2 years ago, h got into a physical fight with our adult-aged child. H started the fight, and started the physical aspect. H is nearly entirely at fault. H ended up with a black eye.
I was the only witness. over the last two years, H has "changed " the story painting himself as a total victim.. He has not seen or spoken to our son since. One therapist did tell him that "as the father", he is more responsible since he should taken steps to prevent.
H's current T is telling him to write a letter to our son. H has written two letters, but both have been deemed unacceptable to his T. H has been vague as to what her complaints have been, but I suspect that it's because a T knows that it is likely HIS fault that the fight happened, and that H's letter has not been mature (taking responsibility)
Anyway.....all of this letter writing business is making H relive the incident and he blames me . Now, every couple of days, he has been blowing up over minor things, and then yelling at me over the incident with our son.
I don't know what to do?
What can you do . . . . .
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
OverwhelmedWife,
What I see is, he has a lot to deal with, and IF in the past you have allowed his anger to be unloaded on you, that is what he wants to do now. Because it has always worked for him.
I can understand the dynamics to some degree. My spouse would get mad, and I would "fix it." Thus I taught him that all he had to do was dump anger on me, and he would be relieved of it - and in doing it, I also took it upon my own shoulders. B-a-a-a-d idea. ( Now I know better, so I do better!)
Last summer - or maybe 2-3 summer's ago, my spouse asked our son if he could store something in our son's side of the garage. Our son said no. My spouse blew a gasket.
Here are some facts:
1. We have a barn, and we rent our son 1/2 for his own use. He is 25, and a mechanic.
2. My spouse's un-addressed ADHD symptoms have led to a disorganized mess in his side of the barn. It is so full, stuff is packed to the ceiling, and oozing out the door.
3. My spouse has ADHD - he is 57, and has a fairly recent diagnosis in August 2010.
4. Our son has ADHD - diagnosed when he was in 4th grade.
5. We conferred with our ADHD specialist about the situation. The suggestion was to stand firm in the "No." Just because my spouse's chronic disorganization is leading to storage problems for him, it does not mean we have to allow that to disrupt what my son has worked hard to accomplish.
It is extremely difficult for me to allow my spouse's consequences for his actions fall on his own shoulders. Nope, I do NOT have to back him up because he is the husband. Nope, my son did not have to change his decision because his Dad tried to induce guilt in the form of "this is MY property and you only have use of it because I allow it." .
Ugly hurtful words.
I do not know if that helps you or not. It is your husband's stuff to deal with, and you do not have to help out by either correcting the wording or putting up with his angry tirade. He can take it back to the counselor and ask what he is missing.
One caveat, just knowing that disagreement with the son came to physical blows makes me concerned. DO NOT use my suggestion as telling you the best thing for this situation. I am blessed NOT to have any physical abuse of any sort to deal with.
Liz
<<<<
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
<<<<
It is your husband's stuff to deal with, and you do not have to help out by either correcting the wording or putting up with his angry tirade. He can take it back to the counselor and ask what he is missing.
>>>>>
I wish it was that simple. I agree with you. But, since I was present, H blames me for everything. He says that this occurred because I turned our son against him. So, I can't just say, "this is between you and him" ....because I have said that numerous times. H insists that I'm a big part of it because I "caused it" and that I didn't support him after it was over.
time
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
OvewhelmedWife,
I agree that it is not easy. At all. I have been working on my own issues. I have been learning to extricate myself from the blame of things that were not my responsibility. It does take a long time to learn to change the way you think and respond.
Liz
He needs you to blame....
Submitted by c ur self on
This situation is the perfect example of " People who can't control themselves, will always look to control others" Our desire to help has to desist, or we will get dragged into every unhealthy and chaotic adventure of their life....The saddest part about it is when we do engage it...It will some how end up being our fault....
When I try to HELP in these moments; reach out w/ rational thinking and an effort to bring clarity to a mind locked in denial...I just as soon go lay my head on the chop block and bring her the ax...I know what's coming....
C
Yes C Self Control
Submitted by kellyj on
What's the difference between ADHD and some of these other issues? Hard wiring problems that make it more difficult for us to control certain things including emotions. It does NOT prevent you from doing so however but.....possibly harder to do than most other people in the same ways. One could cut us some slack if that is the only issue we have in these specific areas.
But as my T refers to as "software" issues.....these can happen with anyone ADHD or not. These still create problems with self control but without ADHD involved....might be easier you would think to get a handle on? Maybe yes....maybe no? It does appear regardless to end up with the same behavior and what you said is exactly the same conclusion I have come to for myself..... " People who can't control themselves, will always look to control others" . This does appear to be the common denominator here.
I might modify this slightly only to say "the lack of....or inability to control or regulate a persons internal emotions.....will manifest itself in controlling behavior with the outside world and people around them."
Either way....it's saying the same thing.
J
Add...Non's....Conflict...We must accept the difference's...
Submitted by c ur self on
Learning the Why's of conflict is just as important as learning how to avoid it...
Things I've noticed that always produce Conflict in our relationship when allowed to progress unchecked....And with our different mindsets...Sad to say, it has happened way to often....
(Perception) My wife feels I look down on her as a person. Why? I've come to realize you cannot continue to engage your spouse when a high percentage of the engagement is talking points and inquiry into their behavior or actions. She feels devalued and her self esteem suffers. It goes against the desire to be loved, cherished and appreciated.
Denial is the killer, It's the great gulf between....Hope & Hopelessness....When I engage or seek to press into a closed mind...These are the times I become the problem, I step from my peaceful reality into the world of illusion. I cannot walk through a closed door.
This also seems to work in reverse w/ us....When I just accept her realities as her own, and she accepts mine as my own....Self-awareness seems to be the product, which in turn limits the conflict, and supports emotionally healthier individuals which in turn makes for a healthier relationship....
C
Perfect Segway C
Submitted by kellyj on
A martial arts analogy:
A wise emperor with 3 sons was to pick his successor. He summoned the first one into his chambers but before he did, he placed a pillow above the door which was poised to fall onto the persons head who passed through the doorway...
The first son sensed the pillow as he opened the door and before the pillow had time to hit the floor, drew his sword and sliced it cleanly in two.
The second son as he opened the door, sensed the pillow and stepped aside and let it fall to the floor untouched.
The third son, as he reached for the door, sensed the pillow and refused to enter.
After the test was complete...he summoned his 3 sons to meet with him.....
The first son was sent away from his empire only to return when he was ready and had learned the lesson that he had failed.
The second son was made head council to the emperor and remained in the palace as an advisor but held no power or wealth of his own.
The third son was handed the emperors throne and the entire wealth and power of all he possessed to use as he saw fit from that moment on.
As told to me by my Karate instructor when I was in college. As a story illustrating the power of Qi :)
J
Denial Is Really the Avoidance of Pain C
Submitted by kellyj on
I'm sorry to keep coming back here (like a broken record?)....and not assuming without a better explanation in how to relate with this(???). I'm always brought back to what is possible and what I know. The best example I an think of is something that I have already used here before but I think I can explain this better this time in a way that will make more sense. I linked this example again of Jason Lezak in the 2008 Bejing Olympic Games and his amazing race against the French world record holder in the mens 4 x 100 Free relay. Aside from the obvious here...you need to understand one thing if you see this race. For a person to do what he did....he is no longer racing against another person....he is in a mental battle with himself and pain and finding his inner power. All other thoughts no longer exist about anything else when you are actually there in this moment because it is the pain that will make or break you. The person who has more mental power and the ability to focus all their energy on one single thing will be the winner in any event like this. It is never about the other person....it a personal relationship with yourself and pain what you believe you can do at this level. The more you believe you can withstand and endure....the further and faster you will go.
To sum this up simply.....it is believing in yourself.
To set the stage once again......Jason Lezak is one full second behind the fastest human on the planet and world record holder in this distance. There really is no possible way that this is realistically possible and why I keep coming back here to make a point. If Jason Lezak had not been there that day....the person he beat (Elaine Bernard) would have beaten his own world record and set a new one in this very race. That's how incredible this was.
This is only to keep making the same point that there is a power and strength inside all of us that is there if you can just reach down inside yourself and find it in the first place. Everyone (not just Olympic Athletes)....has this ability. It is there if you believe it is and it works the same for everyone no matter who you are or what physical condition you are in.
Once you find it once....you will always be able to keep finding it again if you need to but it is there to use as needed in your own life. This is the self control and power that you can find which will give you the same super human strength to overcome adversity for yourself. It really is possible.
You can skip to 4:10 in this video to see this again if you have not sen it before. It is the best example I can think of someone doing exactly the thing I am talking about better than anything that I have ever witnessed before. You may find another inspiration like this to use for yourself to think about and use as I have but none the less....it shows you what is possible if you believe in yourself first. It works in the moment like this or on a daily basis in your own life as well.
https://youtu.be/sxy920Nd7yY
J
I hear you J
Submitted by c ur self on
So...Denial is avoidance of Pain...That is so funny!...Not saying your point isn't a good one...But, she can talk for an hour with out taking a breathe about all her accidents, scares and near death experiences she seems to revel in. And even ignores or agree's with idiot decision's by our grown children at times when they have tried to supply themselves w/ some cheap thrill, that almost costs them or someone else a serious injury...But, the moment their H or W needs to communicate concerning real life issues....It's to painful!...Ha Ha....A person who lives this way shouldn't think it odd, when they find themselves alone....
I've always been an athlete, I understand the concept of competing with in....I've always been able to use my mind to force my body to push past the pain....But, there is a line....I can and have allowed my ability to focus cause me to break my body down....I was working out on the treadmill at the gym a couple of weeks ago....I young man that I know came in and got on a machine a few down from me...So I spoke to him at some point....And when I started to leave I stepped over to ask him to tell his wife and parents I said greetings....Before I could say a word...He looked at me with an expression of disbelief and said....That was Ridiculous!...What you did on that treadmill was Ridiculous!...I didn't think anything about it, I new I was working hard....
Anyway, I know what it like to push past the pain....And that is what we all own each other in our marriages, push pass the pain when it comes to communication about real life and our realities....
C
Yep C Here You Go
Submitted by kellyj on
.But, she can talk for an hour with out taking a breathe about all her accidents, scares and near death experiences she seems to revel in.
There's your clue right there. Not to say these things didn't happen....but usually when someone talks about how much pain they've experienced (seems to focused on it a lot) at least my experience tells me that they are pretty sensitive to it. Psychic pain is worse than physical pain any day of the week. One is usually over pretty quickly as soon as it subsides unless it's a really bad injury. Even then unless it's chronic....it usually goes away within a week or two. I'll come in from work with blood running down my arm and my wife will go....OOH!! What happened?? And I'm usually oblivious and can't remember? ha ha If that happened to here she would be sitting out for the entire day and talking non stop about it too. I hear you. I'm always injured in one way or another and my hands have the scars to prove it.
But really that's not what I'm talking about. It's having to look at things you don't or can't look at because the psychic pain is too great. If you are already on the edge....it's more than a person can process of deal with. This is more chronic pain and I can see it when I watch my wife for example. It's in her face and the lines that show. She will stare off with the look of depression and discomfort and I can tell just from that look that she is struggling. She was like this at times when I met her but after living with her and seeing her on a daily basis....it really shows in her face. Her brother is the same way. When I was looking at pictures from our beach trip together and he wasn't posing or noticing his picture taken....the snap shots reveal a grimace that is always there and never really goes away. It's a look of sadness that even my wife pointed out to me. I told her he always looks that way but she is just now beginning to notice it.
I can tell just by the lines on my wife's face that something is up. When she is happy and not this way....she looks 10 years younger and hasn't done a thing with her face. It's something I noticed when we first started dating....like she had two distinct looks and one I think is mostly in her head from this kind of pain.
That's what "buttons" or 'triggers" are...psychic pain. If someone keeps poking that wound enough times.....most people will get angry if it was a cut on your arm or a physical injury. It works the same but in the kind of pain I'm referring too....if you don't do something to heal it over time....it always stay open and you will react every time someone touches it.
And that where I agree with you too.....we all have our pain in one way or the other. Our society it seems has convinced us that something is wrong if you are a little bit uncomfortable. Quick....take a pill....make it go away! Buy now and can an extra one for free!
That's a bunch of baloney. A life without pain is not living life. Avoiding pain is the same thing but worse. That creates fear and anxiety the second you feel any as if it is not suppose to be that way.
Anyway.....,my wife is the same way C. We'll be sitting there and she will be fussing with something on her leg or foot and keep obsessing over it. She will finally ask me to look at it to see if she is all right. Most the time....I don't have the heart (or the nerve?) to tell her that I can't see anything when she does this? ha ha
I've found the best thing to do is the same as you would do with a little kid when they fall and skin there knee. Acknowledge the pain first and say "that must hurt". And then take a closer look and say "I think you are going to be just fine, it doesn't look that bad to me."
Really I think.....that is what everyone wants at the end of the day....for us it's just the grown up version.
Except the no-see'ums on my wife's leg! lol
J
Just have to accept it, and not dwell on it; It is what it is
Submitted by c ur self on
J some minds can see things for what they are, learn from it, shake it off in time, and move on....Some people just allow the pain (psychic) to build up and instead of being able to shake it off, it molds them, they retreat into their minds to a place and way of living that keeps them in self protection mode..(Self-Trust) When you mix the effects of her add with this built up pain from her past. It is very difficult for us to communicate. Just one wrong word that would force her to have to look at the reality of her living of life, and she will shutdown, flee, or start talking over you and turn angry.
We did counseling together for 8.5 months and each new trip, she would be reverted back into the same mindset as when she started....(Ground Hog Day) By the end of the session, she was talking differently, listening better, but she would keep relapsing...It's like she hears, but, not really...If her mind was a hard drive, it's like it reverts back to factory settings shortly after it was programmed with helpful information...It's never seems to be retained...Or what is retained is quickly wiped away at the first sign of discomfort...Discomfort being having to move away from this safe place she as built herself to rest in...Denial....
C
I Wish I Could Tell Her....
Submitted by kellyj on
for you that the false sense of security and comfort she keeps retreating back into is the very thing that is causing her to suffer. That's the pain, and suffering that you have to endure not to have pain and suffering. For your sake C.....if I could I would but I know that won't work. You have to make that decision for yourself or you will never follow through with it(:
J
Power and Control
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
C,
" People who can't control themselves, will always look to control others"
I have heard the basic idea you expressed with different words: People get their power where they can get it.
And it is usually someone or something smaller, weaker, unable to defend itself.
In my own case, it was me, because I allowed it to happen. I spent a lotta years trying to figure out how to be the "Wife of a Happy Husband." It was so hard, not to mention a heck of a lotta work. I did discover much along the way. Occasionally it is our responsibility to do or act for someone else's happiness. The problem develops when a person like myself, who wanted her husband's approval, lost herself along the way.
Oh, I am so glad I am found. I will readily admit that there is a tiny voice in the back of my mind . . . . . . . . .when I am walking away from angry words being shouted at me like, "Go ahead walk away. You had your say, and won't let me have mine.". . . . . . . . that voice is chidding me in with "What if you are wrong?" I know I am not wrong.
It is so hard to see my spouse in such emotional turmoil. I cannot make myself a sacrificial lamb and assume responsibility for what is not mine.
Liz
People get their power where they can get it
Submitted by kellyj on
The only problem is Liz....the only power and control that anyone has comes from within. If you are trying to get it through other people.....it will never work. That's why you feel so drained on your end and why the other person will never be happy. If they don't have any of their own.....you and everyone else will never be enough to replace what is missing. It becomes a parasitic relationship rather than a healthy give and take in exchange.....but in order for that to work....you have to have your own power in the first place.
In martial arts, it's referred to as Qi or qi.... in theory, qi that might be characterized as an individual's vital energies or life force. This qi was necessary to activity and it could be controlled by a well-integrated willpower. When properly nurtured, this qi was said to be capable of extending beyond the human body to reach throughout the universe. It could also be augmented by means of careful exercise of one's moral capacities. On the other hand, the qi of an individual could be degraded by adverse external forces that succeed in operating on that individual.
All that means is you have a power that is there if you find it and nurture it. If you don't....it will have control over you by outside or external forces controlling it instead..... and therefore you. The problem is....you have to learn how to do this, you are not born with this ability to control it and master it.....the power is there but if you don't take some kind of action and learn how to harness it....you will spend your life wasting it and believing it is not there and thinking that things on the outside of you are your only source. Unfortunately for you....sometimes those are other people who have found it.....for the ones who have not themselves, seek this from those who are too willing to give theirs away in the false hope that it will be exchanged or returned to them from that other person.
I'm speaking as much for myself here as anyone else. This has also been my mistake in the past. At this time....I am focusing on gaining mine and having enough for myself and someone else but not more than that. Going past this place is going out of balance and losing your Qi.
I like seeing things from different perspective since it helps me visualize what I need to do. Having ADHD.....I tend to have to see things visually in order to understand them in a physical sense (or space) even if it does not in exist in physical form. If I can't see it or visualize it.....I don't know where to go to find it. I guess that's the artist in me as well as the ADHD both at the same time...what can I say? lol
J
Awesome Liz...
Submitted by c ur self on
It takes the wise to not address it....I'm proud of you:)
C
Yes
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
<<
I have heard the basic idea you expressed with different words: People get their power where they can get it.
And it is usually someone or something smaller, weaker, unable to defend itself.
<<
This is so true. H is very passive when it comes to certain people, but not with me...not with someone he knows is smaller, weaker, etc.
Man/Child.....Emotionally
Submitted by kellyj on
When my father finally retired....I was still in college. He was an older parent and had started smoking unfiltered cigarettes when he was around 8 or 9 years old. Because he chain smoked most of his adult life he had severe emphysema so at age 60 when he was forced to retire...he looked like he was 75 due to his ailing health. For his entire adult life that I knew him growing up...he was a tyrant at home and used rage and a quick temper and the back of his hand to do his talking. He was a bully and I was a small child at the time with ADHD...bouncing off the walls and without question....a handful and probably appeared uncontrollable to him. His solution.......I'll show him! He showed me alright.....I was afraid of him every second I was alone with him since you never knew when the axe would fall.... which why I spent so very little time around him.
Even when I was very little and he was playful with me....I remembered when we would wrestle around....the game always ended up with him on top of me and him tickling me until I would literally almost pee my pants. II think on one occasion I actually did. It may have appeared like I was laughing and giggling and enjoying the game but at that point.....I would be laughing and screaming for him to stop at the same time but he would continue doing it as it appeared to please him to have me in that position where I was helpless and brought the point of being very uncomfortable and begging him to stop. This only appeared to insight him to keep doing it more and I quickly learned to pretend not to let these moments bother me since he appeared to lose interest in the game when he could not get me to react to him or control me in any way. It was not fun.....it was a sick game that he played (and initiated) that only served him to make him feel more powerful and one he could always win every time by taking control over me and make me beg for mercy. I hated being alone with him without my mother there to intervene when he would go too far.
So when he finally retired and I graduated college (in another city)....it was the first time in over 4 years that I was living full time at my home again and it was just my mother father and I for about a year before I moved out again and got my own place. Since I was a late bloomer in high school....physically....my father was always bigger and stronger than I was until that time but fortunately....being smaller than average growing up in school......I suddenly grew and grew a lot. My father was not a tall man and since he smoked and did not exercise....he was rather short and stocky for a man (around 5'9", 180- 190lbs). I over took him in height by over 3" and nearly matched his weight (175lbs)...but I had competed and trained in sports since I was 6 none stop and now at age 22....I was competing and training for Triathlons at the time and didn't have an ounce of fat anywhere on my body. I think my fat % was down to around 4% at the time. In comparison....my fathers pant size was 36-38inch waist and I was wearing 31" Levi's if you an picture this difference.
Since my sisters were older and both married with their own families with infant children....the first Christmas at home for just the three of us proved to be somewhat unique since it was the first X-mas where my father was not gone until X-mas eve working which was what we all new for our entire lives. My mother decided to step out of the norm and buy my father an expensive gift which she had never had the opportunity to do before since my father controlled all the money but now with his health issues and with her picking up more of the errands...she had some money to spend that my father had no say in the matter. I was in on the gift and helped my mother pick it out for him. When the moment came to unwrap presents....my mother and I sat and watched my father open his gift. At first he sat and just stared at the gift for a moment and didn't say anything......but then he went off into a rage and started screaming at my mother saying "what the hell were you thinking...you stupid woman....blah, blah !!!!" ....and continued to rant at her until I jumped up and came right over top of him like I had been so used to doing as a bouncer at rock concerts as a part time job during school at night. They had trained us to move in like this and intimidate people by surprise to subdue them from becoming physically aggressive and I found myself in that same position of power with my father.
Instinctively.....I was ready to fight him and take him down in no uncertain terms as I had been trained to do so and had done the same thing on a number of occasions with drunken, drugged out perpetrators who were twice my father size and half his age and hauled them off and out of the building. My father just looked up at me with a kind of look of shock and horror on his face and I was ready to kill him (figuratively) he made even one move or blinked and eye and I think my presence over him told him that without saying a word. In a few moments....my father just got up from his chair and walked out of the room and X-mas was officially over for that year and nothing was ever said or spoken of this incident ever again.
This was the first time I really saw my father and who he was......a frightened man/child and a bully. I had seen this same thing many times before and in case it was always the same. Either a pouting victim who shunned you or hurling insults at you once they were safe on the other side of the fence and you could not get to them anymore. A second before that....they were petrified with fear and begging you not to hurt them. It was pathetic..... and now my father was that same pathetic immature bully who had just had his power stripped from him by a force that was bigger than he was and could do nothing about it in the moment. In his case...he pouted for days and would not speak to me or my mother unless he needed something that require him to speak.
After that moment.....he turned into a whiny victim who was always needing something 24 hours a day from either myself or my mother seemingly none stop. It was relentless!! My mother was waiting on him hand and foot but he was driving her absolutely crazy. Since she had been the full time house wife and mother for over 30 years and was in charge of everything that had to do with the house....is was not sitting well with her when my father was there all the time and started to exert his authority over hollowed ground ie: wanting to change rooms, move things around, build an office (for what? he wasn't working) out of my old bedroom, and started stepping all over my mothers toes and driving her right through the roof!!
But after that moment on X-mas ....and after enough time to let his shame die down a bit.....my father never returned to his tyrant role again and transitioned almost over night to whiney, demanding man/child who could never get enough of my mothers attention.
The only people he could pick on after that were the poor soles who randomly picked the wrong house to try and solicit products or services door to door or worse.....try and convince my father to convert to their religion. I'll spare the stories in this tread but they were pretty amusing to watch on my end. lol I kind of felt sorry for them since they had no concept or clue that they had just entered the lion's den and woke up a grumpy old lion who had been resting in the other room at the same time......I knew their pain!! LOL
I thought this might give your some perspective since your H and my father seem to share some things in common. My father for sure....did not have ADHD. At this point....I'm more than a little positive that it was my mother who had it which was also why my father was so hard on me at times. He saw of felt that same intangible feeling coming over him with me that he had with my mother (not gender or behavior) but that same intangible feeling that we folks with ADHD have so much trouble seeing ourselves. and put out there which is problematic for everyone else when they run into it. He didn't like it with her......as so many post of this forum confirm......and he didn't like the same thing with me. His anger towards me was really a transference of what he was really feeling with my mother for the same reason and of course.....I had not idea why and could not understand it at the time growing up.
So as I have come to learn from all of this is that we ADHD'ers do have this affect on the people that we live with and this can be very frustrating at the very least....but my mother as one case in point......did love my father despite the abuse she received from him and remained a good wife to him to his very last day. My father on the other hand had issues stemming from his childhood but to pin point his problem and what defined his personality and behavior was being a malignant Narcissist which was not how myself or my mother behaved or struggled with.
This was confirmed to me by nearly everyone including my own mother saying "wow...you are nothing like your father." I agree. A couple of my closest friends not long ago when we were talking about our parents both turned to me for the first time and said " you're Dad was SCARY!" The other one "yeah dude....he made me nervous whenever I was around him....he was scary." I didn't need them to tell me that but at least it was confirming:)
In my case.....it is pretty easy to see the one from the other for this reason. I hadn't considered my mother being ADHD until just recently after she passed away just over a year ago....but the event and the bringing all of these memories back into full view again after so many years completes this picture for me with a great deal of certainty at this point. My T has helped a little but I really don't need him to confirm this to me at this point. I saw my mothers behavior.....my father's behavior....and now my own with eyes wide open and there is no questioning for me at this point which is which.
It doesn't sound like you are very confused either but I thought this story compared to so many I have read about your H might be yet another source for you to do the same thing for yourself. The fascinating thing for me in doing this is just how remarkably predictable and similar two different people with the same appearing psychological profile can be to one another. For me....this really helps me separate these things apart from one another. I hope this helps you do the same thing for yourself:)
J
J
This is exactly my Father in Law
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
<<<
he was a tyrant at home and used rage and a quick temper and the back of his hand to do his talking. He was a bully and I was a small child at the time with ADHD...bouncing off the walls and without question....a handful and probably appeared uncontrollable to him. His solution.......I'll show him! He showed me alright.....I was afraid of him every second I was alone with him since you never knew when the axe would fall.... which why I spent so very little time around him.
<<<
There were 4 sons.
The first one fought with him constantly...and they hated each other.
The second one "stayed under the radar" so as to avoid their dad's wrath.
The third one, my H, was combative with his father, and he grew up in fear of his dad. He grew up hating his dad.
Then there was a big age gap and some sisters born.
The youngest child, a boy, born much later when the dad had "mellowed out," has few negative memories, but he's very passive as a person.
Interesting OW, I'm Curious?
Submitted by kellyj on
Did his sisters see any of this? My father behaved completely different with my sisters. They never saw any of the things that I have mentioned here on this forum aside from his moodiness and irritability. Only my mother and I saw this side of him. Our whole family was passive including me....it never would have occurred to me to speak out or be combative....are you kidding? Way too scary. I firmly believe my father would have matched you toe to toe and then one up you to the point of violence against me which was what I new and understood from experience. There was violence in my fathers past and it lurked just under the skin. I could feel it and I knew it was there waiting if you knocked on that door.
On several occasions when it was just the two of us together alone in the house.....I would be minding my own business and quietly be busy doing something and my father would come seek me out and pin me up against the wall and say "you're not fooling me like you do your mother....I'm on to you. Go ahead...take a swing at me...you want to don't you....c'mon go ahead, take the first swing. Don't you want to hurt your old man?"
This didn't make me angry or mad at him and I certainly didn't want to hit him ever when he was like this. I wanted him to love me and this broke my heart and freaked me out at the same time. I would just freeze up and not say anything and let him walk away. Even my mother didn't see these moments and I could never explain what brought these on......seemingly, out of the blue for no reason at all? Nothing happened that day or even that week. It was like he had been saving this up for a really long time and just couldn't stand it any longer and so he would wait until no one else was around to see him behave this way. He did combine moments like this with saying his favorite mantra ..."I don't need love......I need respect!"
Clearly.....these were those statements again .....those declarations out of context to anything going on as well as accusations of things that were not happening. I believe he was in some kind of psychotic loop in his head......without knowing better, along with all the things I have said about the "false self" and the "true self"......I now get the feeling that every time I took the high road and did the right thing ( not being combative and fighting back with him ).....somewhere in his past with his own father perhaps.......he did not do this and fought and raged back against his own father. By me being passive and non aggressive with him (taking the high road as I was taught).....I shamed him by doing this. How screwed up is that? I really believe this is true. That's how I disrespected him....by being respectful and compliant and not fighting back. Those crazy paranoid moments when he would pin me up against the wall and making these irrational statements to me.....was really his false self raging against his true self and somehow I represented that to him?? I know this sounds far fetched but if you were there and experienced this....it really was like someone talking to themselves and looking into a mirror instead of at you. I was more like a picture on the wall that reminded him of something that he disliked or hated and it would be the equivalent of punching or screaming at the picture that caused this memory to reappear in the moment.
There were many times when I would be in the basement of our home where we had a room with a TV and stereo and I would be in there to be alone and would close the door with headphones on listening to music and he would he make a point to come down and open the door and say something shitty out of the blue and then turn around and close the door and leave again.....for no reason?????? He did that many times for no reason at all.
As my T explained to me that my father was jealous of my relationship with my mother. This freaked me out when he said that since this also would have never occurred to me??? Yikes!! This made sense in that there were times my father would come to me and ask me what was up with my mom. "How should I know....she your wife, go ask her yourself!!" (and thinking to myself.....get the hell out of my room and leave me alone! LOL )
As much as my mother had her issues and I tried to stay as far away from any of the problems that my parents had going on....my mother and I basically got along pretty well all things considered. There were a lot of times when my sisters were out of the house and it was just my mom and I and we really didn't have any conflicts or things to argue about for the most part ..... and as far as that was concerned....my sisters and I got along great and we never fought or argued ever. When my father was not around, the four of us together (even though we all had separate interests and were not extremely open about what we did outside of the house)....were quite civil and treated each other very well including my mother. I was pretty typical for a guy my age in that I didn't want the kind of mother daughter relationship that I saw going on with my sisters and didn't spend a lot of time talking about my feelings or more typically.....mother, daughter stuff so I tended to ignore that and was thankful that my mother did not attempt to go there with me any more than she did. lol If conversations started going that direction......I suddenly had something I needed to do! What? I don't know....something??? Where are you going? Out!! lol
This is why I am curious if you H said anything about his sisters not witnessing any of the same things that happened to him? I had and still have to this day....a difficult time trying to tell my own sisters what really happened in our own family right beneath there very noses.
As I said.....my father was a bully and was careful to pick and choose his timing for when he acted out and when he didn't. Clearly....he did not want my sisters to see the other side of him and he kept that hidden from them. This was also why I thought he was so full of shit most of the time. I saw that he could control it if he wanted to but he chose not to with my mother and I. So weird and unacceptable at the same time. It is also why I am so sure he didn't have ADHD. He did things with intention and you knew it without question. He was very in control all the time and picked and chose exactly when and where he would do things and could hold his temper if he wanted to. With me....he just didn't want to. Not to go too far down this road and sound like a victim but....there are cases where parents just don't like their own children and I was this case in point. It happens and parents are human too. Not all kids like their parents and not all parents like their own children. In my case....I actually liked my dad and wanted his love and tried very hard to win his favor. I never hated him no matter how bad things got back then and the last thing I wanted to do was fight or hit him ever. For him... he didn't have either for me and that is just the way it goes:(
J
Adding to What I Just Said, Anger and Denial
Submitted by kellyj on
Not that this just occurred to me since I have been very aware of this for a long time...but I thought this would be useful to see how these things work especially denial.
If a person is in denial....they are not going to be aware of their own actions and the reasons why? Displaced anger and emotions will become out of context with the reality of the situation. Repressed feelings and unresolved emotions will connect themselves from the past to the present in seemingly irrational ways.
What I discovered about my own anger outbursts with my wife was exactly to this point. I have said before I would access myself honestly as not having rage, jealousy and too many paranoid delusions even in my past but I certainly had moments in loss of control of my anger which would occur at very specific times. Coming to this forum was in part....a way to get to the bottom of these instances since even at the time it was clear to me that they had some association with something from my distant past that I thought they were gone for good long ago.
That was until my wife and I started living together. As this played out after a while......since my wife's tolerance level to certain things is really low due to her own past issues and one of them was clutter.....you can imagine how well that worked for me. I am inherently messy and that is without a doubt. I'm not as much a hoarder as such, but I am very bad about organizing and putting things away. I can do it very well if I stop and think about it so there is no inability there on my end. I can be just as meticulous and precise at organizing and ergonomics as anyone else on average but I it is not my strong suit and it takes me a long time and a lot of effort to do it in the first place. This is an ADHD issue for sure and why I don't do it because it is so difficult for me to do and it takes a very long time. That does not mean I don't have the ability to do it or that I don't do it well if I do. That's the paradox of having ADHD right there.
Anyway.....my wife admittedly has perfectionist issues that extend beyond what is average for most people and it is a neurotic/obsessive compulsion she has that makes her more extreme. The problem for someone like this and you try and take that away from them (the ability to relieve this irrational anxiety by doing it in this way)...they will tend to react unconsciously and not in a favorable way!! lol
Her reactive anger was triggering my PTSD from the very things that I just described in my last comment.....getting cornered by surprise attacks out of the blue by my father for example.....getting pinned up against the wall seemingly out of the blue for no reason or him coming into my space with his "hit and run" negative shitty comments when I was obviously trying to hide away behind a closed door for the very intention of having some personal space and time to myself. In the case of a child.....you have no where to run and with someone like my father.....he knew that and took advantage of it. This is what I was saying about doing it with intention. He had me trapped and he knew it and took pleasure in letting me know he could do this anytime he wanted and was letting me know that I could not hide from him if he felt like finding me. This is sick in my mind just like pinning down a child and tickling them until they urinate while they are screaming for you to stop. It's the same damn thing and for the same reason.....because he took pleasure in doing it and made him feel good at my expense.
So now if you come full circle to my wife overreacting to small things like crumb over looked on the cutting board or wrappers on the floor that fell there and were missed.....these of course were just icing on the cake for her with everything else and would cause her to go out of control herself and come find me at the worst times for me and go off about seemingly something that should not be such a big deal. In the moment however......I might be asleep on the couch or resting and trying to recover from a long day at work and trying to decompress from that stress already.....and be woken up out of a sleep to find an angry face barking at me about something that (which seemed in the moment) like something that only an out of control irrational person would ever do. If I think about it.....I have never woken someone up while they were asleep unless it was a dire emergency. This appeared to me without thinking any more past those moments.....as a ranting out of control street person who would likely attack you as they would spit in your face for looking at them the wrong way.
I did discover that this was the source of my anger outbursts against my wife since they coincided with being ambushed or surprised and having someone in close proximity and being in my face with no place to run or escape to. If you can't feel safe from threat or attack in your own home and have a safe place to go and not have a person hunt you down and come into your space to ( has no respect for your personal boundaries what ever they are even after you have told them and the reasons why)....in the moment.....one would have to conclude that this person is doing with intention for that reason alone.
In my case at least.....I wasn't trying to control anyone and was not connecting my wife's behavior with anything that I could make sense to. As I told her repeatedly.....it's not what you are saying or wanting....it's how you are going about it. She could not understand what I was talking about and only knew my reaction to her when I did this. That is all she could see and there was no cause and effect thinking what so ever.
She was and still is in denial to a certain point.....but I also see now how my reaction was also a PTSD displaced fear/threat response which told me the same thing I was saying about my father. That my wife was doing this for enjoyment and was taking pleasure in doing the very thing I asked her not to do.
We have both come to find that it was exactly what I just said....and even as much as I was aware that my anger was related to my past in some way and this was highly unusual for me to behave like I was based on many years of not being this way.and repeatedly told my wife not hunt me down out of the blue and just sit down and talk about the things she wanted instead of reacting the way she did.....I still could not connect this the way I just did with you but more importantly....the distortion in my thinking that 2 + 2 = she had to be doing this with intention and taking pleasure in doing so. That same sick feeling and anger about my father it for this reason was getting filtered right in there unconsciously and bringing me to the same mental conclusions in that moment as I did many many years ago.
For my wife.....she reacts completely unconsciously in the moment and it always comes out as anger when something is interfering with her neurotic needs or getting them cut off from her ability to self soothe herself with these mal adaptive strategies. I on the other hand was having my own PTSD panic attack which solely involved someone coming into my personal space aggressively with anger by surprise. In my case.....the key component to this was the ambush by surprise part as I finally discovered. The fear of this threat inside my own home or safe place meant I had no where to go and hide to get away from it since I never new when it was coming.
Other than being ambushed or surprised with an aggressive person coming into my space......I don't react or lose my temper ever. This is way this was so unusual and so mystifying to me when it happened and why it seemed to be happening with my wife now and not with other people I have been with. In over 12 years of being married to my ex-wife.....I never experienced this with her even once but she also never did what my wife does now.
So even if someone is not in severe denial as I would place myself in now.....I still had a remnant of my past and this dormant PTSD that could be triggered under very specific circumstances. The result was out of control losing my temper anger in response to this and I found that to be completely unacceptable on my end. At this point in time.....it has been almost 2 years since the last time this has happened and I don't expect it will happen again. I have now added this to my arsenal of self awareness and even when my wife still reacts and catches me off guard, I also recognize exactly what is happening and have identified this particular feeling and the reasons behind it.
When you can do this is when you have control over it. That's why denial makes this so hard if not impossible for someone to do unless they are willing to figure these things out and deal with their past. It ain't easy but it is what you have to do.
I thought this would be useful for anyone trying to understand these dynamics as it happened in my case to refer to your own and see if you cannot connect the dots yourself in this way. I think for someone in deep denial...trying to talk about this with them or get a straight answer is not what you should expect. The lying of course comes from this same dynamic but if it is from denial.
As it was in the case with my wife as I felt in the moment......it was not with intention and she was not doing it on purpose to be deceitful with that intention. She simply could not see any of the things I was seeing and was literally in the dark. As of now.....she see's it too and can see enough to realize and understand what I am saying most of the time. That in itself is a night and day difference.
My PTSD believed that my wife was lying and could not believe that she wasn't doing it with intention for pleasure or revenge. My wife was reacting unconsciously to her neurotic obsessions to relieve anxiety and had no connection or thought behind the reasons why or even realizing what she was doing (she couldn't even see it) which is why trying to talk about it was a complete and utter waste of time. She needed a wake up call before she could be shocked out of denial in the first place before she could even begin to reason her way out of her own behaviors as being connected to mine in any way. Once she did.....I also saw it was not for the same reason that my father was doing it and for the reasons that I already said. If we both had been in the same state of denial in our case I don't think any of this would have happened but at least I can say that is only takes one not to be to get the other one to come out if you can do it in a way that they can finally make that connection for themselves. This really is where that person by default has to become the leader whether they like this role or not. I can't see any other way??
For anyone who reads this.....I do hope this might help you too:)
J
If Ifs and Buts, were candy and nuts. . . . . .
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
If a person is in denial....
It is hard to live with a person who is in denial. I have heard someone who has counseling authority/wisdom say they see it. I have heard another counselor say they see Dry Drunk behavior - -which is humorous to some degree as my spouse never touched any alcoholic beverage. . .ever.
In the end, it is not my place to judge. What it is my place to do - to decide when that final line gets crossed in my mind, and I slip into the chasm of "It is over." I think that is a fact. I just do not yet believe it. Yet.
I am full of some resentments. I myself was in denial of that!!!! I resent. . .well one helluva lot of things. It is a freedom to let that stuff loose.
I continue to move forward. So much life left undiscovered. So much life left to enjoy. It is tough to watch the person - that man I was so terrified I would lose, that man I was so desperate to love me - crumble before my very eyes. I feel like I am being sucked towards his sadness . . . . ..and I choose to not let that happen. And that right there, causes guilt. In my own humanness, I fight it off a lot lately.
Liz
I Hear You Liz
Submitted by kellyj on
And I see what you are saying.....my T has called me on using "if's" and "but's" too often in my language....too funny. And to the point....being indirect and not being assertive is leaving room for error and not sounding very sure. That's still a part of the left over habits or walking on egg shells and living in fear. At least I can say at this point.....it's a habit and I am aware of it:)
At least in what I said with my wife and I.....I am sure of it and we have discussed this together.....not too many "if's" or "but's" left unanswered for us.
As far as what you said about about the dry drunk vs seeing it or not...at least from what I know at least....I think both are true or can be. Not with my wife but my past brief encounter with someone who has dissociated to an extreme that they themselves really are functionally delusional...to witness this and then realize that this is what is happening (their distortions become real inside their head)....this may be and probably is the exception but I also know that this is an outside possibility. Not for your H I'm saying.....just in reality in general. Is this psychotic episodes?? I don't know that but actually losing touch with reality I think is the definition of this even if it comes in and out at time? This is where I step back and defer to the experts.
When my wife and I were in our T's office a while ago....he slipped me a hint that was directed at my wife saying "denial" as the source and not one of these other things. In our case and as this has proven too be true.....she can see it and clearly does. Before she would admit or talk about it with me....I was left guessing?
I get in context to what the counselor was saying about the dry drunk though. You could call it a habit if that is all it was, but as you know....there is more behind alcoholism than just being in the habit of walking in the door and pouring yourself a drink and just no realizing it. lol
Going back to the tool box and the hammer analogy.....if you only have a hammer? Then what? If you have found a way to get by using a hammer on everything and it has worked for the most part but not very well......learning and finding alternative tools is a lot of work and effort. Even when you have others and you know how to use them.....the old trusty hammer is one you are most familiar with and at times... even without thinking about it....you reach for it first before anything else.
I think this is more accurate and true than just being a metaphor. Speaking strictly for myself.....this is absolutely true. I see where I fit both of the things that these two counselor have said and I think they are both right if they were talking about me and my past.
Still.....the PTSD is a lot more elusive. I did not realize this until recently and I still was aware of everything else. There are things like this too and it would not be easy to try and second guess this for someone else like you are saying.
In the end, it is not my place to judge. What it is my place to do - to decide when that final line gets crossed in my mind, and I slip into the chasm of "It is over." I think that is a fact. I just do not yet believe it. Yet.
I am full of some resentments. I myself was in denial of that!!!! I resent. . .well one helluva lot of things. It is a freedom to let that stuff
Halleluyah !! You just crossed over!!! lol Boundaries, Boundaries, Boundaries....Can I hear that again one time brothers and sisters!! lol
I think if you don't have it in your mind firmly and clearly what you want and believe in and are not willing to stand your ground....this in itself is a problem. The standing your ground part is still hard even when you know what these things are.
I remember Melissa commenting to you about the "tough love" idea and why this has it down sides. I won't reiterate the reasons why. I think having firm beliefs that you are grounded in and can assert them well is the foundation of what you are saying and I couldn't agree with you more.
This is where I can be empathetic with women in general. Men have a distinct advantage all things considered and women can be at a distinct disadvantage from not being taught to be this way in the first place. I can clearly see that pretty easily and it really put you in a position that you could not for see happening under normal circumstances without something like ADHD to fight up against. Just being me with my own life experiences makes it easier for me to do this with my wife than it does the other way around. I am by nature...a passive person and pretty open minded (not head strong or aggressive ) and I clearly remember how difficult it was to acquire these learned skills along the way. It took me years to become more that way and one way that happened was playing sports where you are allowed to be (actually you need to be) with a referee there to call you out and keep it fair. That's a good training ground to learn in a controlled environment but it is a learned skill none the less. I don't think men are born that way either and women can learn these things as easily and readily as men but by default I think....just fewer actually do?
Not so much any more I think....but back in the day....it was less common. I saw this very thing however with the women I competed with. They had no problems being assertive and putting on the same air of confidence as men even if they were still feeling insecure about their abilities.
Putting this another way.....they could put on the false bravado equally well as any of the boys/men that I encountered. Sometimes maybe even better if I recall:) lol
J
Going back to the tool box and the hammer analogy.....if you onl
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
<< Going back to the tool box and the hammer analogy.....if you only have a hammer? Then what? If you have found a way to get by using a hammer on everything and it has worked for the most part but not very well......learning and finding alternative tools is a lot of work and effort. Even when you have others and you know how to use them.....the old trusty hammer is one you are most familiar with and at times... even without thinking about it....you reach for it first before anything else.<<<
Oh wow....so true. H's only tool has been "the hammer". In his mind, it's the quick and easy way to "pay back" and respond to any frustrations.
Good question....
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
<<< Did his sisters see any of this? My father behaved completely different with my sisters. They never saw any of the things that I have mentioned here on this forum aside from his moodiness and irritability. <<<<
YES! Father in law was totally different with his daughters. He never hit them, didn't yell at them. But, they did witness their dad being too hard on their brothers, and they have commented on it. They often say that "dad mellowed out a bit by the time we were born," but much of it was because they were girls.
FIL never yelled at his wife, either....even when she deserved it.
<<<<Only my mother and I saw this side of him. Our whole family was passive including me....it never would have occurred to me to speak out or be combative....are you kidding? Way too scary.<<<<
Nearly everyone in H's family is far too passive. H is not passive to me, but he is passive to others. When H's sister witnessed a couple of H's outrageous behaviors, she would quietly tell me that H is a lot like their father. Except their father never yelled or argued with his wife....ever.
It Was My Anger That Brought Me To Terms...
Submitted by kellyj on
with my ADHD.
When H's sister witnessed a couple of H's outrageous behaviors, she would quietly tell me that H is a lot like their father. Except their father never yelled or argued with his wife....ever.
Interesting corollary but yet different. I'm glad you answer this for me....I really was curious and too the day still wonder what the turning point was. I think for my mother father and I....it was my fathers health that really changed things. The difference was that he did yell at my mother at times and they fought and argued a lot only after my sisters had left house when I was 12. This proved to be the battle zone period that my sisters completely missed. Without them to buffer me and draw attention away....all eyes turned to me and my behaviors and it seemed to suddenly over night....I was now on the radar in full view and I had not where to hide. That' why I was curious.
It seemed as long as my sisters were around....things were in full denial and ignorant bliss. I felt responsible to keep the ruse up for my sisters and pretend nothing was happening and my mother was made responsible for me and everything I did so she was not immune and was as much to blame for me as anything that I did on my own. I remember laying in bed trying to sleep and could hear my father screaming at my mother as if I was in another building. He was chewing her out for every mistake that he felt that I made this was clearly my mothers fault as I lay there listening. In my thinking.....this is where he saw my mother in me (the ADHD) but of course could not say that directly since no one knew at the time.
I wrote about this already a little so I won't retell the story but I think this might be something to consider based on what I saw happen which changed the face of this again....seemingly over night. My mother started to admit things to me that I didn't understand at the time. She would say things like " I knew at one point that you father would never change." Pretty intuitive of her really. Then she told me that when she was in her early thirties, she felt like something was wrong and thought she should go seek psychiatric help but knew my father would never pay for such baloney. Again...pretty intuitive and seemingly....not so much in denial herself at least to that point. She would keep saying to me...I wish we could help you more and that never made any sense to me. Why? I'm just fine...nothing wrong here! lol
She saw what my father saw but nobody told me anything of course. And of course....she recognized the problem herself but as she put it to me as my father saw it.....a bunch of baloney and psycho babble waste of time. I have to admit I see my mother quite differently now than I did for a long time looking back. There was a point in time (I think coinciding with meno-pause) that my mother grew some big cajonies all of a sudden and took my father on and would not back down from him. This was such a departure for her that neither my father or myself knew exactly what to make of it. For me...she stood up for me and stopped my father in his tracks. I think it was then that he realized that he really needed her since the doctors had told him he only had a limited number of years left to live.
If you understood my mother.....her family was her top priority and she told me that she would die first before one of her own children. The woman had moxy at the very least and she was in many ways....a lot smarter than my father. My father had street smarts coming out his ears but he couldn't take on my mother when she started using her head and wouldn't back down. I don't think it was a well thought through plan....she had just reached the end of her rope and she saw how this was effecting me at the same time. Put two and two together and she became something to recon with. lol My father did not know what to do with her when she went from passive to rather aggressively assertive. My mother never swore but in those few and far between moments.....she would blurt out " I've had it with this SHIT!!"
Oooooooohhh!!!!!! When she said that....it was time to duck and cover! She didn't yell or scream.....it was more "the look". When "the look" came out...no one was going anywhere and my father would get really quiet!!! ha ha She didn't turn this on me but I still was not going to get near her when she was like this. Not scary like my father......just a woman with on a mission and there was just no stopping her! lol It was the bravest act of tough love that I have ever seen and it really changed things for me when she did this. I admire her courage and know without questioning it that at least in my mothers case....she loved me very much. This was the bond that I formed with her from that point on which is also why my father would corner me and was jealous of me after that point like my T explained to me. I totally see this now but this of course....was a response to his behavior in the first place and not by design.
Narcs have a bad habit of not getting the concept of cause and effect very well. lol That may be putting it mildly. lol
So this really does confirm to me what I saw...and still see with my sisters even today. The whole family was in denial right up until my next oldest sister left for college when she was 18 proceeded by my oldest sister only 2 years before. In many ways....there memories do not include both the good and the bad parts so they are still living in the place that they left off from.
This also helps me understand just why I didn't sink too deep into the same pattern of thinking as my sisters and I really have my mother to thank for doing what she did and keeping this from happening. She really was like a mother Grizzly bear when it came to her kids and I feel very fortunate for having an example of a lot of strength and courage and overcoming her own fear at he own expense for me when she saw I needed to have someone have my back:)
So I saw my own anger erupt from me that was too close to what I remembered in my father.... PTSD, emotional lability, ADHD or not.....this was my wake up call to figure this out because as I remembered my mother with my father.....this was completely unacceptable behavior. That in this respect....was something I clearly saw and was not in denial of ever on the occasions when this happened with me. Not that often.....but even once was too much as far as I was concerned but the fact that I couldn't control it even under extreme circumstances was what really brought my ADHD to my full attention which is how I ended up finding out I had it in the first place.
I would not want to tell anyone to do what my mother did since this could back fire with the wrong person and in most relationships but....I have to say that when she had her back to the wall and nothing left to lose....this proved to be exactly what changed the course of our family and changed my life at that point for the better and I will always be grateful to her for doing that for me. it proved to be the same lesson that I have carried with me to do the same thing for myself as well:)
J
My H's family is in total denial about their dad....
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
On one hand, they will mention that he was hard on the boys and that he "mellowed out" with age, but they don't put any of it in the context of "abuse". Instead that act like he was father of the year. And, even more so with their mom who've they've canonized while still alive. lol
For years, I would have to also listen to H talk about how great his dad was (this was after the early years when he said that he hated him). Oh, and years ago, I got RAGED at for making the mistake of leaving H alone with his dad for less than 2 hours! lol
I can remember being in church with H about 6 years ago.. It was Father's Day and H had been horrible the day before. During the sermon, there was talk about being a good father, examples, etc, and H actually got tears in his eyes. I thought that maybe he was regretting his bad behavior the day before. After church I asked him about the tears ad he said, "oh, I was thinking about my dad and how I hope to be as great a dad as him." Ugh....yuck! my heart sank.
Only in the last couple of years has H admitted that both of his parents were lousy parents. But his siblings are still in full denial.
Bingo ! Back At You...The "STORY"
Submitted by kellyj on
Yes!!! This is part of the "Story"....referring to Eckart Tolle's concept that we all have a "story" or story line running in the background on our hard drive in our heads. (para phrasing here). For many of us....it begins something like this......
Thou shalt honor thy mother and father that your days may be prolonged in the land which the LORD your God gives you. Honour thy father and thy mother, includes esteem of them, shown in our conduct; obedience to their lawful commands; come when they call you, go where they send you, do what they bid you, refrain from what they forbid you; and this, as children, cheerfully, and from a principle of love. Also submission to their counsels and corrections. Endeavouring, in every thing, to comfort parents, and to make their old age easy; maintaining them if they need support, which our Saviour makes to be particularly intended in this commandment, Mt 15:4-6. Careful observers have noted a peculiar blessing in temporal things on obedient, and the reverse on disobedient children.
Mmmmmm (me as a kid thinking here) " So let me get this straight??? If I don't do these things as God has said...he's cutting me off early and I'm bad on top of it. Holy Cow! I'm in some deep shit now!!!!....I'm going straight to Hell!!!! (lol) Oh well....I'm already in such deep shit already (ADHD behaviors)....I might as well enjoy the ride while I'm here with what little time I have left (apparently?) mmmm??? I guess I just won't worry about that bridge until I come to it? (now not now thinking) Since I'm already going to Hell anyway.....I might as well enjoy myself while I'm here??? Yeah.....that's the ticket! Okay??.... let me think here???
DEAR GOD ....(praying) "I'm sorry God but my Dad's an asshole and I can't seem to follow your instructions? Does it really hurt a lot in Hell? Does it feel the same to burn in Hell like it does here on Earth? Please God....ask the Devil if I can have a cooler spot so it doesn't hurt as bad......Amen."
" There. I should be alright for the time being...like I said, I won't worry about it for now:)"
As I was then and still am today......I have an inherent gift and infinite ability to get to the lowest common denominator in all things rather quickly! lol And then rationalize and explain it all away.
This is where it starts. I know I already said this in one of my earlier posts.... that I got kicked out of Sunday school when I was 5 for being disruptive and asking too many question like this and talking too much. Unfortunately for me back then....I really wasn't kidding and wanted to know!!!
Sorry OW.....your comment about sitting in church brought me back here but to point this out and say that this IS really where the story in your head starts and where a lot of these things come from when you are talking about denial. These concepts and how we interpret these things that get carried forward in our thinking and in our personal life "Story" that are part of that tape loop that we get stuck in our thinking is a big part of this I think and we never go back and question our own tape and how it got there then this becomes a problem!! lol
But seriously....this really is how someone like myself with ADHD has to find some kind of conclusion (along with all the inherent tendencies) to these things.... and since we tend to ruminate and run negative tape loops in our thinking anyway....it only exacerbates the issue.
And yes....resounding what you just described in how your H and your H's sister dealt with this and still do to a certain degree....denial of what is the question? Burning in Hell since you already know how Fucked you are? If your T's tears in being brought to this fact once again since he knows this already.....he will be thinking he screwed up and this is just wishful thinking and wishing it was not so?" (wishing he didn't have to burn for eternity....only kidding) " I feel the flames of Hell getting closer every minute and I'm on borrowed time already.....that bridge is getting closer and closer each day and there's nothing I can do to stop it!!!!!"
Talk about anxiety? Sheese!
I'm really being factitious and not trying to make fun of anyones belief system either.....it is the same one I have up to a point but I'm just illustrating the point that this is how these things get mixed up in our subconscious if we keep getting them reinforced and never find any resolution to them along the way.
My second eldest sister is really bad about this kind of thing and she is the one who is the most severely in this kind of denial. I see it in her and I here it repeatedly even on this forum.."well....this is what/how I we were taught ."
Yes....that's an accurate statement....this is HOW we were taught.....it doesn't say this is HOW we interpret these things and come to our own conclusions and then WHAT we do with it.
My sister is big on "having a personal relationship with Jesus" for example. Again not criticizing this or not understanding the concept...but going back to my original story line now...
(me and my story)...:"Great.....now I've got to have Jesus pointing out to me how bad I'm Fucking up everyday on top of everyone else who keeps reminding me of the inevitable clear and apparent doom of my own impending demise. Just what I need!!! Why can't I just be left alone in my own blissful state of ignorant denial until that day happens!!! errrrrrrrr. I wish she would just quit reminding me of this!!!! Is this called the super ego....I think it is? lol
To this day...I still hate going to church (and don't....I get all sweaty and itchy and it's not from guilt....it's from this!!) and it use to have this same effect on me when I was little. The negative reaction it had then still has a component of that built in it today and I am totally aware it. Again to make the point.....this is where this kind of familial denial gets taken way to far and gets out of hand very quickly. I have long since made a conscious decision not to throw the baby out with the bath water in all this stuff:)
I keep saying things like there is a reason for everything and you've got to get to the source to be able to see it. This is why.
In my sister case.....she got smacked in the face with it and it did shake her loose a bit.....I found a hole in with her but that window opens and closes as time goes on. I see her slipping further away and back further in denial as time goes on. The event that happened was when her daughter came to her and admitted she was purging and had Bolemia only when it got so bad that it was a cry for help. My sister had to face why this happened and where these stories in her head came from that caused this reaction or response from her won daughter. Clearly...she did not abuse or try and tell her daughter that she was fat or was not skinny enough....but all you would have to do it look at my model skinny sister and sit and eat dinner with her and see her eating salad and hamburgers without any bun while everyone else is stuffing their face with Pizza to figure this one out.
And to further make this point.....if a group or the family want to go out to dinner and it is a restaurant that doesn't have a "skinny" menu.....my sister will say everything "EXCEPT" that as the reason why she doesn't want to go there and will in the same breath.....suggest one that does.
Is she not aware of what she is doing like Liz was suggesting? That she is not aware that she is with purpose and intention....selecting restaurants that have only "skinny" low calorie options available? No. She see's it..... and will at time even sheepishly admit (when she has to) that the menu doesn't include things that she can't eat. WTF? That you "can't eat?" Did the doctor tell you that you were too fat and needed to lose weight? I seriously doubt that by looking at your arms.....they're like tooth pick already." lol
The answer is no. The real reason is that my sister is in denial. The real reason is that my mother ( by not fault or doing on her own) was born a beauty and had a figure like a model without having to try. But this was my mother undoing as well in that she saw this as her sole means to define who she was and made that very important as a means for my sister to follow by pointing out to both my sisters the times when they were putting on a few more pounds than she thought they should. Her example and model to follow was unattainable for either of my sisters and this caused both of them a great deal of heart ache and pain while growing up despite being (both) very attractive and not having any real weight problems. Only later in life especially when my mother was losing her mind with Alzheimer did she start saying things that showed how prejudice she was towards over weight people. She even asked on time to have a different caregiver because the one they had sent her was "fat". This is the thing that only comes out when someone starts losing their real inhibitions and her unconscious was starting to get "unlocked." It was fascinating to watch and listen to. My mother biases were finally starting to appear which was easy to see. Before that....she would have never said anything like that which would be completely out of character for her.
Mmmmmm....out of character? Like in a play with a story line? The problem is that my mother was in denial over many things and this much....even I saw when I was a little kid to a certain point. She would say one thing that completely was in conflict with something else which left me going. Huh?
I missed all this body image stuff completely since I was a boy and I was skinny as a rail anyway and was always in good physical shape from exercising so much. In my mom's ideal.....I fit the image so there was no problem and it so therefore.....no need to say anything.
This was so far off my radar or concept in thinking that I never would have even thought in these terms to have predicted such a thing?? Lke WHY?? I didn't exercised to be skinny. I exercised to be good in sports. In my case.....I thought I was too skinny and wanted to be bigger....just the opposite so the last thing on my mind was this whole hidden drama that I never even knew existed until my sisters daughter came forth with her Bolemia. I had no idea or concept of any of this until I talked to my sister about this in a very tearful engagement.(their tears not mine) I was too shocked in the moment from this realization but in my fashion went.....yep....par for the course. Why not.....this is just the same damn thing playing out with different people for a different reason....the one I don''t have to worry about or has ever been a concern. I was completely insulated from any of this....
however......I do remember my second eldest sister wrapping her thighs in cellophane in high school thinking.... that's a weird thing to do? And why...and does it work? The answer is of course no.....it only makes you look silly (it was a fad at the time) again....out of some magazine that said it would work...right) And even to the point....my sister and I both share being on the slender side anyway and she was just the opposite of fat but.....she didn't have my moms figure and that was the ideal and model that she had in her mind.
The message my sister got was to honor her parents and obey them and do what they said and be like them. And she took that to heart and wanted to be a good girl and please her parents and do and think the same as them and do what ever they say. Which she did and is still doing to this day.
The problem with this thinking is two fold: First.....the assumption in the bibles fifth commandment is that everyone is already doing this already and your parents who are telling you do be this way are this way already. BUUUUUUUZZZZZZZZZZ. WRONG! Next.......
Second.....somewhere in the bible (probably many many places) says that these things work both ways.....honoring your children is in there somewhere....along with taking responsibility, growing up and raising your kids....not them raising you.
I don't know the versus or where it says these things but I am absolutely sure it says this somewhere:) lol
OW.....this is exactly the kind of things that I can see in the stories or things that you mention about your H and his family. If this is the case for him (and for you) I think this might give you an idea of how many different directions that these things can go right under the nose of your very own brothers and sisters to the degree that no one can see the elephant in the room any more. This is how denial works right here.
J
Yes denial
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
Yes, denial is alive and well in H's family. I am not kidding when I say that I think they would truly fall apart if they were to intellectually confront the image they have of their parents with reality. I think it would shake their cores.
Over the years, they have gotten some feedback from outsiders that there was something wrong with the way their family operated, but instead of stopping and thinking about whether the comments were true, they just dismissed them.
When H's sister's then-boyfriend picked her up for a first date, my H (who was about 19 at the time), answered the door in JUST HIS UNDERWEAR...and not even boxers!) I learned about this just a few years ago. I asked H about this. Why would he do that? Why didnt his mother ever teach them that that wasn't appropriate? His parents were both college educated people...they weren't rural hicks. Anyway, the BF told H's sister that he was appalled that her brother would answer the front door like that. Instead of agreeing with him, H's sister was appalled that someone would criticize (or judge) her family. She used the words "judge". Hell, I would have judged him (and the whole family), too.