me as...the consistent thing that she is saying to me...at face value.... which means if I am to respect this wish ( and respect her as well )....I would not then....be here or be in her presence which is what it ends up like....and that is always the case? Actions...or the net result...speak louder than words here? I can't read minds...but I can read what is happening around me and where I am or where I end up and applying that to the words themselves?

So if that's the case...and that is not being allowed....then the boundary is not getting said or stated in the first place....in order for her to have forgotten it or have mine functioning? That's the problem. Ironically...this just happened and I caught it immediately....but then stepped right back into again. Meaning...I said something period. In other words....translated here....when she says stop...I have to stop or that is a disrespect. But to stop you before you get to the part she doesn't want to here....she says stop. So I stop. One word...or one utterance...is now a disrespect....which now invalidates anything I said previously....and I'm the one who is disrespectful.

I have listened to the John Stewart's interview ( the one I put up or included about wisdom ) repeatedly....because something he said registered and resounded exactly what I am saying much better than I ever could? In it...where he said....."The cynical strategy of the republicans says "our position is that government doesn't work. And we're going to ( interviewer interjects and finishes his thoughts for him saying "draining the swamp" ) Stewart: but they aren't draining the swamp......McConnell and Ryan....those guys are the swamp, and what they decided to do was...."I'm gonna make sure Government doesn't work..and then I'm going to use that as evidence of it...Donald Trump is not a republican...he is a repudiation of Republicans..and they will reap the benefits of it..because I will guarantee....they will come to Jesus now, about the power of governement." end quote.

And this is really the most frustrating thing of all. I am....that repudiation...speaking directly to, how I fit...exactly into what he said. I've been thinking about this for a long time and apply the definition of repudiation as:"rejection of a proposal"..and...."denial of the truth or validity of something". And not to input into this any of the content of what Stewart was saying ( which irrelevant )...but within his prediction...he ended with The Power of Jesus......which is just pointing directly to the "Christian Right Wing Agenda"...which is exactly to the point? What is this agenda...that I am a repudiation of? I could not have put this any better if I tried and exactly to the point of what I have been struggling to say so often...or in so many words?

How to do create a boundary....with someone who rejects you as a repudiation and denies you of the validity of doing so.....and refuses to allow a boundary or any attempt at forming one? And how do I NOT See this...as clearly as I do? How can I...in the same way Stewart is saying this....in respect to him and I get this clearly as well....he doesn't know that McConnel and Ryan are intentionally being the swamp as he says. He can't predict the future and now what he is saying is going to happen for sure.....he's not saying any such thing....what he saying however....is right in line with the past and everything that has come before it and the Christian Right Wing...has stated their intentions quite clearly as well? All he's doing...is acting as a mediator of sorts...and looking at both side of every issue...and just doing the math? I don't think he's any genius in that respect...but he's a reasonably intelligent guy..and it's not that hard to see what he is saying even if you don't agree with him?

And in respect to me.....I'm no Einstein...but I wasn't born yesterday either? I can do basic math too....it doesn't take a genius for that?

So the question for me becomes....not that my boundaries aren't working....I have no working boundaries..and this is exactly why? If someone is sabotaging you...to prove that you are wrong and use that as a means to invalidate your proposal .....then ( me here )....all I am is a repudiation of ( something? )..and that something is the agenda itself? What I'm seeing is more than an intent....what I seeing is a lot more distressing and stressful and seeing myself....though the eyes of something that scares me half to death? She is not mirroring me in this case.....there is something behind the mirror that is causing this reaction? This is nothing new...I can assure you...and when I say that I can honestly say that this has been there lurking....and it comes out intermittently ...with hatred and contempt. The contentious nature that accompanies this...only validates what I am saying? And as I sense this ...just under the surface.....that the threat is that I see this...or find it out in another way? This unspoken "secret agenda"....is what is not allowed and in that....being the swamp...with the intent to sabotage seems pretty clear to me in that...which I experience myself?

How can I not see this...and how can you even have a boundary...when the boundary itself is a threat? I wasn't born yesterday you know?

What I do know...is that I am not going with my wife to Thanksgiving with her brother...and I need some time alone to sort this all out. I need a break from the hatred.and contempt...it is more than just stressful. Your words did provide me with some comfort...in echoing my own thoughts exactly. Thank you once again, you are a friend indeed :)

Am reading you, J

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Wed, 11/23/2016 - 07:55

I'm taking a little time to think about what you wrote, especially about boundaries. I'll check back in, soon. Until then, know that I'm thinking about you.

Saying and doing

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Wed, 11/23/2016 - 08:58

Hi, J, I'm on a trip, so am not online very much. This doesnt count as a response to what you wrote, I'm still wanting to cook what you wrote in my mind...not necessarily to come up with advice. Just take it in. But before heading offline, just a thought...boundaries... Do you take care of some of your boundaries with actions, not words? All good wishes, Now

Thanks As Always

Submitted by kellyj on Wed, 11/23/2016 - 17:54

A personal note to you. I can imagine, without assuming too much...that your trip involves the Holiday and with that....the thought that counts. Thank you for taking the time out of your busy schedule....in thinking about me. I do appreciate it much more than you know. I've said this before...and have said I never miss kindness when I feel it from someone but that is not always true. Never and always is dangerous territory!! lol But.....I don't miss it often....and that is more closer to the truth. I am of the opinion that says....with any gift, no matter what it is in reality...is in the giving...not the receiving. It's the thought that counts...and that usually is not hard for me to see or notice and I don't.....miss that very often as long as I can see it coming. This has literally everything to do with what you are saying about actions in boundaries...and failure when you don't have those in place. This is not a failure per se....with not having boundaries and even speaking them as they are....it is the inability to see it coming ahead of time...to have the boundary there when you need it since you've already put it in place....before you get there.

That agenda I was mentioning? It is not an agenda at all.....it is though, from the failure to have the boundary in place...and do what I need to do ahead of time before I get there. I will be making my own post as to the results of my not going to Thanksgiving....and that has everything to do with me.....wanting to go. That is not the problem. This has everything to do with me.....not predicting ahead of time....what my wife was likely to do and that in itself....is part of the dilemma. When someone wants two separate things both at the time time....that are incompatible with one another...and they expect you to respect both at the time or you are not being respectful......that leaves you in a position, of figuring this out for them since they can't figure this out by themselves?

My wife says she is angry many times...or I can feel that she is. But she cannot tell me why? I don't want to talk about it....is the only answer I get. That or.....leave me alone. We talked about this a little more this morning now after the fact ( hindsight...apparently is all my wife can see but there is a reason for that...and it's not in her inability to use foresight....it really is her nearsightedness or inability to see what is up ahead in front of her )....and I told her that when she does this.....the chapter or story in the book you are reading ( if this is our story together )....effectively stops right there, with a bookmark placed right there where you left off....until you open the book back up...and continue on with the story? In between the time you stop reading your book.....you and I and the rest of the world....continue on with our lives and our journey....every man woman and child on this planet and the book remains there waiting...until you pick it back up again...right where you left off?

That book...is actually our relationship together. That is the WE here...and that is really true. My wife says "I'm a planner"...and she plans things so far in advance sometimes...that you when you get there.....things have changed from where they were literally days before? There are no allowances for any contingencies...and there is not room for error or margin in this case since...when the day comes to follow through with the plan ( her plan...not mine ).....the plan...and everything she planned for...is not what she thought it would be? And the reason for this is really easy to see on my end...because I am that contingency...that is balling up her plans. Her plans that is...not mine. There is only one plan here...with two people....but the reason why there is only one plan is because she is the decider for me, for you, for everyone which is based purely on assumption since.....she doesn't know? And the reason why she doesn't know is not because she doesn't care...it's because she doesn't want to talk about it....which is code for......"I don't want to hear about it"...because in reality....she doesn't understand? She gets immediately defensive when I've said this but the stark reality of this is the truth. And the stark reality of the truth is....she really is not a "planner" what so ever? Her ability to integrate even two simple criteria...and put them together in an integrated way is "0"...which is the real reason why this happens. She will say....."you always make things so complicated". I'm not making anything complicated.....life is complicated....people are complicated....things are complicated.....but only when you don't know and don't understand? I understand this....and I also understand that with anything and everything that exist on this planet....it involves systems. Systems within systems. Systems within systems within systems. The only universals truth here...is that within any system.....you are just a cog...within the machine and the machine....operates only when that cog is working properly or the entire machine shuts down and stops working. This is what I know and I know this as well as anyone? Actually....I know this better than lot of people since this was my area of study in college. Systems Analysis. That was my major in Business school but the only reason I majored in that field of study was....I was good at doing that already and that was easy for me? Path of least resistance right there and no other reason. I did not set out.....as my goal....to be a systems analysis technician or expert....I was like that already.....which is usually the case with everyone or you wouldn't pick that to begin with which in my case....I didn't pick it.....it picked me? That...and Legal studies. I was told by one of my professors...that I had a good "legal mind" since I got straight A's in pre-law classes which were just part of my business education and I had tp pick between a couple of choices...and that one appealed to me at the time? But why did that appeal to me at the time? Because it was easy for me to understand? The path of least resistance....again. Just like on the old 7 up bottles......"You Like It...It Likes You".

I can tell you two areas of study that I did not like...and they did not like me? Accounting, and Probability and Statistics !!! OMG!!! "If you have a bag...with 2 yellow marbles....3 black marbles...and one green marble....what is the the probability that if you pick 3 marbles out of the bag....that the 3 marbles will be 1 green, 1 black and 1 yellow marble ? If you want to torture me any harder than you possibly could....make me solve that problem right now!!! LOL This....is not an easy thing for me to figure out and why I hated that so much. I could never just simply understand the process or the pathway to get to the answer and it was like pulling teeth in order for me to understand it....back then...and even now? My brain...just does not work that way and Accounting is just as bad? My ability to organize my thoughts around this problem in that...the organization...by itself...is what scramble my brain...and why I can't do this very easily?

But as I was sitting right next to a person who could...they just breezed on through and understood it the first time...while I was struggling to understand it after the 12th time...and still it was no easier than before? So ...in respect to becoming an Accountant...or a Bookie in a Casino.....do you think that would have been a wise choice in careers? LOL I think NOT!!!

But in turn...do you think I might make a good Lawyer, Architect or Manufacturing Layout Planner or Mechanical Engineer? Or even a Private Detective? What do you think? Maybe....YES? LOL

Clearly....I do understand and systems......and systems within systems.....and systems within systems within systems...and connecting the dots in a linear way.....is easy for me to do. That does require....an ability to organize your thoughts and integrate...multiple variable ( and systems together...into one working system and understand it to the point..of actually making it happen? Actually ...making....a working machine that actually works...in reality? The action...right there.

Me....a working system )...... Her ( another working system ) and put them together into ONE....working system or plan. A working plan. One that works. This is what I do. This was my God given gift to this world and to this planet....to take, a bunch of pieces..and put them all together...and make them work as one....like a machine. That an Art. Art was my gift. I didn't need to try and to figure it out. Just like making a machine that works...out of a bunch of pieces. And if the peice I need doesn't exist.....I can make that piece ( create one )...so that the cog I need to make the machine work....will be put right where it needs to be.....in order for the machine to work. AND.....the machine will look beautiful....on top of it....when it's all said and done. Just like a piece of Jewelry which is why I spent the last 35 years of my life....making Jewelry since...to make a piece of Jewelry and do it well.....you have to be part Artist and Part Mechanical Engineer with a good understanding of Geometry, Chemistry and the Science or Metallurgy, Geology and Gemology...all rolled into one working System.( all those parts...put together ) ...in order to have the outcome....the action.....end up with a functional ( not just in appearance ) but a working, wearable, functioning piece of Jewelry...that won't fall apart as soon a you put it on your body...since like anything else like a pair of shoes, a belt or a piece of clothing you wear....it has to look good, feel good, not fall apart under the stress and strains of everyday wear...and last the lifetime of the wearer....which is what everyone expects?

Systems....within a system....within a system. Piece of cake. Easy breezy......NO PROBLEM!!!!!! LOL That's my gift. That's what I was designed to do and it's easy for me....that's the point?

But don't ask me to do your accounting...or ask me how many black marbles will I get when I pull 3 marbles out a frick'in bag of marbles!!! LOL I AM NOT....GOOD....AT THAT?

But.But But But.........if you wanted me to build you a car from scratch...and sit down and plan ...all the individual systems....system by system.....and then put those systems into another systems....each system working completely independently of one another....all by themselves. And then take those working, functioning individual systems..and put them together...into one system ie: A Car. A Car that works. A Car that functions. A Car that look Beautiful and has a stylish attractive design and painted beautifully on the outside in appearance only......I can do that no problem...and it will last a very long time on top of i....and look good too boot. That's an action....right there. The proof is in the tasting of the pudding...right there??

The bottom line here is. Everything is a system. We are a system. You are a system. Our lives are a system...and we all live in a system or community...which reside inside a county. Which resides inside a state. ....which resides inside our country....which resides inside the Western Hemisphere......which resides inside this planet, which resides inside this Solar system...which resides inside our Galaxy, which resides inside our Universe.

But my wife insists...that I make everything complicated and doesn't know what the Fuck I'm talking about? She says...I don't understand and she does and says she is a planner. My wife...could not plan her way outside of a paper bag....that is so far from being a planner she is. Her plan....doesn't work. Her plan...doesn't function. Her plan...is in essence....trying to decide how it will work...but has no concept of what a system is right from the get go. She is an island...unto herself. An island...is NOT a system....if you don't not realize that an Island is not...the only body of land that exists on this planet.....then the world might as well be flat and we all should just go home and never venture forth...since if you do....you will fall off the edge into a sea of Dragons and Sea Serpents and never be heard from again? But as we know....that didn't happen? LOL

My wife is trying to make...the world ( or systems into ) fit to her.....she is not trying to fit....her to the world and all the systems in it?

Do you think she has any idea what I am talking about? She has no idea...what she is even talking about and yet......she is a planner. Or she believes...she is. Only....she only plans for herself...and no one else that the rest of the world...can go just Fuck themselves!!!

And since she believes...that she is this miraculous planner and no one can plan better than her.....she plans away....and plans everything so far in advance....that her plan has so many contingencies ( all base on her ) and road blocks, ( all base on her again ) and detours and convoluted back alley ways ( completely based on her and her inability to plan or making a working plan ).....that there is no way possible...that this plan will work.....EVER!!! Her Plan....is the worst possible , most complicated,non-integrated, non- functioning, non- linear, non-working, disorganized and disconnected plan Plan you could possibly choose to imagine. Even if you tried to come up with such a plan...... if you were to try and dream up...such a plan, or pull that plan straight out of your ass, or throw a bunch of cards into the air and just pick them up by random and lay them all on a table...you could not come up with a worse plan that the one she came up with. If the goal...was to make a plan...so bad and so non functioning that would absolutely NOT work.....you could not do a better job than my wife at "planning." But she says....."I'm a Planner"

Yes!!!! As long as no one else on this planet...has to try and follow it because my wife neglected to consider the fact....that someone else needs to understand it in order to follow it in the first place? And if you ask her....she gets overwhelmed and then says....I don't want to talk about it? Mania Man...Mania?

Meanwhile....her I am at home....and my wife is on her way to see her brother for Thanksgiving and I'm stuck here and not going? How about that for a plan? I think that plan pretty much sucks....but if you give reason...to my wifes ability to understand and why she won't allow me to plan or cares to even know what my plan is?

It's because.....I can't tell you how many fricking black marbles you will get when you pull three marbles out a bag of marbles....and that's her reasoning ability ( as to my failure or fear I can't do something )..in that she can do that ONE thing I can't....but she can't make a working plan to save her own life?

But I'm a planner she says? Yeah right. She plans the life....right out of existence along with all the oxygen in the room at the same time along with it. Good plan!!! Way to go!!!! Nice Job!!!! Your a great planner!!! As I lie through my teeth...and validate her because that is what I am expected to do which is a lie...every time I say it....but that is what ....I am suppose to do in order to build her up and support her which is ridiculous and A LIE!!! And I'm the one who has to pay for it.

But still.....I can't tell you how many black marbles come out of a stupid ass bag of marbles.....and Why? I mean......what does that prove or have to with anything? Nothing? It's completely irrelevant?

Sorry....I'm a little upset right now...if you couldn't tell? I didn't want to spend Thanksgiving alone by myself....but my wife planned me right out of existence and now....here I am? That's the action.....where's the boundary?

But....I can[t say that and I have to validate her by lying to her and telling her...that she's good planner....but has no idea what a plan...even is...in the first place? She doesn't plan...she decides...unilaterally ...in everything all the time. That is not a plan...that trying to predict the future. If this is not obvious to me before....it is obvious to me now. My wife believes...that she can see into the future....like some Wizard of Magician....and makes her plans accordingly and that is unbelievable......because it is!

Hesitation....KILLS. As they say in Motorcycle racing. One false move, one missed opportunity...one hesitation to exactly what you need to right when you need to do it...and you dead. Hesitation, not understanding, not reacting to the road or people around you ....is not about planning....it's about adjusting, maneuvering, compensating, evading..... in the movement...with no hesitation what so ever...to do exactly what is needed ...right THEN.....NOT later.....or you will die. Hesitation...and indecision.....are Killers...and is why my wife thinks...she needs to plan so far ahead of time...because when that times comes....she thinks that will fix this problem? The problem is....she cannot make a plan in the moment...or change directions when she needs to. Her idea of planning...is to try and think of everything that might possibly go wrong....and try and predict all those things ahead of time...and then put into place as many contingencies and possible scenarios and possible outcomes...and make her plans.....AS IF.....ALL THOSE THINGS are actually going to happen. And they never....ever do.....aside from maybe one time 20 years ago...and she is still planning on that to happen? Only seeing what is wrong.....instead of seeing all the things that are right?

And now here I am....because she.....didn't want to talk about it and won't allow me to plan for us...that is. Only she gets to do that....because I can't tell you how many colored marbles are in a frick'in bag and I don't deny that or dismiss that I can't and say so up front. I'm not a Marbel picker.....I'm a Systems Analyst your freaking retard!!!! errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!

Good plan!!! And my T told her....."He's really not hard to understand." Which in my experience....the only person right now I DON"T understand...is her. Of any other human being I know personally right now.....she's the only one I know..Who doesn't understand what I just said because I've said that in so many words....on 50 or more occasions...and she has never understood that once....but says she does?

" Don't tell me I don't understand. You can't tell me I don't understand! What are you talking about...I don't understand. You're the one who doesn't understand. You don't understand! I know what I'm talking about, I understand!!!!!!( like clockwork...I don;t even bother trying to argue with her......SHE KNOWS!! ( Right ) Don't even insinuate...she doesn't understand? That's the problem. Yet this morning....

I said "you know, I'm just trying to understand you?"

"No your not, you aren't trying to understand me? "

"Better question then....are YOU trying to understand me?"

NO. I can't think about that right now and I don't want to understand you"

"So.....logically....if you aren't trying to understand me....then that means I'm not trying to understand you? Is that what you are saying?"

NO!!! That's not what I said...I said I don't want to!!!"

"Okay...so it is clear to me...that you don't want to understand me. So how can you say "I understand"....when you haven't even tried because as you say....you don't want to? Do you understand?"

NO!!! (lol )

What is NO???? I don't understand!!!! lol

"I don't wan to talk about it" Everything all the time equated to 4 words ever. " I don't want to....." That much, I clearly understand!!! lol

As I'm sitting here writing this. What I understand is I'm here alone for Thanksgiving...and my wife is up with her brother and his family.....and she still thinks she's good planner AND....that SHE understands!!! I AM THE GREAT UNDERSTANDER IN ALL THINGS!!! ( and don't you dare say anything to the contrary!!! lol ) That's what I know?

J

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Thu, 11/24/2016 - 05:46

Well you had a lot in that treasure chest of a post.

I remember enough of that interaction that you described between your wife and her brother on that boat that I can see the wisdom of choosing your times to be around that dynamic again

This post of yours rang a couple bells. The first is that I had a heckkkk of a time convincing my husband that it wasnt going to work with me to decide what I was or wasnt going to attend and do with him...without consulting me. The man doesnt co-plan. I saw other things about what your wife does about the planning thing that reminded me of my husband. They're two different personalities of course, but in my husbands case, he's had to be his own manager for his lifetime, and lol hasnt lived with me before. Yeh, we've had some sparks fly over what he "planned" or told people I would or wouldnt do.....and then just plop it on me or sometimes, would forget to tell me what he promised others I'd do! For him, it has an ADHD piece, J. So he plans , gets committed to what he decided, and things can get in a fluff, not necessarily because I was a fly in his planning ointment, if what he lanned doesnt come out that way. I think for him there are several ADHD pieces in the planning/execution matters for him.

I'm thinking about what you've written about needing to have foresight to be able to exert one of your boundaries. I really get it that crops up in interactions that dont play through in a way that will allow you the time to do what you need on your behalf. I've read your description of conversational dynamics with your wife. I also wondered about ADHD generated difficulty with social foresight. My husband sometimes doesnt see something coming either in social interactions until wham it is right on his doorstep. It's not that he doesnt care or is being selfcentered. It's something perceptual, somehow. So someone else's behavior or reaction tonwhat he just said can mousetrap surprise him. Only part of the time. Is that kind of thing part of why you have difficulty anticipating when to do your boundary moves, with your wife? Just thinking, J.

This one got a smile and an amen from me this morning:)

Submitted by c ur self on Thu, 11/24/2016 - 09:01

(The first is that I had a heckkkk of a time convincing my husband that it wasn't going to work with me to decide what I was or wasn't going to attend and do with him...without consulting me. The man doesn't co-plan.)

(Yeh, we've had some sparks fly over what he "planned" or told people I would or wouldn't do.....and then just plop it on me or sometimes, would forget to tell me what he promised others I'd do! For him, it has an ADHD piece, J.)

I can remember fairly clearly having this conversation shortly after we married....As a matter of fact, other than going places on time (separate cars if needed) this was probably one of the first boundaries I put in place....It has also been the one I've had to continue to reinforce for 9 years....

I often wondered why this was such a problem for her....But 9 years later I realized it was mostly because she knew if I ever committed to something, it got done...(one of her struggles) so, it made her feel good about herself, I think*....Her self esteem was enhanced because...I was her's right? LOL.....

Happy Thanksgivings!

Happy Thanksgivings, C and everyone

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Thu, 11/24/2016 - 16:50

Drive safely, if you're driving. Best wishes for your day.

Happy Thanksgivings, C and everyone

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Thu, 11/24/2016 - 16:50

Drive safely, if you're driving. Best wishes for your day.

This Is Really Helpful ......NON

Submitted by kellyj on Thu, 11/24/2016 - 13:29

This is something I can relate to myself. I remember one time specifically...a very close friend of mine from childhood who is still someone I do things with ( from swimming all the back then ) where he and I have been through many reincarnations of our friendship....too the point, we are almost like an old couple who have lives together for so long....and finally know each other so well.....that we have accepted each others flaws and deficiencies up too a point BUT!!! but after that point is reached.....the kid gloves come off so to speak. lol It really is like that saying "well...The Devil You Know is better than the one you don't!!!"

side note: I recently went onto a forum that dealt with a lot of issues and people coming there for support and recovery from living with or being the adult child with a person / parent with character or personality disorder...and I used that reference or saying as a means to express the same sentiment...using it in the same way....and then got flamed by the moderator of the site ( more like being reprimanded...almost scolded ?? ) saying " there are many people who come here who have lived with the abuse from being gas lighted and are recovering from this experience...and we do not use the word "Devil" here because of it." Which seemed really odd to me since.....I'm one of those people they were talking about myself? Almost as if....I WASN"T one of those people myself ...and they were having to explain to me, why as they called it "name calling" is a bad thing, telling me something already don't know? I know it was just part of the by laws of the web sight but.....it still scratching left me kind of scratching my thinking.about this more? Using an expression....is not name calling at all? Saying "The Devil you know..." is a well known expression and in context...it is exactly what I am saying as well......you get use to....or even accept peoples flaws or even more in context...their sins ( or BAD behavior )....and equating something to the "Devil" in this way by using an expression like this....is NOT calling that person "The Devil" ??? It's a "reference"...in context to an expression and being used in that way? ONE WORD.....does not make....a "meaning" as I thought about this? And here I am ....being as it felt ...almost scolded like a child or being talked down to like a child....as I or all people....do not understand this? Really. In context to everything I written about gas lighting and my own experiences ( a childhood of living with ) a person of this nature.....you'd think...I might know a thing or two about recovery, the experience, the abuse, and the difference of "calling someone the Devil"....or "name calling" as they said.....and using the word "as a reference" in a sentence...and a well know saying ( or expression ) that even if you are a "Believer" as said....we are not children after all....and most adults are smart enough to know the meaning or context of a reference.....and the difference between name calling someone and saying they are the Devil?

What? Like you don't know the difference in using it an expression and this way???? "You're the Devil, and have been possessed by the Evil spirit of Satan himself..... and have become one of his minion and have been charged with being responsible for destroying the lives of all you come in contact with!!! Be gone Satan....I cast you from the SOUL of this Devine child of God!!!!" I command you!!!

So now....going back to what I was saying and about to say...I can include this into my thoughts about this and relate it the same way. In resect to my friend and I.....we have come to know each other so well...and we know all our inherent flaws and "sins"......he and I can say things to each other....that we might be held back from in context to a stranger perhaps? But going a step further than that....and the thing that drives me crazier than crazy? Is this "clamming up" thing. ( stonewalling or denial either way ? )....putting your head in the sand ( like an Ostrich ).....PC ( forced or contrived Social compliance ) and censorship....all come into play here? And along with that....a victim as in my T's definition: a person who refuses to take responsibility for their actions (and I might include...passing the Buck in their too while I'm at it ).....along with enabling...and keeping a "child"..in this someone in a "child like state of mind" or "thinking"...even if it was from this kind of abuse in the first place? Along with dissociation, denial and/or....ALL the negative effects this might have on a person which in my case.....I've experienced them all? So when is it time to speak up and some what is true and when is time to keep your mouth shut? And us talking down to a person like a child .....( in this experience like I had exactly from this moderator ...especially when I was the one who explained that I was that person as well from my past? Like as if.....I needed to be explained this...and even now.....with experiencing this now looking at it from the opposite direction now....which really is "a mirror" or look at myself.....from seeing and experiencing it on the receiving end now....and having a chance to completely change the relationship with my own experience....especially when someone close too you...is pointing their finger at something....even if it's "labeling" or "calling a person a "name".` I mean really? Are we children and have to walk on egg shells in case someone's feelings get hurt? That is the reason to call someone a name after all....an "attempt" to be hurtful......but we are not children....we are all adults and we should be treated as such and not feel like we are in Kindergarten and have our "mouths washed out with soap" for saying....."naughty words "? Another well known current expression...."GET REAL"...which is saying as I interpret it....."BE AUTHENTIC"......which forced ( contrived ) Social compliance ie: PC. PC is NOT authentic...when it is "prescribed" and "forced" as a means to correct what needs to be corrected? It definitely is not "NATURAL"..or being "yourself " ( who's this we again?? )and is just prescribed "denial of anything negative" again...."BE NICE. Put a Bow on it...and call it GOOD."

"BE NICE. Put a Bow on it...and call it GOOD." ? Talking to people like they are children and need their mouths washed out with soap for saying the word "Devil" ( naught naughty ) Forced or prescribed ( contrived ) Social compliance through individual action as in PC ? Victim mentality and perpetuating or insisting on keeping the status quo alive doing it that way by just adding more on top of by enabling and not confronting the issue head on and taking personal responsibility? Quilting someone and talking down to them like a parent as with a child in a self righteousness and imperious way? Imposing "sanctions on people" for using ( naughty words ...or ones that some people might find..."distasteful"....like you are in some of institutional facility...like a Church or Public School? Big brother is watching....just like Santa Claus??? Give me a break We have a super ego don't we... Isn't that the Super Egos job?

"Clamming up"...putting your head in the sand, looking the other way and dismissing your own as well as others ( personal responsibility ) ? "Muzzling" people...and trying to prescribe to others...."walk this way" either by the power of suggestion, sanctions, or forced Social compliance? HA! Like freaking Marty Feldman in Young Frankenstein....as Gene Wilder starts to copy him and goes....."Okay...Wait a Minute" ..so you don't see the truth and "never anything "Unpleasant"...or ....."Distasteful" Put a bow on it...and call it GOOD???? The hypocrisy..is mind blowing??? THAT IS ABUSE!!!!!!!! OMG!!!!!!! It's the same abuse ...I experienced as a child and it's the worst form in that it is convert, dishonestly wrapped in a "NICE PACKAGE"....to cover for the insidiousness and underhanded way in doing this very thing? It is the ABUSE....that was perpetuated by my own mother and exactly what I experienced....and now.....here I am ...going to a psychological web sight and forum...for those just like me...and the moderator of the web sight...IS doing the exact same thing when I received my "mouth washing with soap" and being talked down to as IF.....I'm an idiot or a child? Parent child dynamic happening...right in front of my eyes from the very people who are proportion "good things" or "helping" with this same none sense and trying to convince me that this is GOOD!!!! That is a form of gaslighting...right there!!!! Unbelievable? With sanctions no less???? By forced "prescription? Here ....hold HIM down and we'll shove this pill down his throat. Now be a good boy and swallow." Anything you say....."Nurse RACHET!!!" lol Coo Coo !!!! That's NUTS!!! lol

And the end result here for me is...I will never go back there again..and that's the bottom line? I think whether anyone agrees with me or not in the content here....what you can't argue or disagree with are my feelings...... and if that's the case with me and my experience in having ADHD...then I might assume that others who have it...will respond in a very similar...if not exactly the same way from this the same as I did. I can't say fact....but one might assume?

Here it is, in just what I experienced in that moment when I read that email. "Okay.....WAIT A MINUTE. Now Wait just one "Cotton Pick'in" Minute!!!!" Oh my God? What have I done....I used the phrase "Cotton Pick'in"....as in "Cotton Picker."..as in "BlACK Slave"...as in Nigger? Right? And because of that...I don't use that expression for that very reason. But I knew a lot of people who did and probably still do....who are not necessarily "racists or bigots" but it is an ignorant saying none the less? But I'm also not a child...and I'm an adult...and I know the difference and expect to be treated as such? I may even choose to use these expressions or sayings "on purpose" in being "facetious"..or to point to the hypocrisy ( actually in favor of not using sayings like that ) in going along with...it not being good...by using them in that way?

In all of this...and in every way I could possibly dissent....this is the "Mind Fuck"....when someone else is telling you how to feel...and forcing you into compliance and using guilt as a means to do it like a parent or teacher or preacher.....talking down to you like you are a child when you are an adult? THAT....is abuse!!! THAT is NOT....Helping....what so ever. And I can tell you...from over 15 years in therapy with a really good, smart and savy therapist ( who also has ADHD ).....the last thing he did ..or has ever done with me....is that. Because it's a disrespect to your intelligence and is offensive for all the reasons I just gave? That is the end result....and how I came away from that Email I received... I will never return to that forum again because of it? Trying to convince you that "Mind Fucking" is a good method to teach people a lesson ( is almost like gas lighting in itself.) ...is just Mind Fucking unbelievable...putting it succinctly and right too the point?

All I can say is....it is what I Love about this forum. Melissa once emailed me once and said what I had said made her angry. That's all she had to say... I'm a big boy...I can take it from there? I so much appreciate that more than anything...and why I responded so negatively .....in comparison to another web sight proporting..."as they say" a means for recovery and support? In my personal and humble opinion.....that is not the way to go about it..and I gave all my own reasons here....why that is? It is not doing anything for "change"...and all it does is go in the opposite direction. Putting a bow on it. Be Nice.....don't be naughty...and imposing sanctions...is the worst thing you could possibly do in my humble opinion? PC...is not natural...and is just "forced" Social Compliance....and trying to control others by this Mind Fuck method and putting into a personal context ...and trying to say it's good? It's not good...and it's not nice and it's "naughty".....speaking "down to it" in the same imperious self righteous way like a parent to a child. The only thing "wrong" here.....is the method itself IMHO...because it's the "opposite" form of abuse...going in the other direction from the other extreme now?

Literally speaking....I had both kinds of abuse in my childhood ...from both sides of this issue....and they are both "wrong" and a Mind Fuck....any way you want to slice it when you are talking to an adult...and not a child? Like I said.....I wasn't born yesterday you know. Insulting peoples intelligence...is an insult none the less? How likely are you going to respond...when someone insults you? Not very well...I can assure you of that? It's certainly not giving people the benefit of the doubt...and it's certainly not respectful of any differences or allowing for any and with someone with ADHD.....all this will do is BLOW up in your face!!! Something in between these two methods is needed here and this is what I can relate to in what you are saying as well?

NOW...going back to what you were saying. Sorry...I kind of went on a tangent there....but it is directly to the point...and making these distinctions by separating this all out and putting on the table here? What will never work if dealing with someone who is in denial...is just more denial..and dismissing what "you" don't want to see or that which is "unpleasant". That is just throwing gas on the fire...and is like a living Hell....putting the Devil back into context here? NOT GOOD. NOT GOOD....AT ALL!!! lol

But with my friend one time in particular....I had done exactly what you described and I do remember this well. At the and time....I really was trying to please two different people and myself...all at the same time..and what ended up happening was.....I disrespected my good friend and put him second...in that case by doing it with no intention what so ever on my part? I made a mistake...and committed myself to two different people at the same time because I wanted to do both things with both people and didn't realize this until it was too late. And I kind of "put myself right in the middle" of it..or "stepped right into it"...and now I had to choose between two people and choose one over the other? What ended up happening was I attempted to cut short my time that I had originally committed to him.....so I could go do the other thing that conflicted in time with the other person but my good friend ( who knew very will in this case ) really became the Devils advocate here...and he actually spoke up and called me onto the table and got angry with me and told me off and told me exactly what I was doing. He shined a big spot light right on me and it mae me feel very guilty for doing that? I realized what I had done...and he was NOT NICE about it for sure. He had every reason to be angry with me...and I felt like a total coward and very small indeed. I ended up writing him a long apology letter and telling him how important my friendship with him was and told him I was very sorry and I realized my the error of my ways?

The recent post I put up including what Jesus said here and using him as my reference now....."Then Jesus said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? Then how will you understand any of the parables? The farmer sows the word. There is something....both, universally true and powerful in this statement when apply it to the Parable of the Sower and what I wanted to bring back into this putting this into context again.

"so that, ‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven." This so much applies to everything I just said about the way I was treated by the moderators of that other web sight...the one I will never go back to in terms of insulting a persons intelligence..and thinking this a good way to teach them anything? I learned a lesson for sure...."Never go back there because I don't want to be treated like a child or talked to in such a way which was a direct insult to me instead of any help or support I was seeking instead? This weak attempt at "quilting" me and forcing compliance .....veiled as a superior person who is trying to impose sanctions on me and not just implying....but saying that a phrase with the word "Devil" can't be used even as an expression....because that is not PC or ...not correct....and we will "correct you" by censoring you and sanctioning you if you do it again? Naughty naughty!!! Again....that was the "effect" it had on me and why it was not a good strategy to use IMHO.

And the effect that my friend had on me...by speaking the truth and calling me onto the carpet.....was exactly what I needed to here? I may not have liked it...and I may have been ashamed...but he didn't try and sugar coat it...and put a bow on it and call it good? This sugar coating things...is part of ..or a component thing of the abuse itself? White washing, and sugar coating....BE NICE..and forced Social compliance makes you feel like you are in Kindergarten...and being talked down to and that will never work.

The problem here is denial...in my humble opinion? And a person in denial needs to hear the truth.....as much as it hurts and as much as they don't want to hear it...not enabling and sugar coating and tap dancing around it or holding their hand? All that did with me in terms of my mother...was make me furious ( and rip the fridge door right off the hinges ) which did nothing or instilled any change in me....and I certainly didn't feel like apologizing for sure. You aren't going to get any apologies or consideration...when you go around insulting people this way? People don;'t like to be insulted and insulting will not HELP what so ever?

But in respect to my friend and dear close friend who might have seemed like the Devil to me since he was hurtful in the words he used and called me names on top of it in disrespect to emphasize his contempt for me in that moment...for actually doing something I definitely did wrong? And I apologized profusely from the guilt and embarrassment I felt by writing him a hand written letter and delivering to him personally ...even if I couldn't confront him with those words in that....that was too uncomfortable for me to do...but it really doesn't matter. I hand it to him and he read it...and that's all that really was important? What I did....was resolve his anger and allowed for forgiveness in exactly what Jesus was saying? Perceiving....vs....seeing....and hearing vs understanding....as the means to find forgiveness.

If you cannot perceive...or ...understand...then how do you get someone to see this? A person in denial like my wife....'doesn't want to"....."I don;t want to" because it hurts the same as it did for me? I didn't want to either....but I did it anyway and it didn't kill me. What it did...was a blessing in disguise but I did not know that at the time. So in respect to a blessing in "disguise" and calling a person onto the carpet...like you are suggesting exactly.....'"firmly"...and just saying it ONE TIME......is in essence...exactly what my friend did to me? He may have even used "asshole" in their...but I deserved it. Sticks and stones will break your bones but names will NEVER hurt you. And how. My mother...taught me that one...when I was like 6 or 7 years old? You could call me any name in the book or try to....assassinate my character....but that will never work with me because if it's not true....I know that...no matter what anyone else says?

While this...".Bow" thing is not only worthless...but it is an insult instead. PC is worthless and is an insult to you personally. It may.....look GOOD...by making appearances...but that only works with children not adults. Making appearances...and being deceptively dishonest....is an insult no matter which way you slice it....because it is attempting to circumvent the truth and trying to disguise it in another way. That is the opposite of a "blessing in guise"...that is an "insult in deguise"...and an insidious form of disrespect. All that could possibly teach you...is that you do not deserve respect. That the effect it has and why this is such a poor method...and a dishonest one.....that is clearly just a very transparent and thin veil for cowards and weakness IMHO. When confronting someone who is strong willed.....meeting them head on with lack of courage and weakness ( or from a victim stance ) ...is never going to push through and break them out of denial. They are victims in this respect...and you are NOT in respect to you or how to approach someone who is in denial and raging and having a temper tantrum like a child even if it's related to ADHD an emotional liability? Meeting them head on with the truth....and then keep hammering on them each time they fail...from a stronger position than they are...,with a stronger inner power and strength is literally just like Jesus...and turning the tables on them in outcry for their offense...( not matter how much they pitch, scream, cry or pout and attack you back or attempt to punish you for your offense ) And you do risk....retaliation and char actor assignation attempts....but are we children here? Sticks and stones man....sticks and stones. Just like....MY mama taught me...when I was 7 years old? And ...I got over it all the way back then because I got called names all the time...but it ran off my back....like water on a Duck? No one can make you feel anything...and weak attempts to do that by name calling is exactly that. A weak attempt on their part.

But when you combine the power of what Jesus was saying...and turn the tables on them like my friend did to me.....you learn the right lesson...in the way it needs to done...no mater how much ( they..as a person in denial with ADHD ) doesn't like it......and that's the pill you need to "shove down their throat" in that case...that will have the right effect when called for. The key is timing...and only when necessary and knowing when and how to do it...and then doing it well?

I lived in my home for almost 18 years...with an abusive father who took advantage of others weakness's to get what he wanted. And there is NO way....I cannot see this...and see what my mother finally did. She just got pissed...and she grew some giant Cahonies...and went toe to toe with the Devil himself. I am....just using that as way to highlight....that's it's stupid...in my opinion...to control words as a means for expression in the right context? The power of " the word".....is what is powerful and universal truths...can be said anyway imaginable...and still mean the same thing since there is no arguing against them ever.....but sometimes they need a little more "force" behind them...if you will? Hand holding will only get you so far and I already told you why PVC only comes across as an insult and disrespect ( be NICE ) ...if you are going up against a will that is stronger than your own and you need to meet them head on with the truth.....repetition is more effective with some blunt force added...as long as it's done and identified correctly and your timing is good. My friends timing was impeccable...and on his behalf.....is not one to keep his mouth shut and not speak out against what is not right. He is rather blunt and and has a pretty big spot light in his pocket at all time= ..when hypocrisy rears it's ugly head.

The bottom line here is honesty....and truth.....not.....lying from weakness...and trying to hide what is unpleasant and dismissing what you don't "like" or might "hurt someone feelings". All I can say to that is.....you will get no where...in a hurry....approaching things that way and the effect this will have or an impact to change?

I will make another post about the net result of yet...another one of these confrontations which will shows me that every time I do it...something good comes from it. A blessing in disguise....is still a blessing none the less not matter which form it comes in if it's the universal truth. The delivery method...is somewhat negotiable I guess? LOL

Where there is a will....there is a way? I think that is also a universal truth right there?

And thanks again for highlighting this for me NOW. Interesting end result...last night, my wife called me and was extremely nice and even thankful. I told her it was good to see her brother by herself and have some time with him alone. I on the other hand....was really not up to this thing my wife does each time I am with her brother ( which is my wife..not my brother in law ) who is creating the problem. She unknowingly....is doing exactly what I said. Committing to two people at once...and then picking one over the other...and the one she picks is here brother instead of me. I'm just a second class spectator every time this happens..and I am in 2nd place and her brother is in 1rst....and she is making that choice and not understanding the effect it has on me? And without all the details.....I refused to be put in that position..and I told her that in more words by saying....."it's the position you are putting me into when you do that...so I choose not to go if that is my only option?" If I have to lower myself.....just to be with you and your brother at the same time....then I choose not to." And of course...my wife was angry.....she threatened to leave again ( I can't take this any longer ) as she said.....and then turned around and became the victim when she said it....and was upset saying....."it's my fault" and was in tears...flip flopping and trying to gain sympathy. She could flip flop all day long....but I was not going if I had to lower myself and take second seed....in a context where this is not necessary...and one my wife puts a wedge...between her brother and I...and is creating this really bad co-depedent dynamic....and everyone loses and no one is happy? This is the dynamic that was taught to them by their mothers actions....but...in respect to everything I just said....they are adults...and they need to figure this out on their own but also saying....."homey don't play that game"...and if I have to ....then I don't play at all. They can have the sand box...all too there selves but also saying.....by me not going.....the sand box doesn't;t get brought out....in the same context without me there. I'm I'm Okay with that....because the alternative to being alone on Thanksgiving...is having to have Thanksgiving alone...or in that weird triangulated sand box...where my place of "disrespect" was already there waiting for me....and that choice is easy amd I'm much happier camper....by camping alone is this case : )

Happy Thanksgiving to everyone.....have a thankful day or rest and peace :)

Hi VTW....

Submitted by c ur self on Tue, 11/22/2016 - 22:52

You really got some great advice here...I would just add (to simplify) to what has already been said in different words....To calm yourself down...You will need to turn inward, deal with your own heart and mind....You (like I did) got in this state of frustration (bitterness) out of simply allowing the effects of his living of life to curse you.....You must do what you have to do TO NOT OVER FOCUS, ANALYZE, OR DESPISE HIS REALITY, ITS NOT CHANGING!

The more you accept his reality, and your own, the more clear the difference's become, and the easier it will be for you to set healthy boundaries (like Now was pointing out)...When we get to the point of acceptance (acceptance doesn't mean we agree)....This is who they are! When you set yourself free from wanting to change, judge or fix him....You will find your level of stress and frustration will diminish greatly....

Acceptance of Reality...It is the magic bullet....

Two consecutive angry nights...

Submitted by Ifeelstupid on Fri, 12/16/2016 - 23:04

I am venting. But I am REALLY angry. Last night Husband asked me to go pick up dinner and gave me cash to pay for it. The car was on 0 miles to Empty when I got home. I drive a different car for work, and keep it filled with rhe gas I need. Since he is so forgetful, I told him about the empty tank and that I had left the keys on the floor of that car, so he would remember to buy gas if he planned to use it. He said "Why didn't you take the other car?" I said, truthfully, "I don't know, I just didn't". End of story? I don't think so. And, the house is roasting hot because he's so cold. I foolishly lowered the thermostat to a temperature we can afford to maintain. He's highly verbal and I expected complaints. No complaints, he just set it higher and higher every time he addressed it. I went to bed when I found it set at 84 degrees, with plastic lids taped over it and a barrier to the door providing access.

That was last night. Tonight he told me he wanted to drive the car I used for work today, to attend a family birthday in the morning. He said the reason was that the car he had access to all day, had no gas because "you left it that way". I went out, put gas in the second car, and transferred what I had loaded into my work car into the car he wants me to drive tomorrow.

It maybsound like a First World problem, but we are in dire financial straits and it makes me furious to have him sit on the sofa calling the shots and complaining. I felt too angry to discuss anything, and sometimes that strategy pays off. Thanks for being out there, everyone.

I Feel Your Pain......How Frustrating!!!

Submitted by kellyj on Sat, 12/17/2016 - 12:57

I'm being flooded with memories right now in all the things you said? I think the best thing you could have done is exactly what you did? First world problems are easier to deal with? Being a "good boy scout" is always being prepared right? I was thinking exactly to a situation where, my best friend was learning to fly an airplane (private lessons ) in which the instructor allowed a passenger to ride along and I got that chance to sit in and listen? This was and is...one of my closest friends who ended up actually becoming a fighter pilot ( for real ) later on...but this was his initiation into the world of flying an airplane? I could use any number of examples here that are saying the same thing since my friend and I together...had done many things like this in the past where...."Life and Limb"...depends on being prepared and making sure you do everything in your power to head of the unforeseen so you can eliminate any part on your end ahead of time...to make sure at least "user error" is not involved but more importantly....."equipment failure" since life and limb depends on it? And literally....in the case of flying.....your plane is the key to make sure it's working properly...before you take off the ground!!! LOL Kind of no brainer there if you stop and think about it?

And this is even more critical...if you are renting or sharing a plane with someone else since...you might have not been the last one to fly in it? So no matter what....if the plane is in a nose dive since it ran out of fuel.......in a moment like that....it doesn't matter who's fault it is ( the last person who used it ) if they forgot to fill it up...and you forgot to make sure the plane had fuel in it? Right? This just came to mind as I sat and listen to this instructor basically say the same thing and demonstrated the "preflight chick list" that you go over every time you fly and airplane? And it is the same thing in Maritime activity too.....if you the Captain of the ship.....then your responsible for everything that happens to it?

HOWEVER!!!! Under the best of circumstance and even if you as Captain...or in charge of operating the driving "YOUR ship"...whether it is borrowed or is yours.....equipment failure is one thing...it's another thing if someone else comes along and does something that you didn't count on in between the time you looked...and the time you took of the ground? In other words...if someone does something stupid...and doesn't tell you this without your knowledge....now they kind of sabotaged you.....whether it was with good intention....or NOT? If you are counting on...or even predicting that someone might do something like this..and are covering all the bases and contingencies as best as you can predict....I have found that some people have a talent...for finding the one way that you didn't think of....and do that very thing!!!

And my own experience says....it can come in different forms as well which makes it even more unpredictable in order to predict ahead of time? The words "I'm sorry....I was just........"....are ringing in my ears right now from remembrance of someone....who saw themselves as "only trying to help". And without going into all the detail with this person....they were not.....only trying to help ME as they said......they were actually......"only thinking of themselves" but not in a selfish way? More in terms of thinking for the other person...and using themselves to do what they thought would be best for them....so therefore....what would be best for everyone else without "thinking this through" because at the source of their thinking....was "fear". And so everything they did...was in anticipation of the worst thing happening.....so when out of "fear" they'd see something and go...."that might be a problem.....I better fix this so that won't happen?"

Ever hear of the phrase....."if it's not broken......then there's no need to fix it?" When someone like this comes along and fixes what is not broken without your knowledge....what they just did was "make it broken"...by their meddling and making what is not their business....their business by trying to get involved from their own fear and lack of trust in the situation...and trying to remedy something that doesn't need remedying? So with no intention what so ever....from what you might say...."coming from a good place"....they do the worst thing they could possibly do....in order to fix something so they will feel better about it now....but they really have no business getting involved since what they did was throw a Monkey Wrench into the gears...without you knowledge?

This fellow I worked with was the one who made me think of it? I had worked for over 14 years in our shop with two people for 10 of those years without change and we worked closing and shared the same machines? Then when these two left....another 3 people came in after the fact and worked along side me together and things remained mostly the same? Until...this new guy came in after almost 16 years of never have any problems like this ever ( not once with anyone else )...and suddenly....weird strange things started happening...but one of them was "catastrophic" you might say. Literally...and total malfunction in equipment...which caused a chain reaction of failure in a catastrophic way?

To be clear here....we had a burn out oven with a timed program to run overnight since it took 8 hours to burn out a casting mold....so you could cast it in the morning first thing when you arrived at work? This was set up and running for 14 years...and no one every touched it? Ever!!! But suddenly....over night ( literally ) I would walk into work and go to cast my piece first thing (since it was due that day to the customer since we worked on a very tight schedule..and every minute counted sometimes since the customer needed it that day and we were trying to accommodate them)......and the oven malfunctioned to work and now....the chain reaction of problems arose since now....I can't cast...and I have a deadline I can't meet but it's do or die .....so I have to improvise and scramble and rush to meet the deadline by doing it in the most risky and dangerous ( or perilous ) way....since know....I've got to gamble and risk it all so to speak...just to do what would have been a simple procedure in a controlled fashion. It's not that I couldn't do this or didn't know how...but Plan B....was really about the worst possible way you could do something...since it created a multitude of risky step and operations that you'd be lucky if it turned out correct by the skin of your ass putting it that way? Basically saying....you'd be Lucky...to have the results your wanted...IF...everything went perfectly now...with no room or error or to go wrong in order to recover from this and fix.....( what wasn't broken ) in this case by doing it now....in the worst way possible?

So I checked everything..and couldn't figure out at first what the problem was since the equipment was working fine? So what's the problem? Finally...I realized....someone was coming along..and actually turning the switch off on the oven....so of course it didn't work? If you turn the button from on to off.......machined and equipment...tend not to work!!!! LOL

So I walked in to the shop and diplomatically asked everyone...."did someone change the settings on the burnout oven...it seems that someone is turning it off at night?" That was being nice since I knew who it was in this case?" And this fellow said..." Oh....I was just turning it off so there wouldn't be a fire "......in what he said, but without belaboring the punch line here....this guy had a morbid fear of fire and anything "toxic" in his environment. He had a compulsion to do things like this that he was not even aware of which played out exactly as what happened next?

So I said...."Oh...I can see what your intentions were....but no one has touched those settings for 14 years and so now.....here I am? I can't finish the job due today..and now I have to scramble?" With me thinking....I've explained this clear enough...that won't happen again?" I would be wrong in this case...because it happened another 2 times and now I was getting really angry? So I said it again to him and he said the "Oh....I was just...........' again...so now I said....."DON"T TOUCH IT AGAIN!!!! It Doesn't need your help and is just fine the way it is!!! For 14 years just fine...so don't do it again!!!"

So you'd think that would have made myself perfectly clear wouldn't it? DO NOT TOUCH!!!! What do you think happened next time?? LOL But now my boss was getting angry with me since the chain reaction this caused ended up with a problem for the customer since this last time actually caused the job to be late...and I was the one doing the job and this fellow had absolutely nothing to do with it at all and I'm standing their with egg on my face without any means to explain this so I was the one who got the shaft...so to speak?

Here's what reminded me of what you were saying because what I did next...was to take the oven apart..and disable it...so you could never shut it off from the inside...so no matter what....the switch stayed on permanently as it should be....but with no way to ever turn it off which fixed this problem permanently speaking so it would never happen again? The timer turns it on and off...but power stayed on 24/7 in this case which was the same thing as it was before....but now you couldn't change the settings?

When this really came to a head and made me see this .....was when this fellow.....actually came to me and said something is wrong with the oven? I said..."What do you mean?" And he said...."Well....I tried to turn it off...but the switch seems to be broken" LOL "I said no...the switch isn't broken...but I disable the switch permanently...so you can't turn it off on me like you keep doing?" And he looked at me with this alarmed look on his face...and tried to convince me that this was NOT SAFE!!! And I looked at him and said....."Well...it's be safe enough for the past 14 years using it this way 4 to 5 days a week in an ongoing basis with myself and everyone else and have never had a hiccup...until you came along and started meddling and putting your nose in where it doesn't belong......so I don't know what to tell you???" Since he directly was disobeying what I told him not to do...and even coming to me now....and admitting he was attempting to do it again...right to my face? Like DUH!!!! This guy had an irrational fear and an anxiety problem that had reached to point of obsession and his obsessive mind was catastrophic anything that looked "dangerous to him only" or "potentially dangerous to him only"...and therefore....I must remedy this situation....compulsively and irrationally speaking. And he could not stop....no matter what was said?

And once I disabled this so he couldn't.....his behaviors ramped up even more since now...."he couldn't fix it what was not broken"...and this caused him a chain reaction instead of anxiety?

And my opinion of that situation at least which was kind of cut and dried here? "Better him than me.....sounds like a personal problem" Which I stated to his face...since I was his supervisor and that was appropriate after giving him a direct order to follow since he refused to do as I actually "ordered him " to do in this case?

As my T pointed out to me very eloquently......"Stubbornness....is persistence, gone bad?" There are reasons for all of these things and I have my own to keep and eye on? But when someone tries to tell you that it's your fault as in: He said the reason was that the car he had access to all day, had no gas because "you left it that way". I went out, put gas in the second car, and transferred what I had loaded into my work car into the car he wants me to drive tomorrow. There is something up here and I think I can see the problem? It's not necessarily anyones fault per se...but there is something to blame here that is similar to the example with the guy I worked with?

Fear? When fear is your motivator....it makes for poor decision making and sometimes...you end up....tripping over pennies...on your way to making a dollar because of it? And the right hand...not knowing what the left hand is doing? Or robbing Peter to Pay Paul as different means to express this? You can apply that thinking to yourself...and you can apply it to two people equally well?

And with in my thinking about this...going to back to flying an air plane example...and there you are in nose dive spiraling towards the ground and saying your prayers in your last moments on earth?

It really doesn't;t matter who's fault it is...when you're dead? Does it? And within the same metaphor....when your own motivation...is completely different than another persons...then the intention changes as well? And when these things become so obsessive and persistent with each person due to some kind of fear? Then you got "competing sensitivities" going on with each other...and that is really a problem?

The big picture is him sitting on the sofa and calling the shots and complain and I can't even guess your financial situation or the whys and what's there but looking at the same things that happen with my wife and I ....I see the same things happening with us as well and I am on your end of the heat being turned up so high which is both really uncomfortable for me and....a big waste of money so I understand this predicament and my wife does the same thing? I have had to compromise here a lot..in what I want...to meet her need to "stay warm" she is very cold sensitive and I am just the opposite in that I am "heat sensitive" plus it's a waste for me to spend money needlessly...on my account that is just for her? But I have had to come to the middle here with her on that...and just let go of the dollars and sense part since she does need to be able to feel comfortable and not be cold in here own house?

But in respect to the car thing...that is a little easier to sort out because I have the same tendency you have...to keep my tank with only what I need in it...to get me by so that money is sitting there necessarily....just waiting to be used ie: A full tank that will last me 2 weeks......instead of a 1/4 tank which cost 1/4 of the money to fill? The problems and problem with that kind of thinking...is it leaves no room for error? In an effort to save the money now in the present....you end up screwing yourself by running low or putting yourself in a critical do or die situation if you had just filled the damn tank with gas.....because.....you'll end up using it a week later anyway? Toilet paper, and gasoline for the car? You know you going to use it for sure...so why buy only enough to get you by until tomorrow? You just end up buying it away....but now 4 times the work and effort to get there? For trips to fill it up. Four time the hassles...and 4 times the potential problems...and you end up with the same amount of money at the end of the 2 weeks compared to filling it once.....and ovoid king all the hassles with the same results at the end....minus the hassles?

And I am being literal....if you can't find something you spend money on to give up so you can fill your tank with gas all at one time? Then there's a problem somewhere in giving up something what ever that is....which would be my first place to look or order to find out exactly what that problem is? Know what I means?

Two consecutive angry nights... part Ii

Submitted by Ifeelstupid on Sun, 12/18/2016 - 17:00

Hello JJamieson,

Thank you for taking time to reply. It's always good to know there are sympathetic readers out there; ADHD seems so isolating. When it's in play it doesn't matter which oc the partners have it.

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Welcome verytiredwife

Great List

Love and neural networks

I married my husband during a really rough period in my life

Balance

Out of Love

Out of Synch or Out of Love ? D.O.

Definitely out of love

DO and NON......

LOL You Made Me Laugh Zapp

Excellent thought, and definitely revelant...

What a gem of a present, Zapp

Sigh ........NON

Am reading you, J

Saying and doing

Thanks As Always

J

This one got a smile and an amen from me this morning:)

Happy Thanksgivings, C and everyone

Happy Thanksgivings, C and everyone

This Is Really Helpful ......NON

Hi VTW....

Two consecutive angry nights...

I Feel Your Pain......How Frustrating!!!

Two consecutive angry nights... part Ii