I have no problem with the idea of going. I have gone before. But....
Each time we've tried, the same things happen....
1) H wants to do ALL of the talking. The therapist, at the beginning, will PROMISE that I will have a fair share of time, but no therapist has been able to achieve that goal. H will typically interrupt me or call me a liar.
2) If I say ANYTHING that paints him in any sort of negative light, he blows up and says that I'm mud-slinging or bad-mouthing him. He'll later say that I'm supposed to say 10 good things for every 1 bad thing about him. The therapist has little time to be listening to 10 good things for every one "bad thing" (omg!).
3) he wants to down play his alcoholism and claim that it hasn't affected his family at all.
4) he wants to claim that I turned our kids against him.
Best wishes....
Submitted by c ur self on
Suggestion....To get the most from the experience I suggest you agree to a few ground rules before the first session....Absolutely no interrupting each other under any conditions (even if one of you believes or knows the other is lying)....Deal internally with your own personal feelings....I feel this or that...Agree to refrain from judgments and accusations....No telling each other how or what they think....
Both of you deserve to be heard no matter how painful (just because a person's reality is skewed, doesn't change the fact that that's the mind they are stuck in...Victim's or those lost in denial for instance)...
.If you can agree to these simple rules of courtesy you can eliminate a lot of negative emotion...It's just so important to not use this trained Professional as just an expensive referee....That can be such a disappointing waste....
Just my thoughts, from my own mistakes...
Blessings
C
C...I totally agree with your
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
C...I totally agree with your "rules". We've tried those before. H really can't control himself, and then he "looks bad" to the therapist and blames me...and won't go back. Each time we've gone, we've had rules put in place, including a rule that what is said in the session will not carry into our home. Meaning that if I say something in session that H doesn't like, he's not supposed to yell at me at home about it. H will "promise" to follow that rule, but immediately break it with some lame reason.
I'm thinking of letting him do most of the talking because he may just reveal a lot about himself that way.
The last time we had a
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
The last time we had a therapist, H kept calling me a liar, and the therapist told him to stop, but H acted like a petulant child, including putting his dirty shoes up onto the therapists white upholstery. When I whispered for him to remove his shoes from the furniture, he refused. Then the therapist ordered him to move his feet off the furniture.
Good luck, OWW
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
...it's been such an issue for you (it would be for me) when your H tells you things that didn't happen, or tells you your motives, when they were not your motives...I can imagine that there is some solace in seeing another person, a professional, dealing with these kinds of accusations and contrafactual claims on your H's part. I do think sometimes we need to know, from the outside, from someone else, that what we're going through in a relationship really is happening.
But like C said, it would be great if the therapy sessions could get past the therapist refereeing .
I guess my basic question to you is, what, specifically (not generally) do you want out of this therapy, this time....regardless of what your husband does in session?
I hope you get it. And I hope you go after it.
Wishing you well, OWW
I guess I do, in some way,
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
I guess I do, in some way, want a referee. I'm tired of my H telling me that "no therapist would agree with" something that I say or do.
We went today to the therapist. Before we went, H insisted that his alcoholism NOT be mentioned. He said that he'll mention it in some later session.
I am friggin annoyed that the T never asked about such things from the beginning. That should be a basic Q. Instead, H tried to claim that I'm addicted to my iPad which I use for my business!! Yes,I use it a lot. It's the only thing I use for my business. I don't even own a laptop. I just use an iPad....it has a Bluetooth keyboard.
H is soooo needy that if I'm doing work (like updating six of my websites and/or syncing calendars, or completing orders, and H wants to say something, he gets upset if I say, "just a minute" or "let me finish typing this sentence". He doesn't even want me to finish typing a sentence.
Tonight H announced that from now on, when he begins talking then I am to immediately stop what I'm doing. Lol...sure....that's not happening. He said that if I don't stop immediately, he'll move out. Ok....so how would that get what he wants???? Lololol. Sure, move out...then I'll never have to give him one moment's attention.
He's mad from the therapist meeting since I said that he's needy and impatient.
Yes, there was a promise made in the T's office not to carry emotions or discussions outside the office, but H couldn't help himself. He kept saying, "well, I just need to say this". Or "this isn't exactly dealing with what was said in the T's office so....."
OMG
There is a better way OWW....
Submitted by c ur self on
(I guess I do, in some way, want a referee.)
Some times, it's just time to get real with ourselves...It sounds like your husband wants to mange your life and make rules for you, instead of focusing on himself....Based on your comments he has a very real control issue...It sounds like he doesn't like himself...(insecurities)
It never works when we make our spouse our identity, instead of something greater!
You want a referee because you don't like him....Have you told him that?? He is punishing you w/ non-acceptance....And you seem to have lost respect for him...
Truth is painful....But there is no substitute that will last ...Our will power eventually fails us also....
I personally think you two need separate counseling (as we do, and I'm taking the lead) until you can see yourselves...If you both get focused internally for a year or so, you may find out life can be good again...You are letting each other off the hook w/ blame, and projection...We have to do the work on ourselves or a referee is the best we can hope for...
Best wishes
I understand about bad experience's and doubt....
Submitted by c ur self on
Try to not go in feeling hopeless or here we go again....It will hurt you....I agree w/ you, that you should let him talk, (do your best to not interject comments or corrections) sometimes with proper guidance and calm emotion people can talk themselves into awareness of their own behavior... If he feels supported instead of going on the defensive right off, you have a much better chance of accomplishing something....Something inside him drove him to make this appointment, and that is positive in my view....
Maybe you can start with defining roles...He may see your role differently than you do....And you may see his role differently than you he does...If you two can come to an agreement on that alone it could clear up a lot....Just a thought....We need the same!:)
C
Yes, there is a role issue.
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
Yes, there is a role issue.
For most of our married life, I've been a stay at home mom, devoted to family. And always at his beck and call.
Lol...when cell phones first came out and were expensive, H bought me one. I was happily surprised. Lol....come to find out that he only bought it for me so that he could contact me at a moment's notice. When I would answer the phone and say, "hey I'm in the check out line at the grocery, let me call you back," he would get ANGRY and say, "Why did I get you that phone?" I said that if he expected me to be available 24/7 by phone, then I don't want a phone. And, God forbid if I don't answer the phone. He'll send threatening texts if I don't answer. OMG
Now that I run a business, he's jealous of the business. He's jealous of the time it takes. He's extremely needy.
He told the T that he doesn't feel loved when I'm not available or when I put him off to finish business or whatever. OMG
H calls me a liar too
Submitted by jennalemone on
I get it that these things are happening and these things start to affect your own memory and sanity. When you are called a liar for your own memory, when the ONE person in the world who promised to love and care for you attacks you, when it seems that person is rallying forces against you.....you wonder what planet you are on and if you belong in it. It's not just that you have to do battle, it is that you aren't sure of your self anymore. And it becomes your job to listen (not react or respond) to form your own opinions of what is happening to you. You can't count on a counselor to be wise or have the right methods for you....but you can come into a conversation and listen and learn.
Calling people a liar is downright disrespect and fight mongering. Don't prove. Your truth is your truth. If he has different truths, that is him....he is telling himself lies (or he is able to fight dirty to manipulate showing you he does not value an intimate partnership). Never doubt your own thoughts or feelings. Let H's name calling and manipulations roll off your back with determination to learn more about your self and how to remain strong within your own truth. Each face to face where you remain true to your self and learn about those around you, you become stronger. Life is challenging. Life is lonely when someone you want to love only fights you. Learn the lessons. Don't hold on to feeling bad because reality is difficult. Think about a person you admire who is strong yet loving and thoughtful. Be that person in the conversation and know that it is enough. This will give you the strength to decide if you want to keep on in this situation where you must bite your tongue to get along and be happy in your own strength OR if you need the company of someone who loves you and builds you up - waking each morning with a grateful smile.
Why am I still in this situation? Because I am older and I should have had the courage and given myself permission and found the situations where I could have found my own peace and support. My regrets. I didn't know how Social Security works...it is not enough for women who worked part time while taking total care of the children and house and food and accounting at home for part of their career. Men whose career we supported (whose clothes we bought, cleaned-and IRONED in those days) get ALL the Social Security of a lifetime of working their top 25 productive years. We get half of theirs or all of what WE alone paid in. From the days where women worked at home to support the men, I am afraid of poverty of a woman with not enough Social Security and investments to live by myself. I would have to give half of my 401K to H if we split and he has very little invested to share. Now I must just find ways to cope with a difficult situation. Finding inner strength is the only option I have.
Jumping on the Word Liar.....Jenna
Submitted by kellyj on
I really recommend to anyone...looking up a show call ..."Dishonesty The Truth About Lies". It's on Netflix if you have access to it? The researcher who compiled all the information ..the narrator or host of the program....actually said he has devoted his entire life to what he calls...the "study or irrationality" in which he claims is the source of lying? And in the show..he shows...all the ways that people lie and we all lie all the time and we don't even realize it since some lies are so acceptable...that we don't even realize it is a lie? I won't try and retell the whole thing here...but I thought about what you had said about being resigned at least...to being where you are as a means to survive yourself with no other options available to you and I get that in context? What can you do now after the fact?
This brings me back to when I was a child and finding my way out of a difficult and really horrible position I was in...with no way out? And the way I survived...was to escape. I am an escape artist after all and this is not so far from the truth?
If I was trapped in a room with the door locked and no windows? I'd punch a hole in the sheet rock and kick the siding out from the inside and crawl through the hole and get out that way? Just because there is no door or window....doesn't mean you can't make one? Know what I mean?
And just to give you an idea....just this morning, my wife tells me she has our T e-mail address which I have never had? So when I asked her for the address she told me what it was but in the address the she said "doctor"....as being part of it? And I asked....."spelled out....or abbreviated dr?" And she said...."I don't know?"
"What you mean you don't know? ( BS meter going off!!!! ) You have it don't you? How did you get it? Did he send it you in an e-mail...or did you talk to him on the phone?"
"I talked to him and he told me...but when I sent him the email I wanted to send....I'm just hoping it's right?"
(errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!! LOL ) "Hoping it's right????? Did you ask him then to clarify which one?"
"Yes"
(errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!! lol ) "'Well then....how can you not know what it is for crying out loud and how can you know that what you sent will even get to him???"
"Not everyone is like you....there are some of us who don't believe in things being absolutely definite things being absolutely right like you think there are?"
"Okay...then tell me.....how do you know how to spell the word doctor.....if you can't remember how to spell it? I would bet my life and a million dollars on the fact...that the spelling of the word doctor.....is D-O-C-T-O-R right now this very instance and I learned to spell the word doctor in grade school 50 years ago? You're telling me...that you can't remember what he said yesterday and can't remember which way he told you...that's exactly what you are saying and there is no other possibility here? You just made that up ...right then in the moment. That was a complete confabulation and absolute Bull Shit!! Really....there is a group of people out there....who cannot commit to how you spell and freaking word....like there is some alternative spelling out there ...that no one knows of?? Give me a break!!! You really think you can just make shit up like that...and think people actually believe you? I've got news for you sister.....they may not be saying it...but they're thinking it just like me and my Bull Shit-o-meter is going off like gang busters!!! You know...you treat people like they stupid and like you think you can get away with it....and they thinking the same thing of you....that you're an idiot and a disrespectful one on top of it!!! You treat people like they were born yesterday...or like they are little kids...since the only people who would believe what you just said....was a 6 six year old? Really....you really think....you are getting away with this..and you wonder why people get angry with you? It doesn't matter what words you choose to use.....if the content of what you say...came straight out a horses asshole and is about as creative as an excuse....as what a 6 years old might come up with? Nice try and that one....but if you wondered why I get angry......I get angry because of the Horse Shit that comes out of your flipp'in mouth.....instead of saying......"I don't remember?"
All you needed to say was...." I don't remember? " There is nothing wrong with that?
But there is something horribly and terribly wrong....with speaking out of your own ass....and making "Shit Up"....and saying it's some kind of belief system you have? Right. So what you are saying is....there is group of people out there just like you....who believe in more than one way to spell the word Doctor? Really?
"Well try this one on for size? I believe there are people out there just like you.....who use Bull Shit instead of the truth...and try and replace reality with fantasy and believe....that if you just make up complete and utter gibberish and Horse Shit excuses...that people will actually believe you when in reality they don't. But most won't say anything like I do. That's what I believe? How bout them apples. Buck wheat?"
When you got nothing left to lose....the truth comes easy. Just so you know?
J
J, on lying and liars
Submitted by jennalemone on
J, I get that you want/need to let off steam about this and many things. And maybe to add to the conversation and learn. I do this too sometimes and this is a good place because the ramifications of inopportune fury carry with it no consequence since we are anonymous.
However, to help you and to help me..... Can you go back and read what you wrote and say what you meant to say in more eloquent, more succinct manner?
Let me try to (not to put words into your mouth) spew back at you what you are relating to us....whether it is your intention or not....this is what I am gathering from your rant....and it was a rant. I rant too....why not sometimes?
What I am hearing you say: "I am trying to illustrate what a lie is. A lie is chaotic, rude, non-sensical and crappy. It makes the liar become less. It makes the one lied to "less". It cheapens everyone." Lies hurt and lies make any partnership or connection a farce. Love cannot exist in the face of lies. And us, who have been lied to, we become fools and vulnerable in love. Nearly crazy because what we hope for is not happening for us."
Is this what you are saying? Or could you interpret what you said more closely?
Or is what your subconsious is saying: "I am afraid that my wife has plans to leave me and she is being secretive and not partnering with me and I must strike at her before she strikes at me so that I don't have to hurt so much."?
I will look up the show about lying. I saw a part of it on TV, wanted to watch the whole thing, but missed most of it. I will look it up, because it is such an issue with H and me.
You Are Right Jenna
Submitted by kellyj on
That was a rant and a vent. It was frustration anger......that my wife and I did talk about later and I finally got to the bottom of what was behind this just for my own understanding which was the first time ever in our relationship.......that she gave me a reason. A real "reason"....if not for anything else, for my own resolution and clarity of what I am actually seeing? Specifically....which is all I have ever asked for? And I have been fighting and asking for this....for the entire time we been together?
But first.....I appreciate you giving me a good example of a alternative way to express this which is always useful and beneficial for me to see and think about? Examples are always a good way to learn and work from and that much I really can use. Thanks for that.
And just to address what OW was saying that I am afraid of my wife leaving? She is leaving...I am already past that? My feelings on that is that the shield of protection that she hides behind or uses as some kind of leverage against me ( as a threat to gain compliance )....is gone and off the table? I am free to speak my mind with not worrying about her feelings what so ever? Not as a means to strike back....but to 'speak" in terms...of exactly what I see in front me.....and describe what I see in any way that fits the disrespect that is being thrown at me....with no regard for the impact how it comes out?
The truth is still the truth....regardless of how you say it and if it doesn't matter how you say it ( no fear of any consequences what so ever ).....then like I said...the words you choose to use whether is "sensitively crafted".....or said with "blunt force"......still means the same thing? The point I was trying to impress on her since "words" seem to be such a thing with her...and one word suddenly takes everything you just said....invalidated if it is not said in a very specific way....that only she knows the secret to? Apparently....as she feels, there is one magic way to say something...and only one way and if it isn't said in this one magic way....and nothing you say is heard and it all gets thrown out the window?
And as it came down to what we both have issues with?
I have issues.....with people who will not give you a straight answer....even if it's a lie. When someone asks me a question....I do my best to answer them the best I can? Even if ( hypothetically speaking ) I needed to lie or not tell the blunt cold hard truth without reservation for good reason or even just as a BS excuse.....I still give a direct answer to the question...and do not try to evade or try and tap dance around not answering? Evading, answering a question with another questions as a defensive maneuver or any other method uses in avoiding just answering the question....would be better served in not saying anything at all and just staring at me blankly. At least I can infer......that they don't know and they just don't want to say? Nothing from nothing...is still nothing? I can live with that. What I really can't tolerate....is someone doing anything and everything they can...from simply refusing to respond to what you just asked? A simple....calmly and non offensive answer to a simple honest and direct question with no ulterior motives or anything else behind it? As I told my wife. Withholding...but doing it by saying anything....but what you want to know?
This is tied to something else that really is ( in mind )....a childish thing that I see both....her and her brother do and I do see this....or have done this before in my own way....but here's the deal? I remember it from my childhood. That's how far back I have to go....to find this in myself which is what is more just lowering themselves and I really don't react at all or need to say anything but it does cause me to lose respect for someone when they do it and I just don't say anything? This is not subtle or subliminal either. This is done overtly...for a very specific reason that is clear what is being done....for their own amusement and nothing else?
I have to make this up since I almost don't even know how myself...even if I am trying to give you an example and it is part of what happened with my wife in conjunction with this email address?
My wife...was the one...who made it a point to say she had the email address right? It wasn't something I wanted or had ever even thought about before? Just more of a passing comment ...I thought...and then I thought....it might be nice to have if I ever needed it? Great...no problem right?
"Can I get that from you in case I need it sometime?" A simple...honest...straight forward question that included my motive and why I am asking? The same as anyone might do in the moment as a causal non offensive and somewhat reasonable or even expected thing to say? Then comes.....
"No, you can't have it." And I won't beat around the bush here.....that was a set up? A set up saying " Look what I have....and you don't get to have any."
If that is not what a child of about 6 years old would do....I don't know what is? Like I said....I had to go back so far in my memory.....I can't even remember the specifics...but I do remember do it? In grade school!!! And her brother does the same thing. They covet. And it's really pathetic....to see a grown adult...covet like that and take pleasure in doing it...the same as a child does?
So that's how that started....with the coveting first? Which is just pathetic and nothing to get upset about which I don't get angry as I said? But it does cause me to immediately lower the respect I have for the person doing and yes.....unless I can connect something that I can understand as the reason why someone might fo this....then I have to access the only things I know myself...in order to place what I am seeing to understand why? But there is a part two to this....and that's where my own anger comes from?
As I explained to my wife...as she starts telling literally ....how I should be able to read this without her saying anything ( mind read ) to know what I am seeing and connect it to her or anyone else...without more information to go off of and she immediately used the word "compassion" but there is a problem with this? Compassion for what I might ask? No one is saying..and no one is talking? I don't really have any defintitive reason....for anything my wife does or says? I don't know if she has ADHD, Bi-Polar,Narcissist Disorder, Attachement Disorder, PTSD,or any or any number of many possibilities since....I'm not a trained expert in diagnostics and I could be totally wrong in anything that I personally might think I am seeing? All I know...is something is wrong? Correct? I am not about to start playing doctor either.....I do not have the ability to pin point anything that I can use or make sense of....if the person in front of me is refusing to give me anything that I can use to identify WHAT.....I need to be compassionate about but really ....ONLY IF....it is causing me harm? Otherwise....I am not that invested it myself and I don't need to really know and it is none of my bussiness?
But ....if it is causing me harm in some way.....I get to speak up and I need an answer and I expect one....and I don't expect BS as an excuse? And I do have a pet peeve with this myself which is on my end of the anger here which I explained to my wife as well and it is something I have a great deal of experience with...and when I smell BS....it does get my attention for the exact same reason?
It's called "Fucking With You".....just for fun and I had plenty of it....from the Master himself let me tell you and I am quite versed in this area so I am kind of an expert on this subject? I know it when I see it...and I was trained you might say...to spot it rather quickly? I'll give you just one example....of 1000's you might say...just to give you an idea?
This game is called "I'm going to Lie...and lets see how long it takes for you to figure it out? OR "I Wasn't Born Yesterday" either way you want to slice it? That's what I might call it now.....and even how I saw it then when my father would mercilessly...."Fuck With You" just for fun and you never knew when it was coming...so "game on" 24/7 and it was a game for him...just so you know?
Here's just one of 1000 ways to play? My father would be drinking something....he new I hated...and put in a glass and then ask if I wanted some of his and say it was something I really liked and he knew that one too?
"Sure ...thanks". As I take a big gulp and then spit in out on the floor. "ha ha ha ha ha!!!"
That's the name of the game right there. Like I said....:"lets see who's smarter....you or me?" Or "lets see how bad you want it...so I can say you can't have any?"
The latter is the version my wife and brother play. And the goal of this game...is to be one step ahead and "Not Be Born Yesterday"...and I got so good at "Not Being Born Yesterday".....I can play this game and come out ahead any day of the week? You better get up...bright an early...if you want to win this game with me because I was taught by the Zen Master himself...and I have lots and lots of practice? And the creepy thing about this game from my fathers end of it....it was played "overtly"...and if you won...he respected you for it so you were reward actually ...if you caught him? Good job!!!
So if you were to actually try to say.....this is what you're not doing with me? I have a very hard time believing you...since that reward was openly spoken and admitted to what he was doing? He knew exactly what he was doing...and I have a very very difficult time believing anyone who tries to tell me different which is to say straight up. I won't believe anyone who tries and tells me different because it unless they come staight out and explaint to me in detail with full accoutability...and say that are doing this for a different reason that I can understand and in some logical other explaination...or I will not stand for it for a second. Not 1/10 of a second because...I DO NOT PLAY THIS GAME EVER WITH ANYONE EVER!! NOT EVEN ONCE. That is how absolutely sure I am...that I am NOT playing this game because if there is one thing I despise more than anything....is this game. I know if....absolutely positively....when I see it. And I am also so aware and so clear of this game....that I would know if I was doing it too. Too the point....I have made it my life mission from that time moving forward in NOT doing this. That is why I know this game..and why I am so aware of it in other people and even myself? I may have my oblvious moments or things I don't realize....but this one ain't one of them. I am a veteran player without a doubt? Against my will and will no enjoyment on my end and that is a fact. No doubt in my mind?
This is that "Boy Named Sue"...boot camp training I went through...and when you are taught by the best....you learn how to play the game very well indeed if....I choose to play which I never choose to play....and if someone else thinks this is fun....they have another thing coming with me let me tell you? They are barking up the wrong tree and in that tree is something they are not going to like very much and they will learn the hard way and it won't happen again. When it comes to this game....I have 0 tolerance..in any space I exist in...is a NO BS Zone...when I smell or see the "Born Yesterday Game" being played? And I allow even 2% of grace her....it is 100% up to me and my good graces....maybe....if I am in a really good mood.....possibly?
That is my default. And I draw a hard line in big bold permanent parking lot paint that no one better cross and I make that perfectly clear with no questioning this...in clear and unambiguous language. Clearly!!!!! I might allow the 3 strike rule at first ...giving the benefit of the doubt....but after strike 3....game on boy....lets see how you like it...when you're playing with the protoge'of the Master himself?
I know this so well it's not even funny Jenne. This is where you come to a fist fight...and the other person pulls out a knife. Then you pull out a knife..and they pull out a hand gun...and then you pull out a hand gun...and they pull out a Howitzer and if you got nothing left...then they win? And since I have 0 tolerance for this form of 'play"....I just pull out a Nuke...and end the game before it happens and just Nuke the entire game into kingdom come which is no fun...for those who want to play? Game over. And I make that crystalline clear and allow the 3 stike rule for good measure and giving the benefit of the doubt? I don't even care of it's a sub conscious game or they have no idea? They will learn rather quickly as well...if that's the case? 0 tolerance ...means hard line in the sand and the consequences are clearly stated with that initial allowance and grace. period. That's how much I hate this...and that is how I feel about it? If someone choose to ignore my warning....then I will give them exactly what they are asking for?
I have very few things like this in any type of relationship requirement and I do not place many demands on people and am extremely allowing and tolerant. But not this one. This one is the one I reserve and allow all others in.....to make sure that if I do ask and demand just one thing....then I am not asking or demanding for too much? Purposefully and with intention...so when I call my marker in.....I am not being unreasonable?
So when my wife....started with that opening statement ( see what I have....well you don[t get any )....and then it's followed up with what I experienced and the evading and avoiding and the non answering and withholding? I cannot see this any other way. I am an expert in this...and this WILL NOT BE TOLERATED. PERIOD.
And in the same way I learned from the Master himself. This game if fun for them...and they always want to play?
Not in my sand box you don't. Not on your life and not for a second? You want to see the hammer come down hard and Nuclear weapon of words come out? Try me? That all? Homey don't play or dance for anyone including my wife? It's one of...if not the only actual demand that I require? In that respect. I'm not asking? I'm telling...to be sure?
Besides...she's leaving and it doesn't matter anyway....I have allowed the unallowable and hold my mud beyond the call of duty here....if she wants to play with the big boys....she better sharpen her pencil? Like I said....my wife is Childs Play....and I'm just the protege...not the Master himself that I learned this from?
The specific point I wanted to make here? My wife stated that we are "friends now"..and that changes the dynamic and rules immediately speaking and simplifies this immensely for me? My friends don't do this...and if they do....they are not my friends anymore? But since this "friend" now lives in my space with me...as if they are a room mate....well that's even easier. 3 strikes..and you out.
There you go....the dynamic by my wife's choice...now comes with entirely different expectation and the rules have dramatically changed over night. In fact...as I recal...a very good long term friend or mine....was with he and I in a car one time driving across town in another part of out city one time and this other friend decided to start playing this game with us. My good friend was driving at the time and we gave him the hint....that he better stop playing? And when he didn't....my friend pulled over on an Interstate freeway bridge...opened the door of the car and made him get out and we left him there on the side of the freeway to walk home 5 miles to have a chance to think about it? Saying....I'm not the only one who feels this way...and I am not alone in my methods either? If you want to be a friend....and you have to act like one and there are no guarantees if you don't behave? And I have ADHD I might add so there is no saying...."I didn't know?"
J
Not Born Yesterday
Submitted by jennalemone on
I am going to paraphrase, from my perspective what you are telling us: Bullying, teasing, taunting, lying for fun, making someone the butt of a joke, f.....king with you...........all these things have a drastic effect on a child. On a spouse who wants to build a life of trust together.
How does a person re-parent themselves and heal the damaged psyche of the child within? This is our job as adults to find the strength to be our own parent now that our parents are old or gone. We want to be taken care of and loved. Sometimes we are not anymore...but we can find some strength in those around us and we can search out those people in our lives. I find that I can find people to trust more often in church than in bars. The "kidders" are not to be trusted. They are not looking for connection but for their own amusement. Maybe they have people in their intimate lives but they are not offering intimacy if they are baiting and switching for fun.
I come from a family who did not do this. So I was not "on guard" when H operated like this and for years, felt the jabs of disrespect and "let downs" when he kidded and teased. He does not know how it hurts because it is something I don't do to him....it is mean.
Your father was mean to you when he did this. Your wife was insensitive to you but I expect that she is distancing herself. I am sorry. Some people are thoughtless and rude. The trick in our lives is to surround yourself with people you can trust and admire.
Transitions sometimes require that you "end" the old. You must let go of one trapeze bar you are holding before you can grab the new one coming your way.
Change in Dynamics Withholding
Submitted by kellyj on
Jenne,
Here's the type of abuse this is and wife has opened the door and I am walking right through it? Not born yesterday means.....I know every nuance of this game and how it is played and I will not toleratee it NOW....for one second longer. It went from 0 to 100% overnight...and now my wife has made her bed and she has to sleep in it? 0 tolerance means.....0 tolerance and this is the same rules or expectations I have from any of my friends? It I see any of this with any of my friends....they are no longer my friends. Black and White. Cut and Dried. Hung out to dry and wither in the Sun. Game over. It's my rules now...and I call the shots. This is gone.....as of yesterday or my wife will hit the road and be packing while she in the car unless she concedes and does something about this. No discussion. No compromise. No if and or butts. Gone...or she is gone. No allowances or conditions. No consolations or accomidations. Gone right now this instant and nothing less with be acceptable? Very clear and easy to understand? If this exist.....there is absolutely 0 excuses or concessions made. This is the requirement of any friends I havre...and my wife is no exception. Period. I think understanding the language is important. If someone is my way or the highway....you need to speak the lingo...or they won't hear you? And in her own self sabotaging way....she'll be the one on the highway.....not me? It's a self fulfilling prophecy...that I am glad to vacillate if that is what she really wants....I am happy to oblige.
J
Deprivation or Withholding
Withholding affection is one type of deprivation, and that occurs when your mate purposefully withholds physical contact (including sex). Divorces of the past were granted for “alienation of affection” and withholding physical comforts underlies the complaint. However, there are multiple ways abusive people deprive their victims.
Abusers may deprive you of information that you need. For example, they may deprive you of financial information such as impending bankruptcy or bills that need to be paid; hiding money from you or denying you the money you need for groceries (or any other need) falls into this category, too.
Another type of deprivation involves your time. Abusers tend to think their time is of the utmost importance, but your time is of no value. Abusers tend to think that you should be available to them at all times. Sometimes, they’ll tell you to plan on an event “for sure” when they know the event is tentative. You end up setting aside entire days or afternoons only to find out, at the last minute, the plans changed. Sometimes, your abuser won’t even tell you the plans changed and you’ll be dressed up for a business dinner when he comes home yelling, “Why isn’t dinner on the table? Why are the kids at a babysitter?”
Speaking of time, abusers will often deprive you of a good night’s sleep. Perhaps he returns home at 1 AM and wants to “talk” but if you deny him a conversation, he turns on the nasty juice and demands your attention. Sleep deprivation also happens when you work different shifts. Instead of letting you sleep and tending to the children during that time, the abuser may demand that you stay awake to do it.
Another type of deprivation is withholding compliments that you deserve and/or replacing them with compliments that trivialize your contributions. Your abuser may compliment things that are easy to do (such as taking out the trash) while ignoring your greater accomplishments (such as getting a raise). Appreciation for taking out the trash is one thing, but praising your skill at doing it is trivial. The abuser takes note of what you consider to be important, and then makes sure to never compliment you on successes in that area or to undermine your accomplishments by making them seem less important to him than what other people, he or his friends do.
Change in Dynamics Radical Shift (part 2 )
Submitted by kellyj on
Jenna,
Yesterday....something happened that I am trying to put together in conjunction with what I said in this last comment, and how that concluded at the end of the day with my wife and I and I am beginning to see the light more and more with my wife? Sometime a long time ago....I made a conscious decision that said that to put myself and my needs aside for my wife at times to consider that she never had anyone in here life before....to do what I have done exactly or acted in the way I have acted with her ....out of Love and caring which in some ways she never had or simply being there and not abandoning her?
I am getting the feeling that my wife has only been somewhat honest about the times in her past relationships and how they ended and how the other person behaved or acted on their parts when that happened in that....there is more than she has told me about what was said in the "complaint dept"....from the other person or you might say...their side of the story?
You said it here.."How does a person re-parent themselves and heal the damaged psyche of the child within? This is our job as adults to find the strength to be our own parent now that our parents are old or gone."
Well, I can tell you the parent child dynamic....will not work and there are many reasons for this that I don't think I need to go over here. But I can answer one part of that question on my own account....by including one person in my life that made the difference for me? Ironically, this goes back to a moment in time that I believe I mentioned somewhere on this forum when my swimming coach and I were sitting together one time before a High School swimming competition.....when I had actually got a job for one year....being the High School Swim Coach for one of his opposing schools and I was now....his somewhat equal or contemporary in roles at least, and no longer on "his team" and an underling under his authority any more?
And I will never forget his answer...when I confided in him that I didn't know how to gain the respect of my swimmers as he had done such a stellar job with me and all the swimmers under his charge as the Head Coach for my team from time I was 6 years old...until I was 18 when I left the team officially to go away to college? As I sat there trying to get some specific answers on some pointers in other ways....it came down to the last big question...."How do you get the respect from your swimmers the way you do?"
And in his reply to me "he burst out laughing"......and he never gave me a definitive answer or even responded to that one and just looked at me and smiled?
I thought about this last night after my wife....for the first time just spontaneously....."opened up"....after she shut the conversation down ( as she does every time )...any time the conversation goes in a direction that has to do with anything related to her and her own behavior? And I did oblige her as I usually do....but I continued to talk with her anyway by lowering my voice down so low I was almost whispering and speaking in soft tones that is normally outside of the way I normally speak? And suddenly....out of no where....my wife made some startling admissions about what she had been thinking and doing and even told me she had looked up and read about "aviodant attachment" styles and told me she really thinks she is more "fearful avoidant" rather than "dismissive avoidant" as she read over the literature? She even told me ( nothing new )...that these things can change and shift back and forth some ....which was her telling me I think ( without knowing she was ) that she had changed as well? I thought about this and rather than disagreeing with her in that she was definitely dismissive...and I ranted and railed here about how much I hated being dismissed all the time.....I realized that she was absolutely right....she had changed from being dismissive...and was no longer doing that any more in the same way she had done before? The fact that she was even telling me these things...was an act of God in itself so I was not questioning or going to debate of give my opinion to someone was actually being open and was actually telling me what was really "real" in reality and what I actually have been seeing myself? That in what she was saying.....it was lining up with reality and these were true admissions in an open honest way?
And then shortly after that...after another failed attempt on my behalf.....I went back at in again in the way I know best....and I approached her like my coach had always done with us....from a place being not a parent....but as someone speaking with that kind of authority? The trickle down effect from being on a team like this means....everyone on the team becomes each others coach or role model with each other and everyone tended to mimic him and speaks to each other in the same way?
The friend who I was with that one time in the car who pulled the car over and kicked our other friend out of the car and left him on the freeway to walk 5 miles home by himself.....was one of my closest friends directly from swimming together....who had quite an amazing career as a swimmer himself and had set every record that could ever have been set in his particular discipline being the 100 yards freestyle. There is a particular position or place of honor that this puts you into .....since of all the 4 competitive strokes in competition swimming....freestyle or ( crawl )...is the fastest of all the 4 strokes. And to be the fastest of the fastest.....there is no event faster than the 50 and the 100.....in terms of a sprint or race of that kind? Which means...to be the fastest sprinter in freestyle means....you are the fastest person in the pool at any given point in time if there was such a thing as a race....to see who gets to the other side first no matter what other stroke you could pick or choose since.....you would be that person simply based on these facts?
And as I thought about this more...and I remembered all my closest friends, most who came from my years with them in the same way during those years together in swimming on that level.....we talked to each other in the same way...our coached talked to us by default? Were actually were not parenting each other in a superior way....we were actually coaching each other....in and out of the pool even when we were together in the same we way learned from my swim coach who in my mind....was one of the best examples of a "coach" of any kind...that you could ever find anywhere?
A good coach in my mind....is a combination of things: sometimes an equal...and sometimes and authority. Sometimes a friend...and sometimes a "hard ass" who puts you right into the ground and rubs your nose in the "pee".( like a puppy who just pee'd on the floor lol ) And sometimes they are a psychologist and a good story teller or teacher...with amazing insights and amazing stories of bravery and heroism to motivate you and inspire you...to push yourself past your own limitations. And sometimes they are just there for you when you failed....who tells you to "shake it off...tomorrows another day"...with a pat on the butt...and a kind word to go along with it and sending you on your way to deal with your loss?
And sometimes....when you act out of are out of line.....they come down on you hard or even humiliate you in front of the team..and make an example of you in front of everyone either in disdain...to ridicule and even make fun of or make the butt of the joke.....but for a specific reason..and that reason is....."You deserved it"....since you actually "did screw up or were screwing off or were simply doing something you shouldn't be doing"....which is simply not to be tolerated for a second. Period. "0 tolerance means.....0 tolerance?"
It occurred to me in my last comment.....that those words just flowed off the tip of my tough naturally? And I also realized "where I learned those words?"
I learned them from my coach....the same place my friend learned them and all of my friends who wer from that "world"....who learned them from the same source together...and that source was our coach?
And I realized last night when I thought about that time with my coach laughing at me and not giving me an answer? I already had the answer....because I was already that person and just didn't know it yet? I learned it from him...and he saw it in me....and I didn't need to learn anything more....than just apply it in the same way I ended up doing? In that moment....teacher became contemporary and I really was his protege' at that point in time going back nearly 40 years ago now.....and I have been applying it ever since in the same way naturally?
And you know.....some people just don;'t like someone who speaks with this kind of authority and confidence especially when they are of the mind that says "I don't like sports"....like my wife? She will watch a local team go on to win a championship ( a fair weather spectator ) but other than that..."sports" or "competition" in that arena....really holds no interest for her and she does not have a lot of experience with that at all...to really understand the entire mentality to begin with?
When you are raised by a "dirt bag"....with "dirt bag drunk husbands"......who have no integrity or character what so ever.....when you see hostility and anger....it means a specific thing and it is always self serving to the owner of "said emotions" with no purpose or direction or anything "good" what so ever?
Last night....my wife even shared another story ( rare for her to do ) that had to do with her mother...which she always makes excuses for...and always started out by saying "everyone has their challenges..and we all have our adversities"...which is that vague and non specific way...she talks about people in general most of the time? This is a good quality to have...if the goal is not to offend anyone and is an asset in the work she does as a Social Worker....and I see that as not a bad thing in that context?" This is not my strong suit what so ever...and I have never really learned those skills along the way personally?
In the this other example of her mother when I asked her "what was your mother like when she would get angry"....and she said "I remember one time ( just to show your ) how my mother would rage and throw things...and one time she took a knife and threw it into the ground in front of me when she was angry with me ".....in this one example she gave?
And I thought about that and thought about the other stand out time when her mother got her ex-husband gun out and accidentally shot the lady in the apartment below her in a fight she was having with her ex husband at the time? And the first thought I had about this as a personally assessment is....."that is dirt bag behavior"....as my way of expressing this myself? It's the first thought that crosses my mind...and how I would express it naturally?
Whether that is a judgment or not...is not really relevant...what is relevant as I am sitting here smiling at this going first and foremost? What the Hell is a "dirt bag"...anyway?? LOL A bag with dirt in it? LOL This makes me laugh since this is so much the very thing I am talking about?
If you have ever watched these two television shows.....CSI Miami.....and NCIS.....in making a comparison here? In the one...you've got who I call the "Steve-o"...rip off...of "Steve Magarret" in the original TV series "Hawaii Five O." You know...."Book em Danno"...which was actually played by Jack Lord the actor? In CSI Miami...which I feel is just a complete rip off of the original "Hawaii Five O" series with the actor or head of the series being played by David Caruso..who even sounds like Jack Lord and emulates him in every way remarkably well right down to his voice? I keep waiting for the familiar "Book em Danno" ...to come out of his mouth but to my disappointment...never comes. LOL
But in that series....you have all these over the top..completely unrealistic characters and in this completely unbelievable over dramatic plots...over dramatic ( poorly written scripts mellow dramatic dialogs between the characters ) and a completely unrealistic "Science Fiction"...looking laboratory with is kind of combination of Star Trek bridge on the Enterprise...and some futuristic Future World environment...while supposedly being set in Miami Florida? Like somehow in Miami Florida...such things actually exist? You might ask? And then go....."yeah right" ..Miami Florida may be a lot of things...but those aren't part of it!!! LOL Just ask Jeb Bush....he will tell you!! LOL
On the other hand...you have Mark Harmon...playing Mark Harmon...in the show NCIS. Mark Harmon...is not an actor by default. Mark Harmon was and still is...and athlete and a pretty famous one at that? He had a very long and illustrious career stemming back to his own father Heisman Trophy–winning football player and broadcaster Tom Harmon and his own Football college career as Quarterback for the UCLA Bruins. Harmon graduated cum laude from UCLA in 1974 with a B.A. in Communications. His accolades include
NJCAA All-American (1971)
NFF National Scholar-Athlete Award (1973)
Second-team Academic All-America (1973)
Pierce College Athletic Hall of Fame (2010)
He also ended up marrying Pam Dauber from "Mork and Mindy" fame with Robin Williams if anyone recalls who I use to have a crush on myself and would always say...."lets watch the "Mindy" show."...conveniently omitting Mork from the title. LOL Just a personal side note of jealously there all in good fun. LOL
In 1987, Harmon filed for custody of his nephew Sam on the grounds that his sister, Kristin Nelson, was incapable of good parenting. Sam's psychiatrist testified that the thirteen-year-old boy depicted his mother as a dragon and complained about her mood swings and how she prevented him from being with his siblings. Harmon later dropped the custody bid.[31][32]
In 1988, Harmon was part owner of a minor league baseball team in San Bernardino, California, the San Bernardino Spirit, which spawned Ken Griffey, Jr. Harmon used the team and their home field, Fiscalini Field, for the opening and closing scenes of a baseball movie he was starring in, Stealing Home.[33]
In 1996, Harmon saved a teenage boy involved in a car accident outside his Brentwood home. Harmon used a sledgehammer from his garage to break the window of his burning car, then pulled the boy from the flames.
When I read about this last even when Harmon saved the boy in the burning car....it reminds me of another Harman ( spelled differently ) who did the same thing in his own way. Recalling my swim coach again...who was jogging once and heard the distress of someone calling for help to find a family member choking on something caught in their throat who quickly performed the Heimlich maneuver on them and save that persons life?
In an article written recently in the local news media .....Rod Harmon was honored and inducted into the "National High School Hall of Fame" with some endorsements and some of his personal history to go along with it? This was all in relationship to his coaching during High School but it really doesn't get into the depth about his years of coaching the private team I also belonged to ( as well as swimming for him in High School as well on that team too...both at the same time )
What I really wanted to say here in conjunction to these two Harmon / Harman (s).....collectively...is a quality of character that is hard to define exactly? It is a combination of many things all working together...to make up this quality that can only amount to integrity? When I see what I see in both cases individually....what I see is "the real deal"...not some fake or facsimile. They don't play a character role in that respect.....they are the "character" or character in itself? When they use to tell us to "Be the Ball"...in Baseball growing up...that was a difficult concept to grasp at that age but I got the idea in context and held on to that notion until this day but am now applying outside of the arena of sports in describing this same thing which is what these two men seem to share in common other than their last named spelled differently?
I only wish....I had half of this ability myself......but then again....I think I do have at least bare minimum.....1/2 this ability...which I realized how I got it...and who it was who gave it to me and that was what brought me back to that moment when Rod was sitting their laughing at me when I asked him that kind of impossible questions but without realizing my own ability in this area that he himself had passed onto me?
I may be a lot of things and a lot of negative things on top of it.....but the one positive thing that I am and part of who I am....is a "coach"...and I just do it naturally...naturally speaking? It didn't just come naturally to me either...it was something I had to work hard at....to learn?
But one thing I did learn from my coach Rod Harmon....was how to coach and motivate my teams mates ( the same as they did with me ) in the same way you learn to self parent yourself....in lue of any good example in that area myself? I am not a great self parent....what I am is a great self coach...with the ability to coach others...when needed and have Rod Harmon to thank for that?
And really when it comes down to it....that is all pretty accurate? Everyone has naturally innate abilities and some you learn along the way? It I hadn't learned what I learned and absorbed from just being in a close relationship with my own coach Rod Harman....I wouldn't be the man I am today and my life would have been far worse than I could ever imagine? He wasn't just my coach....he my life line role model and I have him to Thank for that.....above and beyond anyone else for that including my own parents if I am really being honest?
So regardless of what any advise I might get from any book or any professional source on how I should try and connect with my wife? If I am being who I am...and this is who I am...then in my mind...that's the best way to do it.....saying for me and no one else? Either you have what it takes and or you don't. And if you don't...you shouldn't try and fake it or pretend...or it just won't work?
But that is not saying....that you can't get it either or that is not possible .....but in order to get it....you need a coach not a parent or any other source in this particular kind of quality and combination of of qualities to create that ability? And I guess if I had to say anything else her as far as how you get that.....you get that from realizing your own potential..and you know how far you can push yourself and what actually possible? Once you have that for a base line to work from....the rest is just doing it...and practicing it....over and over. The same as I learned from Rod Harman...in exactly the same way?
http://www.oregonlive.com/beaverton/index.ssf/2012/05/long-time_beaverto...
J
The Things You Remember that Leave a Mark
Submitted by kellyj on
I just read over the article I included at the end of my last comment. In it....there was one passage that was very personal to me.
"Among them is Carolyn Wood, who was 14 when she won her gold medal in freestyle in the summer of 1960 (Tokyo Olympics ), a few months after she joined the freshman team at Beaverton High School under Harman. Most of her Olympic training was through the Multnomah Club, she said."
This is just one of those flash moments in time that you will never forget. As I hit the wall ..and raised my head to look around me and see where I had finished....I saw no one on either side of me and knew I had finished first and quite a bit ahead of anyone else in my heat? This was in my High School District meet as a Jr. before advancing to the finals and then on to state competition......and I knew that I had done something beyond what I had ever done...but had not seen the time come up of on the reader board yet?
And in amongst all the crowd noise and all the commotion and with other swimmers finishing around me....I heard one voice yell out over the noise of the crowd and heard "59!!".....ring through loud and clear.
59 in terms of time...meant seconds which meant going under a minute for the first time in my life for 100yd backstroke....which for me was like breaking the sound barrier. That was the magic line to go under a minute and that voice that came through loud and clear belonged to Carolyn Wood. She was the assistant coach at the time under Rod Harmans direction and to hear that voice of excitement and jubilation come through all the other voices that were still screaming and yelling in just a mass of "noise" coming at me in that moment....will be a voice I will never forget the sound of...and it has stayed in my permanent memory like it was yesterday when I heard it?
I knew the voice. And I knew who owned it. And I recognized the excitement and ecstasy and joy of accomplishment in the sound I heard, which I never will forget?
Just relating a memory and how it got to be that way...and to thank Carolyn Wood for doing what she did in that instant of time...that really left it's mark on me personally.
J
One Final Note on Rod Harmon's Gift
Submitted by kellyj on
I'm sitting here laughing ( still to this day )...remembering something Mr Rod loved to do...and he would always catch you and pull this one on you every time.
"Mr Harmon.....can I swim Butterfly instead of Freestyle this weekend at our upcoming meet?"
"Not very well"....was his reply..and he always busted up laughing...at himself and the funny he made. LOL
That's just who he was...and he couldn't help it and everyone laughed along with him including the person who asked.....and I am still laughing to this day:)
J
<<< And just to address what
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
<<< And just to address what OW was saying that I am afraid of my wife leaving? Sh<<<
did I comment on that? I don't remember doing so. If I did, ok, but where did I make that comment?
Oops OW
Submitted by kellyj on
That wasn't you OW. I had that thought in my head from what Jenna had mentioned and was attributing to you in the comments you made and combined it together? Oops. Sorry about that...that was a mistake or error on my part...but thanks for alerting me to it....just the same:)
J
I'm guessing that your wife
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
I'm guessing that your wife didn't ask him to clarify, and only once you asked "which spelling" did she realize that she didn't know.
Either way, no harm in putting both ways on the email. One won't make it and the other one will. Or send each email individually....one with doctor and one with dr in the email address. I bet it's dr.
She probably felt dumb when you asked for the clarification because she hadn't questioned it at the time.