Here is a little background for you. I am new to the site but many of the stories are too painfully up my alley.
My husband and I have been together for seven years, but only married since last August. We have had a difficult time and I have made many compromises because of his ADD, which he has not sought help for until now, after I have become a basket case, begging him to do something about it. Three days before our wedding he was fired from his job for an irresponsible decision he made. I had never known financial instability because I have always been insane about the bills being paid, and we always had MY income and student loans to cover anything else. Since his job loss he has done little to assert himself to get a job. He "looks" for work "on the internet" and "applies" with a premade template that I made him where he just has to fill in the blanks, but I know there is no follow up, no REAL effort and we are so financially stricken it's not even funny. Still, his lethargy became so severe and it made me realize that the other things I have "put up with" in our relationship (drugs, no sex drive, "laziness", inability to keep promises, and always saying he will change but NO progress). It took poverty to make me realize it though - it took ME hitting rock bottom. I never thought that he would WILLINGLY not provide for me and that I would ever be in a relationship where I can honestly say I cannot depend on my partner.
At first I thought of all sorts of ways I could show him how disappointed I was. I tried the crying, the yelling, the manipulation, the shame, the punishment, mothering, nagging -- all of it I hate. The only way anything ever gets done is with the nagging, but this has stopped more recently as I have been reading about how to care for myself. Nagging makes me MAD at me -- and mad at him, but mostly I just hate the way it makes me feel. I feel so resentful because I just want to be able to depend on him.
The biggest issue is that he does not follow through and that he has all these goals for himself but he is self destructive and unable to complete the basic goals. We communicate, we talk and talk and talk and he will ALWAYS say "yes i will do it" and I almost always end up disappointed. Except this time, it's not doing the dishes or taking the garbage out, it's getting a job and providing for us because I can't do it by myself.
So that's the background...not really the question. My problem is more specific. I need to know that the newest strategy we have is healthy. So here it is...
I believe that ultimatums are dangerous, but we have set boundaries in order to establish what I won't put up with any longer. My problem is the "punishment" for him breaking the boundary. THAT is what hasn't stuck in the past. Getting mad, sad, or just telling him how disappointed I am ONLY leads to "I'm sorry, i'll change" which leads back to him breaking his promises, crossing those boundaries.
This week I established the things that I needed him to do, and let him define a goal that he accepted would work for him.
Our biggest problem, hands down, is his not looking hard enough for work. So I said "This is what I need" so he said "I will produce to you 30 jobs that I have applied to by the end of the week" and to make things clear I said to him that I needed to have copies of the cover letters or some tangible proof that he has completed this task. So he met my need with a verbal agreement. But I needed more because I needed him to be aware of a consequence outside of me being mad. So I asked him to come up with something that would be a consequence should he break the agreement and he came up with "no TV during the hours of 9-5 all week after" if he couldn't produce 30 jobs applied to. I agreed to that. To make things MORE complicated and because he has broken SO many promises to me and disregarded so many consequences I told him that if he was caught watching TV during the hours of 9-5 on the week that he wasn't supposed to, that I would stay at my parents for a week. (this is because one time I let him make up his own consequence and he broke the consequence, so now I feel like I have to make consequences for breaking consequences!)
That was on Monday. It is Saturday night and I have sat back and BIT MY TONGUE as my husband has slept til 2pm, watched hours of TV and lazed around the house. I know that there aren't going to be 30 jobs for him to show me tomorrow when I ask for them. I know that he will be all "I guess I can't watch TV" instead of recognizing that he has HURT ME, because my words don't seem to matter to him anymore because he has heard it so many times. But what then? What if I catch him watching TV? I work from home as I am a photography editor, so I will know if he does it. Then i just leave for a week?
I can't think of anything else that would "punish" him. I am the only thing he wants because he has put us in a situation where we have NOTHING ELSE. I don't know what else to do. I feel like a dictator or something. I would not be leaving him permanently but at the same time what happens after a week and then I come home and he still hasn't changed? I just, I don't know what to do!!!! How do you set a boundary with a man who you can't trust or depend on? There has to be OTHER consequences other than "no tv" (which sounds very mother/son relationshipy) and me leaving...but I feel like there isn't. I feel like i have exhausted all possibilities.
I have told him that I will not divorce him or legally separate with him before he has had a chance to see a counselor, but we have to wait for that to happen because our Canadian coverage is limited. They have to call us to set up an appointment, and that could take months. It's okay because I have been dealing with this for so long I know that I am capable of dealing with this some more -- but what in the meantime? I can't cry myself to sleep anymore. I can't watch my health disintegrate before my very eyes. I am totally isolating myself, not going out with friends, not wanting to see anyone because I am just sick of everything, no energy. I try to stay hopeful with every bit of strength in me because in all honesty I love him and I miss the way things were when we were financially more stable. He broke promises then too but I donno, we were in a better state where we could communicate better and I trusted that we could get through it. I don't trust that anymore. I am worried that the love that I have for him will just waste away into resentment and then apathy.
I just want to know how to negotiate. How do I make consequences for him breaking clearly set out boundaries?
Wow! You are living my life
Submitted by Sueann on
I married my husband and 2 months later he lost his job for hanging up on customers. Very ADD, could not deal with frustrating customers so he just hung up.
Then he didn't look for a job for 2 1/2 years. I supported us, and we did without a lot of things, including healthcare for my serious medical issues. (You Canadians have it easy. In the US, your healthcare is determined by your job.) Then he got meds, and started a job he loves. He got fired 2 weeks ago and as of now, has done 2 applications. (I do several every day.) I'm not working either and if neither of us has a job by the end of the month, we have to separate and live with our individual family members in different cities. He swears that isn't what he wants but he is doing nothing to stop it. In this case it is a natural consequence, not an artificial one.
I do not know what the answer is. I am screaming with frustration. I just want you to know you are not alone.
Start selling things...like
Submitted by SherriW13 on
Start selling things...like the TV for example...to pay the bills...and continue to sell his stuff...until he finds a job. Downgrade your life to the point that he won't be able to tolerate it. Cut off the cable. "sorry, without you working, we cannot afford it". Give him a month to find a job and then downgrade to the point that you move in with your parents, and he lives on the street, until he gets a job. As long as he's not working and still enjoying life (TV, comptuer? video games?) then he won't be motivated to work. You don't have to leave him, but there are many ways to make him feel the sting of his refusal to work. Just be creative. Don't mention to him "I'm cutting off the cable" just call and do it. Sell the TV. Tell him to get busy pawning/selling his stuff...telling him you need X amount by the end of the week to pay the rent/mortgage. Get serious...or he never will. His consequences should be that he has nothing to do but stare at four blank walls and has nothing to eat but Ramen noodles...
(((HUGS)))
Sherri, your answer was better than mine
Submitted by Sueann on
I just can't figure out how to hurt him without hurting me too. I would miss the cable/tv as much or more than he would. We do need a computer to file unemployment if nothing else, not to mention that a lot of job hunting is on the internet. (My husband is going to start getting his unemployment this week. His company did not fight it.)
I wish I could get the solitaire and stuff off the computer, but it comes with them. That is where my husband wastes his time. But the computer is actually my separate property, it came from my sister.
I agree with this suggestion!
Submitted by doublej on
I think this was a great suggestion. Sell things! Raise money! :)
Hmm. I guess it's a
Submitted by Newlywed on
Hmm.
I guess it's a tough situation. I actually disagree with selling HIS stuff. I think that's a violation. Almost like stealing? The only things that he owns are the TV and his laptop. The TV is something that I enjoy and I would miss it. We don't pay for cable. We don't rent movies. We don't buy video games. I just feel like this is the wrong thing to do. I feel like that's like 100 times the punishment system or something?? I don't mean to sound like I am disregarding your advice, AT ALL. Really, I am grateful for the response. I just feel...much more of a dictator by doing something so drastic. AND something that will effect ME and the way that I relax. Am I to be punished too? I just feel like "taking away his toys" permanently is "angry angry mothering".
I do want to thank you for your input. I just am not comfortable with this.
Don't sell it behind his back
Submitted by doublej on
Newlywed,
I don't think you should sell it without his being a part of it. I guess I thought the situation was fairly dire in that he hasn't had a job. If you don't need the money, then selling stuff doesn't make sense. I assumed you needed money without him working.
JJ
I don't see how telling him
Submitted by SherriW13 on
I don't see how telling him "we need to start selling some of our stuff to make ends meet unless you get a job" is anymore drastic than letting him go without working and not helping you take care of the family. I can concede that including him in on the discussion would be much more respectful than selling his stuff without him knowing, but if you're talking survival here, what other options do you have? I don't mean to criticize you, I swear I don't..I cannot fathom what it must be like having to feel so unappreciated and helpless when trying to support the family all by yourself, but you are enabling this situation or it wouldn't be happening. You're taking care of him and he's getting all he needs/wants or he wouldn't be so happy to not work. I'm not suggesting you quit your job and lose everything you have to make him suffer 'natural consequences' but in all of these marriages, in one way or the other, many of us are enablers to the exact behavior we are trying so hard to get them to stop. Myself included. Just food for thought.
((HUGS))
Sherri
The ADD Side of This
Submitted by ADD Wife on
Great post with great questions! I would LOVE for more of the non-ADHD spouses like Sherri to respond to this (please!!).
I am the ADD spouse in my relationship and I don't know either what my DH should do to best support me and hold me accountable. But what I DO know for sure is that the parent-child dynamic is NOT HEALTHY for the relationship! You are totally treating your husband like a child, giving instructions, outlining your expectations, and even coming up with punishments and consequences or asking him to come up with his own. Just the THOUGHT of that makes me feel a little sick, not because of the accountability it would create, but because it just seems so WRONG for a spouse to be doing that. Or at least to be verbalizing it that way. Now, let me say first off that all of us would agree (probably including him!?) that his behavior is unacceptable and that you have to do SOMETHING. But you are his wife, not his mother. Believe me, I can completely understand WHY you would resort to parenting, and my DH does it too sometimes. But trust me, it is NOT the best method. As you have already witnessed, it does not produce the desired result, and I believe it serves to further "paralyze" the ADD spouse so that we are actually LESS CAPABLE and less motivated to do what you are asking us to do in the first place. It creates a lot of shame and resentment. I mean, seriously--how would you FEEL if someone treated YOU like a child?
Now, the problem with this is that our behavior is often very child-ISH. So what is the RIGHT way for you to react and respond? Honestly, I am not sure. I am hoping to get some input on this from our new counselor and/or ADD coach. And this is why I would love to hear from non-ADHD spouses in relatively healthy relationships to hear what works for them?
All I know to do right now is think about what I think would help me as an ADD spouse. And what I think I would want is to calmly talk together (in a time of non-conflict!) and identify the things that we each think are the (my/our) problems or issues, and then come to some agreement about which are the most important to work on--to prioritize them somewhat. This needs to be done in a very neutral way so that the issues/problems are just "facts"--NOT MORAL FAILURES--and then we work together AS A TEAM to seek out creative and practical solutions that I can be excited about. Now comes the hard part...the execution and accountability. Ideally (hey--I'm just throwing it out there, but I know there is no such things as achieving the ideal), my DH would encourage me to TRY what we've come up with, but also allow me the "freedom to fail" with the understanding that it MIGHT NOT WORK and we might need to think of another idea OR to just try again. And if we do find something that seems to help, the main thing I need at that point is for him to be patient when I am inconsistent. Because I WILL be inconsistent! Hopefully I will be making PROGRESS, though, even if it is "two steps forward, one step back" - at least I am moving forward. And then I need encouragement to keep trying when I fall or fail ("You're doing a great job! Don't get discouraged just because you missed a day or hyperfocused on something else. Maybe you needed a break and maybe something else needed to take priority for awhile. Just try it again because it worked great and you were doing fabulous!").
[By the way, let me interject here that my DH's definition of "encourage" has been very different from mine. To me, "encourage" means to BUILD ME UP so as to give me hope and confidence that I CAN and WILL succeed eventually, even if it takes awhile or if I fail at first. To him, "encourage" often means to nag or push or hold me accountable. These are NOT the same thing. The word literally translates "to put courage into" - THAT'S WHAT I NEED...COURAGE to overcome my paralyzing fear of failure!!!]
And slowly but surely, maybe the new system will become a routine or a habit and I won't need so much cheerleading all the time. But, and listen carefully here!, I WILL FAIL AGAIN AT SOME POINT for a day, a week, or maybe longer. My reaction will be to shut down, quit or give up. You need to be ready for this to happen so that YOU don't have the same reaction! And now your job is critical: ENCOURAGE me! And I mean truly PUT COURAGE INTO ME--this is when I am more afraid than ever of failing...because I already DID. So to get back up and try again or start over is a HUGE risk where I have already proven that failure is all too possible and maybe probable!
Your husband was FIRED. He FAILED. Getting another job will create the potential to be fired and fail AGAIN. But without a job, he cannot get fired! He may genuinely be paralyzed by fear. It is not a conscious decision that "Oh, I don't want to get a job because I might get fired again and that made me feel terrible, embarrassed and ashamed." We do not THINK that. We just FEEL it and FEAR it. So you must climb into his fears and try to understand them. That is the ONLY way you will be able to help him to climb back out. Stop considering his actions (or inactions) as simple immaturity or laziness. There is SO much more to it. Yes, the BEHAVIOR appears childish, but he is NOT a child. He is a mature adult with complex thought processes and emotions, but with very little ability to control them or overcome them due to his ADHD. Stop treating him like a child and treat him like a partner who NEEDS YOUR SUPPORT.
Just my two cents, and I hope to get a LOT more insight myself from counselors, coaches and others who are struggling through this just like my DH and I. I hope things improve for you and your husband!
Thanks for your reponse. It's
Submitted by Newlywed on
Thanks for your reponse. It's interesting to hear from an ADD perspective.
You are right about the child/mothering thing and it's HARD to break from it. I don't WANT to do it. I don't WANT to be married to a child but I NEED to see progress. I need to know he is trying. So how do you SEE progress or SEE him trying without ASKING for it?
AND THEN, when they don't give you progress. HOW MUCH do you put it up with it? seriously? I have put up with it for so long! I have supported him....supported and encouraged. I DID THAT. I've done that. I STILL DO IT. It's not all mother/child here. There is a lot of encouragement, but encouragement I feel is not ALL he needs or something. It's like yay it makes him feel good but the problems don't go away, and I don't see the progress so I get upset and I want to demand that I don't deserve this. It's all a big circle. I try and I try to be encouraging and it makes me feel good and I want to say "this is what a wife DOES! yay!! I am a wife again!" and it lasts until the next day (or something more or less days) and then he is sitting around or not trying...and then the more and more you try to encourage after that, the more and more it turns into nagging, and then nagging turns into resentment and anger and then you say "I don't derserve this!" AGAIN and you are back to square one.
How long then do you put up with THAT circle? When is it EVER his responsibility to say "look what I am putting us through??" and actually break the cycle? I realize we need to break the cycle TOGETHER but I am TRYING. I swear to god I am trying! He needs to do HIS part. So the only way I feel like I can VISIBLY see him do his part is by making clear boundaries where each one of us has to fufill our end of the agreement. Like "I won't nag you if you get 30 jobs done by the end of the week" -- but then if the 30 jobs aren't done....and I haven't nagged, am I just supposed to say "okay hun, try harder, you can do it!" He can do it. I KNOW HE CAN. I almost feel dumb having to tell him like he is a little baby. He knows he can. BE A MAN, I want to say. BE A MAN and do it. I don't say that though because that is hurtful.
Argh. I feel like a poowife! I just wish I knew how to be. I wish I knew how to be the correct key to unlock it.
I Don't Know
Submitted by ADD Wife on
I honestly don't know the answer to the question of what to do if the encouragement method doesn't work. We have been there too in our relationship. I may have the best of intentions but if i don't follow through, what SHOULD my DH do? I really am not sure. I did NOT mean to make you feel bad. You are NOT a bad wife! You are trying so hard and you are doing the only thing you know to do out of desperation. I just wanted to try to give you his possible perspective on it.
But I do think you need to try to REALLY identify and empathize with his fears...deep down. YES, he must take responsibility for the problems he has caused or is still causing. My guess is that he does do this at least verbally, right? If so, then he WANTS to "be a man" and he WANTS to be doing better. But he has NO IDEA how and is afraid that he CAN'T. The added element here is that for men, not being able to provide for their family is a big blow to their self-esteem. Almost all adults with ADD have low self-esteem to begin with, then you add the damaged ego AND the fact that he was fired (vs. losing his job for reasons out of his control)--he is totally overwhelmed, defeated and scared to death. Now add the pressure of his wife checking behind him to see if he "passed" or "failed" today or this week. He doesn't WANT to fail you--in fact, pleasing you and making you proud of him is probably the thing he wants most in the whole wide world--and so he he promises NOT to fail you and even agrees to all the "consequences," because he fully INTENDS to succeed, but he knows (or at least fears) that he will FAIL.
So he cannot seem to make himself DO anything. He wants to. Every night he goes to sleep with the knowledge and feeling that tomorrow is a new day with all those free hours to get so much done! And every day he wakes up thinking about how much he is going to be able to accomplish that day. But then he can't; he doesn't. And all day long he keeps thinking, "In just a minute I will start making phone calls. In just a minute I will update my resume. In just a minute I will check that website for new postings." etc. But he cannot seem to muster up the energy or the will to STOP doing whatever it is that he is hyper-focused on instead (playing video games, watching TV, surfing the Internet, etc.) to START doing what he genuinely PLANNED to do. Then...he hears you pulling in the driveway or opening the door. Uh-oh. Now he has to admit to you that he has wasted yet ANOTHER day OR he has to figure out a way to cover for himself. Or maybe he did do enough that he has SOMETHING he can "report" that to you so it sounds like he was actually productive. I HAVE BEEN IN THIS PLACE!!! He may even be depressed (I was). He is so mad at himself! But he really can't even show you how much he cares or how frustrated he is with himself, because he thinks that if you realize that he KNOWS what a "loser" he is acting like, then he will really HAVE TO change. But he thinks/knows he CAN'T. He is trapped.
PLEASE UNDERSTAND THIS FEAR. He is trapped by FEAR. Fear of not being able to get a job. Fear of failing you. Fear of disappointing you. Fear that he really IS a loser. Fear that if he tries REALLY HARD to find a job, he will have to explain to someone why he lost his last one. Fear that if he tries AS HARD AS HE CAN to find a job and can't, he will have to admit that he is truly a FAILURE. As long as he is not trying as hard as he can, he has the feeling that he WOULD be able to succeed IF he really tried. He is afraid of PROVING to you and himself that he is not CAPABLE. These fears are PARALYZING. And the more pressure he feels from you, the more he fears that he will disappoint you. I know he is already disappointing you (and he knows this too!) but this way he is disappointing you because he is not trying rather than because he IS A FAILURE. There is a big difference! He does not want to PROVE to you that he is a failure when he knows and fears that is what you think already!
Please do not feel bad! You have every right to be frustrated and angry!!! But if you can try to understand what might be going on in his head, you may be able to find the compassion to respond in a way that gives him the COURAGE to really try. Let him know how much you love him and believe in him and respect him. Let him know that no matter WHAT happens in the job search, that you are proud of him and that you will not give up on him. Remind him that it is hard for ANYBODY to find a job right now, so it has nothing to do with his capabilities and skills and talent, and that you KNOW he will find something eventually! Build him UP with confidence so that he can release at least SOME of the fears. The fear of losing your respect or belief in him may be just too much on top of the fear of failure that he already has.
Just some more stuff to think about! I can't guarantee this is what he is thinking or feeling, but these are some possibilities to consider. Depending on how much you know about ADD, much of what I described are CLASSIC symptoms (hyperfocus, failure to be able to STOP, failure to be able to START, procrastination, poor sense of the passage of time, etc., etc., etc.,). If you are not familiar with these symptoms, PLEASE read about it and study up on it. It will help you so much! Good luck.
definitely the wrong approach...
Submitted by ellamenno on
but I can TOTALLY understand your frustration...
Another ADDer perspective here...
Sherri is right. The only thing that really works are natural consequences. Take yourself out of the equation. If there is no money for cable: there goes the cable. YOU are not "punishing" him, the money simply isn't there. But perhaps, instead of calling and canceling it without discussing it, (if he's blind-sided, he may feel you are 'punishing' him and the parent/child dynamic is still there) you could sit down with him one day with your bank statement and the bills and show him the numbers and say, "Hm... need your help here... we've got $6,000 worth of payments every month and only $5,000 in the bank. Where should we cut our budget? If we cut out cable, beer and some of our food budget maybe we can keep the house a while longer..."
I have been trying to get work for 8 months and have some part time stuff. I am also a stay at home mom with an almost 2 year old. When I first arrived in this city I was paralyzed with fear and did just what your husband did: applying for stuff online but not really following through and calling and being really aggressive. I was AFRAID to make those calls because I feel like such a fraud. I've been applying for jobs that I haven't had any experience with in 8 years and my resume is totally outdated and full of holes so i'm terrified. I could hardly get out the door because of the fear. Finally in December I got diagnosed and got medication. I've gotten some part time work and am volunteering a lot around the neighborhood to try to build a network to build a private music class business. Right now we are draining my parents' retirement fund to break even here and it's killing me. I feel awful. I know my husband hates it too. I'm 41 years old and i'm still sponging off my parents and it's making me sick.
I'm sure your husband wants things to get better. try some encouragement and show him the numbers. That's worked for me. (not in terms of actually GETTING a job - since it seems the market/competition is too much for me still - but at least i'm taking action instead of just making promises).
My husband will be 50 this year....
Submitted by Sueann on
and we're still sponging off his mother. Now we are looking to send him to live with her, while I live with my daughter and family because he lost his job. Unlike most of the other wives on here (and me previously), I am not able to take up the slack as I don't have a job either.
I know it was devastating for him, he loved that job. It was set aside for people with mental illness and if he couldn't handle it, what CAN he do? Why couldn't he keep track of his phone and his debit card and force himself to write good notes? But I know he will not find a job if he doesn't apply for any.
The stakes are very high for us. We won't live together any more if he doesn't solve this. And every time I look into the computer room he's playing solitaire. Why?
I can relate to a bunch of
Submitted by Hermie40 (not verified) on