"Most women subconsciously gravitate towards men who accord her the same level – or lack – of value and empathy our fathers did. So if your father neglected to let you know how special and valuable you are, you may attract similar relationships with men in your adult life, unaware that you deserve better." Psychologist Dr Linda Nielsen
I was moved to write this:
"The tears mean something", he said.
"Oh, they are nothing. I had a good childhood."
"Your eyes filled up when you spoke of your father. That means something."
"Oh it's just grief that he died."
"Do you miss him?"
"Hmmmmm? What?"
"Do you miss him?"
"What do you mean?" I said, not able to focus my thoughts.
"Do you miss him?"
"Hmmmmm...can't say. He was honest and hard working and I was proud to have him for a father."
"Do you miss him?"
"He was a good man."
"Do you miss him?" He was relentless.
"In what way?"
"Do you miss him?"
Silence.
"I so wanted him to like me, to notice me, to see and hear me."
Silence.
I post this on this forum to ask women here. What was your relationship with your father? Have some of us been conditioned to not expect much connection? Is there a way to become more functional directing a family toward loving wholeness? Expecting and directing others how to love us and show it? Permitting ourselves to feel worthy of attention, respect and love? I have not demanded attention....even thought that was "selfish" to want attention. I didn't get attention. Not now. Not then. This is my part of our inability to communicate and connect.
Interesting questions
Submitted by AlmaVera on
Jenna-
I would have told you that I was closer to my dad than my mom. My mom was emotionally abusive and narcissistic. My dad was an ACOA. My mom brought out the worst in him, and he also had his own unhealed stuff from his childhood. He was terribly strict with me, and very overprotective.
Right around the time I graduated high school, he turned 40 and went through a mid-life crisis. He left, and we were in very little contact for years. I had to quit college, where I'd had a scholarship, to take care of my mom and younger brother. We lived in pretty rough circumstances for a number of years.
Eventually, closer to when I was getting married (in my mid-30s), we reestablished our relationship. We've gotten steadily closer, and he was tremendously supportive during my divorce and since. He's been amazing since my car accident last summer and during my recovery. He has been quick to tell me when he thinks I'm settling for poor treatment from men, too. I found out during that time that he'd been in counseling for years, specifically for men who had been abusive -- by his own choice. That said a lot to me about him.
Interestingly, when I was married, my ex would bring up my father's leaving, and accuse me of having insecurity and a fear of abandonment due to it, and tell me I was unfairly projecting it onto him. He was telling me this while he was having an emotional affair with a co-worker, by the way, but he knew how to use the information as a weapon. What I realized then was that I did have a fear, but not so much of physical abandonment as emotional. And that came from my mom more than my dad. I knew, even as a kid, that despite his strictness and really high expectations of me, he did love me the best he could. My mom, however...
I have also read theories that we pick partners based on the parent we had the worst relationship with -- in the hopes that we will be able to heal that relationship this time around. That really fits me with my mom. I didn't see it in the beginning in either of the men I loved, but eventually I did. One turned out to be needy and narcissistic and abusive, like she was, and the other was emotionally unavailable, critical and angry, also like she was. I did have a pattern of the men in my life letting me down at times I needed them, and I think that also left me with a thought in the back of my head that "men eventually leave me." They were people who had not treated me badly as such, but it seemed it was not difficult for them to walk away from me. That didn't really leave me feeling like I shouldn't ask for anything, but more with a feeling like there was nothing that special about me that they'd miss having me in their lives. I'm afraid that my relationship history still leaves me fighting that feeling. :(
As for being conditioned to not expect much connection? Yes. Most definitely. I had an a-ha moment this past summer, when some of my friends treated me with such kindness after my accident and surgery. I realized that I always tried to do those things for others, but I have never expected the same towards me. Quite the opposite, in fact. Not that I haven't wanted to be loved and cared for -- I did...it just didn't happen before because I'd surrounded myself with people who treated me the way I'd always been treated. And it felt wrong to ask for more. What struck me about my friends was how 'normal' it was for them to be caring and giving, and I realized that my situation had been the messed up one. I did deserve love and respect and kindness just as much as anyone else did. Why wouldn't I?! It's kind of sad that that was such a revelation, but it was.
So, yes, I do think you can start to think differently, but it is hard. It is part of leading by example, but also about setting boundaries. And expect push-back when you start asking to be treated better, believe me. Some people don't like a challenge to their status quo. But you can and more importantly, need to express what you want and what you won't accept from people. Nobody can read minds, so we need to communicate it.
And sadly, you may find that there are those in your life who simply will not choose to treat you better. I had to let a couple people go, rather than set two very different standards for what I'd allow. I had to see that their treatment was actually toxic to me, and their refusal to treat me better was really a form of self-selection -- they were choosing to take themselves out of my life. I have done my best to minimize negative and toxic relationships, and while it it's hard to lose people you care about, it has made life overall better. I've also made it a point from the time he was born that I try to instill a sense of empathy and compassion in my son. And even though he's a tween now, I can still see it in him. ;)
Dear AlmaVera
Submitted by jennalemone on
I know people who grew up being doted upon. I used to dislike those people.... they come with an air of entitlement. I, on the other hand, have an air of someone who feels most comfortable behind the scenes. I have to be over qualified for a job before I feel I am good enough. When I work with someone who is verbally telling people they are qualified and I can see they are not, I get angry at their impudence. It seems easier for them because they feel worthy even if they are making mistakes and not fulfilling their promises. I have anxiety if I am not nearly perfect. I guess I can see why someone like me gets tied in with someone like my Dh. I am willing to work behind the scenes to provide for my family. He was a traveling salesman who relied on his verbal persuasion for a living.
AlmaVera, it sounds like your mother was more like a child and you had to be her parent. Then while you were in the parent mode your husband came along and you were the parent again. We tend to love people like you. I have friends who had to grow up fast when they were children. We forget that there is a young child in there who needs to be taken care of and loved too. I guess that is our work for ourselves now. Permitting ourselves to relax, find out what our needs and desires are and give some time and attention to ourselves. I don't even know what I want...It has been so long that I granted myself any desires. I always wanted my family's happiness, health. And I thought they would love me for my sacrifices and work. That was fine, but my personality I had when I was younger seems to have gotten rusty. I tend to not trust people who have TOO MUCH personality. Dh has used personality as his only character trait...that is why people outside of our marriage think he is such a great guy....but it is talk, jokes, fun....No substance for a family to grow together or trust. Just smiles and talk....when your are young and cute...that works. When you get older and people have to partner with someone like that....It creates resentment. People love a person who makes them feel good to be around. Dh has short term casual friends but any partnerships where he is expected to work are shortlived. I have been the invisible worker bee. Not the object of affection. If I want to be loved now, I have to respect and love myself and also be a happy, soulful, entity who people can see and hear. I must express myself so that I open the doors to being loved and show people who I am rather sit seething behind the work.
Alma, I hope you will find love and care. It sounds like you have done your share of loving and caring.
That made me cry, Jenna
Submitted by AlmaVera on
Thank you. I just got to work after my first visit to a speech therapist. It's been 10 months since my concussion, and I'm finally able to start therapy. I didn't know I'd have a bunch of tests, and hadn't taken anything but my thyroid this morning. I'm a bit emotional and frayed from that, and your last line was just very, very sweet.
" If I want to be loved now, I have to respect and love myself and also be a happy, soulful, entity who people can see and hear. I must express myself so that I open the doors to being loved and show people who I am rather sit seething behind the work."
This is exactly the thing I told myself, too, once I got to the point of realizing that I deserve love, just because I am, not because of what I do. I knew that if I wanted to be loved for me, I had to take the risk to show who I actually am. I realized that, like you, so much of who I was, who I wanted to be when I was young, had just been driven so far underground that I had to really dig deep to find out what was me, and what was who I was told I should be.
It has actually been an adventure, and I will tell you, it has added years back on to my life. I'm not kidding -- you know things were crazy in your life when you go to your doctor for your annual physical, while you're in the middle of a contentious divorce from an abusive man with mental health issues, starting over on your own, and your doctor tells you that you look younger than you have in years!! :) It was because I was going out there and diving headfirst into life again. (And no, that's not how I got my concussion. Ha!)
For example, ever since I was little, I loved to dance. I have heard stories of how I danced in front of the TV in my diapers when the Monkees were on, lol. I lived for the very rare school dances we had (I never danced with anyone by my girl friends, but I didn't care). But all of that was buried and gone by the time I met my husband. We danced very awkwardly once at our reception, and maybe a couple times at home, but we never went dancing. I was too self-conscious, esp after he started looking at other women. I could also never sing out loud on my own, only with at least one other person -- that goes back to childhood.
Dance was something I got into after my split. I do folk dancing, I'm now learning swing dancing, I've taken belly dance classes, and the most therapeutic thing I did was very early on. I thought I was going to a belly dance class, but I had the schedule wrong and it was a strip-tease fitness class. It was designed by a sexual assault survivor for women who had been assaulted or abused, to be able to feel 'at home' in their bodies again. At that first class, I couldn't even look in the mirror at myself, and I sobbed all the way home. But I knew that meant it was something I needed to conquer. Within a year and a half, I was a substitute teacher for that class, choreographing my own songs. I'll never forget the look on my ex-H's face when I told him - that was worth it all by itself! :) It was the same with singing. I haven't yet done a solo at karaoke, but I have gone up with just one other person. And with the guy I most recently dated, I was actually so comfortable with him that we sang duets in the car together twice. That may not sound like much, but it was huge to me. I even danced in front of him once. So, no matter how things ended up between us, I will always be grateful to him for allowing me the comfort to do those things. But you are right -- I did not feel like we were partners either, nor that I was the object of his affection. So much of the time, I felt my petals closing back up, if not downright withering.
And did I mention that I just turned 50? :) So, don't give up!!! If I can do these things, you definitely can!!! You are so right -- find those things about you that make you, YOU and bring them out into the sunshine again. You don't have to lose that part of you that cares about people -- just extend it to yourself, too. *hugs*
This is Interesting ...jennalemone
Submitted by kellyj on
I know people who grew up being doted upon. I used to dislike those people.... they come with an air of entitlement.
This caught my eye because I have been on both sides of this feeling myself...having it and from being disliked for it. And the being disliked for it came without any input from me all....even from my own sister. I'll make an attempt to make this brief (lol)........
My mother had a tendencies to be smothering and judicial in where she put her (doting). And because she grew up around and only having 2 girls before me.....she was definitely a female oriented individual. Outside of my Dad or her father.....I was only the third male of the species she had any real contact with and I was without doubt....a complete bewilderment to my mother in any shape or form. She had no idea what to do with me since what seemed to work with my sisters and every other female family member she had ever encountered...did not work with me. Period. She had no idea what to do!
But that's not to say she did not try....and try was by doing the only thing she knew and I wanted nothing to do with this to the point of embarrassment. Trying to engage me or lavish attention on me made me run! For my sisters however...this was a sign of approval. All it did for me was go ....yikes, get me out of here!
So the point here is....my sister kind of developed this same way of thinking about me as the little brother who had it good or was entitled in some way from seeing her attempts at this kind of attention.....the kind she wanted. I on the other hand did not want this kind of attention at all in the first place ( unwanted, unwelcome, unsolicited and I didn't care) and would have preferred in all ways not to have it and did my best to get my mom to stop. There were times I was literally squirming my way away from my father who was telling her at the same time "Jesus ....leave him alone!" Coming from the male side of things seeing that trying to apply female thinking and attention to a little boy was clearly what she was doing and was feeling squirmy himself. lol And I ended up like you in that way..... I, on the other hand, have an air of someone who feels most comfortable behind the scenes. I have to be over qualified for a job before I feel I am good enough. When I work with someone who is verbally telling people they are qualified and I can see they are not, I get angry at their impudence.
The point I'm trying to make is this......my sister perceived me as getting the attention she was accustomed to and welcomed and my mother used as a reward so she assumed that I was somehow entitled or special because of how it was being distributed. For me on the other hand.....I didn't want it in the first place and now mh sister has this attitude towards me. I spent more time playing this down than I did anything else around my sister because of this assumption that she had that I I thought I was special. I didn't think I was special at all in light of my ADHD and all the negative things that went with that....on the contrary...quite the opposite.
To be clear....this had to do with this whole mother daughter body image thing that leads to all kinds of things like eating disorders etc....I was just a skinny kid who was really active and was in good shape because of the sports I did. This was just a consequence of that but I didn't give it a second thought because that was not the reason I did the things I did...it just came with it. So when my Mom would praise me for being thin or looking nice in clothes (I'm saying when I was even in grade school) not only did I not get it, it made me embarrassed and if anything...was pointing out that I was skinny which for a guy....is the opposite of what you want to hear especially around any other guy. Which she was likely to do at times with my friends. AAARRRRGGGGG!!! So from my sisters vantage point...her being short and a tendency to be a little heavy well......you get the rest.
The point being you never know what the other person is thinking or how they feel even if it appears that they are luckier or have had more opportunity than you. That thing you said is a common one it seems with women and the work place too...having to be better or work harder to ge the same things as a man. And for good reason I think . I've had the same experience with because of my ADHD even though I'm a guy..... I've had to prove myself repeatedly because for a different reason than gender but it's a very similar thing. i can see the pit fal to this in what I just said seeing me from a woman;s side if they are also taking this into consideration just like my sister did with me about me being skinny and she being heavier. In either case....I had no choice in the matter whether I wanted to be or not but I also didn't feel the need to flaunt it like in my sister's case where I would do my best to avert attention away from me at all costs because...even though I didn't understand why.....I clearly understood my sisters attitude and tone. That did not escape me let me tell you! And I didn't even realize any of this until just this last year when my older sister actually told me??? I was like....really?? OMG that makes so much sense. I wished someone would have filled me in back then! lol It's why I also dislike someone who I work with who comes in and says they can do this thing so well and then it appears that they can't. I can get real pissy with that one too.
J