Well first, I'm new here. My husband was recently diagnosed with ADD and he actually sent me articles off of the blog. I was shocked when I read them because it was like they had come straight out of my head. While I am happy that my husband is taking things seriously, and is experimenting with some meds (per his doctor's recommendations), I am still struggling with dealing with him.
Basically, we have been married a year and half (almost). While we were dating, I can only assume that he was hyperfocusing on me, because things were good. He always had a time management issue (which constantly caused problems at his job and with me), but I dealt with it the best I could. Two days before our wedding, he lost his job. Part of the reason was the fact that he had been consistently late, and this last time, he tried to cover it up, but got caught anyway. It was a major blow to him because he loved his job, and so I was very supportive at first. I tried to encourage him as he applied for other jobs, and was patient with the side jobs that he had to take to make ends meet. We actually lived apart for about 6 months before I was able to get a new job and we were able to move in together. That is where the trouble started, and its been down hill from there. I'm actually to the point that I'm seeing a counselor and am taking meds for depression because I could not cope with my husband anymore. The time management issues, the tuning out for our day-to-day life, the irresponsibility with finances; I'm about at my wits end. Its like I've been dealing with so long that I'm having trouble hanging on to see if he can get acclimated to the meds and some of the coping stradegies.
I will be the first to admit that he is trying but one issue remains the "pink elephant" in our relationship--our finances. Its already stressful that I'm the major breadwinner, and he is barely bringing in half of what we need to survive. His credit rating has taken a nose dive because we didn't have the money to make his bills. Now he's haggling with two different banks over some accounts that are in default. He has made a payment plan with one bank, but apparently no one took the time to put that information into their system because we get letters and phone calls daily. That only adds to my stress. The other bank offered to cut his debt in half if he could pay by a specific time; he put half of the money into his account, but then got a call from a collection agency before his deadline was up. The money in the account disappeared, and no one seems to know what's going on. I'm about to pull my hair out! He won't let me take over these accounts (I manage the rest of our bills and expenses) and so I constantly stress because I know he's not getting where he needs to be. Its very important that these accounts get cleared up because he won't be able to get a job in his field unless his credit score goes up. Which means that money will continue to be tight, and cause more stress... Its a deadly cycle.
How can I get through to him? He knows that I'm stressed and that I want to deal with his financial issues on my own, but he refuses to listen to me. He says that I need to chill out...but how can I when no matter how hard I try, I just can't seem to get us out of the financial mess that we're in?
Financial Solution Requires Honesty
Submitted by FabTemp on
TWO different banks screwed up and "lost" the money and "lost" the payment plan contract? He was already fired from one job after unsuccessfully LYING about his tardiness?
I'm suspecting that there never was a payment plan enacted with the bank who "lost" it and there never was a deposit made on the other debt which was also "lost". If there was such a deposit that you SAW in records, then it was spent before he sent it to whatever debtor was supposed to get it.
I think if you want to stay with this man, you will have to put your foot down and completely seize ALL financial records and debt records away from him. You're not getting honesty from him. It will humiliate him. It will anger him. It will lead him to more lying, becasue he won't willingly disclose it ALL. That's why you're going to get a credit report on him so that you can see all current debts listed and to whom and how old they are and start from there.
He will not likely cooperate, but if you are married, these debts are now yours too and your assets can be seized in an attempt at collection.
If he doesn't like it and would rather live in his world of "what ifs" no matter how much pain and damage it causes you, feel free to ask him why his fantasy is so much more important than your financial well being.
As to living the rest of your life needing to control all of his finances...that's a question you have to settle at some other time. For now, action is required.
Um, thanks for the reply. I
Submitted by dazedandconfused on
Um, thanks for the reply. I do know that he has set up the payment plan with the one bank. I check the mail and therefore see the statements first, and I have seen the activity. He never got anything in writing though, which is something that I have urged him to do.
Same thing with the other bank. He did not get anything in writing about the settlement. The one thing that is out there is the bank that took the money; they have not issued a statement (to my knowledge) and I've asked him to get it from them because I want to know where the money went.
I have pulled his credit report in the past and I do know of some debts that he had while we were dating that he let go (because he didn't have the patience to sit on the phone with the debtor...I know, I know..). He has resolved those debts though. Its only these two that are still out there.
I don't think he is willfully deceptive; if he gets caught off guard and/or is scared he has a tendency to flub the truth. When it comes to finances, he either doesn't have the patience to deal with the creditors or tries to play mind games with them (i.e. "I don't care if you report me or not..."). That's why I have begged him to turn everything over to me, but I think his pride gets in the way. His parents were very old school, and so his dad took care of everything. I think I might try to sit down with him again and try to explain it in terms of "your ADD interferes with the ability to manage the finances" and/or "if you want to get back into your dream job, then you need to sort this out NOW."
Financial Matters
Submitted by MelissaOrlov on
I want to weigh in on this one...it is possible that he isn't fully aware of the outcomes of his financial actions...and it is also believable that he "flubs" the truth. However, you are aware of the financial issues and FabTemp is right - these are your debts, too.
One of the "myths" of ADD diagnosis is that once someone gets diagnosed then things get better. This isn't true. Once someone gets diagnosed, they now know what they are dealing with. But things don't get better until the person with the ADD comes to fully accept the consequences of having ADD, and adjusts his/her life to this new knowledge. That means treatment, and it also means changing how some things are done. This process - of finding what you can improve and what you can't, and figuring out how to do it, takes time. Your stress over the finances, however, suggests that your marriage doesn't have time in this particular arena.
SO, regardless of whether or not your husband saw his father take care of everything, it's time for him to hand the finances over to you. At least until your debt is cleared out, he has found a new job, and the two of you have a system in place that assures your relationship won't fail due to financial reasons. He needs to be spending time right now on the job search, in any event.
Consider talking with him about this in a way that relates to both your stress and to his ADD. You know him best, but perhaps you can approach this subject like this: "You can see that I am incredibly stressed out about our finances and you can also see that there has been some confusion around debt payments lately. While you may not want it to be this way, I think there is good reason for me to take on the management of all of our finances until we are on steadier financial ground. Not only will this help reassure me that agreements will be had in writing and payments won't get lost (which will help me sleep better at night) but it will free up precious time for you to focus on your main financial obligation - finding a new job you love. I know that my taking over the finances right now might make you feel uncomfortable but this has become such a big deal for me that it is making me physically ill - I must take this on so that I may be healthier and so that our relationship won't suffer so much strain."
If he still fights you, promise that you'll review all that you are doing financially with him once a week so that he won't feel out of touch. If THAT doesn't do it, then I would talk with your counselor about ways you can more aggressively force the issue.
He wants to make things better now that he knows about his ADD. This is the time to gently, but strongly, let him know one of the ways in which he can really help do this. Be aware that for him, the process of changing his life around to accomodate his ADD will take time to get used to. In other words, he will likely eventually see the wisdom of forsaking his "roots" and letting his wife be the financial caretaker, but to him right now it feels like a failure to be the man he expected to be. Hopefully you'll be able to talk with him about it in a way that he sees that he is a wonderful man in many ways - perhaps ways that don't always mirror his father - but that in others it's in his best interests to be flexible.
Thanks!
Submitted by dazedandconfused on
That was great advice Melissa. I appreciate you taking the time to respond. I'm hoping to sit down with him and try to have a calm discussion with him about it. Often times the stress is so bad that I hit the roof after only a few minutes. Hopefully I will be able to get through to him by using some of the techniques you suggested.
I have to say that even though I have only been looking around this site for the last two days, I have been extremely impressed. Kudos to you for developing this resource! And a big thanks!
seconding melissa's finances reply
Submitted by arwen on
I'd like to say that I think Melissa's suggestions are "right on the money"! Her recommendations mirror almost exactly the sequence of steps my ADD spouse and I went through after finding ourselves in circumstances very similar to your own. It did work. It has been almost 10 years since we did this, and incredibly our fights about money have dwindled to about twice a year. It wasn't easy to get my husband's initial agreement to let me have executive control of the finances, but it helped that I had a long established track record of being utterly scrupulous about money and about being honest and forthcoming with him. In our case, we were both working -- at some points I made more money than he, sometimes it was the other way around, and it helped that early on we had agreed that we each were entitled to some money for personal spending but that most of our incomes would be pooled and shared, independent of who earned more. We set up ground rules about how much money each could spend without consulting the other, and I make sure to keep him informed about our finances.
What we set up at that time was to have a joint account, where his whole paycheck, and mine, were deposited. We had automatic transfers set up to put about 10% of that money into each of our individual accounts, for monthly spending money. Very important in our situation, my husband did *not* have an ATM card for the joint account, only for his individual account. We also set up a second joint account for paying regular bills, and some of the paycheck monies were also automatically transferred there. This arrangement accomplished several important points. It made sure my husband did not have immediate easy access to the money, to avoid impulse buying, but he also was not cut off from access completely, so he didn't feel he had lost control. By putting the money needed for regular monthly bills in a separate account, he could see how much (or more frequently, how little!) money was available for any discretionary spending, if he wanted to look at the joint account. My husband did not have a check book all to himself, instead he had two checks from the check book that he kept in the deepest portion of his wallet, and I controlled the checkbooks. The fact that he didn't have a whole checkbook emphasized to him that he had restrictions, but having a couple of checks again helped avoid him feeling powerless. As far as credit cards were concerned, again we each already had an individual account plus we shared a joint account. The credit limit on his individual account is very small. I don't have access to monitor his individual bank or credit accounts real-time, but the damage he can do with them is limited, and I see the monthly statements for them. At the beginning I had to monitor the joint accounts pretty frequently, and deal with him forgetting some of the rules, but that improved gradually over the first couple of years. He came to realize fairly quickly, as I would go over the finances with him, that he really didn't understand how to manage money and that I did, and at that point, he surrendered completely his reservations about the arrangements.
In sum, our strategy was based on the principles of:
limiting but not cutting off my ADD spouse's access to funds
parcelling money into separate accounts with clearly defined purposes and access
consultations on expeditures above certain limits (which applied to both of us)
my monitoring of all activity (nearly all of it possible in real-time)
keeping my ADD spouse informed about status and money plans
reviewing rules and policies calmly as needed
I must warn, though, that when we set this up, online banking did not exist the way it does now, and I'm not sure this particular arrangement would work as well today. This also probably wouldn't work with an ADD spouse who deliberately *wants* to hide money from you. We have made some changes over time to address changing needs and circumstances, but we've kept the basic principles intact, and they continue to work for us.
I hope something in here is of value to you -- good luck!!!
Thanks Arwen...
Submitted by dazedandconfused on
I appreciate the feedback. I think the major take away is that we need to be depositing both of our checks into the joint account. Even my counselor told me that. Right now, my check goes in, but his check goes into his personal account, and then he transfers what I ask for the bills into the joint account. It doesn't work so well as I often end up carrying the brunt of the bills because he keeps back too much. He always underestimates his check (his hours vary so we don't have a good idea what is coming in until it comes in) apparently as I looked at his bank statement last night and saw that his checks were larger than he was leading me to believe.
I talked to him last night, and approached it from a "until you learn the tricks to help you handle the ADD better in regards to finances, it would be better if I could handle things." He didn't say yes or no, but said that he would think about it. Fortunately for us, he is generally not an impulse buyer (I remember once that he spent two weeks deciding on a set of sheets...it was crazy), and he doesn't use checks. He already doesn't have an ATM card for our joint account since it was my personal account at one time. He usually asks me before transferring funds out of our joint account into his personal one. I think the main issue is that he's not upfront about how much his check is...and that he doesn't understand the principle of paying all of the bills first, and then getting personal money. He hates not having enough money, so I think he is digging in against me because I feel so differently from him. I don't think he willfully hides money from me either...he just forgets what he does with it, as crazy as it sounds. I remember a couple months ago when I found out that he had spent $150 on eating out for work and other incidentals. He couldn't account for the full $150, and I was furious. I was like, "How do you not know what you spent the money on?"
All in all, I know he could be a lot worse. Its just trying to get him to let me take care of these two accounts so I won't be stressed all the time, and I know that his credit won't continue to suffer. I think he is capable of helping manage our finances, but until we can get some of these outstanding accounts settled, it would be best for my sanity and the sake of our marriage if I keep track of everything.
Thanks again!
where the money goes
Submitted by arwen on
Boy, do I know what you mean about being unable to understand not knowing where the money goes! My husband's idea of money management, pre-meds, was that if you have money, you spend it on whatever you think you need or really want, and if the money runs out, you stop spending it! (Eviction? Going hungry? Legal action? That couldn't happen to *him*, everybody knows he's a good guy and *wants* to meet his obligations, so nobody would ever think to act against him those ways.) So, there was no need to know exactly where the money went, it went to buy something you needed or really wanted and that's all you really need to know about it. Asking him to learn to manage money would have beenlike asking him to learn Chinese -- the entire *concept* of such a thing was completely foreign to him. My parents taught me sound money management when I was in my teens, and this whole attitude was incomprehensible to me. Now, thank goodness, he understands the need for it, even if he can't handle it himself.
My husband had the same
Submitted by newfdogswife on
My husband had the same vision in regards to money. Money was for spending with no thought about necessities first. It wasn't until I had had enough and put all of our debt down on paper for him to see. He finally woke up and I believe it actually scared him back into a small amount of reality.
debts
Submitted by brendab on
I have questions about this comment. "However, you are aware of the financial issues and FabTemp is right - these are your debts, too"
I can understand the huge problem women have when they sign for joint checking, savings, credit card or loans and their husband doesn't help earn money or he impulse buys against these accounts. If her name is on the account then of course she is responsible to pay for them regardless of whether he or she made the purchases. This is why I think the women here who close these accounts and open new ones with only her name on them are being very wise. He doesn't have access even if he is married to her.
So my main concern is this. If my husband opens his own personal credit card without my signature and makes purchases that do not benefit me am I responsible for those debts? It sounds unreasonable to me but there is a lot I don't know. Any of you attorneys that can give us some advice?
I hope I don't sound critical, I would just like some clarity.
Brenda
responsibility for debts
Submitted by arwen on
Brenda, I'm not a lawyer or expert, but my understanding is that in general, in "community property" states, your spouse's debts are also yours, regardless of whether both names appear on the account or not, *unless* you are *legally* separated and have published a public disclaimer of responsibility for your spouse's debts. (I looked into this when my spouse and I were separated.) In non-community-property states, your spouse's debts are not automatically yours, but they are considered yours if your name is on the account, *even if you didn't know the account existed*. In any event a debt collector can make your life pretty miserable in spite of the law. If you are just living with a partner, however, instead of being married, you are *not* responsible for your partner's debts, regardless of whether you are living in a community property state or not.
You ask about a situation where a spouse open a credit card without your signature and makes purchases that do not benefit you. In some community property states you would be considered responsible for those debts, in others you would not. Also, what *you* consider to be not of benefit to you might not be looked at that way by a court. If he has a hardware fetish, and is constantly buying expensive power tools, which you don't use and don't see as any benefit to you, a court might still consider them as being of benefit to the "joint estate" since they could be used for the improvement or maintenance of the home or property, and you'd still be stuck.
My conclusion has been that if an ADD spouse has a problem with debts, and refuses to allow the non-ADD spouse to handle the finances, the only financial recourse the non-ADD spouse has is to obtain a legal separation and publish the disclaimer -- and then deal with the debt collectors as best as possible.
debt responsibility
Submitted by brendab on
Hi Arwen,
Thanks for letting me know what you learned. When I did a google search I found some of what you have written. if I marry I would choose a non community property state or I will not get a state marriage license. One thing I did learn was that suing a spouse who did not sign for the loan is so complicated that many creditors will not pursue it. Unless there is a huge loss they will usually just write off the debt or send it to collections under the signer's name. But I understand how credit collectors can make life miserable calling the house, sending threatening letters etc.
On the other hand a judge has a lot of power to make a nonsigner pay in the event of a divorce. This is why I don't really want a state license and will probably get have a marriage covenant drawn up to avoid state interference in my life. This covenant will not be filed with the state either, but will state exactly what our obligations to each other are. I am a huge believer in committment and getting a piece of paper from the state doesn't mean a whole lot these days.
my boyfriend does not impulse buy and has very little debt, but he does procrastinate paying his regular bills and tends to overdraft his checking and go over the limit on his credit card which has only like a $1500 credit limit. We have discussed the fact that I will never enter any joint debt or checking account with him because it would just create too much stress and chaos for me. He agrees that I should handle all finances and he will operate with "cash only" like he did in his younger days. He considers his word his bond and I have watched him honor his word so i believe that he will do so and if he doesn't then I will place strong boundaries around my own finances. Any relationship carries its own risk and sometimes we just do the best we can and choose a person who has a fundamental desire to be flexible and work through issues. Thanks for your info,
Brenda
keep the money simple
Submitted by arwen on
Brenda, you sound like you have a very wise head on your shoulders on this topic. The only caveat I would like to note is that your boyfriend's behavior now may not be an indication of some aspects of what it would be like later. Before my husband and I married, he also did not impulse buy and had very little debt, and did not procrastinate about his regular bills and did not overdraft his checking (he did not have a credit card). I could see how he was handling his money and I thought I was marrying a guy who was really responsible about finances. But after we married, and over time, there were more bills -- e.g. his utilities and property tax were previously included in his rent, after we married and bought a home, the utilities and taxes had to be paid separately; he hadn't carried any life or home/renter's insurance before we married, did carry them afterward; etc etc. He started having trouble paying bills on time because there were too many for him to keep track of -- and he'd forget about some of them and then think he had more money to spend than he really did, so he started having overdraft problems, too. He'd also have trouble setting aside money for semi-regular things, like paying the dentist whatever the insurance didn't cover. Also, he hadn't had any investments before we married, but when he got a job with a large corporation, he started putting money into a savings plan. Unfortunately, he didn't monitor it at all -- it turns out that he understands the fundamental concept of investment, but he doesn't understand how real investment works at all -- and when the investments tanked, that money was lost. It all eventually overwhelmed him and he gave up managing his money altogether, but didn't say anything to me because he didn't think it was that much of a problem.
I didn't know what was going on until we needed money for a large unplanned expense, and not only was the money not there, I found out he was in a lot of financial trouble. He didn't keep it from me because he was trying to deceive me -- he really didn't understand that he was in as much trouble as he was. His view had become, "well, now I have a real good job with a good employer and they like my work, so I don't have to worry about my income, and if I have a money problem that goes beyond that, *somebody* will be willing to loan me money because I know I'm a good guy so they'll know that too". So he just didn't worry or even think about it anymore, as far as he was concerned it couldn't possibly be that serious a problem, and there were other much more interesting things demanding his attention.
In sum, although he'd been able to deal with a very simple money system as a young single man, as his financial life became more populated and more complicated, just by the very nature of ordinary life when you marry and have kids, he couldn't deal with it, and a lot of bad behaviors developed. It took me a long time to understand the nature of my husband's financial problems, and he never really did understand them -- we went through many iterations of money management structures over many years before we found a paradigm that works for us.
So, don't make the mistake I did! Keep it *simple*!