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Hey Standing
Submitted by kellyj on
I wanted to approach you about something you said earlier......in respects to your councilor and his advise about an exit plan. This may be getting too personal so if it is just say so......and/or.....I don't want to make any assumptions that you have made up your mind one way or the other in exactly what your next steps will be.....
But this is in respects to leaving your husband and him being a Narc.....(if that's the plan) and in context to what your councilor said in reference as a means of protecting yourself.....safety. The details of that (are not so important) to what I wanted to say but more of a general rule as applied to a real full blown Narc ( or close enough) and what they are apt to do if you leave or say your going to leave. I'm saying this from experience and a recent one for me. You'll understand what I mean so I will just tell you the story.
I actually just quit my job of over 22 years with the same employer. I had a lot of reasons to do this but they are all good ones and I made this decisions over a long period of time. But the part of interest that pertains to you is that my former employer is also a real Narcissist and I immediately related to the story of your husband in respect to the things you said about employees leaving him and him having no clue ( or taking any responsibility) for this fact. I've watched how the company I worked for went from 14 employees down to 3 (including me while I was still there) which makes it two now ( aside from his family; wife and two daughters) who also work there. Over the years I watched them go one by one and watched how he reacted and then heard his comments ( his version of why they left).....even though I knew ( because they told me directly) why they did.......and how completely insane his rationalizations were after the fact.
And in case you were wondering.....yes....it was so ironic that I ended up working for someone like this for so long in light of my history. There's a lot to say there but in the end......it was a blessing for me. In a real way I got a chance to sit back and watch my past.....by working with a Narc and his family.....and see myself in the same picture without actually having to be in it. I learned so much from this in that respects which had nothing to do with my job and work......maybe just a side bonus. lol The only reason I was able to stay there so long is the fact that my job required a certain amount of separation and autonomy from him in that there was not a lot of overlap in daily duties and dealing with him one on one that was enough for me to be there and be as happy as one could be at any job one would have. Work is work........everyone has to do it in one form or another...that just life. No problem there....I'm self motivated in that respect.
But back to what I wanted to say to you.......The one thing that was an absolute consistency in everyone who quit is that they immediately went on his shit list. They all were bad people, terrible workers, probably was stealing from him ( or actually was stealing from him by his out and out accusations after they left), they let him down. bla bla bla......on and on. And none of it was true. Some left for more money else where....some left because they found better positions...or some left because they were tired of him and couldn't stand him anymore ( or the disrespectful treatment he doled out).
Bottom line is they left ( including me) to go do something better or to better themselves and they told him directly that that was why they were quitting. None of that apparently made it past his eardrums and into his brain.....that part went straight out the window on the other side of his head in which he proceeded to fill in the blanks on his own with a version that was palatable to him no matter how crazy it sounded from the outside listening to it.
And I knew this before I quit. I knew exactly what was going to happen and exactly what he would do so I planned my exit strategy according.....for my best interest not his of course.
Bottom line.......I left on his day off while he wasn't there. I gave no notice ( which sounds really bad form for someone who has worked there for as long as I did).....and I pulled one of his daughters aside and did my quitting through her. I picked her specifically because I knew and saw that she was in the same place.....you and I have been before ( you now currently).....and she knew and understood exactly of why I left the way I did without even having to explain it to her.
As the two of us walked out of the building together....she gave me a big hug and wished me well.....I reciprocated the same and said to her " you know.....he is going to hate me forever for leaving this way.....for not giving him the chance to have the last word and do his "download of projection and shame" on to me." She said " yeah, no reason for that....you've heard it all before." I replied " exactly, why would I possibly want to put myself in a position to let him do that...how could that possibly serve me in any way. And yes.....i've heard it all before many times......why would I want to hear it again now? That's why I'm leaving like this.....it's the best for everyone except for him of course" We both smiled in agreement I left calmly, peaceably without any drama or incident.
My councilor said to me " I think you engineered that one pretty well." And he was right.....to leave someone like that unscathed takes some planning and engineering to do it even if from the outside from a more reasonable stand point it may seem disrespectful.
FYI; I immediately picked up on your hubby opening your coffee ...it is very telling and to be somewhat expected. That is the part you already know and how you will be able to predict almost exactly what he will do and how he will react if you decide to leave.....which in itself is one very good reason to do so.
Just to do it well and get the help you said you are getting. I fully concur!
J
Full Blown
Submitted by Standing on
HaHa... I love that expression... it is so descriptive, in so many ways!
Yes, my dear J, he is full-blown Narcissistic Personality Disordered and also fully-bloomed ADD.
Before I go down that path, I must express my heartfelt Congratulations and Kudos for your exit from that job!! Even with all of the personality issues in the picture, it's a big step to leave something to which you've devoted so many hours and years. The fact that you made your move gracefully and - no easy trick - sans drama = you are a SuperHero in my book, J :) That requires great planning, finesse, and wisdom, indeed!
In this case, I have come to view the attention deficit as my husband's saving grace. It truly seems to spare those of us who must be near him from the worst of what you and I both know are typical narcissistic reactions. He simply flutters off to his next grandiose self-expression or scheme, rather than waste his efforts on any "loser" who is no longer willing to serve him.
By the way, do you recall the categories of Cerebral Narcissist and Somatic Narcissist? Until now, I was most familiar with the Cerebral variety. This particular situation seems to have alot more emphasis on the somatic... think neurotic, hyper-sensitive... and although he does play head games, for the purpose of manipulation, does not seem to have the focus/presence of mind to plot someone's demise in the typically N way. Besides all that, I go back to the info mentioned in another post about Compensatory N, which is just as pervasive as any type, but not necessarily malignant. And of course, I am no expert, by any means, only someone who's been keen to figure out the problem and understand how to best approach it. I can share with you what my counselor has told me. Even a Narcissist can behave when incarcerated in a prison camp. The fact is that, for now, he reaps more benefit by playing along than he would by retaliating. As long as I am doing my job (and his, as well, incidentally) at work, this will continue. As far as how long I will be able to stand it, that remains to be seen. So far, the simple fact that I am getting decent rest at night is helping immensely!
Today he picked up the separation papers from my lawyer's office. I offered him that option, as long as he attended to it Today!, rather than putting him through the indignity of being served. Does he appreciate that? Only God knows, but pick them up, he did. Mission accomplished. This is how I am handling each step of the process, spoon-feeding it, but with a non negotiable Yes, you WILL eat your spinach mindset. I am a mom of 4, so I do remember how to put that on. Also, the "Or Else" part of this has to be meaningful and I am fortunate enough to have a couple of those in my pocket, between work and home. So far, so good.
I don't have a fully mapped out plan though, J. Mainly, I want to get through this filing and hearing and formalizing of legal separation and then take stock of the facts, carefully staying out of wishful thinking and firmly positioned in Reality. Reality is, we both need jobs and we both need a roof over our heads. He can choose to behave well enough to allow that to continue for now or he can choose to act out in baddd ways and go find himself a new employee and a new roof. At some point, I'll have to address my own choice, but today is not that day.
Thanks for the opportunity to chat it out, J! I really appreciate that you "get" the opening-my-coffee thing. Most people would think that is a petty thing to mention, but it's so indicative of an entire pathology. I can't tell you how many packages and presents and things of mine he has torn into, simply to fondle the contents, satisfy his urgent DEMAND to experience whatever it is, and then toss it aside.
And I agree with your counselor! You really did engineer your departure amazingly well!!
There You Go.....
Submitted by kellyj on
Getting over my head. lol Actually I have read and looked up all the versions of Narcissism long ago when I first realized the facts about my father and family situation but it's been a while since I've looked this stuff up. At the time I was focused mainly on my father and related people in my life in trying to find answers and explanations to all of these behaviors. What's actually funny ( I'm laughing at least ) is how when I started to realize this about my former employer at the same time and I was thinking.....sweet Jesus....give me a break! ha ha
And his version like my fathers......more of the sociopathic malevolent...oops... I mean malignant kind of vindictive Napoleonic Tyrant version ( what ever category that is??)....uber controlling goose steppers. That would have summed up mein Fuhrer....I mean my father. I'm really only teasing here. ha
But I wasn't kidding when I looked up Compensatory N and went uh oh! I really could see some of these highlights in myself but like you said that it's insecure behavior to a whole 'nother level. But I quickly could see some really interesting features in that category that really didn't fit me at all....one of them being Hypochondria and it was listed again as associated disorders. If you knew me you would laugh at the thought of me being a Hypochondriac.....I'm about as far from that as anyone could possibly get. I'm also not an excessive worrier or get anxious about a lot of things even though I have my short list that will get me going for sure.
But I realized when I later why the Compensatory N rang a cord with me and I thought about a person I know that really fits this to a T thinking..... a ha....that explains it!
And what you said about the ADD...(the inattentive type?) in your husband........that would certainly be different than the type of Narc I've experienced (as I said above). I can imagine that would be a very different ( although equally frustrating ) version.
The thing about ADHD/ADD.....I think you do get hit with a lot of criticism and feeling your the odd man out at an early age.....I can totally see how this could manifest itself in all kinds of maladapted strategies and the things listed under Compensatory N would certainly be one of them.
I'll admit seeing this behavior in myself when I was young for sure.....early adolescence and teens...as I was quite insecure about some of my ADHD related issues back then especially because they were being pointed out to me and feeling different because of it.
Seriously....I'm glad your husband doesn't sound like the variety I'm used to ( or now was....yay!).....far less menacing I think. That's good to hear!
And thanks so much for the supporting comments. I really am so relieved to be FREE!!! of all of that. It's like some really grating noise that you get used to over time and when it's gone suddenly you go.....whew! wow...that was really annoying!
J
Menacing, yes; malignant, no.
Submitted by Standing on
Hey, J... actually, he can put on a pretty good show of being menacing, and used to terrify the daylights out of me. I was so gullible and sensitive... the ideal pushover. Through counseling (and reading, including here at this forum), I have learned some new skills and developed much greater confidence, so now I don't back down, clam up, and get to feeling wounded so readily. Apparently, he has noticed the change and no longer tries that routine on me.. at least not to his previous extent. If it still worked, I'm pretty sure he would not have stopped. I am relieved, but still find that disconcerting. He really is a chameleon.
So yeah, menacing... and definitely Napoleonic when he puts on that show of strutting around like a tyrant... but it all seems hollow and meaningless to me now. Like a toothless lion. As you said... allll kinds of maladaptive strategies. As much as I don't have a long-range plan, I can't help but think that if it were possible to control his spending, I could maybe handle the rest (if he would stay in counseling and if he would try new meds). As I was saying to Rosered, I sure would like to know what is the source of that desperate need to buy stuff. And really, it's so complicated by all the mental gymnastics and rationalizations he employs to avoid looking at the truth... I doubt whether that can ever be effectively managed.
And I hear you about being free of that grating noise! I am definitely not done thoroughly enjoying my newfound peace and quiet yet. What could become more of a challenge is ... if i get to thinking once again that I can handle this, as is. He wants to know how long this is going to take. I said, we need to see how it goes. How What goes? Counseling weekly, consistency in behavior... I saw his eyes glaze over. He wants a quick fix. There is none. I don't know whether it's even possible, with time.
This isn't exactly the same
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
This isn't exactly the same thing, but my husband has said, more than once, "I don't have any money!" This is a guy who has a substantial pension from his last good job (from which he was laid off in the late 1990s) and more than $100,000 in IRAs. It's frustrating to me because he doesn't think he has enough but he also has made no effort to make more money.
Anxiety? Fear?
Submitted by Standing on
Rosered, thank you for sharing that. I would love to know what is the thinking behind some of these things!
Maybe it's another variation of hoarding, more than a matter of being miserly? Or a way of holding on to the "good old days"? Or simply a matter of - out of sight/out of mind? I surely don't know.
Although I've read about alot of people with add who have financial issues, there are also some members here, J for one, who've said that this is not a problem for them. Perhaps they don't have as much trouble with impulse control? From what I've experienced, my husband seems to be equally troubled by inattentiveness and lack of impulse control. He'll order parts for the business and if they take "too long" to arrive, it's like he'll go somewhere else and order more... and pretty soon we have wayyy more stuff than needed and wayyy less money. It's very difficult and no matter how many times it's been addressed, never changes for long. Any self-restraint he applies is soon undone in a flash by one of his sprees.
I don't think my husband's
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
I don't think my husband's behavior and attitudes around money have anything to do with ADHD. I think they are related to how he was raised (by his father) and how he lives now (with his father). They both are miserly and both have a sense of entitlement. My father-in-law thinks he should get caregiving help for free, despite the fact that his and my mother-in-law's income is higher than average for elderly people. They definitely do not live in poverty. My husband proposed that my daughter not pay off her student loans, and he did not want to report as income the money he is paid by his dad for providing care to his dad and mom. I'm frugal with myself but try to help other people when I can.
Isn;t there a song about this!
Submitted by c ur self on
Add effects my wife like this...I've watched her battle herself (she usually loses:))...It's not a matter of knowing what is right, she just can't? or want? see far enough down the road to see the end results of her actions.
She loves to go to the large city about 60 miles down the interstate, and shop...A while back I said, hey I just bought groceries, so make a list, and also see how much, if any, room is left for refrigerated items....So what does she do? Hits all her favorite places, comes home and ends up having put a load of stuff over in her empty house's frig...At least that place served one purpose lol..For her it's just fun to shop, and there is no sense in cluttering that up with reality! Like the small fact there isn't anywhere to put it, and the fact that there is no way that the two of us will eat it all...So, it's wasted!...Why think that way husband?..You're spoiling my fun...LOL
If you want to know my wife...Utube Brad Paisley's song "She's Everything"....That's my girl....
She's everything
Submitted by Standing on
Fluffyheaded...LOL
Submitted by c ur self on
Well the lyrics of the song describe my wife a lot, plus, I don't listen to much Country music...But, this is just a great song, to me:)....I wouldn't say my wife is Fluffyheaded...She is quiet genuine...lol...She is just so much like these lyrics...She loves Chocolate, Always wears Crosses around her neck, church girl on Sunday, It doesn't total alarm me if she lets out a cuss word cause she has to get up on Monday, and definitely a fighter when she's mad! and a sweet lover when she's loving....Plus all the rest he said....
I will tell you a little story about one of our first dates....We had our first lunch date October 15th, 2007. So before I new her she had owned at least one horse off and on for the past 20 years are so, she has always had a horse. She has girl friend who she rides with from to time...She tried to get me to wear a cowboy hat....lol...not really for me...I wear my Alabama ball cap, or nothing. Anyway, she ask me to go riding with her, so I did....She saddled up her horse, and road him out into the gravel road by the barn and rode down the road and back...Her horse, kind of a spirited walking horse...She ask me if I wanted to ride, and was warning me to be careful. I think I had told her I rode a little when I was a kid....Anyway she got off and took the reins, and jumped from the ground into the saddle, and cantered off down the road....When I turned him around...I turned him loose. lol....I flew up the road, slide to stop and she was standing there with her mouth open....And I never will forget what she said: "You just turned me on" I'm thinking OK, that works for me. :)
Here's another interesting fact....We had an outside wedding in some castle like ruin's with columns'...When they started playing here comes the bride...She rode up on a black horse in beautiful white dress, barefooted. (my idea). It was quiet the wedding. Being 50 and a widower, I just wanted the small family or court house route...But, she had never been married, and she loved her wedding, lot's of picture's...So, I didn't want her not have it like she wanted it...Now if we can just do it justice...Oh Praise the lord!!!
Sorry to be so sentimental and boring tonight...
edit: I forgot to tell you the looking back comment is so true...and the whoa!! Mannn!! is hilarious...I had to add this on edit...didn't want you to think I wasn't looking back..;)
Not boring!
Submitted by Standing on
c ur self, I think maybe I am just so leery of getting sentimental myself, because then I may not be able to hold the line, as I must. And lol... yes, indeed, you do look back :)
Reading this again this morning, your wife sounds so much like my former coworker, the one I described a while back to J. Yes! Crosses always on her neck, loves chocolate, a spitfire when riled, hard-working, bright, loyal, and genuine as granite. I always enjoyed and appreciated that girl, but I couldn't have her as a roomie!
Maladaptive coping strategies are the enemy here, I think, not the add or even the narcissism. Basically, I am requiring my husband to cope with a scenario from which he would generally be able to escape or against which he would rage. Then his right-hand-man left the business on Saturday, exasperated and done. I can feel him floundering. I must not rescue him. In the past, I would get lonely and feel so desperate to try to connect with him that I would give in and try once again to join in with his fantasy, where all is well. Reading Henry Cloud's book, Never Go Back, is helping with that. So is his book Necessary Endings. I keep picking up both of them for a reality check. This is his opportunity to grow beyond the coping strategies that he's used for nearly 50 years. But he is still texting his long-distance enabler pal, hundreds of times a day. When the truth begins to knock at the door, he launches a texting flurry. Texting this guy seems to act like a video game to his brain, keeping him in that continuous loop of denial. Definitely prevents him from accomplishing any actual work. And when I asked what time is his counseling appointment this week, he sounds disgusted, says he's not sure, ___:30, probably. In a tone that oozes resentment. Bad Mommy. That's the label against which I am battling.
Both your first date and your wedding are like pages out of a storybook to me, c ur self :) I can see how our mates can offer us the other side of our selves and bring us to fullness. No one has ever offered me a chance to live out my fantasy, whatever that is lol. I've been used to complement others, all of my life. I'm not complaining, but I do see it now,,,, the life I have lived is not Godly or productive in any sense, to the extent that it has only served to try to get another human being to "love" me. My counselor tells me that I've had so much patience and forebearance. Hah... I doubt that. I think that I was just really, really afraid and stuck. You don't sound a bit of either, afraid or stuck. Maybe your separation experience resolved a lot of that. Was it difficult to make the decision to end the separation? Did you have requirements for your spouse before you would come back together again?
Tools in the Tool Box...
Submitted by kellyj on
If you only got one tool in the tool box......and it's a hammer......well, you get the picture. Survival strategies force you too learn to make tools even when there aren't any around. I've been called McGiver by lots of friends. I always find a way but there is a down side. People like to borrow tools and not return them....especially when they don't have that tool of their own. Pretty soon.....neither do you.
J
Standing against all odds....One day at a time!
Submitted by c ur self on
You've said some intriguing things here, and asked some pertinent questions.
(but I couldn't have her as a roomie!) LOL,,,some people are fun and entertaining to be around for a while. But when you start trying to coexist under the same roof, they will cause your vocabulary to expand: Maladaptive, Intrusive, obtrusive...etc...;)
(I am requiring my husband to cope with a scenario) I do pray he follows through with your request. I know you see it as a very positive step for you both. For the record, I do also.
(I've been used to complement others, all of my life. I'm not complaining, but I do see it now,,,, the life I have lived is not Godly or productive in any sense, to the extent that it has only served to try to get another human being to "love" me. ) I think God designed us to complement each other, I think the scripture supports it. But I like your statement here because heaven knows it hits home with me. I have spent so many wasted year's (term wasted here could mean not at peace, maybe not maturing, or stunted.) with my focus on the the wrong lover. I had so many man made insecurities, that my expectations of what love should look, and the emptiness I thought it should be filling. Created an impossibility for my wives.
(My counselor tells me that I've had so much patience and forbearance. Hah...) Me too, but, I know the deep down reality, I was only doing what I could, or felt I had to, to meet the needs for survival. But, I never quit placing expectations on others to match my performance, and give their lives for my needs....Oh, this is convicting!...Thankfully, The heavenly Father had placed some good influences in my life.
(You don't sound a bit of either, afraid or stuck. Maybe your separation experience resolved a lot of that. Was it difficult to make the decision to end the separation? Did you have requirements for your spouse before you would come back together again?) Afraid and stuck? My biggest fear is of c ur self, because I can't trust him one inch...I've read right over scripture's for years that told me who I am with out Jesus's presents in my life leading me. Always seeking some self-righteous attempt to justify my actions, in order to save my life. But, because of his great mercy, and love to me...I'm coming to understand, that only when I experience peace in death; can I ever truly experience peace in this life...And that's not of myself.
It wasn't to difficult for me to end the separation; because of a few reasons....One is; God had so delivered me of my anger and bitterness, he allowed me to eventually (probably 6 months in) quit focusing on her, and start looking into my own insecure heart. Because of my faith I felt he had equipped me with the tool of self-awareness. (His spirit) so transforming my mind into one that was capable of more understanding, and Grace...All the stuff, I want everyday:). And another reason is Jesus said marriage commitments are until death, and that the reason a divorce happens is because of hard hearts.
Requirements? We have boundaries...
When I ended the counseling sessions....I did because after 11 months, I was at peace, and God had allowed me to see more clearly. I could see she had changed some also...But, Add, was still in control of her life....I think most of my wife's suffering has stemmed from not feeling accepted...She has always had to live with herself, so she so desires to be accepted just like she is, because she feels so hopelessly tied to ADD and it's effects... So, I try to not focus on behaviors spawned by her Add...If they are self destructive, I can pray. If they are confrontational, I can depend of Jesus for the strength to walk away. I just want to spend out my life, being a vessel, so she can have a husband, who she can depend on to love her...Even when she thinks I'm mean, because I've made a decision to not enable her;) We will always have our difficulties because of our lack of commonality. But, just because we want get on the same page in timeliness, sleep habits, and other things....Doesn't mean we can't get our love right :)
Back to the Narcissism Thing Standing
Submitted by kellyj on
My ex boss.....(how nice it is to say that ha)....had real issues with impatience. Couldn't stand for a moment to feel any uncomfortable feelings AT ALL! He was so impatient and that's exactly why. Everyone in the company could see it just as that except for him. He would walk around muttering...".it's not right , it's not right." That was always his explanation for everything that didn't fit his mood or temperament. his entitlement or self righteousness. Always...".it's not right." Didn't matter even if it was the law and he was reading it in front of his face....."it's not right."
It's not right was....I don't like it and it makes me uncomfortable ( some emotion you name it). He simply could not handle anything that he had to feel and when this happened he became extremely impatient. " I need money! Do something!" And if it didn't happen he became angry.
Instant gratification at all times...always in the moment and it changed daily with his moods. It really was like a very young child (and rather spoiled)....I want, I need, gimme gimme. Uppy Mommy! And if he didn't get it......."it's not right!"
It was just incredible this correlation. Like a spoiled out of control child who is always used to getting what he wanted and if he didn't he started acting out.....menacing and projectile vomiting himself all over the place in a panic....and he's your boss! iee yiee yiee!
Everyone could see this except for him.....he couldn't stand to feel any discomfort or disquieting emotions period. Just like an infant does when he needs something and feels uncomfortable and begins to cry to tell you he/she is uncomfortable. .... and won't stop until you tend to him/her.
Truly amazing.
I cannot speak for anyone else with ADHD but this is not part of mine. I don't get impatient with traffic. or lines or waiting for things and or gratification. I don't like waiting for these things any better than anyone else but I don't get easily upset over them either. It takes a lot of stress and frustration to get me to that point and even then...I come down pretty fast.
I mostly lose my patience with people who are impatient....that is a problem of mine. lol
J
I'm guilty of this from time to time with my wife....
Submitted by c ur self on
"I don't have any money!"
It's my defense for her life style of " What can you do for me now?" It's short for: I am on a budget, because you put little to nothing into this household and I'm not financing your next trip, or fun adventure! :) Just saying I have no money, makes it easier for her to follow. Also, the truth reeks of responsibility and accountability....And that just pisses people off who always has an excuse for not being responsible.
My husband's "I don't have
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
My husband's "I don't have any money" is different than yours, c ur self. My husband has not provided any financial support for me for at least three years. He contributes to our daughters' expenses and he still contributes to our property taxes and insurance, but nothing for me.
Fear and Insecurity Rosered
Submitted by kellyj on
Hey Rosered,
Think about the word insecurity ( here we go with words again ).....in- secure = not having security. There is financial security for example....and fear of the future. There is also the concept of living by the rule of "scarcity".....always thinking that you don't have enough.....enough food, enough toys, enough money, enough love, enough sex....enough of anything....."I need more!"...but more is never enough....the bar always gets raised to the next level and you can never get there......never actually getting the carrot that's in front of you and never experiencing satisfaction unless you become satiated but just for a short time. It's like addiction.
And what Standing mentioned about hoarding and representing something from the past of future. I remember watching the show "Hoarders" and it made me very uneasy to watch. Uneasy for me because of my clutter tendencies and a touch of hoarding too. But what I remember from the show was that a big part of hoarding comes from an attachment to a persons past or future....a manifestation in physical form of a persons history or attachment to the past....like the "good old days" even if they weren't all so good...but it becomes a fantasy that maybe it was or an attempt to recreate it to replace the one you had and then put yourself into it. Romanticizing and lamenting I think. We all do it to a certain degree but it gone completely hay wire with hoarding.
But I also found that my hoarding if you will.....didn't have anything to do with that so much.....more back to making sure I had the thing I need for the future but mainly useful practical things like building materials or art supplies, sporting gear I need for future projects or for recreational activities.....things I actually need for activities that I was/am actually doing....at least at the time ( present). Combine that with always "needing to be busy" ( impulse and fear of not having something to do to keep me stimulated the "H" in ADHD) and voi la.....you've got a huge mess on your hands.....not enough storage to house it all, not being good with keeping things organized and too many activities and projects that need parts and gear.....and you can't possibly do all of these things at the same time even if you do them here and there over time. My friends nicked named me "pack rat" even as a kid because I was always saving up old use stuff just in case I could use it for something. The fact is....many times I did but also many times I didn't. That's in part where it goes wrong. That's more about the living in "scarcity" thing than an attachment to any object which didn't appear to be the problem so much with me.
Much of this was in my past but there are still the remnants of it today.....building materials and car part...engines etc....They are current projects and not for future use but there's still the organizational issue that I'm working on which is part of my future plan: clean up, organize, get rid of anything I don't need now and reduce the number of projects.....but most important of all.....finish all started projects completely one by one and not start any new ones before I finish. Completely! This is what I am currently doing full time as my job for the time being and was in the plan when I decided to quit. I have until January 1 to do this and I am already ahead of schedule.
And because I'm self motivated and actually like hard work (physical exercise going back to my days of swimming...thank god for that) I enjoy keeping busy and keeping fit so it all works. The only problem now is getting me to stop! ha ha Hyper focus at it's best!
My wife also approves immensely and couldn't't be happier except for going too long which I've had to keep an eye on and make sure I have time for us in all of this......but I like us time too. Back to making transition from hyper focus from one thing to the next and not getting stuck on one thing too long.
But why I'm telling you all of this is still in connection to you wondering about your husband is this. I know some of the way I am came from my family situation and my father who......was stingy, miserly and always worried and concerned about money. His entire focus was on money and even though we had plenty in one respect ( no one knew because he never told anyone including my mom )...we lived as if we didn't. And he always would talk as if we were poor and didn't have any and he wouldn't spend it either. He just liked to have it sitting in a bank (or somewhere) none of us knew? The net effect on me was not feeling like we had any money and he would control it so much that he controlled every dime that was spent so none us actually had any money to spend for ourselves on much of anything unless he approved. And he didn't approve of much! ha ha You always had to make a case and he would always dicker you down to less than you asked for. It was really crazy. In reality....we ( meaning he) probably had more money than most of our friends.....but we ( the rest of us in the family) literally had less things, clothes, spending money etc...than all of my friends in comparison who came from much more meager means.
I know this mentality and what you mentioned about your husband brought this to mind. Fortunately, this was one thing that I did not pick up from him even though my spending is still tempered by growing up this way. For good and bad I guess? Probably the biggest determining factor to why I don't had impulse spending issues? I don't know that for sure?
I also don't like collecting things...collections of anything. It's boring to me.....as well as not liking lots of nick nacks and a cluttery living space. I'm like Standing in that way......much more minimalist Fung Shai living space. I'm an Artist so my living space is also an extension of that.....as long as I can keep it clean! ha ha
J
I can certainly relate to
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
I can certainly relate to insecurity. I have had a lot during my husband's extended periods of unemployment. But in contrast to my husband (and pardon my language), I worked my butt off to make more money so that our financial situation would be better. And it is. Meanwhile, in the five 1/2 years since he was fired, my husband has never applied for a job. He's making money now only because his father pays him.
Both my husband and his father are hoarders. FIL is organized; H is disorganized. So I'm living here in our house with a basement filled with junk, and my husband is living with his parents in a neat and clean house in which the junk is stored and categorized.
I Can Relate and I Can't At the Same Time....
Submitted by kellyj on
I can see in myself the potential to be like your husband.....but at the same time, I didn't do it...or at least for very long. I could never not work and still have a basement full of junk. I can totally see the basement full of junk part....but if I had time on my hands I would automatically start there in fixing that issue. And I have done this over and over in the past. Create the mess....then focus on cleaning it up. Repeatedly! I really can't stand messes to be honest which doesn't make much sense?? My problem is as I stated....going too far down one road and then haveing to jump back to fix it later.. I know that this is that stimulation thing.....once I get stimulated or motivated in one direction I go full bore down that road with reckless abandon....then come to a screeching halt and then have to back up to take care of everything that fell into my wake. And definitely having trouble with organizing while I go....
The other part that is so contrary to all of this is....that when I focus on organization....I can be really good at it. Ergonomics, Fung Shai, neat and tidy, clean and organized. Once I go down that road it all turns our great. No problem. And I'm fast when I do it which is even more crazy. Actually not crazy when you think about it. I need to get done to get back to going fast in another direction. I just have trouble doing both at the same time. Back to trouble.....getting started and stopping. I'm like a race car in that respects......really good at going fast in one direction and not good in traffic! lol
That's it in a nut shell....but appears to be different than many of the things I read about other people with ADD/ADHD. That's where the good and bad at the same time comes in. There always appears to be both at the same time instead of moderation and avoiding the problem in the first place ( the bad part). But yet....the good part is good too and I do those as well as anyone and sometimes even better. I can get really detailed when I focus on the trees....to an extreme. That's also the key word.....extreme. Living either above the curve ( the average ) or below it but never staying in the middle for very long.
That's the reference in the Learning to Love ADHD movie that out about not knowing where the edge of the cliff is. I got that immediately when I heard them say that. And like living near the edge which makes the slightest wrong move disastrous sometimes.
I'm trying to bring everything down just a notch from there without losing all the benefits from being this way...ther are many. It's not just about stimulation and excitement....it also has to do with living life fully and well while we're here. I have very few regrets in this respect and there is value in that.
I've never been accused of being boring to be around except when I come home and am exhausted and need to recover. I'm apt to check out when that happens but we all need to rest when we're tired. Again....I need more extreme rest to compensate for the extreme energy that is spent.
Not so much any more.........I'm getting old! ha I like being sedentary much more than I used to. But I could never not work. I have to do something and work is doing something and you get paid for it. That works fine for me.
J
Follow Up.......The Concept of Space
Submitted by kellyj on
I just remembered something....a discovery about myself that I keep in the back of my mind as a reminder. Space.....or filling space. My clutter and my hoarding tendencies I was talking about is physical space. But I also realized a while a ago that I also fill space in other ways. Talking excessively which I do far less than I used to because of this realization is one. Filling up time space.....with too many projects. Filling up activity space with too many recreational activities. Just filling up space in general.....not allowing enough "room" for other things including but not limited to my relationships....which also includes my wife of course. Not making room or space for things that is to my detriment. I've looked at this and realized this is very greedy on my part. I fill things up so fast and so completely that there's just no room for anything else that might come along. On one hand it prevents me from being too implusive but at the same time.....it's impulsive filling up space! ha ha
The end result is never having enough time. It's already accounted for and as soon as there is more time.....I fill it up!
This is a big problem area for me and one I'm looking hard at because I realize that it is a problem. When I was younger I had too much time and was always feeling the need to fill it up with an activity. Later, I created plenty of activities but then not having enough time to do them. I still have this internal need or drive to do this and I know that it is connected to my ADHD. The "H" part and needing to be busy and burn energy. This is the other big problem area for me next to making messes. I'm very busy keeping busy and that creates lots of messes!
This is where we (ADHD'ers) need to find ways to control this need or impulsive urges. I see this now and I am doing things to counter this and it appears to be working.
Just another insight for anyone who is interested.
J
Simple change in perspective.
Submitted by c ur self on
I'm very busy keeping busy and that creates lots of messes!
Oh this is an easy one, just change your definition of what busy means....Here's your new definition: There is no such thing as a mess, because it disappears before I'm done being busy.
This is a mess......U......This is completeness.............O
Now if your wife notices you never make a mess any more and asks about it.....Just tell her............c ur self, swapped me from an U to an O...LOL.
I Like It! Only One Caviat.....
Submitted by kellyj on
what for it....here it comes....the defense. ha ha But but but....the word "just". Any time I hear that word I start to cringe. Oh, that's easy...just.................
Seriously and with some dedicated thought and a whole lot of experience and failure. This is one of those ADHD things....the invisible wall that I have referred to......
I've tried many times to balance getting things done....working the way I work best....and trying to clean as I go and I still haven't found the secret or the balance between the two. The best I've come up with is simply quitting earlier so I can clean up the mess I've made. Specifically......I do lots of work that requires lots of tools and makes messes. Sawing, welding, cutting, fabricating.....lots of little peices, lot's of waste bye products.....lot's of finesse and concentration on accuracy, timing and safety. If I have to think about being clean and neat in the process......I choose having all my fingers and not doing things twice and making a mess. It's like when you're cooking a big meal but in this case there are serious consequences to your health and well being if you make a boo boo.
That's the extra ball that I can't seem to jungle in the process.....back to quitting earlier and cleaning up the mess that I've made.
So far....that's as good as it gets. I know there are people who can do this but I haven't found the way yet.
J
J
Submitted by c ur self on
Sorry, I picked on you, wouldn't have done it if I didn't think you were self-aware :)...But you have hit on the reality of not leaving messes....It's just not stated the same...You are not quitting early, if you are restoring a maintenance shop, kitchen counter's are yards are any other places back to a readiness state for the next person. It's still the same job...But, don't let me influence you if it works better in your mind to say it this way.
I was thinking of writing a book...And one of the titles I came up with was....Oh Yea But!
No Problem C Ur Self
Submitted by kellyj on
I don't mind being the poster boy for ADHD.....I'm here as much for anything else......just waiting for someone to tell me that I'm full of it.lol Or at the very least.....to point out something I haven't thought of or am not seeing. That's really why I'm here in the first place. None of us really know the context of each other's particular situations either. We're all just sitting in the peanut gallery making cat calls at the Ump ! haha
J
J
Submitted by c ur self on
I here you, and agree totally...But knowing someone cares helps a bunch.
You know, when it comes to what mankind has determined as traits or behaviors associated with what mankind has labeled as attention deficit disorder with or with out the hyper. When I pull up the top ten list of common behaviors...I see myself, in two for sure, and battle myself quiet frequently (many times a day) in one for sure. My wife has 7 or 8 of the 10 quiet severely, which makes me understand what it is like for her in her battles....I'm not sure we have this all figured out....I think if we all could swallow our pride long enough as you seem willing to do...and open up with our own struggles and realities...I think it sure would sponsor more educated minds in the area of our struggles and much sooner!...How many people have you and I saw log onto this forum, in an emotional mess.
For me I know I must asked the lord to deliver me from this prideful curse (I make an excuse for, want, or am incapable of doing myself) of wanting everyone to thing I have it all together!
Wow, y'all have been busy here :)
Submitted by Standing on
Busy in an O kind of way. Hahaha. I love it!!
i have nothing useful to contribute, but thoroughly enjoyed reading all this.
Good news - another day lived through without enabling or contention.
Sad news - he blew off both the counselor and some employees who were counting on him. That choice will roll downhill onto me in the morning, when he will leave me semi stranded in order to tend to the employees he disappointed today. Instead of settling for feeling misused, i made alternate arrangements to cover my need and chose to focus on being glad to have a job.
However.
I began to fantasize about how pleasant it would be to NOT have him in the house anymore, so i think it is safe to say that there's a smidgen of anger and resentment fixin to brew. Dumping a bucket of ash on that and standing here (well, technically, lying down) to say: i will not go backwards!
You know what led to what i call his bad choices today? Something shiny and new to plot and plan. Something extraneous, unnecessary, and not too profitable... but it is clearly far more stimulating to think big than it is to take action on the dull stuff of mere mortals.
He may have convinced himself that he is doing enough, but he still has not picked up the separation papers and if he doesn't do that by close of business tomorrow, he will be served. Should I remind him?
I don't think you should
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
I don't think you should remind him.
Thank you, Rosered, I don't either
Submitted by Standing on
It's such an old habit, to feel so responsible for everything. It will be uncomfortable for both of us, if they have to track him down, but apparently that is the choice he's making.
Thanks!
Standing
Submitted by c ur self on
Just treat him like you want to be treated....
And, I'm sure you have thought about this, but, you might be better off, and him too, if you worked for another business. just a thought....
Treating him like i would like to be treated
Submitted by Standing on
Same here, Standing. I took
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
Same here, Standing. I took care of everyone in the family, and my husband wavered between being relieved he didn't have to do anything and resentful because I demonstrated my strength and grit, qualities he lacks.
Exactly, Rosered
Submitted by Standing on
And if I had not been treating him like I want to be treated, he'd have been long gone by now.
Enough is enough.
that's it...That's what I was looking for....
Submitted by c ur self on
Enough is Enough is the answer to how you would want him to treat you....Right answer! Do something to get different results :)
Filing for legal separation is
Submitted by Standing on
and he is behaving like it's nothing, just pumping himself up for another round of creativity in business and not giving his counseling appointment a fraction of the priority level it deserves. And he has not scheduled an appt with physician to try another med. Honestly, the one conversation he tried to initiate with me tonight was about how we might best protect customers and employees from contracting ebola. Of all the things to be considering now, when seriously, I am reminded of why I felt so strongly about his need for a psych eval. Sometimes I really do think he is nuts. All of this deep concern from a man who won't wash his hands with soap and could not be bothered to deliver paychecks to his employees. Impressive.
I want to run away from home.
When I told my husband that I
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
When I told my husband that I had filed for a legal separation (in 2013), all he said was, "What happens next?" He didn't comply with any of the obligations imposed on him by the law as the respondent in the matter (e.g., filing financial disclosure statement, even though I printed the form for him and sent him my information). During the summer of 2013 (in July?), I proposed that we live apart in the fall. I don't remember if he said anything; if he did, it wasn't much. At the end of August 2013, a few days before what I assumed would be the start of the physical separation, my husband asked if he could live in the basement. Two things: one, this wouldn't serve the purpose of a physical separation; and two, he didn't propose any other kind of compromise or trying to work on problems, just this last-ditch, "Ooh, feel sorry for me" thing. I accept his description of me asking him to live separately as me "kicking him out," but he never acknowledges all that came before, i.e., years of him neglecting and financially abusing me.
Wow.
Submitted by Standing on
Rosered, i feel like i have just read my own fortune/future. I'm so sorry, that really stinks.
My husband walks away from people, too. I think some make an imprint on him, somewhere deep beneath all the mess in there, but he always carries on.
In many ways, i think that i have stayed with the job because at least he had to notice me there. That makes me feel pathetic, but i recognize it as truth, because it hurts so much.
I used to tell the counselor that he has no stuffing. Now I just feel that there is no one home inside him at all.
When he needed me, he tried harder. Now he has his own vision of success and does not have to bother. I was just a coat to put on for a season.
All of my efforts to be reasonable and compassionate are wasted on him, like pearls before pigs. I wish i was not such a slow learner. And i am glad i don't have a basement. Thank you, Rosered.
Rosered....You hit the nail on the head here...
Submitted by c ur self on
This is why there is so much hurt, anger and bitterness that can evolve in the first years where we just live in unbelief, that someone could actually be like this, It blew my mind..ha ha ah.......
We take such a heavy load because they want....Then we have to endure the effects that just being responsible has on them....It's can get ugly! it's not fair, for a marriage to have to suffer this way....
You know...since I'm venting...lol....One thing still bother's me a little....I'm retired now, so I have more time to do the chores and shopping etc...around here....But, what still pisses me off at times...I don't mind the work so much...But, it's quiet hard to be nice some times when she decides to critique how I do things....:) oh well...Good night ladies....
standing....
Submitted by c ur self on
I think you missed my point:), I can be vague....If you were living like he is, if you viewed others like he does....If you were speaking and treating him like he is you...What would you want him to do for you?
If I know you at all, you would want him to love you unconditionally, not enable you, regardless of the circumstance's you would face in order to hopefully create a self-awareness and accountability in you if at all possible....
I understand your tie to the job, it's complicated....
yeah. It's like i keep waiting for him to do something
Submitted by Standing on
bad enough, crazy enough, so that i have no choice but to move on, and in the meanwhile, i am slowly being driven mad.
I'll see if I can trade my car in on a used model, to eliminate that payment. Without that, I can manage the bills here on my own and leave the job and all the rest of this insanity.
I have only been postponing the inevitable anyway. And I think he knows that. He has no intention of changing or trying to grow. He loves himself. Perfect in every way.
No Standing...He Doesn't Love Himself
Submitted by kellyj on
This is such a hard concept to come to and it still to this day is difficult for me to remember. Despite my ADHD and all the ways it makes me a difficult person to be with ( which it does at times ). I've managed to maintain and keep some semblance of the ability to love myself and therefore love someone else.....as they would want to be loved. Despite having ADHD. I may go into my hyper focus mode and be completely oblivious to other people....which I do quite often......but because I know this I also realize how this might feel to someone else and for that reason alone.....have worked hard to find way around this better. I don't want to do that to other people....I wouldn't like it and I know what that feels like when someone does it to me. I'm not doing what I'm doing to stay out of trouble or to get someone to like me......unfortunately, I learned a long time ago how to shut off whether people liked me or not as a defense. It served it's purpose at the time in order for me to move forward and not be affected by insecurity.....I specifically talking about the ADHD issues.
In other words....I developed a pretty thick skin when it comes to criticism. But this is like I said, not necessarily a good thing and is a really bad thing in that it makes you an island alone in a big sea. But underneath any persona I may have adopted ( I mentioned spending lots of time in men's locker rooms growing up which served that purpose perfectly in that specific environment and I'd say mostly around men) as a protection or a means to fit in........I never lost my ability to care about others. I've had my moments where I lost faith but it was never enough to make that part of me disappear completely even in my darkest moments.
The day I came to the realization that not everyone cares like I do was extremely disturbing to me and to this day haunts me every time I see it.
My friend the pilot ( I mentioned before)....were getting into a political debate about world policy ( I hate discussing politics so don't shoot the messenger or respond to anything political lol) and he made a statement ( from his very pointed and biased political stance) that actually made a lot of sense to me ( sense in one respect not agreeing with it necessarily as he was saying it)
But he was arguing how ( at the time)...our foreign policy concerning the Soviet Union was concerned. How we.....the good guys and on the side of rightousness.....could pretty much justify anything we did in the name of US ( the good guys) because they (commies) didn't play by the same rules as we do. He proceeded to tell me stories about the history of Russia and how they proved that they come from a barbaric way of thinking that we just can't get our heads around. His conclusion and final argument was " if the US and it's people could really see and understand this then everyone would see how we need to fight fire with fire and play by the same rule book or else they will defeat us because we are at a distinct disadvantage by using our own righteous good guy rule book approach to defeating a foe who will stoop lower than us to win."
Fundamentally that was his argument which didn't really work out the way he said as we know.
But what resonated with me was the concept that people do not share the same ideals and thoughts let alone deeper human feelings including the capacity to care and love. If someone is missing this ability.....they simply do not care.
So if you keep using your ability to care and put that into your thoughts and idea of a person where this is missing.....you will never see them correctly. It won't make any sense.
When I say I don't care....It's probably converging up the fact that I'm hurt or feeling defensive about something...most likely involving my ability to care about others or myself.
When I'm saying people possibly like we're talking about don't care....this has an entirely different meaning. It's not there. We're talking the vacuum of outer space. The inability to love? feel love? or even know that love is? It's missing.
A person like this also cannot love themselves because of this reason....love is a construct inside their head that is a fantasy even though they can do a very good job of convincing you that they too love as you do.
But like you said before ( I mentioned it too) everyone fits somewhere along the scale.....the tricky part sometimes is trying to figure out exactly where another person belongs on the scale of love or the ability to know how to access it.
I've been hit smack in my face with this realization before and it has shaken me to the core.....yet it never changed my ability to care or loose that ability no matter how bad it gets.
But if you keep applying yourself to your husband in this way it will drive you crazy and you will always be disappointed. Better to see him the way I described as painful as that is for you to admit possibly.....and then work backwards from there without going to an extreme if that's not the case.
I think what I'm talking about might be an extreme sociopath and I think these are fewer and far between.....but they do exist and I have see them. It scares the shit out me and gives me shivers to think about it but........it also helps me understand that this does exist on different levels and simply understanding that sometimes people really do not care is the easiest way to understand it in order to accept it
J
I understand, J
Submitted by Standing on
I should have said that he appears to love his image of himself, the idealized one, with no substance.
Love is a construct to some.. yes, that seems to be about the size of it.
Feels to me more like autism or some version of asperger syndrome, rather than a degree of sociopathy, but then again.. what's the difference? Not all sociopaths have murderous inclinations, i don't suppose.
I am confused and very near to not caring whether i ever understand the whys and remedies, if any.
You wrote: "When I say I don't care....It's probably converging up the fact that I'm hurt or feeling defensive about something...most likely involving my ability to care about others or myself."
Me, too.
With my husband, i do sense that it is more based in hopeless resignation than the vaccuum of outer space thing. He is so changeable, it seems impossible to know for sure.
I keep returning to his remark after receiving the N diagnosis: "I just need to put on a new game; that's what people do."
Really? Is that all there is?
Not Caring Standing
Submitted by kellyj on
I responded to you in context to the things you were discussing with C Ur Self and Rosered and seeing the disconnect if you will.....the disconnect to someone who cares and maybe someone who simply doesn't. That's such a difficult thing for me too.
But that's what I was trying to say about working backwards from that end of the scale to probably what's more likely the case with your husband. That and expecting him to do something different even if you are the one offering some kind of compromise or gesture in good faith......and then being disappointed that he doesn't respond.
Actually.....he is responding.....with a very consistent chronic case of only thinking in terms of himself.......which might be a milder version of what I was saying. You will never be disappointed if you expect him to disappoint you which is what history has shown.......history being the best predictor of the future right?
Another way to see it is that Narcissistic food thing......always needing to be fed. You've been feeding it and as long as you do you have value to him. Your value is that you have something to give him....some kind of food he needs ( or it being the N) As soon as you cut off the food supply he will drop you like a hat. It's very black and white......value, no value, value, no value.
I'm not saying he even cognitively realizes this but in reality it is exactly what is happening. In the meantime you feel hurt and disrespected because in reaity.....you are being disrespected or devalued.
But here's the crazy round and round aspect to this. As long as you have value to him ( feeding his N) he treats you with respect.....but you mistakenly think its because of all the reasons you would act or behave like this.....from a caring aspect. What's really happening ( or has been happening maybe for years?) is that as long as you fed him you were under the illusion that he cared for you the same as you cared for him........wrong! You fed him and that was your value to him. That's the part that hurts when you see this......but it's really fundamentally been going on forever.....you just couldn't see it......well you did over time here and there. And it made you feel used at those moments.....but then.....back to the same ol' same ol' thinking you have value as long as you play ball with him......and he reciprocates with his praise and affection for being a good provider of his N food and everything is OK....sort of.
The problem is connecting these facts together in a way you can understand.......the fact that your value is based on feeding his N instead of being valued as a caring person. The N doesn't see appreciation or feel the need to reciprocate and sharing....an exchange of the same. It feels entitled to being fed and therefore.....what else would you do? As if the N is air and water.......basice things for survival that we are all entitled too.
In a real sense.....your consistent disappointment and feeling disrespected or used is real and for good reason....because in the sense that I'm talking about you are. Your kind of just a pawn........in "his game".
His statement that he made in reference to "finding a new game" is him saying straight up that this is how he sees things. His food is gone, the pawn has jumped ship.....time to look else where or change the plan....to find a new plan that fits with getting fed and continue being a Narcissist because he doesn't see anything outside of that as an option and.......that works perfectly for him so why would I change?
That's the thing.....once you see this all the statements that he makes will make perfect sense. They ( Narcs) will usually have no problem saying exactly what they are thinking out load and not even realizing just how contrary or confusing they are to other people.....but it's because they are missing that component of empathy for others and don't see this. Once you learn how to decode it and start understanding their cryptic statements it becomes really obvious and transparent.
And yes.......they make lots of those statements. They're really talking to themselves out load and not to you even if it appears they are actually talking to you at the time. These are usually the most telling statements of all since they are pure projection.
Sometimes the projection is just the opposite of what they are feeling which are aimed at you usually .....but many times they are like the comments he made about finding a new game which are straight up how he thinks.
And yes.....spending lots of time trying to understand all the reasons why just gets old and tiresome....
Best just to understand that fundamentally he doesn't care the same as you and you just need to keep that in mind when you are trying to decide what to do.
The past is the best predictor of the future and Narcs are very very consistent.....they will not disappoint you there.
A lot of what I'm saying here in part, is also trying to make the distinction I see with Narcissism and ADHD behaviors that might look the same from the outside. I can see how it does sometimes so I am considerate of that fact when I see people getting irritated with me...
But I think right there is one huge difference between the two.
J
I think you've nailed it, J.
Submitted by Standing on
Thank you for this! I'll need to re-read and process and really think it through, to know. I've been praying for wisdom and eyes to see exactly what is the behind his behavior.
Today I am thinking... People are so impressed with his business and yet I feel like it's all upside down and topsy turvy, since I've been here to see so much of the craziness, and all the folks who have walked away from it. The accountant even says to him, "You must be doing something right!" Yet all I want to do is run from it, because I'm not up for the next frenzy.
He is sounding so reasonable now, so sincere with his pledges to try to do better, pointing out a couple instances from the past 2 days where he has actually shared info and requested my input and apparently listened. And yet - - - there is NO acknowledgement from him of the past errors in judgment, hasty and costly moves, disrespect and selfishness, egomania, laziness, and entitlement. So I keep saying: please try to imagine how I feel and think, and how foolish I would be too accept words as though actions would follow. Hey, at least he's not getting angry and obnoxious, but my gut tells me it's all still empty talk.
At this point, only time will tell, I guess. I am not willing to live as though married, but unable to expect anything but disappointment. That much I do know. I actually DO see some positive aspects of romantic relationship with add, by the way... but definitely not with N.
Thanks, again! :)
Good Luck Standing
Submitted by kellyj on
I could see you struggling with this.....I'm always afraid of saying too much but I know I've made some disjointed comments in the past related to all of this stuff......that's going back to stepping outside of the circle and removing yourself from it. I think it's really hard to see sometimes when your too close to it. I hope the separation ( in a literal sense) will help.
And thanks again for the vote of confidence about the ADD part.....I think that's one reason the N part is so difficult....not willing or having the ability to see themselves.
I still have lots of work to do but it's getting there.
I did miss your point, c ur self
Submitted by Standing on
I thought you were falling back to an old Scriptural mandate, without the rest of the story. I'm sorry, I should have known better.
I didn't sleep much. A friend of mine works in the business, Between the two of us, we are keeping it operational. It won't be easy for her to find other employment, either.
So I'm trying to weigh options. What would I gain by walking away from my job? Freedom from his influence, his craziness, the relational backlash that surrounds every interaction he has with other employees, all the stuff described by J above.
And lose? I'd have to trade in my year-old car for a cheap used. I couldn't care less about that. For so many months I have felt like I'm on a flooding ship, bailing water with an eyedropper. I remove 10 cc's of water and he dumps in a 5 gallon bucket. A vehicle is the least of my concerns.
And back to my friend... she knew how he was before she took the job. Of course, that was head-knowledge, not up close and personal experience. She could stay on until she finds something else. It would be a real challenge, but she must walk her own path and I, mine.
Maybe I had this whole thing backwards. I thought that I needed to stay with the job in order to expedite the legal separation... to have leverage. But since all he cares about is the business, and his own comfort, my efforts to maintain the status quo for him have done just that - maintained the status quo !! DUH !!! Mr. Right Hand Man walked away from it. So must I?
Anyway, thanks for getting me all riled up and making me think. I'll discuss all this with counselor today.
I didn't think you would sleep well. :(
Submitted by c ur self on
Standing,
When I pray for you; I pray for healing; I pray that you have peace w/your husband. I don't want you two to split up or quit your job....But, I know only you can determine what will honor the Heavenly Father in your life; and marriage. I know you are seeking the best avenue for an attempt at restoration, and I am going to pray even more for your guidance, and dependence on Jesus...
I'm sorry, that I upset you, I've said to much....Blessings Dear Sister!
Vulnerable
Submitted by Standing on
Please keep praying, c ur self.
Maybe i needed to get riled. When I ask myself why I so quickly got angry and defensive.. I think that i was hurt because i felt misunderstood. That's not your responsibility at all. Really, i think the hurt came from my thinking that he did not even care enough to attend his second solo counseling session. I didn't want to care whether or not he tried, but clearly, i do care. Clearly, i have a strong dislike of feeling vulnerable, and that is no one else's responsibility but mine.
Tonight, my husband and i talked. He asked how i was doing and i told him. He listened. He promised to do better. Then he acknowledged that he knows he's said all this before. I did tell him that he will be served the papers, since he didn't go get them, and that I will follow through with our separation. He did not bat an eye.
He focused all of his best salesmanship on convincing me that he would do better in the business. He claimed that something had clicked with him and he is now willing to see my point of view and to work with me as a real partner. I told him that he must first see me as a real person and not only as the responsible side of himself.
He blinked. Hard. Obviously, it had never occurred to him that I may seriously not want to be in business. "I would think..." So i told him that I have felt for ages now that he only behaves enough to keep me there, because he needs me involved. That I may not be there, that I had been ready to give notice, that I may still do so, that when the end of the month comes along and he's run out of adderal, I won't be there, that he should write all this down, because i will not keep repeating it, and that I do not believe in his follow-through or consistency. He claimed to understand. I said, we shall see.
The counselor thinks the man loves me. I think he is a consummate salesman. What would it take to convince me? Behavioral changes, consistency, actions.
One thing i know for certain - i am trustworthy. I do not respect my husband because he has a 10 year pattern of doing only what suits himself. He is welcome to try to earn my respect, while I practice respecting myself enough to not be his tool. I don't want him to go through the motions of marriage counseling, i want him to go address his issues alone and then walk out the lessons learned in real life.
Please pray that God will give me eyes to see whether it's for real.
Standing.
Submitted by c ur self on
All I will say is continue to keep your focus on being self-aware...And let the lord guide you patiently...I don't know what your husband is capable of...But, I know God loves you both with the full force of his love...And he spoke the world into existence, so I know what he is capable of....I hope you rest well....PS...Glad y'all talked sounded productive:)
Thanks :)
Submitted by Standing on
I needed that. You are a good brother. I think i will keep you ;)
Happy night!
cooking
Submitted by Standing on
Son is home for fall break, and wife is cooking Breakfast.. yea!
Submitted by c ur self on
I would rather focus on the fun of the creative process....This is my wife :)
But discipline is in every cell of my being, so there is not much risk that I will walk away and leave destruction in my wake....This is me:)
The secret to my peace is know my role....make no judgment on her...and smile a lot!!!!!
Making out around the sink is fun too!
Oh, Brother!! lol
Submitted by Standing on
I just read this after my last post
Submitted by kellyj on
I think it will be wise of you to "play ball" enough not to get hurt especially in light of having your financial rug being pulled out from underneath you. It really is an adversarial relationship your in and it's good to keep that in mind.
Also keeping in mind the things I said in my last post in knowing and understanding your opponent.
If you've never read the "Art of War"....now would be a good time to take a look at it and follow that protocol. It really works....I know I've tried it! It's not about being vindictive and vengeful (going to battle or fighting).....it's about being objective and smart for your own protection and well being.
Better to play chess with a checker player anyway. lol
J
War
Submitted by Standing on
P.S.
Submitted by Standing on
I Think You Got It Standing
Submitted by kellyj on
I was concerned that the things I was saying might get misconstrued but I see we are on the same page. The way I see it is that you are now in a competition.....maybe for resources in a real sense. That's a different way to look at the word "war". I love a good challenge and clean healthy competition ( thinking in terms of sports or games for fun and enjoyment ).....winnning is not everything but it is the goal of course....and how you play the game determines the outcome. If your opponent is only thinking about winning he will lose sight of how the game should be played.......that's where you have a distinct advantage. Thinking objectively is the best course of action..
Another way to phrase this is not to let your emotions lead you or take control ie: anger, revenge, fear, envy, arrogance, insecurity.....the list goes on.
Objectively speaking.....your husband or better.....his N which drives him to win (thinking only in terms of himself and what it wants) in many ways can lead him to win and be successful and appears very confident and strong from the outside (also intimidating and menacing ) is also is his greatest weakness. If is fueled by unconscious thought and emotion and is very predictable which you already know and can easily predict.
This is where all the wisdom from any source you can draw from come into play including the ones in the Art of War. They teach this stuff in business and large corporations specifically apply these tenants because they involve universal truths and wisdom as a guide for success.
This also includes but is not limited by the same tenants in the Bible and the gospel of Jesus which I know you draw your spiritual strength from. But in this case would be used as a guide away from the temptation of evil if you will....not be used to destroy (evil) but as a guide to help you not make those kinds of decisions or keep them out of your thoughts while in this process.
The thing I like about looking for other wisdom sources too is to help gain more perspective as well.
In the Art of War.....which is the foundation for martial arts (or even boxing ).....it says that every offense must have a corresponding defense....and conversely......every defense must have a corresponding offense. You must always maintain balance ( equilibrium )in a physical, spiritual and emotional sense....... at all times in everything. The whole Ying and Yang thing.
It also talks about the greatest victory of all is the one you did not have to fight in battle to win ( to lift your hand ) which is always the very last resort in all cases............ to use your opponents hand against him if he lift his hand against you.....by turning that energy back on itself instead of you using your own energy to lift your hand against your opponent.( which in turn is saying that he will defeat himself by using his own energy to do so)
I always think of the TV show 'Kung Foo" which reminds me of this so much. I loved that show as a kid growing up! ha ha
So what you were saying..... For as long as I have been dealing with a person who seems utterly incapable of anticipating consequences, i have been awaiting that extraordinary moment. Passively awaiting. For the first time, it's dawned on me that maybe the extraordinary moment was waiting for me.
Falls in line with one of the first tenants in the Art of War....the element of surprise as being one of your greatest assets. His Grandiose Narcissism being his greatest weakness.....that and his own expectation for you to do the same as you have always done......and maybe arrogantly underestimating you.
Surprise is in essence throwing your opponent out of balance while you maintain your own putting you at an advantage in the adversarial relationship.
This kind of stuff is really fun to think about but in a case where you actually need to use it it can be an invaluable resource.......and like I said.....it really does work!!!
And I also wanted to say that I hope I'm not coming across as telling you what to do or feeling a need to give you unsolicited advise.....I'm responding to the things I've read you say and seeing myself (in the past) in your shoes and having been there before ....also wishing I had some wisdom and insight to help me when I needed it most.
Many times not getting it either and having to fumble my way through the best I could. Also knowing how hard it is not to be emotional at times that are extremely emotional! ha ha
My best advise most of the time is to sleep on it for a day and wait until the next day to make any decisions.
That song..."Tommorow, Tommorrow...." from "Annie" pops into my head.
OMG.....if you wanted to torture me you could do nothing worse than tie me to a chair with headphones on and play that song coming into one ear and play "It's a Small World After All" in the other ear at the same time non stop!
But....I digress. Sorry it's an ADHD thing. lol
J
Not a bit bossy, J
Submitted by Standing on
I don't think my husband ever
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
I don't think my husband ever showed any emotion about me filing for a separation or about the possibility of us divorcing. He made one sarcastic comment about the property division I tentatively proposed and he remarked a few times about me kicking him out, but no emotion.
Rosered, is that not the strangest feeling?
Submitted by Standing on
My husband cries during
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
My husband cries during movies and TV shows and tells anecdotes intended to display how emotionally sensitive he is. But with me, wife of nearly 30 years, no emotion any time I've talked about splitting up. It makes me feel either like dirt or as though I'm invisible or dead.
I'm sorry, Rosered, that hurts.
Submitted by Standing on
Good To Hear Standing
Submitted by kellyj on
It's good to have people in your corner somtimes....but I am learning so much from you ( and others here) as well. I can see one thing that I struggle with in times like you are experiencing and that is compassion. I admire yours in light of everything that you're going through and noticed how easily I can get pretty pragmatic within my empathy ( as it is)......that's just it.....I don't have any trouble seeing things from someone else's perspective but I quickly begin to troubleshoot the problem and look for solutions. I'm a "fixer" and but fully aware of it. This has been brought up by my therapist almost simultaneously at the same time that I realized it myself......literally coming up with the term "fixer" independently of each other. I even asked him if that was some psychological definition ( as he was saying it) which he replied "well not exactly...unless your referring to working for the mafia?" I laughed really hard when he said that since it wasn't exactly what I was thinking either. lol
But not to get too far off topic ( adhd ha ha).....I really am a fixer in a physical, literal sense with the work I do and my abilities to fix things.....car's, boats. machines, mail box's ( ha ha ) anything and everything that's truly my calling.
But when I realized this I also went uh oh......I see the problem here and there's a down side too. It reeks of being co-dependent and I quickly can see where this comes from in my past with my own family. And as much as I really did play referee between my mom and my dad at times ( later when my sisters had moved out and I was stuck....I mean alone with my parents as a teenager) I also see that in myself as me playing out my internal need to be fixed or fix what is wrong with me.
It's a different variant from being controlling....instead of trying to control everything " I'll just fix it!" This certainly has some upsides and social value for others but along with acquiring some really useful skills associated with it comes the maladaptive side to this one survival strategy and that is side stepping some important emotions like compassion.....immediately going from empathy to fixing with compassion taking a back seat in so many situations.
I can see this so clearly in how I approach things and as I am reading and following your posts I (in light of your past and present) I see the compassion that comes so quickly in you that would be much more difficult for me in your situation despite the fact that I can be very empathic or even sympathetic to other people.
I realized this in a big way yesterday as I wrote to you with wisdom as it was....as I later began to feel a bit embarrassed and ashamed for lacking the ability that you have for compassion for your husband even now in light of everything you're going through.
"You shamed me woman! It's all your fault!" ha ha sorry.....you're probably pretty tired of that I imagine.
So for what's it worth....you've been as much a teacher to me here ( as well as others on this forum)......and as much as I have tried to offer my innate abilities in being pragmatic and insightful .....the years of needing this as a defense mechanism has created a bad habit by sometimes putting compassion somewhere at the back of the bus.
Thanks for that Standing and if you don't think it doesn't show......it does! Hopefully my insight has helped you as well.
J
over empathising
Submitted by Standing on
I Already Went Into Download Mode.....
Submitted by kellyj on
with Liz about co-dependence which is what I discovered was the net effect of being raised by an N. I think it goes with the territory.
So I won't keep going on and on about that but.....my therapist gave me a clue that really helped me in all of this so I'll pass it along to you.
When you start getting that feeling like someone is trying to give you something that doesn't belong to you..... making definitive statements about you as if they were you......don't take it! especially when they wrong! ha ha
usually it comes disguised as a wolf in sheep's clothing...." here let me help you understand you better....in order to help you."
Don't believe it for a second. If you know who you are and what you are then it starts getting pretty obvious. I'm highly suspect when people tell me who I am and portray themselves as some kind of benefactor. Unless it's my therapist of course. He gets paid to do it. That's an easy one!
J
codependence
Submitted by Standing on
Back to Insight ha ha
Submitted by kellyj on
I did want to mention a couple of things outside of my last confession...I mean post......in reference to your friend and him saving face. Boy....I can't tell you what a mine field that has been for me in the past. I'm pretty quick in calling a spade a spade and I never realized in the past that this was why I invited so much trouble through the door when being around a N. Without realizing it....I was backing the N into a corner with no escape route for saving face and the"cover story" or "spin" as I refer to it. My therapist once told me that I would be the perfect litmus test for him in using me as a gunnie pig for exposing anxiety disorders and some N behaviors in others saying all he'd have to do is put me inside a closed room with a suspected client and watch how they respond to me after engaging with them for a while. "Gee thanks" I said.....but in direct reference to what we were talking about I understood the context to what he was saying......
That being......my unique talent for calling people out and being fairly accurate about it. I know where this comes from thinking back to my family again....being the identified patient can get pretty old at times...pretty soon you start to mirror people without even realizing that's what you're doing.
N's don't like to be mirrored and I found this out the hard way. But.....I also came to realize ( again unintentionally) that the bizarre statements and the "spins" I would elicit were coming from my end in that I didn't leave a lot of room for escape.....pretty much locking the door and throwing away the key so to speak ( and in reference to what my therapist was saying ).
I think this is different than putting your foot in your mouth or being boorish ( not so much my problem ) more like being the little girl character in the story of "The Emperors' New Clothes" except I was not so little and so harmless in stature which was more like calling someone out for a gun fight in a Western.....without understanding that's what I was doing?
So what I'm trying to say to you here is that yes.....it can be hilarious but it shouldn't be too shocking after a while. I learned how to do this thing I do in a better way.....by not being quite so overt but still somewhat intentionally setting someone up to see what they'll do. I learned how to do this from my therapist as a by product of therapy even if it felt deceptive on my part at first. I guess you'd call it testing? But it does have it's value at times like you are going through with an N as it can be very telling indeed.
And before I forget to say........For the record; this is not the kinds of things you would want to be doing in a normal happy relationship with someone. I just wanted to make that clear as I am mostly referring back to all the N's that I have encountered....including my ex-boss who sounds remarkably like your husband.....and in the same context that your friend was doing. Just to be sure if someone who read this thinks...wow....that's pretty cold and calculating.
I've been really ambushed (and hurt) by N's in my past so these are things I've learned from experience to keep myself out of harms way.
You can use this to your advantage for the exact same reason without being malicious yourself. It really takes all their power away which gives you more strength in a good way too.
Hope this helps.
j
beautiful!
Submitted by Standing on
Yes, That's It Exactly
Submitted by kellyj on
I don't know how many times my father would go completely out of control with anger...raging anger! with me when I was simply pointing things out to him or worse......poking fun at him ( in fun really...thinking he would get the humor as he did himself to others). Boy was I wrong! I had no idea where that anger came from? And I learned to do it from him in the first place. He really could be funny...our whole family could get pretty wound up and on a role a times with laughter, joking and teasing each other in fun.....but if you mistakenly hit the wrong button.....the mirroring thing....especially in front of others look out!
It wasn't the lashing out or even the physical violence that hurt.....the physical pain. This didn't happen often or was even extreme by many standards but it was the utter shock and dismay of being attacked out of no where for no apparent reason...with such venom. That's where the damage is done.....you feel betrayed by the person that you love or want to love you and it's pretty clear in those moments that this is not the case. Actually it's not clear to you when you are a child but what is clear is the complete disconnect and the opposite of anything that makes any sense or you can work through emotionally. That's the real damage in that it remains unresolved until you can make that connection. For me.....years later after he was dead.
That'll mess with your head! But I've found it does get resolved but it also takes time. The bits and pieces in the wake of this are the things I'm still cleaning up after.
What's most important is that you get there not how long it takes. Once you do it feels soooooo much better!
It allows you to fully forgive and that's the key. That's the part the Gospel keeps saying to you....it's the very reason Jesus said it. Jesus and every other major religious figure in the history of man...for the same reason.
J
no one is born shy
Submitted by Standing on
Been There...Done That lol
Submitted by kellyj on
ditto
Thanks...you enjoy the gift of today also, Sister!
Submitted by c ur self on
(I don't think it is possible to feel playful with someone who has the power to pull out the rug of financial security from beneath me and there is nothing i can do to prevent it.)
I can empathize with many poster's in many ways...But, I've never had this reality you are feeling...So, I have no advice....really! c ur self w/no advice....Well, maybe this one little thing...Try not to let the unknown haunt you...And who know's this may be your day.....
That's Just It Standing
Submitted by kellyj on
I'm disciplined too.........that's what is so frustrating about having ADHD. It makes me out to be a liar some times. I hate that! lol
Learning to use it to combat my ADHD.....that does work.
J