In my previous post recently I put a link to a site concerning an article......NOT video/audio. Once at the site on the left hand side scroll until you see an article titled....Reconciliation With Your Hardened Wife. THIS is what I am referring to. The written and video do not seem to contain the same info.
I would like to add...in my view......that at some point.......as humans.....enough is enough. Decisions need to be made. Whether they are right or wrong will play out also. Striving to love and do a "right" thing. Sometimes a right decision IS NOT.....in the end. Sometimes you can make it right.....sometimes you can't. Trusting MYSELF to handle the outcome is ,to me, the biggest obstacle to my success....at anything. We search for ...input, advice, direction,answers etc. I seek.....not to find ones in agreement with me......but for one who offers another view and thoughts to give me a broader scope of possibilities in the hope that I may not be "missing" something. Yes,I find agreement where someone articulates my thoughts/feelings. I appreciate it. Just as I appreciate someone saying something that makes the "light bulb" go on.
What I have learned in the past several months.....has been amazing to me. This site is invaluable in navigating adhd and marriage in general as that is representative so often in relationship(adder versus non). It helps you see also that adhd is not the cover all excuse for behavior....not just in a marriage but PERIOD.
This article spoke FOR ME. After 43 years of marriage.......not wanting to WALK but finding that that is where I am headed........I did NOT EVER think I would BE thinking and feeling such a thing. It made me question EVERYTHING about me.....so like I said........enough is enough.
My husband said to me a few months back......." you have become hard hearted" ....and I didn't disagree. I hated how I felt. I could not understand WHAT has happened with me? WHY can't I do/be the person I USED to be? It drove me nuts because I refused to believe there was ANYTHING that could cause me to become someone I had NO desire to BE!! Oh wait........I do not live a solitary/single life......I am sharing my life daily, minute by minute with another person. I CHOSE that. He CHOSE that. I am OVER the gray area of what love means. If we have differing definitions and they uplift us...great. If they are differing and they ARE HURTFUL........not going to work....period.
I DID have an expectation of loving and being loved when I married.......I am done with listening to that being debated and turned into anyone who thinks that is not thinking fairly. WTH!
" Sadly, most husbands have few memories of “hurting” their wives. But let all such men consider – if a woman does something as extreme as leave her mate, claiming she can no longer handle the emotional pain, isn’t it likely she is, in fact, in pain? (If emotional feelings could bleed, a man would see a trail of blood following his wife as she leaves him.) The truth is that a hardened woman only got that way because her feelings got hurt over and over. Herein lies the problem – most women believe that they have communicated their hurt to their husbands, but most husbands only have memories of their wife’s bad attitudes. All those times a wife thought she was simply expressing the cry of an injured heart, her husband only perceived hostility, coldness, or hatred. She felt like she was begging for tenderness and sensitivity, and he backed away because he thought he was being attacked. My experience is that most women leave their husbands, because they entered marriage with expectations of feeling cherished and secure, and their husbands unwittingly have sent the message that they are not. Hence, those women end up feeling defrauded, then often bitter and hardened."
In the end......if 2 people who supposedly love each other CANNOT have an honest open discussion about ANYTHING.........?
I DID have an expectation of
Submitted by vabeachgal on
I DID have an expectation of loving and being loved when I married.......I am done with listening to that being debated and turned into anyone who thinks that is not thinking fairly. WTH!
I agree with this statement and I also agree that I don't care to be vilified for having "expectations". We all carry expectations about our relationships, our jobs, friends, our parents and siblings, products and services, our kids, our communities.....hell, I unapologetically have expectations about my garbage collector. Having expectations is not representative of false patterns of thinking or a lack of discernment and clarity. Maybe instead of expectations, let's consider it minimum acceptable standards. Instead of a victim based mentality of "oh, my expectations weren't met" it's more "you're disappointing me because you're not operating up to par and capability". In the second case, you are voicing the minimum you will accept. I expect something different at McDonalds than I do at Ruth's Chris.
The article had a clear bias. I can read things and note the bias without feeling the need to tear the piece apart. Anyone who reads political commentary must make note of bias LOL. I'll read it as someone else's opinion and let it go. Lightbulb moments can come even during moments of disagreement.
I chose it ignore the stereotypical comments contained in the article and focus on the thesis, if you will. The path to reconciliation described doesn't need to happen as described because men and women are so different. It is important to consider the miscommunications and barriers to communication. It is important to be selfless in the attempt and to seek to understand and empathize first and to validate the other person. Everything else in the article aside, I think the message is meaningful.
I've read through the other post once - it's all I can do, no more, it's "too much" so maybe I missed quite a bit - but I sure can't see the link between hypocritical Christians and prejudice, which is fear based, fear based people suffer from personality disorders, so prejudiced people are disordered individuals, and if I let go of prejudice which is fear, I will no longer feel unsafe and insecure. Huh? See, because I thought it was my husband lying to me about things so I did not have a true picture of things and a firm basis upon which to make reasonable decisions based on true facts....that made me unsafe... because being the recipient of lies is an icky feeling... and that I want to live in a place of truth which is "safe", but I guess I'm just harboring some weird prejudice???
If you want to attack the author of the article based on stereotypical representations and biased assumptions, fine. However, I cannot follow this discussion to the point where I see a logical conclusion to the "BIGGIE" of prejudice making me feel unsafe and that a desire for safety is the biggest prejudice or false assumption of all?
I think I was just told to fuck off as well since being desirous of safety is the biggest prejudice of all?
Clearly Through the Beliefs and Getting To It
Submitted by kellyj on
VA,
Connecting what I was saying to Zapp as well? And getting past any misunderstanding in what I was attempting to say? Safety? Or feeling safe seems to be the stumbling block here? That and what keeps getting referenced as feeling protected which was brought up in the tape recording which I did go to after glancing through the article that Zapp was referencing? Maybe I am assuming too much....but as I heard these things come through once again in what was said? I heard that a man is only half a man and a woman is only half a woman....weaker ( as I heard it ) like incapable, incompetent, God made Man in his image and Eve was the one who was deceived ( the womans fault ) for going against God and it's the womans fault that she was too stupid and didn't know any better and bit the apple...so to speak? And since women are too stupid to know any better and are the once too nave to be deceived like that...then a Man has to protect these stupid women...from themselves....because they are so defenseless and hapless on there own....and need a man to do that for them...to protect them ( from themselves??? ) Almost??? At least in the language...that what what this guy was alluding to? That a woman can't be a woman...without a man there to fill in the space ( between her ears??? ) and has to take charge and do that for her? As if to say...that a woman ...can't do this for herself....and....she is just too stupid to know any better because ( referencing Adam and Eve ) it was Eve who the one who Fucked it up for everyone and was so easily deceived and was such a feel for not listening to God so therefore??????? Women need to be protected and kept safe...because they are too incompetent and too stupid to do this for themselves alone?
If you go back and listen to this (if you did )....and listen to how he was saying this.....this is pretty much what he was saying...which is what I find offensive in itself just from the get go? And that is taking on the side of women in this case on women behalf? Is that acceptable to you....being talked down to like that? As if you are nothing without a man...and a man is somehow more capable than you and you can't do it alone without a man doing it for you? Like a piece of chattel that the man owns and is ...in charge of?
In charge of to make sure you ( stupid women ) they don't go out and get deceived because ( as we know ...with Eve...remember ) she was the Fuck Up. She ruined it for everyone and was the cause of getting kicked out or the garden of Eden by disobeying God you know? Those Damn Women......what can you do with them? Can't live with em...and can't live without em? But...hey...it's my job as a man to protect em...cause...they're just too damn stupid, helpless and hapless.... to know any better and you got a keep and eye on em...or they will just go out and Fuck Up some more...just like Eve did? You know....because they are just too damn stupid and it's a mans job to make sure they are safe and protected since.....they are so incompetent and incomplete without a man that....
Well then..and therefore.....it's the Mans job to do that for them because they can't do it by themselves? Everyone knows that? Mans the Head...and the women is?????( what? chopped Liver??? ) That's what's expected of woman...keep her bare foot and pregnant and keep making those babies right? .And it';s a Man's job to do that for them and take care of them since they are so weak and worthless and incomplete on their own? I'm really honestly wondering if no one else is picking that up on this in the very things he was saying? The language was pretty unmistakable in what he was alluding to and why he was referencing the things he was saying? At least...that's the way it sounded to me...but what do I know? I was just listening to his words..and not applying it to any believe system at all? As if I had never heard of any of that before...and was hearing it for the first time? It sounded remarkably disrespectful to women...painting them as someone...incomplete....incompetent vessel ( empty vessel no less ) that needs to filled with a man? A weak, fragile, semi worthless ( in her own right ) vessel, with 1/2 a brain and is 1/2 a person...unless she is with a man which to the point...all she is good for is to make babies and not much else? Or I forgot. To serve man and to be of service to a man? Did I miss anything there?
And in the same way...he was referencing men in the same way? As if....You MUST do this...or you are only half a person? And as he was explaining the brain part....as he was saying this.....the attributes are split....one goes with a man...and one goes with a woman. Right down the middle...and neither one is worth 1/2 a shit...without the other 1/2 that is missing which is about as big a bunch of baloney as I have ever heard of? That is just down right disrespectful...to everyone concerned right there?
His language was using those very references so I don't know how anyone could not have heard that? But I am not assuming anything here from my perspective? But in how I heard all those referencing at those strategic points in his commentary....it was hard not to get this impression...and hard not to interpret what he was saying to mean or imply..or infer...exactly that?
And may be I am all wrong here in how I am applying the things he said? But I did hear those references and they sounded mighty disrespectful and offensive to me...if I had been a women hearing that...I would have been pissed!! Call it what you will? Bias. Prejudice what ever? But when you reduce the worth of a person down to that level and say this is a good thing? I have a hard time understanding why that would not offend someone but especially women?
I was raised at least with my mother teaching the lessons...that men and women are equals...and a man is not OVER a woman...smarter than a woman..and less capable than a women...and in our house...I was treated the same as my sisters and my sisters were treated the same as me? When it came to fairness...gender was not in play? My sisters were taught the same as I was?
Go to college. Get a career. Take care of yourself, By yourself. And don't depend on anyone to do that for you? Pretty simple and easy to understand? Everyone take care of yourself...and don;t expect anyone esle to take care of you? That message was sent out loud and clear by my own mother and I do beleive she was so adament....from being stuck with my father with no way out and no where to get away? She was thinking forward and in fear for her own children but especially my sisters in that...they would never been stuck in the same portion she found herself in...with a Man who took charge and control ( safe yes...my mom was always safe and taken care of ) but was not allowed to think for her self...without a man there to make decisions for her and take care of her with his permission and blessing for everything? My mom was that perfect piece of chattel...and my father played his part to the letter which sounded very much like what this guy was saying too....just like he was suppose to? Take charge. Take control. Take care of. Take the Head and be the Fearless Big strong leader and the big boss of everything....and makes everyone safe because they didn't have to worry about food on the table, clothes and shoes for the kids .... and a rood over you head?
In my mind....my mom was totally safe and taken care of....but at what cost or price did she have to pay for this? Nothing in life..is ever free?
Which reminds me of the CSNY song...."find the cost of freedom...buried in the ground.....mother earth, will swallow you...lay your body down."
All I am saying is....I think safety...is over rated? There is a cost and a reason for everything in my mind? And as far as this Christian thing just to be clear for me and not get this confused with anything else?
It is wrong...dead wrong...to have prejudice against Gay and Lesbian people. Period. No if ands or buts and no excuse you can possibly use including the Bible? They are people...with the same rights as you...and anything said that goes contrary to this...is dead wrong and is bad. Period. End of story and no discussion since...that is what I believe and I will not ever change from that? Discrimination of any kind and trying to use the bible for an excuse...is just that. A rationalization and is not right and is notthe true word of what Jesus taught or the word of God IMHO? That's just what I believe as part of my belief system not just an opinion? If it wasn't for that...or if it wasn't for the fact that all human beings are included and none are excluded? Then I would call myself a Christian...but because of that....I have to disqualify myself otherwise...I would be one too? Just to be sure?
J
OK, J, I get what you are
Submitted by jennalemone on
OK, J, I get what you are saying and have spent countless hours in my head on the injustices on women, the patronizing, the religious put down of women. And you know where I am coming from....similar religious backgrounds.
The value of what Zapp's reading link TO ME is this: But I will remove the gender references:
You (or most of us human beings) want to feel that the person you entrust with your heart, your economic future, your sanity, and your peace of mind........is able and willing to effectively contribute to the SAFETY of your heart, your economic future, your sanity and your peace of mind. It is scary and crazy-making when you give your heart, your faith and your time to another person and that person toys, ignores, teases, lies and forgets. There doesn't need to be physical abuse for a person (especially a weaker, more vulnerable, less entitled, less opportuned person) to be afraid and feel vulnerable and wary.
Safety of the Heart Perfect Description Jenna
Submitted by kellyj on
A the core of my particular attachment style...is the at the heart of this type of insecurity ( Anxious- Preoccupied that is? ) If you were to look this up...it would talk about being overly clingy and needy just for starters. Then it would say things like always needing to keep track of or keep in touch with your partner in a more paranoid way in fear if they get too far away or out of sight...that they might be doing things behind your back or you would interpret them being away from you for too long....that this would cause that person to start freaking out and getting panicky? This kind of hypervigilent...watchful distrusting eye...would then start to erode the trust of the other person and make that person feel trapped or like they cannot get away from you or that they are always needing to be with you constantly with lots of reassurance where seemingly ...reassasurance is not really needed or warranted? The bottom line of this type of insecurity comes from not feeling worthy of being Loved...or not feeling like you have anything to be Loved within yourself? It would go on to describe a tendency to smother or to be too giving too much or feeling like you are always having to give more...just to get very little back in return? Almost like you have to buy any affection or buy what you need from the other person which can create obvious problems in the trust department since the lack of trust and this over needing affection or attention and needing to be affectionate all the time in order to get that validation you need just to convince yourself that the other person wants to be with you or to reinforce ( what you cannot actually believe) that this person wants to be with you or Loves you and you are willing to accept a whole lot of unacceptable behavior or even abusive behavior from you partner only because you feel that is all you are worthy of or worth since your self worth is so low already? To the point of always selling yourself short ..and then wondering why you hate yourself and your self esteem is in the toilet? In a nut shell...this is approximately what it would say if you looked this up since I know this by heart and am very familiar with this myself?
In reality.....for myself....much of this...simply does not apply and much of this...I have never really done as described?
But at the core of this....aside from these behaviors that might be missing especially the clingy needy parts as it would say? The feelings of not being worth the Love you might be given or not being able to see the Love coming at you since you are so ready not to be Loved....is part of this type of attachment style which basically allows you to accept a lot more of anything negative or even abusive...than you really should and that much in my past....is what was more or less true in some ways but not all ways as this might indicate? Mostly...to a lessor degree without all that drama and with me....mostly this played out where I just stayed too long or longer than I should have? That was really the feature that stood out or that anyone could see outside of the description?
To say this differently....a willingness to put up with what...you should not put up with but are afraid of rocking the boat in fear of causing that person to move away from you in fear that this might happen if you said anything or spoke up for yourself and unfortunately.....people who are looking for someone who will put up with way more than they should and get away with murder...will pick a person like this...as an easy target in that this type of person...will always be afraid of saying anything even if they are unhappy or even if that person is abusive? It could easily be said or likened too the "battered wife syndrome"? And picking people who are impossible to please since type of person will keep trying harder and harder to please that person..and they have to less and less to get what they want? Usually...someone just like this who will give them everything...and have to give nothing in return?
That is the Anxious- Preoccupied insecure attachment right there in a nut shell? And usually..the counter part to this...is an Avoidance insecure attachment which is the perfect fit or perfect dysfunctional counter part to this the AP type which is prone or predisposed to being or becoming co-dependent as it says in the literature?
This attachemnt style of course...is determined before you can even remember which is why these feelings are so hard to place since you can;[t connect them to anything in your life that makes sense or you can remember how you got this way which is the insidious part of this...but there is a little more too it as well?
There appears to be two ways this can come about which manifests itself somewhat differently?
The first way...is where the mother is actually demanding to have attention to herself from the child and is always needing that attention she is getting from the child or like she is trying to be the Childs best friend instead of a mother which gets things all messed up and is going the opposite direction than it should be?
The other source of this...is where the mother is too focused on the child in a smothering way. Too intrusive..and too involved in every nuance of the child life where the child gets stifled and smothered and can't break away from the mothers intrusive over involvement of the Childs life and always has to be with the child and into everything they do all the time in a smothering and intrusive way?
I can't speak to the former one....but the latter one was in part....how my mother was but the caveat with me was....my mom was way more focused on my older sisters than she was with me and if she tried to do that with me at times....I got away in a hurry and broke free of that to the point the effect this had on me was minimized and buffered by my older sisters who unfortunately....took the brunt of that for me? What I got was more of this inconsistent back and forth of not enough...and then too much but the too much was easily handled and never became intrusive since I was always busy and out of the house when ever possible?
But what I have learned from this..and what I have long since worked through so this isn't an issue as much for me anymore ( it wasn't severe in what I am saying right from the start ) is the feeling or a little left over tug from time to time...that reminds me of the loneliness and the sadness of being alone and not feeling very valued? I don't care how big and manly a guy may come across.....I think at the core.....men and women and humans and people...need to feel valued and with me to sum this up if I had exactly what I want or needed to really fill that low spot or depression on my soul if you will?
Is someone who believes in me...as much as I believe in myself? I have never had any real problems with believing in myself...but experiencing anyone in an intimate close relationship or even in my past and family? I have never had anyone in my life other than my swim coach which doesn't count as I am thinking about my intimate female relationships and what I would ask for if I had my wish?
That would touch that core vulnerable spot and hit the bulls eye with me...and so if I had to say what Safety means to me....that is how Safety would show itself and hit that bulls eye...right on target?
So if you can understand it from that perspective....feeling Safe...of feeling secure....comes in different forms and is not exclusive to women only? Humana need to feel safe and secure....so to say simply the word "Safe"...."not afraid"...or....:'secure"...can mean many things to many people and that is not specific enough a term or use...to have any idea what a person might be saying or why depending on a man or woman but to the point? Not only women...need to feel Safe...and it is a fallacy that men don't need it...even if they won't or can't admit it? That might not sound attractive or even manly or very protective on a woman account...but I think if a woman discounts this is true or doesn't believe it to be that way...I think she might be missing the boat on that one...and completely not understanding what a man needs in that respect?
Humans need to feel safe and secure...and assuming they don't don't or assuming incorrectly that what you need is what another person needs is simply not understanding this...and not understanding how humans are designed to function and designed as far as Safety of the Heart is concerned...which is a perfect ways to describe this Jenna?
That's why simply saying....safe...or safety...or feeling taken care of? How that person needs it...is what anyone should be trying to find out since everyone needs this in their own way...and failure to understand this...is simply a failure to understand I think? If you can only know that much and beleive that to be true? Then the rest is up to you...to figure out the what...and the how...and then do it? Pretty much?
J
The human condition
Submitted by jennalemone on
This is why we are on this site - as you said so well, J: The loneliness and the sadness of being alone and not feeling very valued?
Isn't this why human beings turn to Romantic love, religious faith, the Arts, teams, leadership, fame, war, ..... most energy in life? To quell these human feelings of being alone and not valued? And isn't being a part of a couple/effort/union/community a cure for the loneliness and self value?
Yes Jenna
Submitted by kellyj on
as you said so well :)
23 as-yet unread-by-me comments in that topic
Submitted by Terra on
Aaand posting here, anyway. (Came here, first, because curious what fresh thought you'd have, Zapp10.)
I don't (yet) know what, exactly, was said about the Hardheartedness article. I maybe should say here that to the best of my understanding, it behooves all of us to develop our conscience... I.e. actually do the exercise, of discernment etc., and trust that our decisions will be right. (Parable of the talents springs to mind - using *all* of our brain functions being among the ways we best put our resources to work. Each person's brain.)
I read the thought-provoking article from a variety of viewpoints. I was struck by the nugget that it hurts us, to be living with a hardened heart (aka sin, harmful to living one's full, best self). I was impressed at the author's multiple ways of saying, if your partner is saying she's feeling unloved, and you dismiss that very important element _in_your_marriage_, then you have some work to do. I appreciated his reminder that when we marry, we have an expectation that those promises (to hold dear, to cherish..) were sincere.
That aside, I believe that if someone is "bleeding" because of her partner's behavior, that she owes it to herslf to stop the bleeding the best she can. Including divorce/separation if that's her best solution. Even if others with whom she prays regularly think otherwise. While marriage usually is not 50/50 at any given moment, it does require two engaged partners. This probably seems a little vehement. I'm distressed when people put nitpicking about laws meant to support us, ahead of bevaving as humans. (The novel "Mr God, This Is Anna" is well worth the read, for anyone who hasn't yet read it.)
*in the above, the terms she and her are meant to include he and him*
Moving forward,,,one step at a time
Submitted by Zapp10 on
I posted under this topic because , for me, navigating through this adhd maze has opened my eyes to SO many other things that BOTH of us needed to see in our lives individually and in our marriage. At one point....I felt..hopeless. I have NEVER felt that way in my life..not even with the death of my daughter. I knew I was NOT in a good place. The sense that something is horribly off some where, some how, some way in my life....and I could not FIND it!! Every time a discovery was made( him or me) GREAT.......but still......the hopelessness returned. Well there you go.....the under lying sense of NO hope was still there......sweet Jesus. ONE MORE thing to "sort out"? No.......the most IMPORTANT thing. (again, this is my journey). I was LIVING with no hope and I needed to address THAT as a priority. My faith brought me back from the edge of a place I NEVER want to go to again. Hopelessness is a VERY BAD AWFUL place to be.
I have hope again...and that is progress. I am confident I can "handle" my H's adhd as we have discovered that the other issue "hidden" within him has been far more detrimental to us than the adhd. The similarities are quite insidious at times and we have a ways to go but there is "hope" that we will both go forward with a better life....individually OR together.
One thing I have learned is the "adhd effect" is an eye opener to "seeing" how ones behavior( for WHATEVER the reason) "effects" others........even though you may not "see" it happening. It CAN change you( as unintentional as it may be). I have been on the receiving end of it ......and it makes me look way more at my own behavior and attitude with others.
In a marriage/union it is ALWAYS about the 2. You share your individuality with/ for the benefit of each other. Don't want to share?.....don't get married. Said you wanted to share? but then don't? Don't be surprised if it doesn't go well...duh.
And lastly......the human need TO LOVE and BE LOVED.......is LIFE. The GOD I believe in wants that FAR MORE than he doesn't want...divorce. My faith is based on the DO'S not the DON'TS.