I have a story to tell but I'm not sure how to tell it? If I tell it from the ADHD perspective...it will sound as if I am making myself out to be the hero of my own story and that's not why I sharing my experience. Right now I'm exhausted, frustrated and angry. This is a cry for help and I'm the worst at asking for it. I apologize up front for my inability to do this correctly. Underneath those surface emotions...and I feel deeply hurt and troubled and fair amount of of resentment for so many reasons I don't know where or how to begin. Right now....I cannot seem to see my way outside of what just happened over the last 4 days away on vacation with my wife, her brother and some friends that invited themselves along to join us (so they said ) but actually did a hit and run on us that threw a bizarre twist into this story that has me scratching my head and at the same time....seeing my wife as a person that I cannot say I have much respect for what so ever...but even deeper than that....I cannot see any Love in her what so ever for me. I feel nothing inside but emptiness or I have no fond feelings what so ever for my wife at this moment in time. What ever feelings I was feeling for her before this time...have effectively died and I'm not seeing a lot of hope in them ever returning this time. What ever I end up feeling towards her after this last excursion....will never be what they were before we left.
What I just witnessed over the last few days was so appalling to me I really don't have much good things to say here . I'm sorry for that up front as well. The treatment I received from my wife has taken me aback to a point of taking serious inventory or how I might proceed from here on out it's that bad. At this point in time....I am choosing to remain silent and stay that way as I feel my wife deserved nothing on my account for anything she might say or need from me in the future. I feel the last few days with my wife has only proven to open my eyes to the true person that I believe my wife really is at the heart. Black and self serving with no regard for me what so ever. These as just my feelings at the moment. I'm not sure how I will feel once my wife has anything to say IF...and when...she says anything. My demeanor is so hostile right now...I don't blame her for staying away from me.
To start with....this is just what I am honestly feeling inside and my thoughts to go along with it. Here's the story with a little back ground to go along with it.
Experience and Back Ground: Advanced Coastal Cruising Certification: Able to safely act as skipper and crew of a sailing vessel about 30 to 50 feet in length in coastal and inland waters, in any conditions.
KNOWLEDGE
1. Describe true and apparent wind. 2. Describe sailing forces using diagrams. Graphically find the center of effort and center of resistance of sails and keel, respectively. 3. Describe with the aid of diagrams the causes of lee and weather helm and methods of correcting them. Include the reasons for preference of slight weather helm, sail selection (including full sails or reefed sails), mast position and mast rake. 4. Describe sail shapes and sail interactions as needed for different wind strengths and points of sail. Describe the effects on sail shape and sail interactions when adjusting the following: Luff tension, Outhaul Leech, line Boom vang, Backstay tension, Jib fairleads, Jib sheet tension, Mainsheet Traveller Downhaul / cunningham
Weather
5. Describe how to use a barometer and a thermometer independently and concurrently to assist in predicting weather. 6. Describe cirrus, cirrostratus, altocumulus, stratocumulus, cumulonimbus and cumulus clouds and the weather expected to be associated with each. 7. Describe local weather in relation to thermal winds and prevailing winds. 8. Describe three sources of weather information available in the United States.
Seamanship
9. Describe the proper selection of sails on a given boat for all weather conditions and give reasons for the selection made. 10. Describe appropriate heavy weather precautions and describe how they are carried out, including: Sail changes Use of special equipment such as safety harness and sea anchor Doubling up of gear Special checks in areas liable to chafe Stowage of equipment above and below decks Additional checks on bilge condition Special arrangements for towing dinghy/tender (if used) Problems of fatigue Selection of clothing The need of at least two on deck at all times 11. Describe the steps to be taken by skipper and crew for “heaving to” and “lying a-hull.” 12. Describe the methods for rafting at anchor and the possible risks with day and night rafting. 13. Describe how to prevent the dinghy/tender from riding up and bumping the vessel’s hull while anchored at night. 14. Describe procedures for securing a boat overnight with one anchor and stern made fast to a dock or shoreline. 15. Describe two methods of using a second anchor to reduce swinging. 16. Describe four different methods of recovering an anchor that is fouled on the bottom. 17. Describe when and how to use a trip line and an anchor buoy. 18. Describe when and how to set an anchor watch and the responsibilities of the crew on watch. 19. Describe how to: Prepare a towing bridle Pass a tow to another boat Get underway with a tow and which speeds to use Avoid fouling the propeller Avoid danger of towline parting under stress Make proper lookout arrangements during towing 20. List 8 of the 16 International Distress Signals found in Rule 37 of the USCG Navigation Rules and Regulations Handbook. 21. Describe how the boat should be handled and what actions should be taken when the following emergencies occur while under sail: The boat is dismasted The boat runs aground on a lee shore 22. Describe how the boat should be handled and what remedial action should be taken when the following emergencies occur while under power: The engine cooling water fails to flow The engine fails in a crowded anchorage The engine fails in a busy channel 23. State the fuel tank capacity and range of a typical 40-foot cruising sailboat and the factors that could affect its range. 24. State the water tank capacity of a typical 40-foot cruising sailboat and the minimum water requirement per person. 25. Describe the skipper’s responsibilities and action for the following common courtesies and customs: Permission to board Permission and entitlement to come alongside Permission and entitlement to cross adjacent boats when rafted Rights of first boat at an anchorage Keep clear of boats racing Offering assistance to yachtsmen in trouble. Flag etiquette: National flag, Courtesy flag, Burgee/house flag, Dipping flag Checking of boat’s appearance (shipshape & Bristol fashion, no lines or fenders dangling over side) Duty to provide assistance at sea 26. List the documents required and the procedures followed when leaving and entering U.S. territorial waters.
Engineering
27. Describe appropriate measures for the following common engine problems: Stoppage in fuel line Burned and defective points Fouled spark plug/injector problems Carburetor icing (spring and fall sailing) Unserviceable starter Electrolysis 28. Describe when and how to carry out an oil change. 29. Describe the minimum pre-season inspection and maintenance for the following: Hull (including underwater fittings, electrical systems, painting, antifouling)
Spars and rigging (including electrolysis) Sails Safety
30. Describe recommended permanent and temporary installation methods of grounding for lightning. 31. List factors to be considered before allowing anyone to go swimming while the boat is at anchor. 32. Describe the danger of overhead power lines. 33. Describe the uses, capabilities and limitations of a portable radar reflector. SKILLS Boat Handling Under Sail 34. Perform the duties of skipper and crew on a liveaboard coastal cruise of at least 48 hours, including night sailing. 35. As helmsman, demonstrate the proper techniques of beating, reaching, running, tacking, jibing, heading up, bearing away and luffing in approximately 20 knots of wind. 36. Work to weather to best advantage accounting for wind shifts, tides, current and local geography. 37. Sail a compass course within +/- 10 degrees with sails trimmed. 38. Demonstrate correct methods of towing a dinghy. 39. Demonstrate a person in water (Man Overboard or MOB) recovery maneuver while sailing at night. 40. Anchor, weigh anchor, pick up and cast off moorings while acting as helmsman and/or crew. 41. Demonstrate how to take a sounding using two different methods. 42. Stand a navigation watch during a passage of at least 20 miles by night and 20 miles by day and demonstrate all of the skills elements in ASA 105, Coastal Navigation. 43. Demonstrate correct procedures for hoisting, setting, trimming, jibing, dousing and packing a spinnaker.
Unless you have any experience with boating specifically sail boats....some of these terms are not going to make any sense to you what so ever. There are terms here that you might know in context or from the definition alone....but all of these terms have one thing in common. They are specific terms to mean ONE and only ONE thing each. There is no interpretation and no alternative meaning. The reason for this is simple. So there can no confusion what so ever in any command of request made by any member on a maritime vessel at any given moment. The language is clear, and unambiguous and cannot be interpreted any other way to mean anything outside of each terms ONE meaning. The reason for this is also simple to understand. So people don't get killed.
This is the certification that I have achieved through years of training and advancement plus the experience that goes along with it. My first sailboat was an International 505...which is an International class racing shell. It is the Ferrari of racing shells and requires a two man crew with the crew man on a wire outboard the gunwhale for stability in order to sail one. That's a fancy way of saying...the the other guy who's not driving the boat...is fitted with a diaper (or harness) and is attached by a wire cable attached to the mast so he/she can hang all the way out over the water while still standing on the edge or the the side of the boat...so the the whole things doesn't flip over due to the extremely large sail and the force it exerts on the boat which would pull the boat it right into the water without that kind of counter weight to hold it upright.
By the time I ended up selling my boat....I had learned how to sail it by myself to the point where I could drive her and hang out the side and do the job of two people all by myself whole still retaining completely control and not ever go over which is a trick to do all by yourself. It was kind of like the equivalent to riding and over sized sailboard but a whole lot cooler! lol
At just under 16' long....it was the most fun to be had without a motor...at least for a sailboat that is:) But that was 36 years ago. Since then....I've driven and crewed (both) over 30 different kinds of sailboats ranging anywhere from 12' long up to 36'....including skippering a 58 foot twin diesel engined (twin screw) motor yacht in the San Juan Islands for an entire week. And as the final feather in my cap...once, had the opportunity to Sail (at one time)...the fastest sail boat ever made which still is being used in Hawaii as a tourist pleasure boat that takes visitors out into the open ocean for scenic pleasure rides. I was aboard one of these trips and after chatting with the skipper about boats long enough...he offered me the wheel and let me take his commercial craft into harbor up to the last stages of the trip. This is a big no-no in terms of going strictly by the book...but I guess he felt confident enough to allow the courtesy since he could see my interest and my knowledge of sailing. That is.....he felt confident enough in me...just from our discussion an nothing else but my word to go on.
So when my wife and I planned a trip on a 55 ft houseboat (barge LOL )....I had little fear in my ability to handle this in comparison to every other craft I owned personally and skippered which includes: (owned) 16" Zodiac inflatable (60horse engine), Cal 26' , Thistle, the 505 and my current boat which is an old 60's Chrysler speed boat that I have just for fishing and being out on the water occasionally since my days as a avid sailor and boating person are mostly a thing of my past.
Since I was the only person with any experience with boating what so ever....I volunteered to skipper the boat and take on all the responsibilities that go along with it. I'll let my credentials speak for themselves. And even during my Captains orientation....the owner of the rental outfit stopped at one point and said he could forgo the entire orientation as long as I signed a waver stating that I had the experience that I had and agreed to abide by all the by-laws that he could clearly see in a matter of 5 minutes...that I knew as much if not more than he did about them. This was at an inland reservoir that posed no significant hazards or technical experience aside from only two: wind and a shore line with beach landing since the entire reservoir was surrounded by only large boulders and rocks. The only real danger that existed by itself...was in the process of docking and mooring for the night which required a number of the skills listed in my certification above.
For me to do this....was no problem what so ever......with the only caveat being....I had some help in doing anything that would require me from leaving the helm while the boat was still under power. That means....I could not do this by myself without a great deal of difficulty...but it also means....that I was the only one on board with the knowledge and ability to do so which means....anyone on board at any time...was my personal and legally responsibility both for their safety...and for any damage done to the vessel under my command. This...is the agreement I signed and waved all other rights by taking over the responsibility as Captain for 4 days ...of a huge barge of a boat with an RV stuck on top of it. lol
I'll come back and finish...since I'm just too tired to continue right now but I wanted to get a start here while my thoughts were still fresh in my mind........
I'm back, and cannot sleep. I am so disturbed by the last 4 days I have yet to find any peace or resolution to it. The only thing that I feel compelled to do right now is just put it out there and let things lay.
Getting right to it. We had been under way for only a short while when I decided to take the time to do what is formally called making a "plan"...which entails going over safety and duty responsibilities of everyone aboard. And in case anyone was wondering.....no, I had to delusions that this was just an informal pleasure trip on vacation and I have no delusions of Grandeur calling myself the Captain. It's just a word and I was not using it at the time anyway. My main concern...was simply going over all the things that I had just talked about with the guy renting us the boat...and needed to assessing some duties at specific times so help me do what I needed to do in case there was a problem. More than anything....I needed to give some basic instructions to my wife and brother about what to do...and what not do to....so we would not run into any problems. I got no more than 3 sentences out before I started receiving flack and opposition mainly from my wife. I also had no illusions on the skill level and knowledge that either one of them had about boating and was not about to give an impromptu course of boating of any kind. Mainly...it was made clear to me...that any damage done to the boat was out of our pockets and there were these two possible scenarios where that might occur: wind, waves and rocks. Not a good combination. The second I said the word Captain...my wife had a melt down and refused to take orders, suggestions or even a recommendation from me what so ever. I never even got the opportunity to say I needed help along the way and needed them to listen so they would understand what I needed from them. The entire conversation started with me saying..."normally....I would have done this on shore before we set off,....but we were all wanting to get under way and I don't feel the need to do the formal "Captains Briefing" with you guys." That's all it took. My wife immediately dismissed me and then refused to acknowledge me. To the point....that when I said..."all I need it a yes...or no...from either one of you that you heard me and that I said it." In jest....I even said...'an aye yie Capt'n will do." That's when my wife blew up and refused...adamantly to listen or hear one more word I had to say. She kept referring to her brother as if it was he who was doing the talking as she was thinking and talking for him.
She even tried to bring him in on her refusal as if he had said anything which...in her brothers defense. He sat quietly and didn't say a word to the contrary but it was made very clear to me...that he wasn't listening either. Then she said."you're only doing this because my brother is here"...which I replied..."if your brother wasn't here....I'd have a lot more to say to you about this but clearly....what I have to say is of no interest to either one of you so as the signer on the dotted line....I guess I'm on my own then for this trip. Just be forewarned....if something goes wrong and you haven't allowed me to do what I agreed to up front by going over this with you.....there will be Hell to pay and I won't soon be forgetting it. That and any fines or money owed for damages due to your incompetents." Later....after the events happened the way they did....her brother in private told me..."I'm not going to participate with anything that has to do with confronting my sister on anything." Clearly....he had given up long ago with trying to win against her and what she wanted and did not want to jeopardize their relationship and needed the connection they had more than he needed a problem between the two of them.
In a moment of clarity.....I suddenly saw the dynamic as clear as a bell. "Do what I say...or pay the consequences. I'll cut you off and disown you if you try and fight with me over anything. I'm the boss...and I'm the one in charge and "no one messes with "The Jesus." (from the movie the big Labowski with John Turturo as "Jesus"....the pedophile bowler with an Ego as big a Texas.) This as I see it....is who my wife really is. A Fucked Up perversion...of a real human being. So insecure and helpless...that she'll hold her own brother hostage emotionally at his expense due to her own dysfunction and inability to be a kind and forgiving person. I believe at this time....this has been a Gigantic lie that she has been selling. There is only one kind of person who does this in my book and my intuition is telling me exactly what kind of person that really is......a Fucked Up perversion of anything moral or decent who doesn't deserve the time of day if she were to stop and ask for it from a stranger on the street.
In the course of our time on board our beautiful house boat...I for one enjoyed myself and the boat we ended up with...(as it was...I've only been on one other but this one beat all when it came to comfort and amenities: 2 bath 1w/shower, generator, microwave, stove/range, air conditioning and heat, sleeps 12, 825 sq ft of deck inside and out, inboard motor and an additional 4oo sq ft on the upper deck which was a flat top roof for sun bathing or fishing.)
Our main focus was on fishing since her brother was into it and I enjoy it as well. The problem with that being....I can't fish and drive the boat at the same time or do anything for that matter if someone does not come to help me from time to time. This had not occurred to my wife until I had been up front driving the boat and her brother actually said something. This I assumed would be no problem as in all the years I've been doing this kind of thing....I have never once run into the problem that I ran into this time with my wife of all people. I cannot tell you the level of disrespect and contempt I am feeling for her...not as my wife....but as a human being.... right at this very moment. As I said....she cut me off at the knees within the first 15 minutes and then later on the way home...had the nerve to actually complain to me about my behavior as if I had done something wrong.
As it was....her brother as I have now come to understand....will do or say anything to not get on her bad side. And any one on her bad side is automatically excluded from having anything good said about them. As I lay there last night trying to sleep and they were there talking together thinking I couldn't hear them.....my wife complained up and down about me falling asleep so they could not play cards like we had planned. The reason for this was....that as soon as I sat down for the first time that day....I immediately fell asleep from being so tired and physically beat from having to attend to everyone none stop without a break for the past three days. That included making all the decisions and fighting off a group of retarded people who all wanted something different and had shit in their ears all at the same time. They were like a group of baby birds squawking at me like I was their Mama with a worm in my mouth!! Unbelievable!! As I saw this....this was a new low level in stupidity and ignorance.
And because her brother was in on this too out of his own deep insecurity and having no balls.....I was getting snide remarks thrown my way by him at times calling me
"Popeye the sail'in man." If I could have...and somehow gotten away with it....I had a mind to accidently shove both my wife and my brother overboard and drive off pretending I didn't notice them fading into the distance while sitting in the middle of the reservoir together. Trust me.....it crossed my mind once or twice for a brief moment or two...or three...or four.
But I was so glad that I did nothing but what I was suppose to do. Make sure everyone was safe and make sure the boat was in order and attend to all the duties I had which were required by not only the rental agency....but by the book of rules set down by the US Coast Guard and Navy regulations that govern all maritime craft of any kind. This is what I was doing the entire time we were out....by the book.....to the letter...except for one important thing. I took on all the responsibility for everything in light of the lack of cooperation and trust that I had in what I was seeing but said not one word after my wife made it clear what she refused to do anything she didn't feel like she should have to do which amounted to nothing. As she saw it....the same as at home...if she cleaned and picked things up...that was enough. Someone else will magically make everything else happen with her help or not. I feel the blood pressure rising in my head right now just mentioning this now once again. Did I forget to mention the fact....that I have ADHD? I can't remember so I'll make sure I do at least once here?
So here's what I saw and I silently took note of what was happening. This all lead up to the coup de grace and the icing on the cake.
My wife's friends(mine only by association with my wife) who invited herself to come join us....told my wife that they..."might make it" and they were not sure one way or the other. On the second day...they arrive along side the boat with a wave runner they had rented. In a magic moment or brilliance on their part....they just added a second craft and two more people who had no idea what they were doing. The first hour they were there....involved going back to the marina to get fenders (bumpers) so they could tie the wave runner to the side of the boat. This by the way...was the wrong way to go about it which was why the rental people did not give them any to start with. But did anyone ask me? Of course not. That would be what a more intelligent person might do and these two cannot be counted in that department. My wife's friend encouraged me to go with her husband to keep him company while she sat and chatted with my wife since she had just arrived. The thing with these two it seems....that when ever we get together with them....my wife and her go off and talk separately which leaves me with the husband alone to talk about what ever we talk about together.
He's a decent guy from the outside looking in..... but get this.........when I asked "how's it going "....the polite none specific thing to say as a greeting..... he slows the wave runner down which I was now on the back of...and tells me his daughter had just died by suicide only 3 days ago ( this last Saturday) which was why they didn't know if they were coming or not. But here's the problem with that story as I sat there and heard it again for the second time he's told me that same story....in the same words....and it was Saturday the last time he told me which was almost a year ago now? What's wrong with this picture? I won't keep you hanging....he forgot he told me that once before to gain my sympathy and he clearly isn't clever enough to think up a new one or that I might remember this bit of personal trivia or who;s he's told that to? I'm sure his daughter did commit suicide at one point in time (actually...maybe? Even if he has/had one. The real question that remains is when since last Saturday was definitely not when she did? If she even exists? At least if you're going to lie....you should remember who you told the story too especially with someone like me who has a very accurate memory of such things. That DeJaVou feeling was making me crawl outside of my skin it was so bad!!!
So now....here I am.....I've got people in the back ( 55 ft boat remember?) screaming all kinds of things none of which tell me anything.....but mostly about the fish that are being caught and slowing down because I'm trolling too fast. In the mean time.....I've got stiff side wind and waves pushing into a wall of rocks not 15 feet from the shore.....and I look over and see my wife's friends shadowing me right along side the boat in the wave runner.....in between the big boat and the rocks like this is something you do....(looking at me inside driving like she is running herd on a bunch of cattle and we're both just crus'in down the the cattle trail together side by side while no more than 8 feet behind her is jagged rocks just begging her to be crushed against if I can't keep the boat from sliding sideways into her and into the rocks at the same time? When they were handing out the brains....she thought they said "Trains" and told them she didn't want any!!! OMFG!!
So...now I'm pointing forward in a rather obvious direction meaning.....GO FOREWARD!!!! Like NOW!!!! Which she waves at me and continues on and around the other side of the boat. In a moment...my wife comes up to me and tells me to slow down since her friend is tired and wants to board the boat....while we're moving....while we're up next to rocks...and on the same side they had decided...was the best side to do this on. The ones with the rocks only feet away....while other people are fishing from the back end right where she wants to come on board right then!!! LOL
I told myself....I was just going to let what ever happen...happen and everyone would figure it out once it did but this was just beyond belief!!! I told my wife that her friend needing aboard the boat was not more important than getting her killed in the process. This seems to register kind of....but not really since my wife had already decided not to listen to what Popeye had to say. I was seething I was so angry at this point but I said nothing. Nothing that is until her friend was on board and mentioned how difficult it was to board the boat while moving as fast I was. And the only reason for that was to keep the entire boat from wrecking on the rocks we were fishing near which was producing a lot of fish in a short period of time.
When my wife said something in support of her friend.....I said...."I want nothing from you....but don't ask ONE thing from me at anything right now....PERIOD!!!" Which her friend over heard in which my wife responded..."it's always something with him."
I cannot tell you .....the lack of all common sense and the utter stupidity that this displayed said to me and the utter contempt I felt for everyone at that moment but especially...for my wife.....who appears to me as possible the dumbest person I have personally had the misfortune of meeting since I saw her in this context in a situation where human life was at stake and she did nothing to alter her normal level of complete incomprehensibility and lack of all personal responsibility to a whole new level that exceeds anything to date so far. It still has me shaking from witnessing this...and me being...the only voice of reason any where in sight!!
So now....that same night...these two are in the bunks next to my wife and I....and her friend won't shut up and go to sleep. No problem for me since I can sleep anywhere...any time in almost any position...and that kind of quiet chattering kept me awake for 5 minutes at the very most. I slept soundly all night and got a good nights rest. In the morning...my wife complained that she was up all night since her friend never went to sleep and was up and down all night and whispering to her husband none stop. Later....her friend mentioned to my wife in passing in a kind of sort of admission....that she was worried since she heard noises coming from under the boat and thought the lines attached to the boat were going to come loose and we would drift off while she was asleep and needed to keep checking to see if we were still tied securely. Let me tell you.....these lines were wrapped around boulders that weighed twice that of the boat and there were two coming from either side and the boat was pinned in forward with the wind at our backs. (as it should be) Earlier that evening....one of the boat rental hands was passing by in a service boat and stopped to check out our moorage spot. In a quick look see since he thought it looked like a really good spot for himself personally later on as he said it...he mentions that we had done a really good job of getting the boat situated and secured really well. I'm sorry to say it this way....but I didn't need him to tell me that..... but as it turned out....this only proved to be a valuable look see for what was next to come.
So when these two took off only a while later to go home from their complete disruption and intrusion in the way they went about it...(which required even more work for me which I was not given the chance to say word one to ahead of time)....I told my wife about the story of the suicide and she told me why his wife was up all night. I said..."it's funny...she was worried that the ropes were tied tight enough for the boat to stay still enough not to worry all night about it....but had no clue that she was in between a multi ton vessal and boulders as big as a house and wanted to board while moving (which she did) because she was too tired to wait. These two took off to go tooling around in the wave runner....without saying anything while people were fishing at the same time. This was not only retarded....but dangerous as Hell !! And yet...she was worried that the boat would float away in the night with no real apparent way for that even to happen and kept both my wife and her husband up all night from the worry this created in her...and now I'm sitting there pointing this out and my wife is looking at me like this is somehow hard to figure out just what was the problem as I was saying this? Unbelievable!!! If I hadn't been there and witnessed this all....I wouldn't believe it either? And of course....my wife made sure I said nothing...by nipping that one in the bud right away. Be careful what you ask for....sometimes....you'll get it....and we did..that very same day.
By this time...I was speaking up and telling both my wife and brother that I needed some help. I did this in a tone that was no longer sounding agreeable to anything they wanted no matter what it was. I realized that I was FUCKED not matters what I did...so, when you got nothing to lose....it's easy to be an asshole with a clear conscience which at that point...a clear conscience was the last thing on my mind and didn't give a rip what anyone thought about me or what i was doing and I was not about to give anyone the choice....Period!!!
This caused both my brother in law and my wife to go to the opposite end of the boat...the stern...while I stayed up front and spotted a place to stay for the night. It was a buoy up ahead that was put there by the state which is the easiest way to moor for the night since you know without question....it will not go anywhere under any conditions what so ever. The other aspect about attaching yourself to a buoy like this...is all you have to do is clip the end of a carabineer attached to a line on the bow and your done. It doesn't get any easier than that. But in this one situation as i tried to explain to my wife and brother in law ahead of time as I attempted to do....I needed someone to stand out on the bow and just hook the carabineer to a chain on the buoy while I steadied the boat. I asked her brother for assistance since my wife had already refused to help me before when I tried to explain how to do it which she would have no part in. I figured....hooking carabineer to a chain doesn't require any special instructions unless you've never done that before in your life. Her brother said not problem and hooked us up so I could get my first real break or rest and relaxation of any kind since we had been there. It was the first opportunity I had to take any pictures and the scenery was breathtaking. I had just sat down to relax and take some shots when I heard her brother yell something that I didn't understand? What the Fuck is it now God Damn it!! I get from my recliner chair and start heading back to where my brother in law was....and immediately see we're drifting side ways right onto a point while her brother is in a panic and yelling.....we getting near the rocks!! Duh....you stupid mother Fucker!!! The question is....HOW can we be drifting...if you connected us to the buoy to dumb ass Fucktard???? Jesus Fucking Christ !!!! (forgive Lord for my cursed mouth!! lol )
So now....good ole Popeye has got a situation. The boat has drifted right onto a a windward point...which is to say....the wind has got us pinned up against the rocks and we're up shits creek without a paddle. I put the boat in gear for a quick burst to get us off the rocks while hearing and loud grinding sound of metal against rock and scraping the metal hull of the one pontoon it's entire 55ft length while my wife's brother is screaming ..."rocks!!! rocks!!"(DUH!) Which only goes to show how bad a situation like this can be in under 5 minutes.
In the mean time....my wife is looking at me and yelling at her brother asking him if he needs any help? Yeah...I'd say so....right into the water and you along with him!!! lol
So now....the boat comes to rest and is stuck on some rocks but off the point so we can get clear now. Or so I thought. I tried everything to get us loose but we were stuck but there's a new problem. I can feel any power getting to the prop and I immediately suspect we've hit the prop on some rocks. I ask her bother if the prop is moving and he says says. ....no wait.... then he says no...it's not moving. Okay....now we need to get some help. Her brother did have his cell phone with us and he was able to get an outside line to call for help. I told the people where we were and told them the situation and what I was afraid of as far as the the prop was concerned. The owner came down and found us after a 1/2 hour or so...and he ended up pulling us off the rocks and back out where we were free to move again. He got on board...started it up...and everything was working as it should and the prop was completely untouched. The owner himself was a really low key guy and this didn't not phase him in the least. The only thing he said was that we were lucky it wasn't the prop since that would have been at least $2,500 to dry dock the boat and fix the damage out of my pocket since I'm the one who signed the dotted line which of course...my wife was too busy at the moment to hear about such things. It was then that my brother in law spoke up and said it was his fault for not making sure the line was secured and he didn't double check to make sure it was hooked on correctly. Kudos to my brother in law for coming clean on that one and as it turned out....and we were back on our way with no apparent damage to the boat. Thank God!!!
And as we were heading out of that windy area to find a more sheltered spot for the night.....my wife says to the three of us.." Gee....it was lucky M had his phone with him....who knows what would have happened if M hadn't remembered his phone."
And then yesterday afternoon on the way home.....my wife wasn't speaking to me and appeared in her usual state of silent treatment when something is up her butt....I told her this was one of those times when I had no idea what she was upset about and she was going to need to tell me so I could at least know why she was angry.....she said it was because I told my wife to shut up and listen to me for a different moment of stupidity first thing in the morning..."just like the other day at the beginning of our trip when you were trying to give your "Captains Speil" to us and you were the same way back then which I've been angry with you about the entire time!!!" That and she mentioned me passing out early (again) and ruining the card game planned for the previous evening.
I've got to say this from the perspective...not as someone with ADHD and not about my wife saying she has some kind of disorder in some psychological explanation for this. And as much and I have honestly said that I am not usually in any competition that requires me to say something like this....but from all the stories I've read so far on this forum about the ADHD spouses in denial and all the dumb ass things that they've done.......this wins.... hands down!!!!!
As possibly....no wait..... IS the stupidest Mother Fucking thing I have ever had the displeasure of witnessing and experiencing in my entire life!!!! ( I'm not laughing at the moment)
This should get some acknowledgement or consideration for those of us who have ADHD (ATTENTION DEFICIENT DISORDER)..... at the very least...... for not being the dumbest Mother Fuckers on the planet as a constellation. At the very least!!!
Where I go with from here....I have no idea but like I said.....this is my way of crying for help from running out of insights or perspectives and I have no way to talk myself out of this one for the time being. I apologize profusely for the inappropriateness of my language which is really just expressing the depth of how strongly I feel the anger and resentment towards my wife at this very moment. This time....I'm having a very difficult time seeing anything differently in how I see my wife and I'm not seeing that change unless she comes up big with a real confession and admission of her actions and a heart felt REAL apology which I'm not holding my breath on. A specific apology in connection to the cause and effect of her actions....specifically!! Nothing less....will be accepted at this point in time.
What I do know for sure and this is without any doubt in my mind what so ever. My wife will never hear this story and how I really feel towards her but I will be thinking it and feeling it...every time she open her mouth and make even the slightest hint of criticism or complaint lodged towards me in any way. Anything she might say to me in direct connection to my ADHD symptoms will be falling on deaf ears and I will go on about my business as if nothing ever happened. This is the line in the sand...there is no going back from.
What she will get....is exactly what she puts in.......nothing. I will be courteous, superficial and kind as needed....and throw everything she says right into the toilet and ignore it just as fast if comes out of her mouth. I wll not fight, argue, complain or criticize and lower myself to her level her. I will placate and patronize until the cows come home but have no itention in doing anything she requests of me...unless I'm in the mood or it's convenient for me from here on out which the way I'm feeling right now...may be a very, very long time. I have more self respect and Love for myself to do anything but that as my response.
I just can't allow myself to respect and trust this level of stupidity..... especially when other peoples lives are at stake.,...it's where I draw the line.
J
o
Glad you're posting
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
I'm down to about one post every one to three days on the site, due to things going on offline J. But know that I read the forum, and read what you write.
I had been wondering if something was up, for you. I'm glad you're using the site this way. That's one thing this forum is for. Don't worry about venting...lol we all do that sooner or later.
Holding you in my thoughts, friend.
Now
Edited to add: J, I read the whole story. What anxiety. What came across was that you tried DAMN HARD the whole time... Denial, yes and clueless. And lack of responsibility... You can see how people through ignorance of what they're dealing with drown in lakes and fall off cliffs on vacations. I don't know how you take care of yourself when you're angry, J but if it were me I'd be sick of the bunch for awhile, and get some space. Do what you do for yourself when you're angry OK... Pick up thinking about things later... hard to have clarity of mind when so upset.... Sorry that your wife made that stink and that things went that way.
N
Man that was a tough one!
Submitted by c ur self on
I can't remember a vacation w/ my wife that after it was over, that I wasn't promising myself that that was it, I'm done, never again!...But, I'm afraid your story top's even most of our dysfunction....I can offer you the advice I give myself after the fact each time....Which I'm planning on doing before we go (if we're blessed to have time away again) from now on....
There or many things I can't do anything about...like her over packing, and putting bags of junk mail under her feet, most always taking an hour or two longer to leave than planned. etc...But, I want spend my money until we have a pre-vacation meeting where we discuss, agree and sign off on specific items and behaviors....
After 8 years, I have a mental list....A vacation in my opinion should be about enjoyment....No matter if it's about relaxation or what ever the common purpose is....That's what will have to happen before I move a step again....A Common Purpose will have to be identified and agreed upon....That way if the priority isn't the same for each of us, we can identify it before we make the mistake of heading off blindly into chaos, and spending money for the opportunity to do so.....
Assumptions..." It is useless to attempt to reason a person out of a thing that they were never reasoned into"....Jonathan Swift....
Hard times and disagreements will always be part of life, especially w/ our different views of life....But, J, I could throw up, when I think of how much money I've spent to just end up being miserable...
She just came home from a trip w/ her sister's and her two adult Son's....I didn't go....I made the trip last year, and all I was, was dead weight, and a source of conflict if I had any ideas concerning what to do at any point....So my presents was just an hindrance to her hyper focus, and an ugly reminder for her that she has a husband....Don't get me wrong, it's who she is, I accepted it....That's why I didn't go....She was happy to see me when she arrived home and I was happy to see her.....
A man has got to know his limitations!!! I'm working on it.....
C
C...Coming Back Here With Some New Info
Submitted by kellyj on
She just came home from a trip w/ her sister's and her two adult Son's....I didn't go....I made the trip last year, and all I was, was dead weight, and a source of conflict if I had any ideas concerning what to do at any point....So my presents was just an hindrance to her hyper focus, and an ugly reminder for her that she has a husband....
C...have you noticed....that when your wife is with her sisters or two son's....suddenly, you become invisible? I don't want to discount your wife's ADHD or the hyper focus you mentioned since those are always there. (the physical symptoms). Being invisible or that dead weight and source of conflict I think....exists because you want something for yourself in these moments. She may be hyper focusing on something....but what is the question?
I can sum this up with what actually came out of a talk my wife and I had just last night in reference to what happened on our boating trip and specifically....why I was so angry. And no.....I wasn't actually thinking I was going to get any kind of apology out of it. More than anything...I was focused on trying to find out specifically....what the problem was with my wife right from the start? When ever my wife and I get together with her brother....my wife will start to get markedly hostile towards me.
If you want to see how bad co-dependence can get in a family situation? In a nut shell.....this is basically what my wife told me which is exactly what it looked and felt like yet no one was actually saying anything directly to me as to WHY this happened? This is how completely wrong...a situation can be....if the people involved are so completely lost in what they are all thinking about each other and reading into a situation things...that simply are not happening?
Here's the symptoms that keep happening every time my wife and brother get together with me there at the same time.
1) Triangulation -everyone is speaking and thinking for someone else to a third party...instead of saying it to the person directly. Parents do this for their children since they don't have the capacity to speak or stand up for themselves Adults doing this for another adult is?????????
2) Assuming that the other person needs something.....that they don't need and then proceeding accordingly as if they asked for it even though they didn't
3) No one is asking anything....but everyone is acting unilaterally all at the same time.
4) Suddenly....the rules have all changed and there are instantly a whole new set of rules and boundaries that no one except those in the know...know what they are. In this case....only the ones in that family but no one else?
5) You...as an outsider...are viewed with suspicion if you don't like exactly the same things that everyone else likes....as if....there is something wrong with you for likely anything different than they do.
6) People start doing things and making decisions for you....without asking or inquiring first to even know that in the first place...yet 9.9 times out of 10....they are consistently wrong?
7) NO....is never an acceptable answer and even if you are asked and say NO... asking is kind of irrelevant....they're going to do it anyway. The only thing asking does...is at least give you the heads up they're doing it vs being a complete surprise after the fact. Asking questions...is actually telling you this is what is happening without actually saying it. lol
8) Making decisions for you an assuming they know? As if....this is somehow helping you????
Another really good example of what I'm saying: My wife's friend and her husband brought some food along with them to contribute. Nothing wrong with that....except suddenly....I'm standing there right after I almost had a melt down with the same woman needing to come on board while we're moving and my brother in law is still fishing ( this violated about 10 different procedural rules at the same time ).... and we were still right up along those same rocks.....and now this same woman is standing there with a cooked Bratwurst in her hand asking me if I want Mustard on my Bratwurst or not?
First off....I wasn't hungry? My stomach was in a knot from only a short while ago from almost having a coronary! lol
Second off.....if I was, I might not want a Bratwurst which I actually didn't since we'd already had them the day before?
Third....I was kind of busy right at that moment...you know....needing both hands to steer and control the throttle....and food was the last thing on my mind?
Fourth....what's this fixation with the Bratwurst? It was the second time she tried to cook them but the first time we stopped her (said NO) and told her we just ate had our own that we brought and told her that already?
Fifth....The only choice I was given in all of this....was Mustard or Not? LOL
What are we here....a bunch of pre-schoolers where the time of day you eat and what you eat is already predetermined for you? This is the kind of choice that is left up to a pre-school kid and the teacher decides when, where and how for everything they do. That includes over writing "NO"....which a pre-school kid is likely to say?
And you wonder why I was a little miffed at this woman after she almost got herself killed by doing the same thing: Not asking for permission. Deciding how, when, where and what time she was going off on the wave runner without asking if that would be Okay first? I had no idea she was even off the boat until I looked over and saw her there?? You can imagine the shock I had when I looked over and saw her riding along side in the worst place she could possibly be and was in immanent danger for her life? And then my wife coming in and telling me to slow down so she can get back on the boat right then?
And now....she's standing there treating me like a pre-school kid with a hot dog on a paper plate that I didn't want...and asking me if I want Mustard or not? Like I need help putting Mustard on a Hot dog in the first place??? And how could she know how much or little I like? Or maybe....I like relish on my Hot Dog and no Mustard at all?
Or maybe....I don't want a freaking Hot Dog in the first place!!! lol
You've got to consider one thing here. I don't have kids. The last time I had someone do anything like this was close to 40 years ago when I was still living at home with my own mother?? And even then I didn't like it past about 7 years old? Remembering the first time I wanted to try Onion Rings and my mother said...."Oh...you won't like those." YES!!! I DID!! AND STILL DO!!! I love Onion Rings from that first bite I had despite what my mother said. TO THIS DAY!!! Like...WTF??? LOL
Anyway...in a nut shell....what I finally got out of my wife as to why I was sooo disrespectful when I first tried to tell her and my brother in the law the rules of the road so to speak? It had nothing to do with my wife. My wife was thinking for her brother and was being overly protective of his feelings since as she put it....I was coming across like some kind of authority figure as if to say....that her brother would be somehow offended by that?
Even though....my brother in law had been in the Marines, and told me later that he was not annoyed by that at all. How I came across to him...didn't offend him at all? Who I was offending....was my wife in sounding that way....but instead of saying that...she used her brother as the excuse instead. That's when her brother said...."I'm not going to fight my sister on anything she wasn't since that will only cause a fight. Personally...I don't care either way."
And as she told me this last night....she said..."I have to stand up for my brother...because he won't stand up for himself."
The problem...is between her brother and herself and the complete dysfunction of an older sister....who's still in the business of trying to protect her little brother...from the people in the real abusers in their childhood that she couldn't do back then. My wife is racked with guilt...for not being able to protect him when they were little kids and is still trying to it....every time they get together. She was made responsible for him as a child...and is still playing that role...every time they get together even though her brother...not only doesn't want her to do this....he's afraid to stand up to her and say so because NO...is not an acceptable answer and will only cause a fight between them.
I far as I can see this.....the only choice my brother in law has is whether he wants Mustard on his Hot Dog or not? Same difference...exactly.
I think you are wise to decide when and where you want to fight this battle C. For me....the only thing that matters...is that my wife can see me for who I am...and not some threat to her purpose in life? I'd rather fight this battle...than settle or get plugged into role in someone else's past play where I don't belong..... but everyone has to make those decisions for themselves I guess?
What I did really learn here.....is that I need to fit into that play....without compromising myself at the same time. I'm not the lightest touch when it comes to these things and that's really just needing to learn something that I haven't had much experience in. This is what I told my wife...without the rest of what I just told you which is not important or even welcome on my wife's side of this right now. She still insists...that the delivery of how I speak...is more important than the content.
This is the most important thing I learned from this experience...I was absolutely right in saying it before hand and my wife just confirmed it to me last night.
"Regardless of whether the burning roof above them is about to come crashing down on top of their head!! How you tell them to leave the building...is more important than simply getting out there!! This is absolutely true...I just experienced this in real time! "
My wife cannot see her way outside of this enough...to simply tell me....that she feels dismissed, over written and disrespected the same as when she was as a child under similar conditions...and she is overly sensitive to anything that sounds like that same authority figure who is doing the same thing now to her now......which makes her feel disrespected in her skewed perception from that experience she had.
The real problem comes...when I somehow get in between the two of them since she's taking on that role for her brother still ......as well and keeping him right where he was and holding him there in her mind which just plain isn't happening. She's still answering to her mother....which was the cause for this back then....but not now. I really think....any time someone stands up to my wife in any confrontational way...she's fighting and engaging the ghost of her mother...and not anyone else including me C.
J
Exactly J...
Submitted by c ur self on
Your points 1-7 are dead on....It's dysfunction and I don't want to be part of it....It only creates chaos and conflict....
A mind that assumes that my self entertainment ideas (or any thing for that matter) should be right for everyone. So I'm going to project them on you, and you will always be wrong to question it.....Is a mind I want to get far away from...
Also a family who has learned enabling dependency, (because it was just easier than facing the controlling mind, and speaking truth to them) only creates influence's on one another that is dysfunctional....My wife pushed her children when they were young into thrill seeking, for her own self gratification and to fill that lust inside herself. And now she feels like at 54, she has to match them (compete) at everything, and stay right up under them every second....It too much for me....Like I said; we will discuss it in a pre-planning session from now on....
C
What Can Be Learned Here?
Submitted by kellyj on
Thanks C and NON for your input.....and yes.....it felt good just to get it all out no matter how I said it. I did have a chance to broach this with my wife (in part) and tell her how upset I was. What I got from that, was what I always get. Her getting defensive and nothing really coming of it except a fight. I really didn't expect anything different but I did learn a great deal from this that tells me a lot more than I knew before hand. As I said it....I wasn't sure how I would feel once things settled down but I knew it would be different than how I felt when I was tired, frustrated and angry on many different levels.
Now...I so much appreciate being able to let go and just get it all out. Thanks for supporting me on that. This even came up in our conversation (later) when my wife mentioned me spending time writing here. As she saw it, I was spending time complaining to a bunch of strangers about her and telling them how bad she was. Normally, this is not what I do here but it was what I was doing in the venting and just telling my side of the story. What is true for my wife however, is not true for me and I think this is typically....a male..female tendency either to do this with friends or people you know well...or not. I can only speak for most men I know....but typically speaking...if you want to clear the room of a bunch of men sitting together.....all you'd need to do is start talking about your feelings and deep emotions and the room would be empty in short order!! lol
I'm no different in that respect...but it doesn't mean that holding it all in good for you either especially since...it will come out at point time and usually with the person that is involved in what you are venting about and that usually does not go well all things considered.lol
What was great....was to go back and here myself think and read what I had to say. This situation that I found myself in....was a really great crucible to look at and apply in almost any other situation involving a group of people who are all just doing their own thing at the same time with no particular plan or organized way of integrating it all together at the same time but one person is usually left....holding the bag so to speak. If this isn't what the main problem being discussed here on this forum...I don't know what else is?
I think I'm pretty good at seeing things objectively and I've wondered why that is? I was pretty oppositional as a kid....but never in the moment. That's telling. I was more passive aggressive than oppositional and that also is really telling to me? My passive aggressiveness was always after the fact and someone who is more oppositional and defiant...is doing it right then and there...in the moment when it's happening?
If I learned anything from this experience with my wife and her brother.,...is they are both oppositional defiant. Straight up. The difference between the two of them however....is my wife "pushes"...and my brother in law doesn't? It's that "pushy"...bossy"...."naggy" component that is the thing that sets me off the most. But here's the catch.....that's really just hitting against the same thing that sets my wife off too? See the problem?
This is exactly what my T has mentioned to us both......competing sensitives yet......I would not call myself oppositional or overly sensitive to this. More resistant...and less likely to go along when things get too bad but not say anything which is exactly what I did. All things considered....it was the only choice I had at the moment.
The one thing I don't do...is panic. Panic and hesitation are killers every time in a situation that requires you to think on your feet and know what to do exactly.....when you need to do it. That just comes from experience, training and lots of practice which was the one thing I had....that no one else did in this one situation. I didn't expect anyone to know anything....what I expected was them to defer to me and not panic themselves and this was my only miscalculation!! lol OMG! lol
The reality of this adventure....really taught me a lot about the people I was with more than anything else. If you want to see if someone has issues with anxiety, fear and panic ....put them all together on a boat and watch them go to town!! lol That...and a lot of "control issues" which was really the bottom line of all the problems this presented me to deal with. That's really what I was doing most of the time ie: fighting and chasing after a bunch of control freaks all at once with the exception of my brother in law. He's not a control freak per se....he just blatantly oppositional and will do the opposite of anything you tell him or just not do anything you ask him to do and do something else entirely. lol
If I didn't make this clear (probably not).....was what I thought was so "stupid" in terms of anyone else on the boat....was just simply not deferring trust and thinking that they had a better idea of what to do when they all would clearly admit...that they knew next to nothing at all about what they were doing? Instead of allowing me to do what I knew was the right thing in every case.....each person took it onto themselves to do something different because they could not allow someone else to do that for them or just take instructions and not question them or doubt that it might not be right? This fear that it might not be right or if it didn't make sense to them was irrelevant. Like I said....I wasn't there to prove how much I knew....I was there to quietly do what I needed to do....but expect them to not question me or doubt me when I told them I needed something ..."NOW". Like they say......when the house is on fire....you don't sit down and discuss how it started or who started it....you get the hell out of there and discuss that part later. As it seemed.....this group....had never heard that one before!! lol
The facts here as they were:
1) You will never win trying to fight Mother Nature
2) You will never win, trying to fight someone who is Oppositional Defiant and you aren't not going to tell them "anything". lol If the house is burning and you yell at them "GET OUT NOW!!".....they will stand there and want to argue with you in how you told them to leave and dig there heals in unless you ask them nicely!! lol Regardless of whether the burning roof above them is about to come crashing down on top of their head!! How you tell them to leave the building...is more important than simply getting out there!! LOL This is absolutely true...I just experienced this in real time! lol
And what I learned here has everything to do with why my wife and I get into things so often. Ironically...the person who is most oppositional...is going to be the most pushy and bossy which is the very thing they hate the most. This kind of hypocrisy gets under my skin faster that anything else. Why? Because I've got that in there too....it just comes out differently and I deal with it in a completely different way. I'd have to go back to when I was a really small child to see this kind of oppositional defiance in me....but it never turned into a full blown issue which I think has everything to do with control and the ability to not panic. The only thing that really makes me panic....is a bunch of people who are all panicking at once.lol Actually...it doesn't make me panic....it just makes me irritable and short which is exactly what happens with my wife on a daily basis.
This was so telling to me and why the other people were picking up on this. I'm not usually short, moody or irritable and am generally pretty patient. I didn't expect anyone to know what to do on the boat....but I did expect a little help and for them not to read the situation the way they did? From my perspective (only)...if the skipper of a boat is getting cross and irritable....the first thing that would have popped into my head was...."what am I doing wrong?"....not....."what's his problem?" lol This was really what I was angry about with my wife...since she was the main culprit in making the situation worse...instead of better and the other people were deferring more to her.,..since she was being the second loudest squeaky wheel next to her brother.
And as I saw it....from my perspective with my wife's friends....she was having a lack of personal control issues and anxieties and her husband was mostly focused on catering to her and her issues...than he was anything else. In their case....she had her own personal attendant along with her to deal with all of those things for her while at the same time....was focused entirely on their own agenda and not really caring how that effected everyone else. That is...until she had to go to sleep and couldn't let go of the fear that if she did....we would all float away and get sucked down into some maelstrom suction hole and disappear into the bowls of the earth? Or something like that? lol
The reality of this situation really came down to whether a person can be on a boat and be comfortable and not have to worry about anything if they are not the ones directly doing everything to make sure it meets with their personal satisfaction or not. This inability to defer...is really what this is all about. This makes it difficult....to next to impossible....if you are the one in charge of things? To say the least!! LOL
And this is exactly why....they came up with a completely different language to use on a boat since there is only ONE word....and ONE way to read or interpret anything....and only ONE person put in charge. It has to be this way....or you should not step foot onto a boat.
And the reason for this? No one no matter who you are....you will NOT win in a fight with mother nature. Mother nature trumps all.... including: personal neuroses and personal issues and sensitivities. That's includes ADHD too which in my mind....is Mother Nature...not Nurture as I have come to understand it.
And that saying that goes along with any kind of activities where Mother Nature is involved especially being on a boat? Panic and hesitation are killers...you have to think on your feet...and know exactly what to do ahead of time since you'll always run into these situations and that is a guarantee.
I told my brother in law, not to sweat not hooking the line up correctly too. I've done those things countless times until I learned to double check everything to make sure before I walk away and think everything is Okay. The only thing I didn't tell him....was that you have to be able to defer yourself to someone else...and trust they know more than you do and just do what ever they say.....even if it doesn't make any sense to you.
This was what I was really angry with wife about. She cannot defer or trust that if she is not directly involved....that somehow putting her nose in where it doesn't belong.... is going to make it better....even if she will admit she knows absolutely nothing about what ever it is she's doing. What she's really doing....is making it worse for everyone else....and only relieving her anxiety for the moment to make her self feel better when she does that. The exact same thing her friend did...when she kept everyone up all night except for me. I can feel fortunate....that sleeping is not on the list of things I have to deal with:)
I looked up Oppositional Defiant and came up with this article about ADHD and Oppositional issues with ADHD. Speaking strictly for myself...and since I don't have a short fuse and am mostly even keeled in temperament....I can say that being pushed beyond what I am capable or expected to do things the same as others and forced to do things only one way like everyone else....is the very thing that caused this attitude with me starting when I was pretty young. I may not have a short fuse.....but when I reach a certain point and someone keeps pushing me....that's exactly the point where I will lose it and blow up if that person will not let go and keeps pushing.
As I watched what happened here with everyone involved. Something was pushing .....and in this one case...it was Mother Nature and nothing else yet....it appeared that this was not being understood as to why no one....could just be how they usually are...and still get away with it. As they saw it....I was the one pushing....but as I would have explained if I was allowed to right off the bat.....it was never me doing it which seemed pretty obvious when we were sitting there on the rocks while I was sitting quietly in my lounge chair at the time lol
What are the Symptoms of Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD) in Adults? Don’t Panic! Control Stress — Before It Controls You http://www.additudemag.com/adhd/article/9139.html
J
Writing and thinking
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
I read your last, J. You're a pluri-topic kind of guy, so there are a lot of issues that you set me off thinking about. So I'll pick one: writing
Yes, I think you're right on the whole, maybe not every woman but on the whole, women can have safe friends that they can vent with, and trust that the friend won't meddle or tell to others things said in confidence, but will just listen. I think so.
You made me laugh about a man starting to pour their heart out in a bunch of men and clearing the room. One of my little faves from Garrison Keillor, who tells jokes about Minnesotans, where he's from, is that Minnesota men's idea of an intimate conversation is to go outside together, raise the car hood and discuss the car engine.
From another angle, though, we're online, which means, that people write instead of talk on this forum. As you said "What was great....was to go back and here myself think and read what I had to say. "
J, I think you already think this, judging from how you handle many of your posts, writing long, until you name something or name how it works, or write out how you think about how it works. I think I see you consider alternative thoughts, and decide to keep your best thought and roundfile the rest. That's writing to think.
I think writing is a very good tool for understanding something and for solving problems. So is talking it out with friends, but using friends for that a lot can wear friends out.
Just as you said, you wrote it as it was, as best you could, and then had a chance to come back and look at it.
I've had stints in my adult life, in which writing was about the only way I had to get some objective distance on what I thought or what had just happened to me... There are other journalers on this site as well, I think. It becomes important to someone being gaslighted, and some come on this site gaslighted to write it as it really was in order to get a handle on what DID happen, what WAS said...
I don't think that writing to think, or writing to understand, or to see, or to solve problems, has to do with women per se and in fact I think over the long haul of history, there have been plenty of men who have written to do these things.
LOL I Must Know a Lot of Minnasotans!
Submitted by kellyj on
Hey wait a minute...I think my Grandfather (moms dad) was from Minnesota originally? mmmm? lol I also realized something in what you said. I don't actually speak to other people in such long detailed multiple ideas or plural topics (so much lol ) as I do here. That's not to say this isn't going on in my head however. Connecting the dots is what I do...but I have to sort that all out before I say anything. The challenge of having ADHD I guess? Actually.....if I didn't do that ahead of time....it would just come out all at once everywhere I go and doing this ahead of time before I actually speak....is also what I do all the time. What I don't get to do...is actually go back and read again later since most of that is not actually being said anyway.
And the thing you mentioned about those who are being Galighted? You never get a chance....that's the point. As a person on the other side of someone doing this....they're controlling what is being said....not you. When they don't like hearing what is being said....they making sure it never does...yet....it seems their two bits are always getting in there no matter what.
I also agree with you on the man...woman thing. I might be more apt to speak more openly about certain things that make some men uncomfortable....but I know this already and so...I just don't do it. I think this is more of what we're taught...than anything to do with the nature of men and women by itself.... but after too long of not doing it...I think a lot of men either don't because they not very good with it...or they just don't like to because they not use to it and it makes them uncomfortable for that reason alone? Either way...the end result is still the same? I think without that getting in the way.....I don't think there is as big a difference than people might think?
Except in Minnesota? lol
J
This is a hard one to finish.
Submitted by kitmao on
This is a hard one to finish. Just the way this reads, it sounds a lot like my husband. He has ADHD, which is untreated, and some mutual friends and I are starting to suspect he might have BPD as well.
So, what I'm going to say, I'm saying from a place of direct honesty based only on my personal experiences and a response to what I read here. I don't mean to attack you, but I am a direct person who doesn't see the point in sugar coating and white lies. I also know that things that feel brutal when heard can sometimes reveal a truth we didn't want to hear.
Anyway, my husband subscribes to the "always right, and always the victim" mentality that comes across in what you have written here. It is very hard to live with a person like that and it is easy to want to give up. I often feel undermined and not believed, and my boundaries are often being disregarded. In fact, one year our marriage therapist broke us up because he could see my boundaries were being disregarded and he wanted to help me with that out of the way of my husband's interference and blaming. And I am a direct person, so it was never because I didn't state my boundaries!
The way you write about how your wife shuts down is exactly what I used to do when I would throw in the towel and realize nothing I do or say matters to my husband and at this point, he has decided for me my feelings and intentions. This reads in the same way. I mean, you literally outlined at the start of this why you are the better, smarter person and "here's proof." Also, in several places, you were reading other people's minds and emotions, which is a superpower if you can do that. I wouldn't be surprised if your wife feels like you're condescending to her, and the way you write about her is with no love. That has to bleed into your daily interactions with her. I hope you and your wife can get therapy together. No one is perfect and if anything is glaring in this lengthy report, it sounds like boundaries were crossed and communications failed. Also, I think the most happily married people know the first rule to a happy marriage is to get over your pride.
Thank You...kitmao
Submitted by kellyj on
For your directness and your honesty.
Turning the page. Yes, most definitely. I have struggled with this shutting down issue that my wife has and I have also been searching for answers myself in why this is? I can't know how you mean shutting down for yourself. What shutting down for my wife is exactly what you said about your husband in some ways.
I really can't speak to any correlations you made between what I've written here and what you've experienced with husband (or what your friends think of him and what his problems are ) but I will stay on topic and use what Now Or Never was trying to say to me at the time I responded to her. I think she has some really good things to say and going back over it now....I can see more of what she was saying than at the time.
At the time....I said this. "Right now I'm exhausted, frustrated and angry. This is a cry for help and I'm the worst at asking for it. I apologize up front for my inability to do this correctly. Underneath those surface emotions...and I feel deeply hurt and troubled and fair amount of of resentment for so many reasons I don't know where or how to begin. Right now....I cannot seem to see my way outside of what just happened over the last 4 days away on vacation with my wife, her brother and some friends that invited themselves along to join us (so they said ) but actually did a hit and run on us that threw a bizarre twist into this story that has me scratching my head and at the same time....seeing my wife as a person that I cannot say I have much respect for what so ever...but even deeper than that....I cannot see any Love in her what so ever for me. I feel nothing inside but emptiness or I have no fond feelings what so ever for my wife at this moment in time. What ever feelings I was feeling for her before this time...have effectively died and I'm not seeing a lot of hope in them ever returning this time. What ever I end up feeling towards her after this last excursion....will never be what they were before we left.......To start with....this is just what I am honestly feeling inside and my thoughts to go along with it."
As NowOrNever recognized this was a vent and I was writing to think. It was also a cry for help as I said with no where to turn but right here and just get it out. As she pointed out to me...J, I think you already think this, judging from how you handle many of your posts, writing long, until you name something or name how it works, or write out how you think about how it works. I think I see you consider alternative thoughts, and decide to keep your best thought and roundfile the rest. That's writing to think.
I think writing is a very good tool for understanding something and for solving problems. So is talking it out with friends, but using friends for that a lot can wear friends out.
Just as you said, you wrote it as it was, as best you could, and then had a chance to come back and look at it.
I've had stints in my adult life, in which writing was about the only way I had to get some objective distance on what I thought or what had just happened to me... There are other journalers on this site as well, I think. It becomes important to someone being gaslighted, and some come on this site gaslighted to write it as it really was in order to get a handle on what DID happen, what WAS said...
I don't think that writing to think, or writing to understand, or to see, or to solve problems, has to do with women per se and in fact I think over the long haul of history, there have been plenty of men who have written to do these things.
NowOrNever was right on the money. She was very observant and astute and speaking objectively as she saw it and I would not disagree with her.
To put this into context for you. What I experienced when I wrote this...and what I continue to experience in my daily interactions with my wife and in general...is exactly what you wrote here about yourself...."but I am a direct person who doesn't see the point in sugar coating and white lies. I also know that things that feel brutal when heard can sometimes reveal a truth we didn't want to hear. Anyway, my husband subscribes to the "always right, and always the victim" mentality. It is very hard to live with a person like that and it is easy to want to give up. I often feel undermined and not believed, an my boundaries are often being disregarded... my boundaries were being disregarded and he wanted to help me with that out of the way of my husband's interference and blaming. And I am a direct person, so it was never because I didn't state my boundaries!" I'm trying to do the same thing here...to help myself out of the way of my wifes interference and blaming.
My wife prides herself as being "direct person" too. She's also is very direct in stating her boundaries as you say you are too? She also prides herself in not sugar coating and saying it the way it is. That is...how she feels about anything right then and there in the moment. She'll let you or anyone else know exactly how she feels about anything and sets her those clear and well defined boundaries up where ever she goes "first"...before anyone else has a chance too. These aren't stated ahead of time or negotiated...she just takes them for herself and never asks anyone else what they want. She is extremely quick about setting boundaries and very competitive about it in an adversarial way. And she's very direct and too the point. She doesn't sugar coat it...and says what she feels.
Too the point.....no one else gets a chance to. Boundaries are for her....not anyone else. No one gets to have any boundaries but her. She "draws first blood" as her general MO. That goes for blaming and accusing. She's big on accusing first and blames you first. First to blame, first to set boundaries, first to be confrontational and is openly confrontational as her way of dealing with things. "First blood"....is in her nature to do and she is very direct, brutally honest and speaks her mind without hesitation. She stakes out her claim, sets up boundaries and expects everyone not to cross them. Her boundary area is very wide in circumference and what is left...is what you get. She decides first....because "first blood" is her normal MO for everything.
And if you try to take more than she feels you should, complains about whats left or try to compete with her for the boundary area that she grabbed first before you get a chance but took more than was hers to take or what is fair or equitable from a 50/50 kind of way of seeing it (as she sees it)....she shuts you down.
Shutting down is her way of cutting you off. If you try and say anything to contrary...she'll shut that down too. No one gets a chance to speak. No one gets a chance to have a say. No one gets a chance to have personal boundaries with my wife because she is so good at boundary setting and she'll beat everyone to the punch before they get a chance too. For her.....shutting down is a way to get her two bits into every conversation first....and never allowing anyone else too because she is so direct and quick to grab land as fast as she can way ahead of anyone else....so that land becomes "mine". If you step across that line....your stepping across into her territory because as she see's it....it's "mine." And she'll let you know that in no uncertain terms in her very direct and un sugar coated way. This is her nature to do this and she does it everywhere she goes and she doesn't like it if you want to discuss this with her. In fact, if you try....she'll shut down and cut you off. She is a closed book and is very closed off about discussing any ting that has to do with modifying or adjusting her behavior in these areas. She has an intense need...to be first and is very competitive about it. In essence to this...she expect the world to fit her, instead of the other way around.
All I can tell you about myself that you can't know in context to this thread I started is....I am pretty much the opposite of this. I don't shut down and cut people off and am usually very open to discuss things. What I'm not good with...is setting boundaries and am usually laid back about it and mine are generally pretty small in circumference. Really really small usually. And I usually allow a lot of latitude for movement either way. I'm generally really flexible and allowing and can easily adapt and change to fit the situation which is why my boundaries and usually very elastic and moveable and changeable on demand as needed. I also forgive easily and don't hang on to things for very long. I can forgive myself as easily and I forgive others and don't carry all that anger around with me. And I don't have a need to right as much as being oppositional. I can easily say when I failed as long as I can see it. If I can't see it (where I went wrong)...I'm like anyone else I guess who can't see it either? Writing to think...and writing things down and going back and looking at it...is why I do this in the first place. ....to see where I went wrong. Being wrong. Making mistakes is what I see first in myself and am generally speaking....willing to openly talk about it and don't shut other people down. And in general....am not shy in apologizing either. It's not a difficult thing for me to do.
Where I go wrong more often than not....is not being direct enough ahead of time...and then digging in and being oppositional when someone is confrontational with me. It's a component of or left over effect from being oppositional growing up and it's still there to a certain degree. I tend to mirror what is happening with me so if someone is being oppositional or confrontational....I tend to be oppositional and confrontational. If someone starts accusing and blaming...I start to accuse and blame. I have a strong tendency to do this. But I never draw first blood and avoid confrontation almost like the plague and this all says one thing to me. This is where I go wrong and I have no problem admitting that since I'm not good with setting boundaries....I allow others to take more than they should and I allow most of everything that happens to be but I'm really not a victim as I see it. I don't like the results of my inabilities soemtimes...but I don't blame others when that happens and see this pretty clearly as my failure to speak up or be quicker on the draw ahead of time but really....I'd rather not do that. I'd rather take a wait and see attitude....negotiate boundaries with the other person in an on going basis instead of taking them and staking claim And as I see it, a victim is generally...a person who refuses to take responsibility for their actions. What I lack or don't have mostly...are better ways of dealing with confrontation due to a lack of doing it and I fail miserably at being confrontational, setting those boundaries, and allowing things that others might not allow as my first course of action. Which means...doing nothing first as my first response. First blood....is definitely not my MO for anything. I am a passive person by nature and this is my comfort zone. And when it comes to being right....that's not an issue and don't care about being right. What I care about and when I get oppositional....is when the person in front of me being confrontational...won't admit when their wrong. This is my version of ODD and this is definitely something I'm working on.
The biggest problem I have and will admit as well .... is this copy catting tit for tat thing where I join a person who has to right....and do that along with them. My need isn't there to be right....my need in that case is to win when in competition and that mirroring the same bad behavior right back in a competitive way. If right is the competition...then I'm in all the way. If it's something else and someone wants to complete....then I'm in all the way there too. For me....I need to resist competition if someone else is doing that with me. It's not about right and wrong....it's about winning the fight.(the ODD thing again) That's a problem for me....if someone is always needing to be first. It's a hard one for me to deal with...and this I fully admit. I'll win any way I can...the right way..or the wrong way. That's my problem more than anything and I totally don't need to do it. It's a left over...that's all it is and more of a habit but the need is not there anymore.
And I appreciate your honesty and pointing this out to me...it really does help to get different perspectives. I'm a little confused in the part in what you said about the mind reading part and what exactly you were referring to but I'm speculating a little in thinking some of the conclusions and things I've learned in therapy directly from my T being used in my reflections of those events are certainly coming across that way...but as far as the condescension part itself....I won't disagree with you. The main reason for doing this at all...is from a lack of good open honest communication on my wifes part...and being forces to think or figure out what she's actually feeling or thinking. I can see where that would look I think I know? In reality...I really have no idea unless she tells me and she won't and refuses to open up and discuss it usually which is exactly what happened here...and why I was doing this.
But that doesn't mean...when I get confrontational or competitive....that I'm not good with doing it wrong. That much....I will fully admit. It's why I write things down like this...so I can look at it and see it.
What NowOrNever mentioned about journaling and saving my best thoughts and roundfiling the rest? She's right....this forum at times is my round file (writing to think)...and my best thoughts I try and save for my wife so she is spared the things I say here sometimes. This is part of venting it and letting it go....so my wife doesn't get it. It's how I don't hold on to things very long and get rid of it and move on.
J