So after 5 years of marriage I've - mostly by chance - figured out that my wife has ADD, a moderate form. No she, hasn't been diagnosed yet - raising that is the next big step - but I'm very careful, have done my homework, and it's just too exact a fit. It explains so much. Trust me on that.
What's stunning is that not one person - none of our friends, and neither of the therapists (one she was seeing, one we saw together) - ever seriously listened to the issues I was raising. They just started from their own pre-existing stereotypes - if a man ever shows any anger and frustration, he's a monster, and they don't need to hear any facts to decide who's at fault. They don't need to know how extreme the circumstances were that led to a verbal outburst, the torture that far exceeded the words said. And, if a man ever gets angry, why you're surely on the edge of snapping and violence - no matter how you live the rest of your life.
Part of this is just that people don't understand ADD, and the multitude of effects it can have. Especially the filtering and distortion of reality. Our marriage counselor always seemed to have the attitude that there was her reality, and my reality, and that both were equally valid. Except when hers was more valid - after all, men are always so sure they're right, so they must be wrong - right?
Part of it is just the sexism everyone walks around with. Friends who have known me for 20 years immediately assumed it was my fault. I realize that those stereotypes exist for reasons - there are so many cases where they might be right. But no one seems to stop to realize that they don't know what's really going on, and that they need to spend a lot of time listening before they jump to conclusions.
You'd think therapists would know better. But the sexism among therapists and social workers is what's really alarming. You'd think they'd be trained to be a lot more careful in their evaluation of a situation, what to rule in and what to rule out. But there's a lot of laziness, cramming in too many clients, etc. Some of it is just human - their mind wanders, they are tired - which would be fine if they realized their own limitations, rather than assuming they know the answers before you speak.
Has anyone else (male or female) experienced these things - that people who should know you better (friends) or just plain know better (therapists) assume that because you're angry, it's your fault, and they don't need to listen and understand the situation?
Been There
Submitted by Ren on
Shore -- I have been in your shoes. I am female, but the stereotypes go both ways. We went to marriage counseling after I literally went over the edge and threw a bowl of oatmeal across the room. My husband decided that that was his "breaking point" and that we needed counseling or he was going to leave.
Of course, in the counseling, I was cast as the hysterical, emotionally needy woman. Never mind that I have NEVER thrown anything during a fight in my life with anyone else. Never mind that I have never even yelled in a fight in any previous relationship. Never mind all of the insanity I put up with -- including my husband getting drunk and telling my mom, who was visiting, to get out of the house (and that wasn't even the incident that led me to throw something). No, he was completely calm during the marriage sessions, while I vented, and cried, and only confirmed the stereotypes that the therapist had about me. She believed that I was not giving my husband enough space and that I did not accept him. When I tried to communicate how emotionally lonely and abandoned I felt, and how he was so different when we were dating, her response was, "Well, it sounds like you didn't know him very well when you decided to marry him, because it seems like he's very clear about his need to spend lots of time alone and with his hobbies." It was so unproductive and depressing. You are so right that anyone who treats the "realities" of a non-ADD person and an undiagnosed ADD person as equally valid are really contributing to the further deterioration of the marriage.
P.S. This therapist had a PhD and despite the fact that we discussed my husband's procrastination, forgetfulness, lack of emotional involvement, impulsivity, etc., she NEVER even brought up ADD as a potential issue. *I* figured out he has ADD a year and a half later, after reading a magazine article.
Anyway, consider it a sign from God that you stumbled across ADD -- that is the key to saving your marriage. The diagnosis has helped my husband to finally see that my reality IS valid, and is the reality that most people live in. Of course, I have to deal with the anger -- so much anger -- that has built up over the last 6 years and also the anger at my family and the therapist and everyone else who should have been helping me but just buried me deeper in my depression by denying that there was a problem coming from him. He's taking responsibility for his end now, but I can't seem to let go of my anger. Hopefully I will be able to.
Good luck.
Been There
Submitted by Catfish on
Sounds oh so familiar. We have been in counseling for almost 6 months, however our therapist DID peg my husband as ADD. I had suspected it long ago but did not realize the implications it had on our marriage until I found this site a week ago. Wow - reading the posts here on this site floored me because it was all so descriptive of our relationship, down to precise details.
To both of your points, even though our therapist had diagnosed him, I feel she wasn't validating that my anger was understandable. I didn't really feel that until I found this site. Not to say that I want to continue being angry, I understand that I need to diffuse my anger, but I needed some acknowledgement that for the most part, my anger and resentment is understandable considering the way we have lived for the past 7 years with his undiagnosed ADD. Yesterday, I went into the therapy session with info printed out from this site and spoke about what all I had learned. I made it clear that I was understanding the ADD better, but that it is apparent to me that my husband must take responsibility for some of the chaos that ADD causes and that we together must figure out ways to manage the symptoms of ADD. I told the therapist that is what I wanted from her was to assist us in managing the ADD symptoms. Before yesterday I was feeling a little hopeless that we had been in therapy for almost 6 months but I wasn't feeling much better. For me, a dangerous thing was to feel at all more invalidated or more blame that my anger was contributing to our marriage problems. As said perfectly, anyone who treats the "realities" of a non-ADD person and an undiagnosed ADD person as equally valid are really contributing to the further deterioration of the marriage.
For the first time in awhile, I felt calm and at peace yesterday, validated and acknowledged that I am, at heart, not an angry person. More importantly, I didn't need to convey this in a defensive way - just merely as a fact. I'm not angry, the symptoms of ADD have made life chaotic and made me angry and hurt, and we must focus on managing those symptoms. And that means both of us. It used to make me crazy to hear my husband say "but I didn't intend to make you feel that way" or "you shouldn't feel like that." - I now can accept that to a degree, actually believing that to be true - however, it is his responsibility to accept whatever his intention was, is not the point, if I say a behaviour has made me feel a certain way, he has to NOT immediately defend himself, but rather listen and trust in what I say and honor it. Needless to say, a work in progress.
I think the stereotypes go both ways - I am a very strong woman and my husband appears more laid back - I think it can be easy for therapists to default to "fixing" the one who is in the office expressing the most complaints and anger, etc...and in the case of ADD and non-ADD spouses, this can be very detrimental. It is important to find a therapist who truly understands ADD and more importantly, ADD marriages, with non-ADD spouses.
Ren, as for not letting go of the anger - I hear ya. It is difficult, but I know that is my one main responsibility in this ADD diagnosis and decision to work on our relationship. By no means do I think my anger has been invalid or undeserved - no way, (and that helps me) but I also realize it hasn't gotten me anywhere and if my husband can take on the responsibility that the ADD causes chaos and we have to manage it, then I am going to seriously work at managing my anger.
Good luck as well.
Managing Anger
Submitted by Hoping4More on
Yes, it is oh so hard to do. I am not even close. I find that with new knowledge about ADD I able to take things in without getting angry as quickly as in the past . . . but only up to a point, and then I lose it. I just get soooooooo exasperated it comes out in yelling and crying. And then I feel terrible afterwards.
It often seems as if it is not UNTIL I lose it that my wife takes the time to try to "hear" what I am saying. So I am sure part of my losing it is due to my feeling that is the only way to get through to her.
I hear what the "experts" say - that my angry outbursts are not helping and not doing any good for either of us. Still, it seems they are happening several times a week. And believe it or not - that's an improvement. We used to have "fights" virtually every day.
Like so many others who post to this site - I never used to have angry outbursts before. I was not a person who raved and ranted. I did not yell at others. I did not feel so angry that I wanted to throw or break something.
And despite any progress I have made, I am having a really hard time NOT getting angry. Sometimes, I am am able to stop myself and say to my wife "I feel this is not going well and I am starting to get angry. Can we take a break?" But other times my anger just sneaks up on me.
And as Catfish has said - controlling my anger is MY main job in this. It is what I need to do in order to help our relationship. The other is to not fall back into constantly nagging and criticizing. And I need to do those things while at the same time continuing to find ways to express myself and not detach. Because when I detach, it drives my wife crazy, resulting in angry outbursts and tirades from HER.
Jeeze - what a pair we are! LOL
The Dance of Anger - Harriet Lerner
Submitted by sapphyre on
I have finally started reading this book that Melissa recommended months or years ago :)
This morning, only on pg 9, I came across this paragraph that stopped me in my tracks. It describes wives of ADHD partners to a T... (this section is comparing the so-called "bitchy" woman, which some of us have certainly become and never been before the relationship!
I have split this paragraph up into bullet points as each sentence speaks volumes (to me at least). These are the author's words, I have made no changes other than adding bullet points. (This is comparing "bitchy women" who vent against "nice ladies" who repress their anger. Neither works for serious ingrained issues!)
I think this book may really help. I've borrowed it from the library. Anyone else hear read it?
Book
Submitted by jules on
I'm so glad you brought up that book. I got myself a copy after reading Melissa's recommendation, but haven't started it yet - am currently working my way through Delivered from Distraction. Will be good to hear other feedback you might have as you continue reading it.
Validation on anger
Submitted by shore on
Catfish you said it well. Some of what you describe is just what I felt when reading this NY Times article.
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/19/attention-disorders-can-take-a-...
It's not that I wanted people to say it was entirely OK for me to be angry. Just to acknowledge and validate that people can't expect someone to be a complete saint and absolutely perfect (and self sacrificing) when they have an ADD partner. It was also so helpful to read about other marriages experiencing exactly what we did. It's real and I'm not alone any more!
It's also enormously helpful to have that validation in being able to forgive them and hope that the partners (and others) forgive me. Neither of us really chose to act this way, so if we are willing to work on adapting, it cuts way down on the "need" for anger and blame. At the moment I'm thinking one of the first / next steps in our marriage and with friends should be forgiveness.
Though I'm still kind of angry at the therapists ...
Your other comments are so similar to our experience too, the ADD partner is often very good at directing attention to their agenda and therapists seem to go with that.
Ren . . .
Submitted by BreadBaker on
Subtract the bowl of oatmeal and the mother-in-law moment, and that's what happened in our marriage therapy, too.
Really interesting
Submitted by shore on
Ren, it's really interesting and helpful to hear a story that really connects with me, but with the male / female roles changed around
I consider myself not only extremely lucky to have stumbled on this (via the NY Times article) but also that my anger is much reduced. (Most of the time, anyway!) There have been two things going on, for me:
1) I had slowly and steadily given up, over the years of therapy, on having my issues heard or getting any change. It actually helped for me to stop expecting change, and just deal with things as they are and do what I could do. I know that's grim, and maybe would only work for a while, but it helped me. It helped to keep the children in mind, to keep my resolve to do whatever I could because this is affecting them too. So oddly giving up hope was in a way helpful for me. It got me unstuck from thinking things should or would change, to just trying to do what I could.
2) Learning about others' relationships made me realize that neither of us had really chosen to act this way - the ADD behaviors, or the anger and resentment on my part. It made it a lot easier to start to put it behind me.
It will take a long time, but for the first time in a long time, there's hope.
still there...
Submitted by Clarity on
There is only so far you can go when an ADD spouse won't commit to educating themselves and work with a good therapist. Those outside of the relationship have no idea about the interaction that goes on between a couple dealing with ADD, professional, friend or family. It really was like an act of God when we discovered there could be something like ADD going on. Finding a doctor who was familiar with it was another adventure. I found a number of counselors who thought Adult ADD did not exist. Our concerns are certainly valid. The truth is I know what's going on now but, I still feel as if I'm living in some alternate reality. He's the one on medication but, I'm the one with the problem.
In a way...
Submitted by Flower Lady on
In my case it was our family doctor who poo-pooed the idea of ADHD...even with all the research I did--like you--he still was not convinced that ADHD even exists. He believes it's just a lot of psychological babble (his words). Of course, my husband jumped on that as proof there was nothing wrong with him and that it was all me...I was the problem...the nag...the witch. I wouldn't back down, though....kept at it and finally my husband saw a doctor who not only thought he had ADHD but OCD as well....hallelujah.
Hang in there....I know how damned hard this is...how frustrating. You begin to doubt yourself and wonder just how many times do you have to bang your head against the same wall.
We had this problem too
Submitted by Miss Behaven on
We are both ADD and have issues with therapist making wrong assumptions. I am the outspoken and strong woman and hubby is the quiet intellectual. There fore I must be a domineering, aggressive, bitch. Or hubby is a emasculated, passive aggressive, push over. Or whatever *sigh*
I took a while to find a family therapist who understands different people have different personality types (ADD or not) and it doesn't have anything to do with gender stereotypes. And also to understand that my Hubby is happy to let me "wear the pants" in our relationship and that being a feminist doesn't make you a man hater!
There's a reason why caregivers have therapy groups
Submitted by ioni23 on
There's a reason why caregivers have therapy groups of their own. Ask anyone who ever cared for an alzheimer's patient long-term. Someone significantly more wise than me once said:
"When someone has a mental disorder it is not their fault. What that sounds like to you is that you have no right to be angry and frustrated when the effects of their disorder take their toll on your sense of patience, compassion, and sanity. Those who say that feeling angry is wrong are those who have never been in your position. Think of it this way: If your significant other had tuberculosis it wouldn't be their fault either, but you wouldn't let them cough on you."
I know, eye-opening isn't it?
What the person was saying is that feeling angry and frustrated is valid and normal. Not one person in the world (especially yourself) should make you feel ashamed for those feelings. I guarantee you, the ADD/ADHD-afflicted person knows anger and frustration as well if not better than you do, so you aren't alone in that.
What books like "The Dance Of Anger" try to teach you is how to prevent anger from dictating your actions, allowing you to retain control. It does not mean not 'getting angry'. It does mean you, rather than your rage, call the shots.
Take the caregiver who's husband of 40 years is deep in the throes of Alzheimer's. They are at the stage where all memory of their former life is lost. Let's really complicate things by having his 'new' personality be aggressive, violent, abusive, foul-mouthed. day after day of being screamed at by this person you've abandoned your twilight ambitions to care for. One day the new personality turns up the intensity to the point that you, caregiver, grab a broom handle and beat the snot out of them. Understandable? Sure.
Now, in one single action, every feeling you ever had, no matter how valid, will be heard by no one. Immediately you've become the bad guy, and done something you're probably desperately ashamed of. Books like "the dance" give you skills to prevent that.
Yes, yes, ADD/ADHD is by no means as severely incapacitating as Alzheimers and is infinitely more treatable, i got that. You get the idea. Both are just as capable of driving you, the 'other', over the edge.
You have to decide what you are willing to put up with.