Hello everyone... I am the non-adhd person. I am really scared about getting married! I just don't know if I have the patience for this. I hate to say it but I feel like a mother to a 36 year old kid. I have read other peoples struggles and I totally relate. He moves stuff or throws things away but doesn't believe he did it. We are the only 2 in the house! (He says "if I did that then I am sorry" I want to strangle him when he says that!!) I make a chore list because he "doesn't know what to do" so he wanted it written down... he has never looked at it. I have to every morning write on a piece of paper what 2 things I need him to do. I have to constantly tell him to do stuff that should be just normal things. It's very frustrating. He also believes he is "handling it" but he isn't. He feels he is trying but I don't see it. It almost seems like he really has no insight into himself if that makes sense. Also I feel alone most of the time. I talk to him but he can't emotionally be there. He can repeat what I said but that's just repeating...no emotional connection there, is this normal for adhd?
He really is a sweet guy and loves me more than anyone could. But social skills are horrible. I try to get him to read articles or books but he doesn't. It's really hard since we work different shifts so the weekends are when we really see each other. How do you guys handle this stuff? Any coping skills or techniques you could help me to learn? I would like to put the wedding off but it would kill him and I feel it's just to late to stop it (Sept 30th). I fear the "forever" part. HELP!!!
Thanks!
shanadawn, welcome, and social skills
Submitted by dedelight4 on
Hello, and welcome to the forum, but sorry you are in this same type scenario as many of the rest of us. Questions: Is your fiance under a doctors care, and on medication, or maybe behavioral therapy? just asking. My adhd husband was diagnosed in 2007, when he was 51, and takes meds, but he doesn't take them correctly, and there's no behavior therapy. He won't read the ADHD books. He did listen to "Driven to Distraction", by Dr. Hollowell, when he was first diagnosed, but he understood it as the ADHD was more of a "gift", than it was something difficult that needed to be addressed. I found that really frustrating, because he couldn't "relate" at all, (and still can't/won't) and try to empathize with my feelings, or understand them. (totally self focused)
Also, how does he SEE his ADHD? Does he see it as a focus problem for himself? or as "not that big of a deal"? etc. My DH only sees his as a "focus' problem for himself, and not so much a problem for relationships. But, THAT is his denial talking. He has a very hard time admitting anything "personal" about himself, and has learned to "hide" and project what he thinks other people want to see.
Yes, the lack of social skills thing is a huge thing. my husband has very bad social skills, and also is a "blamer", so that he doesn't feel the shame of things he can't do, or doesn't think he can do. Plus, his mother did this, (also had mental disorder) and so he got it by hereditary as well as learning it from his parents interactions. It's not impossible to overcome, but one person can't do it alone. Some of the others here, can give you MORE help with this, I think. I haven't been that successful in my own marriage, but it's hard to when the ADHD spouse won't confront their own issues, so it makes the marriage very lopsided and very uneven, in emotional ways, household chore ways, etc. You would end up doing most of the work in pretty much all areas, if he won't address his ADHD headon, along WITH you. Others may disagree with me, but that's what this forum is for. Also, Melissa's books are wonderful, and she has GREAT blogs on here for you to read.
I would advise you to "not" get married until you had a real good face to face discussion (or several) about where you both stand with his ADHD. It doesn't get "better", from love or having someone walk through life with them. It's just NOT the same as with non-ADHD relationships. They need help....professional help, and both people need to work together. Sad to say, my husband never wanted to do this, and our marriage is terribly lopsided and I"ve been very lonely all these years. I left for a year, but recently came back to change some legal stuff and get my name off of most things. etc., and pretty much every area of our lives is a mess. (the house, relationship, jobs, chores) He is really trying "hard" lately, but it's a little "a lot too late" for me. I struggle now in actually believing what he says. And, it took me distancing myself emotionally from him before I could really achieve what I needed to do.
As many would say, the courtship phase can be pretty good, and even exciting, but when the marriage happens, their FOCUS turns away from the spouse, and they become overwhelmed very fast with "life". I don't want to see that happen to you also. Learn all you can first, and please take it slow. Don't rush into marriage from feelings.....I wish someone had told me this, and I had known about ADHD in the beginning. A whole lot would be different right now, I think.
All the best to you today.
Shanedawn Taking From Dede Here
Submitted by kellyj on
Shanedawn, Dede is right and I have to agree with her here. I'm the ADHD guy in the room, but I am not the ADHD person I was in the past and it can change but that it only the "potentential" to change, it is no guarantee it will? I will say this again in another way because this is the most important part to understand. A person with ADHD "can change"....."it is possible"......but, "it will NOT CHANGE", until that person does the things that Dede is saying and perhaps, she is giving you the indicators or signs, that it "has or not". The thing that "must change first".....before anything else can change, is seeing both......the good and the bad, together at the same time, then doing the math. If you are both.....your strengths and weakness's....then you have two parts that make you as the whole person you are? Both good and bad qualities and I mean that as an objective "good" and "bad" and making that not a judgment, but a means to rate or access how well you are doing in any area of your life? To say....I did "badly" or "poorly" today...is just how your day went.....it's not a judgment or a permanent mark on your record for ever? But as a means to rate....."how well you're doing" or "what your status or state" you are in right now.....you could use this as a means to say....on a scale from 1 to 10....how well did you do today? And each day, you could do the same thing and put yourself on that scale to measure your performance or "how you are and how well you did and determine ...how you are doing, as of toady. And after a time or a period of a month or even a year.....you could do a year to date comparison....or a weekly comparison....( or any time frame you choose ) and put that on a graph or chart and show your progression over time either positive or negative by looking at the chart or graph?
If you say, take two people....and your value is a 2....then in terms of finding another person to be with....another 2 would be a good match? Doing the math here......2 + 2 = 4. Two together....is greater than the sum of the individuals alone? And I'm using this is an "aggrigate" or "aggrigate" of everything you bring with you on the poistive end ....which is true for the most part. Evereyone has things they offer and can contribute in a positive way? Those things are different from one person to the next...so you have to look at what you think is most valuable or what is complimentary to what you have to contribute and then plug them into the math equation ( the simple one ) of x + y = ( ). I don't want to get off on any obscure tangent because it really is as simple as this to understand just as the basic concept.
So, the basic concept with two people goes like this:
2 + 2 = 4 That is a balanced equation and both people contribute equally to the sum or net solution or answer.
2 + 1 = 3 One person contribute more than the other, and the difference between the two equations is the differnece of 1. 4 is one greater than 3.
2 + 0 = 2 One person contributes, the other person does not. The difference is now 2. 4 is 2 greater....than 2.
2 + -1 = 1 Now, for what ever reason....one person, is causing a deficit and going into the negative. 4 is now 3 times more or the difference of 3, going from 4 to 1 = 3 as the difference from the original 4 as being the answer or solution.
2 + -2 = 0 At this point....one person is adding 2 in...and one person is subtracting 2 back out. One shovel of dirt out of the hole....and then one shovel of dirt back into the hole with means...for every bit of energy or part the one person puts in by digging out or in digging that hole.....the other person is filling it back in....in equal amounts and the net result is "0". Assuming in this case....that a "hole" is what you want and what you both are trying to do together? Or for that matter.....what you both agreed on that you want and both people want a "hole". You could take that and apply it to anything? Building something, or getting something or anything you choose.
This, as I am saying it, is the 'aggregate" or "total sum" of what each person has to offer and put into the relationship. Basically, what this amounts to is simply critical thinking. Taking the positives and subtracting the negatives and coming to a simple answer or solution? You HAVE TO ....and I mean, you cannot do this any other way.....YOU HAVE TO look at the "positives"...and look at the "negatives"...and then do the simply math of adding them together and arriving at a simple answer or solution? That means, each person....has both good and bad and each person has to do their own math, and arrive at an answer that tells them what they have to offer and where there own deficiets are? And then....take that "accurate " or complete accessment...and now add in the other person to get the "over-all" answer you are looking for? If it's that simple....and you have all the cards laid out in front of you on the table like that....then it's not that difficult to see who is what here? This is not about "potentential someday in the future"....this is about "right now" today....as of this moment? A person might do better and improve in anything, and then again...they might not? The future is only what you think or imagine it might be based on what you use "today" as a means to predict it? If you are not using critical thinking....in this way to use a means to predict or extrapolate from based on the "facts of now".....then you are using some other means to do so....and those other means are the very thing in question here?
What are those other means....one might use.....to make a decision without this kind of information right out there in the open where everyone else can see it? You take their word for it and believe them? Or you look for yourself, and then do the math? You're dreams of the future together....and his "dreams" of the future together.....are only wishful thinking? Actually more closer to "magical thinking"....and putting the other person into your dreams?
What Dede brought up, is exactly it I think? I know I did this and I know I was like this too.....I also know I am not doing it now....because I see all the deficits and all the problems my ADHD has the potential in causing others. And the fact is....I see all the way my ADHD causes problems for me every single day. It;s always a problem for me all the time....and I have to constantly be reminded to look and check and not forget to see ( and look ) to make sure I'm not missing anything of these things? The other comments made here are all saying it in different ways and it is really a difficult thing to master and get a handle on and not miss any one of these areas that I have to constatnly monitor and make sure I check and see? If I don't...is when it will effect others negatively but in relality.....it is effecting ( both) myself and others at the same time?
And what I really need most....from a partner is some one who will "work with me"....in order to work as a team and use my strengths to offset the weakness's that they might have? I have both....strengths and weakness's due to my ADHD and the simply obvious thing to do....is use my strengths to help offset or compnesate for my weakness's whichy will end up as not having any negative affect? If my personal equation in this is 4 + -2 = 2.....then I'm having a good day and I'm contributing equally my (2)...into the equation of my relationship with other people? If you look at those components.....I've got a +4 and a -2 in there . If you only look at my -2.....then you will miss the +4 that I am contributing and the + 2 or 2 that comes out square? That's what I mean by working with me.
If all I am....is the -2 due to the negatives that my ADHD imposes....and I'm contributing +4....to make up the difference....then the end result is still 2 and I am an equal partner in the relationship but that means, the other person has to see this and step back and understand this is kind of how it works? But as long as I own my negatives as well as my postives and I do my part to make it happen....then that is what is possible having ADHD and that can change from the negative.
But ...a person in denial of their negatives.....cannot see them or will not look? They can only see their positives....and they cannot see their negatives? With no ability to do this...then there is not critical thinking. And with no ciritical thinking...they will think ( some how by magic ) that 2 + -2 = 4
And, as anyone looking at this now even a 1rst grader at that level of math knows....that there is no way, no how that 2 - 2 = 4. Yet...a person who is in denial and like Dede so eloquently stated.....they will be convinced that somehow by magic...2 + -2 = 4...when in reality.......2 + -2 = 0. There is no way around this. 2 + 2 = 4.....and that is and always will be, there is no other answer than that. No critical thinking.....means....denial of the "bad" and only seeing the "good". When that happens....you can never solve any problems and they will remain "unsolved" until you can do this.
So the question isn't should you be with someone with ADHD.....the question is.....are they doing this.....or are they in denial? If they are where I am...then they can work with you as you can work with them equally and fairly to make up for any deficits and their shouldn't be any conflicts over that part and just discussing them or coming to answers or solutions as you go? If they are in denail of "the bad" or the "negatives" about themselves.....they think there aren't any....when really there are?
And that is exactly what I said yesterday when I watch my wife go ( out there somewhere in her head when confronted with something "negative about herself" ) when she goes "who knows??? " in her head....in order to deny that she "is like that" or "did that thing"......it really is like that old childhood saying or joke ( very old to the point it's probably long forgotten now )
"When they were handing out the brains......you thought they said "Trains"....and so you told them you didn't want any." I know that one first hand, since it was told to me on occasion when I was actually not using my head? It was probably a fitting description of what I looked like but.....that was when I was a child growing up......I 've since tried to improve from that place....all things considered. LOL I don't think age is necessarily the marker here? Either you see it...or you don't....and if someone "can't see it" and everyone else does ,or they deny it, lie about it or try to blame others or make excuses.....then I think that's the problem more than it ( for example ) ...I have a bad day and I miss something like this? The ADHD is still there.....if I miss something, it doesn't mean I don't or can't see it and to the point....there is no need to deny it.....I know it because I am watching and looking and monitoring myself....all the time for these very things? How could I not know it and in fact....how could I deny it once I do? That really would be stupid.....which is why it looks like that when you try to other people? It's the denial that is stupid.....the rest are just challenges, problems and things you have to work on and improve on over time....which is all there is left once you know what you are seeing and know what you need to do to compensate and turn the negatives into plosives. I can't say I'm perfect or even do this all the time...but I am aware of it all the time...and I know how to do the math.
And I would be the first one to say to you....if he is not where I am and at that place in the process just like Dede is saying....there is no guarantee he will....( if he;s not now ) which is a risky gamble to take based on potential....not what is happening right now today? In the NOW...........and the power of NOW ( taking from Echart Tolle in the book that shares the same name ) The past is gone....and the future does not exist yet.....all you have and all you know is right now this very minute and the same applies to him.
J
Take a pause
Submitted by shattered expec... on
Before you get married, you have to be aligned on religion, kids, money, etc. But what nobody talks about is that after you get married your health is no longer your own business. Once you're married your health is extremely important to the other spouse - imagine if you had a cancer diagnosis that you hid from them. In your case, you have a partner that has a mental health condition, and unless they address it it will continue to push you down the path outlined in Melissa's book. You'll notice nobody comes to this website and says "hey my spouse had ADD and it never caused a problem." If you're here you're looking for help because it's a problem.
I encourage you to read through the other comments here about spouses that suffered through 40 years of an ADHD marriage, only to find out what was going on after so long. You at least have the knowledge that it's ADHD up front. I think you have a few options. First, you could leave completely. Second, you could pause the marriage. Third, you can get married. No matter what you do a full treatment has to come from both of you. Only you are on board so far, so I recommend you don't marry until your partner commits to treatment and sticks with it for the right reasons. You can always make up an excuse for why you're delaying the wedding, only you and your partner have to know the truth.
It takes two to tango.
Submitted by smd1409 on
I agree with what Shattered expectations said regarding how you should set some criteria right at the very beginning. You have a chance to start off well. If I had to make a suggestion literally tell him that this marriage won't work unless he makes a constant attempt to improve on his ADHD.
However it's not just him that needs to change. To ask him to change only is completely unfair on him. Think about it. He is having to change his life and his habits in order to become better and live with you. How unfair is it that you make it all about him and do not do the same?
Your boyfriend actually sounds like he's off to a good start. He actually tries and accepts his mistakes and he says sorry for the wrong he does. If you take a look at the other posts here a large number of them do not have that in their ADHD spouse. He doesn't seem to have lost his self esteem yet and so is unlikely to have anger tantrums. His intact self esteem also means he's more likely to be open in trying out new methods to improve on his ADHD. You've got a very strong chance to make this all work.
Your main focus should be on finding the right methods. Everything you've listed so far will not be common sense to someone with ADHD. If I know ADHD people, both from the posts here, from books and from my own experience, he moves stuff or throws it away in an attempt to become more organised, yet in a futile way and then his ADHD makes things worse by making him forget about it. He doesn't know what to do because of a low capacity for overwhelm and pressure leading him to freeze. He's probably unable to see on a micro level meaning he struggles to see what needs to be done next, focusing on how 'big' a project something is. He can't remember those two things and to look at the notes because his ADHD means he always forgets to check, and if he's like me maybe even seconds after reminders. He feels like he's done enough because he made that attempt to organise except it fell apart. Imagine how when you make an effort, it turns out successful. He makes the same, if not the very exact amount of effort and it fails. If you feel accomplished by one efforts, so will he. It just so turns out that he ADHD stopped him from succeeding whereas for you there was no obstacle. So of course he'll feel accomplished.
Everything I've stated in bold is everything that ADHD people suffer from but in different forms. Everything you and he has done has been fruitless because those methods were not ADHD friendly and so not common sense to him at all. Common sense to a PhD physicist will not be common sense to a PhD chemist. Both have PhDs, but their foundations mean different things seem like common sense to them. Your focus here should be on finding the right methods to improve on his ADHD. There are ADHD help books which give you tips on how to overcome these ADHD obstacles. Melissa Orlov's 'couples guide to thriving with ADHD' from what I've experienced mainly helps brings that love, acceptance and understanding to the relationship while other books focus more on their daily structure and so organisational skills such as 'ADD friendly ways to organise your life'. Just get started on them with your husband and work together on it is the advice I can give you here.
Thank you
Submitted by shanadawn26 on
Thank you for your information. Would you happen to know of some specific books that focus on their daily skills? Thanks again!
Books I can suggested are limited
Submitted by smd1409 on
The books I can suggest are limited simply because I am still trying to mess around and apply what I've learnt from the two I've mentioned already, however the ADD friendly ways book does focus on daily skills quite well and gives you good tips as well as being ADD friendly in terms of writing. They keep chapters and paragraphs short, use bulletpoints and highlight the main points in boxes.
Because ADHD has a large variation in itself, the tips in the book (as well as any other) can only take you so far, you need to tweak and combine them to suit your own lifestyle. Like there is this one way to overcome an ADHD habit of constantly switching between hobbies which is to set a week to do one then switch to another in another week. For me I get bored of things quite quickly and cannot deal with schedules, and so I need to be a bit more random about it. I'll start a hobby, get bored within a day and I combine it with how another tactic which is to sprint to the finish line i.e. when you start things, do them in large chunks. To stop myself from being overwhelmed later (another ADHD problem), I'll use another tactic which is to write notes on what happened so far and what I was planning on doing next when I stop that hobby to stop myself from feeling overwhelmed later and putting me off from starting it again. I also stop on a point which makes sense to stop at if I can. Then I'll switch to another hobby and repeat. Then repeat. Soon enough I'll find myself attracted to the first hobby and then restart the cycle over again. This can actually even be applied to the same exact thing as well. As in if I'm studying psychology I might read one book until I get bored, then start on reading psychology articles until I'm bored, then maybe start thinking about experiments and observing others actions until I get bored, then I might suddenly find myself wanting to read that first book again.
It doesn't have to be this complicated, this is because I've been constantly at it for about half a year now. At its most simple at the beginning I just used a tactic called catching your mood, which means doing things when you feel like it because I know my mood changes in the most random ways. Within seconds sometimes actually. I might not feel like doing dishes when it needs to be done then suddenly I'll find that a few minutes later I'll suddenly feel slightly okay with it at which point I jump on the chance and do as much as I can until I lose that mood (which is regularly until I finish washing them all). Therefore although catching my mood sounds like an awful thing to do i.e. I'll do it when I feel like it and not when you want me to all the time, on many occasions it technically just means I'll probably do it in a few moments rather than in a few days time or until you get sick and tired and do it yourself if I had forced myself to listen to you. It's also just how my brain is wired so I can't help the rules I'm constrained to for the time being. My wife just has to accept it, at least for the time being. The trade off is that I do the dishes for her all the time, along many other things that she would like to see me do.
Then again, it's your boyfriend who will probably have to find all these solutions. It starts off hard but once they can start building habits of the tactics they use it becomes a lot easier to improve on themselves.
Thank you all
Submitted by shanadawn26 on
Thank you for your honesty. No he seems to only see his memory an issue and sometimes his focus. He was on numerous adhd meds as a child. As an adult he was on Adderall and he had no emotional responses... I swear he was just there most of the time. I finally got him to go back and she put him on Strattera but that's $80 even with insurance. So waiting for pay day. No other treatment. I at least don't feel so alone now with this site but I do need to talk to him again. I feel like I could just record my "talks" then I wouldn't have to say them over and over again! Thanks again for your help!
Think about YOUR future.
Submitted by sickandtired on
Hi. I read your post, and after being in an 11 year relationship with someone like this, I really wish I could have gone back in time and ended it much earlier than I did. I am so glad I never married him. Read my old posts, and you can see what is likely in store for you as the years go on. Forgetfulness is only one symptom of ADHD. Your relationship is still new; you are still enjoying his hyper focus, and you're not tied down with children that you will basically have to raise yourself without his help, or in spite of him. It troubles me that you would go through with a wedding you are considering delaying only because of HIS feelings. Are you marrying him because you feel sorry for him?. Ask yourself what are YOU really feeling? I can tell you it never gets better over time, only worse as the thrill of a new relationship fades and the everyday responsibilities of life are not handled by you both as a couple. If you marry him, you will end up doing Everything and being frustrated and depressed. There are so many healthy, positive, responsible people out there to choose from. Please, for your own welfare, leave this guy and find somebody else. I did, and it changed my life so much for the better.
Sickandtired ......I Went Back to Our Conversations
Submitted by kellyj on
at the time when you when you BF had locked himself in his room and the entire drama that went on plus.....the conversations we had about PTSD. Ironically, I got a surprise visit from a friend (husband ) of a woman my wife knows from work who has ADHD...and he and I have actually spent some times together just the two of us talking about our experiences plus....the fact that my wife and his wife are friends, work together and have done of a number of things together including going on a recent bussiness trip out of town. When my wife came home, she said they had their first "fight" together and I asked her what that was all about? It was basically about the fact that my wife needed to sleep ( and she has trouble sleeping ) and her friend was up watching something on her tabblet ( a show or something ) while she was trying to sleep but my wife goes to bed really early....much earlier than most in my experience. So the fight involved have to share a living space ( or motel room ) and some personal idiosycracies clashed...but my wife has a tendency to react and become hostile and at the end she said her friend told her she was being "mean".
This is so ironic and actually, something very important was said today by my friend which is what I wanted to share here with you as well. I basically was filling him in on some of the details and telling him straight up that the "sharing space" together and her PTSD really seemed to be the biggest issue for both of us. But as we have discussed this openly, and he's mentioned that sometimes he has to "yell" at his wife to get her attention or to get her to "stop".....either talking or interrupting which is her really bad habit that I actually stopped doing a long time ago. I can ...limit my talking in person and I can....not interrupt. I have simply learned how to do that and in person for the most part....I can have a normal conversation without taking over or interrupting during it? And I don't hyjack the conversation and only talk about what I want to talk about. I can listen and respond and do that quite well.....it is when I am pushed or put in to a position where someone is doing that and demanding or me both at the same time? In fact, as I was having this quite emotional conversation ( for me that is ) I was aware not to make this about my wife and not blame her for anything. I was telling him the difficulties I was having and what this was really all about which came right down to this place in the conversation where I said " You know, how C, will interupt you, or just keep on talking when you are trying to get a word in edge wise? And it's difficult to do because of this "stream of words just flowing none stop out of her mouth"....and how you said you have to yell at her sometimes to make her stop?" And he quickly yes "well yeah....if I want to get her attention sometimes since it the only way to do it? Otherwise she will just keep going and I finally will get angry with her."hyjack the conversation and only talk about what I want to talk about. I can listen and respond and do that quite well.....it is when I am pushed or put in to a position where someone is doing that and demanding or me both at the same time? In fact, as I was having this quite emotional conversation ( for me that is ) I was aware not to make this about my wife and not blame her for anything. I was telling him the difficulties I was having and what this was really all about which came right down to this place in the conversation where I said " You know, how C, will interupt you, or just keep on talking when you are trying to get a word in edge wise? And it's difficult to do because of this "stream of words just flowing none stop out of her mouth"....and how you said you have to yell at her sometimes to make her stop?" And he quickly yes "well yeah....if I want to get her attention sometimes since it the only way to do it? Otherwise she will just keep going and I finally will get angry with her."
And I said " well, D will do things like that but with her, she is reacting out of fear of something and she is doing that "Monk" thing you know? Where if it's not just "right" or something is happening that she can;'t control that causes some kind of reaction in her....she won't stop harping or coming at you because of it. To the point.....that "what ever it is that is hitting or stabbing at her " ( I took the kitchen knife and pretended to stab myself ( LOL ) and he went "don't cut yourself...I get it" LOL ) it is the same exact thing that from the sound of it, happened with D and C when they were in the motel room? Something C did, caused D to react...and we that happens....it's who ever did it or what ever is doing it....now becomes YOUR fault....for stabbing her or causing that reaction inside her? And then finally, after she starts to get mean....you will have to yell at her cause she won't let it go? So now, it;s your fault that you did this thing or didn't stop this thing from happening ( what ever it is that causes her to react ) and then, once you get angry and yell at her, just like end up having to do.....now you yelled at her and your the bad guy and you're the mean one because you did that? Like WTF right?"
And he said "Oh yeah, you're damned in you do, and damned it you don't but sometimes you have to do it or else she just won't stop and by that time I've already tried a few times to stop her and she just won't get the hint? But with her, she won't get angry and hostile.....she pause for a moment, and then say she sorry...because she knows she does it. It's the only reason I'm still with her......if she didn't do that, then it would be over a long time ago."
And my response to him was simply "Exactly" And the ironic message in this entire story is 3 people with ADHD.....one "Untreated and Undiagnosed" who has a host of other issues including being in denial of all of it? I've sat and had conversations with his wife.....and she is really bad at interupreting and she will get on a roll and you cannot get in there to talk sometimes? I can't say, that I really do this much or at all anymore ...it's just one of those things I learned not to do and I can listen and talk at the same time and pick up cues that says I need to stop or wait until the other person is finished. I m start or open my mouth, but even if I realize that I did something like interrupt....I immediately stop myself and say I'm sorry or excuse me. There is no fighting or conflict about it...and I certainly don't get angry "back" or even over react when someone gets irritated or I sense they are? And I really can't remember anyone having to yell at me to get me to stop speaking as I have seen with my friends wife? But I totally did what she does in my past......I just learned how to control it better is all? There is no conflict, fighting or arguing about any of this....and I definitely haven't seen any signs of that with my friends wife either? I......like her, respond in exactly the same way, which is the point of me mentioning this?
The bottom line here which was nice to hear from him today even if he didn't know exactly what he was saying that made me feel a little better right now, is the fact that both myself and his wife...are on medication and we both have a good understanding of what we do that is annoying to others? I don't here a lot of major complaints from .....other than her getting depressed and losing connection but she doesn't get angry at him for it...and doesn't blame that on anyone else? The irony here that I just can't not see is......my wife reacts "meanly" apparently to ADHD symptoms? The two people who seem to get on her nerves the most have ADHD themselves? How bout that for irony? My friends a woman though, and my wife has an easier time forgiving women, than she does with men which was kind of the reverse you had going with your BF? He seemed to be more hostile towards women......I think this is the same thing....same same......just the one you are not...is the bad guy here which ever gender that is? For what it's worth, since this just happened today?
J
PS Almost forgot. When my friend was over and I said " D, can't admit her part of this and she won't do anything about this issue she has? Either get some kind of medication or treatment so she can actually do something about it?" And his immediate response without thinking any further into it was " Well yeah.....if you admit it, then you'd HAVE TO do something about it.....otherwise you'd be a hypocrite" And my response to him was "It doesn't matter either way does it? Ones just worse than the other? "
We make our own Hell don't we? No free lunch as they say?
Counseling and meds can help, but can only do so much
Submitted by BigSurprise on
I'd say maybe you were too quick to accept the proposal. The fact that he's sweet makes things easier (less "volatile" relationship), but it's also really hard to deal with your own anger and resentment with a lovable person, so between all the love and hate you're probably in for some overwhelming doses of guilt. And it fells like the parent/child dynamic is already settling in. If you feel so bad already, think how you'll feel in 20 or 30 years. In my experience, it's easier to be in such a relationship as long as you keep lots of distance, don't share too much space and stuff, so that you have room to put things back where they belong and recharge your batteries before the next encounter - and even then it will be pretty exhausting.
The obvious remedies can do a lot of good, but won't get rid of the underlying issue. He'll always struggle to some extent, and so will you.
Have you tried talking about it calmly and in a friendly manner, so that he understands your doubts? He may not see how, but if you name the issues, chances are he'll make an effort to get and accept your perspective. If you both agree it may be too early to get married, and if he understands the reason, maybe that won't "kill him" as much as you think. Of course, there's always that low-self esteem, so the ADHD-ers often deal with such stuff more emotionally and treat it deeply personally, as another proof they're different, worse and unwanted, even if that's bs. It's really thin ice, so no matter what you do, you must tread very carefully.
But then, if it's the person you might want to spend the rest of your life with, it would be great to know he has the ability for compassion and you can find compromise even with such a delicate matter, wouldn't it? Because if you can't, then how do you expect to deal together with all future difficulties that life always brings, sooner or later? Will you feel safe, knowing that once trouble appears, he'll be a burden, not a support?
To Error is Human
Submitted by kellyj on
to forgive is Devine. The inability to forgive and let go, is really the most important aspect here I think? Intolerance, begins and ends with the inability to forgive I think?
J
Just give yourself time
Submitted by BigSurprise on
JJamieson, I'm not sure if I got it correctly, but I don't think it's about forgiveness and tolerance. Sure, those are important, sure, these help a lot. But marriage is also a contract, and to be able to keep it, you must know the conditions first, and then try to assess your ability to keep it. I'm just saying: give it time. Before you vow, make sure you know what you're signing up for. And then, if you think you will be able to keep the promise, get married. But if you think you won't, you'll possibly end up in trouble, and possibly break his heart even more.
This is not a decision to be taken lightly. If you're not sure, it may not be the right time yet.
I Can See Where that Got Taken Out of Context
Submitted by kellyj on
This is not the problem on the non-ADHD side and certainly not an answer ( at all ) for Shanadawn. I am referring to what I see as the problem with someone like my wife and in fact, maybe at the core of what is at the heart of being angry and staying angry and reacting in anger about so many things? Not being able to forgive.....and becoming rigid and intolerant.....might be at the heart of the matter...for someone who is always angry and at everything and is always negative? I guess that's an indicator of something I might look for and see if it is readily and easily doable? If someone has a difficult time letting go, and they stay angry or react instantly with anger.....one might think, they've got some anger in there, that needs to be resolved ( first ) before you get married?
The bottom line? Someone with ADHD may get overwhelmed and put upon and put in situations that they are not ready or prepared for? That would be standard and that defintely will happen when you have ADHD. Getting instantly angry and staying that way.....or........responding differently than that I beleive.....depends on how big a chip you are carrying around on your shoulder which has to do with harboring anger and resentment....more than it does ADHD? A person with ADHD can respond to the same things differently.......but the inability to forgive...and an intolerance to others....is all on the ADHD side of things as something that I'd look for....and see how he responds? I cannot say there is a bilogical commponent in there and I certainly know about emotional lability.....but I still contend, that the ability or capacity for forgiveness....is a quality you have or you don;t have.....despite ADHD? That quality can go a long long way and intolerance is the end result...when you do not have it?
I am also in absolute agreement with you. Give it time....and see if these qualities emerge? I think they are vitally important in the long haul. It is....what I see that is missing with my wife which is why she feels she has to leave? She cannot forgive. She has pent up anger and resentment from a life time of harboring it and never letting it go. It shows in everything she does. She does not have the ability to forgive and say she's sorry.....and admit where she is wrong or to own her part? I think these things all go together as a package deal. That's what I would be looking for...and taking the time to see if those are there? If they are, then I think he might hold promise?
J
Just Out of Curiousity BigSurprise?
Submitted by kellyj on
When you said...Marriage is a contract and there are conditions, and you need to know what those conditions are? Who is this contract with, and who makes those conditions? Is there some marriage contract, you are referring to, where those conditions are spelled out in very clear language? Like for instance "House Chores: blah blah blah" "Money and Finances: blah blah blah" "Children: Who has what duties, who does what when? blah blah blah blah? Where is this contract, that spells out all those conditions? The very conditions that are a major complaint and sore spot and the main reason people come here for help and support?
Where is, this specific contract...that has all this spelled out clearly and wll defined, so there can be no misinterpretation as to :what the conditions are specifically, who does what: specifically, and it is spelled out so you can refer to, and know exactly what each person is suppose to do in clear and easy to understand language? In essense....when you make the promise....where are those things listed in the contract and where do these expectations come from? Just a thought since, when I hear contract....there is only one legally binding marriage contract / liscense.....and those conditions are clearly spelled out where everyone can read them ahead of time? That's the only "contract" I can think that is enforcable by any authority that will "make you follow it, whether you like the condtions or not?"
Just a thought, since the only other contract I know of is the one you make between you and ( pick your religious leader or Guru here ) . That's the only binding contract that is enforceable by you? You cannot make anyone else do anything and any contract that says otherwise is only worth the piece of paper it is written on?
I was just thinking about those conditions again.....and which qualities you need to actually do them as required? Like I said, where is this contract.....that says all of this and spells it out clearly so you can just go read the contract and follow it by the conditions spelled out where everyone can see and read it ahead of time? Just a thought...since I've never seen it myself? I mean, the one that deals with these specific problems...which are the specific ones that are being brought up here repeatedly? 1) ..2).....3)....and so on down the list? Like any contract.....spelled out in clear in specific unambiguous language that anyone can understand and follow?
J
Yes it's a contract
Submitted by BigSurprise on
JJamieson, yes, the way I understand it it's a contract just like any other, signed mutually by two equal parties, where they promise to love and respect the other, to take care of them, to support them and be with them for good and bad. And expect the same in return. I believe the wedding vows basically come down to the same things all around the world, don't they? So yes, the vows ale a list of conditions, and pretty explicit.
No contract lists all possible options, because it's not possible to list all possible options in any situation. But before you sign it, you need to consider what you already know or suspect about the other party. There's also some things you'll get to know later, that you cannot predict, just like with any other contract. And it may turn out those terms, in those particular circumstances, cannot be kept.
Just like if you're building a house, and you hire a building company, it may go bankrupt and not finish the job. Or it may turn out the ground is too damp and it's impossible to finish it. It doesn't have to be anybody's fault. Either way, one side will end without their money, or the other will end up without a house, or both. But if you know the terrain is damp, you might want to reconsider building in that area. Or try to find out how big the problem is and still decide it doesn't really bother you. Or reinforce the structure accordingly. Ok, enough with the metaphor. I really think it's rather obvious.
I guess everyone understands marriage differently, there is no one universal definition. You are entitled to define it however you wish, whatever your religion or personal belief says, or however you feel it in your heart, and I'm not inclined to try and change your views.
Hope you understand what I meant now. I really can't explain it better, sorry.
Thank You........I Do Understand
Submitted by kellyj on
I hope I can express something to you that you may or may not be able to see here. I can't be sure based on your response to me about forgiveness and intolerance or the ability to do the or not? I made a post a while back here entitle "What is Love or Better, What Isn't Love"., which was me in part, trying to nail down a dfine "both" just to see what "Isn't Love" as a means to see what is missing or the things that people don't neccesarily see? I know what people see as Love...and there is plenty of understanding or what that is.....but then people think of what True Love is as the article defined pretty well in my mind:
Lacan points out that although “love”—that is, in its common, popular sense—is, in essence, a futile chasing after something that doesn’t exist, there is nevertheless a love beyond this “making love,” a love that exists beyond lack and limitation and that involves a sort of ecstasy of being,[6] as a matter of soul,[7] not of the body. The irony is that in the common act of “making love” we think we know what we want, but it turns out to be an illusion, while this other love touches on a real experience of which we know nothing. It’s a mystical sort of thing, as Lacan acknowledges.[8]
Now, although Lacan doesn’t say it this way, the difference between these two kinds of love—common “love” and true love (or real love)—can be conceived of as the difference between receiving and giving.
Note carefully, though, that giving does not refer to the mere sharing of material objects or wealth; it refers to the expression of profound emotional qualities such as patience, forbearance, compassion, understanding, and forgiveness.
This all goes to show that it’s easy enough to “love” those who “love” us: parents who protect us, “partners” who make us feel received, animals who never threaten us. But can we love those who annoy us . . . irritate us . . . obstruct us . . . scorn us . . . hate us? Can we love our enemies? That’s the real test of real love.
And it was out of a true understanding of the difference between common “love” and real love that a man such as St. Francis of Assisi was led—led right to the point, actually—to pray that he might seek “not so much to be loved as to love.”
So in my mind and in my own experience with being married before and having a number of different relationships that you could consider "serious and commited" no matter if there is a contact or not.....I've come to discover the missing components ( as I feel ) that these partners "lacked" with me?
As you said.....good or bad........"love and respect the other, to take care of them, to support them and be with them for good and bad. And expect the same in return. I believe the wedding vows basically come down to the same things all around the world, don't they? So yes, the vows ale a list of conditions, and pretty explicit."
So bascically, I have a very clear and well defined expectation and understanding of what those words mean. Not just the words but in the sense that "if you';re going to talk to the talk, you better walk the walk...and when I hear people "talking the talk" and not "walking the walk".....this is where my own misunderstanding or my own expectations seem to depart from what others think those words mean? If I were to re-write that contract and put the specifics ( that I was talking about into that contract ) it would read more like this.....based on what I beleive and what I think those words mean? This is what I expect....in other words...and when I don't get that coming from other people but expecially the one who "promised" that to me.....it caused me a great deal of heart ache and it makes me feel betrayed? But then I have to stop and kick myself, for being that stupid to beleive them in the first place? Thinking....or assuming, they understand those words to mean the same thing I do? Who can I fualt...for being so stupid? Them or me....at the end of the day? ME....of course, and each time it fails, I pay note to why it does and what is missing on both sides of the coin. Right now, I am focusing on the same things this thread is discussing? How do you know ahead of time, and what are you looking for....or not looking for in a partner ADHD or not? Okay, from my ADHD perspective and what I expect....based on those same words and the same universal contract you are saying? As the articel suggests....it's easy to Love when someone Loves you and when things are good.....but now....how bout when things are not so good or they are bad? That's what you mentioned as well? This is the true test...for True Love. I'm less interested in :common Love" which is kind of weak and worthless to me? Sure, it's nice.....but nice has absolutely nothing to with this? Everyone wants it "nice" all the time.....but when things are "bad".....people are not so "nice" as I have found? Nice is a sketchy concept that is more of an act....or in other words...a front, you put out there....even when you're not feeling it at all? Common Love....in my mind is superficial and kind of worthless to me.....like I said, it looks good.....but it not really "good: at all. In fact.....it';s actually "bad" wrapped up with a bow, or a "shit sandwhich"...with nice white bread and a shiney label and wapper on it....that still tastes like shit....no matter how good it looks? Superficial Love.....is not un-conditional. Un-conditional Love IS.....UN-Conditional after all? I am only interested in True Love....the other Love.....doesn;t count in my mind? I mean, it counts for something....but so does a shit sandwhich? It counts as something.....and it is what it is? My point....in how I see things and this is not seeing things only in idealistic terms but in real terms that you "KNOW" when you get it or not? What I'm saying is.......I'm not getting a lot of what I "KNOW" is real, or what I "KNOW" and "feel" as Love coming my way or at least, haven't in the relationships I had before? I feel, my choices have been poor....but that goes right back to what I'm saying in what to look for and what to "look out for." This is exactly what I'm saying as to "where is this contract that spells it out, in clear and unambiguous language? 1).....2)........3).............
1) Forebearnace-
for·bear·ance
fôrˈberəns,fərˈberəns/ patient self-control; restraint and tolerance.
"forbearance from taking action"
synonyms: tolerance, patience, resignation, endurance, fortitude, stoicism; leniency, clemency, indulgence,restraint, self-restraint, self-control
"we are proud of the forbearance you have demonstrated during these difficult weeks"
Law
the action of refraining from exercising a legal right, especially enforcing the payment of a debt. Which could be seen as....revenge, getting even, retaliating, getting back at, tit for tat, blah blah blah.
So based on the definition of True Love....then that means....even if the person you are with, is not showing this at the time.....and you are following the contract when things are "bad".....then if you failed to gvie these things, show these things, and not have these qualities yourself......then you are failing to uphold your promise and you are not Loving your partner? If you failed in any of these things when your tested at the time when things go bad and are at their worst...or if you partner is NOT doing this and acting like your enemy......then if you failed in any one of these qualities or components ( the specifics needed to show un-conditional Love ) then you have failed in the contract....haven't you? This is what I'm saying? What I expereince when things are :"not good" or when the first sign of trouble comes.....I don;t see these things coming my way......so I am not being Loved....the way I expect and the way I want it. What I promised to do and my understanding of these words? It has to work both ways....and as I experience it many many times......the failure is not on my part when the shit hits the fan and things are "bad"......when I dig down deep and pull these out of thin air and out my ass and your back is agiainst the wall.....I expect the same from my partner...under the exsct same circumstances which is what I don;t seem to get.....which comes through to me as hypocricy? And my cynical attitude reflects this offense at times? What offends me, is that the very people who "talk the talk".....ain't :walkin the walk....when the shit hits the fan? Mostly...they fall apart and or......run away or just leave? I have to call Bullshit on that much.....coming from my perspective and what I expect....based on the word LOVE. That is in the promise I make.....specifically, spelled out in clear and unambiguous language? Not that everyone does this ALL the time and doesn;t fail....but what I'm saying is......I don't see this at all? Like 0....coming my way which is the hypocrisy and the breakinng of the contract as I see it? True Love.....is different than "common fair weatheer Love" which I keep getting the feeling that this is what most people understand the word Love to mean? I don't see it that way......I see it this way instead?
Isn't that what you are saying...the same things as this: This all goes to show that it’s easy enough to “love” those who “love” us: parents who protect us, “partners” who make us feel received, animals who never threaten us......in relationship to what you said here:where they promise to love and respect the other, to take care of them, to support them and be with them for good and bad. And expect the same in return. So in other words.....you want something yourself, to recieve these things....and as you are saying this......you also promise to give them in return? Does that not imply......getting first....then you will give them as you worded that? Isn't that ass backwards and not what LOVE is? About the getting.....not the giving or at least....."give first".....then you get in return? Get first, then give......is conditional Love. Conditional Love is NOT Love after all? Not True Love.....but superficial or common Love? The "shit sandwhich"...or the "putting on a nice ( phoney ) front or exterior" when you really don;t feel it and it doesn;t come from the heart? I've got to tell you straight up. I can tell when someone does this. It is as obvious as the nose on their face? I can sense it, taste it, smell it and feel it.......I wasn't born yesterday you know? This is clearly obvious to me....and my radar is finely tuned into this and there is no way not to notice it...as it comes through to me? No way....no how.....do I not see through this? It is that obvious to me....just so you know? Like the difference between night and day....dark and light.....that's how obvious it is to me....there is no way not to notice or know the difference? To me......that's a vilation of the contract right there in my mind when push comes to shove...and the shit hits the fan that is? In the Bad moments.....is the ture test.....pass or fail? As the artidcle suggests :But can we love those who annoy us . . . irritate us . . . obstruct us . . . scorn us . . . hate us? Can we love our enemies? That’s the real test of real love.
So, the other two qualities ( and patience was kind of included in forebearance ) are compassion, understanding and foregiveness. 1)....2)....3)......4)...... Those qualtiies are not conditional.....and if they are not recieved by the recieiver....then you aren';t Loving them or giving them? These are none negotiable......and they are totally un-conditional.....but as stated....they are part of the "condtion of Love" as you clearly stated and it has to work both ways? If it doesn't.....then you're a hypocrite, how can you take those words to mean anything else as stated and you yourself included in the promise? If you are not "specifically giving these things" ( first )....then how can expect to get them in return? Respect is "earned" in the sense that if you don't give it....but expect it anyway.....that is pretty hard to repsect....when you haven't eaned it and you're not paying into the kitty. I'm talking about when things go "bad"....and you are at your worst...and the your partner is being a son of a bitch.....not when things are good?
And when I wrote this, I was coming to terms with all these things I've always felt....but hadn't actually gotten down to the specifics of it ....which is exactly what I was saying to you? Where is the "contract" that spells these things out in detail......like this? The specific qualities and requirements needed...that come with those expectations? And this is what I said back then and I still hold to this today? This is what I mean....when it's that obvious to me. That there is NO WAY....I cannot notice it? Like I wasn;t born yesterday and I can tell the difference? I can and have been able to tell the difference for most of my life in fact? I just didn't have these specifics but as I said when I wrote that post:
" I will include the link to this article I read about Love and the different kinds their are. There has been something intangible missing I feel in my wife's capacity to Love ..and when I read the highlighted areas, it finally clicked. while this other love touches on a real experience of which we know nothing. It’s a mystical sort of thing, as Lacan acknowledges.[8]Yes!! You know Love when you experience it and I do not experience Love from my wife...at all!
And in the same way, I'm not trying to change YOUR views.......I am simply showing you mine? And one might think, that if I have ADHD.....someone esle with ADHD....might have the same ideas or thoughts along these lines as well just as a means to show the difference and do the math? So when it comes to this and how I know what LOVE is or not? No peice of paper or contract is going to tell me what it is? I know it, when I feel and expereince it, and when I don't see these qualtieis show themselves....then I aint; expereincing it? That's what I mean that the "common form" or the "superficial type" is worthless? I don't feel Loved.....undeer those conditions......in my mind, the contract if violated and the promise is broken under thos conditions which is when the "bad" happens.....the the true "test" is put into action? Actions speak loudeer than words? I think respect is earned.....and this is where it's difficult to repsect those who expect...but don;t give in return...if I give these things....which is what I focus on and what I try to give? If I gove these qualities expecially during the bad times...and I don;t see them coming my way? That's pretty weak and worthless in my mind? And it sure ain;t Love...as I have come to find? When the shit hits the fan, and things are at their worst....is when you find this out I think.....you really can't know that until it happens and it will happen....that;s when you will know and expereince it....or not? It's undeniably clear and easy to see and feel....when the shit hits the fan and everything is bad? I can tell you straight up with my ADHD mom......she had a lot of faults and a lot of issues.....but when the shit hit the fan and it really counted......she had what it took and that's how I know this? It's un-condtional....she would have given her life for me, which is exactly what she said? That was her resolve speaking......I never expected her to if called upon, but she might have just from that resolve that she had. It showed itself at test time, and she had to choose between herself and me? That's what Im talking about....maybe your talking about soemthing different?
J