After 21 years of marriage my husband finally admitted that he is never going to have an intimate and caring relationship with me. He's never even going to try. He finally admitted that his priorities are going to be pursuing wealth, high adrenaline hobbies and sports competitions. And of course he wants to maintain a sexual relationship. This was not a heated argument with yelling and insults. It was a very calm discussion that he had put much thought into.
This was not actually news to me because I've been living this reality for more than two decades. But it was very strange to hear him finally admit it. Now I have to finally give up hope.
I have spent 21 years trying to have a deep and meaningful relationship with one of the most shallow people on the planet.
My husband has not admitted
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
My husband has not admitted it but this weekend, I gave up hope. Funny, I didn't think I still had hope, but apparently, I did. Because now I don't have it, and I realize the difference. Oh, well. Time to move on.
Does your H have NPD? sounds like it.
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
Do you suspect that your H has Narcissistic Personality Disorder? It sounds like it. Shallow, self-serving....
His words must have hurt, even though it's an acknowledgement of what you've known deep down.
I can't imagine how it must have felt to have him say that he won't have a caring relationship with you, but still wants sex. Are you supposed to be his blow-up doll? Essentially, that's what he's saying. .
I think lack of empathy is a
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
I think lack of empathy is a common trait in people with adhd. This is by far the most damaging trait in my husband. When you don't have the ability to share someone else's feelings it is impossible to have a deep, meaningful relationship. It is impossible to be anything but shallow.
I agree. It appears very narcissistic. But I think it goes back to lack of empathy associated with adhd.
I wonder if there is a way to develop empathy or learn it?
Empathy and ADHD
Submitted by kellyj on
Hi Hopeful Heart,
You said I agree. It appears very narcissistic. But I think it goes back to lack of empathy associated with adhd. I have spent a lot of time struggling, researching and going to therapy in my own efforts to figure this out myself and I would have to agree when you said that it "appears to be very narcissistic" but to emphasize that appearing is not the same as "having" and that is the most important part of how you worded it and why I can agree with you....up to a point that is.
You also said...When you don't have the ability to share someone else's feelings it is impossible to have a deep, meaningful relationship. It is impossible to be anything but shallow. I would also agree with this statement only to say that the inability or incapacity to do this is the key part of making this kind of distinction. Is it there or not and how do you know.....that really is the question?
For me without question....the ability and capacity is there and always has been but...the capacity part is where I have fallen short in my past compared to how I am now. Past being distant past more when I was still a teenager and early adult at a time it might be considered more normal for people not to be very compassionate or empathetic however...I think my capacity was less than some in that regard and there is a lot of research and information that does indicate that there may be a reason for it that has to do with ADHD. Here's a link to a good article on this subject specifically about boys with ADHD.
http://addtreatmentcenters.com/framefiles/articles/Empathy%20and%20Emoti...
Without pasting the whole article here for you....this excerpt taken from it is one that I think sums up my own feelings very well and describes exactly what it felt like for me in my past In fact, one possible explanation for the latter finding is that ADHD boys are reluctant to empathize with others' negative emotional experiences in an effort to protect themselves from experiencing negative feelings.
What that means is....that I chose not to empathize at times but the ability was always there to the point of choosing not to because it was a painful or uncomfortable feeling. That's completely different than being a Narcissist. As I am very aware of in my own dealings and relationships with bona fide Narcissists....when you get smacked in the face with someone who literally does not have this ability......you know it and also sense that they are completely unaffected (non emotional) at all and can move right on by without blinking an eye. That's a different story and one that is hard not to notice when it happens. Lack of empathy in this case also comes along with lack or remorse, lack of guilt, lack of shame, lack of a lot of things including the ability it seems to be honest about much of anything when it comes to real feeling and emotions. That usually gets filled in with some kind of plausible excuse or story that you eventually begin to catch on is mostly BS. Why?...because these things are actually missing but they have to come up with something to fill in the spaces in between to function and integrate with other people as best that can be done considering.
The key here again is what is missing vs a lessoned capacity or it not being developed or nurtured along the way very well. (or more slowly but still getting there)
I also wanted to add that in my experience at least.....boys and (men) at times in general....are less likely to have really good skills in this area to begin with and a lot of that comes from being taught to be this way and how men tend to interact with each other without women around. This is a gross generalization but there is some truth to it as I can verify from my own experiences with this living life from this perspective. The only men I have encountered who were consistently not this way are gay and I'm saying this without prejudice having a number of gay men that I know and are friends. ( I am not a homophobe what so ever ). Men tend not to like to talk about or express emotions and feeling with each other and to the point of this being an uncomfortable situation that is pretty clearly self governing between men with many cues that are very well defined and understood in social situations between men in general. In other words.....it's looked down upon in a more stereotypical Neanderthalian male way. LOL I think this encouraged because it is uncomfortable and the message it sends is just don't do it so you don't learn to along the way.
Bottom line....yes, you can learn to develop better compassion and empathy skills having ADHD or not as long as your ability to do this is not compromised by something else like NPD which is not an automatic with ADHD but can come with it just like anything else.
FYI: my ex wife suffered from what I called chronic shallowness and she did not have ADHD. I think this comes from more deep seated low self esteem and insecurity IMHO.
J
A Second Thought
Submitted by kellyj on
...just to add to this after thinking about what I said. Another possibility here that I definitely see in myself (more in the past but it still exists in there somewhere to a lessor degree) is not that you learn not to be empathetic or have empathy yourself as much as you learn that other people are not going to be very empathetic to you or your pain and negative experiences having ADHD (whether you know you do or not). This apparent indifference to you teaches you to become indifferent to others under the same circumstances. Again...this is less a subliminal unconscious thing but more a learned response to how other people treat you and the resulting resentment (or hypocrisy) that you perceive to others indifference or intolerance of you especially when things get reversed and you see how they respond under what you see as the same thing and yet... they want you to treat them in the same way you want from them but never get it under the same circumstances. I think this happens over time and is something you learn from this experience but it is a really slippery slope to go down. These things are learned and can be unlearned too and have less to do with brain chemistry, neuron development and executive functioning I think.
J
Thank you so much for your
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
Thank you so much for your reply. I'm going to read it several times to take it all in. But, my initial reaction is that my husband has much more empathy and compassion for animals than he does for people. He grew up in agriculture and has a PhD in Animal Science. I assumed his ability to care for animals was because he had been taught as a child and formally trained as an adult. After reading your response, I realize that it could be because animals have treated him much better than people have.
not ADHD
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
<<<<<
When you don't have the ability to share someone else's feelings it is impossible to have a deep, meaningful relationship. It is impossible to be anything but shallow.
<<<<
this isn't ADHD....this is a personality disorder.
Does your H have any meaningful relationships with anyone? parents? siblings? friends? children? anyone?
My husband has pleasant
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
My husband has pleasant relationships with everyone. He does not have meaningful relationships with anyone.
Isnt this normal for adhd....not fitting in......having trouble connecting with others?
Difficulty connecting is normal
Submitted by bernerbits on
> Isnt this normal for adhd....not fitting in......having trouble connecting with others?
I can't speak specifically for your husband, but in general, this is due to a failure in the executive functions, not a lack of empathy.
I can't begin to count the number of times I've been told "You clearly just don't care." It's frustrating because I DO care. And being told that I don't care so many times has had the result that I care a great deal more than non-ADHD people. But all too often, my brain has a hard time remembering that I care. The feeling of recognition that you dropped the ball yet again is devastating.
Preaching to the Choir
Submitted by kellyj on
Your words are my words exactly. But to the point (taking responsibility here)..."You clearly just don't care" is what it looks like for everyone else. If it were them and they did this.....that is what it would mean for them. That says everything right there. You can't fight this or change this fact or blame other people for thinking this even if it is not true. The fact or reality is that it is not. You and I both know this and I feel the same as you. It matters a great deal and I do care but at what point does it matter enough to do something about it to change other peoples opinion of you? The only way this can happen is to change your behavior and prove them wrong. It's not up to you to change other peoples minds....all you can do is change your behavior and hope they will see things differently after you do but until that time, all you can do is say you are sorry and hope for their forgiveness but.....it is unreasonable to expect that other people will have an unlimited supply of forgiveness and patience if nothing ever changes which means......it is our responsibility to make those changes first before anything else can happen. Until that time comes.....we have to accept the fact that what it looks like or feels like for other people is that we just don't care and not let that in itself keep us from doing the things that we need to do to make these corrections.
Having said that.....what I have come to discover is that in the moment (at certain points in time)....the impulsivity part or my ADHD...or delay in the executive functioning process is really the culprit to most of these problems. That's why it looks like narcissism because functionally in those moments....it's the same thing which means I will do things if I am not paying attention to this that if I took more time and awareness of before I did them......I might otherwise have done something different if only I had stopped to slow down and think about it a little longer. That's why it looks like a child because this is how children act. But children do not have the ability or capacity to make any other decision outside of this behavior.....you and I do. Does this suck? Yes IT DOES!! But all that means is if this is the case....is to find a different way around this which means having to pay attention more than everyone else, having to stop and think about things more ahead of time than everyone else and having to work harder and expend more energy than everyone else to simply to the same thing and not run into these problems. Do we get any special credit or favor for this fact. Hell no....why should we? It's not everyone else's problem. What we get for doing this is to fit in and be like everyone else (and not have it affect them negatively)....that's our reward for doing it, we don't need a brownie button for every time we do things the same as everyone else just because it's harder to do. I think this is where the rub comes from and that part is all on our side of thinking.
In the big picture.....no one is special and no one deserves any special treatment. Any reward or special treatment (outside or food air and water ) you need to earn. Nothing is owed you until you put in the work to earn it from other people. In our case.....we earn it from making the changes that are possible and not worrying about the people who will never be satisfied even if this is the case.
This is where I can default to my old passive aggressive ways in the far a few between times (or with real Narcissists who will always blame you and everyone else for anything that they don't like because it's never good enough ) and say "at this point....I've done my best and if that is not good enough for you....you can go piss up a rope."
Only if that is the case and I have done everything I know that I can. Some people are going to be intolerant of anyone that they don't feel are meeting their standards or expectations and in my experience....the only ones who truly feels this way also tend to be pretty narcissistic themselves and are not very forgiving of anyone no matter what you do. These are the minority and the only ones that I truly don't care about because I know they truly don't care about me either. That's where the "piss up a rope" comes in handy on those rare occasions:) lol Unfortunately....being raised by one has taught me this harsh bit of reality and one that I have come to accept, like it or not.....the same as having ADHD.
J
Yes
Submitted by bernerbits on
No real argument here. People don't see a brain that can't self-start without assistance, they see laziness and apathy. And that's normally correct, because neurotypical people who act this way KNOW what they need to do, and choose not to. You can't fault them for it. But it doesn't take the sting away when you disappoint yet another person that's important to you. So often, even having developed compensating strategies over the years, it's like, "OK, I care deeply, but whatever I'm doing isn't yielding results. I need to make adjustments so that I am in line with that." And you adjust and adjust and adjust, but it still isn't enough.
One other point though, is that sometimes, people are willing to work with you. That's not special treatment, but rather cooperation. It's effectively saying, "I see that you are struggling due to your condition, and I am willing to offer the feedback and support that you need to help you be the best (employee/spouse/student/etc.) you are capable of being." A spouse or partner must be willing to provide this input and meet us halfway (sometimes more than halfway -- ugh!!) but we also have to be constantly vigilant about our behaviors and always adjusting our strategies when they become inadequate. It disappoints me that a lot of ADHD husbands aren't even willing to put in this effort.
I Agree
Submitted by kellyj on
And the sometimes when people are willing to work with you....it also their choice to do it. I have to remind myself of that when it happens and not get complacent. As much as I have to remind myself of this fact....I also have to remind myself that when I do see this despite my effort in paying attention to my ADHD symptoms (knowing this is what my wife of other people want)....I also have to be cognizant of the fact that my wife....also wants validation too. Some of that attention needs to go her way on top of everything else. That's the hardest part and the biggest complaint I hear. In all the energy and time invested in working on my symptoms....I have to remind myself of what I just said at the same time. My wife doesn't want to deal with my symptoms....but she does want my attention paid to her at the same time. All she gets from not having to deal with my ADHD symptoms is just that.....not having to deal with them or be responsible for the fallout. That's kind of a break even at that point for her even though it feels like I have worked my ass off just to get to that place. No brownie buttons unfortunately at that point. What my wife needs is what everyone wants and doing the first part is only 1/2 a days work (putting it that way). The part that shouldn't have to be work is the part where you are paying attention to your spouse. That's really where the reward comes from but it seems that it many times takes a second seat to all the other things.
Putting it another way.....we get the benefit from not having other people irritated or annoyed with us when we focus on the ADHD negative parts. Other people only get not to be annoyed and irritated! lol I have to remind myself that it really needs to be the other way around and not forget the most important part. I think if that were always the case....the other things would not seem like such a big deal and would resolve themselves on their own:)
J
Not the lack of empathy
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
The lack of empathy is a deeper problem. Usually something Axis II or perhaps Axis I, but I would bet Axis II from what you've described.
I agree with the other person that wrote that some Executive Function Disorders, which usually go hand in hand with ADHD can cause some friendship issues, but that's not what you're describing. You're describing problems with bonding and meaningful relationships.
You're describing narcissism.
I suspect that your H has "pleasant relationships" with everyone UNTIL there is an issue with one of them. Your H may even think that he has a great relationship with these people.
My husband really does have
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
My husband really does have pleasant relationships with everyone. He hates confrontation and He is very passive. When people treat him badly he usually forgets about it after a few months (literally forgets).
He also knows that he doesn't connect well with others. It bothers him quite a bit.
He lacks empathy.
He has extreme hyperfocus.
He doesn't pick up on social cues very well.
His executive function skills are somewhat impaired.
The first two items are the ones that have destroyed our marriage. The second two are easy to deal with.
Some of his actions really do appear narcissistic. I have thought it many times. However, he is an extremely hard worker and has been very devoted and loyal to me and our kids to the best of his ability. To his way of thinking, a good husband and father is a good provider for his family. He works tirelessly to insure that we are provided for. His brain just isn't able to switch from "provider" mode into "loving and caring " mode. Every minute of his free time is spent with our kids. His immaturity and desire to play sports and seek adventure are perfect for them. They love it. I'm the one that doesn't fit into his life. I'm the one that gets left out. Hence , the problems in our marriage.
One thing I noticed with NPD, BPD, and/or lack of empathy.....
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
I've noticed that those with NPD, BPD and/or lack of empathy have NO TROUBLE showing empathy in situations that don't involve their Narcissistic Supply.
For instance, the same NPD person can express real sympathy and empathy when they hear that some friend or neighbor had something horrible happen to them.
When my best friend was very ill, H was very empathetic towards her, and H was very angry at her H for not being helpful. However, the few times that I've been very injured or ill (one time when I was 8 months pregnant), not only was my H NOT empathetic, he became angry because I couldn't do much for him.
I'm not supposed to get sick or need anything. I'm supposed to be the one focused on him.
So, no you really can't teach them empathy, because they do have it, they just don't have it with the person that they have decided should be taking care of them.
When my best friend was very
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
When my best friend was very ill, H was very empathetic towards her and H was very angry at her H for not being helpful. However, the few times that I've been very injured or ill (one time when I was 8 months pregnant), not only is my H NOT empathetic, he becomes angry because I can't do much for him.
I have had an almost identical experience with my husband that you describe in this paragraph. However, he doesn't become angry with me when I'm ill. He just doesn't want to slow down from his important life to help me. I think "lack of empathy" and "hyperfocus" are to blame in this situation. He did get upset one time when a family friend's husband didn't properly take care of her when she was sick I was flabbergasted.
i should point out that over the years my husband has greatly improved in the area of "caregiver". I don't think that it is because he's developed empathy. I think it's because I have lectured him repeatedly about human decency. I have used dozens of analogies to try to get him to understand. At least some of it sunk in and he wants to be a better person so he makes a conscious effort to do better in that area.
deleted
Submitted by bernerbits on
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Confusing / Feining Sympathy, Compassion and Empathy with ...
Submitted by kellyj on
actually having it (feeling it and using it as a means to operate). I wanted to expand on something that you said based on the things that are beng talked about in this thread. You said... "with NPD, BPD and/or lack of empathy have NO TROUBLE showing empathy in situations that don't involve their Narcissistic Supply. For instance, the same NPD person can express real sympathy and empathy when they hear that some friend or neighbor had something horrible happen to them."
Showing it, expressing or feigning it (pretending to have it) outwardly is an intellectual process. Anyone can mimic what they see and present it back to you in the same way they see it to you as needed. If you have a "lack" of it....it means it exists in the first place. Sometimes yes and sometimes no. Sometimes when it should be there but something else is getting in the way. When you are really angry with someone....empathy is usually in short supply in that moment or non existent. That doesn't mean you don't have it the rest of the time and if you are really being self aware...you can even muster enough in the moment when you are angry to see a rational alternative from letting your anger get the better of you and not do things you would normally not do. That's a good example of "lack" of empathy.
I will argue in the case of a personality disorder like you are saying....empathy is not just lacking but it doesn't exist. There is a complete disconnect between the intellectual process and the emotions and feelings themselves. That doesn't mean that a person like this does not have emotions at all....but the ones they do possess are in a primitive incomplete state of consciousness and something is completely missing. That means...what looks like Love is really sympathy.....sympathy or feeling sorry for yourself that it. If you can feel sorry for yourself, then you can feel sorry for other people. But sympathy is not love or compassion....it is simply feeling sorry. Guilt is not shame either. They are two separate emotions or feelings but they get confused as well. You can feel guilty without being ashamed or feeling embarrassed. The same with anger. Is it anger you are feeling or just frustration? Are you angry because you are not getting what you want or are you angry because someone disrespects you? I would argue that if you are simply not getting what you want then you are really just frustrated that somehow you are not getting something that you feel you need or want to have whatever it is?
If someone is choking you and preventing you from breathing.....I would argue that this would be an appropriate time to be angry with them since you have to have air to breath or you will die. I would count that as a form of disrespect of you as a person and you are entitled the right to have oxygen to stay alive by simply existing...as does everyone else. That's an oversimplification of something that everyone understands without questioning it.
But if there is truly a disconnect between the ability to intellectualize a situation and process that against your emotions and feelings to arrive at a finished thought or an idea.....you will be missing the ability to have a complex emotion like Love, compassion and empathy. I agree with something that Hopeful Heart said earlier that Love is not a feeling.....it is much more complex and involves a deeper connection between feelings, emotions and cognitive thought. That falling in Love feeling is just one slice of the pie but it isn't the whole thing.....something is still missing in that equation before that counts as being fully developed real Love, compassion and empathy for another person. (the entire pie not just one slice of it )
From everything I've come to learn about a person who suffers from a personality/character disorder.....something is missing completely in the process. They are only operating on a slice of the pie at all times but they do not realize this. How can you know that you are missing what you don't have? (or are even aware that exists if you have never had it or know what it is ?) For a person like this.....they can mimic what they see at the appropriate time as needed because intellectually....they know that is what they are supposed to do but.....that isn't the same as actually having the same complex emotion to work from that tells you what to do. All you have at that point is what feels good or feels bad (primitive emotions and feelings like anger, lust, hunger, pain and hurt) and that is your basis for everything you do. All you can do is simply react and behave according to that feeling but that feeling is not a complex emotion that involves a balance of all these things. Without the ability to do this (when something is missing entirely)...you cannot have or even know what a real complex emotion even is in the first place which means.....it doesn't exist.
I read something recently that explained this to me in a way that was easy to understand. It said that narcissism (or healthy narcissism) is necessary for our survival as a person. Without it....we would become vulnerable to harm or injury to ourselves in some way because we would be left somewhat defenseless if we did not have the ability to weigh options against what might be bad for us or not in our best interest. But that is part of a healthy balance with the ability to weigh what others want from us against what is in our best interest ( in order to survive and thrive and an individual). With someone who has a personality disorder like this....that balance gets thrown out scale when a part of this process goes AWOL (the piece of the pie that's missing). What you get is that one slice of the pie taking over and going to an extreme which in other words....fills in the rest of the pie and operates as if it is all there. The problem is.......it isn't there in the first place but that person does not know it or realizes this. All the explaining and trying to tell that person that this is true will never get them to see that it is but.....on some level.....they do know that something is wrong. They can feel that something isn't right and that feels bad but that's all they know. By default.....they deny what feels bad and blames that feeling on something outside of themselves at all times and only acknowledges things that feels good for them. Feels good for them because that is all they know and have to work from since the part that's missing is the part that is needed to have a fully developed emotion like love, compassion and empathy for another person outside of themselves. They are fundamentally purely egocentric without this ability.
Everyone has moments like this (when you are angry like my example ) and that's normal to a lessor degree at times but....you also know the difference when or even after it happens. For a person like this.....they do not know this difference and probably never will if they are completely disordered. That's my understanding of this at least......I might not be completely (or exactly accurate) but I think basically....what I am saying is correct from what I have learned.
J
JJamieson - Thank you so much
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
JJamieson - Thank you so much for all of your thoughtful responses. They are very helpful.
I would like to ask you about an aspect of my husbands adhd that I don't understand at all. He is very extreme in all areas of his life. It looks like he's constantly trying to produce adrenaline. Do you have any insight about this?
Yes, That Does Sound Familiar lol
Submitted by kellyj on
People have mentioned to me at times, especially in my past before I started on medication that I can be very intense at times. Other adjectives I could use would be: lust for life, extreme, crazy (in a more complimentary way...thinking more in terms of being with male friends at times doing extreme sports activities ...remembering that cereal commercial "let's see if Mikey will eat it (do it)" ha ha. In this case...Mikey (me) will do anything" I had a propensity to want to climb things and jump off things as high and as far as I could go." pushing the envelope, running motorized equipment (cars, motorcycles, tools) into the ground or until they broke. Not from being careless....more just pushing them past their limits trying to squeeze every drop of what they had out of them. In the same way....I did (and still do) the same for myself personally. My MO in most things is to push it until it breaks and then back off after that the next time.
I did this when I was young at my parents disapproval and outcry but later....I found that this became a way to test myself (or inanimate objects) to know what I can expect from them and know the full range of their potential (useable or functional range). In my work or in areas of my life where I want to perform or do things as well as I can.....this proves to be an asset. With people.....that is another story. Most people do not find this an asset aside from a handful of friends who still enjoy this aspect about me (they themselves are extreme and intense and share this way of thinking and approaching things). For example....my closest friends (some going back to childhood) are: Air Force fighter pilot (F-15 and F-4). Triathlete and Marathon competitor (I've use to do Triathlons too but I am a terribly slow runner...I hate running lol), Iron Butt motorcycle and Track racers extreme distance and speed competitor. Even when we are together and not doing adrenaline activities (far less anymore for all of us since we are old and in the way now ..over late 50's) yet we all still do these things to a lessor degree to this day and will usually want to do what ever it is to a level or degree that is not comfortable for most people (or even at all in many cases). It seems we have found each other in a sense that we appear to naturally want to do things to the extreme even if it's not all the time or everywhere we go.
The point is that for me.....this does not feel or seem either extreme or intense many times while I am doing it. I'm not doing it (or haven't done it) to show off or for recognition that's the important aspect. I also don't like to be out of control any more than the next person so for me....I am always keeping in my comfort zone and staying in control in all aspects of this. I also will do it the same whether I am by myself or with other people around. Actually many times.....I would prefer to be by myself when I am like this so other people DON'T see me since not everyone appears to be comfortable or approve of my methodology in most cases. lol Many times when other people are around..I actually back off and bring it down a notch to be considerate or not appear that I am trying to show off or draw attention to myself. I am and have been very aware of this aspect most of my life and usually default to trying to fly under the radar as often as I can.
Thinking back and now considering this......I would say it started out as me being a hyper active kid looking for stimulation and gravitating to these kinds of things and looking for the adrenaline rush. But later....and even to this day on medication....once you learn to do this over time and do it long enough....you discover the benefits of doing things this way and the skills that you inadvertently gained along the way. Now it is less about adrenaline and more just enjoying using what you have to it's greatest extent ( taking advantage of what ever potential you have and the skills you developed that you already own). For me now.....this just feels good in a more satisfying way rather than a need for stimulation. I did notice however.....a very dramatic drop in my desire to do these things as much after I started medication. The Adderall for me cuts out most of any need for stimulation or intense activities so now I can say it is mostly just a learned habit in the way of doing things but in a more subdued manner. I no longer push things until they break anymore. lol (that was more when I was a kid or teenager).
Putting this in context to what you are asking about......I think it is safe to say that what is extreme for one person is somewhat normal for another. If you are on the high side of this then most people will see you as extreme even if it doesn't feel this way to you. I think that sums up my experience with this and a possible perspective to give consideration to? Thinking along those lines.......if I met your H, he would probably not appear all that extreme to me but.....I have been around very extreme people who from where I stand.......appear rather extreme to me all thing considered. Not everything is about adrenaline or stimulation....many times for me, it's more just curiosity and wanting to see what is at the end of the line or where the boundaries are in everything. From where I see it.....it's just a need to know where I am and just how far I have to go before I set out to do anything first so I know what to expect and how to do things well ahead of time. This has become part of my ADHD strategy of testing things first and trial and error before I actually do something for real when it counts. I know this makes many people very nervous and I can attest to that much for sure. I definitely see for some.....making mistakes or errors can be devastating for them. My sister is one of these people and will research and prepare and think about things for a very long time before she does them. And even when she does....she will need to be in total control at all times to make sure that there are no errors or mistakes. And if she can't do things in this manner...she won't do them at all but.....when she does things you can pretty much count on the fact that there will be no slip ups, mistakes or errors involved. There is something to be said for her method as well and she is very reliable and you can always count on this aspect about her. The down side to this is that she does not have a lot of skills and needs help doing many things that other people can do without much difficulty. From where I sit....she is very limited and not very diverse however.....what she does do, she does flawlessly and consistently well. If that is your goal.....she is a super star.
I think this is all part of what you might be seeing and the reasons why? I can see the strengths and weaknesses in being either way but I think it is much easier to see all these differences better when you are at the top of the mountain looking down after climbing to the top than always staying on the ground and seeing things only from that perspective.....know what I mean? lol
J
pushing the envelope, running
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
pushing the envelope, running motorized equipment (cars, motorcycles, tools) into the ground or until they broke. Not from being careless....more just pushing them past their limits trying to squeeze every drop of what they had out of them.
This is the perfect analogy for how my husband has treated me. We have built a business together. He has worked me relentlessly until I am old, broken, and no longer of use. The working livestock have received more compassion than me. The large equipment has received more care and maintenance. I wish I were exaggerating, Now I I have insomnia, anxiety and depression. I barely leave the house. "Extreme hyperfocus" and "lack of empathy" can be a cruel combination.
My only consolation is that the business is very successful. I currently live apart from him and the business. I left them both. However, I make a sizable withdrawal every month from the business that I helped build. If we divorce I should get a good settlement. I married for love and got money instead.
My husband has never taken medication. I'm afraid of the possibility of making things worse than they already are. It seems that a lot of people have that problem with medication.
Thank you so much for your insights!
Impulsive
Submitted by bernerbits on
Yes - this is the impulsivity aspect of ADHD.
Physiologically our brains lack dopamine and norepinephrine. High-"adrenaline" activities - activities that stimulate the adrenal system - actually cause a flood of dopamine, epinephrine and norepinephrine. It's no surprise that some ADHD people seek these activities out - we feel "normal" during these times.
Yes!
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
The need for adrenaline is exactly what my H experiences.
Adrenaline is a natural drug. It gives them a "high".
In my H's case, he has had life-long depression and anxiety (but denied it until recently), and the way he combatted it was with adrenalin. The excitement pulls him out of doldrums.
This isn't something that he knowingly does. As a matter of fact, one reason he denied having depression for so long was because his "adrenaline high" was masking a lot.
Interesting Bernerbits and OW ?
Submitted by kellyj on
After reading what bernerbits said.. High-"adrenaline" activities - activities that stimulate the adrenal system - actually cause a flood of dopamine, epinephrine and norepinephrine. It's no surprise that some ADHD people seek these activities out - we feel "normal" during these times.
And then reading what you just said Adrenaline is a natural drug. It gives them a "high". In my H's case, he has had life-long depression and anxiety (but denied it until recently), and the way he combatted it was with adrenalin. The excitement pulls him out of doldrums. This isn't something that he knowingly does. As a matter of fact, one reason he denied having depression for so long was because his "adrenaline high" was masking a lot.
Between these two statements....I think you and bernerbits accurately explained exactly what is happening with someone with ADHD with only two corrections (combining the two statements and editing them slightly) In my thinking here....you cannot live on adrenaline alone but it does feel good at these times......but this is true for everyone. It is like a "natural drug" but it not only gives people with ADHD a high....it does this with everyone. Adrenaline "junkies" comes in all shapes and sizes and it's not just people with ADHD.
So throw out....."it gives them a "high".....and add it what bernerbits is saying and including what I just said about it feeling "good". I hate nothing more than being misquoted or having other people put "words into my mouth" ( that really pisses me off!! ) So instead of edited what you said about your H, OW....I will reword your comments and personalize it for myself which not only is accurate for me but I think this could be accurately said for many people who have ADHD as well using myself here as just one example.
Adrenalin is a natural drug. In my case, I have had (at times) life-long depression and anxiety, and the way I combated it was with adrenalin. The momentary excitement helps pull me out of the doldrums. It's no surprise that some ADHD people seek these activities out because at these moments, they feel "normal" or even just "good" during these times. This isn't something that I knowingly do (or did in my case). As a matter of fact, one reason I denied having depression for so long was because I was masking a lot (of my depression by using this as a means to manage it and just feel Okay. It was the only means I had to try and keep myself level (or normal) like everyone else. Without knowing better.....this became a default for me in a way to stem off feeling bad or depressed all the time and it definitely worked to do exactly what I just said )
What I wanted to add to this was.......I didn't seek these activities to get "high". For someone without ADHD.....they might be true "adrenaline junkies" in the sense that they are doing it to get "high" and have that experience. To quote a friend once who said something really poignant about a person who becomes a heroin addict. He said " a heroin addict isn't doing it for fun or recreation like many other drugs......they're doing it to kill the pain." I think in the same vain.....this is exactly why people with ADHD do what they do and the reason why most of the time.....it's not for fun or recreation (to get high)...it's just to feel Okay and normal just like everyone else.
J
I think I understand your point.
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
Yes, everyone gets a high from adrenaline.
My point was that depressed people, including those with ADHD (which I think may be most), may not realize that they are depressed because they seek out situations that give them that rush.
When my H was in college, he became very depressed and had a breakdown. H has not shared all the details, and I don't think his T at the time was very honest with him (likely because he feared that H might get too upset with the truth).
Anyway....up to the point of the breakdown, H had never dated...and he was depressed about that. The T encouraged him to "go get laid"....and H did. From then on, H went thru a cycle of women, but he was "high" from all of that...the excitement of new women, the sex, etc.
This went on for about 5 years.....and it masked his depression a LOT. So much so that he fought with me about having life-long depression. When H was younger, he was a star athlete. That also gave him a high.
When we were first married, H exercised a LOT...a ridiculous amount....but it gave him a high.
I Also Think You Are Right OW
Submitted by kellyj on
Depression is a tricky thing in a chronic sense. I have many times have had to stop and think about this and really look hard at myself to see depression since I think it is tied to the ruminating negative thoughts that people with ADHD are so prone to have. This is not being just depressed over some external bad thing that has happened either. It's certainly not just feeling sad. If there is nothing to feel bad or depressed about in your life in general and you still can't seem to shake this feeling then I would say it is the kind of depression that you are talking about and I definitely can see this in myself as more of an undercurrent at times that can be very insidious if you are not aware of it.
And to the point you are making.....this is the thing that without awareness of it.....will pull you into doing things that will alleviate this feeling without even realizing you are doing it for that reason. At that level of experience....I don't even know if you can even count that as denial since it is so hard to see or even feel it is there. That's where professional help really becomes invaluable in figuring this kind of thing out. This is where the right medication can make a world of difference but I can also see where a person is not going to feel the need to do anything about it until it gets really bad. I can see that as being a real problem in getting someone else to see this about themselves and why it plays out like I just said. (not going to get help and thinking everything is just fine when it is not )
I think the kind of denial that gets referenced more often in connection to ADHD is more on a more conscious overt level to count as being such ( past experiences, abuse and family dysfunction and visible symptoms as an example) but I could be wrong?
I do think this could be (or is) the source for many of the negative filters and more subtle thinking distortions that other people witness at times however that would be considered an ADHD symptom. Depending on how bad it is.......if it is only there a little bit or slightly is where I think this can be a real problem.
J
I Know Very Little About...
Submitted by kellyj on
how or why amphetamines work with some people and not with others? For me....they are a God send, really. The impulsive aspect and seeking stimulation was almost completely tamed just by going on Adderall alone. If this were the case with your H (saying better late than never for him not for you) it might do just the opposite of what you are afraid of. It's very counter intuitive to think that this would work that way and I resisted taking them at first for that reason alone ( I don;t like pills in general..even aspirin ) but what can I say....someone figured this out a while ago it works for some of us. I will say this however...if I had not gone for so long undiagnosed and not even knowing I had ADHD, having to figure most of these things out on my own along the way (finding coping skills and strategies)....I think it would have been very different if I had started taking speed when I was younger. Sorry for the slang but I still make fun of myself to others about being a "speed freak"....it's a joke but I'm calling it like it is. Adderall is more PC but it really is speed if you want to call it by a different name...I'm not too worried about any perceived stigma.
And I am truly sorry to hear about going through what you did with your H. I think a lot of this can be chalked up to where you put your priorities. I had a really good example of growing up with someone who placed money in front of everything else so that soured me in that way as an adult seeing what I didn't want from that experience. I make a modest living with the things I do but that has never been my focal point. I think there are much more important things to spend your time doing while we're here and have the chance as long as you make enough to pay the bills. I've managed to do that at an acceptable level without any help from outside. I really don't understand your H's comment about never going to have an intimate relationship with you but that does sound suspicious to me as far as that being directly connected to ADHD? I can see how I could wear someone out trying to keep up with me and the outside interests but I have also never been someone who gets hooked on just one thing and runs that into the ground including work ( work-a-holics ). Again...that sounds familiar too which I don't think is necessarily an ADHD thing either. What keeps on resonating with me when I read so many posts here in this forum is the funny feeling that sounds very much like how I felt growing up being an after thought in someone else grand plan of how things should be.....more of a second or third thought if you can understand what I am saying. These are all lessons I carry with me on how NOT TO BE!....having been there so I think that does carry a lot of weight in how I see things and not knowing I had ADHD all along (but did)......I can see myself much differently than many of the posts here about their spouses who do. It makes it easier for me (and why I came here in the first place) to see just what parts are ADHD and what parts aren't. I have a much better feel for this than I use to after listening to all the stories and sorting this out for myself. The thing that I said about being very aware of myself compared to others and not wanting my ADHD intensity or extremes showing kind of tells you that just because you have it...doesn't mean you are not completely unaware. I downplayed it so I could fit in and not have it affect other people even before I knew I had it so you see......it it matters and you care about these things....you do what is most important to you despite it.
That's my take on the things that you said about your H. It's not like ADHD has control over you like someone with a remote control and you have no power over it? I think at the end of the day.....people do what they want to do no matter what obstacles get in your way. ADHD is not a predictor for all behavior or the choices that someone makes. It really never stopped me from doing things I wanted but I think I definitely sought out things that were more exciting rather than less because of it but my hobbies and outside activities were never more important than other things or my relationships. If anything....the things that suffered the most had more to do with yard work and house cleaning. Still working on that but I've bumped that up a few notches on my priority list and the time I have available. I've discovered picking up as you go is a real time saver! LOL
I've never been accused of being a couch potato! lol :)
J
j
For my husband the
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
For my husband the intenseness and extremeness aren't just recreational activities. It permeates every part of our life. Our business is complex. We have a 10,000 head confined feeding operation. 5,000 acres of farmland spread across two counties. We lease ranches in three states. He constantly juggles at least 20 balls. He's constantly late and he's constantly looking for something that he has lost and he loves every minute of it. Our house and property are big and complicated. We live in an almost desert climate but he planted 200 trees and five acres of high maintenance grass on the property. That all requires a ton of time and energy to maintain. We currently have five horses, two dogs and one cat at our house. There have been even more animals at times. That is a large daily responsibility. Vacations are extreme and sometimes dangerous. The list goes on and on. I have unwittingly been dragged into all of it with him. I can't separate myself from it. I believe that two decades of over stimulation for me is the reason that I have anxiety, depression and insomnia. In addition to my emotional struggles I also have health problems that are stress related. He has acknowledged that our life is out of balance and that my struggles are a direct result. However, he's not willing to pull back at all. That's why I finally had to leave.
Thank you for letting me get all of this off of my chest. I am not usually a whiner or complainer. I will try to be more positive in the future.
You have my sympathy, Hopeful
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
You have my sympathy, Hopeful Heart. I'm living this on a much smaller scale. My husband and I own a house. He moved out a few years ago to take care of his aging parents in a city 150 miles away. I'm not equipped to take care of the house on my own. I never would have bought a house if I had stayed single. Not only am I ill-equipped to take care of any house but also it's in worse shape than it should be because I trusted my husband to take care of it while he was here and he has neglected it. It's very stressful.
Thank you so much! It helps
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
Thank you so much! It helps to know that others understand.
You do Not Have to Apologize Hopeful Heart
Submitted by kellyj on
It doesn't sound like being positive is a problem for you and I really appreciate all the things you have shared with everyone here. I think you have put things into context very well and it has been really helpful for me at the same time.
Some where in what I just wrote to you I mentioned the feeling that I had about being and second or third thought in someone else's "grand plan." I think what you just described would qualify for exactly that. What you said about having anxiety, depression and insomnia due to being sucked into this kind of lifestyle is something that really hits home for me.( sounds more like a semi-controlled cyclone )
I'm saying this on my end now and the part that is a really good reminder for those of us who have ADHD to keep in mind. It's not just being late or losing things as you mentioned....or picking any other single items out of the mix of things that you described....it's the entire lifestyle choice and the part about being unwittingly dragged into it with him. I believe you when you said you are not a whiner or complainer....that would appear rather academic after reading what you said.:)
It would also appear from everything else you have mentioned that empathy really is a rare commodity for you H after sharing everything that you said here. I appreciate your candor and putting all of this into context so well. I also get the feeling from you that your perspective all things considered..... is as unbiased and selfless as one could possibly be under the circumstances.
What you do not have to apologize for is looking back and coming to the realization that being there for you H in all his endeavors, dangerous vacations and the rest ( going along and being swept up or sucked in ) was anything more than just trying to be a good partner and being supportive of what he wanted and putting your own needs in all of this aside at the cost of the physical symptoms you just described. Hind sight is 20/20 but I don't think you have anything to feel sorry for or regret on your end. I do know what it is like to be in your position from my own past and if I am correct in making an assumption from what you have said.....you've just been patiently waiting for your turn for the same things you have invested into your relationship to be reciprocated but seemingly....never come? I do understand what that is like and the reasons why ( going back to the earlier discussion about empathy and narcisissm )
Somewhere in another post somewhere I mentioned that "extremes" can serve as really good examples as a means to use a guide for making comparisons for that reason alone. The pattern I described about "pushing things until they break and then backing off the next time" is just that (including using this information to for the future and the backing off part). It's useful for me now in the work I do, but I have a lifetime of experience with this pattern to have perfected it to a fine art. It allows me to go just this side of too much and not go too far when needed but that doesn't mean I do this all the time without intention. It's just a tool to use as needed and a good skill to have. That's comes from taking this pattern that early in life was mostly negative and turning it around and making good use of what I learned from those bad experiences.
That's called "evolving" as a person in my mind. What I see now more clearly from what you said.....is this same pattern in your H completely running amok and seemingly never changing or evolving into anything different and just continuing to grow and expand on a larger scale. That's not growing, changing, adapting or evolving as a person.....that's just getting better at doing the same thing repeatedly over time.
This is not what I have tried to describe for myself in my own experiences with you here just to be sure. It's also why I appreciate your comments because this is the kind of thing that is really useful for me and helps to remind me of exactly what I should be focusing on in the big picture.
It's also why you should not feel the need to apologize since it has been very helpful for me to hear your experience in doing this for myself:) Thank you.
J
In fairness to my husband, I
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
In fairness to my husband, I should give his side of the story, also. He is very aware of the propensity for people like him to succumb to unhealthy addictions and infidelity. He has seen it happen in his family quite a lot. He believes that by living and working in the country (as opposed to the big, bad city) he is avoiding temptation. He drinks zero alcohol and refuses to take any pain medications because he doesn't want to risk addiction. He is very particular about the women that he hires to work in his office. He chooses only motherly or grandmotherly types. He doesn't want any temptations around. So, in his mind he is protecting his family while, simultaneously, being a good provider. Technically, he is keeping his brain focused where it should be. He is doing the the right thing. It's just not the right thing for me. I am grateful that he is so conscientious in these matters. But, I crave a more simple life and my overworked nervous system needs a break.
JJamieson, you are very insightful. I have actually asked my husband on a number of occasions, "When is it going to be my turn?" He has never given me a verbal answer. However, I think I got my answer last year. He built us a vacation home with a view of the Rocky Mountains in a small city that I love. He even had it professionally furnished and decorated because he knew that would be stressful for me. However, it quickly became clear that he would never spend a significant amount of time there. He won't leave his work. So it became an escape for me and that's where I'm currently living. He hopes that after a while I'll be rested enough to go back to him. It's been about four months so far. Neither one of us want our family to be torn apart. It's a complex situation. I feel horribly guilty and weak for "wearing out". I wish I could keep up with him.
Thank you so much for your insight and words of encouragement. I really appreciate them!!
This Sounds Familiar Too
Submitted by kellyj on
My oldest sister (who I suspect has ADD possibly?) has a similar situation. Her husband retired early and built a beautiful beach home for the two of them but really...it's for him. They also completely remodeled their home in town (almost completely gutted it and started over) which my sister was very involved in. So basically...he has his dream home and she has hers which they both spend most of the time in apart. The distance between them is not a long distance so they do commute back and forth together on the weekends. That's about it as far as the time they spend together. I don't hear much complaining and they seem to be pretty happy with the arrangement? Then again.....I would be the last one to hear about it if there was a problem. lol
I'm glad to hear he your H is conscientious in that way though....I think that counts as his heart is being in the right place. I have read this here on the forum and mentioned a few times that it does take a certain type of person to do well with us.....not everyone is suited well for the chaos that it does seem that we can create at times and I can say for myself.....that is the main thing I am trying hard to temper and bring things down a notch for my wife's sake. It does sound like you have a good healthy perspective on this. I hope things can find their own equilibrium in time between the two of you as it does appear it has for my sister and her husband. In the mean time....get some rest for the sake of your nerves...that never hurts:)
J
ADHD person saying, 'I'm sorry". LOVE THIS THREAD
Submitted by dedelight4 on
I love this thread, and think it is SO INSIGHTFUL AND HELPFUL. Jay, (if you're reading this) I'm still loving your posts. There is something VERY important in all this. It is vital to the spouses of the ADHD person (and others also) to be able to hear them say "I'm sorry". But, not in a quick, head down, not looking you in the face sort of thing, where it's like a child getting caught taking candy, with a quick, even resentful, mumbled under the breath....."sorry". I mean a genuine LOOK YOU IN THE FACE, sincere, verbal...."I'm sorry I hurt you". I know the ADHD person can hurt their loved ones often, not meaning to, but it happens. In my case (like many others) my husband will get frustrated and resentful and then defiant and DEFENSIVE, if you dare mention that he said yet another "fell out of mouth hurtful jab at me or someone". That INSTANT anger, and "mad face" then shows up and he shuts down.
I've learned to hold my tongue and hold my words in, and speak in better ways, It's very hard when I see my husband in an ADHD "tornado mode", and "another moody, bad mood day". He wants to have HIS emotional needs met, but there's no way he can meet mine. No wonder I'm spent.
What I'm actually trying to say, is this. After reading all these posts, It's vital for all persons involved to say to each other.............looking each other in the face............coming from the heart........"I'm sorry"...........or ..............."I'm very sorry". I've said it numerous times to my husband. I haven't heard it back, as much as I've needed to, but he swears he says it. Like many other things and conversations we've had, he's sure he said something, but didn't, or DIDN'T SAY SOMETHING and swear he did.
But, as far as the "I'm so sorry"..... and/or "please forgive me".................. I NEED TO HEAR IT..............it would help, so much.
Is This Kizmet Dedelight4..Or Something Ese?
Submitted by kellyj on
Thank you for your kind words...I do appreciate them really.(and have in the past:) And my heart continues to go out to you when I read your posts too. Having a physical disability by itself can wear you down to the nub without anything else coming into to play let alone...trying to deal with someone else's dysfunction on top of that. I can imagine....there are times when it probably brings you right to the edge and feels like you have no place left to go. I think these are the times when hearing things like a heart felt "I'm sorry" is all you would need to bring you back from the edge when you really need it. For what it's worth.....I'm am really sorry that you are not getting that from your H when you really need to hear it.....even though I do understand.....it's not me who you need to hear this from. Having said that in light of what I just said to you....it does help just to hear it even from a different source just like hearing your encouraging words helps me in the same way. Thanks again:)
The Kismet I am referring too....is in connection to a sort of epiphany that I just had in connection with a number of realizations and discoveries that I have made which in a huge part...has come from listening and reading the stories on this forum like yours. The fact that you brought me back to this thread (so I could reread the things that were being said only illuminated this "light bulb" moment I had even more.
For me...the response to me made by Hopeful Heart is the most poignant and important thing that was said in this entire thread...it was also the shortest one and said with the fewest words.......
Thank you so much! It helps to know that others understand.
The part about others understanding hits home in a way that there is no way to describe to you. In the same vein as you wanting to hear that your H is genuinely sorry.....this is what I want and have wanted all my life......just for other people to understand what it is like having ADHD. To know what that would be like for you....you would have to have it to truly understand in the way I am talking about. Cognitively.....I'm sure you and everyone else can read about the facts and descriptions and get a feeling or close approximation...but to have it goes to a place that is so deep and involves so many things that I can't (and won't even begin to try and explain) how all consuming it can be at times. The awareness of this in itself....was really, really important for me. It brought me full circle to understanding myself and why I do the things I do. Getting right down to the "motivation" that is driving me at times without me actually being aware of it or why that is. My epiphany was when I was brought to this moment of clarity and awareness and was able to see it (possibly?) for the first time in it's entirety that has spanned my entire life right up to this moment.
Part of this realization will sound like it is coming from a victims stance but that is only if you see it this way. This part I have to give credit to my T for talking to me many times about "changing your relationship" to it or how you see these things. This IS what you have control over and the only thing that truly.....only you can do for yourself. No amount of "I'm sorry" or "I understand" coming from anyone else will ever be able to make this kind of lasting and permanent change in you.
The realization itself is not ground breaking or difficult to understand...." no one is ever going to really know or understand what it is like to have ADHD unless you have it and experience these things first hand." What occurred to me in this moment was that so much of my anger and frustration....seemingly about other things at times....is still coming from these very, very old and unresolved feelings from a lifetime of simply wanting something that I know now....I will never have.
I will never know what it is like not to have ADHD and the best I can hope for....is to find the best ways to manage it and become better skilled at dealing with the problems and challenges it present for me. This has been going on for so long ( since day one )...that you don't realize that this is what you have been doing all along from the first day your conscious thoughts came on line! lol What no one can see except for you...is that the executive function problems that ADHD creates for you are there and have been there every moment you have been alive in one form or degree and you have just adapted to them and found work around and ways to deal them in your entire lifetime of doing this.
What you and others see whether it's good or bad is just the tip of the iceberg. These are only the things that you haven't been successful at dealing with yet and the ones that get physically manifested into a form that you or other people can actually see. The work that you have to do and things that (we) have to deal with starts from the second we open our eyes everyday and continues like this until you go to sleep at night.
Part of this realization came from listening to an audio I stumble across of Melissa Orlov...speaking to a group of people describing in her words what it is like for people with ADHD. Hearing her describe how different our brains are and how things that other people take for granted that are somewhat "automatic" for people without ADHD really hit the mark in what I am trying to say here.
It doesn't occur to someone who has this automatic brain function in the way she was describing....just what it would be like if that weren't happening to even know what that would be like in the first place? How could you?
What I am talking about here is not understanding what happens or why it is we do what we do......it's not understanding the emotions and the feelings that are a result of this phenomenon....including the frustration, the anger, the hurt and the misunderstanding that are just part of everyday life....all the time, everywhere you go. This does appear to be the common thread that we share together for the vast majority of people who have ADHD.
So if you can understand how badly you need to hear "I'm sorry" from your husband.....you also need to understand that he cannot know what it is like to experience (HIM) from his point of view. He simply can't know what that feels like unless he were to experience it for himself first hand which in light of the same thing I am saying.....there is no way that this is possible or for him to truly know what that is like any more than you can know what it feels like to have ADHD no matter how many way or times he or I could explain it to you. This is not something that will ever happen just like I will not ever know what it feels like not to have ADHD. Not on this level that I am trying to describe.
The best you can hope for is to try and understand but genuine sympathy or even empathy does require in a sense....that you have or know what something is like in order to have it for someone else. That is what's missing on both sides in order to do this for another person.
But going back to what my T has been beating into my head for the past decade or more....is that you can change your personal relationship with your own feelings and emotions as you connect them with your experiences. By doing this at the very least......you are approximating what it might be like for the other person by giving you a new baseline to operate from, and by creating a context that was not there before. It's this context that is missing on both sides that you have to create which is otherwise by default.....not there on either side of the equation.
I can tell you from experience....just how difficult this is to do. It takes a strong willingness and a lot of effort but it can be done.
As for myself.....I have a long way to go but I can say at the very least.....I see the pathway now to getting there where before I felt like a pin ball on a pinball machine that was completely in the dark! lol
Anyway....taking your words now and adding them to my list of things to remember......even if I can't see exactly what it is that I need to be sorry for always.....if I say it more often anyway (even if it feels like I'm just going through the motions in those moments)....I will remind myself just to do it anyway and know that I will be doing exactly what my wife needs from me. Take care Dede...thanks again.
J
Adding Something Important Here That I Forgot to Mention
Submitted by kellyj on
I forgot to include something else that really registered with me when I was listening to Melissa's audio about the "patterns" of being in a relationship with someone with ADHD. I'm going to preface this by emphasizing that these patterns may exist in other relationships at times and are not necessarily unique in a general sense...what really registered in light of the things I was just trying to describe about "very old feelings" or unresolved emotions in the case of someone like myself with ADHD...I think it's really important to frame this specifically as an ADHD thing as I was understanding what Melissa was saying and how it absolutely hit upon this aspect in me in no uncertain terms...without question.
As I recall what she said.....first, there is the behavior from us ( the ADHD'er). Second, there is a reaction from you (the non-ADHD ) Third, the is a reaction from us....reacting to the reaction from you. This is the pattern and when I heard her say this it rang loud and clear like an old friend calling my name. If you can't see it or haven't thought about this before....I think this is a really good place to pause and think about this more.
If you take what I was saying about not being able to see things or not knowing what the other person knows or feels (as they are different)...our own behavior is mostly unseen by us until we get called out for it. In other words.....we don't know it or realize this until someone says something and it's likely been going on for a while before that happens which is usually when the other person is at the point of being angry.
In that moment....we are: shocked, stunned,surpised,offended, taken aback, bewildered, hurt and ultimately will react based on just these emotions. Over time.....you learn to fight back with anger if it keeps happening as our response or defense against something that we cannot see or connect with as we see the other person from our point of view. This anger is most definitely from fear that the hurt you feel from this experience, is going to keep happening (because it does) and you will tend to become BIG and menacing over time as this fear keeps increasing since this interaction seems to keep happening again and again which appears to be for no apparent reason?
But is what is more insidious and even more hurtful that these overt situations are the subtle more subliminal reactions that you get from people you meet or just strangers at times. At least for me....I've always been pretty socially aware even when I was young and picked up on these sometimes less obvious kinds of reactions from people in a very general but consistent basis. I've read a lot of comments about how people with ADHD are not socially aware, socially unacceptable at times or miss cues at times which is true for me too to a point....but because I picked up on these more subtle "attitudes" or a sense of "irritation" or "negativity" or even more overt behavior like being somewhat rude, short or disrespectful ( snide remarks or put downs) directed at me (again as I saw it...without seeing the part that I played into this pattern)....I developed a pattern myself of first...being hurt, feeling rejected and then shutting down and becoming quiet which probably made me appear shy or not very engaging. By nature.....I'm not shy and I'm very engaging.......too much so at times which is where this pattern all begins. I learned from this experience to be quiet and not be very forthcoming as a way to keep this kind of thing in check as a defense strategy. That was my main go to strategy when I was very young and to this day....it's still my first default when I perceive the reactions like this from others until I'm confronted with a situation where this no longer will work. At that point.....out comes the anger as my second line of defense as a last resort. The fear was from not understanding what is happening and not knowing what to do or how to make this stop.
I don't need to go into your side of things and how you feel since you already know how it appears to you on your end. If you were with me....first, I would get quiet and not do anything for a while. Then seemingly...out of the blue....I would snap and go off on you. If you go back and reread my last paragraph.....a lot of things went on before that happened and there were several steps that came first in this process before I finally did anything which was usually at the point of me getting angry.
If you step back and look at both sides of this....the response and the reactions are identical for the identical reasons and neither side can see any reason for what the other person is doing....only that it is hurtful and it makes you angry because it.
The reason that this is an ADHD pattern specifically as I see this so clearly now....is simply because we can't see ourselves in these moments because of the gaps or delays in our executive functions. That's one of the by products of this deficiency for us.
As I have been working on this for quite some time, the way this progresses is; first....you begin to see these things too, but it's always after the fact. In the moment....you still can't see it to arrest it and make it stop. As time goes on however with attention and practice...the time delay begins to shorten and keeps getting shorter all the time until finally.....you begin to see it right then and there in the moment when you need to. That's the work and the effort you have to put in in order for you to be able to do this consistently to a level that other people start backing off from you. If you never get that point.....other people never stop and will not back off it's as simple as that.
The last level in stopping this pattern completely comes when you can step out of the pattern itself and see it happening in the moment along with your own behavior within it. Seeing it while you are inside of it is the most difficult part of learning how to do this. The only way this is even possible in the first place is to be aware of it's existence and then to be able to recognize it as it actually happening. That takes some doing and is a skill that you need to develop over time but....the more you practice at it....the better you get in doing it. About the time you start getting closer to doing it more often than not....is about the time you begin to notice that you don't need to do it as often because it actually starts to pay off because it is working.
But if you back up and go all the way back to when you are a child and this was happening even more so back then along with the effect that has on you....those feelings and emotions of hurt, frustration, fear and anger have already engrained themselves into any number of defense strategies and patterns that you are not even aware of as you get older. It's definitely the boiling frog effect and it is very difficult to see this until you really stop and think about this going back to the days when you were a child since those events and that time in your life seems somehow disconnected to anything that is happening to you now......
Except......you would be wrong in that assumption especially if you have ADHD:)
J
Thank you everyone, Hopeful heart, Jay, etc.
Submitted by dedelight4 on
A huge thank you to those who posted. Hopeful heart, I read you post, and know myself how TIRING living with undertreated ADHD can be. (or totally untreated) I too, am worn out, and I've asked myself many times, "When is it going to be MY TURN"? That question is something I don't think my husband ever thinks about. When he DOES, it seems like he combines ME with HIM. That whatever HE WANTS..........is going to be exactly what I WANT. But, that isn't so. He does care about my well being, but in small doses, and in short periods of time. He has "too much to do". (is a phrase I hear EVERY DAY) He does help me out now, (often makes more of a mess cleaning up, than the original mess was in the first place) which I thank him for, but then I end up cleaning up the "clean up". I want to be there for him, but it doesn't seem like there's anything I can do any more. I've learned a better way to talk to him, and react to him, which I think has helped.
My body is so tired, and worn out. Living in constant body pain is exhausting, and the mental, psychological and physical aspects of his ADHD are exhausting as well. Like when he leaves a room with all of us in it........................everyone lets out a huge ( WHEW). It's a human tornado. We are all hard workers and probably do more than the average person does, but I can no longer keep up that pace.
Jay is a wonderful guy, and I love reading his posts. (Hi, Jay) I wish my husband could adapt some of your insights and useful things you've learned from experience. He would LOVE ho eloquently you write, since he's a "brainiac" LOL He has a PhD in music education, and was always a straight A student in school (unusual for an ADHD person I think)
It's also wonderful that with Jay and c ur self on here. These are guys that are well grounded and have wisdom and insight. Plus, I love reading the posts from the ones who have spent many years involved with someone with ADHD. There's many women on here who have done just that, including hopefulheart and myself.
Thank You Dede
Submitted by kellyj on
That means a lot:) I'm far from being out of the woods completely...but I'm getting there. It's a process and it takes time.
J
Jay, you said something important, can you elaborate?
Submitted by dedelight4 on
"From everything I've come to learn about a person who suffers from a personality/character disorder.....something is missing completely in the process. They are only operating on a slice of the pie at all times but they do not realize this. How can you know that you are missing what you don't have? (or are even aware that exists if you have never had it or know what it is ?)"
Do you think there is a way for the person with this type of disorder to LEARN this? (without it being Pavlovian) or do you think it's something some of them may not HAVE, and may never get? (The sympathy, empathy part of the severe ADHD person. Not a "learned" empathy, but a true heartfelt empathy without it feeding their Narcissistic Supply)
I have seen empathy in my husband at times, but many times, he'll do something to "help" the person which gives him a Narcissistic rush, or pat on the back. Then he'll tell everyone how he did "such and such", to gain even further pats on the back. So, instead of the original hurt person getting what THEY need, he uses that to garner something for himself as well. Does that make sense?
You hit the nail on the head
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
You hit the nail on the head with the word "learned". My husband is an excellent student and has learned many appropriate behaviors. His father taught him how to be a hard worker and a gentleman. His mother taught him to pick up after himself. I taught him how a husband is supposed to treat a wife. On paper he Is now the perfect husband. However, if you know the whole story, you realize that there is a huge emotional void in my husband. If a new situation arises that requires an emotional connection in order to give an appropriate response, he can't do it. He can't do it unless he's been taught.
So there is my dilemma. Should I be grateful and content to spend the rest of my life with a teachable robot? Or should I move on in hopes of having a real, emotional relationship with someone else in the future.
When I started this thread I was upset that my husband had told me that he would never have an emotional connection with me. Now I understand that he was trying to set me free because he knew he couldn't give me what I desperately wanted, an emotional connection with another human being.
"Learned" and emotional "void"
Submitted by dedelight4 on
Wow, Helpful, thank you for again, some much needed input. I totally get what you are saying, because my husband also seems to not have that "emotional SOMETHING" that the rest of us have. Only he doesn't KNOW he doesn't have it. (at least I don't THINK he does) If he does know it, he doesn't talk about it or seem to show it like others.
I've also had the same thought as you."Should I be grateful and content to spend the rest of my life with a teachable robot? Or should I move on in hopes of having a real, emotional relationship with someone else in the future." But, then, I know that I wouldn't try to ever have another love relationship in my life ever. I couldn't go through any more. And, I would even be afraid that I'm damaged now, and I wouldn't necessarily be "normal" or good for someone else, unless I had tons of therapy. I DO love my husband, very much, and THAT has held me to him all this time. I would like to know if he is happy with ME, or is he just staying with me because he feels "obligated" to? another question.
Is It ADHD or a Charactor Disorder?
Submitted by kellyj on
That should be the question you should be asking? Alluding to what you were asking before and can it change or can they learn? You need to know the answer to this question first before you can say yes or no. If all that you are seeing is ADHD, the answer is yes....it's not for the same reason or coming from the same source (or mechanism in the brain). If it's a character disorder on top of ADHD (or just by itself)...I would say, don't count on it. Far less likely than it going the other way.
But here's a very important aspect to this and more to muddy up the water. A character disorder like Narcissism....is not just a description or adjective describing a certain behavior. A person can behave like a Narcissist at times and not have a character disorder in a pathological way. That's the key word here in making this distinction. Pathology is a pattern of behavior that is consistent and unchanging to the point that it becomes so predictable that you can you can count on it...like money in the bank. (as I was trying to describe about my father for example). The behavior is just the symptom of what is going on inside (what you don't see). That's why trying to diagnose someone by the symptoms alone becomes problematic at best.
I'll make an attempt to try and describe (in my own words and untrained, unprofessional understanding) of what I see in the difference between ADHD and a character disorder. I'm hoping that if I can do this....it might give you some hope? That's because ADHD is one of the most changeable disorders you can have if you just learn how to do it and get help in doing it at first. It's only difficult when you don't know how and don't know what to do about it. That's not saying that it all goes away completely...but the problematic parts are really the only ones you have to worried about....the good parts are kind of a no brainer. lol
First....describing myself here to start....I would say that one of my outstanding qualities that would be hard not to notice about me is that I am rather random and inconsistent looking at it from the outside. In certain areas.....this is really where the problems I have get amplified. Herding a cat would be a good description here. I see this as what is most predictable about me. I have patterns of behavior too and some might fall into a more pathological sense...but with me it's more cyclical than pathological. At any given time.....you may never know exactly what you will get.....including me! lol What I have discovered is that this is a combination of things that are ever changing and being reshuffled all the time.
When I'm stressed or my anxiety level is peaked and I get overwhelmed...it can be a combination of not getting enough sleep, not haven eaten or I'm physically drained and then adding in any emotional conflicts with other people or about problems I'm having.....and then add in my emotional state and my ability to manage all of these things once it hits a certain point and I get overwhelmed. Once this happens....I go into self protection mode. When that happens.....I would say in general sense.....I will behave like a Narcissist since I'm not too worried about anyone else at that time and am mostly focused on getting myself back to normal and not being overwhelmed.
Under the same set of circumstances externally....another day might be different and I breeze right on through without a hitch and am able to deal with everything and not go into self protection mode. If you want to use Narcissism and self protection mode interchangeably in this case....that would be a fair thing to do since my capacity for empathy is greatly compromised but.....if I realize this and see what is happening....I can pull myself back out it and still have enough empathy and compassion to stop myself from behaving in a way that I might not otherwise be like during this time. I have some control of this and awareness is all that I need to catch myself from letting things go too crazy....or irrational in how I appear? If that makes sense. As I described above.....I learned to be empathetic because that was what was demanded of me at all times. I have no problem putting myself into other people shoes and imagine how they would feel if it were me standing there in the same room with me. That's part of being able to recognize this in the first place.....seeing that my behavior for what ever reason.....would not be acceptable to ME if it were me sitting there and experiencing ME in the same way. If I can catch myself and see this in the moment......I can not be this way and do something about it.
But when I get to a point of frustration or am not seeing myself very well at times....or...it really is the other person who is not responding well in their own right....is acting in an unacceptable way towards me.....I have a tendency to flip the switch in my completely aware and cognitive thinking to "Fuck it" mode. This is a net result of going up against someone like my father who was relentless and unchanging no matter what you do....right or wrong. When I go into "Fuck it" mode.....I am very predictable and can see myself clearly in those moments. This is where I have been called an asshole and there is no arguing this label....it's exactly what I am like but it is usually tied directly to something that is very clear and easy to understand. It's part of being stubborn and resisting. Does this look like a Narcissist? You bet...and then some! lol I have come to learn that this is definitely associated with my triggers....and my triggers are directly related to being confronted with a Narcissist or behavior that feels this way to me. It's more of a tit for tat response when I perceive someone is responding unfairly or irrationally and I have given them plenty of fair warning ahead of time to let them know how they are behaving is unacceptable and is causing me distress. Getting that thrown back in my face will surely trip this trigger in me and it's not a good time to try and get me to listen or do anything you want from me. It's that "I'm not budging until you modify your behavior first." This is very intentional in one respect even if it's a pattern that I don't always see in the very instant that it happens. I come down very quickly off this and do not hold a grudge for very long once I have time to cool down and think things through. The best thing for me to do I have found is nothing and just this pass until I have a chance for the rest me and my rational thoughts to catch up and coalesce into more rational thinking and behavior. lol
This is all part of the executive function process especially the control of this and the delays that cause me to act in ways that I would not normally be like. I feel awful afterwards when things catch up and I see how behaved and if someone points this out to me shortly after the fact....I have no trouble seeing it or being able to see the error in my ways and apologizing for it. The on going consistent part of this is that this keeps repeating itself over time because the delay or executive function control issues are always there. The answer has been to learn how to control this better to change it or stop it in tracks to prevent it from happening again. It has less to do with my capacity for empathy or not having the ability to work through this on an emotional and logical level and more of a conscious acting out or simply needing a few moments (or sometime longer) just to process and come to a reasonable, rational conclusion weighing in all these things and having time to think about it........which I am mostly able to do...most of the time. lol
So....when you see Narcissism in me.....it can be for a variety of reasons including being focused on myself and just trying to manage the moment and bet past it. It has less to do with a pathogical pattern of behavior that is ever consistent and unwavering without the ability to be an way else.
In fact.....push the red button in my Pigeon cage....and you are likely to get me doing just the opposite of pecking since....I'm probably pissed off for being relegated to a cage and feeling someone is trying to manipulate me or put me into a corner and no where to go. Passive aggressive in these moments? If you remember me being raised by a Narcissist.....it is sending a pretty clear message that your not going to play ball with someone who just won't play fair or always seems to bend the rules to their favor no matter how hard you try to be reasonable and fair on your part. In it's very essence.....it's an outward or passive defiant act of refusal. That may look very self serving and like Narcissism because it is....but it's exactly what I just said.... and that's where it comes from in me.
It's also why I have found other ways to deal with these emotions and feelings that are not only more productive.....it serves me better than cutting my nose just to spite my face and the other person I'm trying to spite as a response to them. Learning to just say no and give a reasonable reason why whether the other person likes it or not is much better approach and it clearly communicates the "why" and "how" I feel at the same time. But if you think about the conditioned response....it's from predicting what I know will be the result of trying to say or do anything and never getting anything but it thrown back in your face. If you want to piss me off as fast as possible.....this is the best way to do it. I'm working on this and not doing anything instead of just reacting to this sub conscious conditioned response. This has changed for sure and I no longer behave this way even when I feel it happening with few exceptions any more. The intensity of the feeling I get from these moments also has diminished to a level that is not much more than a annoying inconvenience. Another side benefit of doing the work to correct this (annoyance lol).
If the person on the other side of this communication does not have the ability to process this in the same way ( is missing some pieces of the pie in their ability to do this) and arrive at a reasonable conclusion themselves and tries to argue "why" it is that I should or should not feel the way I do if that is the case......that ain't my problem. Any more energy I put into it is just a waste of time as long as I'm being reasonable and rational myself and I know I am considering them and well as myself at the same time.
For a person who is has a real character disorder....I think the defining line is when a person loses or is without this ability or capacity and is operating without the same ability to do what I just said. I think that might be the clinical defining line between a "disorder" and moments or random times when you lose the ability to do this but are not this was 24/7. It's also why they are not going to learn, adapt, or change.
Quoting my T here again.....he said "with ADHD something might be broken it's true....but there are many things you can do to work around it. The part is there....it's just not working as well as it should." That incudes being able to see it, learn to do things differently and make changes to it.
I think with a personality disorder....they are working as if the part is not even there or completely missing or disconnected entirely most if not all of the time. That's how it feels like for me....and what is appears like when I have been confronted with the alternative.
I hope that helps clarify this a little better?
PS.....In my lifetime of experience with my father (a red flag in my mind for Narcissism).....I rarely heard him admit wrong doing for anything (like maybe only a handful of times ever)....but never (literally) did I ever here him say he was sorry for anything or hear the words "I'm sorry" come out of his mouth. Not even once. That's just bizarre in my mind but it's absolutely true. Just throwing that out there as rather easy one not to notice. I can tell you.....Im sorry used to be the first thing I would say as a default for everything even if it wasn't my fault. The net result of being on the other side of this.
I'll Try Dede
Submitted by kellyj on
Does this make sense? No!!! But I know what you are trying to say...I think? What I know about a bonifide Narc I know from my personal experience growing up with my father. It did not make sense to me either...that's why I said no. lol It took me countless sessions with my T with him explaining this to me countless times before it finally sunk in. The only reason he did this at all because I was stuck trying to figure out why I had this never ending unresolved feeling that I could not explain...but I knew it when I saw it since....and I saw it all the time when I was growing up. But what I really knew and what I was quite aware of was the Narcissistic "Slap Down". That's my own made up word for the experience when you get blind sided and kicked in the head in moments that are hard to forget....hence....sitting in my T's office with him trying to get me to see or explain these moments that were not only hurtful, but ones that were so out of the realm of anything that I could understand or wrap my head around that they were staying with and I just couldn't move past them or get them out of my head. For that reason....I'm not sure I could do this for you or anyone else in the way my T did since it took repeated analogies and explanations before it finally hit me and the light bulb went on. This was a difficult moment to face but it did resolve my feelings and put them to rest. It explained why I felt the way I did for so long. What was missing was my father's ability to actually show love since....that ability was completely missing. You know love when you feel it or see it if you have this capacity yourself. When you get something other than love when the moment or situation calls for it or when you are getting something that doesn't seem to fit instead you go "huh? That was weird?"
I had lots of "that was weird?" moments when I was growing up. Back to my T getting me to see exactly why that was. It hits you hard when it finally sinks in. "Ouch!! You mean, what I thought I was getting was love all that time was some strange manufactured facsimile instead?" An interesting by-product of this for me or (the other person)....is that because of the needs for a Narc's demands from you....one of them is unlimited understanding and empathy (for them or course) in all situations. You are trained in a sense....to always think of them first and if you don't.....look out....."slap down". They'll let you know if you aren't doing your job in no uncertain terms.....you can count of that.!!! lol They are extremely predictable and you can count of them to do exactly what they do no matter how different the circumstance are that confront them. If you understand them....they are extremely easy to manipulate because of this....as smart and all important as they think they are in that regard. When you push the button that turns the red light on in the Pigeon cage.....they'll peck like crazy to get the grain to fall down the chute into the hopper for them to eat. lol (the Pavlovian operant conditioning you were referring too lol )
So to get to your question? I asked this same question of my T a number of times and finally got this answer from him.
I said "well... what if you could force them to see themselves literally at gun point at the fear of death. How about then?"
He said " I worked with (at times) folks in the prison population and the one common thing that you seem to find in prison are a lot of folks who are Narcissists and are completely innocent and did not do what they are in Prison for. Ask them....they will always tell you that they didn't do it and they are completely innocent of wrong doing."
I said..." Hmmm.....I get what you are saying. But what about gun point and death like I was saying?"
He said " In the moment or for brief periods of times....Narcs can display empathy or compassion if called up in those "wake up call" moments. But it doesn't last. In a relatively short period of time....they go back to being exactly like they were before."
I'm paraphrasing now in the conclusion to this conversation as I understand this now. From what he was saying to me....in these more extreme moments of need, pain or emotional upheaval.....a Narc will "connect up" because of this extraordinary burst of emotional pain that causes this out of the norm ability to have the capacity for genuine reciprocity in this way....but that is only due to an extraordinary event like this. Unfortunately....it doesn't last. At least this is what my T explained to me and I think he was right. I saw glimpses of these moments with my father that were part of my confusion. I do believe it was real and genuine but it also disappeared just as quickly as it appeared. Very confusing and troubling indeed.
So to answer your question is it possible? Is it real or is it Memorex? So I guess based on what my T was saying and my own experience with this...the answer is Yes and No.
Frustrating.....isn't it?
Based on what I was saying about the predictable aspect of this.....it's just easier to assume that most of the time....it not real and it's for the reasons that you were speculating.
A word of warning to anyone reading just my experience with this.....a lot of things can look like Narcissism including ADHD. It's it's own animal and it's a difficult and slippery thing to try and explain something that you just have to be there to try and know what that is really like for sure. I know it from experience and what it feels like when I'm confronted by one. Without that in my back pocket....you'd really need to have some training and then some experience to be able to sort this out for yourself. The only reason I spent this much time and effort trying to get the knowledge part under my belt was to resolve my experience and undo a lot misdirected information and bad advise and lessons that were handed to me by someone of this order (rather disorder) and put it to rest once and for all and explain what I just could never explain otherwise.
J
I'm so glad that this thread
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
I'm so glad that this thread helped someone else. It sure helped me to get all of this off my chest and get supportive feedback from others!!
Sometimes.....
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
Sometimes an ADHD person is so caught up with anxiety issues, it interferes with awareness of how others are feeling.