Some months ago, I started to post here, when I was coping with the failure of my relationship.
I told my experience in two threads, so I will not repeat any of it:
http://www.adhdmarriage.com/content/lowering-my-own-standards-accomodate...
http://www.adhdmarriage.com/content/add-and-selfishness
My Ex-SO has certainly some serious traits that are typical for ADD, and also some of Asperger's. But with further research, I came to the conclusion that the behavior, which destroyed the relationship, was also narcissistic. Yet when I started to post here, it was after reading, that so many of the other posters have experienced the same kind of devastation due to the apparent or real selfishness and inconsideraton.
That made me wonder, if I was busy with a wrong question, when I attempted to find out, if what destroyed the relationship was ADD or Narcissism, as if both are mutually exclusive.
ADD and Aspeger's traits are considered as hardwired into the brain, while NPD is supposed to be acquired as a reaction to childhood trauma.
- Could it be, that a child, who experiences serious failure and troubles because of having ADD reacts with developping narcissism as a strategy to cope with low self-esteem?
- Could the selfish, inconsiderate, hurting behaviors, that are so often experienced by the partners of ADD-men, are a form of acquired comorbid narcissism?
- Could there roughly be two subgroups of ADD-men, those who have the insight of having a problem, needing and accepting support, and those, who have developped a narcissistic entitlement and grandiosity delusion, so that they deny to have any problem, instead attributing the partner's devastation as her own flaw?
You bring up some very
Submitted by newfdogswife on
You bring up some very interesting questions. I have researched NPD a little as my ADHD husband experienced a childhood trauma with the death of his father at a young age. Looking back, as he was growing up, he experienced many of the traits of NPD and OPD. All of your questions could quite possibly help someone better understand why their relationship is different. I know in my case, all of my research on all of these disorders have given us many answers on why our relationship has been awful. My husband continues to be a part of both subgroups of ADD-men, as you put it, he knows he has problems, is taking meds and gets therapy but still has narcissistic behaviors ever so often.
Some Additional Thoughts
Submitted by at_the_crossroa... on
newfdogswife, thanks for your feedback. Maybe the subgroups are not exclusive but two extremes on a scale.
Researching the web about Narcissism, I came across a controversy between two main concepts of defining NPD. I could call it the Vaknin vs. Cooper controversy based on the main proponents.
In one of them, Narcissism is considered malignant, the narcissist enjoys hurting the victim, it is considered as incurable.
The other form is considered as pathological, but not malignant, the narcissist is not aware or does not care about the suffering of the victim, hurting the victim is collateral pain, not pain for the purpose of hurting, and it is supposed to be curable.
I have been wondering, if both really are the same, even though they are both diagnosed along the DSM. Could the malignant variety be NPD as an independent disorder, while the other form is comorbid narcissism caused by ADD and other problems that are hardwired in the brain?
Reading lots of sad stories and painful experiences on this forum, many sound similar to the experiences of the victims of narcissists, but I cannot remember to have read anything about experiencing sadistic behavior.
NPD...could be.....
Submitted by metooo on
I've been a member of Kim Cooper's site on NPD for a couple years. I didn't consider my husband could have ADHD until he told me he has it. But yes, I've wondered if the two can be comorbid. It sure seems like it.
I usually can't write much because he's usually home.
I'll write more later.
Hi there,
Submitted by sara dunne on
Hi there,
Im a newie, yep! Iam in the same position!
Covert narcissism or ADD
either way
flipping horrible!
x
I know this post is an old one
Submitted by AdeleS6845 on
My ex-husband was/is a narcissist.
The term is widely used nowadays, in fact I think it's over used to describe people. When you live with a narcissist you know it. The Mind Games, gaslighting, verbal abuse. My ex husband's facial expression when he hurt me? He definitely enjoyed it. He knew full well what he was doing.
As the victim of it and when you're in it you don't really care whether it's curable or not. Whether it's pathological or malignant. My only cure after over a decade of abuse by his hands was to leave. No one in my family, no one in his family knew the extent of the abuse, the damage it did and what it cost me. You see, he only did those things to me when no one else was looking. It was all quite Insidious and well-thought-out.
I was a bitch for leaving him because he was " such a great guy."
And on an added note my fiance as ADHD. He is the one of the sweetest, kindest, most genuine people I have met. We are not married yet and are not living together, and I don't believe that when we do he will flip like a switch like my ex-husband did. ADHD and NPD could possibly exist in the same person. But I do know the difference between the two and my eyes are wide open.
<3
Submitted by Sollertiae on
This is a great comment Adele, and a timely reminder that NPD is horrible and a very different to someone showing narcissistic tendencies (versus an actual personality disorder). Especially that enjoyment of hurting people. Thank you.
I have to disagree
Submitted by Miss Behaven on
The narcissist has no self so he needs other people to tell them who they are. ADD people are filled with self, we need people to tell us "where we are"
The narcissist is hollow with a "glittery, shiny outside" ADDers are often unpolished with a "glittery, shiny, inside"
The narcissist is a creature of culture. The ADD person is often on the outside of culture.
A narcissist sees other only as a reflection of themselves and care nothing for other people. ADD people often struggle with shame, guilt and self loathing for letting other people down.
There’s the obvious point that both ADD and NPD sufferers can often seem self absorbed but I think that’s probably the only similarity. ADD personality's benefit seeking is very short sighted and therefore it can be easily perceived as selfish.
It is sometimes a case that a person with ADD pursues excitement at working place - in a form of competition - is perceived as a narcissist by others.
A narcissit care nothing about the feeling of others, except that the other person loves, adores and admires them. They dismiss everything else. ADDers fail to understand people's feelings. It makes them often confused, they don't understand why people get so angry, but they do care that the other person is angry (etc).
It is a typical method by an ADDer to confront the environment with which they are always in conflict - because they don't really understand it. Narcissts understand their environment well enough to manipulate the world around them and others often without the other people realising it.
Adders loose tracks of things, especially details. Narcissts rely on the ability to tell a lie and keep it going, they tell whole bundles of lies and can keep track of them and know what they have told to whom, they can keep track of details.
ADDers may choose to "deny" that they have "done wrong" this "denial" is fairly well known as a coping mechanism, and, most importantly, the ADD person "internalizes" the conflict--"What is wrong with me? What can't I finish projects? Why am I always late?". The TRUE narcissist believes in their mind that they have done NOTHING wrong-period, end of story. There is no internal debate going on in their head.
NPDs get mad at everyone else when "it's not all about" them. ADDers get annoyed at themselves for not fitting in.
There is an extremely large difference between Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and a person who has some, and/or mild, narcissistic tendencies.
Can the two disorders be co-morbid? Probably... anything could show up as a comorbid of ADD, but that would be a rare and awfully scary beast!
I have known male and a female narcissists and I can smell them coming. They are not like people with ADD, and not anything like myself, my hubby or any ADDers in my family or circle of friends. Most people with ADD are incredibly sweet people.
This is a problem with DSM and psychology. They describe behaviours out of context.
unsuccessfull narcissists?
Submitted by at_the_crossroa... on
MIss Behaven, you are perfectly right, that people with ADD do not have NPD, and I did not make any claim that they would.
I am only wondering, if there is a subgroup of people, whose ADD has caused them to become Narcissists with some specific differences to Narcissists, who have no ADD.
My Ex is the prototype of this. I could call him an unsuccessful narcissist. He has the entire mindset of a narcissist, entitlement and grandiosity delusion, envy, dominance, disrespect, devaluation, egocentrism, lack of empathy. But he has no skill whatsoever to manipulate people, he is much too impulsive to lie or play games. He would not have cheated me, because he had no skill in charming women. He could not control himself to stop interrupting people and listen instead.
It was an dysfunctional combination of ADD-like behavior with the motivation to get narcissistic supply. I was just wondering, if he is a unque case or if this is, what happens, when a child with ADD becomes narcissistic.
sounds more like Aspergers
Submitted by Miss Behaven on
Honestly, that sounds more like Aspergers to me, which does show up with ADD a lot. But you know your man more than I do.
I just don't think that narcissistic behaviours and though patterns are likley to be produced in an ADD child. The very key factors you need to become a narcissits (my father in law and one of my sisters in law are) are just about impossible to achieve with ADD. A narcissisit needs to be able to control, lie and manipulate in order to be one. I'm sure its possible but there are other things that are more likley to be comorbid.
The following parenting behaviors may result in a child becoming a narcissist in adulthood:
ADD kids are not given excessive praise, they are rarely spoiled and they are never idealized. ADD children are given the very opposite type of childhood, looked down on, a dissapoinment to the family, never good enough, called a lazy bum etc.
Interrupting as an example
Submitted by at_the_crossroa... on
Yes, my Ex also has some Asperger's trait in addition to the impulsiveness and impatience of ADD. But according to what he told me, he also has perceived some events in his childhood as traumatic, which could have been a trigger for narcissism.
Last autumn, I had reached the point, when I could not take his hurtful behavior any longer and had given him an ultimatum for drastic change by finally talking about our conflicts. Instead, he just left, it was the third time, that he has dumped me. In my attempt to find closure, I started posting here.
Since then, 4 months after leaving, he recontacted me, he wanted and probably still wants me back. I told him, that I do not even consider this, as long as he does not start therapy. To my big surprise, he started to see a therapist, and therefore I corresponded with him by email (there is an ocean between us) for about ten weeks. Then I ended all contact with him, because nothing had changed, his emails were as hurtful as his behavior had been. He had not recontacted me based on the insight, that he has to contribute his share to make the relationship less painful for me. He recontacted me under the firm belief, that my feeling hurt by his behavior was my own flaw, and that after being left to suffer 4 months of loneliness, I would finally submit to his superiority and happily crawl back to be his doormat again.
I blocked his emails and told him so, but I am not sure, if he will not try other means of communication, because he was in absolute and complete denial, that his treatment of me is beyond what I would ever again allow him to do to me. It just did not reach his brain, that he cannot have me back and continue the same domination and depreciation as there had been. No matter, how cold, short and unfriendly my mails, in his emails he treated me as if I were the one begging to be allowed back.
This is, what got me wondering about the comorbidity of ADD and Narcissism.
The following is an oversimplification: I understand the DSM, that naricssism is a disorder of thinking, of a subjectively rational justification of selfishness based on the delusion of grandiosity and entitlement, while the abilitiy to act accordingly is not impaired. I do not see the capacity to manipulate in the DSM, only the justification to manipulate as much as the skill allows.
ADD seems to be a problem of controlling the own behavior in accordance with the own thinking and motivation, and reacting in an appropriate way to the environment, while the ability to evaluate, what is correct behavior according to the own values, is not impared.
This means that the outwardly same behavior could be an unwanted lack of impulse control, or a deliberate narcissistic act, or the narcissistic delusion to be entitled not to need self-control.
My Ex had no patience to listen to me. When I could not finish a thought in one sentence, he interrupted me, he claimed, that he already knew, what I were going to say, but in reality he did not, and he then started to monologue about something else.
With only ADD, he would interrupt people, but he would be aware, that he was depriving himself of valuable information, and he would know, that interrupting is doing himself no good, and he could at least show respect and appreciation by attempts and motivation to listen, as much as he could manage. Even admitting that people deserve to be listened to is showing appreciation.
With only NPD, he would have interrupted me as a part of using power over me, of showing his depreciation, because he did not gain narcissistic supply from listening to me. Whenever he would have known that by listening to others he would gain information to be used to get more narcissistic supply later, he would have listened. But he interrupted and monologued with everybody, even when this was detrimental for him.
But assuming the comorbidity of ADD and Narcissism, I could interprete this as him feeling narcissistically entitled to be superior to everybody even by acting out driven by ADD-impulsiveness. Narcissism justified his interrupting me, from whom he anyhow did not expect any valuable thoughts. Interrupting others, whom he would have better not interrupted, was his bad luck, where his ADD impulsiveness limitted his performance as a narcissist. Therefore he was by far not as successfull as a narcissist, as he felt entitlted to be. I assume, that this was the reason, while he put so much pressure on making me a submissive, docile source of narcissistic supply against my dire resistence. He just had not so many other sources available. He tried to get it all out of me.
This means, that had I considered having him back, I would have to cope with the double and the combined problem of ADD and of Narcissism.
Has anybody experienced similar dynamics?
Dilemma
Submitted by at_the_crossroa... on
My getting exhausted with him was enhanced by my own being torn apart in doubt, how to behave. From very early on, I was aware, that he had problems with ADD and Asperger tendencies, and I was fully aware, that by becoming his partner, I had to be supportive and understanding. Supporting someone, who appreciates support, might be difficult, but it just needs loving care.
But as a narcissist, he denied to have any problems, he did not want my support, but my agreement with his denial, that nothing was wrong with him, but that I was flawed in resisting his dominance. That caused me feel outrage, and since after he left, I learned, that it is narcissism. Until he left, I felt being treated by a jerk, but did not really allow myself to call him a jerk. With his ADD, he needed support and understanding, even though he was in denial.
Therefore there was no way to behave appropriate to his ADD and his narcissism at the same time. Supporting him as having trouble with ADD by being lenient would have been perceived as my implicit submission to be inferior, and it would have reinforced his narcissism. Struggling against his inacceptable behavior and protesting outright against him behaving like a jerk was contra-supportive to his ADD.
The combination of ADD and comorbid Narcissism made me helpless. Has anybody experienced a similar dilemma?
Narcissism and ADHD
Submitted by gp on
My experience with my ADHD partner has definitely led me to conclude a tie betwee his ADHD and narcissism. I've been an observer on these posts for a long time, but yours is the first to elicit a response because my experience mirrors yours.
Yes, you definitely can have both! It does seem contradictory at first glance, but narcissists can have low self esteem, in spite of their grandiose delusions and exaggerations. I initially wondered how the two disorders could coexist, but over time, strongly believe they can.
You sound in need of affirmation, so that's what I'll say for now. I have every intention of explaining my experience further in the next day or two when I can put some thoughts together on the issue.
ADD, Narcissism, Relationship Paradigm
Submitted by at_the_crossroa... on
gp, it is more than just the need of affirmation, that made me restart posting. It is the irriation of being torn apart between the outrage over my hurt pride and dignity due to jerkish treatment, and the knowledge, that the jerk at the same time also is a person with some serious personality trouble in need of my support, even though he did not ask for it but reject even the need.
How justified am I to feel outrage and to hold him responsible for the pain, that he caused me? How much do I have to accept, that I am responsible myself, because I exposed myselt to someone, who is determined by his brain and not capable to do any better?
As long as I can define someone without doubt as a malignant narcissist, who enjoys hurting or enjoys the power to be able to hurt, then those questions have the simple answer, that from the moment of feeling outrage on, if I continue to be with him, it is my doing to expose myself.
But if narcissism is a reaction, a method of coping with ADD or Asperger's traits, that gives him relief from his own pain by burdening pain upon others, then my irritation starts about whom to hold responsible.
I would like to hear, how others are coping with such a conflict.
When my Ex left, at first I felt relief from the daily hurting, and I expected to heal, as soon as I would find someone else's appreciation. But all my efforts to find someone else until now were in vain. When he recontacted me, I had started to feel very lonely, and the fact, that the only difference between heaven and hell was something like one fundemental switch in his brain, started to cause me a lot of emotional turmoil.
That switch in his brain is his perception of himself in relation with me or more precisely with any woman. To me commitment means to feel as a part of a unit, sharing decisions, acting upon consent, solving problems by rational communication until reaching agreement and being bound by mutual obligations.
But he was in a relationship with me as a mentally single man, he would have married me and still continued to experience himself as being single. I was a utility, I was a kind of a pet, I was a friend with benefits, but I just was not a partner. He decided alone, what he wanted for himself, and after that, what by projection would be good for his pet. I was to be available for him, when he wanted me, but had to allow him to be kept in storage, when he did not. He expected me to be happy, compliant and submissive to and with his decisions, and if I resisted, he forced his decisions upon me, fully convinced to be justified.
Those two concepts are incompatible. I could never be a pet-utility-with-benefits without suffering excruciating emotional pain. When he started therapy, I was wondering, if it could make him to become a partner, and how long it would take to turn that switch.
Before we met, by email, he had theoretically agreed on the concept of sharing, consent, equality. From the day of meeting on, all of a sudden I became that pet-utility-with-benefits.
From a malignant narcissist, I would have no doubt, that his theoretical agreement with my concept of commitment were a lie to manipulate me to accept him. But his ADD-impulsitivity impedes him of consistently lieing, he omitted telling me things, but nearly never told me outright lies.
So theoretically he knows, what kind of commitment I had expected him to enter, but in real life he made me his pet-utility-with-benefits instead, and by entitlement and grandiosity delusion, he perceives himself as justified.
So I am puzzled, if therapy could make him accpet himself as having some ADD and Asperger's traits, and still have enough self-esteem and trust, to give up the obsolete coping methods of having an entitlement and grandiosity delusion and learn to be able to become a sharing partner, or if those delusions are so deeply rooted in his brain, that he can never become a partner.
Has anybody any experience, if and how a single man allowing someone into his life only as a pet-utility-with-benefits could change his relationship paradigm drastically and become a committed partner?
My hubby's bio-father is a
Submitted by Miss Behaven on
My hubby's bio-father is a narcissist as far as we can tell. When hubby's sister was diagnosed with it everyone went Oooooo that explains him too!
Hubby's father is no longer part of our lives, he is a classic bad for you narcissist who uses and abuses everyone around him, often without you relaising it. Gaslighting is a special talent of his.
Hubby's sister has been getting help for NPD over the last three years, ever since her marriage broke up. She has improved a fair bit. She is less controlling and manipulative, she tells less lies and admits it when she is caught. She still struggles with it a lot as well, especialy not seeing everyone as a relfection on herself. We did not get along for many years because my showing up in a wrinkled blouse made her look bad! *rolll eyes* We are still in contact with her, but somewhat distant. I do not allow her around the children unless I have to, only for important family functions when there is no choice in the matter. It hard on hubby being around her as she reminds him of the father who abused him so badly.
Hubby was the big dissapointment aand his sister was the idealized child. Both were terribly traumatized for it, hubby developing OCD in an attempt to deal with his ADD and his sister getting NPD. Hubby's mother suffered a great deal at the hands of her husband and still struggles with depression and anger from the marriage and guilt over how her children were raised.
If your hubby is truly a narcissist I suggest the best thing you can do for yourself is to stay well away from him. *hug*
Narcissism Realtiontionships
Submitted by clacius on
no therapy does not help and they usually they lie and fool a counselor or a visit a psychiatrist . They will do something one minute and tell you what you want to hear and do what they want . They lie and the further you pull away the more they try to control you . then go to other family members and Friends to get to you . They can be dangerous if you don't have support to help you get out of that Pit !
I have experienced People like this in my life . also friends . If anyone has questions please write back .
Therapy does not help )
Submitted by katetd on
Clacius I concur 100% ..it's been my exact same experience over 15 years... And yes I've been in recovery almost 2 years in closed online support group & with support of specialist psychiatrist & psychologist/psychotherapist team in Sydney. My 13 year old daughter was traumatised by it all too & seeing a therapist herself. The relationship drove me to alarming levels of depression, anxiety & suicidality (to point of starting to make plans!!) - all EXTREMELY UNLIKE ME!!! I had no real idea what was wrong with me.... Years of trying therapy including couple therapy.... These relationships are extremely toxic and ultimately lethal in one way or the other. It is very hard to diagnose such personality disorders (cluster B in DSM) for so many reasons...and even the most experienced professional can have the wool pulled over their eyes. Even those who may not fully fit the DSM criteria (which are a pretty limited and not comprehensive enough anyway) can still be far enough up the spectrum (or continuum) to be extremely destructive to be in relationship with (whether personally, through work or otherwise). The jury is out on the actual causes but there is certainly evidence to suggest various mixtures of nature and nurture for Narcissists sliding up the scale to full Sociopaths (or Psychopaths - but this term is not in DSM) as being pretty much just made that way from the start and running in families. It is suggested we are all on the continuum of narcissism starting with a healthy dose of it (that can fluctuate under stress - which can trigger us into baby brain functioning) to full blown big N Narcissism which really is very similar to Sociopathy and shares many of the same characteristics. borderline Personality disorder is about the only one in this category that I think sometimes has some capacity for change because some of these people do have some level of insight and capacity for genuine empathy. As far as I'm concerned Life is too short to even bother trying to maintain an intimate relationship with these people just for my own survival.
Whole Heartedly Concur
Submitted by kellyj on
"It is very hard to diagnose such personality disorders (cluster B in DSM) for so many reasons...and even the most experienced professional can have the wool pulled over their eyes. "
This was my exact expereince.....the woman in my story talked her way into therapy with me (my current therapist of almost 15 years) saying she thought it would be good for our relationship. After the fact.....and after her wanting to go see him for her own reasons alone for only a few sessions....my therapist under the guidelines of confidentiality in a private session told me only what he could but saying :" my focus and study during my doctoral program was in (character/personality) disorders and worked with this group prior to going into couples therapy. I've even had colleagues of mine at times consult with me on a particular diagnosis from time to time and lead a study group in this area." Telling me "that you shouldn't be so hard on yourself for not understanding what was happening with you as she was very convincing to the point that it took me some time to narrow down myself and this is what I do for a living. A good smart one can fool even the best psychologist for a while at least...."
He could not tell me exactly why she went to him alone.....but said only "it wasn't for therapy" I gathered in was in search of information instead in context to this comment.
Yep...true on all accounts
Four years old
Submitted by Standing on
I am so grateful that this thread is still here. Many thanks to all who contributed!
I followed the link to material by Melanie Tonia Evans about recovery from narcissistic abuse.
Very hopeful stuff!
Good For You Standing!
Submitted by harmony on
I'm glad that you posted! I can't believe I posted here over a year ago. It was a month before I decided to flee the state. Boom! Outta there! I had to take a break from Melanie for about four months but I'm back into it as I managed to attract another N/P. Needless to say I recognized the signs but it still took 8 months for the NPD to really start showing. My soul has really been on me lately to heal some deep inner wounds! Daunting. As many woman have I've suffered the devastating effects of one long-term Narc of 27 years and the flash in the pan 8 month ditty. My health suffered greatly and I don't know how long or if I can even fully recover. I'm hopeful. Along with Melanie, I also use psychopathfree.com. Great information there to really get an understanding of the disordered men and the behavior. Between the two I find balance.
Quite frankly as I read over the responses over the year or so with my new EDUCATION in N's and P's there definitely are humans who are pretending to be human. The epitome of evil and just down right creepy! I hope others have found the support they need and they are healing as well. Labeling the disordered men/women in the world is not important to me anymore, there is a spectrum as far as I can see and it's damaging. They really are alike and it becomes a waste of energy after a while to put focus on them. THEY need to step it up and THEY alone, we can't help them. We can only look after ourselves and God knows we have to because a lot of us that were subjected to theses types of relationships have to start from the brink of death point. So sad, but it's truth and a reality.
I absolutely believe that my ex husband was misdiagnosed with ADHD. ADHD seems to be the scapegoat disorder for so many 'issues', including children. What I've learned is that trauma (from abuse or otherwise) can look like ADHD in the spouse of the disordered individual. This also includes children. The disordered people really do create chaos and damage to the family dynamic and what's worse is that if it's missed families can go years if not decades living with abuse.
I wish you well!
Harmony
Harmony! I am so glad that you broke free!
Submitted by Standing on
Thank you Standing. I HAD to
Submitted by harmony on
Thank you Standing. I HAD to flee. It truly was a do or die situation. I was physically drained of all of my Life Force energy to the point of illness. I manifested an ovarian tumor which ended up being benign but still had to follow through 'just in case' it could 'turn' into cancer. Medical establishment is narcissistic as well :). It was very clear after my surgery and my ex ignoring me and not supporting me with the basics after surgery such as FOOD that I had some relationship issues to deal with. That was the start of what I call the BIG BANG. Of course through time, my energy was draining away, like termites invaded my system. Bit by bit. I had to save myself and my daughter and I fled. I've had to heal every arena of Life mental, emotional, spiritual, physical, sexual, ALL OF IT. Still processing and healing and probably will be for a while. Thank God for Melanie Tonia Evans and Psychopathfree.com.
I acknowledge your decision to do what works for you and your vigilance to heal. Yes, in order not to become enmeshed with these creatures again an understanding of the dynamic of the N/P dance is necessary. I've actually come to a place where I'm kinda (only kinda) glad for my experience as I've learned a LOT about who I was, am and can be as well as understand the psychopathy that invades our world so I can bring awareness to my Life and make better and Higher choices for myself. I wish the same for you as well. It's not an easy road but is reflective of a very strong and capable soul--remember that.
Blessings now and into the future :)
Hi there
Submitted by sara dunne on
Hi there
yup going through exactly the same problem!
xxx
I think that it's dangerous
Submitted by Manda1516 on
I think that it's dangerous and uneducated for you to be saying that children with ADHD are never treated a certain way when there's no possible way you can say that. Maybe the norm is not that but I know for a fact from the situation that I was just in and research, that a lot of parents overindulge and feel guilty over their child not fitting in that they do tend to act exactly as you're saying that never happens. And it does in fact cause nurses has them and other psychotic behaviors as well as entitlement and other serious issues. I think making General statements about All or Nothing is the big problem with a lot of these issues and it keeps people in situations without knowing all of the information and with therapist and other people not looking into it enough
my experience w/ ADD individual diagnosed with Narcissism
Submitted by moominmama on
My adult son was diagnosed with and was medicated for ADD when he was 16. But because his condition did not receive correct recognition and treatment when we first became aware of it (when he was 12 -- we lived in a backwater with insufficient professional personnel), he was often punished and teased for his inabilities over the intervening years, both in school and at home. I believe he constructed a protective fantasy version of his world in which other people's rules did not apply to him. Lying became habitual to hide his shame over losing things, missing deadlines, scrambling instructions, forgetfulness.
With medication he found a focus which permitted a fairly high level of academic success, however he still was humiliated by his failures to succeed in areas of practical living. Today he is stalled in pursuit of a grad degree, hobbled by the failure of another romantic relationship, and has been diagnosed with Narcissistic personality traits. A delusion that he can somehow command the life of his ex has resulted in a terrible period (a year and a half) of hell for him and us, his parents.
That someone with a history of ADD-inspired failures can develop such a disorder as a defensive mechanism makes sense to me.
narcissism runs in Family's
Submitted by clacius on
Narcissism runs in family !
I absolutely believe that
Submitted by harmony on
I absolutely believe that narcissism is co-morbid with ADHD. I've discovered that my husband 'compensates' the ADHD with narcissistic traits. I want to reiterate: I PAINFULLY discovered this relationship killing combo. I've known my husband for 27 years and my codependent personality was a perfect puzzle piece to his insecurities. He was officially diagnosed with ADHD 3 years ago and that's when my eyes started to open and when the shit started to hit the fan. I'm not going into the painful details but suffice it to say there are levels to narcissisim that anyone can display usually because they are feeling insecure and the codependent personality type is the perfect 'target' for an ADHD individual, the narcissist or a combo. I realized that I had to start taking care of myself and put the focus on me as I was burning out from his lack of attentiveness (to everything) and my daughter was also a victim. It's sad but true but whatever label you want to put on it doesn't matter. What matters is being in a healthy relationship and realize you can only do do much before the imbalance creates a make or break situation with your sanity. My best resource that I used to help me to understand narcissism above and beyond the psychiatrists viewpoint is: melanietoniaevans.com. Since I knew my husband had ADHD I researched the issue and he fit into a lot of 'symptoms' but there was something missing and I found the missing piece through reading Melanie's work on narcissism. This is how I came to my own discovery that narcissistic traits can be a supportive tool that an ADHD person could use to survive and manage the ADHD symptoms. It's a volatile mix.
sorry for the confusion, I
Submitted by fempartner on
sorry for the confusion, I misplaced the answer.. :) The reply underneath was a reply to crossroads
I just got out of an abusive
Submitted by Manda1516 on
I just got out of an abusive relationship with that deadly combination to achieve what you explained. If you ever want to talk please reach out to me and we can be support for one another. Best of luck to you and I really hope that more people can continue to spread the word about how serious and accurate these disorders together is and how life-altering and destroying they can be
adhd and narcissism
Submitted by fempartner on
I think you are absolutely right. I have had the same thoughts about my ex. with untreated adhd.
I think it is possible that many people with untreated adhdh suffer with childhood trauma which can cause narcissism (for instance due to lack of attention from mother with untreated adhd).
agree
Submitted by lynninny on
I agree. I think many with untreated ADHD (my STBX included) suffered tons of negative reinforcement and abandonment as a child (mostly from his parents, who did not support or understand him, were hyper-critical, and also left him alone to fend for himself). He grew up compensating by being defensive, in denial, and he can be of the most narcissistic people in the world. It manifests itself a lot in his health issues and how he is feeling and the way that he expresses it--like there is something clinically just wrong there. And you could not talk to him about it. Ever. Even in the nicest way. I tried. For years. The defensiveness was unreal, no matter how I approached things.
I remember when it finally clicked for me--after years of being devastated that not only did he not seem to care how I felt, he actually suggested that there was something wrong with me because I felt that way. That it was all my fault. That he was wonderful and I was crazy. He was a master manipulator--could twist anything around to make it something else to avoid being "blamed" or told he was wrong. Pretty sad, really. It saved my life to realize one day that his perspective was way, way off and that I didn't think he was right, and that I may never be able to get him to "see." Therapy for myself helped a lot. Moved on and now I feel like I was in another world there -- fortunately I am in the real one again:-)
My best to you.
ADHD/narcissism
Submitted by akarl on
All I can say is Wow - I finally found a place where others are trying to solve the same puzzle. It helps me know I'm not crazy and I've truly wondered if I was the one that just didn't get it. Because I have a daughter and two grandchildren that have been diagnosed as ADHD I've spent uncountable hours in the last 5 years learning about ADHD and have come to know that I have literally been around people with ADHD all my life and frankly felt odd because I needed to have some order and thoughtful action in my life. The confusion and drama that accompanies daily life with ADHD parents, siblings and children has caused me to be an unusually separate person. I was only able to rely on myself. BUT I seem to attract them like a magnet. I have been described as kind and I believe I am. I am also a hyper capable and hyper responsible individual - sometimes to my detriment. I am also exhausted in every way. I have just completed a divorce from my husband of almost 37 years. I firmly believe he is undiagnosed ADHD - which he has refused repeatedly to look into - says there's no reason to because at 69 he is too old to change. However, he has changed a lot especially in the last 3 years. His involvement with online porn has made great inroads into his game playing time. Before the internet his TV time made him largely unavailable to 'us', to his children which I basically raised alone along with mine. He and I worked together for many years and were quite successful there - He was the big picture person and I took care of the details. We worked hard and put away a substantial retirement. His being the boss there was ok and we did that well. But he could never find time to do anything except what he wanted to do. His career offered many travel opportunities. I often went along because he certainly didn't want to travel alone since a change in his schedule was so disturbing. He seemed to recognize my input only when it was pointed out by colleagues. At home he was negative in any comment about other people, our children and life in general. He wanted to be admired by colleagues - and he was - but he certainly wasn't admiring of them. He always, and I use that word thoughtfully, already knew anything I tried to tell him about so he cut me off mid-sentence and he frequently 'read my mind' and knew what I was going to say before I finished. He interrupted. He had a combative conversation style when he conversed - insisted he was just being a 'devil's advocate'. When we married I thought he was smart and that was the attraction. I had a GED and he had a Phd. I came to know that he needed to be the smart one. I worked hard and got an education during the years, while working full time and raising 3 girls. Funny thing was that the more I left the uneducated me behind the more he struggled to be in charge of me, and the unhappier our interactions became. He has now taken up with an uneducated troubled young woman with a 2 year old. She is younger than our children by a decade. Says he's saving the little boy from a life of poverty. I am moving into what I hope is reasonably peaceful 'last part of my life'. It is a lot different to be single and rearranging myself at 71, but I guess there's no time like the present. The old 'first day of the rest of my life' you know. I am so fortunate to be financially secure. While I worked for it I do know that many women work just as hard and don't wind up as well. I get angry at myself for the lingering feelings that I should try to protect him from his choices. It's habit after all this time and of course there is sadness that it has finished this way. I have been struggling to sort out the narcissistic behavior - which I've only sketched here - and the ADHD. I wish you all well and the only I advice I have is 'get out sooner' or this will be your life. There is no fixing it - Love doesn't win every struggle.
dues
Submitted by carathrace on
You have certainly paid your dues, akarl. It takes a lot of courage to start over at 71, and I am heartily applauding you. May your new life be peaceful and free, and actually quite heavenly. You have already had the hell.
My husband has ADD and narcissistic (+4 on Rosenberg's scale)
Submitted by summerrhiannon on
Im the one with ADHD and he's the one with NPD
Submitted by katetd on
Hello, This is a very interesting conversation! I dont know the answer to whether ADHD can trigger or cause comorbid NPD.....my understanding is that full NPD is an enduring way of operating from a young age so Im not sure it can be brought on later in life by other conditions or circumstances. I have read however that perhaps any of us under certain stressful circumstances (eg marriage breakdown or breakup) can be prone to behaving in what appears to be Narcissistically Disordered ways but that this settles down after the crisis or stress has passed. ive also read that sometimes The manic phase of bipolar can be mistaken for NPD but if it is a true manic phase of course it will pass (therefore it is not NPD). Ive also read that Narcissism can be understood as on a continuum (like most things) and that we all have aspects of it in us. The continuum is from healthy narcissism (which we all need) to full blown pathological Narcissistic Personality Disorder. This can only be given an official diagnoses if checks off with at least 5 of the characteristics in the DSM4 (its now under Anti Social Personality Disorder in DSM5). However it is apparently well understood that someone doesn't have to be a full blown NPD to nevertheless be at least very psychologically damaging to be in relationship with. There are more Covert forms of NPD (wolf in sheeps clothing types) that don't really get well identified in the DSM.
Ive learnt all this and a whole lot more, not just from research but very personally because I have learnt the hard way that I have been in a relationship for 15 years with a covert/stealth Narcissist. He was just about the death of me and I didnt even know what was really going on & the impact he was having on me until towards the end. We have fortunately been separated almost 6 months now and although Im doing much much better than I have been for years (on every level, including managing my own ADHD!!), I have needed (& continue to need) an awful lot of specialised support to come to terms with the reality of the relationship and to undo all the psychological & emotional damage done to me.
Just before we separated, I joined this forum and by then I knew there was some level of emotional and mental abuse going on (& that it had been consistently going on for too long). I came to the forum with some understanding of the destructive dynamics that can develop in the ADHD relationship and at that point I was looking at & trying to do something about the situation from that perspective to no avail. Over time I started discussing things further and getting reality checks form some people on this forum about his behaviour being unacceptable. I then found out a whole lot of things about him that I had no idea about that had been going on for years that were extremely shocking, devastating and traumatic to discover (basically that he had been lying, cheating, backstabbing and undermining me for years behind my back in incredibly 2 faced bizarre ways!). And when I confronted him about it all his response was absolutely beyond all comprehension and completely out of my sphere of experience! It was as if Id been living with a Pod person out of Invasion of the Body Snatchers and I felt psychologically, emotionally, spiritually disemboweled and unzipped in one fell swoop - I cannot begin to describe beyond this what it was like - I could not leave the house for 3 days, I didnt know who, how, where, what I was or was supposed to be doing!). This was when I knew without any shadow of a doubt that I wasn't dealing with a normal human being but had been living with someone all these years that had done the most stunningly convincing job of pretending to be a normal human being to my face whilst living a completely other life behind my back! In absolute disorientation & confusion I started madly researching and kept being pointed in direction of NPD over and over again. If you are interested to read my story (it may be helpful to understanding how a true (covert) NPD operates. Covert NPDs are very subtle and in fact can be far more destructive than the more overt types because, as I found out the hard way, you can go years, even decades before you realize what is going on!
Here is the link to my story from another section of the forum:
http://www.adhdmarriage.com/content/adhd-wife-and-possible-probable-narc...
I hope it helps. I would not wish this experience on a dead dog so please if anybody has any suspicions this might be something going on in their own life, go investigate ASAP!!! xxx
adhd and narcissistic tendancies HELP
Submitted by squirrel on
It is astonishing, that this
Submitted by at_the_crossroa... on
It is astonishing, that this thread still gets comments once in a while. So this is a final update.
He wanted me back, and the futile correspondence dragged on into 2011, until I finally had enough. I blocked all emails from him and there is no more contact now.
When I started this thread, I would have been very much motivated to do anything to make the relationship work, had it not been him, who dumped me. Because at the age of 65 it is very difficult to find another partner. Unfortunately I am still alone. But there is a limit. When someone not only beliefs that what he does is right, but when he therefore also refuses to change any of his behavior for the purpose to spare me pain, then in the end it was the unavoidable good riddance.
I wish luck, relief and improvement to all of you, who are still struggling in a painful relationship. Having left all of this behind, there is nothing new, which I could contribute.
Thank you
Submitted by Standing on
I wish you and the others here who have suffered - joy and peace and contentment.
atthecrossroads I just want
Submitted by harmony on
atthecrossroads I just want to point out that you did contribute, you started the post and it created a ripple effect for other women to be able to access information for their situation which as you know was most likely a devastatingly painful relationship. These types of relationships with disordered individuals has the effect to disorder the spouse and can leave one feeling like they just fell down the rabbit hole with no way out!
I've read a TON of stories from many different age women and a women in her 60's unfortunately is not uncommon. I just was talking with a 71 year old woman who'd had enough and divorced her disordered husband and couldn't be happier for it. She says the same thing about the challenge of leaving a long term marriage and her age but she also stated that she'd rather live in a cardboard box than be with 'that asshole'--lol!
I too feel lonely and mistrust most everyone and I'm working on getting that back but in the meantime it's all about me (and my daughter) and I feel freedom more deeply one day at a time. I'm starting over at 50 and was married for 24 years and was a stay at home mom for 16 of those. My daughter has suffered greatly so we travel together on this healing journey.
May you find yourself filled with happiness, peace and joy! I send you blessings now and into the future. Keep on keeping on, you are a BRAVE, dynamic woman and I'm inspired by what you did. Thanks again for writing the original post :)
Crossroads, I agree completely with Harmony,
Submitted by Standing on
and I am 54, in many ways feeling stunted and crippled by emotional neglect and abuse. My counselor keeps telling me that I am not damaged goods, but sure feels that way, often times. People like you and Harmony fuel my hope to grow beyond this stage, to release the old, dead ties and to go on in greater health.
I needed to find this thread you initiated years ago, at just this time, in order to remain steadfast to what I know is the truth. I still have so much weakness within, when it comes to resisting the compulsion to swoop in and rescue my poor, lost husband. He has so many faces, and beneath all of those, so much emptiness That I Cannot Fill ! The writings on this thread, especially your determined questions and observations, help to keep me grounded in reality. My prayer for you and for all of us is that our loneliness will be eased in only the very best, most healthy ways, from this day forward. Thank you so much!
The Relationship Post Mortem
Submitted by at_the_crossroa... on
I just read the postings of 2013 and later. Some of you have suffered much longer than I did. My best wishes for your own healing process.
From our first emails over an international matchmaking site until his final leaving, it only lasted 2.5 years. It was intense and extreme, but my feeling of self-worth and self-confidence and my resisting and criticizing his behaviors drove him speedily off. I am easily made to suffer but I am not suitable as a compliant victim. With leniency and more female submissiveness, it would have lasted longer.
I am a bit surprised by the appreciation of my contribution as helpful. This makes me wonder, if anybody would be interested in the entire story. As a part of my attempts to gain better insight, I wrote a 'relationship post mortem', which printed would be more then 250 pages. It is a mixture of narrating instances of his behaviors and of our conflicts, interpreting the mutual attraction, attempting to attribute the failure to causes in him, in my own needs, in my reactions, in misunderstandings and in cultural differences. While he wanted me back and before my final giving up, I had sent this text to a few people like his cousins, because I had the futile hope that anybody could influence him.
Now I am wondering it I should anonymize my text and make it available as a pdf file. But I am not sure, if anybody would really be interested and also not, where. Any suggestions?
Hek ya!!!
Submitted by harmony on
Yes, Yes and Yes again!!! My opinion is that your 'post mortem' relationship story would be very helpful. There are many, many, many relationships such as ours that (as we all know) can be very hard to grasp an understanding of and to hear personal stories makes it real, brings context to the situation. What I know is that these relationships can be at various levels in the healing process and the information from your experience could actually help someone get out of a rut through to understanding. It brings with it a sense of 'I'm not alone' which then brings the clarity and fortitude to heal. Just as you noticed that your simple post had a wondrous effect on others so can your book.
You just don't know how far your good will go! It truly is the ripple in the pond effect that is happening here and I encourage you to shine! Shine your light (your book) on the darkness of disordered relationships so that others can have the opportunity to shine as well. Make some luscious lemonade out of the lemons!!!!
If it were my book I would look to psychopathfree.com. When you become a member, you'll notice there is a place that you can post articles and such. The men and women there have ALL experienced disordered relationships sometimes more than one. The disordered relationship is NOT normal and as we heal we have to think out of the box to find the right resources to get ourselves back on track and again, the personal stories are vital because of the unique-ness of the relationship.
Kindle: My friend posted short stories to Amazon.com's website in Kindle.
Create your own blog: I know that goes above and beyond just putting your story out there but, you may have curious readers who want to ask you questions. :)
Other short story publication sites: There are more sites than just Kindle that you can publish on.
These were just a few things I thought of off the top. The facts are you have experience and you can turn that into wisdom by 'putting yourself out there' and help others if that's what you want to do. It's your truth and the truth can not only set you free, it can set others free too!
May you open big and wide and step forth in wisdom and confidence as a true Grandmother :). The world NEEDS you!
making the relationship post mortem available
Submitted by at_the_crossroa... on
ok, Harmony, I appreciate your encouragement and I will put the text to the psychopathfree site. It will take a while to remove all too specific personal information.
I am already blogging, but for the purpose to find a new partner, so it is more about what kind of a relationship I am looking for and what kind of a person I am.
As I thought it wise not to search a partner as a deeply hurt person licking my wounds, calling myself here crossroads is a different name from the one I am blogging under.
I'm on PF.com a lot and I can
Submitted by harmony on
I'm on PF.com a lot and I can't wait to see you post there. My name there is sob. Look me up! I love your blog idea about using it to attract a partner. Wow! what a great idea, that HAS to beat the dating sites. I've never visited a dating site but I always hear about how awful they can be. The blog is a great way to truly show who you are. I might try that one day but for now I'm to paranoid that I would hook up with yet another narcopath. I have a ways to go :)
See ya!
I signed in to Psychopath
Submitted by at_the_crossroa... on
I signed in to Psychopath Free, called myself 'forwardbound', thought to just send you a private message but did not find any way to do it. Should you write to me, I will reply.
Editing my text may take a while. Once it is done, I will tell here too how to find it.
Courage to all.
Attachment disorder
Submitted by fempartner on
I think that it is possible, that many people with ADD/ADHD who have these narcissistic issues, do not suffer from ADD (or at least it's a minor issue), but suffer from an attachment disorder.
Even the experts get it wrong. Neglect, abuse and lack of a safe, predictable, attuned environment in childhood,can cause a severe attachment disorder and the brain to not develop in a proper way (se Helpguide for instance). (reactive or milder) Attachment disorder gives many of the same symptoms as many people with ADD: lack of concentration, lack of empathy/understanding ones own and others feelings, lack of goal/commitment, impulsiveness, pathological lying, selfcenteredness, lack of trust in others etc. Attachment disorder in childhood, when untreated, can lead to ADD-like behaviour, narcissistic or borderline traits as adult.
The personality is fragmented/unintegrated (disorganized attachment). And it can look a lot like ADD.
Best to all :)
Unintegrated personality = Lack of Integrity
Submitted by Standing on
Makes sense, Toss in plenty of obsessions and compulsions, a hefty dose of oppositional defiance, and a measure of power, success, and money
and you've got - my husband, 2014 edition. Miserable.
Be well!
Yes, I Agree fempartner
Submitted by kellyj on
I think many of the issues I've been reading here in this forum are not ADHD related or at least not the primary source of the behavior patterns. I think when it starts getting down to figuring out exactly what causes what and diagnosing someone who may have multiple issues including ADD/ADHD....it gets really dangerous to start playing arm chair psychoanalyst.
I'm not inferring or being contrary to what you just said in the least and whole heartedly concur.
I know because I've been doing this for myself for years and have watched myself playing conspiracy theorist and being only partially right in a sense ....being partially right and discovering just how wrong I was at the same time.
Like reading the Horoscope page and believing them since they stay just this side of committing to anything specific....but enough to make you believe they might be correct ( not saying there's anything wrong with Astrology if you believe in it....I just don't put a lot of weight there personally).
I can say this because I have been confirmed with ADHD and a hint or even more than a hint ( at different stages of my life) going back to childhood including Narcissistic,Borderline Antisocial,Co-dependent, Oppositional/Defiant Avoidant, components without having any of these stand out to the forefront of my behavior enough or developed any consistent problem pattern issues that confront me which comes full circle back to ADHD.
That's quite an impressive list? You'd think I should either be committed, in Prison...or both! ha ha
Yet...this is not the case and to the point......my list stems from the culmination of most of my generational family members going back a couple generations and further.....non of them I would call certifiable...including me! lol
It does suggest that these things do show up as remnants to some past source and in relationship to ADD/ADHD specifically.
Truth be told...my therapist avoids diagnosing people like the plague and it was only because I was doing what I'm saying on my own since I'm insatiable about learning and a royal pain in the ass as a client sometimes in being tenacious and stubborn despite his attempts to steer me away from doing this......him having to dissuade me most of the time, but to admit that there was a "hint" or "flavor" of these things in there somewhere to get me off his back when I would bring this stuff to him with "my personal conspiracy theory." lol
So that's why I can agree that I see the potential for what you are saying a midsts a multitude of overlapping comorbid symptoms.
Simply put......I wouldn't touch trying to narrow down a person who appears with a few symptoms that start fitting one diagnosis being one thing or the other with a ten foot pole......... unless you're a trained and experienced expert..... at a doctoral level even better if your trying to spit this kind of thing up to that degree.
And for the record....I've never been in prison ( ha ha) ....and my main issues that have been problematic in my relationships ( intimate ones ) stem from being more than a little messy, being excessively active and busy, time management, and having a smart mouth in certain circumstances when not appropriate.....not blurting out, being boorish or publicly embarassing......more targeted and judicial applied to certain specific individuals ( without physical violence of fighting ) if you can picture that. lol
Definitely a touch of the defiant/oppositional in there without getting too crazy. Outside of that...I think I'm a pretty OK guy.
So trying hard not to be redundant....I think everyone is a mix of things on the continuum but I think ADHD will bring these out more in someone by itself which is a slight variant to what you said but I think you are right on in the big picture.
J
When being subjectively and
Submitted by at_the_crossroa... on
When being subjectively and painfully involved, then using a label like ADD or Narcissism is not an attempt to put a diagnosis upon someone. It is only a way to communicate and to share an experienced problem. When one suffers under a SO's behaviors, which coincide with the core symptoms of a published clinical description, then using a word like ADD labels observed behaviors, not the person behaving.
No Offense Taken
Submitted by kellyj on
I completely understand in every respect and to the point that I was offering....it's not the label that I was talking about but more who determines it? Identifying core symptoms from published clinical descriptions is exactly what I was doing and exactly why I said what I said. Way too complex and interwoven issues to cherry pick and try and narrow down that way. Your chances of being wrong or even close to being accurate are astronomical.
If your talking about someone who is already diagnosed by a competent professional and sharing support and information as you said....then you have my greatest sympathy.
Bottom line...get the help you need from and expert.
J
Hi again
Submitted by fempartner on
Hi everyone, and thanks for reply.
English is my second language, so therefore please forgive if it is a little simple.
I just want to say, that I am not an expert or anything, I am just talking from my own experience, and what I have read. Your are right; we are all different, and one should not try to diagnose anyone unless you are an expert/trained in these things. But I just want to share my thought, since sharing information and discussing different angles can make us wiser on the subject. And I think we who have lived in a relationship with a person with a personality disorder or ADD have some special insight that can be usefull.
So.. :) Please feel free to have your own best opinion :)
I think it is possible, based on what I have read of research papers also, that many of these disorders such as npd, bpd, add, ocd and so on, is actually a way to try to describe a behaviour, and that many of these traits overlap. That includes hyperactivity, lack of concentration, impulsiveness, dissociation/numbness, narc./ selfcenteredness, low self esteem, lack of trust, conscience, stress and so on. And following the latest brain research many of these symptoms are a dysregulation in the brain/body caused by lack of proper care/safe attuned attachment proces especially during the first 2-3 years in an infant. So if a child is neglected or not given enough attuned attention, care, eye /body contact etc., or is frightened because of unpredictable behaviour from the mother or abuse etc., the brain can be damaged in certain ways, which can lead to emotional, attentional and learning problems or special coping mechanisms to survive (like you see in adhd, npd, bpd etc.). I am not saying that all is due to lack of safe attachment proces, but maybe many instances of these disorders are. And depending on which specific environment you grew up in, you could have specific traits, such as more or less npd etc.
So personality disorder or 'attention deficit' in this way, can best be understood as a normal reaction to something they grew up with/an attachment disorder. For instance not enough stimulation/psysical touch during the first months in a childs life, can, as far as I have read, lead to attentional problems and hyperactivity (in order to wake up the brain) later on. Or being abandoned/left alone for too long and not having your need me as a baby, can lead to fear of becoming attached to someone and vulnerable; a very common trait in an attachment disorder.
The good news is, that people with these difficulties can learn and heal from these things too, and from the trauma they have suffered in childhood, and learn to develop a more true and whole self. But only if they want of course. And that is very difficult. Also because we miss some good information on the subject. But my impression is that it is getting better and better with more information out there.
Best to you all. and again, I'm not an expert ;) I just try to figure it out for myself and maybe someone can use it.
an intact family
Submitted by at_the_crossroa... on
English is also not my native language.
Of course, early attachment problems can have devastating consequences. But I doubt that this would explain my ex's troubles. He grew up with both of his parents in a seemingly average middle class family. His parents still seemed to be a happy or at least content couple, when I met them a few times at their age of about 85. Also his sister lives a life with none of his troubles if she has any at all.
Hi
Submitted by fempartner on
Hi
Ok, I can see that. My ex's parents, especially the mother, was very self-absorbed, unpredictable mood. The psychologist I talked to, said, she sounded like she was mentally ill.
Best to you all! :)
I Felt Remiss in Not Returning....
Submitted by kellyj on
In that I realized ( in my true ADHD impulsive fashion ) I had jumped into this thread somewhat prematurely and out of context not having read through it enough to gain a full perspective about the topic ( after you responded to me ). That, and I am both interested in and personally invested in this topic as well. I wanted a chance to return and add some things to this thread and to directly offer you some information I've learned from a life time of discovery and investigation into myself and into the topic of NPD as it's effect on me appears to be resonated repeatedly in this thread and by most people with this common experience.
Stated differnetly.....I see the impact it made on you out of your need to understand it and to recover from your intimate experience with it...in that much, I have been on a parallel journey spanning decades of my life as it has had some reoccurring repercussions from it at various times. From this much I can say I believe I understand your perspective by the questions, assertions and speculations you've made and are looking for answer for answers to.
I say this because I have had some of the exact same ones myself..... ironically, me being male and having ADHD. That anomaly in itself might help in adding contrast to this thread since there is definitely a sub-group bias here in this forum and specifically in this thread as I can see several perspectives happening simultaneously; support and recovery, exchange of information and debate and anecdotal personal experience.
Including the one I attempted ( poorly ) as one out of fear that someone reading this might leave with very mixed and possibly inaccurate information.
I was using myself as (one ) case in point simply trying to say ( and not very well) that I have ADHD, had childhood trauma, had one parent who was NPD (covert but not malignant), have or have had some NPD like behaviors at different stages of my life ( development ) and have officially (by a shrink) diagnosed not having NPD or having a pervasive problem with Narcissistic behavior.
My attempt in this was in my response to fempartner's post about attachment disorder which is what I was specifically commenting to somewhat out of context as I said since I realized from my own research and education on this topic that someone reading this could quickly come to a conclusion that most likely be misleading but at the same time acknowledging that attachment ( theory ) I believe has a large part to play in the discussion.
That was my intent at least so again....I'd like to approach this differently now with better context and offer some insight and contribute the information I have which might prove useful to you or someone else.
Also reiterating that I am seeing myself coming from the inside including being the opposite gender..... not defending ADHD but possibly coming from the same but uniquely different perspective as you and others in this thread. If you take my meaning this might shed some new light on this subject......that and I possess two of the perspectives represented here in this thread ( impact and recovery, personal experience ) plus insight from the inside.
Making a second attempt first....to simply say this topic is so huge that there is no way to even begin to say how many directions this could go but I will try to narrow it down a little which I failed to previously.
Verbosity is a problem for me, and in an effort to keep this post size manageable I'll try to limit the details and examples in support and use what I just said as the basis of my information.
I think the posts made by missbehaven in this thread are as close to accurate from my perspective as one could be.....especially contrasting NPD and ADHD. Nothing I could add would do a better job so I will simply defer (and concur) with everything she said as a start. I think she's right on the money.
In your first comment.....you made one statement implying that NPD came only from trauma or some form of early negative life experience or adaptation to it.
This is not entirely accurate. NPD can come from the opposite in an almost extreme adoration and projected favorable to the child entitlement (from parents/family) in an overt learned ( environment )sense of feeling they are uniquely special and gifted. Cultural and ethnic influences can also play into this. Birth order and family dynamics could have as much or more influence on NPD as trauma.
Singular trauma in childhood is much easier to resolve emotionally (even a parent dying )....
Less obvious but continuous negative experiences that extend throughout the range of child development (over many years) are much more devastating with a higher risk to forming other cluster B personality disorders like ASP or BPD......the fragmenting and distortion or reality and self.
Attachment (theory) including Attachment Disorder which could be one possible explanation within the theory model but it is more rare and not the case in your example. The problem with trying to use attachment theory alone is that it is incomplete.
mentalization capacity, temperament ( introvert vs extrovert) and developmental challenges (nutritional, physical, socioeconomics) including emphasis on education and modeling (copying parents life style and behavior) all have to be taken into account as well as an indicator for arrested or slow development throughout adolescence and into a persons early adulthood ( even into the earl 30's). Life changing events that interrupt normal development like teen pregnancy, fostering a disabled parent or sibling etc.....all effect attachment theory since it is adaptive and has to be re-examined in each stage of a person maturation and development which has also shown that trauma and negative events at different stages of development not just childhood can alter the course either positively or negatively that goes contrary to infant attachment.
Other false negatives research results like some infant attaching to fathers keep diluting the prospect of any one or two factors down to NPD as well.
Attachment theory in itself is so broad and multi pronged and the attachment disorders within it (including RAD) which I think fempartner was referring to is more rare in itself. Statically less probably.
The studies however that stick in my mind that I discussed with my therapist is the most poignant example of the difficulty with all of this. From memory the conclusion was this; that no real conclusive research explains why some people when subject to horrendous childhood and early life negative experience turn out just fine....even to become exceptional individuals that exceed the norm.) .....while others under far less severe circumstances ( researching common aggregate experiences within the studies) showed just the opposite and the kinds of things like NPD and ASPD being present in other cases. A seemingly unexplained lack of correlation .
I should be NPD by all accounts and I not? And there is very little to explain why this is exactly aside from a short list of positive factors which appear to be my only excuse.
I'll just stop at that but at least there's some more possibilities to explore here. My only definitve conclusion to all of this is that it never appears to be just one or two things when it comes to this stuff. I think the reasons are many and vast and it would take a lot to figure it all out. I didn't need to go too much further to convince myself that my issues (even the ones that may appear Narcissistic like at times) are almost all ADHD related. I know this doesn't't solve the mystery for you but maybe something in here is something you haven't researched yet.
I hope this helps
J
I am not sure to whom you are
Submitted by at_the_crossroa... on
I am not sure to whom you are addressing this post. But I did not revive this thread.
It was a toxic relationship, whose corpse is rotting since a long time. I have attempted to comprehend for a while. But assumptions and speculations are futile, when there is no chance to ever verify them.
My goal and focus right now is to find someone new. From my experience with my ex I have added a few red flags to my search. So I am not very inclined to continue dissecting what by now has become to me a case study, which I have already looked at long enough.
Hi...I Was Addressing You
Submitted by kellyj on
I understand what you are saying.....I just left a post responding to Harmony that I could have easil referred back to you in reference to what you are doing and the reasons why. I came to my own conclusions I wrote to her for the exact same reason aside from the part of being raised by someone who sounds like the same as you experienced in a related way. you can just apply what I said to you for clarification and understanding. thanks
J
harmony
Submitted by harmony on
Friendship is an amazing relationship,
I don't know how others understand,
I don't know how others withstand,
It is something hidden and locked by a zip.
To Someone Who Has Been There
Submitted by kellyj on
I find it so interesting that you can immediately tell from a person's descriptions and how they describe something that is very difficult to put into words as you just did......you know that they understand this just as you have here.
In a very similar way....I've had to come to the same understanding and find a way to explain it to myself which is by far the most important thing. It is something that really cannot be resolved but yet we struggle to still find an answer even when we know that it simply cannot be done to our own satisfaction.
I've done my own version of this by not following the reams of data and scientific information and simply dividing people of into a few basic categories when talking about this stuff instead;
Those of us who embrace humanity and are part of it. And those who don't.
And for those who don't and are in pursuit of their own selfish dreams and wishes...
you have ones group who are indifferent to others (and therefore are dangerous and do damage to others out of neglect or careless indifference)
or you have one's who operate more from an evil aspect and do it for fun because they enjoy the suffering of others to make themselves feel something out of their own emptiness at others expense out of envy( for those who have something they do not), greed and self hatred
I see the majority of all people in the first category trying to make our way as best we can and are as flawed as the next person...making mistakes as we go but doing our best not to hurt others even at times when we do....and make an honest attempt to correct our mistakes so we don't repeat them again in an effort not to hurt others as much as we want to do this for our own sake. It's called a conscious.
the second group tends to lack this ability and will continue to hurt others repeatedly and indefinitely but there still is hope they will move forward and join humanity some day and develop a conscious. I tend to view this group as highly suspect since they can care at times but can just as easily not. They are on the fence.
the third group are predictors. Objectively speaking ( they are by design operating from an evil place) ....so I see them as I would a predatory animal in the wild. You know exactly what to expect from them as you would any predictor animal and you don't need to explain it any more than that to understand it no matter what mask they are wearing to fool you the same as any predictor in the wild.
Once you've experienced the third category it changes your perception of humanity forever.
Being raised by someone somewhere in between a predictor and the second category makes it even more confusing and more difficult to spot because you don't recognize them to be predictors elsewhere and therefor it makes you vulnerable to them for that very reason...
that is until you come to this realization or experience it and it changes how you see people.
For me it's easier to see people this way as unscientific as it is.
My personal experience to this was not understanding that the third category was real thinking only in terms of the first two. The concept of someone who enjoys hurting others is a difficult one for me even now as it was hard enough to accept the idea of people who are simply indifferent and fundamentally don't care about others. That alone was troubling enough.
As I was reading your post these were the thoughts that were going through my head because this is exactly how I see it. It's how I can make sense and explain things in terms I can understand as inaccurate as it might be.
J
Perspective
Submitted by jackrungh on
Let's not use the P-word so flippantly. People who actually embody these traits and really do have diagnoses along the lines of Antisocial Personality Disorder are exceedingly rare. Even within the community of ADHD and other co-morbid mental illnesses they are rare. We all have issues with executive function, but the characterization of the psychopath is probably not an accurate label for a single person discussed in these forums.
"A 2008 study using the PCL:SV found that 1.2% of a US sample scored 13 or more out of 24, indicating 'potential psychopathy'. The scores correlated significantly with violence, alcohol use, and lower intelligence. A 2009 British study by Coid et al., also using the PCL:SV, reported a community prevalence of 0.6% scoring 13 or more. The scores correlated with younger age, male gender, suicide attempts, violence, imprisonment, homelessness, drug dependence, personality disorders (histrionic, borderline and antisocial), and panic and obsessive–compulsive disorders."
I Understand That
Submitted by kellyj on
this was coming from a simple mind. My own. You can apply this to my "word salad" as Harmony so intuitively called it. I also understand it from that perspective too.
This was just saying how I can make sense of it all for myself in those terms. Again, from a rather simple and less intuitive perspective I'm claiming as mine but not suggesting it to others.
I have ADHD give me a break. ha ha
J
Second Thoughts
Submitted by kellyj on
I didn't want to be come across as completely dismissive and sound defensive in joking with you ( the trouble with the internet...no non-verbal allowed) which had nothing to do with my second thoughts....
.that being you raised a very important point in your comments and to the one I just made about internet communication. Somewhere in between all the data research evidence as you offered ( without question).....a more spiritual take that Harmony was introducing and all the other speculations and assumption being made in this thread is the truth.....
That being......that people don't fit neatly into packages like we want them to.... and all the empirical data and self perceived notions and personal experience is not going to change that. Your point about pure ASP diagnosis is exactly the point. It's an anomaly rather than the rule.
I can easily make the same argument for people with ADHD/ADD and the current thinking suggest just that....to an even greater degree. It appears that (we) really don't fit into neat packages at all and vary wildly from another.
I think it's a valid point in perspective in the same as you mentioned about discussing ASPD which appears to have even more tightly confined permeates as a guideline.....which is why it's so rare.
A thing to think about when you have something like ADD/ADHD that appears to be be so wide range of in symptoms and behaviors from one person to the next when making definitive statements and assumptions.
I think you hit upon the crux of many of the topics being discussed here on this forum......and for the record....it's also the reason I jumped into this topic in that I started to observe it going in lots of different directions outside of ADHD that probably only exist here because of those who are impacted negatively ( saying it mildly)by someone who has it.
That's the sub group-bias that doesn't appear to get mentioned (in the same token you made your comment) here in this forum
How many people are out there who have ADHD/ADD who are living their lives without in major issues ( or none at all ) including the people who are with them?
It's a fair question and a relative one to your observation. Within the ADHD/ADD community.....where's the empirical data that shows those statistics? If you are going to have a test study or an accurate research (of anything) you've got to have some kind of control group or measure of standard.
This is not a defense or an attempt to minimize or divert this thread but I'm really curious now in light of this discussion and where's it been going?
J
We are all doing the best we can
Submitted by harmony on
We are all doing the best we can. And yes J, this thread is disordered for sure LOL! I noticed the same mix-up you did. Makes tracking the conversation a challenge :)
As I stated before, labels give us context. If I were to just focus on ADD/ADHD I would agree that it does exist but I take it further as to the potential of WHY it exists. I do not subscribe to the notion that it exists just to make us all unhappy, I believe there is a purpose which I described in my last post. The manifestation of ADD/ADHD is purposeful in the sense that it gives (on a soul/spiritual/emotional) level an opportunity to evolve and I don't think a statistic can be put to that. I believe as a collective we are all shifting into a 'Higher' way of thinking and that's why people are having a hard time with pinning anything down. In the fight to create statistics and to categorize the access to REAL help is getting lost or at the very least diluted. I don't think it can be 'pinned' down and given a stat. If we waste our time trying to identify a 'disease' then we are missing the point and we are playing victim to a spectrum that just is. It's a can of worms for sure!
I do not discount the helpfulness of statistics as it tracks what is going on with the population and ADD/ADHD is on the rise significantly. The issue I see is that it's being viewed as only a MEDICAL issue which certainly is part of it but not ALL of it. The scientific community makes it a medical issue. Those who are seemingly not affected by ADD/ADHD either are still banging around trying to figure out what is going on in their relationships or have accepted things for what they are. Again, there is a spectrum and many ways a person can respond to others behavior despite any particular diagnoses.
Those who have a disorder and those affected by the disorder both have the same job and that is to evolve. I'm simplifying at this point because beyond the 'spectrum' and deep within lay a truth with many aspects and outcomes that vary from person to person. It is discussions such as these that provoke consciousness to wake up and I'm happy to participate in that and appreciative of others viewpoints.
I trust and have faith that we will 'figure' everything out. In the meantime, to speak your truth and to be the best you can be in any given moment and hold out your hand to those in need without compromise your to own integrity is a nice place to be.
Introspection and Empathy Harmony
Submitted by kellyj on
These two can be hard to multi task sometimes. lol I think we are both saying the same thing in different ways. And yes....I found myself flipping mentally back and forth but somewhat out of context. I am famous for that all on my own without any help from the computer:)
But I did reread your post anyway and found that there wasn't much there that I haven't come to believe in or see for myself and in that much we are in complete agreement. It caused me to reflect as you said whether it was intended directly at me or not and found by changing my approach to it...I was able to see the path your were on was different than the one I was on but still arriving at the same place and in every way. I also could also see how differently the path you took was from mine. I think that much is clear.
And what does this prove? I don't really know outside of the fact that trying to be empathetic for me without being in front of someone in person so I can feel them and experience them in person is a real problem for me!! ha ha ha lol
that's my final conclusion to all of this! We are exactly on the same page though and if that isn't clear I'm going to go shoot myself. lol
If we were all made the same this would be a boring world indeed.
Take care.
J
More perspective
Submitted by harmony on
You missed the point of the post and it's OBVIOUS you have never been entangled in such a toxic relationship or you are part of the cause of one. It appears you are viewing it from a left brain perspective using stats that have nothing to do with my intent for the article. Furthermore, I did not accuse one person on this forum of being psychopathic, you perceived it that way.
Your in the box, rigid thinking is exactly what I was addressing in the article when I spoke of the ego. To not consider the experiences that people write in about (whether or not you agree with the topic) lacks empathy and is evident of unconsciousness........my point.
You might want to read it again with a different 'lens'.
Spectrum dear Watson, spectrum
pathologically unconscious
Submitted by Standing on
Context? Harmony?
Submitted by kellyj on
I think these posts are getting misapplied out of order? Your comment appears in reference to the one entitled Perception? Is that right? And the one entitled "Perception" was being applied under mine in response to yours? I'm confused now?
and too be sure...the comment I just made about minimizing this thread and the overall content was based on all this data and statical information and diagnostics etc......
To reiterate....I can't tell you enough how much I understand what you just said and to be more specific to your post....having been most definitely impacted by someone with ASPD ( a real one without question ) and without going into all the details.....it's been years of untangling from the toxic effects it's had on me and the fallout from it. I could resound your sentiments exactly. I do try to stay objective and less emotional to it now as it does me no good to keep allowing it to affect my life.
Just to be sure?
J
You are right to be confused.
Submitted by jackrungh on
You are right to be confused. I meant to reply to Harmony's comment directly. To be honest the threading and comment flow in this forum isn't the clearest I've ever seen.
Harmony: Take my name here.
Submitted by at_the_crossroa... on
Harmony: Take my name here. Replace all the underscores by dots and use the big search engine's email service. I am getting tired of the restrictions and censoring on the other site.
Harmony, I did not mean my
Submitted by jackrungh on
Harmony, I did not mean my comment as a rebuttal to any of your intended message. In actuality, I am quite empathetic to your narrative and have nothing at all to say against your experience. I was only pointing out that it is important to be precise with the labels used, because they really do carry a lot of meaning.
There are no shortage of --to be frank: rat bastards-- that have been detailed in the threads and comments of the forum, and the stories of decades of misery move me. These individuals are not, however, psychopaths.
As I said, nothing in what I expressed was a critique of your perspective. I'm not sure how that makes my thinking rigid, egotistical, or lacking in empathy. If it was seen as disrespectful, I am sorry. I want (need) this forum to be a safe place to air my pain just as much as you or anyone else. Indeed, as the ADHD husband in my story I seem to require some kind of outlet like this to even have a fighting chance of keeping my head above water. I don't want to ruffle any feathers or make any stimulating enemies in a community that serves to remind me of my personal objectives.
Higher Consciousness Harmony
Submitted by kellyj on
actions and behaviors=global consciousness and awareness = communal consciousness and awareness = friends consciousness and awareness = familial consciousness and awareness = intimate partner consciousness and awareness .....which requires enlightened self conscience=social responsibility and accountability=personal reasonability and accountability=authenticity=openness=vulnerability=integrity=integration and awareness of conscience and subconsciense thoughts= spiritual awareness=====self
Somewhere in between self and actions and behaviors is where things get all screwed up ...don't you think?
No wonder we have so much trouble getting this right?
I think it takes a life time of failure and trying and I still think it's not enough time....that's what all this pain and suffering is all about......us just not being very good at it yet......and that's the journey we're all on whether we remember (or learn to in the first place?)
how to do it?
All we can do is try our best as you said.....but as long as this is the goal I think we'll be OK.
I couldn't' find your post but I didn't need it because this was the message I got from it. This is where I think we are in agreement? Feel free to switch these around if I didn't get the order right.
J
For Harmony - concerning the full narrative of my experience
Submitted by at_the_crossroa... on
For Harmony:
You suggested to me to make publicly available the full narrative of my experience, which I called the 'relationship post mortem'. I would have preferred to let you read it privately before doing so.
I joined the PF site as you suggested, because there I expected to be able to contact you by PM. Unfortunately their restricting and censoring system did impede this. When I expressed my frustration that I did not want to post an unknown number of forum posts to be allowed to send private messages I have been banned there. Therefore there will be no further contributions from me over there.
Do you have by any chance an account on psychforums.com, where private messages are possible. There I have posted about narcissism.
Hi everyone
Submitted by fempartner on
Hi everyone
I also just want to say, that when I wrote about attachment disorder, it was not to excuse their behavior but as an explanation of their behavior (for some at least). One should of course not tolerate abusive behavior. And it is always up to people (with a disorder) themselves to get help and develop trust.
But for people who have been involved with a person with these problems, it can sometimes help to heal and understand. For instance: it helped me understand my ex's manipulative behavior, why he was doing it. Seeing it through the lens of a child with a severe attachment disorder (which he had according to psychologist/psychiatrist), it all made sense. It helped me understand his sometimes very confusing behaviour/reactions (disorganized attachment).
And I sometimes feel, that on these Adhd forums, they often overlook attachment issues. But in my view, we have all helped putting a focus on that here, so that's good :)
Best to all
The dynamics are often
Submitted by at_the_crossroa... on
The dynamics are often
hidden causes => experienced and observed behavior => impact and suffering => reactions
At the recipient side of a toxic relationship, experiencing behavior and being impacted is unequivocal. But to react in an reasonable and appropriate way depends upon knowledge of the causes. These causes are so often hidden, not only to the target, but also to the actor of the behavior.
People sharing their experiences can contribute to the compilation of a list of possible causes. Every target can only speculate, what would be the most plausible in the individual case. The more complete the list of suggested causes, the more possibilities can be considered. The result are still speculations, but they may be a bit more accurate.
Therefore attachment disorders are also a valuable option in the list of causes to be considered.
I agree, Crossroads.
Submitted by fempartner on
I agree, Crossroads.
Rat Bastards!! LOL!! :)
Submitted by katetd on
hi all, keep trying to post but losing them as my keyboard playing up! Ill try again in smaller installations!? First.y i notice comments keep rearranging the,selves which is confusing so if mine is out of context apologies! 2nd I think this is an important conversation being had here (it must be or it wouldn't be happening in the way it is!?) - even if people disagree,mhave different viewpoints and no conculsive answers can be found! Ok with me - respect and patience and openess is all thats needed?
Im going to say more in a minute my 2cents worth to a few points but eill just tey to get this comment saved first
Hey Kated
Submitted by kellyj on
I think I may have something to say about this topic that you might find useful to you. I too need to just put may 2 cents in here since I've been pulled or compelled to do something I've been avoiding and that is to say what I have to say in narrative form.....sharing my story. I've been dancing around it and talking about "it" without actually telling it here.
For now I just wanted to say that I haven't done this for a variety of reasons but mostly because of my own personal agenda in coming to this forum in the first place which was not exactly related to this (but more specific to my relationship to my wife) and also not quite knowing how to approach it or say what I wanted to say for that reason. At this point I think I know how?
I will say that everything that I heard you say in your story and here in this post I can comment to directly and go further with my own conclusions and experience with it. I think telling my story is the only way to do this and I'm now thinking that it might help someone like you to hear it for that reason alone:)
Before I go right now, I just wanted to say that you are absolutely not alone in your thinking and experience and I could have ( and will ) retell it in my own words when I have a chance to organize my thoughts......that and seeing your intuition upon returning to leave this last post of yours.
The only way I can see doing this is in installments (possibly) and by creating a new topic and finding the time right now. I'll try and do this in the next couple of days. The reason for this that I think sets my story apart is the number of experiences I've had to it spanning most of my life....it could get pretty long lol........... but it's the only way I can see tying all of this together? That and changing tack (from my own personal agenda) to one of offering support and a possible path to healing as I have done....
hopefully? we shall see
coming from one of the most reluctant leaders or role models on the planet:)
J
You & me both!
Submitted by katetd on
I too am a reluctant leader & role model! 2 years involved in secret online support group for Narcissistic abuse survivors & admin for some of that time!! More later!! X
Partial Post for This Thread
Submitted by kellyj on
I'm going to make a valiant attempt to do something that is hard difficult to do accurately. In one sense I've been trying to do this in way one or another for past 50 years (unfortunately) so I'm going to approach this with some authority ( and not mix words) but by no means is this saying there is room for a different opinion without error to be corrected. This is based on my experience only but I think it's a good one to use to help others get some understanding, some clarity and maybe some healing and resolution from the fallout of their own experience. Again...I'm speaking to those currently with (possibly?) , have been with (and looking for answers), and trying to gain some skills in spotting someone who has some form of NPD/ASPD/BPD or even Histrionic type cluster B disorder personality traits as their core feature.....or at the very least someone who is liking to have these to enough that they would be potentially damaging to you or someone you know in connection to having any of these issues. For the sake of this article....I'm just going to lump these together as NPD.
And for the record (as Kated made reference to) a person does not have a full blown diagnosis to be damaging ...... I believe strongly that this depends on a number of extenuating factors, which I think will answered for themselves as I tell my story later.
Before I do this....I want to say in my own words what I believe NPD is and what it is not and how to see the subtle differences. I've come up with a list of what I see as the fundament core elements
NPD is= pathological/ ( pattern ) behavior NPD is not= irrational/ behavior
NPD is= inflexible or intolerant NPD is not= resilient, adaptable, flexible
NPD people appear (hyper) sensitve and feeling NPD are not sensitive and feeling
NPD is = with intent/ a method to the madness NPD is not= unintentional or unaware
NPD is= deception with intent NPD is not= unintentionally deceptive
NPD people make you change or adapt to them NPD people do not change or adapt to you
NPD people= make you feel crazy NPD often do not = appear crazy at all
*crazy appears as a euphemism
NPD people consistently prove that their words don't match up with their actions
NPD peolple do not consistently prove that their actions match up with their words
NPD people appear as "givers" NPD people do not appear as "takers"
NPD people often promise you something NPD have nothing to promise you
NPD people deceive, lie, or mask themselves in fear of the risk of exposing their core insecurity
NPD people are not necessarily people that deceives, lies or mask themselves to hide from: the truth, protect themselves from punishment, are in denial * (the common understanding ) or simply insecure at different times for a variety of reasons none of them being fear of exposing core insecurity * unless these in themselves form a consistent pattern as a group of behaviors which make it even more difficult to spot
NPD can be= any number of behaviors or combinations of behaviors as long as it shows a persistent established pattern that continues uninterrupted with little exception throughout a persons life
NPD is not= intermittent , random, or influenced by external changes with the exception for only brief periods under certain circumstances
Now go back over the list again....try and spot the recurring pattern or inconsistencies within the pattern.....( a clue.....ask: is the overall pattern itself contradictions or inconsistencies ?)
I'll come back to this later when I include this in my story in my other post but I first wanted to post it here back in this thread to separate the two for the sake of those who are trying to determine the difference I am attempting to make here.
Answer
Submitted by kellyj on
NPD people are= contrary (black and white) the opposite in everything no mater how you apply it NPD people= are not inconsistent (almost never)
NPD people are= consistently contrary ....... in everything all the time. This is the key to how to spot them however, this has to done over time in the same way I had to have enough things in this list to compare and contrast the things I did. That's why they are so difficult to spot......almost impossible in only a few encounters for a covet one.....especially for a smart, successful one.
J
"Protecting My Fragile Sardonic Heart"
Submitted by kellyj on
That's what I do....it makes me passive aggressive, makes me bitingly acrid at times and has given me a wonderfully funny sense of humor and an extremely positive and optimistic world view no matter how bad things get..... with an almost uncanny ability to turn lemons into lemonade in most situations....which can be very annoying to some and magnetic to others (depending on the person.) lol
This can impede my ability to be sensitive and compassionate at times but it also has allowed me to put myself into almost anyones shoes and be empathetic to them.....that is unless I forget to put this into practice which at times comes from being obliviously and completely lost inside my hyper focused ADHD head :)
That pretty much sums it up right there. Which is a way of prefacing why I'm doing this (now) and my own personal motivation as well.
This is not why I came to this forum and also why I have been avoiding doing so since I didn't really know how to do both things at once and.....like I'm apt to do....jump right in with both feet and figure things out as I go without any definite plan. For some this might appear like utter chaos and the recipe for disaster and failure...however for me...it's turned into one of my greatest strengths from learning from experience this way in the moment (hands on) ....has given me the ability to deal with crisis, be the go to guy in an emergency and fly by the seat of my pants and come out alive...( which is great when you're involved in certain activities like skiing, motorcycle riding....and yes...even flying an airplane!! ha ha) Not always so good in some ways in a relationship but at the same time with some awareness....can be turned around to being only a positive asset if used judiciously. That is....in part....why I came here to this forum. To learn how to use this strength in becoming only an asset instead of a liability.
I think this is also why I have so much difficulty explaining things at times....since everything always appears to have some story attached to it out of my complete and utter lack and failure in my ability to be succinct and direct.....
so ..in this is my way I am apologizing up front from my total ineptitude and (as I'm well aware..... tedious way of communicating)....my humble regrets and apologies:) lol
And in keeping with this....was unable to explain exactly why I came back to do this until this morning when the gaggle of thoughts in my head finally cleared away enough to actually know the reason why?
It's from the somewhat intangible gut feeling or experience that keeps getting brought up or talked about repeatedly in this forum about Narcissism and the aftermath and at times unresolved injury to your soul that I think a person really never recovers from.....and only someone who has been there has any idea what I'm talking about. For those of us who do.....it is an experience that is nearly impossible to convey to another person to even remotely get them to have some kind of understanding of. I know because I've tried and I've always seemed to fail at it miserably. I also think this is because there simply is not way to do it.....nor would anyone want to actually understand it this way either. Not good, not good! ha ha
My saving grace in any of this comes from the fact that I was introduced to this starting from day one. This does give a person a certain immunity to it (my Sardonic Heart) but also the fore mentioned positive attributes as well. The universe does have a nasty habit in abhorring a vacuum and there really is a silver lining behind every cloud...it's just how works!
But just like becoming inoculated to certain viral diseases.....a live culture must be used in the injection......and in the same way....I built up my tolerance and immunity to it by being injected with certain amounts of Narcissism which also made me vulnerable to it at the same time.
I can see this in myself but not exactly as it might appear on the outside. And directly to the point of why I came back here (to this thread).....is trying to demonstrate exactly how (using myself as a guinea pig... this all works.
I also wanted to add here...that I'm truly writing this with kated, Standing, Harmony,at..the cross roads, fem-partner...or anyone else who I get the sense that something in this might have and answer for you.
I know that there have been times in my life that my own experience with this intangible feeling has led me down to a point that even the tiniest thread of hope or information was all I needed from hitting smack bottom and going off the deep end....this is how I somehow know that all this will make any sense to someone else....and possibly might help give them the thread they can grasp onto as a way of reaching my hand for something to grab onto.
That's truly my only motivation here or else I wouldn't have come back and do this before I leave this sight and focus on my wife and my relationship with her which is doing quite well currently in many ways is the best we've both experienced together.
It's why I have this opportunity (which I've also communicated with my wife about the time spent to do this... which she's OK with it) since we are no longer in crisis mode yet still keeping an eye on the time here so it doesn't interrupt this trend!!! lol
And in keeping with that...I will return later to follow up and connect this with to my list which is an extremely important part in all of the....
it's the part that you as a victim... had to play and seeing within yourself.... in possibly bringing this onto your self by being a victim in the first place and possibly not even knowing it? (being a "mark" or "target" ).....
the same as me.......that's was the most difficult part for me to see too.....and grasp that into this......
and also where........ feeling if I could spare even one person from going through this experience....it's worth the price of admission for me in my incomprehendibly neurotic and self absorbed sounding ramblings in an honest attempt for someone to make any sense of it???????? ha ha
I'll come back later....................
J
Round 2...attachment theroy, ADHD and Narcissists,
Submitted by kellyj on
Soooo....here's how the attachment theory plays into this getting back into that.
The reason I was so interested in this ( and have been) was because of the weird mixture of personality traits and attachment styles I seemed to have...plus my own confusion since none of it appeared to match me well???
My father was anxious/avoidant possibly some dismissive in there too.....definitely a successful covert Narcissist absolutely.
My mom was anxious avoidant/-preoccupied/avoidnat or somewhere in between and by definition and fitting with the model....I experienced early attachment all fitting the early avoidant model especially the contempt for sadness resulting in the humor aspect......and some early anxiety issues as well.
Yet for fun recently ( again which is why I caught this thread) I took an attachment style test to see where I was now....( and probably have been most of my adult life ) but with one excpetion...
the co-dependency Narcissism issue which I really noticed here in this forum? By the theroy model I was at high risk for sure....now wondering?
the test results put me at 3.5 in the anxiety range ( 1-7 right in the middle) the avoidant range was 2.72 with a low anxiety slight to moderate avoidance?
still wondering why is that? but not arguing this at all...it fits me well and it's well into the secure attachment range. I also remember not experiencing new relationship anxiety with friends or girls/women...yet I did have an unmistakable persona or false projected self in there too but that was mostly when I was a teenager and early adult (20's) that I could call up on demand or would appear when I got angry or mad? Plus I was really aware of it since it was in essense...hard to come by ( not fitting me ) and I had to learn to be that way to integrate with other boys or in sports. I remember that taking me a while to mimick or copy and I certainly had a very good example to follow ( my dad)
Then I really did remember.....it was my sisters. for all the messed up...mixed up components to my family including my insecure avoidant attachment, and my Narc dad...I tended to dismiss the relationship I had with my sisters and the role they played in my early life. I was the pest-y little brother who followed around their big brother, or little sister who followed around their big sister.....I was attached firmly to them as they were quite a bit older but still not old enough to not want me around or play with me. I had lots of care and attention from them (including my mom...too much of the wrong kind however with her....the avoidant , contemptuous aspect) but not with my sisters who served to balance me out with my needs as they both took care of me on a daily basis as I became a much better replacement to Barbie dolls for them. lol Unfortuantely...they themselves did not escape so much from it being older and female..
My issues stemmed more from my Narc father who....needing to be mirrored....rejected me (and my ADHD) to being somehow inferior as a good extension for him so he was either more disinterested or annoyed with me (inconvenienced)...but also wasn't around that much or me around him got a full dose of female bonding early on plus my sisters were attractive and smart = boyfreinds....and they had some really great ones that I hung around with too (adopted me into the program)...so I was pretty much welcome and was able to be myself ( ADHD included) without a problem.
But the sense of rejection from my father is what took hold in me (wanting or needing approval at any cost) which set me up for my co-de pendant relationship pattern early on despite the avoidant infant attachment. And even this was tempered by a long standing awesome role model ( replacement dad ha ha) in my swimming coach and other team coach male models.
The bad news in all of this is this; I attracted as much as I was attracted to girls , women and then ultimately one woman who fit closer to Borderline, Histrionic and then one that was all three including Antisocial PD and was also a professional at it....a good one! This string of relationships with these women reinforced any tendencies I might have and I was exactly the kind of guy they were looking for even though in every case for me.....the pattern began feeling alright but when the proverbial switch came in everyone...the underlying anxieties would get re-awakened even if I didn't experience them otherwise. This was my deep seated mothers (close to if not HistrionicPD herself..anxious/avoidant -preocuupied stuff coming to the surface and it was really disorienting....the same as it did when I was around my parents too long.
The other relationship factor that did come into play here ....a healthy one....came from my early sisters attachment to them. Without understanding it at the time...and being a little slow on the uptake in middle school and high school.....I appeared to have a number of girls who were friends as I also was so used to, comfortable with, and respectful of girls or women in general because of and out of my respect for my sisters....I attracted girls who appeared to me as wanting to be friends which I welcomed and maintained throughout school yet...I didn't want to appear too 'squishy" either if you understand this...but had already adopted my "persona" enough not to get confused in this way wither. later after the fact it hit me....duh??....no wonder my girls who were friends seemed to lose interest after a while. ha ha But later, i did have some healthy girlfriends and relationships with girls/women who weren't this way too...but that unhealthy attachment hooked me when I met these other women and I put my head straight into the noose every time :( and would start getting pulled into the pursuit and feeling manipulated and co-dependant pattern repeatedly without the red flags or cues that should have told me that something wasn't right ( with Narcissists in general) much earlier and to break off sooner when I should have felt this or recognized it which I didn't. :(
Now I do :)
not the sharpest tool in the tool box at times with women.....back then especially!
I'll come back to the Narcissist ASPD part in the story later...but this shows how differently things can affect the attachment theory both good which I think it was in my case.....and bad going the other way as well as me being ADHD.
If anyone has their input into this I would welcome it. I've had some professional help here but much of this is based on memory and piecing things together....in no way is this a purley scientific conclusion on my own but it fits my gut, fits my experience and fits what I've learned and know.
If it swims like a duck and quacks like a duck ???
A Child with Narcissism???????round 3
Submitted by kellyj on
" I could call him an unsuccessful narcissist. He has the entire mindset of a narcissist, entitlement and grandiosity delusion, envy, dominance, disrespect, devaluation, egocentrism, lack of empathy. But he has no skill whatsoever to manipulate people, he is much too impulsive to lie or play games. He would not have cheated me, because he had no skill in charming women. He could not control himself to stop interrupting people and listen instead.
It was an dysfunctional combination of ADD-like behavior with the motivation to get narcissistic supply. I was just wondering, if he is a unque case or if this is, what happens, when a child with ADD becomes narcissistic."
Crossroads made an extremely intuitive observation about the man she was with. As I read this it registered with me on so many levels and caused me to reflect....not just about myself but with all the known Narcissistic people I've ever been with (female) or around (both male and female) over my lifetime....and then laid myself over each one in a comparison to see where I could see the difference. In many ways I have done this before on my own......actually thousands of times out of a need to understand this for what I believe is the very same reason.
With me of course...it started with the same feeling that everyone knows from time to time for different reasons..."what's wrong with me?"...... thinking that if you've never asked yourself this question sometime in your lifetime then you should because there really is. And going a step further thinking "if you haven't done this by now it's probably too late!" ( that last dig was a joke just in case;)
This may be how I can answer crossroads question without actually having to answer it? That's not my intention here but I think at least some understanding of it is in mhy own observations of this process I've gone through.
If you can trust that I'm right or even being close to accurate then I already have done this so many times throughout my life time that even from an observational stand point alone (I've not been completely unconscious or unaware of myself during this time...meaning my entire life) and I'm not entirely dim .....I think I can apply what I've learned to what I know and makes some intelligible observations.......
First off.......I was a child once......and I was a (male) child with ADHD. I think this is a relevant starting place. The next observation comes as a question first....can a child be a Narcissist?...imediately thinking that the answer here is no. All children are Narcissis.....and to a certain degree, this is because they haven't had the time to mature and evolve and to acquire the capacity or insight to learned how to control their emotions yet which is a normal part of growing up ...reletively speaking.....this is relevant to everyone.lol
I'm not trying to make a case here for myself or someone who has ADHD....(an argument against crossroads comments) as I said were extremely intuitive and accurate.....what I saw or immediately intuited myself that within her own need to understand this and the observations she made...the answer in part is within the question.
If a=b and b=c then transitive law says that A must be equal to C This an absolute without question....
If all children are Narcissist.....and everyone (was) a child.......then everyone by this thinking is a Narcissist. The key point to make here is WAS. Once your past a certain age you are officially..... by the book..... no longer a child.
I remember thinking that as a child......when I turned 21......I would automatically not have zits anymore, have a full beard and be at the pinnacle of my mental and emotional maturity and intelligence .....ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!
And I firmly believe that Narcissism or any of these related disordered can be easily identified or described as a person of age with the capacity of learning and cognitive skills the same on average as anyone else who stopped evolving emotional and intuitively at some point in the process.
Because that's exactly what it looks like. The same in many cases is true for ADHD and all the descriptions of husbands(mainly) on this forum alone will verify that including me......in my past contributions in some posts I've made.
In both cases....a = b and b=c but a does not equal to c .....and that's the problem.
But now to go a step beyond this and give you my real unscientific opinion here which really does come from the entirety of my collective experience and knowledge plus a good dose of intuition is this;
ADHD by all accounts is a hard wired executive functioning issue ( bio/physical ). I can tell this without question on simply how it feels and the fact that there is simply no other explanation for it (for myself)....in other words it's mechanical brain functioning or dysfunction. The expression...not running on all 8 cylinders could be used here as much as I want to qalify this in defense....(but because I'm compelled ha ha) I will by saying that my own understanding of this expression is "crazy". I don't think crazy has anything to do with ADHD personally ( my own opinion of course :) eccentric ( out of round ) or eclectic yes...sure I don't have any problem with that.
Narcissism has to do with programming. I'm a big fan of innate programming. Animals all have instincts in the wild or they would all behave in random unpredictable ways...but we all know they don't. If you want to argue that humans are just animals with instincts and a cerebral cortex then there you go....I'm down with that.
And now going back to crossroads observation and her comment about a child with ADHD becoming Narcissism in context to everything else she, we and I have been discussing here......that this possible Freudian slip in my observation is one key in solving this mystery.
I didn't get that crossroads was actually being literal or better...she was saying this in context to attachment theory as she's speculated (and was being discussed also by fempartner) .....and where I so delicately and impulsively jumped head first right into this thread for the same reason.
I believe Narcissism is a distortion or malfunction in innate programming not in executive functioning. You the combine the two and that is where things can get really get Fucked up!
Is ADHD the cause for the this distortion? I don't believe this is accurate.....and I honestly would say so if I thought it was. I'd like to know this too if it were.
I believe that kated was absolutely right when she made the comment about "normal Narcissism" in that we are all on the "spectrum" here.
All people are not on the spectrum when it comes to ADHD............a therefore does not equal c because b and c are not equal.
Comorbid is not a linear expression as defined.......: "existing simultaneously with and usually independently of another medical condition." "usually" does imply that in some cases this is not true....but that's just a qualifier. I think this is the stuff where my own "conspiracy theories" were born out and mostly proved to be wrong.
Is ADHD a compounding or exponential factor? you betcha......this is just one mans opinion.
The definition of ADHD in itself ( as I understand it) was conceived and derived by anecdotal observation as "viewed from the outside" I'd like to clobber the person who coined this definition because the implications within it leads a person to make assumptions that the definition is a literal diagnosis by itself. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr mother F$%*r!!
However..... this is truly more relevant...... and in many cases an accurate way for someone like me to put this into their perspective as a means to see themselves....I will concede to that much in it and by itself is very useful for (us) to understand.
What's even more important to this discussion is how we appear or better.....the reaction or affect we(ADHD) have on another person which from everything I've learned and now have come to understand much more clearly is hard to discern experientially or emotionally from Narcissism from the outside.
The case in point using my self as the example that I just experienced with my wife. My own seeming inability to discern this very reaction in her and therefor not understanding it or being able to interpret it.......and simultaneously, her not seeing this in herself at the same time.
I've made comments or references to this in the process of me trying to figure this out but at the end of the day.........she's anxious and I'm avoidant. I make people who are predisposed to anxiety issues ( or fall into the predominately anxious/fear catagory in attachment theoryy even more anxious.....and anxious/fearful people in general make me anxious where I was not before.....which makes me avoid them!! lol
Anxiousness, fearfulness, negativity.....even people who are rather melancholy or facial expressions have a more sour or stern nature or who do not smile or laugh easily or show outward signs of happiness more than not......have a response in me to want to move further than closer depending on my interpretation of this. People who are out and out nervous and fearful either verbally or physically( worrying or complaining of discomfort, quick hesitant or unsure body language or outward signs of being jumpy, startle easily, panicky alarmed responses in a general way under normal conditions elicit the exact same feelings in me just to be around them which I do not experience on my own unless I'm in their presence. My natural and unconscious response is to get away from those feelings ( to make them stop) and avoid or get away from the source. Otherwise.....internally on a daily basis I feel calm and level without feeling of anxiety. I self sooth quickly and easily and bring down my own anxiousness in most situations without any problem and stay focused ( being good in crisis and emergency) To the point of being stoic at times.
But the more I feel this in others.....the more I do to counter these feeling which in many cases causes me to downplay, minimize, reduce the impact or importance, talk a person down,or overtly (or passive aggressively) criticize my experience and there for the other person without awareness of this when I perceive these things in a person that I consider extreme based on circumstances. And in rare extreme circumstance when another person appears to be out of control......I experience a panic attack of my own based on the other person ( or that's how it feels.....the unconscious response to them)
This doe not come across as being very compassionate or empathetic I can tell you.....it's hard to be compassionate of someone else's emotional crisis, fear,trepidation or worried concern when their response or outward behavior is causing a crisis of your own internally! lol All you can feel is wanting to get away from the thing that is triggering this response in you...or....in some way get them to stop
What I just described the best I could is an internal unconscious tendency in behavior or reaction that fits with avoidant personality (mine) This can range anywhere from undetectable -sub conscious to a sense of extreme panic, claustrophobia, raised heart and metabolism levels and overwhelming discomfort on the high end of the scale. Devcon 4!!!! This is just simply being in the same room with someone like this....the tension I experience to this can be amazing but I rarely display any outward signs until it gets really bad. Normally I just leave unless there is no other option. This has nothing to do with what's going on around me. A bomb could go off in the next room and I'd feel far less tension.
On the other side of the coin is all of you. This is the part that you know all too well. How I deal and manage this is probably different than many but I have a very long fuse to this kind of transferred nervous tension and fear unless I can't escape from it after too long a time and it is extremely rare for me to hit the end in my extreme version. I handle physical pain and discomfort extremely well and have a high tolerance to physical pain, heat, cold, fatigue, aches, pains, injury.....you name it. Put me in a room ( or car for example)...with a nervous back seat driver and I almost come unglued internally!!!
There is a part to this that I now realize that comes out of me whether I know it or not....my body language, tone, stress relieving strategies or outward verbal communication all fluctuate and vary to this and I know now than ever that this is what is being picked up on by others.....which includes their own reactions and responses to it.
Simply put...nervous fearful people make me nervous and fearful where I would not be otherwise. People who are nervous and fearful on their own view me as a psychic terrorist when my energy to them cause theres to go through the roof. I see the ceiling or their roof mighty close to their heads anyway so they don't have far to go. In comparison.....I live in the basement. ha ha
The point to this is to say that I don't see any connection to this and being Narcissistic however.......a n avoidant person like me with ADHD who is also a Narcissist would have a much different response than I would I could guarantee it. I care....they don't. I try everything I can not to have this affect others. They would probably berate them or criticize them for making them feel this way. Bottom line here is.....I do my best not to show or react to my own feelings and report this back to others even under pretty severe circumstance out of courtesy and respect. Not so much with my experience with a Narc.....I could imagine hundreds of creative versions to this and none of them would be mine.
What's important to consider here is....where are you on this scale coming from the other side? How do you perceive yourself into this scenario as a baseline for your own perception? I don't make everyone I meet fearful or nervous.......I only have this affect on people who are already nervous and fearful to begin with....and they to me as a symbiotic relationship.
And yet...none of this has anything to do with Narcissism.......with the exception to my extreme response in which case another person would be show compassion or empathy to a person displaying signs of distress where all I can do is maintain myself or think about moving farther away. This would appear as very unfeeling and unemphatic and I know there have many times this has been pointed out to me.
I also painted a somewhat extreme version to both sides to demonstrate this effect and in reality....the real problem exists on a subconscious level for both side of this phenomenon. This is in essense.....the very one that was causing many or the communication problems that my wife and I were having as this was happening simultaneously during the conversations themselves
.
But this is out of context to the discussion going back to the beginning of cross roads post.
missbehaven comparisons that she made from that perspective were some of the best ones I heard made to date as I said.......but are also not relevant to the context of this discussion either ( nor where I'm coming from here)
So what's the answer here? I tried not to lead anyone to a conclusion and I don't have one exactly by itself. I do believe I'm accurate in the things I said here and that does lead me to make some assumptions but that's it.
What I wanted to say more importantly was out of my own recognition of what cross roads, fempartner or anyone else reading this thread is doing for the same reasons I have which comes more from having someone with issues in the Narcissistic range of personalities do a pretty convincing job of distorting your own perception of reality and sense of stability and sanity and then going back to try and see.......
what just happened to you? How did I get this way? What's wrong with me? Am I going crazy? It must be me not everyone else (them)? I can't trust my own feeling here? I feel so disoriented and surreal? Nothing this person say about me seems to make sense? Nothing they do seems to make sense? I don't understand?
I can tell you I don't or didn't feel this way when I was around my sisters or friends ( also many other people) I only felt this way....or started to feel this way when I was around a Narcissist and that right there is the most exactly indicator I've got for identifying a Narcissist.
At this point I've learned to believe in myself and my own intuition enough to not believe all the years of being told this and assimilating it into my thinking to the point of insecurity. If I begin to feel insecure around someone I immediately go straight to Narcissism as its cause first but only to take a closer look.
For me this was what was missing in my ability to see them.....I immediately went inward straight to my heart and began to think poorly of myself and not trusting my own intuition enough to considered that the other person was manipulating me to feel this way.
That's truly where the damage is done....to your self esteem. They attack it first and always need to be above you so they can control you this way by bringing you down. that's the MO. But it's also why when I begin to feel these old feelings of insecurity in myself it is such a good indicator for me pointing to Narcissism as the source.
A Narcissist has no power over you if you believe in yourself and trust your intuition and feelings.
J
I've enjoyed your post of NPD
Submitted by c ur self on
I see myself in it...I have had some of these traits, and like you said I was molded by insecurities formed from believing lies, ( the inability to say "I can't") not lies about what is right and wrong. But the deception that somewhere in my personal abilities...Mind and emotion I could bring order to any situation...The NPD no one wants to be around only surfaces, when we confuse personal convictions of accountability for ourselves to an outward infliction on all people who do not see it our way. "I'm the God here"
Can The Word Narcissistic Be Applied To Children?
Submitted by at_the_crossroa... on
Can The Word Narcissistic Be Applied To Children?
This is a reply to JJamieson's suggestion, that children are already narcissistic and so someone cannot become so later, but can just remain so instead of maturing. That is how I did understand his post. To avoid confusion of the thread, I start here.
Children until maturing are selfish and selfcentered. Whatever they get, they take it for granted, no matter if it is a material gift or a praise. They do not consider the alternative, that someone else would get it or that they would not get it. Children somehow perceive themselves as the center of amorphous surroundings existing to serve their needs. Children, who do not get, what they want, can get frustrated or make efforts to elicit it from the surroundings. They take, gain or earn.
In my understandings, while narcissists are also selfish and selfcentered, they cannot be narcissists without a clear knowledge, that the surroundings are not amorphous, but are filled with distinct persons, who compete for resources. But the narcissists do not accept the position they can achieve, instead they perceive themselves as innately only suitable to be automatically at the top of the hierarchy with all attached privileges. Narcissists feel entitled to get the privileges due to their alleged superiority. They are aware of the existence of others and what they want, it just does not matter to the narcissists.
Narcissists' attempts to get narcissistic supply are based upon the knowledge, that there are often obstacles to overcome, when they want to get, what according to their delusion inferiors would really owe to them.
Aware and intentional
Submitted by Standing on
Standing I Just Wanted to Say to You...
Submitted by kellyj on
....that I went through a process very similar to all of the things I'm writing to you for one reason only ( a selfish one ). After I got "nuked" emotionally by the gal I described in my story here.......I had to find some way to rationalize or talk myself out of the exact thing you just said "she was aware and intentional." For that reason ALONE. There was simply no way I was ever going to believe any different. This became a problem for me because I was burning from my head down to my toes 24/7 for a while. I had to find a way to believe my therapist when he told me not to take it personally I simply wouldn't believe him.
But he was right and now so am I in saying the same thing....it's not personal. he's not aware ( because something is broken) and it's not intentional( because something is broken)
Okay, J.
Submitted by Standing on
But I also know awareness when I see it and at some levels I do see it in him. I can tell when he's unaware, too.
Not everyone is at the same level of incapacitation due to personality disorder.
There is a very clear distinction between my spouse's "I have no clue how poorly I am treating you" and "I know exactly how you feel, but I do not care, because I am #1,"
And really... I am not burning from head to toe, I just plain do not want to have to work with him anymore.
Thanks!!
I Hear You Standing...
Submitted by kellyj on
and I really do understand exactly what you are saying...( more in reference it sounds like to your husband's right hand man who just quit which was me less than 2 months ago myself...that was me. I get it) I'm not angry ( or was ) with my ex boss....I was just sick of it and fed up.
But this is NOT what I'm talking about...repeat NOT. I'm not invested in trying to fix anyones problems here or give advise..... and I fully expect that most of what I've said is going to get immediately thrown into the recycle bin as well.....I don't care about that....at all!
What I do care about is you....you and everyone else here that I see who is hurting. Just like you were saying about going to the councilor and his advise not really helping much in the moment or could be applied to your particular situation.
What I'm doing is planting seeds for the future because I've been there enough times to know that once in a while...you need an extra step up and there isn't one there when you need it. I don't expect anything I've said is going to carry much weight...and I know for a fact it's probably not going to make anyone feel better (right now) or win any friends at the same time.....actually, thinking just the opposite:)
What I'm hoping is that if I throw a few life preservers out there and a few extra steps scattered around that some one will randomly come across one when they might need it most and then go back to the business at hand...my relationship with my wife and focusing on the things I need to do. I got everything I needed by being here already and in keeping with what I just said I did that too. It's all good.
It's not how you feel right now that I care about...it's how you feel a year from now and after that.
And sometimes I now that when your around someone like your husband.....you just get saturated with exactly what you just said.....they just don't care,
Once in a while...it's good to hear that there are other people out there who do care whether you ever meet them or not....as a reality check when you start seeing the world is full of bad guys instead of people like yourself.
I really do need to stop now like I said before but it was important for me to do this if not for anything else but for what I just said.
And for the record....I do care.
J
I appreciate you, J.
Submitted by Standing on
I think that I am just full up past my eyeballs with considering narcissists and personality disorders and add and all things dysfunctional.
This rubbish has taken up too much real estate for tooooo long. I still think it's primarily a spiritual issue and I still think that some can change, if they will humble themselves, but I wash my hands of trying to figure out whether change may actually be occurring. The proof will be in the pudding. In the meanwhile, life goes on and stuff happens.
Take good care... and thank you!
Thanks For Responding ...Finishing Up Too
Submitted by kellyj on
Thank you for responding...and you raise some good points. I wanted to approach you again to say that from the sound of it.....I was very much in the same place you were in now not that long ago relatively speaking...it's how I could relate to what you are doing as I did the same thing for myself in what sounds like a very similar way....at least in part.
This came at the end of an odyssey and intimate encounter with one sub group in Narcissism ( and her "posse") that involved threats to myself and family to the degree that US Federal Marshals were brought in and ultimately made one arrest which resulted in the strangest twist of fate with that same person jumping ship and helping me in my efforts to protect myself and family for the future. Nothing in my past experience could have ever prepared me or given me the capacity to predict my experience as this is the stuff movie scripts are made from and it tested me in ways I had ever imagined possible...and what they feared from me was the risk of exposure and being caught which made me a threat to them and a danger to me.
It caused me to lose my faith for myself and for humanity but ended as a blessing in re-finding a new faith that transcended the one I had known....but I desperately needed to find that same faith for others as it was impeding my ability to trust and to have a new start..... and my ability to reach out and find new relationships in my future.
This process ended up with me taking 3 years off from dating or seeing anyone outside of friends and those people who stepped forward to help me in this process. At the end of this.....I met my wife and reintegrated myself socially with a renewed faith and ability to forgive and move forward. The other blessing that I received came from my need to protect myself and in my ability to understand and resolve my experience in way that allowed me to do this.... which also required me to see myself within it and the mistakes I had made including how to see these people now in a way that I was naive to before. This new insight and vision also allowed me to go back into my past and to recognized them there as well.
That's why I feel I have something to offer here as well as the other experiences I had with Narcissism in my family and my past relationships. To be sure....this was not a case of a bad relationship and ugly break up. This was an encounter with the underbelly of humanity and experienced professionals so to speak as I was a "mark" from day one with the intention to do exactly what they did. This was reported back to me by this persons brother who she had done something similar too including her own mother as well as a string of other men in her past. This also included the person who turned on these people as she had been thrown to the curb and set up herself to take a fall as a means to legally insulate themselves in the process. It was both eerie and surreal to be working with this person for me but I gained a new capacity for compassion and forgiveness as a by product of this relationship.
It was the unexpected people who stepped forward to help me at the times I needed it most that brought me back to do this as this was not why I came to this forum as I said before. My thinking is that I might be able to do this in my own way in an effortt to pay it forward for the same reason.
JJamieson's suggestion, that children are already narcissistic and so someone cannot become so later......
I'm sorry for that confusion....I'l try and state it simply. It's a normal stage of child development to be Narcissistic in this way for all of us. But it's also normal for a healthy integrated individual to evolve out of being this way and maturing at the same appropriate stages in childhood to becoming a secure and fully functioning adult. At some point or stage in this process.....a person who end up with these issues departs from or has this normal process corrupted in a way where this doesn't happen...yet going back to their early chldhood...they began no different than anyone else at that time being normally Narcissist. This is true for everyone without exception as being normal and appropriate. I hope this makes sense.
The points I were making were more in keeping with ADHD being one possible cause ( and your original question) and then trying to show that distinction by integrating attachment theory into the this as a way to explain it...the same as you referred to doing now as a way to spot someone for the future in finding a new potential partner (and healing?)......as I did too. Including going back and looking at your past relationship in your ability to do this....as I did as well.
That's the context that I am coming from and a way to offer you or anyone some new insight ( in the same I needed for myself....not knowing exactly what someone might need and trying to cover as many bases as possible because of it. I know I was searching hard for understanding and every new thing I would read or researched only added to what already new.....many times making sense later even if I hadn't assimilated of this together the same I have been able to now.
I found this actually served to strengthen my relationship with my wife as I became hyper vigilant there for a while and the knowledge I attained became a way for me to differentiate healthy or normal Narcissism in everyone when it appears at only appropriate times. We all exhibit these traits to some degree even it might only appear under unusual circumstance ie; distress or duress when needed as a strategy for survival. i can tell you that part of the testing that I endured taught me that under extreme circumstances...the temptation for revenge out of fear anger can become overwhelming. Losing touch with the feedback from your healthy self leaves you open to adopt a very self serving, self entitled way of thinking as a victim that is no better than the person that has hurt you or done damage to you. It's a test of faith that you cannot experience until you are actually tested. The tendency (I've done myself before) is to think of what you would do and how you would feel in that situation and then make judgments or voice an opinion where this is simply not possible until you've been there. All you can do is to project yourself into that experience and try and imagine what that experience would be like. What I discovered was quite different than that once I was actually experiencing for real. It's an incredibly humbling and vulnerable feeling and it forces you to learn, adapt and grow to survive or turn away from it in fear and withdraw.
The last two posts (3?) were still made in reference to spotting Narcs as you say you're trying to do. I think this has incredible value for someone including those coming to the forum possible with one?.....also trying to show how to use or see possible causes or predictors using attachment theory which I absolutely think is where you need to begin for this reason. The reason for using myself in this is simply from my experiences from it and a way to relate my experience with it in a way to explain it.
The points that Standing and yourself made brought to think of a way to further do this by simply introducing these people to you and talk about it from that place....the Narcs in my experience and giving some reality ( by putting a face) to the descriptions to use as a reference
I pulled these brief descriptions from the web so I can do this for you which is worded much better and more accurately.
"Not all narcissists are the same. Millon and Davis (1996) describe the following subtypes of people with NPD: the unprincipled narcissist, the amorous narcissist, the compensatory narcissist, and the elitist narcissist. As you read about these subtypes, see if any seem similar to the person you have concerns about. Note that both men and women can fall into any of these categories, and the narcissist in your life may exhibit traits of more than one subtype."
The Unprincipled Narcissist
What characterizes this group of narcissists is that they seem to be devoid of a conscience, or sense of right and wrong. They are often unconcerned with the welfare of others and are amoral, unscrupulous, and deceptive in their dealings with others. They exude an arrogant sense of self-worth and grandiosity. They are driven by a need to outwit others, which proves that they are smarter than those they prey on. It’s not unusual to find this type of narcissist in jails, prisons, and drug rehabilitation centers although many unprincipled narcissists go through life without running afoul of the law.
The Amorous Narcissist
Amorous narcissists have an erotic or seductive orientation. They construct and measure their self-worth around sexual conquests. They often run through a string of pathological relationships, casting aside the person they have just seduced only to look for their next conquest. Amorous narcissists are often known for being heartbreakers, as well as committing some rather outrageous acts, such as conning their sexual partners out of huge sums of money, pathological lying, and other types of fraudulent behavior. The amorous narcissist is truly the Don Juan character who compensates for deeper feelings of inadequacy by seducing others and taking them for all they’re worth. Each sexual conquest reinforces the amorous narcissist’s sense of self-worth and over-inflated self-image.
The Compensatory Narcissist
This type of narcissist is driven by a need to compensate for past hurts or childhood emotional wounds by creating an illusion of superiority. Compensatory narcissists live in a fantasy world of their own creation in which they “pursue the leading role in a false and imaginary theater” (Millon and Davis 1996, 411) rather than living their own lives. They are driven to enhance their self-esteem through what are often imagined achievements. In order to achieve this goal for prestige, compensatory narcissists need an audience of others who will buy into their deception. In fact, compensatory narcissists are often hypervigilant or highly sensitive to how others react or perceive them, often watching or carefully listening for any signs of criticism or disdain.
The Elitist Narcissist
In some ways similar to the compensatory narcissist, elitist narcissists are often obsessed with their own inflated self-image. They often create a false sense of self that bears little resemblance to their actual selves, yet they manage to convince themselves (and often those around them) of their unique talents and abilities. They feel empowered and entitled to special treatment because of whatever status or pseudo-achievements they may have attained. Elitist narcissists often turn relationships into competitions or contests, whether they are work relationships, friendships, or even love relationships. Here the goal is winning, no matter what the means or cost, in order to prove to others (and themselves) their incomparable superiority. Elitist narcissists are often social climbers and they think nothing of stepping on or over anyone in their quest for fame and status. They are very adept at marketing themselves and will not shrink from any opportunity to do so. Because elitist narcissists hold themselves in such high regard, they see little need to listen to others or follow directions.
Fanatic Narcissist: People in this category may have suffered some childhood trauma that resulted in a lack of self-esteem. Consequently, they fantasize about and put into play grand schemes that will make them appear significant in the eyes of others. When these actions fail to impress their associates, they begin to think of themselves as a hero with a great mission to accomplish.
Men and women who have narcissistic tendencies based on their intellectual abilities or scholarly achievements may be labeled as “Cerebral.” Those who base their narcissism on the shape of their body or other physical assets may be labeled “Somatic.
Starting with my father for example: he fit the Elitist subtype described here pretty well...not exactly in the social climbing aspect...more in business and the drive for success and money. He was definitely the more covet type where the underlying issue is based on shame. He also had some of the Unprincipled traits as well which I believe came more from his past but later didn't fit as well later in life after he married my mother.
The woman that I encountered fell perfectly into both the Unprincipled category and the Amorous one with elements of Borderline and some Histrionic disorder as well. She was very good at doing what she did and experienced at it to. She would also be labeled Somatic according to these descriptions.
I'll come back to finish and talk about this some more............
I'm back, sorry I was drifting late last night and I could see myself becoming a bit scattered here before:)
and to be sure I'm still in the same context where we started " that children are already narcissistic and so someone cannot become so later" about children becoming Narcissist and continuing to move forward with the same train of thought, bear with me please:)
So......it was pretty easy to pick my father and my past relationship out of the a number of others Narcissists since they shared some similarities but were both very different. I specifically wanted to use them in this discussion because I know a lot about their childhood upbringing...(back to Narcs as children) and the fact I've had my therapist help me dissect them in relationship to me
Side note: this was for that very purpose being... not trying to figure out what was wrong with them but more where I was wrong with me wording it that way. I'll come back to this for sure.
I knew how they ended up for sure....what I learned more from this was now they got to be this way. This gets right down to the concept of your true self and false self....or better, your integrated self which is the key component I feel in trying to explain my thoughts.
I believe ( which means this is up to my own personal interpretation instead of reading it out of a book...also completely left open for critique and correction! ) that in both cases I used...the cause of their disorder originated from some severe childhood trauma and abuse which I do know about. Less important in the detail but more about the effect. Based on my premise that there is healthy Narcissism and unhealthy Narcissism I'll try to demonstrate that here.....and still maintaining that we all started out by being normally Narcissist as children.
Basically....my understanding of the term "mentalization" refers to the feedback loop between your ability to process emotions,self and others in complex ways in order to socialize and interact with each other with continuity between self and another person. Which gives us the ability to empathize. I believe with Narcissism ( and specifically my examples ) this ability was been corrupted or perverted in such a way by the pain of their abuse and trauma....that they lost connection or split off from this ability ( their internal feedback loop) out of psychic defense and protection.
I could use a clinical explanation here but I wanted to recount what I say and explain how I observed it....again, in my own words.
You stated.."while narcissists are also selfish and selfcentered, they cannot be narcissists without a clear knowledge, that the surroundings are not amorphous, but are filled with distinct persons, who compete for resources."
I have to disagree with you here.....or at least by definition. Replace distinct persons with distinct "objects" and then say they are aware of the "object" instead. What's amorphous is their false self.
In the case of the woman I encountered ( for the sake of argument I'll call her the ex-girlfreind of egf) I witnessed her ability (over time)to continually re-invent her self at will. Later I realized this was solely based on her mood in the moment and her emotional state yet.....she could pull out of this also at will when needed and become a different person entirely.....to take on a role as needed? It appeared at first as being shallow or superficial but became increasingly concerning to me because it began resonating something similar to my father in more specific ways. My red flags were starting to go off but I did not know how to recognized or interpret them.
More simply put is that appeared as she was acting a part or role but with no consistency to it at all. The part that resonated was the part that was based in the moment on her emotional state or mood. She was a moving target and it became increasingly difficult to pin her down and have a conversation with. That part was the same as my father which I was very familiar with. And the results were the same in both cases......reactive anger that was completely disproportionate to what was happening in reality??? But more specifically when I would attempt to corner (either one) in a conversation in my attempt to follow or make sense... and then finally being very direct in observing what I was seeing them doing....saying many times and old default learned in conversations with my father " I know what your doing here" or "I know what you are trying to do here" or "who do you think you are kidding? or something like that. It hadn't occurred to me that I learned these phrases from my father who use them himself. The reaction were overwhelming similar and at times extreme.....anger or personally attacking. Little did I realize at the time I was calling their false self out or by showing them how phony and pretentious they were being....exposing or threatening to expose their wounded true self. In their case, the true self that they denied and cut off and removed from the normal loop or emotions and "mentalization" that a healthy integrated person has ( and takes for granted) out of protecting themselves (or their psyche) from the shame, hurt and unresolved negative emotions that (IT) carried within.
"It" is a good term for their true self. Their conscious self or the one they created is the only one they are aware of....the one that's being presented to the outside world. Without this active feedback loop...all cognitive processing is disrupted because they have no concept of their other half. No communication between the two because to a certain degree...it's been split off and is separate. "IT" being a thing not a person. "It" was the enemy here. Their false identity, fake facade, projected self...however you want to say it...is the one you or I are having the conversation with. The false self or "persona" exists only in their heads and it was created the same I guess you'd say as a person would sit down and write a script for a play. You are not a person....you are a created role which serves a purpose only to the play. You are an "object" or a "thing". Things are not people. Things don't have rights especially if you are the director. Things don't talk back....try and change the script....or have boundaries. Rules do not apply to things. You can do whatever you want to a thing because they only exist to serve you the director of the play. Things don't get to have boundaries...things don't get to have feelings....things are for you to use and dispose of as needed...like a piece of used Kleenex.
But mostly things are there for that person as a dumping ground for all bad emotions or feelings via the "true self" which is the enemy anyway How convenient? This happens because the disconnect between the feedback loop for processing and resolving the painful emotions has been short circuited so to speak.
And you the "object" or "thing" is just an extension or role in the play in their head....the one they control to fit their mood or emotional state of anxiety and is dependent of how well you play your part whether you get the dumping off of or projecting of the painful emotions ( that are perceived as coming from you of course) or behave yourself and fit your role...and learn your lines and stay in line.
As I had come to understand this better...as I saw it with my egf....this is exactly how it appeared however....I recognized this pattern from before and eventually came to the same conclusion that this was a deeply engrained pattern. That and I also recognized the feeling that were coming out in me and feeling pulled back into a pattern that had this vaguely...then later remarkably similar feeling in me that I also knew was not good. My processing too had become irregular feeling plus I started to notice a change in myself....becoming increasingly nervous and angry with a sense of foreboding that I knew but wasn't able to connect at the time exactly....also starting to watch my behavior change too as I said.
All of this took place during the aftermath of my divorce, being diagnosed with ADHD and grieving the loss of my marriage which in laymen's terms was being "ripe for the picking" for a person like this. As I processed through my loss more and more is when I began to become more aware that something definitely was wrong.
I the "object" in this case was a "mark" to be taken for and taken advantage for that purpose only. I was lucky in many respects as it could have been worse mainly out of my experiences in the past which were much more innocuous than this excepting for the one I had growing up which acted in this case as the baseline for the old feelings.
These two experiences were based on this type of Narc...referring back to your comments and Standings which left me with the impression that a person with this type of NPD is aware of what they are doing and to whom. I hope my example clarified this some.
Of course the person you see in front of you is awake and talking to you and knows who you are....I'm saying, they haven't a clue who they really are since it's a virtual concept in their head and you are not a person but an extension of this false (phony, make believe ) ideal self image....This is why everything has to have a label for context including for themselves. It's where the "I am XXXXX" come from...wierd out of context self proclaiming statements that appear disjointed and out of the blue. I remember looking over my shoulder and saying "who are you talking to?" with another Narcissist I knew which was never much appreciated. I had an ability to sense or recognize what was happening in context even if they didn't...but my response to this was passive aggressive for the same reason as a way to try and get the to see it too. Not saying I understood this the way I'm saying it here...but intuiting it never the less and not liking it at the same time. I didn't know any better? I also didn't realize that many times...the anger from them would come later instead of right then in the moment. I have more to say on the reasons why I think that is.
Anyway.....everything has to have a compartment or special place to fit and if it doesn't fit."IT" has no value. The triage or culling system in their head only registers...good or bad. Bad goes straight to the dis -owned bad self and then out the projection door...good stays only if it has value. You are not a you...you are an "IT" and they (the true disowned bad and disconnected self ) is serving another master...the ideal self image. In reality, you are really you and the ideal self image is amorphous since it is constantly being reinvented based upon the disowned self which is stuck inside the disconnected feedback loop somewhere...the perpetual "mentalization" disconnected feedback loop....like a broken record.
In the case with my father...."IT" meaning "me" didn't make a good extension or didn't fit into the role I was supposed to have. Ultimately, this is exactly how I felt about my self too when I was young but mostly only while I as around him. Not fitting or of no value. The rest of the time (around my sisters, freinds, team mates, other families, etc) I didn't feel this way.
The reason I didn't make a fitting "object" in his eye had a lot to do with my ADHD ( being rejected or criticized for it) so from this perspective it's hard for me to say there is a correlation to ADHD as possibly causing a person to be Narcissistic even having been raised by one ( going back to the other extenuating circumstances too).
But again....I'm talking about this subgroup. The overt group or Compensatory as I learned from Standing....is a different story. They are aware that their surroundings are not amorphous. They appear to feel the need to be and truly think they are superior, above you , better than you etc....out of feeling inferior and low self esteem.....actually being aware of the feelings but still processing or better filtering it so it comes out feeling better to them. When Standing brought this up I realized that I a former coworker that I knew fit this extremely well as he appeared to be Narcissistic in some way and not in others ( the type I was used to) I know nothing about his background or childhood to have a clear picture to this.
I do remember however, that in many ways I resembled this profile during my teens years but it diminished over by time by my mid to late twenties. Now wondering if this is not part of the adolescent immature male stage of development in part? Back to normal or appropriate ( to a degree) for someone in this age range? I don't know? I was slow to grow ( late bloomer physically) and behind in maturity across the board compared to some, less than others?
I also wanted to mention the :feed back loop and myself here. This picks up in part about the delay in anger response I referred to and being stuck in the loop. This thinking was something that I came up with and ultimately arrived at on my own a long time ago ( as a teenager) and has developed since then. This is purely observation about myself but I suspect it has something to do with this topic.
I remember reading the book on the stages of grief Death and Dying by Elizabeth Kubler Ross when I was in high school and it resonated deeply within me.....the processing and stages of grief (7 stages). It seemed unknowingly familiar to me yet I didn't know why? Not until my first break up (first love) until I experienced this for the first time....yet still I found my way through the process even though...there were stages of it I never really made it through:
SHOCK & DENIAL-
You will probably react to learning of the loss with numbed disbelief. You may deny the reality of the loss at some level, in order to avoid the pain. Shock provides emotional protection from being overwhelmed all at once. This may last for weeks.
PAIN & GUILT-
As the shock wears off, it is replaced with the suffering of unbelievable pain. Although excruciating and almost unbearable, it is important that you experience the pain fully, and not hide it, avoid it or escape from it with alcohol or drugs.
You may have guilty feelings or remorse over things you did or didn't do with your loved one. Life feels chaotic and scary during this phase.
ANGER & BARGAINING-
Frustration gives way to anger, and you may lash out and lay unwarranted blame for the death on someone else. Please try to control this, as permanent damage to your relationships may result. This is a time for the release of bottled up emotion.
You may rail against fate, questioning "Why me?" You may also try to bargain in vain with the powers that be for a way out of your despair ("I will never drink again if you just bring him back")
"DEPRESSION", REFLECTION, LONELINESS-
Just when your friends may think you should be getting on with your life, a long period of sad reflection will likely overtake you. This is a normal stage of grief, so do not be "talked out of it" by well-meaning outsiders. Encouragement from others is not helpful to you during this stage of grieving.
During this time, you finally realize the true magnitude of your loss, and it depresses you. You may isolate yourself on purpose, reflect on things you did with your lost one, and focus on memories of the past. You may sense feelings of emptiness or despair.
More 7 stages of grief...
THE UPWARD TURN-
As you start to adjust to life without your dear one, your life becomes a little calmer and more organized. Your physical symptoms lessen, and your "depression" begins to lift slightly.
RECONSTRUCTION & WORKING THROUGH-
As you become more functional, your mind starts working again, and you will find yourself seeking realistic solutions to problems posed by life without your loved one. You will start to work on practical and financial problems and reconstructing yourself and your life without him or her.
ACCEPTANCE & HOPE-
During this, the last of the seven stages in this grief model, you learn to accept and deal with the reality of your situation. Acceptance does not necessarily mean instant happiness. Given the pain and turmoil you have experienced, you can never return to the carefree, untroubled YOU that existed before this tragedy. But you will find a way forward.
You will start to look forward and actually plan things for the future. Eventually, you will be able to think about your lost loved one without pain; sadness, yes, but the wrenching pain will be gone. You will once again anticipate some good times to come, and yes, even find joy again in the experience of living.
Denial — As the reality of loss is hard to face, one of the first reactions to follow the loss is Denial. The person is trying to shut out the reality or magnitude of his/her situation, and begins to develop a false, preferable reality.
Anger — Once in the second stage, the individual recognizes that denial cannot continue. Because of anger, the person is very difficult to care for due to misplaced feelings of rage and envy. The person in question can be angry with himself, or with others, or at a higher power, and especially those who are close to them. Certain psychological responses of a person undergoing this phase would be: "Why me? It's not fair!"; "How can this happen to me?"; '"Who is to blame?"; "Why would God let this happen?"
Bargaining — The third stage involves the hope that the individual can somehow undo or avoid a cause of grief. Usually, the negotiation for an extended life is made with a higher power in exchange for a reformed lifestyle. Other times, they will use anything valuable as a bargaining chip against another human agency to extend or prolong the life they live. In essence, the individual cannot totally move into acceptance yet acknowledges the fact that what has happened cannot be undone. People facing less serious trauma can bargain or seek to negotiate a compromise. For example, one may say "Can we still be friends?" when facing a break-up. Bargaining rarely provides a sustainable solution, especially if it is a matter of life or death.
Depression — "I'm so sad, why bother with anything?"; "I'm going to die soon so what's the point?"; "I miss my loved one, why go on?"
During the fourth stage, the grieving person begins to understand the certainty of death. Much like the existential concept of The Void, the idea of living becomes pointless. Things begin to lose meaning to the griever. Because of this, the individual may become silent, refuse visitors and spend much of the time crying and sullen. This process allows the grieving person to disconnect from things of love and affection, possibly in an attempt to avoid further trauma. Depression could be referred to as the dress rehearsal for the 'aftermath'. It is a kind of acceptance with emotional attachment. It is natural to feel sadness, regret, fear, and uncertainty when going through this stage. Feeling those emotions shows that the person has begun to accept the situation. Oftentimes, this is the ideal path to take, to find closure and make their ways to the fifth step, Acceptance.
Acceptance — "It's going to be okay."; "I can't fight it, I may as well prepare for it."
In this last stage, individuals begin to come to terms with their mortality or inevitable future, or that of a loved one, or other tragic event. This stage varies according to the person's situation. People dying can enter this stage a long time before the people they leave behind, who must pass through their own individual stages of dealing with the grief.
This happened again and again at different times in my life and began to see a pattern that I recognized in other place too. Each time I went through it...it became easier, less painful and a shorter time to process. Later I also had one glimpse of why it was familiar originally....I had done it before and never realized it but in a bigger more global way...(the forest from the trees) this pattern was a re-occuring pattern or cycle that appeared through out my childhood experience. I could see each stage in my past and when I was in it.....this was over a number of years. And even within the overall cycle....there were smaller cycles of the same exact pattern. It wasn't unitl I was in therapy and slowly coming out of denial that I recognized it again. Each emotional issue I was attacking and working went through this exact process ( the 7 stages). I could see it everywhere now! It was a universal archetypical pattern within that defined the process of how are brains and psche deals with complex emotions and feelings at the subconscious level....thinking "this woman was a genius!" Kubler-Rosses model was the frame work or blue print to how our brains function in this way. So cool!
But now going back to myself and applying this...I could see as a child...it took years to get through only one cycle or all 7 stages simply because I hadn't developed the ability to do it in shorter period of time ( although I had found ways to get through some stages better or faster than others) And there were some stages that I really struggled with....and a couple I found that I kind of stuck in or never really made it through at all.
When I compared these stages to the places in my life that I had the most trouble in......what do you know? These were my problem areas the ones I never made it fully through to completion.
OMG THAT'S IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now going back to the things I just said about Narcissism...true self....false/ideal self ....and the ability to process complex emotions and feelings.....Thank you ladies and gentlemen, we have a perfect fit! Vuo la...abbra ca dabra!
The inability to process painful emotions is directly tied to this internal process. People get stuck during the process...in the moment when it is called on to do so and where ever you are in the stages is as far as you get emotionally.
As a child...I only could get so far emotionally at any given period of time in the stages. This is normal child development. And at any given stage...there are stages in the process that are missing or incomplete....the ones where childeren fail to accomplish well or at all...are the difficult ones. The conflicted complex ones that require a fully integrated person ( you'd hope) to help them through and we all understand this without question. This is what role models and care givers do. They help children learn how to accomplish these stages of emotional processing by repetition and example. A normal child has all the faculties and potential capacity to do this and on average....we all do this at approximately the same rate until we reach a certain age when we get "cut free"...to go out on our own and do this everyday...to integrate with each other....socialize....work.....play....get married and have children and then teach them the same things.....teach them how to process these 7 stages of complex emotions to be a fully integrated functioning human being. In the ideal world.....a person should be able to do this spontaneously without even thinking about...and we do however......not perfectly! Also not always in the moment when we really need to.....sometimes there are time delays!
And those time delays go right back to the stages in the process where there's a malfunction....it's where the process gets stuck or stops ( like a child )....or gets delayed or slowed down. Like a computer with to big a processor with not enough ram.....you need ram to process information and the 7 stages are where this is needed.
So in my model.....the super ego that is the feedback between the subconscious (ID) self...and the (ego) conscious self get disconnected (stops) at a certain point in each one of these stages in the extreme covet sense of Narcissism.......
Or...... malfunctioning and consistently failing to completely make it through the stages or makes it through by "faking it until you make it" for the Compensatory Narcissists as a pattern or pathology ....which is exactly what they look like. Faking it but doing a really poor job at it. " Fuck UP" would be another term...kind of pseudo confident..sort of inept, nerdy, awkward, with a kind of obvious inability to really get anything right but just squeaks by despite themselves. Still managing to function OK sometimes.... to just barely at others.
So what I am proposing here for your consideration is this.....a normal child is Narcissistic because he/she hasn't had time to develop the ability (hard wire) into their brains to be able to process emotions fully or completely ( getting through or partially through the 7 stages) in order to become fully integrated yet.
I'm saying that they "APPEAR" as Narcissistic in behavior and emotionally as viewed from the outside and for all intensive purposes are Narcissistic for this reason. This is normal and appropriate and we don't use Narcissism or Narcissistic to describe them since.....we reserve this definition to have a different meaning therefore...by definition it doesn't apply as we understand it's common meaning.
A Narcissist or having NPD in the extreme sense...is someone who has an inability to process (7 stages)..or malfunction in this process....to make it through or gets stuck in one, two, three, or more of these 7 stages....... spontaneously in the moment or otherwise ( my example of these stages in all things as a universal pattern: stages of human development, times of stress and duress ( grief)........ in a seemless manner without having to think about (automatically) as a response or reaction to other people or their environment.....on a sub conscious level.
Newtons law..of Motion. for every action there is a an equal and opposite reaction
Causal misinterpretation
The terms 'action' and 'reaction' have the unfortunate suggestion of causality, as if the 'action' is the cause and 'reaction' is the effect. It is therefore easy to think of the second force as being there because of the first, and even happening some time after the first. This is incorrect; the forces are perfectly simultaneous, and are there for the same reason.
When the forces are caused by a person's volition (e.g. a soccer player kicks a ball), this volitional cause often leads to an asymmetric interpretation, where the force by the player on the ball is considered the 'action' and the force by the ball on the player, the 'reaction'. But physically, the situation is symmetric. The forces on ball and player are both explained by their nearness, which results in a pair of contact forces (ultimately due to electric repulsion). That this nearness is caused by a decision of the player has no bearing on the physical analysis. As far as the physics is concerned, the labels 'action' and 'reaction' can be flipped.
'Equal and opposite'
One problem frequently observed by physics educators is that students tend to apply Newton's Third Law to pairs of 'equal and opposite' forces acting on the same object.[2][3] This is incorrect; the Third Law refers to forces on two different objects. For example, a book lying on a table is subject to a downward gravitational force (exerted by the earth) and to an upward normal force by the table. Since the book is not accelerating, these forces must be exactly balanced, according to Newton's First or Second law. They are therefore 'equal and opposite'. However, these forces are not always equally strong; they will be different if the book is pushed down by a third force, or if the table is slanted, or if the table-and-book system is in an accelerating elevator. The case of three or more forces is covered by considering sum of all forces.
A possible cause of this problem is that the Third Law is often stated in an abbreviated form: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, without the details, namely that these forces act on two different objects. Moreover, there is a causal connection between the weight of something and the normal force: if an object had no weight, it would not experience support force from the table, and the weight dictates how strong the support force will be. This causal relationship is not due to the Third Law but to other physical relations in the system.
This helps explain my list in part when you also apply the 7 stages in processing to get a predicted outcome in behavior based on all other factors as is described here for causal misinterpretation.....patterns, contradictions, consistencies, relevance to time and space( chronologic stages of development and environment) to explain behavior. In my list I was trying to only isolate one consistency in predicting Narcissism = being contrary or contradictory. Black, white, good, bad, yes, no, positive, negative
This the last link in the chain of causality. A person or child who appears selfish, self absorbed and not caring is not necessarily a Narcissist yet the tendency for someone looking up a list of definitions or descriptions in a book or on the internet is to make a check list and say a=b b=c then therefore a and c are equal. This excerpt just explained this better than I ever could thanks to Newton. They say he probably had ADHD....ha ha
And what you have consistently missing ( in opposition of ) is the ability to have empathy which is one of the higher level complex ( integrated) emotions that people are not born with as a child but learn to develop over time.....is Narcissism in an adult.
The other way to describe this could be as a betrayal ( going contrary) to ones self.
more later......
I do not intend to argue
Submitted by at_the_crossroa... on
I do not intend to argue about it. But in my perception, children are selfish and selfcentered but not mature enough to be narcissistic.
I agree
Submitted by kellyj on
we are all this way to start with. We also have some kind of care giver (normally) to help us control and maintain our inhibitions and misbehaviors.
Just Remembered Something...following my last post to you
Submitted by kellyj on
Super ego...fruedian model....childeren are all narcissistic because of an under developed or immature super ego. That's what I'm calling the feedback loop......I'll come back and talk some more to finish later
Also.....I really appreciate any input to the things I'm saying and I won't argue anything here on my side. These are all just my own conclusions to that helps me makes any sense of this topic as it has frustrated me to no end for obvious reasons....it has helped me put some of this stuff ( and my past) finally to rest and move forward. Just saying:)
J
Now Me
Submitted by kellyj on
Here's where I make a stab at your original question Can Narcissism Cause Co-Morbid ADHD? My answer...
I don't know. I don't know if the side effects of having ADHD like in my case...Narcissist dismissing, critical,punitive parenting can do this??
There are some theories that copying or mimicking a parent who is this way will in turn...cause the child to be this way too. In my case I'm claiming this didn't happen with me. My copying or mimicking was for one reason and that was to fit in with other boys especially in competitive sports. It was also ingrained in society at the time. That's different than the more unaware Compensatory version. I could choose to be this way or not. As a teenage boy...this worked and didn't work and when it back fired I knew it. I felt ashamed and embarrassed at the time which meant things were still working .
From everything I have come to learn and know about these issues...there are a lot of theories and speculations and it just isn't clear yet. It does appear however....severity and the length of time a child of some age....expereinces one or more of the suspected causes and never has the chance to grow or remove themselves from the cause long enough to break free of the pattern until it takes hold and gets hard wired.
From everything I've learned about ADHD...it's hard wired from the get go. NPD gets hard wired after the fact. I'm sure there is a relationship but I think it's more of an overlap than it is a linear one but as I was saying with all of this....there are too many things to consider.
I had a college professor once say." there will be a time when you will have to make an assessment and judge yourself one day. It a requirement in order to succeed and if you cannot do this then you will probably fail."
I believe this now if I didn't before. A Narcissist cannot judge themselves so no matter how successful they are at doing something....they will never succeed at being a human being.
I've had to judge myself more times than I would have cared to but.....I've done it....not always but I have. My conclusion....I'm doing OK. If I go back to the 7 stages I was talking about...the last one of acceptance says almost exactly the same thing. My answer to this is.....right now it looks like I made it too the last stage and I'm feels OK.
What I wanted to say about this Narcissism thing that people ( including me in my past) don't appear to understand is this. Every one is a Narcissist. Being diagnosed as having a problem with Narcissism or a malfunctioning in there ability to process complex painful emotions is different. They live at the other end of the scale but it's the same one we're on too....we just live further down from them ( hopefully).
If you didn't have this side to you you are not alive and breathing. It's part of the balance that needs to be in existence in order for us to have emotions. There can be no concept of good if there is no bad to compare to. Your brain has to weigh each option it's given against these two choices and come up with some kind of compromise between the two in an instant,'
Narcissism in my view happens when these internal weighing abilities get thrown off specifically.....taking the bad ones out and tipping the scale so there are only emotions without pain involved...and the resulting "unihibited" or "untempered" child like behaviors and thinking are a result in each case. It's a form of regression without having ever gone forward.....even if that person believes they have ( the false self thinking here) And that;s what you see.
Instead of having a genuine fully processed emotion to work from.....emotions come in the form of a replacement or alternative. Instead of empathy and compassion they get replaced sympathy. I know this one because that's what I saw associated with love...feeling sorry. Negative emotions do not feel like Love. I needed to learn this because this was not an example I had to learn from. At times...these things became very confusing???
A victim needs sympathy and if you've got that for yourself...that's what you've got to give.
Narcissism is all about what's missing. The unmet needs that it still needs.
If things are needs then they become a requirement and are demanded as absolutely necessary for survival. Things it feels entitled to have in a self righteous way. "I need this so therefore I must have it or I won't be OK" " I need this at all costs or I won't be OK" " I don't need to say I am sorry because I needed this to be OK." I don't appreciate something I need because it's essential to my survival.""I expect to have this because I need it to be OK" "I demand you give this to me because I have to have it since I need it or I won';t be OK."
Needing things makes you needy. It makes you fearful in case you won't get it.
If you change need to want...then within that this says there is a possibility that I may not get it and you will be OK anyway even if you don't. Wanting something motivates you to go get it for yourself. Once you get something you want...your appreciative and feel satisfied.
Narcissism is part of being needy.
Insecurity is part of Narcissism in the fear you won't get what you need.
These things we all experience and when we do we behave like Narcissist whether we realize this or not. Pathological narcissism is just someone who acts like this all the time.
Frank Zappa said "(girls) you can be an asshole too.....don't pretend you don't got one on the bottom of you." :) this applies to everyone just in case. lol
J
Identification
Submitted by katetd on
JJameisson I Identify with everything you have written here..including the crazy, brilliant, creative hyperfocused ADHD way of thinking and describing it all - LOL!! I'll write more soon ...my keyboard still playing up...I just wrote a much longer response and lost it all! Ugh! I have some thoughts about the actual process of "recovery" from all this that I think are really important to share...
"crazy, brilliant, creative hyperfocused ADHD way of thinking"
Submitted by kellyj on
LOL...it's what I do best! LOL Takes one to know one. lol I'll look for your comments. Thanks kated.
Narcissism In Women
Submitted by kellyj on
I thought it would be utilitarian to include my thoughts here after I made my conclusion with my quote from Mr Zappa.....it was an incomplete train of thought or a partial one in context to the fact that (as I said in my introduction to this) that I see my audience here as being mostly women. But as I said to Standing in my reply to her that I also feel strongly that anyone might read this in the future and that anyone...could have been myself at a time when it would have helped me understand the very things I've writing about in my past.
Side Note: And yes...this speaks a lot to me saying I was done and then coming back to finish a second time. This is a great example of the time delay in processing that I was referring too......it's that " I wish I'd thought of that at the time when I said something I regretted or was important to say in the moment to be clear when communicating." For me it feels more like simply forgetting most of the time...but sometimes it's a thought that gets stuck in the loop for a while and then gets pooped out later....both are true by themselves and at the same time together...the brain has lots of twisties and sweepers ( motorcycle jargon for curves) with lots of intersections to manage at times!! lol
From that assumption...I feel I have a responsibility to my own purpose for writing all of this. This is kind of a long winded way of prefacing what's coming next which contains some opinions that might not be shared by most of those who read this.....I feel like a kid who is just about to throw a rock at a hornets nest and getting ready to run!! ha ha
I want to speak freely but at the same time not hold any punch's because I feel I've made some insightful observations in the differences between men and women in reference to Narcissism ( and from my experience with my egf which was a valuable learning one in some positive ways too) I already know from making these insights known to people at times that not everyone will agree them but as I said.....I think they have utilitarian value none the less.
Again....these are my own insights and not ones I've read about or heard about from anyone else....at the very least there is entertainment value here if you can see it from a decidedly male perspective........
Not having children was not something that I ever planned or not wanted to have early in my life....but for many different reasons it just didn't work out that way. I love kids and always have. I am a big kid at times and I think it is healthy not to lose that ability in moderation....it can make you "playful" and I am that. I use to coach sport teams, teach swimming lessons, life guard and run a community center when I worked my ways through college and I found that I love kids and they love me....it was a great job back then....but I also never had the burning desire that I see in some to have children that I think for most is natural....I think I had less than this than some men I know but I'm certainly not out of the norm to say that I see women having a much stronger drive than men for some obvious and reasons that shouldn't be confusing. I think religious conviction and beliefs have a lot to do with this but I'm referring to biological internal drives here to be clear.
Why this relevant to this thinking here....from my own experience when trying to explain a phenomenon I'm calling "parent psychosis" or better....a fixation or preoccupation of parents (usually mothers) in their child which seems to dominate their universal thinking to the point of distraction and irrational behavior. lo Putting this in a much more reasonable way....a parent who is being a responsible and caring child provider should have an appropriate concern for their Childs well being and therefor needs to put their child's in front of there own in most cases but certainly not all.
This is really easy to see from a distance when you don't have children of your own....to the point that many times...comments get made back to you (a non parent) that "you just wouldn't understand." For me....I understand one aspect clearly having been responsible for hundreds of unruly kids at the same time in a recreational environment without any institutional structure in place to contain their behavior.
Putting this another way........kids can get completely Fucking out of control when their parents aren't around especially during the summer months and their not in school. I had no problem with this. I was a kid...and I was completely Fucking out of control under the same conditions and I knew exactly how to handle them....no problem. I did this by relating to them on their own terms but doing it better than they did which also meant not calling parents every time they would act out or misbehave by dealing with them myself. It worked out in this case perfectly but then again....I wasn't their parents.
But yet, I do understand and further....have been around all my nieces,nephews and any other kid who's in my extended family to watch their interactions with the adults who are around and witness the differences....not in the kids but in the adults and to more specific....the mothers.
From my point of view...the bizarre and sometimes irrational differences in behaviors I've seen in mother's is both fascinating and bewildering at the same time but I do realize that there is a part of this I recognize as a feature of motherhood that is a common but obviously different for each person. This also appears commonly different to fathers for the same reason. And part of my "parental psychosis " theory does come from the fact that I don't have children of my own.
All of this is to make the point that I have had an interesting perspective on mothers and motherhood. I now believe this simply observation (for me) is also a clear one as a means to spot Narcissistic women in either one of two ways: extreme preoccupied mothering or those women who say they never wanted to have children saying....this is not a determining factor but the first step in the process.
People don't have children for many reasons like myself....and in my case it was not wanting to have or liking children. In my case I missed my opportunity more than any other reason and made a conscious decision after a certain age not to have any. I think this is a possible first consideration. The second being that motherhood appears to be a stronger internal drive in women prior to having them and I think this is not unusual. I've seen this in most of my male friends yet after having them, witnessing the signs of "parental psychosis" emerge in them after the fact. I'm being somewhat facetious here but to the point I'm trying to make...within my terminology is a fair amount of truth. This can be an indicator for Narcissism in both sexes but the determining factor has to be looked at more closely.
The suspect group in all of this is are the ones's who say I never wanted any......this requires further examination in itself as I don't necessarily call this a red flag....maybe a yellow flag would be a better one and I see this differently for a man where I wouldn't raise the yellow flag as quickly.
This is a purely anecdotal conclusion to my observation..... but I've attached it to the fact that the verified Narcissistic woman I've encountered say this very thing as the reason for not having any compared to my own reasons as I stated above. At the very least it's suspect for concern.
On the flip side is the "stage mom" or preoccupied type which appear to be consumed in their own self interest and not of their children....or the noticeably indifferent type that I have encountered which aren't that hard to notice either.
Case in point: when I was working at the community center pool as swim coach....early in the morning before I had to teach swimming lessons I was in the pump room doing regular maintenance adjacent to the pool. This was prior to anything being open and there was no one in sight anywhere. While I was inside with the pumps running and making noise I barely heard the sound of something splashing in the water...actually, just one large sounding splash. I almost ignored it thinking it was just my imagination but I thought I'd better check. I saw the ripples in the still pool water as if something had gone in but at first didn't see anything...as I looked down at the bottom from a distance...I saw a dark shape that I knew was a person and quickly ran across the deck area and dove in and grabbed something arm and yanked it up to the surface. I was holding the arm of a little girl ( about 4 or 5 years old) up out of the water and was looking directly into her face with eyes as wide as half dollars ( the look of terror!) and then quickly got us both out of the pool and dried her off and to make sure she was alright She was all alone and had come down to take her swim lessons and proceeded to open the gate and took the initiative to jump in by herself........ there was no parent in sight. She was OK and ended up staying to finish her lesson ( a real trooper) which she obviously loved to do anyway. Later her mother came down when she was found up a the tennis courts playing a round with her girlfriends. When I approached this woman, she said she was sorry for leaving her daughter there alone but it was because she had an early tennis appointment and was in a hurry. That was her excuse and I believed her...it was clearly obvious that this was much more important to her which only became more obvious when the mother looked at her daughter and asked " are you OK?" The daughter nodded without saying anything. The mother without missing a beat said "good"..patted her on the head and immediately went back ( rather hurried ) to resume her tennis playing ( dressed in a very well put together tennis outfit I might add) as I watched her disappear after this 2 minute exchange as if nothing unusual had even happened.
I almost threw a deck chair at her head as she walked away but I knew that wouldn't' have registered either. ha ha
The point to make here is not as defense for men or a criticism of woman.....it's saying that Narcissist women are different than men in their behavior and further....this behavior sometimes can get cloaked within the role of motherhood and is not as easy to see sometimes unless you can stand back from it as I have had the opportunity to have.
I thought this was worth mentioning here to conclude this train of thought. Narcissism is not exclusive to gender and it looks different because of this in women. It is just as easy to mask based on a woman's stereotype the same as it is for men.....and for the same reasons needs to be observed for a while to spot the consistent pattern even if it is less obvious than my example but also reiterating....that it's sometimes even more obvious in women because of this motherhood role feature if you take a closer look at it. Just saying;)
J
CHILDFREE
Submitted by at_the_crossroa... on
I am a childfree woman. When carefully considering the difference between having a child or not having one, I cannot think of even one single benefit, but I can make a long list of sacrifices, which I rationally feel no obligation to nobody to make.
Not having any inclinations towards breeding does not make a woman selfish or narcissistic. It is only a wise way of self-protection.
I consider the fact, that the survival of the species depends on women's suffering an unjust and cruel form of biological abuse of women.
When a woman is brainwashed by social norms into breeding, while she does not want to do so but finds this out too late, then I find her extremely admirable, when day after day does all the slavery work for the selfish brat and does it well enough to meet expectations. She complies with her obligations. Demanding above all this that she wishes the burden to survive peril, that is asking too much.
Inabilty to Take Responsiblity Cross Roads.....
Submitted by kellyj on
I totally agree.......Having children should never be an obligation or someone else's choice.
To be more specific in reference to my post and my thinking to be clear.....Narcissism as I see it ( as a pathology) exists as an outlier on the scale (either end as I am suggesting) along with a number of other features or characteristics that could be considered less frequent than the norm....or outliers. The further from center you move to either end......the less populated the number become. At the extreme ends where character disordered Narcissism lives...this list gets narrowed down to a smaller number core features for predictors. Based on my own observation and experience ( with confirmed Narc women I've know) not wanting children appears as only one of the list of these predictors at the one end and cannot be isolated by itself as a predictor as you are saying.
As I am referring to this.....it's not a biological decision but more of one with a problem with taking responsibility
The inability in taking personal responsibility IS a core feature of Narcissism absolutely. I'm saying that I strongly believe that these two things are tied and therefore not wanting children should be included as a consideration to take a closer first look as being "suspect" only without saying a woman is selfish or a Narcissist.
On the other end of the scale is the woman in my case in point who.......if I'd of had the frame of mind I have today... I would have been brought her up on charges for criminal negligence and endangering the life of a minor child and had her daughter put into protective services (it was within my power to make these accusations at the time I have to live with my own regret from not doing so to this day).....I will never forget the terror in that little girls eyes or the look she had as her mother walked away from her to return to play tennis with her girlfriends. It breaks my heart even thinking about it.
You might be surprised to hear that a common inference I've heard that makes it quite clear from only women ( NEVER men) that a mans decision not to want children is due to immaturity. I've had this said directly to me in person speaking about men and to me to my face.
This is the exact (male) version of what you are talking about.....women- selfish ( or Narcissistic ) men-immature
It's the exact same thing and neither one are true aside from possibly a very few.
Sturgeon's Law states: Nothing is always absolutely so....therefore......90% of everything is crap.
I rest my case.
J
Jumping into a pool.....
Submitted by at_the_crossroa... on
I perceive you as unjust to that mother. Of course I am interpreting, what you have told, so things could be very different. But I can understand her side.
Nobody has a right to blame her for not loving a kid, should this be the case, as long as she raises her without abuse and neglect. From what you have told, I cannot see anything wrong in what the mother has done. She has not thrown the kid into the pool nor has she brought her into any dangerous situation. She has even cared to enable the girl the chance to learn to swim. This is far from neglect.
She probably expected that an accessible pool is watched over. She has probably considered a kid of 5 to be wise enough not to jump into any water too deep to stand in. Only very young children fall accidentally into pools. Jumping into deep water while knowing that swimming has yet to be learned makes me wonder, what may be wrong with the kid. A kid of 5 should know, that she risks to drown.
Would I be only told, that a kid of 5, who cannot swim, jumps into deep water, I would suspect, that the kid is mentally retarded.
If anything would break my heart, it is the troubled life of a mother burdened with a child, who jumps into pools.
Wow..Somethings Really Missing Here
Submitted by kellyj on
At least where I'm from.......5 year old pre-school children aren't required to walk 1/4 mile down a commercial road by themselves to any event alone....and then are required to find their mothers another 1/4 mile in the other direction when they are done. This is completely ASS backwards and criminal!!
You also missed the point I was making in that this horrible human being spent more time getting fixed up ( put together) to make a showing for her friends and not take the extra 5 minutes she needed to possibly prevent her daughter from dying. If I hadn't second guessed myself to take that second look as I almost did ( not expecting anyone to there since.....no one is allowed on the pool deck without a lifeguard present which is CLEARLY stated on the sign on the gate to enter and a known rule of any public pool anywhere which nearly everyone knows any way unless you don't swim)
That is unless you can't FUCKING READ!!!! I don't know a single 4 to 5 year old (in my lifetime of experience) who can do this or has the presence of mind to understand the hazards)
she would be dead right now instead of living her life right now as I'm writing this.
Really??? A kid of 5 should be able to read, access danger, fend off sketchy miscreants in a public park and then walk another 1/4 mile through a public parking lot (being only 3' 5" shorter than most cars are tall) negotiating cars backing up and then finding her mother in a tennis complex of dozens of courts by first finding the lobby and being admitted?
I doubt very much she had her own recreation pass in her name???
And what your saying is that a 5 year old is also supposed to understand the depth gradient in a pool to precisely know where it is too deep for her since all she knows is the shallow end in her entire experience and is supposed to know where that begins and ends?? That it's not logical for a 5 year old to make the wrong assumption that the entire pool is the same depth since that's all she knows??
I can tell you know nothing about kids or swimming pools. All young children when they first are learning are way over eager to get back in once they experience it for the first time...and they all want to jump off the deck like she did.....which is also CLEARLY stated on another huge sign posted literally above this little girls head...again If you can't FUCKING READ then this is a problem!!
And you're saying this girl must be retarded??? Who learned you???
In all the time I've been on this forum....I've read some pretty ugly posts and statements made that have cause me to cringe at times but lady....you take the cake!! I've never been brought to the point of the anger and disgust I am feeling right now for the utter lack of feeling and humanity your showing in regard to a 5 year old almost drowning and defending a woman who is the quintessential example of a wretched self absorbed human being showing a callous indifference to this fact that this was her own flesh and blood......
And to further make the point that this shining example of a horribly self absorbed human being was more interested in her make up, hair and whether her top matched her skirt to go play tennis of all things which she could have easily done in a pair of sweats and T-shirt instead ...and take the extra five minutes to escort her own daughter to the pool instead of making her girlfriends wait that long for her to do this.
What's wrong with this scenario? And what's wrong with you in siding with this horrible wretch of a woman.
I'm done. thank you for responding.
J
Yes and this is so important.
Submitted by Manda1516 on
I just ended a close to 3 year relationship with someone. I gave everything I had to him period I suffered through two years of extreme behaviors lying cheating you name it period I kept hearing it's because he has ADHD it's because of the ADHD it's because we need new medicine it's because I forgot my medicine excuse after excuse. I tried multiple counselors both with and without him including the books and counseling directly through Melissa. I think that this information is true for helping people in situations where someone has just ADHD. The problem I truly believe is that it is been proven and if you do enough research and talk to the right therapist, people who have severe psychological and Psychopathic disorders like narcissism, also almost always have other conditions. As discussed in this topic there what is referred to as comorbid. You are right on the money from actual research that I've been doing and with Specialists to recover myself from the abusive relationship I just was in. A lot of people assume as I've seen comments written here as well that kids with ADHD are not treated fairly and are judged excetera. But there's another line of that period as in the situation with my ex, his mother is an extreme enabler and in not understanding and I think feeling guilty for how many issues he had and refused to overcome, she coddled and excused Behavior. I actually heard her say at 34 years old regarding something terrible he did quote but he's so cute quote. So for the comments of people saying that there's no way and that they know how children with ADHD retreated excetera that's only one part of it. There's so many variations of people in general and how they were raised that is impossible to understand. But the truth and the day that is that almost all people with ADHD have another disorder. Some of them are small or similar like mild traits of Asperger's or the OPD but in a lot of cases as your comments say narcissism and other very dangerous and severe psychological issues occur. And I think that it is important therapists and people in these relationships become educated so that you can help yourself and that person and avoid abuse like what I have just went through period and again I am not saying that this is every single person with a adD just like I'm saying that every person with it is not impossible to have a disorder like these
If it is narcissistic abuse then that is what it is, ADD.
Submitted by JoHe on
My ex introduced herself to me as an ADD person, I felt for her. I accepted her as she was. Soon her manipulative, selfish, egoistic and lazy sides showed up which i accepted reluctantly as she would also cry a lot. I wasn't sure how to handle it as it was something completely new for me. I started studying more about ADD and kind of got stuck with her. Almost all the articles would encourage me to either leave or be more loving and understanding person. Unfortunately I chose the second option without realizing what i am getting into.
Fast forward to couple of months, i was serving her day and night but nothing was good enough for her.
To make story short, now i am seeing regularly a therapist ..
She did have asperger traits too...
Blaming me, accusing me for everything what she was responsible was the only way for her to deal with the guilt how badly she was treating me and destroying the relationship. She knew exactly what she was doing but she choose to do that again and again to satisfy her narcissistic side. She would always feel guilty later but in the moment she would feel so powerful while torturing me.
Only person who she was afraid of was her mom because she was the rear narcissist. Finally I contacted her mom to stop this animal contacting me again. I had to contact her mom couple of times before she realized that she finally succeeded in losing me.
I struggled so much with the thought of leaving a mentally disturbed person behind me but by now i almost lost my own mind with her mind sickening games. She was as much of a Covert Narcissist as anyone could be. She is a true psychopath who also happens to be diagnosed with ADD and Asperger Syndrome.