Hi gang - joined this forum today in hopes of getting some advice or at least a sympathetic ear. Melissa Orlov's "ADHD Effect On Marriage" book was an eye-opener for me when I read it last month. In the book, and on this forum, I see sentence after sentence that resonates deeply with me and my situation. To know that I'm not alone has helped me calm myself and think things over more carefully (I hope).
My story: Diagnosed with non-hyperactive ADHD in 2000 at the age of 18, met my wife 6 mths later, married in 2008. The post-college world put a squeeze on my ADHD and our relationship, to put it mildly. I had insisted vehemently that to-do lists and sheer force of will would box everything in. Got on medication in 2010 and saw a big difference in day-to-day life. However, beyond the day-to-day things, our lives have deteriorated, mostly I think due to ANGER and the way in which we both chose to handle it.
My own anger: put aside for a long time, in favor of keeping the peace in my marriage. In better times, it could maybe be diverted into self-improvement thoughts and lists. I have a dozen lists which range from kindergarten-cheerful to drill sergeant fury. In bad times, it would fuel a series of on/off binges: junk food, credit card charges, secret drinking, wasteful hobbies, frantic exercise. While my wife worked very long hours, I would try to focus hard on cleaning, cooking, organizing, and being supportive and attentive to her daily stresses. When a promise was made (clean the stovetop, listen to her work gripes without a random interruption, cook healthier recipes) it would eventually get broken. So we inched along to our current position, which is that "promises" and "revelations" are lies made up to keep her off my back.
My wife: I would like to grieve for all of the above, but I'm also saddened by how much my wife's anger has transformed us. And yet it seems to be a forbidden topic. I wish I knew how to step in and undo this cycle of anger, but I'm paralyzed when thinking of what the starting point could possibly be. Bullet points:
- In addition to dealing with me, she has a tough career with long hours and (at times) miniscule personal satisfaction. For many years, her boss would lob personal insults at her without a care, because she knew my wife would just buckle down and work harder for the good of the company.
- Once, the way ahead used to be that I try harder and cross my fingers that she wouldn't blow up. If I felt frustrated, angry, or tired, the answer was "man up", because not stoking her anger was top priority.
- Things are filtered through her lens a lot these days. Trying to point out a mistake = she's a moron. I suggest a thing that she said last week = her words mean nothing to me. Saying that we should postpone a conversation before it gets escalated = her feelings are so insignificant that I can't wait to run away. Tough day at work = she works so hard for zero return. Trying to read a book to understand more about ADHD = too lazy to talk to your spouse instead. Budget is tight this month = no matter how hard she tries we'll always be underwater. I write her a nice Christmas card = hers isn't written that well because she's dumb. Sitting in a nice restaurant, she'd joke that nearby people say, "who let those shlubby people come and eat here?" Leaving a friend's house, she'd joke that they thought, "boy, aren't we sorry we invited those two over for dinner again."
- Pointing out that she might be overly sensitive, or maybe should examine her own feelings, leads to crying and statements like: "if you think I'm such a loser, then just leave here right now."
- Won't entertain the idea of taking a break, cooling down, or agreeing to talk through an argument later. Instead I am running away, being a coward, trampling on her and her feelings. She would prefer that I "say something meaningful" right now, but won't discuss further because I "should just know".
- If I have an angry outburst on my part, pounding my fist on the table or shouting "stop it"... switches immediately to crying, statements about how she is all alone in this life, no one loves her. Threats of self-harm, just going away forever, suicide by car accident, etc.
- Since arguments inevitably escalate, her anger goes into strong and frightening places. In the last 3 years, I have had clothing ripped, CD's snapped in half, drywall cracked, childhood mementos cut apart, dinners dumped into the trash. Any apologies have been framed as: "you made me so mad that I had no choice, because I don't know how else to make you understand." The only canned response which works is for me to say, "yes, it was really me who broke that, because I made you do it."
- Since I cannot walk away, call for a break, ask to not have my belongings broken, or have an outburst, I sit still and try to react quietly and calmly. What I get told is that she "must mean nothing at all, if this is the most I can muster up out of you." Attempts to explain this flat reaction are "escalation" because I wind up saying too much.
- For fear of embarrassment, there is no one else she can talk to about any of this. She has few friends due to time and energy spent on her career, and has implied that she wouldn't expose such a harrowing secret to the friends she does have.
- In 2012-13, we attended couples counseling. She told me up front that this made her miserable because she would have to discuss very private problems in front of a stranger. Has said vehemently many times that counseling stuff is for "crazy people", not her.
- Has said lately that people with ADHD, OCD, autism, etc. are coddled because society invents these categories for weak people. Get your label, and everyone can bow and kowtow to you because you're so special. Society loves labels. Meanwhile, she never got her label and has had to work so hard for everything she has without any help from anyone. The people with labels get an excuse to slack off and maybe get some pills so they don't have to try as much as her.
- If the timing is wrong on a given day, larger issues get flown in within 30-60 seconds of the initial "sliding-door moment". I ruined Christmas last year. I ruined our spring vacation with an argument about packing bags. Don't I remember how I lost my concentration a few years ago and had that fender-bender. I made her go to therapy, which was more humiliating than anything else she'd ever done. This is just another broken promise, or ruined weekend, or screw-up etc.
Grieving, forgiving, and moving on from past hurts seems like it would be beneficial, but I don't know where to start. Discussing her feelings implies to her that it's all her fault, not mine. Suggesting that she take a certain course of action implies to her that her current feelings aren't valid. Suggesting that she read a book about anger, or talk to someone else about it, would be too embarassing—and only something that "crazy people" do anyway, not her.
Any thoughts about how to start up a talk with her which may start to move things in a positive direction? Thanks all.
I noticed that your wife's
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
I noticed that your wife's list of anger issues is much longer than yours. You mention that she works very long hours, but I didn't pick up on what you do with your time on a day to day basis. Could you be more specific about that? Do you work, have children that you care for, etc. I'm just trying to get a more clear picture of your day to day lives.
Has your wife always been angry? Did it happen overnight? Did it build gradually over time?
I noticed that your wife's
Submitted by JohnWilson on
I noticed that your wife's list of anger issues is much longer than yours.
Can't disagree with that of course. If my wife wrote down a list of my anger issues, I think "taking it out on my wife by making her suffer for so long" would be top of the list. My amateur self-diagnosis is that I've tamped down so much on my own anger that I don't know what's happening to it. It's off-limits for me to yell or slam my hand on the table during an argument, but it still happens from time to time. It may go hand-in-hand with ADHD distraction so that I passive-aggressively put off important things or life goals. If it's not bad habits like junk food, then there are occasional spurts of me trying something positive like going out for a jog. Otherwise, it's just floating around in there somewhere. (Orlov's book mentioned The Dance Of Anger, and I got a copy which I intend to read.)
Her anger was not overnight but built gradually over the years. Misinterpretation of symptoms and motives was probably the most "hurtful pattern" that started the snowball rolling as we moved from college into adulthood...
You mention that she works very long hours, but I didn't pick up on what you do with your time on a day to day basis. Could you be more specific about that? Do you work, have children that you care for, etc. I'm just trying to get a more clear picture of your day to day lives.
We both work full-time and have no kids. Generally speaking I leave work at a reasonable hour, so I take the lead on doing rote errands (dry cleaning, mailing packages, bank deposits, gas), cooking at home, and cleaning. There's no doubt that she appreciates all of that. I don't think you'd find Chore Wars on our Top 10 list of issues. The blow-ups happen when I fall short (didn't clean the bathroom completely, let the fresh produce go bad), or when she gets frustrated that there's too much on her own plate and not enough time for her own rest and restoration. She's right to feel that way of course, but there's only so much I can take off of her plate, and trying to discuss with her seems to lead to me being labeled patronizing or bossy. Compounding it all is her feeling that she's stuck in her career, good or bad, because she's married to someone who will never be a take-charge, bread-winner, high-salary kind of guy...
Good for you for wanting to
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
Good for you for wanting to help your wife and your marriage! I used to have a lot of anger and it was exacerbated by the fact that I didn't really understand what was causing it. Once I was able to narrow down the specific problems that were causing my anger, I was able to start facing it head on and making improvements. It sounds like your wife has kind of lost hope and doesn't want things to improve. I know how it is to get so bogged down in so many problems that you can't see the situation clearly. Maybe if you went through a thought process and tried to narrow down the source of her anger you can better help her overcome it. Something like this:
1) Do you think that her anger is caused 100% by your ADHD symptoms?
2) If so, are there certain things that set her off more than others?
3) Are there certain times of the day, week, month, year that her anger is worse?
4) Does she have any past traumas?
5) Has she been emotionally abused by someone in her past?
6) Has she been physically abused by someone in her past?
7) Are there medical conditions that are contributing to her stress?
8) Does she sleep well?
9) Does she take medications?
10) Does she eat well & exercise? Do you?
You get the idea. This might all sound strange, but it can all contribute to physical, mental, and emotional health and well being. You never know what you'll come up with if you really analyze the details of the situation instead of just looking at the big picture.
Since arguments inevitably escalate, her anger goes into strong
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
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Since arguments inevitably escalate, her anger goes into strong and frightening places. In the last 3 years, I have had clothing ripped, CD's snapped in half, drywall cracked, childhood mementos cut apart, dinners dumped into the trash. Any apologies have been framed as: "you made me so mad that I had no choice, because I don't know how else to make you understand." The only canned response which works is for me to say, "yes, it was really me who broke that, because I made you do it."
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This is a sign that your wife has a serious problem. This is what needs to be mentioned if you can get her to couples counseling
Sorry overwhelmedwife, but I
Submitted by JohnWilson on
Sorry overwhelmedwife, but I have a hard time seeing this happening. Our previous stint in counseling was focused mainly on me and my ADHD, with her contributing info on her frustrations (helpfully and objectively I have to say), and expressing her wish that we "get a divorce assessment" at the end of the therapy (which was met with a puzzled look from the therapist). Some positive info and concepts came out of this, but it doesn't count for much now. Instead I get reminded of how mortifying it was for her to see someone like that, cry in front of a stranger, throw money away, and have me ramble on about minutae and waste everyone's time.
Reading books like Melissa's, taking stock of what I see, and being the "therapist" for both of us seems to be the way ahead now, awkward though it may be. Trying to make and stick to a schedule on this has been hard, since sadness, resignation, chores, and distraction are always lurking. Being the therapist, client, and spouse at the same time... if any tips exist on such a thing, I'd welcome them...
Dissososiation?
Submitted by kellyj on
Hi John,
I recently realized something about myself that might help if it's the same things that happens with you? This came up in a therapy session about learning to fight fair and what I should do when confronted with my wife who who does two different things when she gets angry. First she will get very passive aggressive and then she will escalate to being very confrontation and inflammatory which appears like she is begging for a fight. The more I resist and try not to engage...the harder she will push. Once I snap and begin to fight back...she will retreat and say she doesn't want to talk to me and refuses to say anything after a certain point. If I pursue her at all or try and continue to be reasonable or just plain angry...(mostly at this point from being cut off or walked out on)...she will really lose it...accuse me of all kinds of things that aren't happening which usually takes the victim stance and saying I am the perpetrator even if it started out with me doing nothing and her being the aggressor initially.
This is where it ends up if I do anything but sit and take it which is a very difficult thing for me to do. But there is a component to all of this that is very different between the two of us that was indirectly mentioned by my therapist.
My wife's default is "fight".....my default is "flight" ( or freeze). Right off the bat .....this is how it starts. But my T's advise or insight was this...he reminded me that everything I see in my wife is a form of defense no matter what it looks like or how it comes out. It's a defense against some kind of threat whether it be imagined or real. His direct advise for me in my case was not to engage and allow it let it pass which will stop her from escalating. As I said....this is very hard to do sometimes and not say anything.
What didn't occur to me until later was in the heat of the moment...as the aggressor, initiator (or fight response person)...my wife clearly is stating exactly why she is angry. This is what she is baiting me or trying to bring this level up to do. She trying to get my attention in a way that I cannot ignore or look away from in no uncertain terms even if she is doing it the wrong way or trying to manipulate me into a confrontation. But it's still a defense against something even if she is the aggressor? Best defense is a good offense right?
It also occurred to me when this happens is that I never seem to get my two bits in and she needs the last word. Actually...the only word is really what she wants but.....I get plenty of word time in otherwise when we aren't fighting and have more of my fair share of floor time to the point that this can be a problem in itself.
So....why doesn't she know how I feel until it escalates and I finally snap and join her in these engagements together. I have a skill that I can draw on that she does not have and that is dissociation. Before you go too far into disorders or the like here....my ability to do this is more an incredible ability to "tune out" when things get too hairy. I could walk through the apocalypse and not have it affect me. This can be a wonderful tool to have in your back pocket and it's one that came from tuning out adversity when I was very little in our family. It's pretty much like pushing the "mute" button of the television and I can sit there quietly and easily while another person is raging and not have it bother me much.
But....this is my defense mechanism and part of the "flight" response. It happens on a dime and I am not even aware of it most of the time since...it's completely invisible to everyone including me. If something happens and I can no longer tune out or dissociate....I flip into 'fight" response if I feel like I am backed into a corner with no way out. This is all my wife sees or hears even though I have been in defense mode for quite some time before that happens.
And when it does.....it's not the best time to be talking about how I feel or to get her to see anything outside of herself because now she's changes into flight mode against my fight mode as soon I do this.
But....it still leaves me knowing exactly what is wrong with my wife in the moment and what she wants....and my wife not really knowing or understanding what is wrong with me or how I feel. Dissociation or "tuning out" is a defense against something too.....just like her anger is a defense against something? That's why it feels like she is always getting the last word because in this dynamic...it's true.
But that's not entirely her fault or of her doing because of this.
I found when I gave this some thought....I was able to figure out exactly what I was trying to defend against with her and was able to tell her and talk about it later when we weren't angry with a lot more success. Dissociation is invisible and no one can see it. Think in terms of a deer running into the woods and hiding camouflaged in some bushes? That's the point with flight animals.
It just some food for thought that applies to my wife and I that might help give you some clues without knowing any more about the two of you?
This was recently given to me as advise on how to change a bad pattern of communication that I definitely have. This was so useful for me to see this laid out so simply and easily...that I have only begun to practice this with a great deal of success already. You might find this useful as well. Sorry...I can't link this page so I needed to copy and paste it.
I was raised by fairly abusive people, especially my mother's second husband. I completely understand and empathize with your comments about being gaslighted, and how it affects your communication styles.
The problem with the compensating strategies we form to counter gaslighting is that when we use them on someone who is NOT abusive or gaslighting us, we come across as badgering, defensive, stubborn, lecturing and even down right verbally bludgeoning.
A trick to circumvent this problem is to check in with your communication partner. Instead of offering all the evidence and facts possible to show that your perspective is valid, ask them if they understand first.
So, instead of starting with "My opinion is X, because A, B, C, D and I can back those up by R, S, U and V."
Try "My opinion is X. Can you understand why I might feel this way?"
If they validate you, then great. If they can't quite see your point of view, then offer A and B and then check in again "Are you beginning to see my point of view?"
Also, allow people to have a different point of view, so long as they validate or acknowledge your perspective. "I see you point, can you see mine?"
Agreeing to disagree, respectfully, is vital for healthy relationships. It's important to not allow your own baggage to burden your relationship. Easier said than done, I know!
There's a couple of formulas to think of here.
J - Justify
A - Apologize
D - Defend
E - Explain
JADE is the result of unhealthy relationships and thought patterns. It's defensive. It's the result of desperately trying to get your point across to people who will find you at fault no matter what. It is what we do, even to people who love and care for us, when we haven't learned healthier communication styles. In a healthy relationships, Explain is usually all you need, if you haven't actually done anything wrong. So start there. Explain, check in. Then Justify, check in.
Here's another acronym for you, since I'm in the mood for typing.
MAAP. It's like a healthy version of JADE.
Mirror
Acknowledge
Apologize
Problem solve
Mirror - Repeat back what the person said in your own words. To make sure that you both understand each other. You may have to do this a few times, as you may see things through an abuse filter. "The dishes pilling up really stresses you out, and makes you feel like I don't care?"
Acknowledge - Validate their feelings and agree that this is a problem. "You're right, having a filthy kitchen isn't okay. I can see how this would cause you stress."
Apologize - Be sorry for what part you actually play. "I'm sorry that I just toss my dishes in the sink when I could wash them right away. I'm sorry that this makes you feel unloved, that is not my intent. I love you very much."
If it's not related to you, or you have no part in it, such as simply venting - like your spouse complaining about a bad day at work: "Wow babe, I'm sorry to hear that your co-worker was such a prick".
If you have done nothing wrong, and your communication partner agrees, say you're simply having a conversation about a point of view, not an error on your part, the skip this altogether. Or apologize for your part in the struggle to see each other's perspective.
Problem solve - Offer a solution, or ask for one. Work together to make things better. Compromise. "I promise to put more effort into cleaning up after myself. Can you work on understanding that this isn't something that I do to hurt you? Maybe just give me a gentle reminder if I backslide?" "What if we made a rule- I cook, you do dishes?" "How about we get ourselves a dishwasher for Xmas?"
MAAP is somewhat like SET
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
SET ~ Support, Empathy, Truth
Sometimes, the person is accusing you of something that isn't true. So, you can't really use MAAP because you shouldn't apologize for something that isn't true or correct.
When dealing with people with PD's, you'll often be accused of things that you didn't do, so SET can help with that.
Suppose your partner accuses you of cheating on them because you're late coming home from work. Use SET
Support: I understand that you feel badly when I'm late coming home from work.
Empathy: I understand that you get worried when I'm late and sometimes you're worried about why I'm late.
Truth: I was late because there was an accident on the interstate and the road was backed-up for 5 miles. Next time anything like that happens, I will try to call you and let you know so you won't worry.
Excellent Point
Submitted by kellyj on
IF.....the other person does not have a PD. If they do....in a compassionate way, they don't have the ability to respond the same as you do to MAAP and this doesn't work. It does require you to be even more empathetic or compassionate and use SET instead because they will Gaslight you every time you try to use MAAP and you will never get to the Problem Solving stage. At least in my experience....it feels like this is the goal for a person like this even if they don't realize it.
I think deep down.....they are afraid that if they allow it to go there....they will have to compromise and that is really what they are avoiding most of all.
It's really easy when confronted with this.....not to be very forgiving. Empathy and compassion go hand in hand and are a the first requirement before you can forgive I think. If you can't forgive....you can't use SET.
Easier said than done I know.
Thursday night update......
Submitted by JohnWilson on
Thursday night update...... but not a very good one at all.
Maybe this gives a clearer picture of a typical blow-up. Some grains of truth in there but the screaming takes over. Clearly she's hurt, feeling abandoned, and wants her feelings acknowledged above all - all valid, yes!
Guess I don't need a response if nobody has one. Just sad, venting a bit.
Sorry, but your wife is
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
Sorry, but your wife is seriously mentally unhealthy. You may have your own issues, but it sounds like she is far more seriously mentally ill than you are.
Go to a therapist by yourself. She may, at some point, insist on coming and that will be fine. But, you need to go. You need some professional insight.
The throwing things is such a red flag.
Shocked to hear those words,
Submitted by JohnWilson on
Shocked to hear those words, overwhelmedwife, even though it's easy to see what led you there. To think of my wife having an illness makes me feel a little nauseous right now. Isn't it less of a stretch to see that she's just stressed out, and needs loving support, help getting stuff done, and to have her feelings validated? The two of us do have good periods and know how to exchange meaningful appreciation and affection.
Thinking of John Gottman/negative sentiment override -- getting us to a place where she thinks, "This is the man who really loves, respects and cherishes me, so if he's being a bit scatterbrained tonight, no biggie." Instead, the vicious cycle has us pinned down now, so EVERYthing is a biggie.
edited This Is Not Normal
Submitted by kellyj on
sorry...I confused who had ADHD and who didn't for a moment until I reread your comments. I think you need to go get some help with this without your wife and see what a therapist has to say. I'm really sorry that this is happening. It can get really confusing to know which is which here. My take here from the ADHD side of things....her reactions and spontaneously combusting like she does is not your problem it's hers. Even if you did something that caused her to be angry.....her behavior here is the one that is unacceptable not yours. As hard as this is to do right now....try and separate anything you did from how she reacts. You can use the bread example as a way to do this. It's not normal for an adult to react to something that is just not that big a deal. That does appear to be a complete inability to maintain her composure? If you extend that to anything you've actually done....it's really easy to start believing that her out of scale reaction is due to your out of the norm behavior if it's ADHD related. She may have a legitimate reason to be frustrated or angry with you but.....not to have a tantrum and completely lose it like she is. No excuse for that. It sounds very child like from how you made this sound. That's not legitimate or normal on her end.
J
Yes, it is shocking....
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
Yes, it is shocking to even contemplate that your wife is mentally ill. It's something that many of us were/are in denial about because the acceptance is too overwhelming.
Hitting you and throwing things is not simply, "Oh, I was stressed." Sorry, but it's not. She's a grown up having a tantrum like a two year old. That suggests that her development in an important area is arrested at a very young age.
She needs to be evaluated.
the fact that she later apologizes and acknowledges some or many of the things she did was wrong does NOT mean that she's not seriously mentally unhealthy. Within 24hrs, my very mentally ill husband will be extremely sorry for the things that he has said or did, but it doesn't mean that he's not seriously mentally ill.
The difference is that when they are stressed, anxious, angry, upset, they are no longer thinking rationally. The impulsiveness, paranoia, and irrational behavior spikes. At that moment, they don't care what they break or what they say/do. At that moment, they don't care if they break or throw a valuable or sentimental item. They don't care if the item that they break or throw is meaningful for you. In fact, at that moment, when they throw/break something that you like/need/love, their goal is to hurt you. The "relief" that they get from throwing/breaking things is real, but the "relief" is only fleeting.
Later on, when the dysregulation subsides, they realize how bad their actions were, and they often apologize (altho sometimes they won't and still blame you for "causing" their actions.)
Abuse
Submitted by jenna-ADD on
"Isn't it less of a stretch to see that she's just stressed out, and needs loving support, help getting stuff done, and to have her feelings validated?"
Attempting to hit someone or even verbally abusing them is abuse, plain and simple. Take this from someone who got beat and berated on a regular basis from my mother, and then apparently didn't get enough and graduated to dating ppl who'd been locked up in anger management rehab. Sometimes when you're stepping in it daily, you lose sight and perspective that this is not normal.
I'm not qualified to tell you what her problem is, but I do recognize anger management issues and abuse when I see it. Unfortunately in my experience, people with anger management issues and abusive tendencies aren't receptive to acknowledging their problem, let alone agreeing to get help. (Although from reading these forums, some would say that applies to the ADHDer in their lives as well.)
Have you thought about a neutral place, like going away to a b&b for a weekend, no phones, away from reminders of past conflicts?
JJamieson I appreciate the
Submitted by JohnWilson on
JJamieson I appreciate the thoughtful and objective response for sure. (Side note though: certain statements, especially the first sentence, seem to imply you think she's the one with the ADHD? It's me who has it, not her.)
The heart of your message is perfect, though, and so true. Her emotions run away with her and cause, I guess, a kind of short-sighted panic period. The world really is coming to an end. It really is a runaway process happening in your head. John Gottman's books talk about taking a hard, instant break from an escalating fight with a 20-minute cool-down period: "people come back to the table sounding as though they've had a brain transplant." Her emotions are absolutely valid, real, and do not need to be justified. Any attempt for me to sweep them off the table would be out of line. It's hers and (my) actions and consequences that put us on the downward spiral, especially the unbelievable screaming rants that I never thought I would see out of someone like her.
If I wasn't 95% subordinate in this marriage, I could go there, but what she hears is: "You need to calm down. Give me a free pass from your yelling. Don't be a bitch. It's all your fault anyway." Similar attempts to say these things, no matter how I go at it with word choice, body language, eye contact etc — earn me one of three grades from her: "like hearing from a robot," "getting lectured like a toddler", or the all-time classic, "yelling at me."
Your last question: there absolutely have been apologies over the years. Offering to replace something that was broken. Asking for a hug and cuddling at bedtime. "I can't believe how angry I get sometimes." "I never thought I would do something like that." "I was so tired yesterday. Guess I just snapped." "Remember how we used to be?" And after the really bad fights, breaking down crying when she thinks about me leaving, and that she's finally pushed me over the edge. Wish I could glean the useful clues out of all of that - fear of being left alone, sure, but I still don't know how to bring it up with her.
The Only Advise I Can Give....
Submitted by kellyj on
are the things to avoid which come from my own mistakes in the past. I don't know if they will apply directly to you but I can offer them knowing where I went wrong?
The Leaving thing.....and the fear of being alone. This will really distort your thinking. If either one of you believes the other is going to leave even if it's not true....this will become a self fullingling prophecy. Try an avoid this and make sure you reassure her that you are not going to leave. This is one of those things that kind of seeps out from your pores ( both ways from either one or both of you) You need to reassure her and keep acknowledging that you have no plans whatsoever to do this even if you think about it at times. Thinking about it in the moment is different than actually following through after you have time to settle down and think things through. This however shows in the moment and it will make her ( or you ) believe that this is what the other one is planning to do. It believing or seeing something that is not happening from the wrong assumptions and the distortions that get created inside our heads when we start going down the wrong path in our own thinking. Don't assume....ask questions and be direct.
In stead of thinking in those terms as leaving being your only option....think in terms that you just want the anger and the current status quo to change. What was in the past is gone and never will be again so don't get trapped into trying to go back. Moving forward and changing what is to something else. It's not her you want to get away from....it's her anger and the drama that you can't stand.
If that's true....focus on changing the drama and fighting to something different instead. At least for a start....that should be your goal. After that stops is when you can discuss other things. Trying to discuss them now under your current conditions is fighting up against a brick wall of defense from both sides. Each of you are fighting and defending at the same time and no one is getting any where. I suspect...this is why she is escalating. It would feel like a panic attack if you were sinking and could not find any way out or a way to stop it. It is really just frustration turned into anger if that is the case. It comes from her not wanting to leave or not wanting to get away from you either possibly? Try and see it this way instead? She just wants away from what ever you are doing that makes her feel this way. The two of you are possibly doing the exact same thing and neither one of you want to leave but you just can't stand the fighting anymore.
If that's the case like I was saying......if you are both doing the same thing....then your fear of her leaving and possibly her thinking about it are playing off each other. That can take on a life of it's own if you don't nip that in the bud. You need to address you fears and try and remove them from the picture or it will just keep perpetuating the situation. I think the advise that my T has given me would be useful for you here. He once told me " you need to be able to leave and walk away from anything no matter who you are with or where you are at all times." This isn't planning to leave....it's being mentally prepared and not being afraid if you need to do this for yourself and the situation calls for it in your own self preservation. You aren't trying to get away or fleeing from something in desperation...you are removing yourself with intention in a well thought through calm collected process and then coming to a final decision by choice but only from a situation that is at an impasse. Until it becomes that....just being prepared and not afraid is exactly how you should be thinking about this. You aren't predicting and assuming anything if you are doing this correctly?
Think of this in terms of the mind set you have when you are playing "winning poker" when you are up....or playing "losing poker" when you are down...and how this effects your decisions and how you place your bets. I think this is very much the same thing. You need to play "winning poker" even when you are down in this case using this analogy because it will flavor everything you do one way or the other. If you don't want to leave or for her to leave....think only in terms of staying and how that can happen.
This might help you narrow down exactly what that would look like for you to come out and say so. "I don't want to leave and I hope you don't want to leave either? What if X,Y and Z were to happen. Wouldn't that be all that was necessary for either one of us to stay together?" If she tells you what X,Y and Z are....then this can be your focus and make this much easier to pin down for her.
I think in order to do this....you have to not be afraid to talk about leaving and discuss this as an option. If this is your fear as you say....you need to nip that in the bud and eliminate it since it's getting in the way here. The point in doing this in NOT to leave... but to stay? If you are afraid to do this...then you're still playing losing poker I think?
J
The Fact that She Recognizes
Submitted by kellyj on
her part and apologizes for it is a good sign I think She may not be able to see exact what that part is but she sees something and is sorry. This is an acknowledgment of this even if she isn't saying this to you directly.
J
New to this forum
Submitted by sosickofit on
Dear JohnWilson,
I read all of the messages in your thread. This is my first time on this site because this week my fiance was dx with ADHD. We have been together for 7 years, 5 of it living together. Many of these years/months/days living together have been extremely stressful and full of drama. I suspected that he had ADHD, but I couldn't "force" him to seek treatment and for years he wouldn't acknowledge that there was even an issue. We cycle through very short periods of peace, followed by miscommunications, misinterpretations and constant conflict. He exists in a space of drama, negativity, defensiveness. His outbursts, and there are a lot, can be mean-spirited and deeply hurtful. Over the years, there have also been some physical incidents where he has completely lost all control. We have had scary incidents while driving, where I don't even want to be in the car with him behind the wheel. I love this person deeply, but am close to throwing in the towel because it has simply become too much. I will not sacrifice myself and my well being and give my entire life over to this man.
You seem like an intelligent person and I am sorry that you are struggling with these dynamics with your partner. I have to say, however, that the single most difficult challenge for me is that my partner does not appreciate the impact that his behaviors have on me. He downplays even the more serious incidents and rarely thinks that he has done anything wrong. This makes it extremely difficult to make any forward progress.
Some posters have suggested that your wife has a "mental illness" because she gets angry and throws things. I can assure you I have no mental illness, but I have found myself resorting to behaviors that I am not proud of because I am so despondent at the constant, draining and stressful drama day after day after day. When my partner got into a "road rage" incident in the car a couple of weeks ago, I shoved his arm and screamed at him not to do that with me in the car. I have two sons from a previous marriage. I will not allow this person to put my life at risk. When I pulled my phone out of my bag (not exactly sure what I was going to do), I felt terrified and thought maybe I should call the police, he threw my phone in the back of the car. When I tried to retrieve it, he kept shifting the gears of the car so that I would go flying around the car. Within a matter of seconds, all hell broke loose.
When we discussed this incident in counseling, he completely downplayed it and tried to justify it by saying he learned that driving behavior from me. Complete nonsense, but he really cannot comprehend the impact of his actions. I have a lot of anger and resentment that has built up over time. I would imagine this may be the case with your wife. It sounds like you both have a lot of anger and frustration. You will stay in that same cycle if you don't get help from somewhere.
Thankfully, we began couples counseling which has definitely helped. It has created some boundaries where we are forced to "table" hot button issues to discuss at future sessions. Frankly, I think that the damage and hurt over the years just may be too much to recover from despite the efforts of counseling. We don't have children holding us together. If you are able, find an therapist who has experience with ADHD and work together to figure out the source of the anger between you. Find a safe place where you can both be heard.
We haven't seen our therapist since his diagnosis. He doesn't even want to tell the therapist that he was dx with ADHD (by a psychiatrist). That is my next hurdle. I commend you for reaching out in what seems a genuine attempt to figure out how to make sense of it all.
This Is Such an Excellent Perspective
Submitted by kellyj on
Hi Sosickofit,
You comments to John are profound and accurate I think. I am the one with ADHD...but I also can see exactly where the problem exists. The most poignant thing you said was this......
"I have to say, however, that the single most difficult challenge for me is that my partner does not appreciate the impact that his behaviors have on me. He downplays even the more serious incidents and rarely thinks that he has done anything wrong. This makes it extremely difficult to make any forward progress. "
followed by this.....
'When we discussed this incident in counseling, he completely downplayed it and tried to justify it by saying he learned that driving behavior from me. Complete nonsense, but he really cannot comprehend the impact of his actions. I have a lot of anger and resentment that has built up over time. I would imagine this may be the case with your wife. It sounds like you both have a lot of anger and frustration. You will stay in that same cycle if you don't get help from somewhere."
and finally this....
"Frankly, I think that the damage and hurt over the years just may be too much to recover from despite the efforts of counseling."
I think for anyone who has ADHD (more possibly and more specifically men with it married to a spouse without it) this is the stark reality that is staring you in the face that until you realize how predictably accurate this effect has on the average person....you will discount or over look these facts and not see the bottom line which is the last thing you said.
I would very much appreciate you explaining this last sentence to me (and John) to hear it in your own words. I think these are the words that are not being said or expressed but exist in this stark reality of truth. Since your comment was so well thought through and objective.....it would be nice to hear it in this form from someone who is not the one who is standing in front of you and angry at the time they might try to do this.
I'm also curious how you would answer the question I posed for John in my last comment to him since it seems to tie in with what I was suggesting for John to do? What would it take for you to feel differently than you do now if that were possible? I know that is difficult since you already stated that you don't know if this is even possible and I clearly understand what you said this to mean simply that....you are not sure right now. At the risk of feeling like I am badgering you for an answer you don't have....I'm asking you more directly if there is anything that might be the one thing even if you think it's not possible that might make that difference?
My intention here is not to pin down a simple reason or thing so you believe this would be all that your H would have to do....but in line with your comment about the "single most difficult challenge" could be the follow up with the "single most important thing missing or needs to stop"...... in order for this to change. It also could be a combination of both.....most important do and most important don't.
I think this might be extremely useful to hear for both of us which goes right along with what I was attempting to say to John in my own way.
FYI......this is also what I am not hearing in a concise and clear way that makes it easy to understand. I have reached the same conclusion in all the things you've said for myself.....but I never heard these words as a means to come to my conclusion which was a huge obstacle for me in trying to narrow all the things that my wife wants or complains about from me which never tells me exactly what I should be doing and what is most important at any given time.
I think if I could hear it in the same objective way you presented it to John....I could apply that in the same way as I have been trying to do all along but simply not getting in the language that allows me to understand. I think both John and I could benefit from hearing any thoughts you could add here?
I feel more than anything now.....that the words and their meanings and the consequences that come from misinterpretations are simply due to the fact that my wife and I (for example) are just speaking two entirely different languages sometimes (especially when we are angry with each other) that are hidden inside the words both of us believe that are the exact same one we use to say two different things. I hope that makes sense?
J
J,
Submitted by sosickofit on
J,
I was deeply moved by your post and I am thinking about all of the things you said and asked and will respond separately. I would be more than happy to clarify my comments. Can you please clarify which sentence you are referring to here:
"I would very much appreciate you explaining this last sentence to me (and John) to hear it in your own words. I think these are the words that are not being said or expressed but exist in this stark reality of truth. Since your comment was so well thought through and objective.....it would be nice to hear it in this form from someone who is not the one who is standing in front of you and angry at the time they might try to do this."
Is it this sentence?
"Frankly, I think that the damage and hurt over the years just may be too much to recover from despite the efforts of counseling."
Yes, Sosickofit
Submitted by kellyj on
Yes...Thank you for responding to this. I could have easily said..."would you describe how you feel..or how you felt...when you came up with your handle "So sick of it" as well. I think when it comes to really being able to express how you really feel with your partner and it has gotten to the point where you are considering all alternatives including not being together....I can say for myself at the very least....sometimes it becomes easier to stop communicating your feelings and keep them bottled up or hidden in fear of what the other person might do it you say the words like....."I'm so sick of it....I don't want to do this any longer. I think leaving would be a better option for me than trying to stay." If that is how you really feel and you only say the first part like you handle....it's very easy for the person on the other side hearing it....especially if you are prone to be in denial....the words that you are likely to fill in to the rest of the sentence will be full of wishful thinking and lies. These are the kind of lies that you tell yourself in this case since you can't face reality. Reality is not always what you want...but it is something that you will have to face at some time. You cannot hide from it.
In the moment....when we're angry.....I think none of say these things very well and they come out all at once in an emotional outburst that IS NOT...very well thought through! lol I hope you got the sarcasm there? lol (internet doesn't do well in tone and sarcasm especially when your trying to be factitious:) I'm also trying to make a point. Things like sarcasm....although funny and humorous at times....can be a default if you use it all the time and is not a direct way of speaking. If your style of communicating works fine all other times but now you are confronted with a situation where you need to use other words to make yourself clear....the importance or emphasis of your message can get lost in translation even if you use the exact same words other times without this problem.
I've shifted my attention and focus to communication with my wife right now and I have really been trying to pay attention to this. I could see where I was falling into a trap of listening to exactly what my wife told me she wanted and trying to do those things as she would say them. I noticed that nothing I did seemed to make a difference in her mood or in the fact that she seemed to remain unhappy with me many times even when it felt like I was doing everything she asked of me. I did volunteer to do this and said so up front. In respect to sounding like I was being ordered around or told what to do.....I was trying to respond to being more proactive and attentive to her in the moment and not put things off. "Yes dear.......Maniana". That "Maniana" attitude can be infectious and make the other person feel like they just don't matter. There is a real legitimate ADHD component in the "Maniana" response and it's not from being lazy or just inherently prone to procrastination. It has to do with the inability to shift gears and change directions quickly and timely because ....as I referrer to it..."it scrambles my brain."
This is a good case in point. "Scrambling my brain" is exactly what it feels like and does sound semi- humorous. But this is a serious problem for me and not one to take lightly. This is one of those things that goes straight to the core of ADHD and unless you are aware of it's impact and severity at times....it's likely to be glossed over and not taken seriously. What looks like ...."ahhh...I'll do it later" to you....and maybe even what words are spoken by us....is really..."I'm really struggling with something and I can't seem to find an answer or solution to this problem." That's a lot different than .."ahhh.....I'll do it later honey!"....as you are walking out the door on your way to do something else. If you never say what is really on your mind or admit to your spouse that you are having a problem with something....they will never know what you are thinking and therefore.....can never be part of the solution. If you can't admit that you are not always strong or when you are sick...and trying to pretend that nothing is wrong...."I'm fine thanks".....when it really isn't fine.......I think these are too easy not to notice because they are common ways of speaking that are not even lying in this case....they're just commonly used phrases that we tend to use everyday that are accepted practice as greetings or as little courtesies you offer automatically but are not really what is going on inside you.
Can you imagine? You walk up to someone as a courtesy and say...."Hi....how's it going? They turn and look at you as say "well...now that you ask...." and then proceed to down load every problem that they are having in great detail to the point that you begin to recoil in horror and regret you even said anything! lol You are likely....not going to ask this person "how's it going" again. Or maybe try it again differently next time. "HOWZIT Seesta? She may look at you funny since you are not Hawaiian and think your are trying to mess with her. Or maybe she responds to you with..."ay...we go Makapu...you comine brah"....and you don't have any idea what that person just said to you??????
I think what is needed here is to become an active listener. That means no matter what the person on the other side says to you....your start by asking questions to make sure that you understand everything that the other person is trying to say. This is taking responsibility for your own inability to speak well and assume that nothing you say is going to be understood the way it comes out of your mouth. That means....what ever the other person says in response back to you....is in turn....somewhat your responsibility. They are responding to what you said....not the other way around. If you always stay on that side of communicating....you are always making sure that your are heard and understood correctly.
If you haven't noticed already.....I have no problem responding to people. This is a good thing most of the time. I can be very social in that kind of setting and I'm usually never at a loss for words. When I have direct feedback in person....I can give and take pretty well and leave room for others to speak and ask questions no problem. I am an extrovert by default and I get charged by interacting with people. This means....if i want other people to give me a charge...I have to paying attention to these things if they are going to stay there and talk with me. Live in person....I think I do this pretty well.
But as you can see....in this kind of arena.....I don't have physical visual cues to work from. There is no tone...no body language...no feedback what so ever to cue me in and to say..".I understand." By default.....I tend tend to keep talking and adding more information assuming that the other person needs more information...while at the same time.....the person on the other side lost me at "ay....we go Makapu....you comine brah?"
I also have ADHD. I have trouble focusing continuously for too long. Therefore.....the way I compensate is to stay active in the conversation to stay focused. Someone seeing this might think..."Gee...this guy likes the sound of his own voice and likes to hear himself talk." This would be a reasonable assumption? Lots of people have this tendency and I know a few. This is not what is happening with me. I'm doing it for a different reason .....actually...ONE reason. I lose track for the conversation if the other person goes on for too long and then I start meandering inside my head. Meandering inside my head turns into meandering when I speak. This turns into the other person losing track of me and getting annoyed. Ironic that an my inability to stay on track and listen and hear for too long...turns into the other persons inability to follow and they lose track of what I'm saying. In social settings....I have no problem with this. I'm paying attention to this inability of mine constantly and focus intensely on this so I don't do this with people.
At home with my wife....I CAN'T do this. I repeat...can't. I do not have the ability to keep this up 24/7 at home. It's part of my dysfunction and I have little control of it. I can't compensate any other way than to talk too much and fill up space which means...I'm also not listening well. Is the problem that I don't listen well. No. I listen very well. The problem is...I can't focus for too long. And when that happens....I meander and tune out. This becomes my only way to manage this dysfunction and then I appear like I'm not listening. The trouble is....I am listening and doing my best to manage at the same time. This is what is really happening but other people have no idea this is what I am doing.
Now you know this too.(maybe you already knew...and maybe you didn't?) Right there is where things go wrong? Too assume...or not to assume..that is the question? ha
This becomes a problem for both people with no intention on my part. But without a different alternative than actively participating by talking....I can't hear everything that is being said and miss things or important parts of the conversation since I'm a little behind just trying to hear and listen in the first place.
That's why it is really useful for me to hear things said in different ways and more than once so I can get the full meaning of what my wife is telling me at times. If it only comes out as defense and irritation....those things are blocking my ability to understand the message and the meaning of the words being said in their entirety since I'm focusing only on the individual words.
And if you knew this already....all of this would have been unnecessary. If you didn't....this would be helpful.
So....saying the thing that is the most important thing for you which is how you are really feeling about your H and the status of your relationship and saying how you really feel about it and any hope for the future becomes the most important bit of information that your H could have. It would tell him exactly what he needs to be focusing on the most so he isn't left wondering, making assumptions, guessing wrong and leaving things up for interpretation. This isn't what I want to do....but I need to hear the words in a way I can understand them. If you don't know how you feel or what you want....then you need to know that first. If you are never asked....you might not ever get the chance to say it or think about it ahead of time?
If the only way you can communicate that you are at the end of your rope and about to leave is by complaining about each an everything that bothers you and pointing those out.....this does not communicate anything other than that to the other person? It's a big jump from that too.....I'm so unhappy I want out of this relationship.
If that is what you are feeling....you need to find a way to say that as considerately and clearly as you can if you want the person on the other side to hear it and get the message without question. This isn't saying you are leaving. That one is not hard to understand. But that's just the act of doing it and telling the person your intentions....it doesn't say how you are really feeling.
If you are assuming that the other doesn't care about your feelings so you don't share them....your not giving the other person a chance to respond and then possibly do something about it. It's not fair to that person if this is what you are doing.
If you say "when you do this....it hurts." Then give examples of why it hurts in a way that can be understood.....this should tell the other person all they need to know." What they do with that or how they respond to it is up to them but.....if you are not making yourself understood in the first place....then that failure is on your end of the conversation.
Wow...sorry...I was on a roll! I've never been accused of not being thorough! lol But again....this is a manifestation of several things...it has nothing to do with inability to listen or understand. Being an active listener I have found is the alternative to be an active talker to help manage my inability to stay focused. The best way to do this....is to ask a lot of questions.
But first.....you need to not be afraid of the answer in order to do this. If that's the problem....the person on the other side will never get the chance to say how they feel?
So I ask you.....how do you really feel?
J
Hi..
Submitted by sosickofit on
So, I haven't read your other response yet. Because you conveyed SO much amazing insight in this post, I want to respond before I lose my thoughts. I wanted to say that sickofit was populated because I went on a blog for stepchildren. We are not married, but he has a daughter who is pretty selfish and inconsiderate and creates a lot of problems. I was looking for help with those issues as well. It kinda described how I was feeling about the issues with my partner, but probably isn't the best descriptor. Couple that with my partners dx and it is stressful to say the least. What I am sick of are the fights and conflicts.
I am all about feelings. I have a background in social work so I am very dialed in to my feelings and the feelings of others. Feelings are VERY difficult for my partner. In therapy, when I try to communicate how upsetting something was, like the "car incident", he is completely unable to empathize. That's it! He doesn't possess empathy! He does not have the capacity, doesn't know how, never developed, no one ever taught him how to put yourself in someone else's shoes. I will ask you a ? Is this a challenge for you??? You seem able to focus on feelings. Are you able to put yourself in your wife's shoes? Even if I spell it out for my partner, like "when you said that, it really hurt my feelings", he doesn't understand. In therapy, he has also said outright, I don't understand what you are saying. That makes it extremely difficult. The other challenge is that we spend SO much time in therapy discussing his needs that we often 1) don't discuss my feelings at all 2) spend all session addressing his needs and validating him. I can see for my partner, there is some shame associated with his dx. He doesn't like medication, he doesn't like not being in control, he is worried about whether/if the medication will change his personality.
The other big issue for me, and I think I said this. When something happens, an incident, disagreement or fight, he doesn't accurately reflect what actually happened. Is this because he forgets? Is it too hard to admit because of the ego? Today, in therapy, he was discussing how he doesn't have any issues with self esteem, but I don't think that is true. I think that he struggles with his self esteem and I would even say that, at times, he has low self esteem. Is he protecting the "ego"? I mean, THE "ego". Not his ego. Maybe it is a defense mechanism.
So, you see I am trying to understand, I want to understand. I am also doing my best right now to give him what he needs, ie being an active listener, giving him positive feedback when things are good, appreciating him for the good things he does. And, this is probably the most important thing: NOT getting mad at him for those things that I know he cannot control. For example, last evening, he was telling me something and I jumped in without letting him finish (I am trying, but I am NOT perfect). He snapped at me, said I interrupted him and then he totally shut down and he said he was done talking for the night (very rash!). I realized right away that what probably happened is he had his thoughts organized and my interruption messed up his thinking and he really couldn't remember or focus back on what he was saying?? Is that accurate? I didn't get mad. I apologized for interrupting (even though, as you alluded to in your post, you can do a lot of talking, and I am guessing you occasionally interrupt?? read my sarcasm!)
It is much easier to be 100% supportive when the person has finally chosen to begin to acknowledge that there might be an issue contributing to the problems in the relationship and the problem isn't all you (me). For so long, he blamed me for everything that was wrong. I think about an alcoholic who refuses to acknowledge they have a problem and the havoc this behavior has on families, but the alcoholic keeps saying "I don't have a problem". You can't function without intervention. In the case of an alcoholic, you stop drinking. For people with ADHD, I am sure you first have to being willing to say something is not right, you may need medication and you need tools in your toolbox that will help you when you have difficulties. One thing I stopped doing is giving him to many things at once with too much information. I try to keep explanations more brief and I am trying to pay attention to when I think he has lost focus on what I am saying. If I need him to do something, I give him a post it note or index card with ONE thing on it. The other day it was "call the painter".
Maybe you call help me understand and I can help you understand. I think I have a few important things working for me that helps me with this 1) my social work background 2) a certain degree of emotional intelligence 3) ability to not personalize everything 4) perspective. If your wife perceives you in that state of "chronic anger" every action, every word, every fight, every look will be perceived and framed in a negative way. Remind me, are you in counseling together?
The Thing You Said About...
Submitted by kellyj on
recalling events differently. I do know this one and is one my wife has trouble with. First....yes, I have been in therapy for a long time....without adding, coming up on 15 years now. I'm so use to saying 10 that times goes by and I forget to keep track. And yes...we are in therapy together now. Both of us agreed to this easily. My wife is also in social work but on the delegating end. She's a coordinator for providers and does work with client with IDD (case manager)...but her function is not to work with clients directly with their issues....only to make assessments of their needs.
And no...I have never had a problem with putting myself into other peoples shoes whether it be my wife or anyone in my past. Even as a kid. I have thought about this for a long time and the only thing that seems clear to me from my past was that empathy is a requirement demanded from you if you have a Narcissist for a parent. They do tend to be demanding in that way if you understand what I mean? It also makes you very self reliant since...your needs are usually down the list of things of importance. This is the only thing that I can think of or a reason why I might be ahead of others in this one area. You are taught pretty young that your needs are second mostly all of the time....which forces you to always be thinking about the other person and how they might feel. It's pretty much laid out for you since Narcs aren't bashful when it comes to telling you what they want and what you aren't dong for them. I guess you can look at this like empathy training. lol
And yes...I think for someone with ADHD alone.....everything is a defense mechanism of some kind. I think that's what you need to find a hole in and get past first before any empathy can emerge. But this is where I can't of much more help. I appear more unusual in that way than it sounds but I am also not hearing both sides of the stories it makes it difficult to see where the empathy is missing? I think it's too easy to lose it either way when you get stuck in a rut and not sharing.
Between my wife and I specifically....I think I am the more emotionally intelligent one and have no problems with empathy and seeing both sides of our issues together. She is more tunnel vision and one dimensional in how she sees thing. She told me when I we first met that she is a concrete, black and white thinker. If I didn't understand that before....I do now! Whew! It's very difficult for her to see things outside or anything but an "either or" proposition. I know her mother and have come to understand why she is this way and her mother is a chronically abusive person. My wife is all about defense and has some self esteem issues related to her past. Easily hurt, easily offended, highly defensive and misreads intentions and quickly comes to the wrong conclusion and is fearful and mistrusting. She was very much led astray by the things she was taught to believe and she has a lot of those beliefs still swimming around in her head. A bit of magical thinking and some unrealistic expectations which she makes a lot of the wrong assumptions from. This can be very difficult to navigate around at times.
The thing that I understand about my wife is the anxiety portion of her personality. She experiences a great deal of stress and has many sensitivities. Our T has likened her to a Porcupine. When threatened...you know what they do? Trying to get past the quills is a tough one when they are up. A lot of it simply has to do with insecurity and being emotionally reactive but the difference between the two of I think has more to do with the amount of time I have been working on my similar issues and I have become far less defensive and emotionally available than I use to be. I am also not emotionally volatile and tend to say nothing instead of going on the offensive. This is the biggest difference in how we approach things and is the biggest source of contention for us. When someone pushes this too far and won't back down once I've asked them to once or twice. I can go into the offensive in the same way. This is what happens with us. Now we're both doing it. Now that understand this better....I've learned what to avoid with her. This seems to work fairly well. If I don't flip her into defense with quills up...I can talk to her. If she goes into this posture however...there is no getting through until she lowers she quills. lol
So here's all I can say here. I may be typically ADHD and do all the things that you could name except....I don't lack empathy. I don't always express it well or remember to be demonstrative...but if you nudge me and say hey....I can remember to show and express it even if I get too deep inside my head and am not paying attention. Succinctly?....all I need are reminders at this point and I can take it from there without too much outside help. That's where I'm at. (sorry for the grammer)lol
More than anything....I've learned how to communicate my emotions better and have become better at expressing them in other ways than before. This makes it a lot easier to read what is happening with another person who has the same or similar ones that you have as long as you don't get sucked into the same ones yourself and start doing the same thing too....round and round. lol
The other thing here about my wife and I...she has a great capacity for empathy. She just shuts down and gets defensive and when she does...she has 0 under those circumstances. She admits to distorted thinking which is a result of her childhood. She says....she see's it...but is struggling to get past this part. She was abused pretty badly when she was young and I know that she knows that this is the cause.
As far as the remembering details and events. She has a bad memory in general...but I know what you are saying about recalling things accurately. I can see which direction her memories are headed if you follow me. It seems to go into the direction that she wants them to go...not simply trying to recall the event and not remembering it? This does not appear to be my issue either. I'm pretty distortion free in my ability to recall. I'm thankful for that.
So as far as getting someone to acquire the ability to have empathy and compassion....I'm clueless? It not my wife's issue...her's is just having a multitude of defense mechanisms more than most I think. With her...the empathy can come and go but it's always tied to her being in a defensive posture. Her defense mechanisms are not easy to get around always....but at least I understand it? If that makes sense.
Oh...and as far as the chronic anger or irritability that may be a response to me...but she was like that to begin with. It's part of her "quills". lol I tend to be more stoic..not ask for help...passive and not show anger until it's too late. By that time it comes out big but cools off fast. I'm generally more sunny...glass is half full...and less melancholy consistently compared to my wife.... but I go more in cycles instead of being chronic with depression or melancholy. That's my issue.
J
hi. I have to strongly disagree...
Submitted by sosickofit on
....with this statement. "empathy is a requirement demanded from you if you have a Narcissist for a parent". I was raised by two parents, neither of whom were narcissists or had any tendencies toward self centered behavior, and sacrificed everything personally, but I had siblings. I learned from 2 parents with 4 children that you needed to understand why it was not ok to feed your sister a "mud pie" from the sandbox. Empathy is a critical tool for developing the capacity to understanding others. I feel strongly that not possessing this degree of understanding or empathy leads to challenges in every single relationship one will encounter. Whew, I had to get that off my chest...sorry.
I typed a bunch of stuff and lost the post somehow.
You sound like a person who is very in touch with relationship dynamics and I am amazed at how in touch you are with your emotions. To be in therapy for 15 years has taught you many valuable tools I am sure. I wish he would commit to the work in therapy. I spent several years in therapy off and on. I was dx with cancer at a young age and have had to deal with a tremendous amount of adversity in the last decade. I know what my strengths and weaknesses are. I think therapy, with a good therapist, can be so insightful. I have been seeing someone more recently because of the stress with my partner and I was pretty low. T helped me focused the attention back on me and my needs and encouraged me to focus on my own goals and self development. I just got a new job in oncology social worker and am excited to regain some of my confidence and focus. I am certainly not without fault in my relationship with my partner, but comparatively speaking, I am a very calm, zen kind of personality and he is the exact opposite. I was drawn to him because my ex H was a very low energy person, kind and caring, without drama, but low energy. My partner is full of life and can be fun to be around when he is not struggling with some dramatic event.
There are striking similarities in the way you describe your wife and how my partner is. He has a lot of anxiety which I am sure is brought on by feeling deeply insecure, frustrated at not being able to control things, feeling down (he was initially treated for depression) because he feels like "something is wrong with him". I am almost certain there was some abuse when he was younger and your Ts description of your wife as a porcupine I can so relate to. If his head is in a good place and he is not feeling stressed, you can talk to him about anything. If he is feeling stressed, defensive, anxious all effective communication goes out the window. I am learning when to talk about certain topics and when its best to be quiet.
Today was a good day. He was happy when he came home. He was easy to talk to and was in good spirits and said kind and funny things to me. He said he took the Adderall today and it seemed to help him with his racing thoughts. I am hopeful that once he sees that I want to be there for him and that I will support his efforts WITHOUT JUDGEMENT, because I know this is difficult for him, maybe he will let go of some of these defenses. Maybe when he sees that he is imperfect just like we all are and it's ok, he can release the need to control the uncontrollable.
I am curious to know if your ADHD affects your moods. You said you are glass half full. I was confused by your last sentence. So you sometimes do get depressed cyclically? The best way to describe what happens with my partner is he gets down. He can be very glass half full sometimes, but then so glass half empty. We have been 7 years together and last winter, he had a major depressive episode and went on anti depressants because the psychiatrist said he was depressed. I think it was episodic and I don't think he has depression. His moods are very, very, very up and down and consistent in their inconsistency. He can snap within seconds and go from light hearted and happy to dark and angry.
I am sorry if I missed this. Does your wife have her own therapist? It would be good for her to also have a place to go that is for her to talk about her feelings and perhaps she would open up with T to work on some of the concerning issues like the past abuse. It sounds like she has a hard time dealing with her own stuff that maybe there isn't anything left when it comes time to support you and work on your relationship. Sometimes I feel so emotionally drained with my own issues, I don't have the patience to deal with my partner. I feel like "I am trying to deal with all of the ramifications of my cancer treatment, with the long term side effects of chemotherapy, problems with all kinds of life and death stuff". I see him struggle with seemingly small things and I have gotten frustrated that he doesn't see that it's not earth shattering, but I understand better now. I tell him a lot "it's ok, let it be ok". He puts too much pressure on himself. If he were kind and not mean spirited, willing to work on himself, and in touch with his emotions and the feelings of others, I probably wouldn't even consider leaving.
I Beleive in My Heart...
Submitted by kellyj on
there is nothing to disagree with. But what you said caused me to reflect and think about this some more. I realized something very important in what you said and in I am in complete agreement. Taking that a step further...I see something now that I had not considered. The fact that I had to pause and reflect in itself told me something. There are some things that you do not need to explain to yourself and those are your feelings. Outside of this....there are still some things you might think that do not need to be explained. One of them is the train of thought that I found myself going through which made me pause and think about this. I realized that my personal theory about being raise by a Narcissist gave me empathy was an incomplete hypothesis on my part but that's only because these are things that no one probably needs to stands back from and tries to think about until you do. It's one of those givens that needs no explanation until you find yourself confronted with it. Narcissism by itself did not create this condition of learning....it's the dichotomy that is creates that forces you into this adversarial position or adversity that you must find a way to overcome. In respect to this and what you said....I was forgetting about something that was really important.(the hole in my theory)
You're right....empathy is something you learn and you learn through experience. One of them comes from adversity ( adverse-sity, adverse-ary, adverse-arial ). The ability to problem solve and come through adversity is a human experience. So is the experience of mutual co-operation, sharing and compromise. Self sacrifice I think is a component of compromise but as a sub set in the same category. Compromise itself is the key to problem solving and resolution in every respect. Without it....there can be no resolution.
By any other name you can think of...Narcissism is just being chronically inconsiderate of other peoples feelings. If you want to argue feelings...the only one I can see is that everyone has them. That is the only common thread between you and everyone else. Everyone has them...and they are all different. The only way anyone else can know what yours are is to tell them....but to assume otherwise is arguing against something that you know yourself is not true. This might be the definition of insanity.....or at least one of them to use as a criteria?
The dicotomy that this condition created in our family put my mother, sisters and myself in an abnormal imbalance of nature that set us apart from our father putting us all in the same boat together. This created a unity and condition of mutual cooperation relying on each other and on ourselves individually to overcome. This included our mother which in this case...was also abnormal and natural. It (being the dichotomy itself) by definition becomes adversarial and IS the adversity that you face. What causes this is the other persons thoughtlessness and inability to compromise.
Actually, strike that...this isn't completely accurate. The inability to compromise comes from an inability to consider other peoples feelings. The net effect on you makes you assume or feel like they think theirs is more important with malice or intention behind it but here is the most difficult thing to wrap your head around until you realize something. A person with this malfunction I believe....only considers one persons feelings as if the others do not exist. Cognitively....they will agree with you. Internally....the ability to see outside of the one is all they can see. It is in it's purest form....ego- centric, self centered and incomplete. All you have to do to understand this is to understand how a child sees the world without the same ability that I am referring to. We all start out that way and learn from experience to be different. If you never learn....you will never be able to see things any other way.
So taking this to the next obvious conclusion that one might make? We assume that everyone has the same ability we have from the same experience and you know this without having to explain it to someone. It's why you don't need to figure out how this happened. Most people normally have this same experience in their life to learn from that gives them the ability to see themselves and other people as different than themselves and to know that your feelings are no better, worse, right or wrong that anyone else. Everyone has feelings and they are equally valid. It such a stupidly simple concept that you shouldn't have to explain this to someone? But that is the wrong assumption to make since you also know that this is not always true.....if they aren't a child that is.
This is why I said I am clueless in knowing how to get someone to have empathy. I know I have it along with the ability for compassion. I have the ability to cooperate, coexist, compromise and problem solve. I could be better sometimes but it's easy to do if you remember to do it in the moments when you forget or something else overrides your ability see outside yourself. What I don't do is endlessly argue in a circle and try and justify or validate my feelings as being more important or right compared to someone else's. That's just crazy! I can use other criteria to use to compromise between my feelings and someone else's...but this is an easy process normally and doesn't require a lot of effort to do as long as you remember to do it when it might be easier to think otherwise. I think this is a completely normal everyday thing for most people to do.
But what if there is only one person's feelings to consider when you have more than one involved and this person only sees theirs and no one else. I want ot reword this to be clear....the one and only one that they can see....or.....and inability or dysfunction in their ability to see anyone else the same as you were when you were a child? As you learn and grow and with it....your ability to have compassion and empathy....you learn from each experience that teaches you this and it becomes a normal part of your everyday life. You do this without thinking about it or having to have it explained to you and you also assume that others (as reported to you) have this same ability too. That's where you are wrong but you don't realize the error in your thinking.
If this is true....you are approaching a person like this from this wrong assumption. You believe them to have this ability the same as you but they don't. You argue endlessly until you are blue in the face and make your case based on your belief but that's why you get the responses you do that do not seem to fit or make sense? If the purest form here.....your feelings do not exist. They are invisible. With not intention of the other persons part because they simply are aware of anyone else feelings...they proceed accordingly as if they aren't there.
I'm going to make a bold statement here that I will stand on. Speaking for myself and no one else....I know I have this ability. I can even come up with the defining moments that I learned this and it goes all the way back to when I was a child. I can see the progression. I can see how I learned and I can see the experiences that taught me how. I've used the words oblivious to describe myself at time in reference to ADHD. This is how I think that other see me. When it comes to other peoples feelings....I know that I am never oblivious to them, indifferent to them or do not have the inability to see or consider them as being different than my own and in need or compromise and communication to arrive as a balance between the two. That's a normal healthy dichotomy that is between myself and another person. Two sets of feelings for two sets of people. It is so easy and simple that I do it in my sleep. But if I'm simply focused on something else intensely (singularly focused...hyper focus....laser focus?) I am not using this ability to see both at the same time under those conditions. It's the only time that I don't see both at the same time which is just part of my ADHD. If I haven't been able to express this before in these words....I feel comfortable enough now to say it and feel like I am very close to being accurate.
If if were only my opinion here to work from...I would say that ADHD does not preclude a person to have empathy or even a lack of it. Intermittent or inconsistent based on the amount of time spent hyper focusing and being singularly focused. From someone who has and has now spent a great deal of time thinking about something that normally...no one ever thinks about. I think this is the primary distinction between lack of or inability to empathize with another person and see both sides of a situation to find a solution or compromise. This just doesn't seem to be my problem and I can clearly see that it isn't. What I can't see is myself in moments when I .......space out, hyper focus, get singularly focused and not paying attention to other people. I'm likely to in advertentyly miss a place where I should have been paying attention to other people....but this is just a by product of this phenomenon. I would have to literally...find someone just like myself and spend enough time with them to know what that feels like which might be difficult to do anyway since there are only 5% or us running around out there.
But if that were possible....then I would know what you know and could relate exactly to the stories I read here.Why? Because I don't lack empathy or don't have any dysfunction in this ability whatsoever. At times.....seemingly more than others? It seems painfully obvious to me but you have to take my word for it. This ability does not wane or diminish or even change. If I'm not paying attention....I'm simply not using it sometimes if that makes sense?
For a person who has a disjunction specifically in their ability to compromise and cooperate and predictably and consistently arrive at the conclusion that comes from only considering one set of feelings when there are more than one involved.....that's a different story altogether. It's not even in the same category even if he net results at times might look similar.
I think I just had a idea that might serve to make this distinction more clear based on my own experience with one of these people. Comparing what I said about not paying attention or looking like I'm oblivious from the outside...using that as the criteria as other might picture what that looks like in those moments....and compare that to someone sitting in front of you looking directly at you with full attention and trying to have a circular conversation or argument about compromising to something that seems to be going no where and is making you crazy?
I might forget or space something out that might appear inconsiderate or thoughtless. Using these two words to make to further make this distinction. Thoughtless or not being mindful would apply to me in that case for the reason I said....being singularly focused in a moment when I needed not to be. This happens randomly for many reasons but it is not the majority (not even) of the time. It happens more often that I am aware of and this too is part of this dysfunction. Time gets away from you or stand still so you lose your ability to know how long. But in fairness to me and how much I have worded on this. I do have a better and more realistic idea of approximating how often or how much I do this. The Adderall helps tremendously here and is part of my new found ability to know this now compared to before.
Being inconsiderate or indifferent would describe how I see the other version as I see it. I do not see myself as either and don't try and argue the times when I lose my ability what so ever and I have acted this way. I have a conscience and I know the difference even when I'm the one who is being this way. As I see this....that is the biggest difference in empathy and the ability to have it or not and where it comes from.
So to ask me how to get someone to have empathy....I know how I got it but I don't know if I could teach that to another adult human being? I think it's possible to teach someone since I learned it myself...but there is a component to character disorders that makes these people highly resistant to learn. Why that is I really don't know that much about all the reasons why. All I can do is speculate and that is not a very scientific approach. My experience tells me however....that this is true. Everything I experienced seems to say the same thing. I can however understand from my perspective having ADHD...that there are some legitimate reasons for these things if you are trying to explain why it happens. I just don't know exactly why that is?
I know this may not help much and I am not trying to defend myself against being a Narcissist....my intention is to share something or get you to see something that was very difficult for me to see. The has to do with what you are looking for specifically. Resolution. If you take what I said about compromise being connect with problem solving and resolution....if this is where you are and have found nothing that helps you find your way in getting to that place.
Being more direct with you from my experience.....you will not get it if this is what is happening with you and your husband (if this is his problem)..namely...the complete inability to have empathy and compassion. They kind of one in the same. Only to say....if you see it and it exist in him....then it's there and that's not your problem. Getting him to develop it more by teaching him or setting examples for him to follow would seem like the obvious course of action but...it sounds like this is exactly where you are now. I hope I read this correctly? If that's true....I do understand. You will have to be the one to make that choice I'm afraid and I won't try and sell you on continuing to do what it sounds like you have already done. If your were with me...I would be making that case with you but I think I might have some ways to back this up the same way I have done with my wife. It is the current road we are on and moving forward.
Coming back now to what you originally said and the hole in my theory. This split between my father's inability to see outside of one set of feelings when there were 5 to consider....the other four end up learning and teaching each other to do this anyway. What I keep forgetting and to some degree...can't remember, started before I was old enough to remember anything and moved forward from there. My mother and sisters have relayed some stories about how they all took turns taking care of me when I was a baby and even more so when I was old enough to be mobile and cause trouble. I learned many things along these lines from my older sisters who not only took care of me many times but also have a great deal of compassion and empathy themselves. I see myself with no less of an ability than they have including my mother who had this ability and a huge capacity for it. Being in the same boat together in this way....we all learned it together and it's also the reason why we got along and did not fight. My mothers issues did not involve this inability and I am thankful for that since..she was the source for me in learning how to have empathy and we all learned it from her. Unfortunately....my father learned nothing even though he was exposed to the same opportunities to learn as I had. This is the part that I said I cannot explain or don't really understand exactly the reasons why?
J
The source(s) of the problem...
Submitted by sosickofit on
J,
I first want to say that I was moved by your post, mostly by the fact that you care enough to try and understand and make sense of the dynamics of what may be happening. I hope I can answer your questions and be helpful. If you need clarification, please post back.
I will go back a bit...in the beginning when my fiance and did not live together and were dating for two years, there were no issues. Life was wonderful! I thought for certain that I would marry this man so I moved myself and my children to a different community and we bought a house together. Almost immediately, I began to see real challenges with expectations. I realized very quickly that I would bear the primary responsibility for nearly everything...cleaning the house (he had a philosophical problem with cleaning services), doing the shopping, laundry, yard work, cooking...you name it. Initially, I didn't mind, but over time, I began to see a complete lack of appreciation for the extent of what I did, OH and I had a job! He wouldn't clean up after himself, he would walk through the house with his dirty shoes on, eat food on the sofas, I could go on and on. Herein lies the beginning of the problems...I couldn't say anything. If I did, he would snap and he would proceed to tell me all of the things HE did and how grateful I should be that we live in the town, send our kids to these schools, basically just shut up and be happy. Then, he began to criticize me and point out all of the things I didn't do. He would find the ONE thing I didn't do and point it out. Or, if I didn't clean something perfectly, despite his sloppiness, he would re-clean it. I am very independent, ivy league educated, 20 years in NYC, so I don't take a lot of BS. I would call him out and we would have blow out fights, where in the end, of course I wasn't going to win the "battle", I was left in a heap on the floor crying because he would threaten to "shut me down", take away my phone, leave me without a way to support myself and my children and tell me I would have to move again, even though I had just uprooted my family to be with him. There were times when I hid my phone outside so he wouldn't take it away from me.
This has gone on cyclically for 5 straight, long, stressful, joyless years. Just last week, he flipped on me. He said that 1) I purposely don't clean the toilets 2) I purposely don't clean the showers 3) "get out of my life" 4) told me he was going to return some gifts which he uncharacteristically and impulsively purchased for me 5) the comforter is filthy, why don't you wash it? He will goes days without speaking to me. Can you imagine what it is like to live like this?
Over the last five years, I have been choked, had things thrown at me, have been called an asshole, a piece of shit, been told to fuck off more times than I can say. On a Caribbean vacation, he threatened to leave my sons and I alone while he left the island with his daughter because I asked his daughter to take her sheet off of her bed so that I could wash it, not wanting to enter the space of a teenage girl and take it off myself. We have had countless fights about his daughter. That is an entirely other issue!
So, to sort of circle back to your question: "what would it take for me to feel differently?" Well, I will say that the fact that he seems to FINALLY know that he needs some sort of intervention is a bit of a game changer for me because it all makes sense now and allows me to be somewhat more sympathetic. Had we addressed it sooner, I probably would have reacted differently, been more patient and understanding, hence less fighting. BUT, here is the major BUT...as much as I want to move forward, I can't erase all of those years of hurt, stress, anxiety and I am not at all confident that in the end, much will change. In the time we have been together, I have ended up on anti-anxiety medication and blood pressure medicine. I am pretty young. As strong as I am, it is simply not possible to avoid him living in the same house. Even when I tried desperately to not fight, he would follow me around the house threatening me and really verbally abusing me until I broke down. That was often the ultimate end game. Most often, he got what he wanted because it would simply become too much. I have left, stayed in hotels. It's been so bad.
Crazy as it seems, despite all of this, I do still care about him. He is an inherently good person, whose heart is often in the right place. He would move heaven and earth for me (then cover me in dirt..lol) Ok, not funny...but it seemed apropo! But he is a person who cannot control himself. I see that now in light of the dx. I am not confident that he will follow the medication protocol prescribed by his MD and it is not my responsibility to nag him to take it. But, what would go a LONG way to healing some of the past hurts would be some acknowledgement that his actions have contributed greatly to these talks of separation. Stop blaming others and take responsibility. Even yesterday, he gave me a hug and thanked me. I said that I wish I knew; we could have saved each other a lot of heartache. I asked him to tell me truthfully if he was dx with ADD as a child. He said no, "I have only had it since I have been with you". This is why the end of this relationship is inevitable. He said it was a joke, but I think what he really was saying is...if I weren't with you, I wouldn't have to address the ADHD.
The one thing he would have to do if we were to have any hope of saving this relationship would be for him to understand the impact his behaviors have had over these years and I don't think that will happen. I don't think that his ego can take it. This is critical because without this awareness, without the ability for him to connect his actions to the struggles with us, how will things ever change?
I have been working on myself and recently got a new job which will give me some chunks of time away from him and contribute to my own personal development and ability to get out if I choose. I want peace, but peace may never come.
Interpretation?
Submitted by kellyj on
Thanks for giving me the run down. I think I see some things here that might help you see what he is saying. I'm using myself here and the times I can see myself doing the same thing. Back up to......Almost immediately, I began to see real challenges with expectations. I realized very quickly that I would bear the primary responsibility for nearly everything...cleaning the house (he had a philosophical problem with cleaning services), doing the shopping, laundry, yard work, cooking...you name it. (stop right here) Take a look at your conclusion Initially, I didn't mind, but over time, I began to see a complete lack of appreciation for the extent of what I did.....that was an assumption on your part. Presumptuous? Maybe? Oh, and I have a job. (dagger. right in the heart)
It's difficult to see this any other way...but I think you need to consider an alternative to your conclusion? You mentioned a philosophical issue with getting help and having someone else come in and help clean? This is telling for me. I'll reword this in my own words and give it back to you as I hear it....
"I have this problem with trying to keep up on housework and I can't figure out why that is? I need to find a way to do it better and if you do it or someone else comes in and does for me....I'll never learn how to do it." Does he say this? Probably not. Is he already (now)...starting to get nervous and feeling anxious and a little insecure. YES!!! Does he say this. Almost guessing for sure. NO. lol
The dagger...."and I work!" He hears....your not doing your job and you aren't working. I'm working and your not. The net result is with you having to do more work....he hears......YOU ARN'T WORKING. Now he's getting more insecure and more nervous since he can't figure this part out. Trying harder feels like working even if the things are still not getting done for him. This starts a pattern he's probably been in all his life on some level.....but he's never been confronted with this one before and suddenly...he doesn't know what to do. He's not going to say this....but it makes you start to feel very insecure. He said no, "I have only had it since I have been with you". There you go.....that's his way of saying what I just said. A day late and a dollar short and completely unintelligible! lol
Everything you said from start to finish I recognize as a pattern or dynamic. I can almost predict the next thing each person will do or say because I have lived this one myself. Bottom lining you here.....you have been ahead of him the entire time and assuming he understands any of this or know what to do about it which he has no idea how to fix the problem....but he knows without question that there is one. This sets in an extremely frustrating, panicking insecurity from feeling like you can't do something that you are expected to do and can't figure out why you can't do it. He knows he can do these things....so "why can't I just do it?"
The problem is....there are a lot of reasons that he has no idea of. If you didn't have ADHD...you would never be required to figure this out. It's not normal to have to but if you have ADHD....this is mandatory. If you don't know you have ADHD...you run around feeling insecure all the time and not knowing what the right thing to do that will work. Everything becomes a guess and trial and error. It's a great way to learn things at times....hand on. But....you learn through experience and the person with you.....is learning too. What you are learning is everything you just said. This is not helpful for the person who is just trying to learn how to do these things consistently. This appears like a child am I not correct? Fundamentally speaking.....it is the same place you were in back then but instead of picking it up naturally....that doesn't happen. This is embarrassing to say the least. Having someone constantly pointing this out to you is like saying your are a child.
Then comes...." Fuck you....I'm not a child!!" Because...he's right. He's not a child but he should be able to do these things better if you are an adult. Here'in lies the problem. The problem is that it's not because he's a child...it's because he has ADHD. If he's just now coming to the conclusion that he's tried everything and it still doesn't work...he's has not place else left to go? This puts you into a corner. If you were him....you would be there too and feel the same way.
Saying...you would feel the same...embarrassed, insecure, panicky, like a failure (since everyone keeps reminding you of your malfunction), and at a loss. What he does with that is each person individual way of handling it. Chasing after you is insecurity. Blaming you for things is throwing it back in your face....."you do these things!"....as a means to compare the things you do to him in an attempt to minimize and bring the level down to even without actually doing anything to correct the situation. If he feels lower or less than compared to you....he will try and bring you down to him to make things even again. Does this make sense? Think of what I said if he hasn't found an answer yet of feels hopeless that there will ever be one? He believes that....all you can do is try and manipulate the situation and make it even again. You started out even....and now he's behind. This is not intentional or with any awareness of it....it just what people do when they have any other alternative. I think if people are into power and control.....they will do this more than someone who does not. But to some degree....the pattern is the same and things that each person does will be very predictable. He see's you as the one who changed because you did. It started with the assumption that you made and has continued from that point on. That assumption was wrong but you didn't know that or have any way to know that. He didn't have any idea why you were doing it and didn't have any way to know that it was something inside him that was broken or not working right to know where to start to look.
Trial and error is a slow process...but it is a good way to learn. It does sink in a permanent way through repetition and error. But you're having to be there with him while he's doing it and he's not telling you what the problem is because he can't. He simply doesn't know exactly what is wrong so he can say it in the first place. All that's left is lying or rationalizing (bullshit)...and trying to come up plausible excuses (and plausible deniability) that seem to fit. If you boil this all down to one thing here is....he's guessing and guessing wrong each time he does. That part is not his fault. You can't know what you can't know until you get there.
The rest of his behavior is his fault...or better...is his responsibility but until he finds a different way to do things...he will go with what he knows and what will work and then just keep doing it. If you can wrap your head around one concept here.....you would do the same thing if you were him to some level. Humans act in predictable ways and he's just acting in one of them because of a dysfunction. All the abusive retaliatory behavior can and will stop if he find's a different way to have success at what he is doing I think. It's all indirectly tied together by one common problem....ADHD. If you get to the source and find a different solution than the one that is causing things to go wrong....you can prevent it from happening and everything else that goes along with it will disappear on it's own the same way it started.
If he keeps trying to put a band aid on a broken leg....it will not fix the problem,
But for you....this does not fix anything other than trying to hang on until he gets there. This is where the communication and understanding becomes so important. My interpretations of him are probably pretty accurate. If you see how different they are from what you thought.....that tells you exactly what you need to do to get what you want. Find the way in and find a way to take away his anxiety and insecurity. I think this should be your target and you don't need to even tell him at first. If you get zapping is insecurity and making him feel less out of control....I think you will find that the things you want will come to you instead of demanding them from him outright. My guess is he probably would if he could. If you stop right there....this will tell you what you should be doing. Something different.
You do not have to sit and wait for him....you can be proactive and take control of the situation but....that will require you to think in terms of how might feel or think and give him some compassion and empathy first on your end. This is very hard to do in your position but it will work if you do it I think. You will get what you want if you can find that in yourself and try. Leap of faith....no guarantees....just do it and see what happens but don't expect miracles at first. If you don't succeed...try try again in this one specific case. Remember...he's trying to catch up. If you never allow him the chance....the then he won't be able to do it no matter how hard he tries.
If he really loves you and you find a way to tell him how your really feel without quilting him or making him feel like a failure...this will go a long way very quickly in getting him to respond to you. Keep that shit completely out of the picture when you talk to him. Quilting and shaming is a horrible way to communicate how you feel and what your needs are and even if you feel justified in doing it....just stop and don't. This will not serve you and get you what you want I promise you that much.
For myself..... I speak fluent victim from being raised by a victim ie" my mother. I learned it as a way to communicate with her because it was the only language she knew. I can speak it....I can understand it....but I'm not a victim. I have at times become one but not in a chronic sense. But that language itself is habit forming and guilt and shame are the primary constituents. Get that shit out of your language entirely!! It will serve you no good from it. I guarantee on some level....your H feels like a victim even if he isn't one and this will just insight him more. Try this and see if it doesn't work?
And I still would like to hear you say how you really feel and try and say it from your heart without using the word "you" (or him) in it if you would be so kind. I'm asking you to do this because this would be the way I would want to hear it so I could understand you better. Thanks:)
J
PS OH and I have a job! Stop that. More guilt for him. lol
I went back and re-read
Submitted by sosickofit on
realizing I missed some of what you said. I am trying to read everything, I want to read everything, but I sometimes have to put it down to do stuff and come back to your posts.
Ok, this post almost made me cry because you took so much time to explain to me what I needed desperately to hear. The truth. There is so much truth to what you have said. Immediately, when he told me he was dx with ADHD, I felt like I understood everything. This is exactly what he said with T today "The rest of his behavior is his fault...or better...is his responsibility but until he finds a different way to do things...he will go with what he knows and what will work and then just keep doing it." He said it isn't going to be easy for him because he only knows one way. But, this awareness is HUGE! He has never said anything like this before. This means that what you are saying about him catching up is also true. He finally recognizes the gap.
I don't know what quilting is I must confess. I dont' think that I have purposely shamed him. I have never wanted him to feel bad about himself. He does that on his own. He is a perfectionist. I don't quite get how ADHD and perfectionism work except that it must be an effort to have successes and NOT feel like a failure. When he does a project, it can be something as simple as hanging a towel rod, he has to get a level and it has to be perfect. It has to be compensating for feeling inadequate and insecure. I try every single day to build him up, praise him, tell him I am grateful, thank him for every thing he does to support me. I know he needs this. I do believe what you said "find your way in to take away his anxiety and insecurity" will be my framework. It won't be easy, but I am going to try.
This I really need to take some time to think about. "And I still would like to hear you say how you really feel and try and say it from your heart without using the word "you" (or him) in it if you would be so kind. I'm asking you to do this because this would be the way I would want to hear it so I could understand you better." Thanks:)
What exactly do you want me to say? How I feel about him, the relationship, the situation, or are you saying tell you what I would say to him if I were to tell him how I really feel?
:)
Wow.. This is Great
Submitted by kellyj on
First ...I want to move past the part about telling me your feelings. I can sum up where I was going with this by telling you what I discovered that really helped in communicating with my wife. The biggest problem as I see it when I try and communicate with my wife has to do with what I see in her struggles to see how she feels and say it honestly or accurately. I've told her before that she is "emotionally dishonest" and without arguing if that is an accurate statement or not...I am seeing something that is very obvious to me. Like you H as you described in your T's office....she agrees with me when I say it so she understands what I mean but still does not know how to explain it to me. I see it too but I can't read her mind. She needs to tell me how she feels in a way I can understand and this is what she is not doing. I'm trying to follow intensely the things she says but there is a big gap between the words she says and then finally comes to what she wants. Without intention on her part....she is saying one thing and meaning another. I can't help her here? All I can do is play 20 questions and reduce it down for her each time. This is exhausting! I keep saying....start by saying...."this makes me feel like....( )" This appear to be very difficult for her and I'm usually the one who can come up with how she feels faster or better than she can. No one knows how you feel until you tell them but you first need to know that before you do. I feel like she is intentionally setting me up sometimes because she say things that I clearly understand...and come to find out later...it was something else instead. I take into consideration right off the bat....that my ability to communicate or how I come to my own conclusions are also flavored by my own feelings but....it does seem to me based on the two of us....that my ability to do this simply and easily sometimes is a lot better than hers. When she can't articulate her feelings to me....my default in all things learning is to see things visually. If she can say " it feels like I'm sitting next to a dead person"....I instantly know what her feelings are in this case. She used that one to describe how it feels when I tune out and am not with her or connected to her." BAM. I get it. Now I can use that as my motivation to not do these things since I can relate to something that makes sense to me. These are the moments I was talking about when I hyper focus and disconnect. There is no way I can possible know what that is like unless I had that experience myself. I need to hear another similar example of something that I can use to say it a way that I can understand it. Similes', metaphors oe painting word pictures or images are the quickest way to get me to learn and see things. She also confesses that she simply doesn't know how else to say things sometimes and I'm usually the one to come up with multiple ways to say the same thing and let her pick the best one. This is not a very good way to tell someone how you feel. It still leaves you guessing since...I was the one who came up with the example.....I need her to do this all by herself to really know.
The one telling moment on the spot that she blurted out during an argument was when I narrowed her down with the 20 questions and finally she said (in honesty)..."well....you could say no." Yes....I could. But everything you did was preventing me or from giving me the chance. I might say yes...or I might say no based on how I feel. This was her avoiding to have to face a compromise. She does this automatically since she had come to expect what will happen if she does. With her mother and I've witnessed this repeatedly....the answer is always NO. "No ...your feelings are second to mine always and that's always going to be the case each time you try and compromise with me." The trouble here is....she has not learned to trust other people and give them the chance. She does this with me and I understand it from the exact same experience in that regard. What I had that she didn't....was a mother who was not like this for me to see the difference.
I'm very glad I was able to get you to see some things. I think maybe your husband is trying to tell you something and you simply are not understanding what he is trying to say. In the same way with my wife.....she doesn't know how. What's missing on her end is trust. I test her that way repeatedly by no fault of my own....but it is my responsibility to find ways not to test her like this. If someone's dysfunction is so out of scale that this isn't possible....I can only do so much for them in this way since the expectations that come out of the dysfunction itself are unreasonable and unfair. No one can be perfect all the time and if they have to be to prove they can be trusted by being perfect to an idealistic level...then this simply is not possible...there can be no compromise under those terms.
J
Adding Here the Perfectionsim Part
Submitted by kellyj on
I think you were very intuitive in seeing that the perfectionism with ADHD does have to do with success. There is so much failure in so many things with ADHD....it sets you up to believe that you can't do things. Proving it to yourself is required to get past this I think (for me at least most definitely yes). I also know that perfectionism can take other forms and can come out from child abuse. This seems to take on a slightly different variation as I have witnessed both with my wife and my mother.
They do share this feature and I see it to be the same one. At the very least....I can understand it. I knew that this was going to be a problem for me from the get go. I did not pick my wife because she was familiar to my mother. I had come to understand that going all the way back into my twenties when I was fist married and quickly divorced. I definitely picked something familiar and attached myself to that thinking it was love or part of it. This is a common phenomenon but this is not what I was doing and was fully aware of it. Eyes wide open as they say! lol What I saw in my wife was the opposite in many ways but it does come as a package deal as they say.
Just so you know.....for the last 35 years up until recently....I was a diamond setter and custom gold and plantinumsmith. I cannot think of anything more exacting and requiring perfectionism outside of becoming a surgeon. The tiniest mistake can lead to disaster and loss of you job if you cannot perform to a level that is critically miniscule. And yet despite my seemingly lase fare attitude and ineptness with an ability to focus.....laser focus and the ability to tune out everything becomes the greatest asset one can have. Under those conditions....I created master pieces of art that ranked me up with the best of them (as reported by others and myself in this case lol) I've just decided to take that and apply it to something else instead.
The distinct difference here as I see this between my wife or my mother seems to be in an apparent need to keep validating themselves in this way as if to prove this to the world. I don't need to prove it to anyone other than myself and don't feel compelled to keep doing it in everything I do all the time as if someone was watching me and keeping score.
PS....I get this feeling like someone is watching me only with my wife. I honestly think that she is keeping score the same way she does with herself. I won't go there with her because I can see where that leads and it's not a good place or one I want to be. She suffers from it and this is clear to me.
J
Perfection gets in the way...
Submitted by sosickofit on
Before the dx of ADHD, I wondered where the perfectionism came from. I often have wondered if there was some abuse by his father, who I was told was in the mafia and he hasn't seen him since he was eight when his mother took him and his sister and left. There could no doubt be some some stern punishments or pressure to behave a certain way; he had to be afraid. At times, he seems like a scared, wounded little boy; almost as though he is stuck in a developmental stage that he was never able to successfully move through. He also gets so angry and I wonder if the aggression was learned by an abusive father or a symptom of the ADHD. I have read that people with ADHD can be happy one minute and the littlest thing can set them off. That is what I find. Or there is this hypersensitivity to everything. I think that there are a bunch of serious issues that by no fault of his own occurred when he was younger and he was never able to address them, then he also had the attention issue that exacerbated every response and permeates nearly every conversation.
Regarding the perfectionism, here is an example from today. I asked him to hang some curtains. He was installing the rod and it wasn't straight. I can't convey to you how I watch him deal with this and how unsettling he found it. I had to be straight as if his life depended on it. Why? I said "it looks great" because it really did, but all he could see what how it was ever so slightly askew. Does he feel like he is not good enough? It seems almost obsessive compulsive to me.
I was amazed at your example with your work. I am sure it is a great way for you to focus because like you said, you HAVE to. You said, " laser focus and the ability to tune out everything becomes the greatest asset one can have". Last year, after no exaggeration, 500 hrs of research, my partner bought a very expensive car. It wasn't impulsive because he spent months reading and researching every teeny minute detail, but painstakingly so. He kept asking me the same questions over and over and over about which features he should get, he osccillated between colors. For me, it was painful to watch because so much emotional and physical energy was spent focused on something that to me was a monumental waste of money. I am sorry it is not my thing. He will, at the expense of everything else, spend his days off doing stuff related to the car; waxing, cleaning; he has probably changed the oil 10 times in a year, What is interesting is he is very messy to the point of almost being a slob, but his car is immaculate. I totally understand now that like you with your work cutting diamonds, it provides a way for him to focus and he tunes everything out. I think it reduces his anxiety which I know he deals with everyday.
Two cents worth..
Submitted by c ur self on
There is so much failure in so many things with ADHD....it sets you up to believe that you can't do things.
(add my words)So the things you do have confidence in YOU OWN and your attitude toward them can be grating:(...the desire for perfectionism is driven by a desperate need for AFFIRMATION...They are crying out in an attempt to be good enough!...If I can do this will you love me? Will you respect me?
In reading you guy's post, (which are great by the way) I thought I would chime in with a few thoughts...First I want to agree w/ J's statement above and add further that when the Non partner understands this statement of insecurity they will have in hand a large chunk of what's behind much of those behaviors, that are adamant if not angry displays, that make us shake our heads and walk away, or worse, make the mistake of trying to address it verbally with someone who can't control their emotions when this is going on....
Where communication is impossible, relationships are impossible....I got a little emotional reading your post sosickofit...Your relationship and where you are emotionally is right where I was after 4 years with my wife...It took 11 months apart, and 8.5 months of counseling, and several boundaries for us to be calm enough to move back into the same house....
C
Thank you
Submitted by sosickofit on
I appreciate your two cents very much! The ADHD dx is new for me and I am just trying to figure things out. I really do try to take things one day at a time, but because of all of the pain, hurt, stress, anger, etc, I do think about getting out once my son gets to HS. I just think that some time to step away and figure out what I want/need ultimately has to happen. I wanted to leave sooner, but I felt like I made this decision to uproot my life to be with this man and I took two children with me. They don't deserve to be yanked from their house (again, because I am divorced after 18 yr marriage and I moved them to new schools in a new community with new friends). Talk about guilt JJamieson! I stayed this long for them. I feel like I have sacrificed my own personal happiness for the sake of my children, but thankfully my partner is good to my sons and they are thriving. But I am deeply unhappy and I don't feel joy. I am mostly sad day to day. Not depressed because I am a positive, glass is always half full cancer survivor, but I want to be with a man who is reasonable and calm and level-headed, not aggressive, abusive, and mean spirited. I am deeply sympathetic about the ADHD dx and I want to be a supportive partner, but I am losing myself and I can't do it! The communication is impossible. Nearly every conversation is fraught with stress, defensiveness, some snotty off-handed comment or retort. Maybe JJamieson, this is really how I FEEL! :)
I have been reading this book called "The Magic of Believing". It states: "a negative person can raise havoc. In a home, a strong negative personality can do the same amount of damage as a positive personality can do good, and when the two are pitted against one another, the negative frequently becomes the more powerful. I don't know how this will change if he is not willing to work on himself. I can make adjustments to deal with him and become aware of his triggers, but I think that the idea to separate is predicated on this notion.
I have to add..
Submitted by sosickofit on
..regarding your comment about a desperate need for affirmation. He just two minutes ago told me that I should count my blessings. I said "I do; I am thankful everyday". His response was to point to himself and say "thank this (meaning him) and he walked away. It was so random; as if I would have nothing without him. I tell him A LOT that I appreciate him and what he does. It's just too much!
Acceptance vs expectation....
Submitted by c ur self on
sosickofit, I was in bed, saw your post's on my iPhone and came back to share a few things...I so feel for you....Here is my opinion and some of my experience's...First the reality is he would be fine without you...And you also would do fine without him....The reality is you both would be better off (at peace) without each other. Same as my wife and I....
Secondly it is you and I and most Non's that is the biggest problem in the relationship. Why? Expectations...They like the way they live, it's us who it's destroying....We want them to live, and think like we do. We want what a high percentage of the population would call a peaceful, loving, respectful, responsible life of two being on flesh....Just calmly loving and getting alone....
It's getting better here because after 8 years, I have finally realized a few things....The biggest being I had to accept my wife if I was ever going to be happy and at peace (acceptance doesn't mean agreement)....But for me to be healed of anger, and bitterness i had to accept the reality of her mind....Her hoarding up piles, her rushing and hyper-focus, her forgetfulness....I have to expect her to loose two or three CC and or Debit cards each year....I have to expect her to correct my grammar every time I use seen when I should of said saw....She has to show me how smart she is:)....I'm no longer the problem, I've been healed of my anger and I just accept her...I've learned to stop letting her behavior's and blurt outs effect me and I'm learning to never address them....Which only allow's her and escape, because the minute I address her behavior I'm the target...She sets herself free....But, when I'm wise enough to walk away...she run me down with in a few minutes remorseful and apologetic....It's just the way her mind works...I had to accept that I was going to live in a messy house...No way around it as long as we live together...trying to get use to it....ouch!...I'm try to focus on love and being a good example, (that is all anyone can do) If I can I leave her messes for her to see later....She makes and effort to follow me in the things I'm good at if I will keep quiet...She doesn't recognize many her own behaviors, but, my efforts of responsibility helps her to see herself, see the difference...As long as I do not verbally address it, she always feels it's an attack (low self esteem).....When I try to discuss it, it kills the positive and increase's her feelings ineptitude and pushes her deeper into denial.....
If I wasn't married to my wife I would had been merciful to us both and parted ways...But, I am committed to my vow's and i want her to be loved like God wants her to be Loved....But for me to be that vessel, I've had to learn to accept we are on opposite ends of the spectrum (most add/adders' and Non's are) when it comes to what make's us happy, what our convictions are. We differ on most every aspect of everyday life....And unless I was willing to accept her and not live in the Illusion that somehow I could change her, then we weren't going to make it....And have any semblance of a healthy lifestyle....
This is to big for you, please find a wise counselor....If you need to separate, do it....You've got to have peace, and understand who you are, you've got to be free from the anger....
Blessings
C
Guilt
Submitted by kellyj on
The thing about guilt or shame if you are feeling like a victim is that you are carrying that around with you and feeling it all the time if you were made to believe that you are at fault or you are wrong. There is nothing wrong with having ADHD...but until you know you have it or understand why these things happen...you will believe what others tell you and what they tell you is that you are wrong and at fault. Everything is viewed through the lens that is looking for things to validate this to you because this is what you are use to. Staying away from victim language or implied fault, blame, guilt and shaming is a good practice to do. You will only be inviting a contest and defensiveness and this is where you aren't going to get a lot of empathy from someone once they flip into defensive mode.
The example I gave about you H hearing "YOU NOT WORKING" from "and I work" or "I have a job" being included in an argument to validate or justify how you feel to a person like this is just like dumping gas on an open flame. Just saying how you feel should be good enough without embellishing or adding these little digs into the sentence. My wife does this constantly and it's still annoying and irritating even if I'm not becoming overly defensive by it even though....I feel the pull from it. Best to just leave out completely I think. Sy how you feel and leave it right there. Other people are going to do what they do with it regardless of how hard to try.
For me it just feels like 'pig pile on the rabbit" if you understand what I am saying? The point here is to remember that you are trying to avoid defensive triggers and this is one of them I think. Quilting someone to do something in general is not a good way to motivate them.
J
Guilt
Submitted by sosickofit on
Are you saying that even if he is at fault, that I shouldn't point it out. Let's use the car incident as an example. He became aggressive, got into some road rage with another car, threw my phone and tried to send me flying through the car. There was no provocation on my part. I simply asked him to move out of the passing lane and let the guy riding on his butt go by but, NO...this is what is going on in his head "this person is challenging me, I will show him who is in charge..no one is going to fuck with me!" So, he drove recklessly with me in the car and subsequently downplayed the entire thing and I told him it was his fault because he didn't move over. He said I overreacted, which I assure you I did not. Are you saying that his own guilt allows him to draw this conclusion without me saying anything to him about the fact that it was his fault.
What is quilting? I have seen you use it several times and I couldn't find it when I googled it.
Yes Pretty Much
Submitted by kellyj on
Think of it like I said (in another way)....every time you shoot that bullet at him....it's going to come right back and hit you in the foot no matter how difficult it is not to do. You are trying to nurture a different response from him and this only nurturing the one you don't want.
J
Percieved Guilt?
Submitted by kellyj on
In your example....this might be all in his head (of course it is ...yes it is). In these moments....I think it might be fair to say that you did nothing to insight this on your end. Something is going on inside his head and he is reacting to it....you just happened to be there at the same time. Collateral damage? Thinking possibly? But it is still good for you to recognize this so you don't take it personally. Not that is doesn't hurt or upset you.....only that you can simply chalk this up to anything but you. I think that is a safe assumption and one you should try and ignore as best you can. Not ignore road rage....but ignore why it happens or need an explanation from him.
Guilt or perceived guilt ( or shame ) is the same for him by any other name.
J
I asked him to tell me truthfully if he was dx with ADD as a ch
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
<<<
I asked him to tell me truthfully if he was dx with ADD as a child. He said no, "I have only had it since I have been with you".
<<
My H would love to be able to give that answer in regards to his ADHD, but he knows that I know he was Dx'd long before I met him.
However, that doesn't stop him from claiming that I caused his PD's.
"The Magic of Believing". It states: "a negative person"
Submitted by kellyj on
"The Magic of Believing". It states: "a negative person can raise havoc. "The Magic of Believing". It states: "a negative person can raise havoc. In a home, a strong negative personality can do the same amount of damage as a positive personality can do good, and when the two are pitted against one another, the negative frequently becomes the more powerful. I don't know how this will change if he is not willing to work on himself. I can make adjustments to deal with him and become aware of his triggers, but I think that the idea to separate is predicated on this notion."
This is what I am up against with my wife as well. It is the single biggest issue that I have to deal with in her and for myself. Sosickofit...I'm starting to get a better picture of you situation now after reading more of the things you said. I think C is a good source for inspiration in this way because he has gone through a sort of "transformation" it sounds as I read his posts and have heard his story unfold of how he had to deal with this. And, he can correct me if I'm wrong here...but it sounds like his faith is a strong part of his ability to do this and has taken on a different meaning for him more than before. I can apply this to myself a well. I may have ADHD...but how each person deals this it is there own. I put myself in the positive category more often than not.....or saying this differently and adding in the glass is half full way of seeing things mostly in my life......I can add a few things to what I see here that might help you personally now instead of taking the ADHD position and helping explain you H. A couple of things before I leave the ADHD dx for minute and the things you mentioned.
First the perfectionism you described. Yes....this sounds different than the perfectionism I've described for myself and my work for example. This does sound more like my wife. When I was 30?...or around a'bouts......I began to manifest some classic OCD behaviors (mild but somewhat obvious...double checking, triple checking, even quadruple checking locks on doors and checking irons or stoves to make sure they were off before I could leave the house) This is of course...is anxiety related. I don't want to stay here for too long with this because this really never became a problem for me....only to say a couple of things and move on to what I see. There seems to always be a real life component to these behaviors.....a shred of truth or a tiny kernel of concern or real life bonifide threat that gets taken way too far and gets out or control inside your head internally. The feeling is that you cannot control it and and you are in a very real way.....feeling "out of control." At the time....I knew literally nothing about ADHD or OCD or anything of this nature. I had taken some psychology courses when I was in college but that was the extent of my knowledge. I began to feel embarrassed and ashamed about these behaviors because I noticed that they were making me late for things even when I should be arriving on time since I was starting the leaving the house process in plenty of time to arrive to where I was going. No one saw these behaviors but me except for being late...but as I remember it at that moment.....thought they were "creepy." That was my word for it. I thought it was "weird" and I thought it was "creepy" and I was embarrassed about it at the same time. The last thing I wanted was anyone to notice because I knew (especially back then in my own cynical critical way....I would think another person doing this would be considered a "freak" or something along those lines) These are all very negative or derogatory ways of seeing it. Notice the negative connotations that I had about this is other people were doing it (applying how I personally felt about this at the time if someone else did it) was now extending to me. Oh no! I'm a weird, creepy FREAK! In reality....I really didn't see myself as any of these things and most of the feedback I got from other people did not indicate this to me either. This was all in my head. Now I look back and just go oh'....classic OCD behaviors related to my anxiety....Okay...no big deal.
To finish this...and move on is only to say....I took it upon myself to do something about this and one day after a number of months of this "freaky" behavior....I just decided to stop. I had had enough of this freakiness and this must stop right now today!!! What I did is what I have always done since I was very little. Get pissed and go after it. This is a good kind of getting "pissed" however. It's more like Clark Kent going around the corner into the telephone booth and coming back out as Superman. What was really happening was that I was summoning the power of positive thinking that I had learned from many years training and competing as a competitive swimmer and had learned how to harness this ability and focus it in a concentrated effort into one moment of super strength in competition to perform beyond what I would normally do. It is pure positive energy....positive thinking, positive energy...positive results. Every time. This worked and I stopped all at once and never did that again. The behavior was from negative, ruminations of disaster and catastrophic thinking and it was pure negative energy. Going head on into it with my positive energy in an intensely focused way pushed me right back out of it which gave me the ability to stop and then keep doing that each time it started to happen again. Eventually and in a relatively short period of time....this went away completely and has never resurfaced again.
This ability came from 12 years of competition in swimming starting at age 6. I started at being behind many other kids and being in the middle of the pack...and ended up at the end of my swimming career back then with me setting several records and performing well past anything that could have hoped for. This change came from my ability to learn to harness this positive energy and use it in this way. I always feel a bit boastful or like I am trying to work my accomplishments in as a way to brag about myself but I can tell you from this experience....you don't need to brag since it's yours and you own it now. I just have to say it:)
The point here is not to get hung up of me but the conditions and the details of what happened to me and why. All the things I said are a patterns of a combination of things including anxiety, negative ruminating thoughts and thinking and unusual behaviors that get manifested by this chain reaction that occurs as a result from it. This was an offshoot or co morbid condition caused from my ADHD but at the time...I was just beginning to find these things out. This was my first real indication that something was wrong. At 30 years old....this is really when my personal journey of self discovery began.
So if you take what I said about anxiety in connection to negative thoughts about yourself and this growing out of control and manifesting in weird unusual behaviors...then apply this too your H including the perfectionism he is showing (more OCD I think here....that kind of perfectionism)...I think everything I said will apply or fit in there some where.
Inability to problem solve, perfectionism, chronic irritation and lashing out spontaneously for no reason (apparently?), chronic or recurring depression,problems with remembering or memory distortions and chronic negatively seeping out all over the place are all clustered together into one thing in my mind.....negative energy. And it you can't get rid of it or find a way past it....it will persist and turn into a chronic inability to deal with it. This is what I see in my wife and this is the same things you are describing I think?
So I think you can possibly consider this a side effect or symptom of ADHD (might confirm this and not take my word here)...but not always? As my T said to me years ago when asked about my OCD story and my general positive outlook on life.....he said...."somewhere, somehow....you found a way to believe in yourself." In my case...it started back when I was 6 when I started to swim. This saved my life and it all boils down to faith and positive energy and thinking. This....I have ownership of and have going all the way back starting at that time. I guess this is what I was trying to say about bragging about accomplishments. I proud of what I did but more importantly.....I don't need to tell everybody. What I'm thankful for is learning this ability and how to take a negative and turn it into something positive.
This as I see it....was a learned ability and side effect of swimming that I had no idea would become something of so much importance. Taking the same condition here ADHD....and the same symptoms and problems that arise from it.....it can literally go in two directions. Positive...or negative.
C has described this transformation himself and has found this power through his faith. I think the power of positive thinking can be argued as the source from something greater or outside yourself in every respect even by another name.
Apply what I just said to things like guilt or shame. Anything negative is going to send this kind of thing out of control. Unfortunately....you may have nothing to do with this or where it came from....but if you get bit by the negativity bug and start doing it too.....then you are contributing to your own demise in this case. You are guilty by association with your own negativity and it doesn't matter who started it.
That' also what I meant by "not going there" with my wife. Even if she does....I have learned how not to. If you can do this for yourself and summon your own positive energy and keep it there....you will become immune to anything your H does. You will also feel better about yourself, be more compassionate and not get enmeshed in an unhealthy way (or co-dependent way) with your H's negativity. (the losing yourself feeling) This is what is happening to you I think? Just realize at the very least....this totally sucks for him until he learns how to take control of it and deal with the demons inside his head. This could be a combination of things that includes his past and emotional family issues too. And there is an ADHD component to the anger outbursts and being able to control that too. To a lessor degree....you have less control of these things than on average. Again.....no excuse but a somewhat valid reason to find ways around it that is just another part of the ADHD.
It's also why he really needs to get some help in sorting all of this out because until he does....it can be overwhelming just trying to find out where one thing begins and another thing ends and where to start in the first place. A therapist can do this for you where you can't and I wouldn't have been able to do it without the same kind of help for sure.
I hope that made sense? If not...I can sight you some more examples?
J
J,
Submitted by sosickofit on
J,
Busy with Thxsgiving...glad to come back to these posts of wisdom :)
I understand exactly what you are saying all across the board! First, you mentioned what C said about finding strength in your faith. I have turned to my faith and spirituality more now than ever. I read a lot about the Jesuits. whose basic tenet "find God in everything" and approach to faith and religion is very relatable (for me). This has really helped me draw strength to put the pieces together so that IF I do decide to leave, I can. It isn't really complicated for me. I believe that you get back what you put out in the world. I believe that if you put bad energy out in the universe, you will get negativity/adversity back. I commend you for "taking it upon yourself to do something" and you most definitely should be proud of yourself. I am proud of you! It takes tremendous courage and strength to admit that something isn't right, then go about trying to figure out what to do! I wish that my partner could do this, but his "ego" is not strong enough. He cannot handle even the slightest possibility that he may not be as perfect as tries to project to the world (he knows he is not). He told the T and I the other day that he didn't think he has low self esteem, but he does. Maybe, he will prove me wrong and begin to believe in himself and find peace with himself how ever he may be in the world. This might be a better description, I am praying that he does!
Because of all of the neg energy that swirls around him, bad things are always happening to him. I know now that some of it is because of the ADHD; he is rushing (I always tell him that bad things happen when we rush, notice I said WE!) But because of his "chronic irritability", he has these negative exchanges and dramas nearly every single day of his life and the energy that swirls around him is rarely positive, except for the occasional high (but that changes on a dime). When he doesn't get what he wants, he just asserts his will, which alienates everyone around him.
He doesn't have many (any) friends and his only child lives in CA (we on the east coast), so I spend too much of my own energy trying not to get sucked into his negativity and drama du jour. Another problem is I am very independent and self sufficient which doesn't work so well with his personality because he always wants to do things that I can do myself, to make him feel competent and help his self esteem, so I then I have to affirm that he just did something for me or he doesn't think I am appreciative. See the vicious cycle here?!
I am not perfect, I will say this again as a full acknowledgement of my developmental areas and weaknesses. But, I know what they are; I have done the hard work, so as I think you or C said, I am further down the road. When we first met 7 years ago, this was one of the things I remember my partner saying to me..it was something he admired about me or wanted to try to emulate. He said when we first me that I had this amazing "presence" was the word he used. To me, it is energy or spirit. Positivity is my strength and is just present. From 12 years as a cancer survivor who was forced to really look at my life...how do I want to "be" in the world, this is easy for me.
I have been working for a while now to try to get my clinical social work license and to find a job as an oncology social worker. It isn't easy; you have to have certain amount of clinical experience and I had none. I took a clinical class at my graduate university, for three years I have volunteered on the infusion floor of a hospital cancer center, and I have kept sending out resumes, even for jobs I wasn't exactly qualified for. All I got were "no's". I kept telling myself "stay on this path, don't quit before the miracle happens, don't give up! Out of the blue just a few weeks ago, I got a call from a hospital near NYC to interview for a part time oncology social work position, EXACTLY what I wanted, I mean exactly, 20 hours per week, FULL benefits including health insurance. It was like divine intervention; I didn't apply for this job! I am close to finalizing the terms of my employment and I still don't know how they got my resume. Why did this happen? Because I believe in myself. This will go such a LONG way to given me some space, some more confidence to feel like I can make it on my own.
I simply don't think that it is possible for me to completely be my best self, to follow the principles I believe or to be at peace, given what you so perfectly describe here:
"Inability to problem solve, perfectionism, chronic irritation and lashing out spontaneously for no reason (apparently?), chronic or recurring depression,problems with remembering or memory distortions and chronic negatively seeping out all over the place are all clustered together into one thing in my mind.....negative energy. And it you can't get rid of it or find a way past it....it will persist and turn into a chronic inability to deal with it."
You have described it perfectly and I don't think I could have said it better, I have a chronic inability to deal with it. That about sums it up. I just thought of something: my negativity all this time came from the fact that there was no willingness on his part to acknowledge something was wrong and I felt like I was banging my head against a wall repeatedly. I was positive in my own space (in my head, with everyone else, but him) and I found tools for dealing, like creating a space for myself in the house, surrounding myself with amazing positive people at the cancer center, running etc. I have a positive life separate from him if that makes sense. When he is not around, I can live in my positive space, but as soon as he enters my space, even if he is in a good mood or positive, I anticipate complaining and negativity and even if I want it to be positive, it really isn't because I am squirming inside with anxiety at what may come. Harsh, I know, but true. Because he was just dx (or he only is just telling me now...I still suspect this has been an issue for his entire life, based on what his sister told me), I am going to go with just dx and try to recognize that this sucks for him. Peace is the goal!
Ok, weird. I am replying to
Submitted by sosickofit on
Ok, weird. I am replying to my own post..lol.
Here is a conversation we just had! Partner (P)
P: Where are you going?
Me: To turn the light off in the garage.
P: It will go off in a minute (he thinks it is the auto light from the electric garage door opener; he had just opened it)
Me: No, the florescent light is on (it can only be switched on; he didn't remember turning it on)
P: Telling me I left the light on isn't helping me.
I purposely didn't tell him that he left the light on. Did I really have to wait until he was out of sight and sneak and turn it off when he wasn't looking. Geez!
OMG!! This Is So Perfect!
Submitted by kellyj on
P: Where are you going? Taking this and running with it with my own thoughts here:) "Okay..this is a simple question....it shouldn't be that difficult! lol
Me: To turn the light off in the garage. If I am going to be truthful and honest which I have no reason to be other than? Specifically..."to the garage" if that's all you really want to know?????
P: It will go off in a minute (he thinks it is the auto light from the electric garage door opener; he had just opened it) Yes...he is assuming and you know that he is. This is good place to stop and think about what you might say in your response?
Me: No, the florescent light is on (it can only be switched on; he didn't remember turning it on) Again....you know that he is wrong or that he probably forgot about this? Do you need to say this to him or can you take that and just let it go?
P: Telling me I left the light on isn't helping me. See what I mean?
But why did he need to ask you where you are going? That is really the most important bit of information you could have that you still don't know? I'm saying you probably do know but from where I sit or anyone else hearing him.....I can only speculate but I also think I know too and I haven't ever met him?
This is the most important part about this entire exchange........WHY? If you know the answer....then you will know how to avoid it. If you don't know the answer....you will just keep wondering WHY?
When my wife does this same thing with me.....I go (either silently or sometimes I just say it)........errrrrrrrrrrrrrr. Why did you need to know where I was going in the first place!!! You're the one who asked? I was just going to turn off the light and you needed to know all of this? Really? WTF!!!! Now your mad at me and all I did was to simple answer you as best I could. Is there something missing here????? What's your malfunction Private Pyle?
This is really what you need to know I think? Once you do.....these things won't bother you as much and you can just right them off and apply them to the answer you now know.
If that makes sense? It doesn't mean this isn't annoying because it is. I have to fight this fight on a daily basis with my wife. She does this very thing almost daily and it's just not worth saying anything or trying to fight against it.
The answer is insecurity. If you understand how that must feel....then you can be compassionate to this even if you are not this way.
I want to come back to your last comment later and give it some time to think about something that I really think might help you see your way out of what you are experiencing. I need to do this when I have time to express my feelings better because I think I saw something that I can relate to in my own experience and I have to go back in time a little to a place that I'm no longer in to do this. It's too easy to forget when you are no longer there anymore?
J
That's interesting. I didn't
Submitted by sosickofit on
That's interesting. I didn't really think about the first question "where are you going?" If I responded with "why do you need to know where I was going?", it wouldn't have gone well. Do you think it is control? Is it that he can't bare for me to leave the room because he is left with his feelings of inadequacy and anxiety? You said you think your wife is insecure, is he that insecure? See, I can't relate to that level of insecurity. I know that sometimes he just wants me to be near him in hopes that I can help to settle him. Or, maybe he knew he was just outside and he realized that maybe there was something left in his wake?
Today is an interesting day. P was in an iffy mood this morning because when he woke up, the sun was not shining and it looked like rain. He had an unexpected day off today and he planned to drive his car (said sports car from the "incident"). In the past, I would engage him about it (when I saw his long face) and depending on my mood, call him out or validate him. He let's the weather affect his mood, (even in the summer, so I don't think it is SAD). This morning I said nothing. I was happy and spirited, even playing upbeat music. He saw that I was happy and I was glad he managed to pull himself out of his funk and go for his drive. He wanted me to go with him, but thankfully my son is home from college and 1) I am scared to get in the car with him 2) his mood was not ideal and I don't have any interest in getting in a fight because I know I won't have any patience for the long face and bad mood. It won't end well. In the past, I haven't always listened to my gut when it tells me to go a different direction, when I know something bad may happen. I am listening to my gut today, but this is no way to live.
Even though he went, he is texting me to tell me "I love you very much", then I get a heart emoji a little while later, then a little while later I got "Not letting the cloudy skies get me down". I have to respond back to or he will call me. If I don't answer or respond to his texts about anything, he waits like 2 minutes then calls and sometimes repeatedly. I know he just gets anxious, but I don't know exactly what happens or what he thinks I am doing if I don't respond. Maybe they are the same feelings he had when he asked me where I was going?
And, I think there is a cruel irony in expecting someone with ADHD to remember to take his medication. Sorry I know there are A LOT of ? in my posts. I am grateful for even a few answers; please don't feel like you have to respond to everything.
Okay...I Do Get It Now
Submitted by kellyj on
This is going to be a long response so bear with me. I can't see any other way to get you to see what this experience is like for him without using an example to illustrate this. This is exactly what my T told me long ago to help me see the same thing. I also believe as he told this to me...that this is not just something similar but more of the real reason behind it. This isn't just normally feeling insecure or being insecure as you know it. Like you said...not on that level.
So as not to lecture too much which I'm trying hard not to do (working on that one myself)....I just jump to the reason and then give the example. The reason is an insecure attachment if you understand attachment theory. It's not a disorder or anything on that level (hopefully?) but the result of it is what I recognize happening with your H.
Two examples of how and why this happens ....as my T explained it.
Example one.....Picture a baby or toddler when they are first learning how to walk and now adventure off on their own. They will walk a little ways away....then keep checking back in to see if your still going to be there. They want to explore...but they are not comfortable doing that until they are sure you won't leave or go anywhere. They will walk away....and then they will come back to check in. Each time you reassure them that it's Okay....they will go explore some more and get further away each time and maybe longer until they start to feel insecure and they need to come back and check in again for more reassurance. Physical touch, tone, validation....blah, blah. blah. If you have a child....you know all of this.
Now picture what would happen if that same toddler didn't get that validation? They left or went away to explore and would come back and you weren't there when you needed them! OMG....the world would come to an end for them and this experience would teach them to be careful....keep an eye on Mom and make sure she doesn't leave or get too far away or out of sight. And even if you were present....but you ignored this toddler each time they came back to check in and get validated.....you didn't do that either. You ignored them and kept going on about you business and you didn't re-up their confidence level which was waning at the time they needed to come back for a "fill up" so they could venture out further and explore some more. All a toddler knows is that they are helpless and they need Mon and or Dad to survive. It's like life and death if they screw up or you leave because on that level...it is. They 100% dependent on you for everything....YOU are their entire World.
If you think about this.....you may think this all stops then.....but really, this is what most people want to this day on some level? This is how we're designed and the first experience that we learn from day one or until we can take care of ourselves on our own. And most of don't even remember what that is like? The problem is....you don't remember those days.....but part of you still does. If you didn't get this resolved internally if you didn't get that back then....this stays with you and comes out again and again until you find a way to validate yourself and feel comfortable being alone or away from the main source of all your affection and love in the same way this was back then with your mother. (this is usually mother related by design if I remember this correctly?) The father part comes later but that's not as relevant to what I trying to say. If you know all of this already....sorry for belaboring this example any further. It might be useful for someone else. I had no clue myself until this was explained to me in the same way only to say.......my T was right on the money when it comes to this kind of insecurity.
Example #2....the other extreme. My T told me he has seen videos that were made during tests to see this in action. He said they had a mother and baby interacting with each other with the camera focused on just the baby's face. It showed a mother who was smothering her baby with affection ( picture a little girl playing with her doll) In the same example as before....the baby needs this kind of validation and reassurance...but now it's too much. The "little girl" playing with her doll is not paying attention to the real life baby and what is happening with it. My T said when he watched these videos of these test subjects babies faces....they would start to sqirm and look sideways..up..down...anywhere but at their mother who seemed oblivious to what their baby needed. They needed them to stop!! Eventually as my T described....these babies would just go limp and would disconnect.
In either case....the normal attachment process was interrupted and the baby did not learn that they were secure and felt like their needs were going to be met which kept getting confirmed to them everyday. The net result is an insecure attachment that never gets resolved.
My T also explained to me (which blew me away and I'm still thinking about this one to this day)...this process begins (in the current thinking) at precisely 42 minutes after you leave the womb. How they know that ( I might be a minute or two off in how I remember it)...is beyond me but I do believe that this came from a lot of research on this topic. First thing I thought of and my T brought this up too.....they use to grab babies out of their mothers arms only a few minutes after delivery and wisk them away and put them in a nursery. Oops. That was a gigantic blunder? Too this day...I don't think everyone knows this or might even agree but the findings are suggesting otherwise? But there are also many other reasons that this might happen for no fault of the mother or parents but an infant can't know that and it still will have the same effect.
All of this is to say....there are things that you have no way of knowing about yourself that contribute to this that you don't even remember yet....it is the source for this kind of insecurity.
If you already haven't reread what you said about your H and the car and all of his behavior with calling and repeatedly checking back in and apply this to either one of these scenarios.....example one seems to fit pretty well if you use it as a means to explain his behavior. All you feel on the inside of this from the person who is experiencing it feeling like there is something wrong and you can't seem to shake this insecure feeling that seems to have nothing to do with anything. If you believe any of this.....there is a reason and that's what it is?
Now take that and ADHD into the picture. Imagine every time you venture out into the world, you get shot down and rejected and never get acknowledged with anything more than annoyance and irritation? You aren't going to risk making many friends or reaching out and exploring until you find out why this keeps happening. To this extent.....it's probably been happening on some level before you can even remember? And when you meet someone and fall in love with them....you believe you have finally found that safe place you have been looking for? Someone who is going to validate you and keep on validating you as this internal pull or insecurity is telling you you need.
What you need is to get what you didn't get when you were a baby or as a young child and you are still trying to get something from someone else and there is no way they can give it to you. That's too much responsibility and it' not even possible. All you end up doing is becoming an enabler and you yourself feel like you are being smothered by it since it's co-dependent and not healthy.
And not to leave you guessing here in which one I am? I'm version two. Growing up.....I needed to be around my family and mother....but all I felt like at the time was getting out of Dodge as fast as I could. I had the means to do this so I had to regulate this myself instead of my Mom doing this for me like I should. She was very nervous, fearful and had a lot of insecurity herself. Preoccupied would be the perfect word. She was so preoccupied with her own shit....she was paying attention to what I needed at the time. Not as much or everything! But some....and only when I needed it. The result was me becoming more independent and self reliant too....but this is not always a good thing. Based on what I said.....it is a response and result of something not being right.
Now imagine example one and two getting together when they are adults and get married? How's that going to look? Both need the same thing but needing it the completely opposite direction in a diametrically opposed way. The independent or self sufficient person is going to feel put upon....and the dependent person is going to feel neglected and needy.....but both have the same insecure attachment to each other in a co-dependent dance of dysfunction.
It won't end well. In the past, I haven't always listened to my gut when it tells me to go a different direction, when I know something bad may happen. I am listening to my gut today, but this is no way to live.
Based on what I said.....is your gut to be trusted and which way do you think you need to go? Not what he says in this case (from the insecure place) but not necessarily what your gut says either....until you know what your gut is telling you and why...it may be lying to you to?
The part that you mentioned when you met you H and he said he wanted to emulate you is telling. I don't think he knows exactly why he feels this way...but if you go back and look at the two examples and put either one of you into either slot....this may explain that too.
If this sound right and you were just to believe me here....then I can tell you what he needs and how to make this stop. Love him and show him that.....validate him even if you don't think he needs it. It;s not him who needs validation...it his feeling and this is why and what they are saying. My needs aren't getting met and I'm afraid of you going away from me. I need to go out and not be around you and do things on my own...but my fears keep pulling me back into a pattern that I can't seem to shake?
I think this is why. If you take this an use it to tell you how to fix this....I think you might find that it is worth a try. Your smart....you can figure the rest out on your own. If you can't do this for him....that's another issue. If you love him and want to stay but for this to stop and go away....do the opposite of what your gut is saying but don't get sucked into his insecurity. Stay healthy and be interdependent instead. If you can do this and he can follow (to emulate you) you will be the one to fix the problem for the two of you.
He still needs therapy though....you can't do this alone without some help but.....it can be fixed for sure.
J
Coming Back Here Sosickofit
Submitted by kellyj on
A couple of things occurred to me after rereading what I said that I thought might be helpful to hear. More...just adding my own testimonials and some insights to what I just said. This is relevant to what you asked about "control." Yes....it is about control;...but again....not exactly how you might be referring to it?
The feeling you get with this kind of insecure feeling is all about your inability to control it or make it stop or go away. Without knowing any better....by default, you try and control it through your environment. That includes the people in it. This is entirely a subconscious response to it. I remember C referring to this as a "knee jerk" reaction and that is exactly what it is. The inability to override this reaction or response is what you don't have a means to control until you realize this is all coming from inside of you 100%. You cannot control this any other way and doing it by controlling others to avoid it or in trying to prevent it is exactly what you are experiencing yourself on the receiving end of it with your H. That's why it feels so slippery and intangible for you and you don't know exactly what do to or what not to do. (walking on egg shells) How you react to the same input is entirely your own even if others respond the same or differently. If you don't have this kind of insecurity yourself which would only come from the experience I described......you wouldn't have the same intensity or sensitivity to it and probably could process this yourself on your own without too much difficulty. That's one aspect that is difficult to fathom if you cannot relate with this feeling of not being able to control how you feel.
If you start from the beginning or at the source of this (the insecure or secure attachment)....you can trace where it might come from inside you. Once you do....you will begin to notice it too and start recognizing it for what it is. For myself at least.....once this happens....you will also see just where you are going wrong yourself based on these feelings alone. If you can isolate them and put them in the right place where they belong.....they won't be the ones effecting you ability to make the right decisions and choices which in the very essence of what I saying....is exactly what is happening. That "knee jerk" reaction is coming directly from these kind of unresolved feelings you are still carrying around with you.
I think a good way to see this in everyone to a lessor degree is to take a look at romantic comedies in movies for example. The Hollywood formula for this is always the same. Boy meets girl......boy and girl hate each other......boy and girl fall in ove with each other......boy and girl fall apart due to something stupid....boy and girl hate each other......boy and girl reconcile at the end (with all odds against them and no hope in sight)...boy and girl get married. The end. It's so predictable that you already know what is going to happen. There's a reason for this....it is a universal experience if these are the chain of events that happen and to some degree....it happens with everyone. The punch line or end of the story is always the same.......reconciliation. It's what you wait for and cheer for the entire time even when it look like it won't come and then finally at the end.....ahhhhhhh. It happens. What a great movie! Not always but I'm being factitious.
What they did was create this scenario and give you resolution all within and hour and a half and everyone watching can tell exactly what the people on the screen should be doing and why? Oh course they don't do this and everyone see's it. But in the end...it all worked out and you get the feeling you want from it.....resolution has been obtained. Yeah!!!
But what if they just broke up and that was the end of the movie? Using this tried and true formula.....no one would go watch them anymore. Ugh....that was a terrible movie! No resolution....just like in real life. That sucks....why would anyone want to watch that? Because....you watch it to get the resolution you don't have and this is universal to everyone! lol
Going back to what I was saying.....if there is an imbalance in this that comes from the feeling you get with an insecure attachment....it makes you feel insecure by definition even if it's the same one everyone has but.....you don't have control of it the same and it is larger or more out of scale than it should be otherwise. This is the feeling that never gets resolved and the one you are up against with another person who has it and they don't understand it or even realize it to begin with. You can't know that this is different than everyone else and you can't know that it is out of scale compared to others until you figure it out.
On a personal level....I can add a couple things to this. Like I said....by default....I am more independent and self reliant by nature but this is part of that insecure feeling. In the past I have not been the needy one in my relationships but....this can change and become just the opposite depending on who you are with. I'm saying this because this very thing happened to me with only one person and that was my ex wife. Without going into all the details of why....I will only say that she use to pride herself (as she said)....as being "independent" and "confident" but.....that's not how she really was and in many ways....was more needy and more dependent than I was. The net effect this had on me was me becoming more needy but....without intention I don't think on her part....she maneuvered or manipulated me into becoming that more as a means to make me more dependent or needy of her than I was being. Out of her own insecurity.....this is how she got what she wanted by manipulating me into feeling how I would not normally feel. I can tell you....it worked. This was a strange an unfamiliar place for me to be in and it was one I did not like at all. In retrospect now looking back....I can see all of this and why it happened. It only happened with her and no one else because of her own insecurity working it that way and I had not way of controlling myself or her under those conditions. It was co-dependent and it totally sucked!
Eventually..over time and with the help of my T all the way back then (15 years ago)....he helped me snap out of it I started to return to my self again. But now the problem still existed in another way which had more to do with how I still am by default. The other insecure attachment of feeling put upon or feeling like my ex wife was the needy one. This flip flop between the two of only caused one thing in the end. I moved and changed and my es wife did not. When I flipped back to how I was before....she wasn't getting from me what she felt she needed but that was all coming from and he own insecure attachment and was never getting resolved. Her solution.....find it somewhere else instead of trying to fix this within herself. I resolved mine.....and she was still trying to control it or find a way to do this through her environment or another person.
In my ex wife's case.....I already know that this won't work. She is still trying to do this the wrong way for herself and I would only hope that someday she figures this out too. I have no ill will towards her what so ever (an still love her but not romantically) and I can easily forgive her for doing the same thing I was doing and I can't hold it against her other than to recognize that she will never be happy until she does. She won't find what she is looking for in another person.
You've got to love yourself first or this won't work. No one else can love you in this way no matter what they do or how they do it. You will always end up feeling this nagging pull of needing something to fix this unresolved feeling that is inside you that makes you feel insecure. Just like watching a Hollywood romantic comedy where they break up and that's the end. What a horrible movie! I'll go find one where they get married at the end...that will be better?
( asking why?)
I don't know? It just feels better that's why? (you stupid ignoramus! lol )
J
The Testimonial That I Almost Forgot:)
Submitted by kellyj on
Fast forwarding here. I can tell you now my experience with all of this and how this has been playing out with my wife and I. Despite all my efforts to prevent this ahead of time and talk with my wife about my ADHD...not just a casual mention....but a real heads up and some warnings for her....I still found myself in the exact same place as before. This was not only frustrating....but it started hitting on all the usual suspects again in my own ability to manage the situation. But this insecurity issue was not coming into play like it did in the past. I addressed that before I was divorced years ago and now I was coming at all of this from a completely different state of mind.....a one that was much clearer headed and free from confusion. I had enough experience with it to recognize these things and not do what I had done in the past.....only to say.....it didn't change how I saw her however...and that was not in a loving and kind way. All I could see was the same familiar stuff and it was at the very least disappointing despite my effort otherwise. I had already had enough of this from my past and now I was not ready to accept anything less than a different kind of relationship than the one I had experienced back then.
This meant....if my wife could not do this or see her way out of it.....I was the one who needed to do this for the two of us which is all I wanted. When I stopped seeing her through the same eyes as I was see [ast that and see this beautiful wonderful little child that needed something so badly that she never got when she was young.....it told me exactly what I needed to do and what would give that to her. Instead of being angry or disappointed....I chose to try and see this insecure need in her as something to be valued, nurtured and cared for the same as it needed to be back when it should have been. This was a conscious choice to do this and no one was forcing me or manipulating me this time. I did it despite any of her own manipulative or coercive techniques she had learned the same way she got them....from someone doing this with her which is where this all started.(for her that is)
I can't begin to tell you the transformation that I witnessed each time I did this and what I see come out of her each time I do. Instead of irritation and angry....I see the absolute pure innocent joy and happiness that is the same one that that little child would have under the same conditions. With it comes the same love that one might expect from that same little child in return each time I do. It's overwhelming for me to see this and experience it sometimes. It's such a simple thing to do and the results are truly amazing. It really is a disproportionate response in those moments compared to other people or even myself...,but who gives a Fuck? If this is all she needs and it's so easy for me to step down and put myself in this frame of mind and see this for what it is.....if she wanted me to stand on head and bark like a dog and this would have the same effect...so be it. It's no skin off my nose and I'm pretty good with standing on my head anyway?
All kidding aside....I've witnessed a remarkable change in my wife the more i continue to feed this need and calm this insecure feeling in her no mater how I do it or what works.....only, that it works and I also get the benefits too. I can see it in her face and the lines that were there are disappearing and she looks 10 years younger in my eyes. I notice how beautiful her eyes are now where before they only looked angry. She smiles more....is easier to be around and is much more tolerant of me and the parts of my ADHD that effect her the most. I do everything I can to address her insecurities ahead of time and make sure I address anything I do or miss as soon as I can to keep reassuring her and acknowledging to her that I know and I do understand. I don't get defensive and I don't take exception too often only to say that there is a point or line I won't go with her and that is where her insecurities start dictating what I should or should not be doing.
When that happens....I need to strong and resist the temptation to fight back. I know each time I do this....I'm not fighting her.....I'm fighting her insecurity but she can't see her way out of this in the moment and only see's me standing in front of her.
J
I am amazed at your awareness
Submitted by sosickofit on
I am amazed at your awareness and envious (in a good way).
My P doesn't have the slightest interest J in trying to become more "enlightened". You speak so eloquently and your experiences and efforts seem so heartfelt. I know that this will never happen. He doesn't even want to accept something is wrong. Right after his dx, he purposely asked me some health questions: 1) how are your feet (I have chemo induced neuropathy and some crazy other red feet thing) 2) how is your jaw (I have been having some issues, prob neuropathic 3) how is your back (I was dx 2 weeks ago with osteoporosis in my lumbar spine, from chemo, meds). He wanted to point out all of the things that are wrong with me. The same way he wanted to point out how many medications I take and how I take more than him. I am a cancer survivor who 12 years later is having all kinds of long term sides effects and have to take medications to have some quality of life for FUCKS SAKE! J, I don't think I can do it. It's all wrong. We couldn't be more different and I deserve better than what I am getting right now!
My ex-H suffered from depression and low energy and after I recovered from my cancer treatments, I ended the marriage. I think I made a mistake J. He was a good man with a good heart. I don't think my head was straight and I didn't give him what he needed. It became too much work and I gave up. So, I hear what you are saying here; this is what I have to be willing to do. I am not sure and this may sound so harsh; I don't know if I have the energy or wherewithal to do what you did. It will be emotionally exhausting; I am already exhausted. I hear you here: " It meant....if my wife could not do this or see her way out of it.....I was the one who needed to do this for the two of us which is all I wanted. When I stopped seeing her through the same eyes as I was see [ast that and see this beautiful wonderful little child that needed something so badly that she never got when she was young.....it told me exactly what I needed to do and what would give that to her. Instead of being angry or disappointed....I chose to try and see this insecure need in her as something to be valued, nurtured and cared for the same as it needed to be back when it should have been."
In the end, it will be me who will have to do this for the two of us. Thank you!
I'm Glad I Was In the Ballpark?
Submitted by kellyj on
That was my intention at least.....just understanding the person you live with does help. It hard to know these thing until you know them but until you do you aren't really seeing that person as they really are but more what you think of them or what you want them to be.
I only wanted to say one thing after reading what you said. It appears to me the biggest problem you are facing with your H is that he's given up on himself and decided it will never be any different. That's a tough one to get someone to see anything different if this really is where he is. I wouldn't give up just yet until he tells you this himself though. I hate it when people do that and decide for me without giving me a chance.(actually more than one if I say I'm working on it if that's the case :)
If there was a deal breaker in my mind however....this might be the only one that I can think of? If that is what your gut is saying.....then everything else I've said already is kind of moot?
J
Well, if I am to believe that
Submitted by sosickofit on
Well, if I am to believe that he NEVER knew he had ADHD, then his seeming acceptance of it and the need for medication is a GIANT step forward. I think as I begin to move toward my goals and a life a bit more separate from him, only time will tell if he will continue to work on himself. He may, but I doubt it. He is not interested in emotional intelligence. For him, to have to acknowledge that something is "wrong" with him, is a sign of weakness. Thank you again! Only time will tell :)
Knowing is Not the Same
Submitted by kellyj on
as understanding. I can reply to you from my own experience. Having someone tell you you have ADHD is the very beginning of a very long and arduous journey of self discovery and literally reinventing yourself. Does he know that something is wrong? I guarantee it!! At his age....he knows it and that's all you know. Having someone put a name or label on it gets you no further in doing anything about or beginning to make the changes necessary than telling you had cancer. You probably knew very little about it then compared to what you know now. And you've probably done some things differently too since then. If your cancer was never discovered or in a hypothetical sense.....you lived in a time before people even knew about micro-organisms and disease....you would be left defenseless and powerless to overcome something that you too new that was happening to you.
What he knows is that he doesn't know how to make it stop. He knows as much as you do..(or even less?) in what he should do right or wrong. It's scary, it can be overwhelming and you don't have any answers...but you see the person that you love in so much pain and there is nothing it seems that does any good to fix it but you can't tell that person any more than you know.
Knowing what name to call it doesn't mean you understand it. To understand it in the way I'm talking about (as I do now compared to how I was at the first mention of it) is light years ahead of what I know now compared to then. And when it finally hits you and you do understand it.....you realize that having to go back and reinvent, explain and reexamine your entire life from start to finish to date.....is such a daunting task that it feels like you will never be able to do such a thing. To go back and keep going back to all your behavior (a lifetime of it) and realize that you were wrong for the entire time is not just admitting something is wrong.....
It's the equivalent to admitting that you as a person are wrong, your a mistake or an aberration of nature and that your worse fears of the unknown just got handed to you and confirmed that you were right about one thing.....your worse fears just came true.
Speaking from someone who has been there.....this isn't kind of sort of what it is like.....it's exactly what it is like.
Saying that admitting something is wrong to him as he see's himself is a sign of weakness is a patent answer that is generally true about men. On your behalf...it's a reasonable assumption to make which has some merit to it ( I think that is one part of it).
To what I'm saying however.....that ain't nothin compared to what I just described.
If you believe what I just said and apply it to your H.....the one bit of advise that I would heed as being one your shouldn't question and just do it anyway even if you don't fully understand all the reasons why is the same one that Dee50 gave to you in her response in this very thread....
Resist your maternal instincts!!!! Go against everything they are telling you and do not listen to them!!! They will steer you wrong every time and your H will not be able to tell you why or explain it to you. It's because he can't...but he knows how it affects him but can't give a tangible real reason or explanation for it other than to lie or make something up. Not because he's a liar or he's withholding the truth.....he just doesn't know yet what that is but he's trying is best to explain something he doesn't know or understand himself. If you are demanding that from him and you keep persisting for an answer he doesn't have....what would you do yourself in that case? And from the sound of it....he may be offering it anyway without any input from you. Either way....it's all coming from the same source.....fear.
If you went for help with your cancer and no one knew what it was including you.....what would you say? Could you tell the people who you need to help you what to do or how to cure you? Of course not. You would left to try and figure something out on your own. You and I both now that this would not work and you would be left feeling frightened and afraid of something bad happening to you which in that case....your worse fears would be realized.
If you were him in this case....his worse fears are that you will leave him if he doesn't do something quick....yet some part of him already knows that he will not be able to do that has required. Once you reach that place in your mind....all you can do is roll over and die figuratively speaking? And there you are about to die and you watch as your worse fears come true. I think that might be a case for feeling a bit insecure?
And I hope I didn't offend you by taking such a hard line with you but this is your reality too. Your sharing this one with him right now this very minute.... and I think it's only fair for you to see what you are up against too. Only you can decide if this is what you want to do or if you can even do it...but I think it's fair to say that this is your life currently?
Take that and use it or not but I wouldn't be saying any of this if it wasn't the truth. I have nothing to gain or lose either way and my only intention here in my response to you is to help you and your H move past where you are. I hope you do:)
J
J,
Submitted by sosickofit on
J,
I am not offended at all, but rather grateful to have your insight. At this point, I can take the reality and I appreciate your candor. I came on the site to get help and I never would have imagined the time that you have taken to help me through this. I hope you will hang out there for when it gets bumpy, as I know it will.
Here is a question for you: we have our T appt tomorrow morning. Do you have any advice about how to best use this time? Should I hang back and let him take the lead? Should I raise issues (when I do this, he gets very defensive)? The T seems to have some experience with kids who have ADHD. Should I ask her if she has worked with any couples where one has ADHD? I feel like we spend most of our time validating him and figuring out how to meet his needs. I am ok with this, but I want to be helpful to him and want to make the most of the process.
I understand what you are saying. I think he senses my strong desire to become more independent with efforts to find a job in my line of work and my recent job offer, (and it was a really good one), is very validating for me. It may turn out to make him even more insecure. I think he likes for me to be dependent on him. It feeds the co-dependent/attachment stuff you were talking about. Maybe in some way, this propelled him to address that he knew something was not right. Just so you know, I have never told him that something is wrong with him. I told you that and I even used quotes. I am not going to let him roll over and die. I am going to be supportive knowing that this was huge step for him and I am going to let time determine our path.
When I was undergoing cancer treatments, my oncologist made me promise not to make any hasty decisions about my marriage until I had some time to heal. I did wait, we tried therapy, we gave it all we had and in the end, it didn't work out. We have a good relationship now as co-parents to our amazing sons. I will do the same with my P. I will give him some time to work through this as I think you are correct that he is trying to find his way. I hope he can realize that action without cognition/understanding will not lead to long term peace. As you said, knowing is not understanding. To understand it to commit to the hard work and a strong desire to learn and grow. In this one critical piece, we are worlds apart.
L
L...I am Very Fortunate
Submitted by kellyj on
to have stumbled across a good therapist who has had a lot of experience working with patients with anxiety related issues (his focus in school) before he settled into couples therapy. And before I forget....thanks for the vote of confidence. Just so you know.....it has really helped me to be here and interact with everyone who has come here looking for help and sharing what I know. It gives me a chance to test myself and recall some things that I have learned and put them into a practical context which I wouldn't been able to do otherwise. I guess the phrase..."use it or lose it" applies doubly for me here since I get to use it with my wife and myself now. lol thanks again.
Anyway....I just wanted to finish saying about my experience with therapy....as I mentioned before going to see him with my ex wife for marriage counseling as a last effort to stay together.....we went through 2 different ones together and I went to see one by myself before that because I really was feeling like something was wrong on my end and I was searching for answers myself. This entire process before we found my T now (who I love)...was disheartening and frustrating before that happened. I was ready to throw in the towel because the degree of effectiveness (next to 0 for me or us together) and the rapport I had with these others varied greatly to semi Okay to one who was terrible. I couldn't believe how bad this guy was and he wasn't young or inexperienced. He had a "cookie cutter" kind of approach that it almost seemed he applied to everyone who walked into his office regardless of who you were or what your issue was. He caused more damage than he helped and I paid out of pocket for this kind of nonsense. It really pissed me off and I can't believe that this guy still had a practice??? Therapy in my mind (now) looking back....should be at least interactive to some degree based on each individuals needs at the time. At the time meaning....being able to match what they do to you depending and where you are in your own process of self discovery and what you know.
I'm certainly no expert on the subject of what to do or not do in therapy...but I can offer what I have found to be helpful myself.....or better possibly, what to look out for as a sign to continue looking for a different one? That might be a useful way to look at it.
To answer your question directly....my T that I love now pretty much takes control of the situation and is really good at stimulating your thought process. As I recall the first day my ex wife and I went in to see him.....my ex started out by listing all the complaints she had about me which I was ready to defend but watched how he instantly threw that back at here and started making her accountable for everything she said in a way that made me go....."hmmmmm....I like this guy." lol The others seemed too soft and were too afraid to take a stand and force you to look at yourself instead of approaching it more like what are you two doing wrong together. Not that this isn't useful but after all........you are two individual people....two separate humans beings and you aren't joined at the hip even though I have heard people use that phrase as if this is a good thing and something to strive for. Seeds of co-dependence? I think so. But as I look back and compare the same T now with a different person than my ex wife.....I notice how the sessions are different with her than they were with me and my ex wife for example. Not just because I knew him before...but where I am now in the process compared to my wife now. From the sound of it and what it seems like to you to....if one person is feeling more insecure than the other...the default will be to bring the other one up and kind of push the more secure one down a bit. If you can try and step back from what you want for yourself and see that this is the goal at first (to make the more insecure person feel comfortable and less insecure) you won't feel like a T is trying to take sides if it feels one sided ( or a little lop sided ). I've read some accounts from this kind of experience with a T on this forum and I suspect from my own experience with this....this is really what they are probably attempting to do.
If I had any advise to give someone who wants to get the most out of therapy....try and put your pointing finger in your pocket and keep it there. This approach will really waste a lot of time....it's what you are doing now anyway if you think about it. lol I am as guilty as anyone there but I have found this not to be a good use of time and money. Leave the adversarial stuff at home and try and approach this as a problem solving exercise with an open mind and ready to hear things that might not sound all that promising or even make you feel all that good at first until you have time to let things settle and think about it what is being said and why?
I think before that can happen....you need to establish a rapport based on trust. Thinking back now....I walked in feeling very insecure and not very hopeful and my T did a good job doing both of these things at first. Like I said....my ex walked in the door and immediately started pointing fingers and this came right back and smacked her in the face. If you picture yourself as the person who is more insecure or more needy.....this wouldn't make you feel very comfortable for the therapist to turn to you in this scenario and go " yeah......what do you have to say for yourself?"....to the one who is feeling lower in status in the relationship?
I think this is the hardest part to get past at first. Just because you are feeling your own issues and anger about your spouse in what you see as legitimate ways....or just because you have your own feelings of having no power or control....doesn't mean the person next to you is not feeling more or less this way than you? I think with guys in general......they aren't going to be saying this even if they are. That's the part you were referring to about not wanting to appear weak or admit this openly especially in front of you or women in general. That seems to be a more universal male/female expectation on both sides. I think for a guy in general....the less open they are about talking about these things and appearing "weak" (and are more insecure in reality)....the more they are going to put up a defense of false self confidence and play more the "macho" role "man of the house""king of the castle" type persona. Women have their own version of this too by the way...and part of that is the counter part to the male version of this. Either one of these bullshit roles will likely have the effect on the opposite partner in either making them more insecure or insight them to be "more" not "less" of the same. The problem with these personas for a person who has built their identity around them is that once you strip them of that....they will left feeling vulnerable and defenses. This was my ex wife for one and what I found with here. She couldn't step down and loose this air of false self confidence because if she did....she would be left having to look at herself and take responsibility for her actions or her part of our relationship.
So...this is all saying basically the same thing. Drop the defenses and walk in with an open mind and work on problem solving by focusing on what you can do yourself for your relationship instead of what you H (or partner can do for you). Good ole' John F Kennedy had the right idea....at least for therapy:)
And in light of what I was trying to convey to you before about having ADHD. It's really easy I think from the side of not having it to focus on the effect it has on you and not be very compassionate. Specifically what I mean by this...is not to feel sorry or sympathy....but not to forget that there is an ADHD "effect" on the person who has it and the core feature or this effect is insecurity on some level. Regardless of the what level of self esteem or self confidence you exude on the outside....I can't imagine anyone having it who doesn't feel self conscious or insecure to some degree in their personal relationship as a by product of this.
side note: this applies even more so to a Narc. The part I said about the core feature being insecurity and no matter how self confident they appear or exude on the outside. It's the same damn thing but it's now run amok in a way that makes them impossible to get through to and their insecurities. I think there is a self hatred component in there that makes this especially difficult.
If you think about what I said about a T's goal in making things more equal by bringing up one person and possibly bringing down another as a couple.....think about what is happening with you and your H? If the insecurity of the lessor partner with lower self esteem is pulling things into a co-dependent direction and now you are both enmeshed it.......a T's first step will be to try and take this over and manage that themselves so both people can relax and feel comfortable with each other again without this thing that is smothering the fire out of your relationship.
Or......you can walk in the door and start by saying...." I have some real issues or concerns about certain aspects of myself that are causing problems in our relationship and I want to find better ways to deal with them so they don't effect my H so much." Something like that? If you can do this despite the urge to go the other direction and make this about what your H does to cause you problems instead....this is just going to waste a lot of time and energy for your T to do the very same thing for you anyway. Ultimately.....this is where it will end up or if it doesn't.........it means your H might be more like my ex wife.....a person who refused to take responsibility. Either way....it's better to find that out earlier than later and this is the best way to find that out to.
But my impression I got from you after you confirmed more or less that your H looks like he's somewhat ready and willing but is feeling more insecure than you (and you're in kind of a co-dependent dance together).....then this applies even more so to you specifically. If he's more insecure than you (inside)....then by you starting first and approaching it this way..... and admitting your part of what you see about yourself as being problematic for your H.....the obvious next step for the other person when it's their turn would more likely positive than negative and less defensive don't you agree?
This would be my best advise. No mater what happens or how your H responds to this.....it will be the quickest way to see what you have to work with (or you don't?) and allow this to come out by doing this yourself at least to start with. For today or the next time perhaps.....I might try and step down as much as you can without compromising what you want or yourself and just to see where it goes. You don't have to play a part or role to do this....just be honest about the part about yourself that you think could stand some work and improvements in. The results might not be immediate or even with your H saying it to you directly.....but if his actions speak for themselves after a little while of this....it will be proof that it's working. That's what my experience tells me at least in getting there faster which is what you both want?
J
Wow...
Submitted by sosickofit on
Wow...
First, I want to just say how immensely grateful I am for all of your insights. Words cannot fully express my gratitude. You have been so helpful and I have been using a lot of your suggestions in my communication with my P and I have become far more aware of how he might perceive my words, so I have been more careful and mindful of how I say things. We have had several calm days; not without annoyance, but without conflict and fighting. I thank you for this!
I remember attachment theory from grad school. It didn't register to me that it could apply to my P, but of course it does. It all ties in...the overwhelming insecurity which may exist from when he was young and then the ADHD and feelings of ineptitude, needing constant and I mean constant validation. Like today, I could tell he was annoyed that I didn't run to the door to greet him when he got home. I was packing upstairs for a funeral I have to go to. When I didn't come down, he asked "what are you doing?". Because what I am doing is not more important than dropping what I am doing to "meet his needs". He says a lot to me and to the T, that he needs to feel "relevant and important".
I believe you may be right about example #1 and this is exactly how I am feeling "All you end up doing is becoming an enabler and you yourself feel like you are being smothered by it since it's co-dependent and not healthy." I always have to show him that I need him, but the reality is I don't and resent his co-dependent behavior. He has done it over the years with his daughter also and smartly for her, she moved 3,000 miles to the other side of the country. There is also a very controlling aspect; he won't acknowledge this, but he wants to orchestrate everything a certain way and believes and expects things to be a certain way. I just live life; there is no manipulation or calculation and 95% of the time he assigns some nefarious motivation to me, he is wrong.
I don't want or need the co-dependent dance of dysfunction (love that!). I definitely don't see myself in #1 and maybe there is some of me in #2. When I was 12, my older brother broke his neck in a pool accident. One week later, my other older brother got in a motorcycle accident and they were both in the hospital at the same time for weeks. I became responsible for my 6 year old sister and I was only 12. That became the end of my "happy" family. I grew up very quickly and looking back, I don't think that I got what I needed emotionally from my parents, and I became very independent and self reliant. To this day, I have friends, but not many and I keep my private life to myself for the most part. I think I feel disappointed too often by people and I am not trusting. I think this may have something to do with your #2. I moved out when I was 17 to go to college and I lived on my own in NYC when I was 21. I have learned not to rely on anyone but myself.
It is suffocating and I resent how much he depends on me. I told our T that it's all on me. Every emotion, every angry outburst, every activity, every phone call. We pretty spend all of our sessions discussing how to meet my partners needs. I hear you, I have been trying to give him feedback even when I cringe (only because it feels forced sometimes and it is exhausting because it feels like you are dealing with a child instead of an adult). Actually, my children don't require the attention and effort that I have to make with him. He made a great breakfast yesterday. I heaped the praise; he seemed to appreciate it.
Why turn the light off?
Submitted by Dee50 on
I haven't posted before, sosickof, but I've read enough here to know that you can only control your own reaction to him. You can't control his to you. Following that, let's just say that you, maybe, mother him a bit. And it, among other things, drives you crazy! You want a partner not a child right? So stop doing it! Stop mothering, stop picking up after him, stop going out to the garage. What is the worst that would have happened if you had simply 'not noticed' that the light had been left on? It wasn't you who did it right? What's a bulb running all night going to cost you? Truly....think about why you *had* to shut off that light even knowing that it might result in conflict. What would be so bad about a grown man getting some natural consequences to leaving a light on? These are the questions you need to ask every day, of yourself, if you truly wish to know how *you* might be contributing to this dynamic the two of you are stuck in now.
Notice how he reacted when you turned inward, disallowed his personal chaos, showed him a different way to be? He responded well enough I think. It even made him turn him around a bit, to text that he loved you. Now your reaction to that...? To wonder whether or not you should respond. Because you're still angry about so much and rightfully so...but now what? Cuz if you're so far passed texting "I love you too" than maybe you're done. Why continue? You're in a cycle. You see it, he doesn't. That much is clear. You're here because you care, also clear. Whether you like it or not, the onus is on you, at least for now. Read lots of blog posts and forum posts and do lots of thinking and decide if he has crossed all the lines, if he's worth this. Concentrate on yourself and your children no matter what your decision is and you'll be fine. Stop worrying about his lights, his projects, his hissy fits, his craziness and start worrying about your own. That's a very simplistic way to put it, I know, but the more you learn the more you'll understand what I mean. See yourself. Best wishes!
Thank you Dee50 for your
Submitted by sosickofit on
Thank you Dee50 for your response.
You were right about the light, I should have just left it. But, he has issues about money and waste. He told the T once that when he sees lights left on, there is a meter spinning in his head and all he sees is the money/cost and it creates anxiety for him, which makes no sense to me since he bought some frivolous, ridiculous sports car. I jus thought I was doing the right thing.
I have a question and no one has touched on this and since you brought up mothering him....my P is messy with everything except his sports car and he does next to nothing around the house. His eating habits have become pretty bad. I have to just say, he eats like a total pig. It wasn't like this in the beginning or it honestly may have been a deal breaker. I am sorry that sounds harsh, but it is true. I don't mean to sound like a snob, but I have really good table manners and so do my children. It has gotten to the point where I don't even enjoy eating with him because it is gross and he doesn't close his mouth so it is loud and disgusting. He doesn't use a knife, he uses his fingers, and he almost always gets food all on his clothing. He expects me since I do the laundry to get all the stains out. Sometimes I feel like it but sometimes I don't have time. If I don't get the stains out, he puts the shirts back in the laundry room, but does nothing. He leaves it for me. Also, when he goes running, he throws his dirty, sweaty clothing in the washing machine, but doesn't turn it on! So, what do I do with that? Last night, we were eating crab legs and he was sucking the crab out of the shell. I asked him if that was needed, he snapped and told me to just let him eat however he wants. If he eats an apple, I swear, I leave the room. My kids don't want to eat with him either. It may seem trivial, but it is hard to overlook. He says he is going to do more around the house, but he never does. He railed on me a couple of weeks ago when he was having a meltdown and told me that I purposely don't clean the toilets, I purposely don't clean the duvet cover or his daughter's bathroom or room. I don't have a cleaning lady and I live in a 4500 sq foot house. I have a job and a lot of responsibilities, but he is expecting me to be his mother. He admits she did everything for him. He has ADHD. He won't be able to do his own laundry. He can barely manage day to day as it is. He basically will find the couple of things out of a million that I didn't do and he will shit on me about that (glass half empty.) Sorry, didn't mean to go off on this tangent health, but some advice would be great.
I think since his dx, I feel I may have been able to truly step out of the cycle. I don't want to be bitter and angry and despite the overwhelming adversity I have had to experience, I truly feel gratitude everyday. I think I have allowed myself to be taken over by his needs and I was beginning to lose myself and I saw this very clearly. I found a great T who helped me realize that my focus needed to be back on myself, not in a selfish way, but in a really healthy way. I just got an amazing job in oncology, so I am super excited. It will be interesting to see how he responds to my becoming even more self reliant and independent, but this has been my goal so I can get out if I choose to. I had to implore myself to disconnect to some extent.
When I see the "I love you" text messages, I sometimes feel his neediness and insecurity. There has been so much resentment, anger and really horrible and abusive incidents with him, I am not sure that I feel the same about him as I did in the beginning. I don't think I love him the same way. I don't know if I can get this back even if I know now why he behaved the way he did. I can't forget the choking and the throwing things at me and the terrible names he called me and the fear, the absolute and total fear I have, not that he would do something rash that would cause me irreparable harm, but my fear at what this relationship is ultimately doing to my health. I have been in a pattern of stress and conflict for 5 solid years. Since I have been with this man, I have had to take anti-anxiety because my BP was too high and then I had to start on BP medicine. My health history is complicated and because of the cancer, I have had a lot of subsequent health issues. I know I can't blame him because I chose to react a certain way to him, but geez, is it worth it? Even if the T can help us, is it worth it? I don't believe he has the interest, insight or strength to truly get at the heart of his issues. You are right, I cannot control this.
Why turn the light off?
Submitted by Dee50 on
I haven't posted before, sosickof, but I've read enough here to know that you can only control your own reaction to him. You can't control his to you. Following that, let's just say that you, maybe, mother him a bit. And it, among other things, drives you crazy! You want a partner not a child right? So stop doing it! Stop mothering, stop picking up after him, stop going out to the garage. What is the worst that would have happened if you had simply 'not noticed' that the light had been left on? It wasn't you who did it right? What's a bulb running all night going to cost you? Truly....think about why you *had* to shut off that light even knowing that it might result in conflict. What would be so bad about a grown man getting some natural consequences to leaving a light on? These are the questions you need to ask every day, of yourself, if you truly wish to know how *you* might be contributing to this dynamic the two of you are stuck in now.
Notice how he reacted when you turned inward, disallowed his personal chaos, showed him a different way to be? He responded well enough I think. It even made him turn him around a bit, to text that he loved you. Now your reaction to that...? To wonder whether or not you should respond. Because you're still angry about so much and rightfully so...but now what? Cuz if you're so far passed texting "I love you too" than maybe you're done. Why continue? You're in a cycle. You see it, he doesn't. That much is clear. You're here because you care, also clear. Whether you like it or not, the onus is on you, at least for now. Read lots of blog posts and forum posts and do lots of thinking and decide if he has crossed all the lines, if he's worth this. Concentrate on yourself and your children no matter what your decision is and you'll be fine. Stop worrying about his lights, his projects, his hissy fits, his craziness and start worrying about your own. That's a very simplistic way to put it, I know, but the more you learn the more you'll understand what I mean. See yourself. Best wishes!