Hello - I am new to this forum and very grateful that it exists ! Brief as possible, my story: I am 59 married to a 61 year old man for about 3 years together 7 years. About a year after I inherited some money, my husband just stopped working. He works freelance from home, and he just stopped. Since then we have gone through much of my inherited money (I bought us a house and furnished it) because he has NO income. On top of this I discovered that he had lied to me about his finances before we married,as I asked for full financial disclosure. He lied, saying all was okay, but he has not paid his business tax in 5 years, amounting to $20,000 owed and I found out about it by chance when a cheque bounced due to the government having taken money from his bank account. He never would have told me, he admits this.
He lies chronically and tells me that lying is "part of every marriage and you are too uptight about it".
At first I tried to help him change, got him to a psychiatrist a year ago, who diagnosed ADHD right away, got him on Concerta for ADHD, Wellbutrin for depression, and to a cognitive behavioural therapy group, which he attended for 16 weeks. I got all the Hallowell and Rady books on ADHD, read everything, supported him, but after the group was over, he dumped almost everything he had learned and went back to being the way he is, despite weekly couple counselling. My husband uses the diagnosis as an excuse for all his lousy behaviours and just last night told me "You re treating me like a bad person, instead of a person needing understanding" - this is what he came up with after reading a couple of articles from this site. BUT HE BEHAVES LIKE A BAD PERSON - this is the dilemma I see in many of the posts here. How on earth is the non-ADHD spouse supposed to cope when the ADHD person JUSTIFIES all the rotten stuff they do "because I have ADHD?" I have done everything I can think of, and am giving up, separating from him. I feel guilty about it, because it means he will be very poor, likely end up on welfare, but if I don't leave him, he will break me. I don't work anymore (I inherited enough not to have to work anymore) but if this goes on, I will have to seek work again, and my health won't permit that. It is all so sad, and so unnecessary, but at 61 years old, I doubt he will change. I will miss many of his qualities, but my own self-esteem is hitting the floor, and I am becoming isolated because I do not want to talk about this to my friends - if they knew he is such a liar they would be shocked.
So here is my question for any of you who may care to respond: How can the ADHD person justify lying, and expect CONTINUAL forgiveness for lying ? How do they not see themseThankslves as subject to the same moral code as the rest of us ?
I think they learned to use
Submitted by RitaMargarita on
I think they learned to use lying as a child, as we all do, but continue it through adulthood as a coping mechanism. They use it to hide shame, avoid conflict... I don't think it's purposely malicious with the intent to deceive.
I also don't think they process the consequences quite the same way as the rest of us. Plus, we tend to enable the lying, just by keeping them around, so, we share a bit of the problem.
And I doubt your H will end up on welfare. His life will revert to what it was when you met him, and I think you'll be surprised to see him start to work again, and be able to manage all the things you've been doing for him.
I learned from my recent ex this weekend that part of the reason he coasted, was that he knew I was going to do everything. Ouch. He didn't intend to take advantage, but, when you have ADD, and everyday tasks are a challenge, it becomes easier to NOT try, if someone else is doing all the work. We all need to own this part of the equation...
Agree
Submitted by Hysterical37 (not verified) on
I couldn't agree more with this comment:
''I learned from my recent ex this weekend that part of the reason he coasted, was that he knew I was going to do everything. Ouch. He didn't intend to take advantage, but, when you have ADD, and everyday tasks are a challenge, it becomes easier to NOT try, if someone else is doing all the work. We all need to own this part of the equation''.
So what is the choice then? I have tried not doing things and letting things get to chaos, then I had to intervene because of the detrimental impact it would have had on me, so I have got to the point where I just kick ass and say i'm not putting up with it, then he goes into victim mode, like i'm mistreating him. If he lived on his own it would do him the world of good because then he would have to sort stuff. I just can help thinking it's really selfish to expect someone to pick up the pieces all of the time.
reply to RitaMargarita
Submitted by macdonald on
Thanks for your reply - I hear you about the lying, that we tend to enable the lying, and also that is is "easier to NOT try, if someone else is doing all the work". However, "we all need to own tis part of the equation" - sounds to me like blaming the victim. In any intimate relationship, it takes time to realize when one partner is being taken advantage of. As the so-called "enabler" I didn't see what he was doing right away, I tried to understand; so I investigated ADHD, was patient and loving (as wives and husbands are supposed to be), and I told him I would not tolerate the deceptiveness, and I allowed for the time it takes to make real change. So no, I don't own "my" part of the equation, as I don't control his lying, he KNOWS it is wrong, and he continues - I own having been loyal, patient, understanding and above all, RESOURCEFUL - I helped him a lot emotionally and by loving him. So I own being a loyal and strong person, and I own leaving - that's what I own. I've been in a great deal of counselling, and one gem I will never forget is this "You cannot know what another person is determined to hide from you, you will be fooled." Fool me once, but not 2x. If he starts to work again, I will go after him legally for all he owes, I have an excellent marriage contract that will hold in court - I will not be taken advantage of any further, and I own that too.
I hope that your home is in your name...
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
Since you used inheritance to buy your home, I hope you didn't "mix money" and kept the home in your name alone. Otherwise, is he going to claim half ownership?
When you say that you're separating, does that mean that he is willing to move out? If he has no money, will he refuse to move?
When I inherited money, I never told my H how much I got (he still doesn't know). I kept the money separate (thank goodness) because he filed for divorce (twice) and if the money hadn't been kept separate (clean), then he would have had expected to get half. (we didn't divorce, and he still does not have access to the money, nor does he know how much there is). I never told my H because I was concerned that he would stop working over-time. Before you think I'm greedy, H's job was easy and low-stress, and he didn't mind the over-time because he still had a LOT of "down time" with his job (a ton of down-time) so since he was useless at home (refused to do any chores) having him work overtime seemed like a fair alternative.
How can the ADHD person justify lying,
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
In some cases, I think the lying is their way of being in denial, and feeling better about themselves.
In other cases, I know that many of my H's "lies" are simply the case of his "jumbled ADHD brain" getting things confused. In many cases, he doesn't mean to "not tell the truth," but he doesn't really remember the truth, so he makes declarative statements in a "this is the truth" way, but the statements aren't true...which I can prove in many, many cases.
My H thinks he is an honest person, and he says so many, many times. But, he lied about his age when I met him, and he's lied about other things to "make him look good."
today, my H was telling a story about when he was seriously ill one time and his organs started shutting down while hospitalized. He said that the doctors told him that they didn't expect him to recover because his organs were shutting down.. I assumed that this must have happened before I knew him, so I asked him when that happened. He told me when it was, and it was after we had been married for 4 years.
THAT IS NOT WHAT HAPPENED. Yes, he had a very high fever, and the doctor was very concerned, and yes he was hospitalized. I was included in all doctor visits, and at no time was his life or organs in any danger. They were being extra cautious by hospitalizing him.
I couldn't believe how this story had changed so much into becoming a near-death experience! He truly believed everything he was saying
Lying "IS" Lying Overwhelmed Wife
Submitted by kellyj on
I think you've made an important distinction OW, and one I will stand with you on. There is no justification or excuse for lying in the sense you are saying....and before I go on with saying any more...I really do think your husband has a problem that falls well outside of just having ADHD alone and will tell you straight up from other things I've heard you say in the past.......I really think you are between a rock and a hard place with your H and you are in a situation with only one of two options......stay, with very little hope of anything ever changing with him (slim to none)....or leave to protect your own sanity and personal well being. The reason I know this is that I have been where you are before and am very familiar with living with, working for and even being raised by at least one parent with a character disorder at different times in my past
Even though I take exception to the comment "the ADHD" person" as being inaccurate...... If you believe that I'm trying to work some kind of rationalization, defense or excuse for myself into this right now for you......you will be missing what I am trying to say to you.....to the point?
There is ADHD, and there are Character(or personality) Disorders that you yourself have speculated and made clear that this is what you also believe....and there is the average person in an overall sense that has neither one of these issues. I think it's fair to say that in all three cases....each one "lies" for different reason.....and in some cases, there are "justifiable lies."
As an example.....you Lie to your children to keep them safe from harm at times for their own well being. You lie to your co-worker who's dress is unflattering to them so as not to hurt their feelings when asked. These are with lies with good intention and everyone under these circumstance has done this at some point in their lifetime but yet.....most would not consider you a liar if you do this, and to the point....that if you didn't, you would be possibly negligent in the case with a child and be socially inept and boorish by only "saying what you really think" to another person who's obviously wanting validation for a new piece of clothing that they just purchased. These are "justifiable" lies that everyone does.
I know that many of my H's "lies" are simply the case of his "jumbled ADHD brain" getting things confused. Processing out loud and not following through with things that you say or promises made surrounding time (being late), doing things you said you were going to do like an errand and getting distracted by something else and then forgetting to do the errand itself as another example are this kind of ADHD lie. You made a very good distinction here.
But, he lied about his age when I met him, and he's lied about other things to "make him look good." I don't lie like this at all to anyone. I know how old I am and I'm don't have any issue with being my age. I clearly know the difference to the point I have nothing to hide. This kind of lying I recognize too very well and as soon as read thought "character disorder". Unfortunately, I have learned this too from my own experience and one that is not easy to forget. Simply put.....this a kind of pathological lying combined with the others that you mentioned.........
my H was telling a story about when he was seriously ill one time and his organs started shutting down while hospitalized. He said that the doctors told him that they didn't expect him to recover because his organs were shutting down.. I assumed that this must have happened before I knew him, so I asked him when that happened. He told me when it was, and it was after we had been married for 4 years.
This is a delusional world he lives in inside his head. These lies come from a distortion of reality where facts are interchangeable with fiction and vise versus to fit into any situation as needed....I'm not an expert here (only from experience along with some professional explanations as it has been described to me) but I think it's fair to say these are more "delusions" than lies.... but who cares in this case for you? If you can't trust a person who lives inside their head (and the interchangeable stories that go along with it) it doesn't really matter does it? Living with a person like this can be tantamount to abuse at times because they can make you start losing touch with your own frame of reality just being with them......in other words, it can literally feel like you are going crazy yourself which in a real sense at times....you are becoming more like them and losing touch with yourself. I cannot emphasis enough here that I too know the difference between reality and fiction and the comment I just made is coming from my own personal experience....not something I read out of a book. Does he see that he is lying....no. That's the difference between being in denial with having ADHD and this.
Denial with ADHD (only using myself here in my own words)...is more to do with not having any understanding of ADHD and trying to explain your own behaviors to yourself or even other people. Without any understanding or knowledge to go on, you are left somewhat "improvising" if that makes sense" And yes....by means of improvising or trying to come up with a reasonable or rational explanation for it.....there are many times you are simply going to be wrong. I'm still working hard to make sure that I understand the "facts" well enough to match my own behaviors to them. As soon as I discovered the facts as they are it was pretty easy to see where I was wrong almost immediately. At the same time.....I have a clear sense of reality, right and wrong and now the difference of not knowing something and being incorrect after the fact.....and completely fabricating a fictional story as used as an excuse or other wise. I've done this too at times in my youth.....but, I knew the difference then even in the moment and what I'm saying is..... a person who suffers from delusions versus denial does not know this difference. And if confronted.....will turn and twist and throw it back in your face and reject anything contrary to the story they believe is real inside their heads.....because the world that they live in inside their heads (and the words, stories and thoughts that come out of their mouths) is contrary as you and I see it to reality. That is...what is real and factual from this entire false reality.
This is a different kind of lie than the other two examples that I already made for you.
Bottom line....a person like this cannot be trusted because in reality, it's the distortions that can't be trusted and that's the reality they are working from inside their head. If this really is a pathological state of being and the case with your husband ( he's like this all the time.....or even most of it?) I'd use the terms....alternative universe or bordering insanity in this case myself. There is a reason for calling at least one classification in the pathology "Borderline" and I think this might be a fair description (in my own words) for the reason's for it?
I think everyone experiences distortions of reality at times especially under stress....but most of us don't live there chronically (or pathologically) all the time, everyday for most of their life if you understand what I'm saying?
THAT IS NOT WHAT HAPPENED. Yes, he had a very high fever, and the doctor was very concerned, and yes he was hospitalized. I was included in all doctor visits, and at no time was his life or organs in any danger. They were being extra cautious by hospitalizing him.
You know this as fact because it is what really happened. The same as I know what is real and what is true and when I'm lying for any reason good or bad.....in the moment. I already explained denial of ADHD so I don't need to belabor that with you.....I'm not in denial for over a decade starting from the time I was first diagnosed. At that time....I was almost relieved just to have answer to so many troubling things that I didn't understand and I welcomed the news in that sense. It fit what I new already that I simply didn't have an answer for yet....not....having to completely re-write a completely new reality (the one in my head) that didn't fit into what I already believed.
In many cases, he doesn't mean to "not tell the truth," but he doesn't really remember the truth, so he makes declarative statements in a "this is the truth" way, but the statements aren't true...which I can prove in many, many cases.
OMG....these are so weird aren't they. You're going HUH? If this is how I am interpreting (and have heard you make comment before) I do know what these are and yes....it's like someone talking to themselves and with you at the same time completely out of context.....with anything??? If you take what I said and apply it to this...it will help you get a clearer picture. These....as I've called them....many times are not just statements. They are more verbal affirmations or declarations of their reality (the one in their head)....that's why you're going HUH? Who are you talking too? If I'm reading this correctly. You got it.....who are they talking to is correct......their imaginary friend? Unfortunately.....YOU in this case are the imaginary friend except.....you are not imaginary and live in reality. OMG....I have so many stories but I will spare you.
This is different than verbal processing (out loud) current data, ideas, thoughts or even emotions in the moment (or even slightly delayed which is variable at times) that come with ADHD. Your H as it sounds....has ADHD too, but that is completely different than these declarations or an alternative reality as I was just trying to illustrate to you.
So....why did I just go through all of this with you? It is not really for support but to give you an earnest opinion and for your own personal well being based my own experience in your case specifically. I've seen your other posts (and your speculations in them) and read the comments you've made and I see you doing the same thing I had to do in my past when I was around someone like your husband....and the struggle in trying to understand and trying to differentiate any of what you are seeing and experiencing to what you know is real. Including seeing you make these distinctions between the different type of lying that you are experiencing but still struggling to make any sense of it (if I am correct)
I'm saying, you are right on the money. You are absolutely correct in everything aside from "the ADHD" person in that....you are beginning to see the things that are not ADHD and not everyone with ADHD has this problem that your H apparently has. I went through this for you so you to see if what I said resonated with your own experience ....and to further make or illuminate these distinctions that you have already alluded to in this post and other you have made. From what I read, I see this pretty clearly too. If what I'm saying sounds correct from your experience with these things...... In my honest opinion.....you need to leave and get out to protect your sanity.....not because of just ADHD but for what I just described and what I think is causing you the majority of your grief. I'm also saying...that ADHD alone ( as reported by myself and so many others including the founders of this sight who have or are with partners with ADHD) is not responsible for the things you are describing. You can't separate these out in your H to know this as fact.....but I wouldn't be telling you this if I thought it was just ADHD. I know that it can be modified and changed as it has been my experience. But my own experience with the things I'm talking about have a prognosis that is grim with little hope for change no matter what you do.....that's why I said the part of just one or two choices in this case.......also, because I have had to make that same decision myself. From my experience.....you have only one option unless you want to continue like you are with little hope for change if what I'm saying is true. It really is abusive in my humble opinion.
J
You should go...
Submitted by HeyMare1960 on
...don't feel you need validation from anyone. You dont. I just send you my support. I think you have tried everything you can, given him every chance. Now save yourself.
Lies and ADHD
Submitted by wittend on
All I can say is WOW!!! I found this column just today because I to am at a complete loss. Everything, and I do mean everything I have read today describes my husband to a T. The lies, porn addiction, blaming everything he chooses, ( yes it is a choice), to do on me. He wants counseling AGAIN, last time he went to the first few sessions alone, to "fix" himself. But the second I sat down in the chair, the counselor told me, " you do know that everything wrong in your marriage is your fault and that your husband is incapable of change right"? Yes I walked out. Why the heck would anyone want to continue with that kind of "help"? I have been reading all the comments here, looking for a resolution, some way to help my husband and I can't find anything. I too have done everything all of you have done and it sounds like there is either chaos and fighting, unhappiness, or a divorce. Ouch!! On a brighter note, thank you to all who have shared, I feel kind of vindicated that not everything is my fault. I hope all who shared here can find some happiness I know I am going to somehow.
More than one bad therapist
Submitted by dedelight4 on
" But the second I sat down in the chair, the counselor told me, " you do know that everything wrong in your marriage is your fault and that your husband is incapable of change right"? Yes I walked out.
WOW.....I'm sure glad you walked out. No one needs that kind of guilt heaped upon them. That person should NOT be trying to help people and spouses with ADHD.
So sorry,
Help Please
Submitted by TGC on
I have just found this Blog and I am a wife of ADHD adult. He too lies and I have had enough. He also is not working as has an injury which should be operated on soon, but his continual line of injuries have met he has not worked much either. I do not have ADHD so have been believing that all his problems are related to his ADHD. In the past (not sure if that is true even) he was on porn sites at night, drank, took drugs (pain killers) He seems to be well then he goes distant and then I know there is a lie coming. Is lying truly not part of ADHD. He is lying about important stuff. We are apart and I am at a cross roads of whether to stay or call it quits. Trust is an important part of marriage and as these lies keep coming up, I am tired of the rollercoaster