"His tantrums are killing me!" This may seem dramatic but I suspect this group may understand. Im a newlywed of nearly 3 months. I knew something was off during our 2 years of dating. I racked my brain, I read, I researched... I called in his mother to help with some of the situations ( big mistake, but I still hold on to the fact that I had no other option at the time). The issues weren't completely clear. He was over his head with a failing business, a business that his family, including his brother ran together. His brother, unfortunately and suddenly, passed soon after opening the business. So obviously there was some con fusion about his actions. I thought grief, stress, anxiety etc. u till a month after our wedding (which was a total shit show) I finally found it... "My ADHD husband is driving me crazy". I read and read and read and the stories were so familiar. It really hit the nail on the head.
So so here we are, newly wed. Absolutely no intimacy, maybe once since the wedding and once in probably 3-4 months before the wedding. (Yes! Red Flags) I find it so hard to explain, but the tantrums and the "opposite" or " difficult, stubborn, backwards behavior are exhausting. I feel like I'm on his runaway train and the flames are getting bigger the faster we go. I am supposed to just be silent, and not mention that he is ruining us financially. I'm just supposed to be along for the ride silently, never speaking up about the danger ahead and God forbid I speak up about how these things are affecting me.
Well I came here to discuss tantrums... I just can't take it. I recently made him leave the house. He's so out of control, insulting me, terrorizing me, screaming at me, slamming doors, harassing me, following me around combining stories and really just not making any sense. I used to leave, but honestly I got pretty sick and tired of getting up out of bed and leaving my own home on cold, snowy nights. F that! Before that I just tried to go out the front door, he followed, or to the bedroom, he followed. I feel that it's honestly abusive. He scoffs at the accusation and big surprise, so does his mother. She suggested th
Now this site is killing me.
Submitted by honeyblonde on
Now this site is killing me. I can't get my entire message to post without error.
Posting difficulties
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
Honeyblonde,
As long as you are signed into the forum, you can click on the subject line of your post, and at the top you will see a view tab and an edit tab. You can add to, or correct, or adjust what you have posted by clicking on that edit tab. Maybe that will help you?
Liz
Thanks Liz,
Submitted by honeyblonde on
Thanks Liz,
I think it's the length of my post. I'm having trouble copying and pasting to post the entire message. Or the issue is that I'm on my iPad, instead of a laptop.
I gave up for now, I'll try on my lap top later.
Thank you
Ok, so to continue,
Submitted by honeyblonde on
Ok, so to continue,
she suggested I had PMS. The tantrums can last for hours. Like, 5,6,7 hours, sometimes depending on my responses but often times no matter what approach I take, he can find something to drudge up to provoke me.ive tried many ways to cope. Initially, I cried. I was hurt and confused. I tried being calming and working calmly through the issues and misinformation, and I've screamed and fought back out of frustration and anger, but honestly, none really work. Mostly, I just try to stop it. I say stop, I cry stop, I yell stop. We did at some point agree on a boundary that he has for the most part respected. This is the bedroom. He can't come in the bedroom when I retreat there. I was having major panic issues when I couldn't get away and feel "safe". He still stands outside the door and continues but I at least can sit calmly in my bed and not feel the intimidation of his body language. He typically isn't violent, but his body language suggests otherwise. He's not huge, but I'm small and I have been in abusive relationships. I recognize the signs.
Basically the tantrums are
Submitted by honeyblonde on
Basically the tantrums are really bad. They are typical. He has started seeing a therapist but I'm not sure it's helping. Since the wedding I've been very sick. I ended up with double pneumonia. It was untreated for several weeks as I thought I had the flu. My illness only angered him more. For some reason he terrorized me more. So I'm depressed. I feel isolated and my body is weak. Obviously he didn't give me pneumonia, but I know my body well enough. The stress wore me down. I couldn't sleep. I feel like I haven't rested in months. I can't take the flippant unfair insults or the mocking or the rage. I can't be in a relationship where I don't know the mood of my partner, who is really never a partner to me. Who can live in a household like that? I certainly wouldn't bring a child into this home. I don't want to be here. Maybe some women can take it and let it roll off their shoulder better than me, but I can't. It's damaging my spirit and sucking my joy. So I chose myself, and made him leave. He says I kicked him out. Another disagreement that we can go back and forth about for an infinite amount of time. I would have stayed forever. I would have worked through the dirty laundry or receipts in the washer and clothes in the kitchen, but I can't be expected to just sit back and let him run my life into the ground without speaking up. Why would anyone do that? Or be expected to? I have read these posts from women who are just waiting until their children are old enough or they make enough money to support themselves. The thing is that I was in a dead end abusive neglectful relationship for 12 years. I won't do it again. Is there hope with medication? Is there hope with therapy? Are there any real stories of a happy ending? I feel like once the lines are crossed a person can't learn to redraw them. He does abuse me emotionally and verbally. Just because he has an issue doesn't make the outcome any different. If he was hitting me everyone would say run. This site seems to offer hope, but realistically it's just not about finances and bad habits, it's about damaging words and actions. No birthdays for me, no christmas, not surprise trips or gifts, or anything that takes a moment of effort. As women we read the memes all the time, " don't make someone a priority when you r just an option". Is my situation any different just because he "can't help it"?
Been there HoneyBlonde...
Submitted by c ur self on
Suggestion: You need to get your butts to a good counselor yesterday!....What he is doing is abuse, and it will not stop without intervention...
C
Thank you for responding. I
Submitted by honeyblonde on
Thank you for responding. I have tried to stay out of the therapy, as to give him an opportunity to do something without me behind him " nagging and correcting" the misinformation. Although it took over a year of suggestions, giving him options, googling for him, and involving his mother, asking for help. It took the mess of a wedding and a depressed new bride crying nearly every morning and night to get an appt made. At this point I need my own therapist... And the cycle continues as we can't afford to both be in therapy together or separate. He was insured but apparently stopped paying the monthly payment a few months ago. I was waiting till the wedding to be added to his plan, and there is no plan. Our marriage is a sham, I feel like I committed under duress.
I want to run, get an annulment and never look back, then I for a moment Get reminded that he isn't a monster, he's anxious, careless, hyper and out of control, riddled with conflict and self esteem issues... And doesn't want to be like this. But isn't that what every battered woman says? " he doesn't mean to do it". I guess I should be clear, he doesn't hit me or abuse me physically and hasn't cheated on me to my knowledge. He just harasses me... Almost non stop.
I don't expect a response c ur self, I'm just learning that this forum helps me spill my feelings and sort out my thoughts.
Well I came here to discuss tantrums... I just can't take it. I
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
<<<
Well I came here to discuss tantrums... I just can't take it. I recently made him leave the house. He's so out of control, insulting me, terrorizing me, screaming at me, slamming doors, harassing me, following me around combining stories and really just not making any sense. I used to leave, but honestly I got pretty sick and tired of getting up out of bed and leaving my own home on cold, snowy nights. F that! Before that I just tried to go out the front door, he followed, or to the bedroom, he followed. I feel that it's honestly abusive. He scoffs at the accusation and big surprise, so does his mother. She suggested
>>>
Get out. Seriously. It will only get worse, much worse. I have been married for over 30 years. It gets much worse. No one warned me.
What you've described is much of what I experienced early in our marriage. Tantrums, following me around, standing over me while "going on and on" ...standing outside the door going "on and on".
Then he became even worse where he wouldn't respect the boundary of a locked door. He began forcing the doors.
Then in more recent years, I would leave for a couple of days. I'd get in my car to escape. He began blocking my car. Then his therapist told him he wasn't allowed to do that. (the only reason his therapist found out is because H "mistakenly" told him thinking that the T would "understand." Nope, the T told him to never do that again. Since then, H hadn't told his T much about his bad actions because H doesn't want to be told that he's wrong.
Lately, it's escalated to threats...threats that he has carried out. Once when I was gone and I refused to come back while he was having a scary tantrum, he went into my closet, removed over 3/4 of my clothes and shoes (and my jewelry box) and threw the contents into his truck and then dumped them into some unknown trash can (he's actually thrown out my clothes twice, and he's ruined some of my clothes another time. He's also thrown my phone into the toilet (that was when I threatened to call the police).
I recently met a woman who has been married for nearly 25 years. She's filed for divorce. Her H has done many of the same things, including throwing out her clothes. Her H did it while she was visiting her dying parent and her H was mad that she wasn't coming home as soon as her H wanted her to come home.
The tantrums never end, they only get worse, much worse.
And if alcohol or other controlled meds get involved, things can get much worse.
I can't get out because H threatens to destroy my business if I were to leave him.
One of my friends lost her childhood friend to domestic violence last week. The childhood friend had filed for divorce a month ago. Her husband was outraged and he killed her and himself. Their young children were in the home but not hurt.
Get out before your H turns to violence.
What a mess...
Submitted by honeyblonde on
What a mess...
Who knew ADHD had these effects?
I've been worried about the process of medications. And I'm struggling with the feeling of "not my problem". The whole not my circus, not my monkeys idea. Except I married him, so it is sort of my circus now, although really under false promises and behind smoke and mirrors. I know I can get out now unscathed for the most part, but then my heavy heart fills with guilt and the possibility of hope. Then I think, this is exactly what I did for the last decade... Give everything, and ended up walking away with nothing except for a seriously damaged self esteem.
I'm almost 37 years old. I wanted nothing more than to have a family and always hoped to have a child. I wasn't desperate when we met, I was happy and content. Meeting him was a nice surprise to my cynical side. The trick is the hyper focus when we met... It was honestly overwhelming at times, but i always said. I'd rather have him close then not answering my calls or Mia for hours. Then when things go south, you are already involved with so many good memories and before you know it, you are confused, damaged, feeling guilty, responsible and hurting. And now I have come to realize that my needs are not even on his radar. For a year or so I chalked it up to "being a man" but no one deserves to feel like this, particularly a new bride. And maybe I'm just feeling sorry for myself but also my birthday is soon then Christmas. I never really believed in marriage, and I took a risk. Even changed my name. What a crock.
You do NOT want to expose children to this.
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
My kids escaped "some" of H's craziness because for many years he worked long hours and was exercise crazy and worked-out at the gym a LOT. However, they were still affected. I protected them as much as I could, whisking them away in my car when H would begin his tantrums, but sometimes that was impossible, (i.e. late at night on a school night).
Also, he was "less bad" when they were younger, getting worse when they were in high school when they were gone a lot anyway. He got horribly bad once they were away at college because, the kids weren't around to defend me anymore. Yes, once the kids were around middle-school age, they would defend me when H would make some outrageous claim that I had said/done something that I hadn't. Or, H would deny saying something bad, and the kids would say, "yes, dad, you did say/do that"...or "No dad, mom didn't say that, she said, XXXXX". But once they were away at school, I lost that back up and H got worse. And, he blamed me for "turning the kids against him," even tho our kids, his therapist, and I repeatedly told him that his kids' opinions of him were based on what they saw.
Get out. Get yourself in a good situation and if you can, adopt.
And thank you overwhelmedwife
Submitted by honeyblonde on
And thank you overwhelmedwife. This does seem to help me. Plus this is the 3rd night he's been gone. I feel calm and somewhat collected. I'm not sure of how far my H wud take it as far as being hateful and malicious, although the people surprise us... I just really don't have faith that he will do the work, or that he can restart. and how can I risk the rest of my life just waiting on him to get it. Or to even get serious? I guess I'll see what happens with the therapist. I feel concerned now, that I'm going to get frustrated at her. I'm just so tired of defending myself and explaining myself. I'm already doing it constantly in my own head. Then to him for hours at a time, and now to a therapist. Fingers crossed she can help.
Ur stories really have helped me!
If you had asked me....
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
If you had asked me if my H could do what he's done when we had only been married for about 10 years, I would have strongly thought that H could not do some of the things that he has done.
There was a time when we could entertain or go to friends' homes for occasions. Not anymore. Not in the last 12 years of a 35 year relationship. Now, it's unpredictable what he might say or do. There were 2 occasions that H behaved inappropriately at others' homes during the first 10 years, but those were rare enough that we still could be social. Now, it's impossible to predict what he might do or say. I can't even plan a vacation with him anymore. The last few vacations I've taken have been with our kids and without H. I couldn't even have him come to my parents' funerals because I couldn't trust how he'd behave. This was a huge change from before. That would not have been a concern 20 years ago.
Does your H drink? My H RARELY ever drank (at all!!!) during our first 20+ years together. Then he started having a couple of glasses of wine at night, which was fine. But what I didn't know was that he was secretly ALSO drinking hard liquor late at night to "get to sleep". He became addicted. His anger and instability got MUCH worse. At first, I had no idea why. I thought he was getting Alzheimers. When I first realized, he denied that he had a problem, but then after about 2 years, he admitted it. He still struggles with alcohol, but mismanages his meds as another "fix".
BTW....keep in mind that ADHD is often just ONE aspect of a person's mental instability. Often, there are other issues, and from what you've described, your H has at least one other serious issue....maybe a personality disorder, maybe something else.
I'm just so overwhelmed too.
Submitted by honeyblonde on
I'm just so overwhelmed too. I saw so many red flags, I asked for help, I begged him to get help but the wedding was in motion. I was told thing would happen, but when they continued to be put off, I was the bad guy and everything was my problem. The problems became that I was depressed, or I was a terrible person who's " thought I was better than everyone else" or I think I'm a dr, or some other insult to invalidate my feelings. More excuses for his behavior and more blame shifting to me.
We have had problems socializing. Most every social event EXCEPT when it's something he's interested in has been ruined. I've been shamed, embarrassed, humiliated, basically he pouts, acts nervous and ready to go immediately, doesn't involve himself in the group and then I'm on pins and needles and we just leave. Then, he's fine. He's got his "way" and he's happy as a clam and doesn't understand why I'm upset or disappointed. I truly believe he doesn't have the capability to consider me in any way, even when I've explained it, it's foreign to him. He's very child like. I'm wondering if this isn't similar to psychopathic behavior. There is a sense of attempting to manipulate me, there are many of the same feelings involved just from a different angle. After his most recent 7 hour tantrum, when I finally called it, and made him leave he went through many emotions, including tears. But I actually called him out and accused him of faking the tears. It was his last attempt to manipulate the situation to get what he wanted. I felt bad to accuse him of that but if I don't start trusting my instincts I'm dead meat. My future is bleak.
Thank u for the info and your story. There is some self medicating involved. It's been an issue for quite awhile and also has become an issue with job hunting, and we have financial issues as well, so it's all tied together. A domino effect of bull. He's still not home. And I actually laughed a little yesterday. I'm just not sure where to go from here. It's the holidays. I know that where he's staying he's not helping himself, probably only more "self medicating". If he comes home then I'm not ok. If he's not home he's not getting anywhere and of course he's not helping me with bills. Because for obvious reasons he thinks that bills are day by day, and if u don't open them they don't matter and if he isn't living here for a week, he's not responsible for them for the month.
I can only imagine the confusion, the damage and the stories after being married for 30 years. I have so much, in only 2 years.
Does anyone have a remedy? Or a happy ending?
Experience with ODD & ADHD in adults... ?
Submitted by honeyblonde on
ive been reading so much, books and online articles and the one thing that stuck out was the addition to ADHD in Oppositional Defiant Disorder. I've always said, he does the "opposite" of everything. Almost like dyslexic behavior. He somehow goes out of his way to do the opposite. Many times I'm just so confused by the nonsense of the actions. I'm always asking why did you do that? How does that make sense? We have to walk through the steps of completing tasks so that we come to the sensible outcome and find a solution. Generally, if a task is at hand, and it's left up to him, without any comments from me, it just gets ignored. Then I gently bring it up, suggest options, try to sort through the steps and hope they make sense... Then more suggestions, then more and more. Yes, I'm frustrated at this point. Then I think we come to an understanding of what needs to happen to complete a task and find a solution to a problem. Then low and behold, he does the opposite. He finds his own "way". The Issue is not only does his way, typically not solve the issue, it causes more issues for us to deal with and obviously more frustration and conflict. I can't help but be frustrated. Not only did he ignore and procrastinate and avoid the issue, I then took the time to do the research on what steps we need to take. I patiently waited for him to make the effort, then I just made the decision of what needs to happen, then when he finally does something, it's the opposite of everything I said to do. Of course, then I'm controlling, and never satisfied and don't recognize that he's trying.
From the information available to me, and just my general life experience of living with him, my best guess is that he is ADHD with ODD. Maybe this is the combo we need to focus on. Well, plus the addictive behavior of self medicating. Although at this point I think it's just habitual and again, part of the ODD considering I've given ultimatums regarding the self medicating.
I know I have all the information I need and the advice I've been given here is really where the outcome is headed, but I guess I need to be satisfied that I've done my research and thought through every option. It seems the " now and not now" generalization of the mind of a ADHD H even goes as far as if he's not aloud in the house, he's trying because he's inconvenienced. The not now happens when he's back home and I'm not nagging. It all goes back to his normal because he's where he wants to be. I'm not sure that there is any room for learning to continue the good behavior when he isn't inconvenienced.
Again, I'm just thinking out loud. It seems to be helping me sort through the confusion. I wish I could have documented with pictures through the past 2 years. It seems to be a classic case with obvious signs... If you knew what you were looking for. I didn't. I was on the wrong track. Searching for anxiety, rage, and grief.
Anyone with any ODD experience related to ADHD please feel free to share experiences. Everything I've found online is related to children, not adults.
ADHD husband...ODD and other things
Submitted by dedelight4 on
Honeyblonde, my husband does many of the same things. He doesn't have the tantrums your husband does, which I'm glad, but he does many OTHER things that have been very hurtful to me and our family. I've often believed he also had Oppositional Defiant Disorder, because so many times he had to do just he OPPOSITE of whatever was required of him, and it was so confusing. We were married 23 years before he was diagnosed with ADHD, and another 10 years on top of that he's been on medication but no behavior therapy. Our marriage has not gotten better, it's gotten much worse, and now he tells me he's always "been in love" with his old college girlfriend. He's had one affair, and then tells me this. There's been the breaking things, the endless projects after projects that never get finished, the weird and unreasonable behavior, the not getting along with family or friends, strange eating habits, NEVER discussing what we can do to make things better, his constant focus on himself and what HE does, with much more I could list. But, it's added up to years and years of frustration to where now it seems we are totally done. 32 years (35 all together) of my life, are seemingly down the drain, with my self esteem and physical self almost beyond repair. It's been SO HARD. I wish I could tell you it gets better, but unless THEY want themselves to get better, IT DOESN'T.
Thank you for your response!
Submitted by honeyblonde on
Thank you for your response! I guess that does answer my question. Your H has been medicated. I have been worried about dealing with the process of finding the right medication, just to have issues with it as well as it not really working. And more time down the drain. I'm thankful that someone else has experienced this confusion. I guess there really is no more for me to do. He's not in the home. I considered bringing him back in to get through the holidays and possibly he would be in a better place to work on some of these issues. Maybe after seeing the therapist together. I don't think he's going to do anything. He has had time. He's been gently nudged. I've begged. I've asked for help from his family. We are going nowhere. He still holds firm in blaming me.
Im at a loss right now, but I guess I should be thankful it's only gotten this far, and there are no children involved.
It's hard to choose ME
Submitted by honeyblonde on
its just so hard to choose myself in this situation. It's not in my nature to put myself first... Or to demand that I be put first. I see now, and I've seen it for awhile, if I don't I'll never be treated fairly, respected, or have any of my needs met. I take blame for not stopping this earlier. I take blame for being blind to the red flags when I saw them. But I know if I don't choose myself, he never will. He will continue to take from me, mentally, financially, emotionally, and physically. I just have to accept it.
Im so sorry for all of you that have children or have been fighting this battle your whole lives. I can't imagine it. I blamed it on the differences of men and women. Men being generally selfish and women being generally giving and nurturing. It's just terrible that in this day and age women can't get a little more respect than being completely depleted of all,joy, then just thrown away for a shiny new woman without the damage of a man.
Im at a loss from disappointment and hopelessness.
Honeyblonde,
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
Honeyblonde,
How old are you? I see your are a newlywed. I skimmed up the thread, but didn't se if you had already mentioned it.
For a really long time, I had thought I was choosing me. I wanted my marriage to work. In our golden years, I wanted to be hand in hand with spouse, walking down the beach somewhere. I wanted to make my marriage work. I did not really have anyone sit me down and say," Liz, quit doing all the "save the marriage stuff" until you have the other half of the marriage working towards that same goal." It just does not work well if only one side takes all the blame, all the responsibility and does all the reading, listening, searching for answers.
I really have NO CLUE what would have happened if I had the wisdom to say, "This is not working for me. If you want it to work for us, WE better do something." Blech. My self esteem was not in a good place, and I assumed all blame and responsibility for our relationship difficulties.
I shouldn't have done that.
Well, can't change the past, but I can make a different today and tomorrow.
I also wonder what would have happened if I had not badgered my spouse into getting an ADHD diagnosis? Would he have gone to find help if he had been left to his own devises? IF he had gone and said, "Something is not right. I do not know what it is. Can you help me?" Nope, I more or less sent him to get "An ADHD diagnosis." And he got one. Who knows what would have happened if they were not just honed in on an already-formed conclusion?
I have been very guilty of labeling issues, and then searching for an answer based on that label.
Hmm. ' What is wrong with this marriage' is a whole different question than "Why can't I get this marriage thing right?"
I am weary from spending a life time trying to fix things - including myself. Now, I am just trying to enjoy Liz, and embrace her as she is - warts and all. I do take time to deal with character defects, if and when I get convicted - but only if that conviction is from God. From anyone else, well, pshaw. I ain't got no time for that anymore.
I will listen if I hear a constructive criticism, or bit of advice. I ponder, think about it, and if I find in it any truth, then I decide if it is worth the bother, or just the way I am and choose to remain. '
Surely there is some common denominator for us all here - ADHD.
Very Truly,
Liz
trusting myself
Submitted by honeyblonde on
Hi Liz, I am nearly... very nearly, 37 years young.
Im just having a hard time now. We are in the thick of it. I knew there were problems many months ago, before the engagement. I tried to help him, and us, work through issues that I thought were circumstantial. I recognize now they were not. We have changed all the circumstances... many anyway, and we always end up in the same place. I somehow end up with my needs not being met, and he ends up doing exactly what he always does.
The he issue to me now is that im angry. I am now committed, legally. Our wedding hit me like a ton of bricks. It just gave me the insight into what my future is going to be with this man and showed me exactly what the past year or so has really been. Reality hit, unfortunately on the eve of my wedding, continuing through the wedding night and even through the Monday after. He is not capable of meeting my needs, because he's not capable of even realizing that I have needs, because he's not capable of looking outside his own.
It's hard to choose me, instead of us. I don't think there is an us, and there hasn't been an us since the first few months... Maybe the first year. It's just him.
In in the circumstances of the verbal and emotional abuse, I just have to choose me. I can't allow that behavior near me, directed at me, or in my home. It doesn't matter if it was him home too. He lost the privilege of being here because he disrespected it and me too many times. I've just been told I'm wrong so many times.
people dont understand
Submitted by Finding It hard on
But from reading your posts i see i'm not alone. im in a similar situation with the tantrums over any time i assert myself to be respected. After 3 years together (long story - known each other for 10) he is now ok to be seen out and about with me (he recently bought his family business off his ex wife so this is part of the reason), but he is always uncomfortable and says i force him to go out even just to the local diy store. He is 20 years older and will contiue to make comments about being with his daughter. After so many years of having to hide and it all being about his needs, i finally thought it would change when he got diagnosed with adhd, ocd and ptsd. The verbal and emotional abuse, the uncertainty of how he would react, the hyperfocus then being nothing to him, the name calling,the empty promises, the denying of things he said and did, the days of silent treatment, the excuses why he kept me a secret i and so much much more took there toll. I was severely depressed and upset but he would just laugh say i had a problem and always turn it around to his problems at work being bigger. I was so confused, worthless basically every word an abused person feels that i have tried taking my life. I could never understand what I had done or hadn't done right but it would not matter what ever I did would be wrong to him. His latest tantrum and hopefully I can stay away was over us being at a diy store, he got a phone call and then just left without saying anything. I was embarrased in front of the staff and so shouted out bye then, He had an alarm activation to go to and so I went to his house and sat waiting for him (im not allowed a key). when he got back I asked if another time he could just let me know where he was going etc.......well this is the first time ive been brave enough to assert my boundaries for some time and he flew into a rage accusing me of not letting him do his job and controlling him, should he ask me every f-ing time if its ok to be on call, he tossed his pager at me and told me to do his f=ing job, and continued on about the job is more important than me and he doesn't need my shit, and i should just give it away and carried on for 30 minutes about how im pressuring him, I have never ever said anything about him going off to work (he owns the business) and tried to recommunicate that i would just like to be told thats all. I think i heard every swear word and being told to just f-off. I am so confused as he seems to just want out of the relationship if i stand up to him but then when i finally ring him back denies anything that has just happened!!!!!! sorry to go on I know im only responsible for my actions and responses but I just want him to understand it was just a small comment but this happens over and over again and A lot of it is in his mind, Last week he got mad at me for not answering my phone, but i never recieved a call. I showed him my phone to try and calm him down to prove it but he just chose something else to rant at me about.
Finding it hard...
Submitted by honeyblonde on
Finding it hard...
i understand and your situation. My ADHD H isn't quite there with being hateful in general. His hatefulness is typically when he's in the tantrum zone. BUT, I want to let you know that I did date a ,an for many years that treated me like this. I have come to find out that as much as I blame the men for these things, I allow many of these things to happen. I realized that I allowed disrespect, and the more you allow someone to disrespect you,... The less they respect you. It's an issue for me too. I'm forgiving, and I would never treat someone like this and guess I assumed that someone who I care about wouldn't do these things. With my last relationship, I had to learn to love myself and treat myself the way I wanted to be treated. No matter his issues. No more excuses for him. ADHD, PTSD, OCD... No matter what their issues are its never ok to be ignored, humiliated, disrespected or mistreated. I actually just 100% completely walked away after many years, and I didn't look back. I didn't need "closure", or for him to hear me or understand anything, because I just realized that I couldn't expect him to treat me like a queen when I wasn't treating myself any better. I don't completely understand it either, but I recognized that I didn't deserve that life. You don't deserve to be "hidden" or lied to or ignored especially if he is or has been your top priority. Choose you, choose to be happy. He sounds toxic.
As as for my marriage and the ADHD, I don't know what will happen with us. Unfortunately we do have theses issues with the tantrums and outbursts and not getting his way... But I don't know the outcome yet. I still feel that he really wants to to be a wonderful man. He is so conflicted and I can see it in him when he's in the middle of his break downs. It's child. My ex, didn't give a S*** about being nice or ethical or anything positive. He wasn't a nice person, and he was a narcissist and more than likely a psychopath. I suggest you read about psychopathic relationships. Just google it. You may find more similarities with that topic than with ADHD.
Best of luck to you!
And just keep choosing you and trusting your gut... I know it's hard. Everyday is a struggle for me too.
Can Anyone Translate...?
Submitted by jlhrva on
I feel like I am just speaking the wrong language. That I"m "this close" to understanding how to communicate with him, but I just can't...
Sigh. It's really comical sometimes. Except when it's soul-crushingly depressing.
Last night he decided that I was 'jerking away from him', because I was squirming and uncomfortable on the couch. No amount of explaining that I was just uncomfortable got through, at all. I was deliberately pulling away from him, whether I understood what I was doing or not.
Now, the most recent argument we've had started with me trying to softly explain to him that he had been turning his back and pulling away from me for most of a weekend, and that this behavior could be interpreted as closed-off or hostile. It is a no-go zone for me to try to show him how his conduct impacts those around him. He's just "not doing" whatever it is that I am trying to get him to see. And if I continue to try to explain that he IS doing something that can be perceived this way, I will be roundly attacked for calling him a liar and not accepting what he tells me IS the true nature and intent of his action.
But apparently, conversely, it is absolutely fine for him to insist that he knows better than me how I am personally behaving.
Why? Why does he know "what I'm doing", even if I am not and insist that I am not, but I have no ability to even explain that although he may not mean something, his actions/words are coming across that way?
And the funniest part (if it wasn't so sad), is that he truly doesn't even see the commonality between the 2 situations. There is some elaborate construct in his mind that allows him to see what he is telling me about my behavior on the couch ("you're pulling away from me") as fundamentally different from me saying, "hey, you've been turning away from me all morning, is something wrong?".
He can tell me what I AM doing, and insist that it is so whether I recognize it or not. But if I even suggest that he "is" doing something....BOOM. No he isn't, how dare I think that it's my place to tell him what he's doing, I'm calling him a liar, making him out to be an as%h*le, etc, etc, etc. This will invariably trigger a 3-day fight.
Last night I just hugged him and said "I love you, please let's end this discussion now".
He wanders off, presumably downstairs to his shop. Half an hour later I go to get ready for bed, he's in bed with the lights off. I ask why (he always stays up late, and we either go to bed together or he comes in later - always). He responds that I was "acting angry" and he "doesn't know what to do when [I'm] like that". I said very calmly that I was not and am not angry at all.
So now I'm in trouble for "calling him a liar" and "making a big deal out of a situation" that "I caused in the first place."
Nevermind that this entire scenario was him deciding what I am doing, and ascribing intent to it, not listening to clarification or trying to discuss with me, then pouting off to bed like a child in a tantrum. It's apparently MY fault. Even though I was literally a bystander to the whole thing.
No idea how much longer I can cope without just losing my head and screaming "GROW UP!! ACT LIKE A FREAKING ADULT!!!"
Hey jlhrva
Submitted by kellyj on
I think I can translate. Again....I am finding out things on both parts of why my wife and I get into situations like this where we are both not relating to the same thing we are talking about.
You said... There is some elaborate construct in his mind that allows him to see what he is telling me about my behavior on the couch ("you're pulling away from me") as fundamentally different from me saying, "hey, you've been turning away from me all morning, is something wrong?".
Through countless hours of doing this sme thing with my wife....this is what I have arrived at myself with the help of my T. I've now come to understand that when my T tells me something that doesn't appear to make sense to me when my wife and I are together in our sessions....I need to pay attention to that. He tells me often with her when we are speaking together.....your getting ahead of yourself. You are jumping ahead and not staying with what my wife is saying.
I tend to do that and I know it's true....but he hasn't made that an issue before in something I need to be thinking about.
In terms of my wife however.....this has begun to make sense. That elaborate construct you are talking about? It's him trying to catch up with his feelings and trying to explain something to you that you are doing in the moment that is not connecting with what is actually happening at the time. It's an incomplete unfinished thought that comes out within that elaborate construct that fills in the parts that are missing.
In other words....he's behind you in the moment but he is feeling something that you did that causes this feeling in him and he doesn't know what that is exactly. It's not specifically related to what you just did that caused him to say it....but in a more general sense.....it is valid if he could only explain it to you in way that made sense to you and that you can relate with. My wife does this very thing all the time. After twenty questions.....I finally get to the place where I can sort of understand but still not quite getting it? What I do get is that I am frustrated that she can't just say what's on her mind and tell me what she feels and why?
I have come to understand.....that she simply can't. She doesn't know. And I'm already jumping ahead for her and trying to lead her to what it is that I think she is trying to say out my own irritation and impatience with her.
My T kept saying to me.....try and just listen and don't say anything. I took his advise and did just that in these moments. What I found was....she just needed to heard and that is exactly what she said. Later...she would pick up where that left off and said some more about it. Then later....she would pick it up again and still be talking about the same thing. Still later....she would bring it up again as if we were still having the same conversation but each time she would bring it up....it was more like the continuation of the same thing...not actually saying the same thing.
In other words. He is trying to say something....and you are only getting chapter one of the story and that;s all he's got at that point. You will just have to wait for chapter two when he gets there and can talk about it. It might take my wife literally....3 days to say what I can say in 5 minutes or less when it comes to something like this that she is trying to tell me but she can't do it that fast. It's a slow painstaking process at times but eventually....she will finally get to where she says the thing that makes me understand what is on her mind.
What I don't want to do is rush her and try and force what she doesn't know out of her by getting irritated and annoyed by the fact that I have to wait for each chapter with long spaces between each one. I also don't like mini series and soap operas for the very same reason. I want the story to unfold and be done in an two hours or less if I'm going to enjoy them. I don't like having a partial conversation and then have to wait until the next night to finish it but it does appear to be in our case at least......this is all she can do. She can't do what I do and if I try and force that on her....it only causes friction and a fight.
What is your fault in this if I am to translate.....it trying to make him do this too fast and jumping ahead of him before he has processed it enough without the elaborate construct to fill in the gaps. But of course (the same as my wife)....he can't tell you that because he doesn't know himself.
Let it go. Don't grill him or ask a lot a questions like you do even if you don't understand. Just listen and wait.....see if the next time he comes back around for chapter 2 and 3 on his own and tells you what it is you really want to hear so you can understand.
He wanders off, presumably downstairs to his shop. Half an hour later I go to get ready for bed, he's in bed with the lights off. I ask why (he always stays up late, and we either go to bed together or he comes in later - always). He responds that I was "acting angry" and he "doesn't know what to do when [I'm] like that". I said very calmly that I was not and am not angry at all.
This is very telling. He's processing this all and he hasn't come to any conclusions yet but.....you asked? He told you what he thinks it is but he isn't fully prepared to give you an answer yet base on what he is feeling. His emotions are behind his feelings and he has put them together to figure out what is wrong?
Advise here only in what you just said I said very calmly that I was not and am not angry at all. I was not angry....is defensive. I am not angry is not defensive. It's just saying what you feel right now in that very minute.
Leave it there and don't add anything else to it. The rest....just let it go. Eventually....he'll catch up and let you know in his own time. Chapter 4, 5 ,6, and then the end. One chapter at a time.
He is trying at least....I can tell that much from what he said:)
J
jhrba...its common behavior for us also....
Submitted by c ur self on
My Opinion and experience:)
The problem that created the extended conflict is not his desire to control, his desire to attack you with judgments and put words in your mouth...
The problem is your response to it....Go back to the beginning of your post...If you would have said (after his judgment about your moving around) calmly, "nothing to do with you, just trying to get comfortable". It would have been over for you, and, if every comment after that from him could have been ignored (or at least not responded to verbally or emotionally) the extended conflict could have been avoided (in most cases)....I've done the same thing (go into self-preservation mode) to many times to count....And like you, sadly fell right into the trap!...And I should know better with our history....
When we live with someone who responds in this manner, we have to have self-discipline and an awareness level (even in those sweet time of peace and sharing, your guard is down and they are the most dangerous) to the point we can ignore everything that comes after we speak a simple truth in love....Everything! The reason I say everything, is they do not like it when you don't respond...Your response to their judgments is what lets them off the hook. They can keep their denial in tack only if you carry the blame!
When I'm able to do that it defuses her (it's like shining a flashlight in her eyes) and in some cases she will think about her negativity and judgments and apologize....
PS.. this response to you is as much for me as it is for you...And for that matter anyone who lives with this same struggle....
Blessings and Merry Christmas!
C
He got mad that you didn't
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
He got mad that you didn't answer your phone, but you showed him that you didn't receive a call, and then he got mad at something else.
BEEN THERE! Sometimes H won't even look at my phone to see if a call or text came thru. He's too busy ranting.
THIS isn't ADHD. This is something more serious. This is someone who gets mad, accuses, find out that his accusation is wrong, but cannot "back pedal". this is related to splitting, but kind of in an indirect way.
A healthy person would say, "hey, I called you this morning." That gives you a chance to give your reason: Oh, I was in the bathroom, or....I didn't see/hear the call....I was away from my phone....I was at an appt. And, then the mentally healthy person would be fine with that.
But a mentally unhealthy person who "splits" will immediately jump to a (wrong) conclusion that you purposely didn't answer your phone....and will get mad at you. And, since they've been mad since the moment you didn't answer the phone, they can't back-pedal once they learn the truth.. They're already too furious.
The person who "splits" gets angry that you didn't answer your phone and doesn't logically think, "hmm...maybe she's in the shower," or "maybe she's on the phone with someone else," or whatever. Instead, they immediately jump to a negative conclusion (that you were ignoring them).
This sort of behavior is common with those who have Borderline PD or Narcissistic PD. My H has BPD, with some NPD traits. If I take a few minutes longer in a grocery store, H will accuse me of purposely making him wait, instead of thinking that possibly there is a line at the check-out, or that maybe I had a hard time finding an item or maybe I had to go to the Ladies Room. No...he immediately concludes that the delay is to upset him.
The Tantrums!
Submitted by jlhrva on
"He is not capable of meeting my needs, because he's not capable of even realizing that I have needs, because he's not capable of looking outside his own. "
____
Parts of this post are breaking my heart...But you've just articulated something there that has been framed in the back of my mind for a long time now, but I've been fighting against it soooo hard.
I don't want that to be true. That he's not capable of even realizing that I have needs, because he can't see outside his own.
I want there to be 'the right way to explain it to him'. I want him to finally see what I'm talking about. How every interaction is about and focused on him and his needs, hurts, wants, etc. That any time I bring up my own, I am just asking something that he can't give, because "he's already giving me 100%, all the time". Or, even worse, I"m actually insulting him by needing whatever I need, or by being hurt by some action or word, because I "should never have taken it that way".
I'm luckier than most here. My ADHD partner acknowledges that part of his symptomology is that he legitimately HAS NO ABILITY to control his temper. The issue is that he thinks that since he can't control this, he is not responsible for what he does/says. That I am actually responsible for not provoking it. He does not apologize for, or even address/acknowledge the horrible things he says and the way that he speaks to me.
When we are not having conflict, I have the most sensitive, attentive, kind, loving, and understanding partner imaginable. When I have a problem that is NOT related to us, he is the most supportive guy on the planet. Wonderful, witty, forthright, always helpful to me and providing a supportive perspective that I desperately need.
But if I breathe one word of something between us that I am not happy with, WHAM! I'm "accusing" him of 16 things he would never do. I'm saying that he is lying to me, or I'm implying that he is...etc, etc.
I"m not accusing him of anything. I'm not making any blanket personality assessments or statements. I'm saying that a little thing is a bit hurtful to me. But the response I get is a 6-page discourse on why it's actually HIM who is being hurt and "done wrong" here. I will be accused of continuing some 'pattern' of bad behavior. Of never understanding what it is that I do that causes x,y,z.. And when I ask what this pattern/thing IS, I never get a clear answer. I get "I'm sick of having the same conversation with you over and over again"...what conversation??? All I am getting is a garbled stream of invective and accusation. WHAT am I doing????
I just want my kind and nice and loving partner...all the time. Not 'only when we are perfect'. I want someone who can engage in an open, accepting, and constructive dialog with me. Without taking everything I say as a 6-layered insult.
Is that possible?
How can you communicate with them? How???
Yes!
Submitted by honeyblonde on
Your response hit homes for me as well. Ive researched and read and tried to drill down in these forums to find something that seems to best explain him and us and the circumstances. What you have explained hits the nail on the head. I can't express any sort of disappointment, anger or frustration. I can't say something as simple as " hey, you didn't replace the tp" without a major upset from him. If I bring up more important issues, it just gets worse. I have tried my best to change my approaches and find a way to bring up these issues without making him feel the need to defend himself, but it' doesn't matter. It's almost as if all he hears, no matter what I'm saying, is that "you are a failure!!!".
The issues can be serious. Locking doors and night, leaving sharp things on the floor, or lose coins, etc. it so confusing because I have tried to explain that it's him that sets himself up for the upset. For example, if he goes to take a vitamin, then puts it in his pocket, then later it falls on the floor, then he doesn't pick it up, then the dog eats it, then the dog is sick, etc etc (we don't have a baby, but I try to explain to him, that these things are why I can't have a baby in this house the way it is... I would be a nervous wreck). He sabotages himself for those feelings of failure.
I don't know how else to explain it, but I feel like there is no connectors in his brain for cause and effect. I think this is similar to the idea of the "now and not now".
As far as what to do? I don't know either... We have bigger problems now with finances. In the past 3 months my credit score has dropped drastically. He had a handful of bills to pay on his own, and he just wasn't paying them? He just stopped. I offered many times to discuss the bills and ask about them, etc. I only got resistance and then hours of fighting and confusion and chaos.
He started to see a therapist, after a few ultimatums and total breakdowns on my part... And about 2 years of trying to approach the topic and convincing. I'm going next time. This really is my last straw. I'm taking the bills and finances because that has to stop immediately. There are so many fees at this point, we can't afford to let it hang in the balance or wait for him hopefully understand. Then the tantrums and verbal/emotional abuse. I'm taking control of this now, even though I've been called so many things including controlling. I'm not going to let it stop me. I'm allowed to take control of MY life... And so are you.
I want him to be medicated... Maybe not forever, but I feel like he's in this loop, where he can't get out of it, because his brain doesn't allow him to see the issues properly. I read an article by an ADHD man and he said after 50 years he began mess and it was like living without glasses your whole life, and finally after 50 years of needing them he could see the world and it hit him like a ton of bricks. He realized and recognized how confusing he had been for so long. That's what I'm hoping for now.
Best of of luck to you! Please keep in touch, typing these feelings out has helped so much! It's so nice to be heard by someone that gets what I'm saying or feeling.
What they hear...
Submitted by jlhrva on
It's almost childlike, sometimes, isn't it? No matter what you say or how you say it...they hear "you're doing something wrong". When I first started digging into this issue, maybe June/July, it used to literally blindside me. I would feel like I had physically been hit. What?? I'm "jumping your case"??? I'm "giving you sh*t???" I was just TALKING to you, openly and honestly, about what I'm experiencing. Where is this COMING from??
It's a very simplistic and self-focused way to view emotional interaction. It's especially frustrating with my partner, because as I've mentioned, he is capable of such high-level compassion and support for me in all other areas.
This must be worse for you. My partner is medicated. Quite well medicated. He just refuses to see how ADHD plays into our emotional life together. Because there is a stone wall meeting the suggesting that he processes things in a self-focused or defensive way.
I don't think my partner hears "failure" as yours does. Frankly, his response to "failure" would be "F you, I'll decide whether I'm a success or a failure". But he hears the suggestion of "doing something wrong". The problem is that LITERALLY ANYTHING I say is interpreted from this standpoint - how I am thereby accusing him of doing something wrong. And if I suggest that this is his interpretation, rather than my intent, he will fly off the handle about how there's no other way to take this, I clearly meant this, here is his "evidence" for why I meant that...etc, etc.
On the other hand, If I misinterpret something he says, I am guilty of a systemic pattern of false and negative presumptions about him, I'm accusing him of behaving in ways that he doesn't, etc.
So, basically, his interpretations of my behavior are correct. My interpretations of his behavior are wrong.
My failure to accept his explanation or elaboration about what he meant is wrong. His refusal to accept my explanation or elaboration is correct for 16 reasons he will list.
If i suggest that there is a double standard at play here - rage explosion. "So SICK OF REPEATING THE SAME...". (We're repeating it because it isn't resolved. I don't agree with you. And you refuse to accept any part of what I say.)
I ask how he can speak to me in the ways that he does, if he really loves me.
He just yells that he is sick of me not seeing my problems and what I am doing, sick of etc, etc.
He never apologizes for the rage and the meanness. But I have to apologize for and take responsibility for EVERYTHING.
I don't have a problem knowing that I have to be the bigger person. That is a "known quantity" at this point. My problem is that I am held to a standard of perfection in this regard that is 1. unattainable and 2. not reciprocated.
Like your wife, he is also capable of carrying this on for days. I can predict when these episodes are coming. Little tensions in his behavior, etc. If I ask about them, I am accusing him of behaving badly. If I say, "are you sure you're ok?", I am accusing him of withholding things from me, or directly lying to me.
If he says "are you sure you're ok? you seem tense", I respond with either information about what is bothering me or reassurance that I am ok. If I say that to him, he responds with "what, so now I'm not allowed to...?"
How does he not see the difference in how he reacts to me, vs.....you get the point. I'm just so tired. Worn down ragged with trying to explain this to him. I've made no headway. And I don't seem to be able to force myself not to pursue it. It comes out in frustration, no matter how hard I try to suppress it...
Big Light Bulb Moment jlhrva....The "Other One"
Submitted by kellyj on
Hey jlhrva,
I just ran across something that might interest you. I've been referring to my wife's anger issues in connection with with what I have been calling "The Other One". I think this concept and definition will be enlightening for you in connection to our conversation about this. I thought you might be able to make use of this and I think this theory not only is valid but it explains my wife to me tremendously. What I do with this new tid bit of information has yet to be determined but......on my side of things, this also helps explain a lot. As far as ADHD goes.....I think this might be a real eye opener too. As for now.....there is a lot to think about here and I haven't even come close to drawing any conclusions yet but when I read this I went....Ah HA!!! (ding...light bulb moment).
And I also wanted to say one thing on the topic of tantrums. Making this simple......a person who reacts with a tantrum like anger episode is really acting like a child but more over.....when your boundaries have been crossed and you have no ability to tell someone or articulate this to them to let others know that they have crossed them.....the reaction will be very child like no matter how old you are.
A) Some personal boundary has been crossed of their's whether you can see it, understand it or dismiss it as irrelevant. That's your choice what to do with it but....whether you agree with it or not. This IS what just happened with them like it on your side.....or not.
B) They cannot articulate this boundary since they are not actually aware of what and where it is in the first place. This makes them vulnerable to other people in fear that it will keep getting crossed with no respect to it in the future. The reaction is anger. The feeling is disrespect...the emotion(s)????? Will vary greatly from person to person. Personal boundaries are individual and cannot be argued but.....you should be able to talk about them generally speaking from one adult to another unless they are not aware of what they are or where they are? This is the problem I am having with my wife in her own inability to do this. My inability is finding a way to talk about them with her and I think this subject of self parenting is the reason why?
This is only my personal opinion here in my own words for what it's worth....I'm not an expert on the subject......but I am a pretty good observer I think?
This explains the "other one" which only confirms exactly what I'm seeing each time and the duality of our confrontations together. Light bulb!!! lol
Self Parenting (taken from Wikapedia)
The idea of self-parenting is that a person's "mind" is created in the form of a conversation between two voices generated by the two parts of the cerebral hemisphere. One is the "inner parent" represented by the left brain with the other voice being the "inner child" represented by the right brain. The manner and quality by which these "inner conversations" take place between the two voices is most accurately described as self-parenting. The inner parent is parenting the inner child within the inner conversations.
Another way of seeing self-parenting through a different perspective is first off knowing that usually some individuals are not strong when it comes to dealing with problems with their inner self; they usually need a mentor with positive feedback, there to guide them with certain strategies and most of all to overcome obstacles. Most of the time when they are in need to dealing with the forces of reality, they may place too much pressure on certain people.[1]
The individual quality of a person's self-parenting style is said to closely resemble the specific style of parenting he or she received growing up as child
J
It's almost childlike, sometimes, isn't it? No matter what you s
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
<<<
It's almost childlike, sometimes, isn't it? No matter what you say or how you say it...they hear "you're doing something wrong". When I first started digging into this issue, maybe June/July, it used to literally blindside me. I would feel like I had physically been hit. What?? I'm "jumping your case"??? I'm "giving you sh*t???" I was just TALKING to you, openly and honestly, about what I'm experiencing. Where is this COMING from??
<<<
Yes, they do "hear" the most carefully crafted corrections in a very bad way.
I suspect that when these types were younger, they were shamed in a cruel way....either by a parent, older sibling, grandparent, neighbor, teacher, or someone who the child valued or looked up to. My H will tell me that his older brother was extremely cruel making fun of his mistakes and taunting him for not knowing how to do certain things. H's parents, clueless and lazy, never put a stop to it....likely were too into themselves to even know it was going on.
H has to be in a VERY good mood in order to handle any kind of correction.
However, a kind of funny thing happened today. In the past, H would often make a mess by not thinking, and he'd get very annoyed at being told WHY there's a better way to do something (cause less mess, less risky, etc). Of course he NEVER cleaned up after himself. For one reason, he never "noticed" the mess he made. The other reason would be to "punish" me for mentioning that he had made a mess. (So, my punishment was that I had to clean HIS mess.) Most of his incidents were really due to a lack of much "hands on experience" with virtually anything...cleaning, fixing something, etc. Well, today I was fixing a broken curtain rod in a building we own, and some flakes of drywall were falling to the floor. Now that he helps me with my business, including making sure that everything looks spotless, he "scolded" me (nicely) that I should have put something down to collect the drywall dust because now the floor was going to need recleaning. I agreed with him, and I cleaned up after I was finished. And, then I laughed and told him why this was amusing to me. In the reverse, H would have been angry at me if I had told him the same thing. And the only reason H was NOW aware of the ramification of the "dust," is because he's been helping me.
But, yes, they hear every minor gently given correction as an ..
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
...as an insult.
Many of us have been told that we "used a tone" and that's what they use to justify their anger. I've recorded myself as proof that I didn't use a tone. I have whispered corrections. I have used, "sweetheart, please don't ........" Yet, he will still say that I "yelled" at him.
The tone of voice
Submitted by jennalemone on
EXACTLY!. Is this ADD or is this manipulation? That happens here too. People tell me I have a quiet, soft voice. People tell me to speak up my entire life because they hardly hear me. Yet H tells me I used a "tone" very often, He'll say, " I could hear it in your voice what you MEANT." He has said hundreds of times to me, "You get more bees with honey." ....meaning I should sugar coat my requests or comments to him. I ALREADY feel like my voice is vulnerable and soft. H's voice is authoritative and loud. People tend to believe him when he talks even though I know he is lying/manipulating. I think voice tone is part of our problem. H has "gotten away" with many things I did not believe in because his way of speaking....cussing/name calling/insinuating/gas lighting/sarcasm has more "clout" than the way I speak. Yet I never have told him to use a different way of speaking to me. He tends to "attack" when I bring up something like that...turning any request I have of him into a barrage of telling me I do the same to him, whatever it is, only using more dramatic terms on me....I don't win in a war of words. H's family talked a strange way....If they were asking for something....you had to listen and then interpret what they were actually saying...All their communication was in their minds "sugar coated" beating around the bush, sometimes saying the exact opposite of what they really meant. There was no direct communication between each other...they had a shorthand/long hand and talked around circles never really saying what they meant.
He should have had a more forceful talking wife than me. Someone who could cuss and fight and hold her own in the battles of flinging insults and blame. Do I want to start throwing my hat in the ring of verbal barbary? Doesn't sound like an agreeable marriage or a secure/loving/safe environment family to me. He seems to WANT me to put him down with teasing and constant teenage flirting rather than direct communication. That would be fine if he played "grown ups" with me when we need to discuss and be responsible. He just wants to play verbal games of war.
Yet, H says he would like me to add a little "sugar" to my voice when speaking to him.
ADD or immaturity or manipulation? All three, I guess but it wears thin on a spouse who is trying to discuss and partner with someone.
Jenna and OW...What is ADHD and What is Not?
Submitted by kellyj on
This is much easier for me now to tell you what I believe is ADHD in all of this. This should make it much simpler to figure these things out if you were wondering?
To start with....my wife does this same thing with me as well. It's pretty easy for me to see this and it really is the exact same thing. I might be getting frustrated or irritated with her for any reason....and if we start to get into about something.....the volume of my voice usually goes up a little bit. OMG!! I'm yelling or even screaming at her if this happens. I literally have to bring the volume down BELOW where I normally speak if I want her to stop accusing me of yelling at her. This is baiting or gaslight. No matter what you do and no matter how insignificant it is on your part that they can find fault with you.....they will! If they can't find ammo against you even if you are being a perfect angel.....they will find something. They have to. How else can they take an opposing opinion from the victims stance. It's all tied to playing the victim role. That's what happening. What ever minor detail or thing they bring up against you has nothing to do with it. It's completely irrational and irrelevant to what is happening. Trying to figure out the logic and reason in these moments or in what they tell you is a HUGE waste of energy! Save yourself the trouble and just let that go.
In a perfect world.....if you could not react, not take offense, not speak in a harsh tone and not do anything what so ever to insight you husband for anything!!! Even then....they would find fault somewhere. If you being a victim....someone is always doing something to you all the time! lol That's what victims do. And they will blow everything out of proportion and embellish the least thing from a mole hill to a mountain every time. This is part of the pattern. The specific thing that they a bringing up is just another way to counter balance what you are doing right....with what they are doing wrong. Again.....this is what they do all the time 24/7 if your a victim 24/7. Put other down to bring themselves up. This is what they do. Don't listen to them and don't follow any of their advise or comments about you to the contrary. You are not losing your mind and probably doing nothing unusual at all. They will tell you that you are.....but don't listen to them. It's all BS.
Having said that.....you should try and watch how your own irritation and annoyance comes through when you talk. Tone is important....just don't use them as your means to tell you if your tone is too harsh or not sweet enough. If you have to....ask someone else to watch you or go look in the mirror and see if you see something that you are doing to set your H's off. If so....change that....it's good for you anyway no matter where you go or who you are with. Like I said....I can be almost whispering with my wife and she will still say I was yelling at her anyway later on. I think the yelling that is happening is inside their own heads. The two voices in the self parenting explanation? The inner child little victim is getting yelled at by the parent. Not you....the "other one" inside their head.( I think technically speaking....this is the superego talking now) That's who's yelling or using a harsh tone with them. Your voice is just getting run through that filter and it comes out as you doing it. Everything gets amplified and becomes out of scale once it reaches their inner ear.
So OW....when you said.... In the past, H would often make a mess by not thinking, and he'd get very annoyed at being told WHY there's a better way to do something (cause less mess, less risky, etc). Of course he NEVER cleaned up after himself. For one reason, he never "noticed" the mess he made. The other reason would be to "punish" me for mentioning that he had made a mess. (So, my punishment was that I had to clean HIS mess.) Most of his incidents were really due to a lack of much "hands on experience" with virtually anything...cleaning, fixing something, etc.
What part of this is ADHD and what is not? For one reason, he never "noticed" the mess. Specifically and directly tied to ADHD? In my opinion....that's the only part aside from one more thing that is connected with this in what you said.
I still can't always catch myself in the process of making a mess.or see the mess, or see the things on the floor, or n the table, or everywhere else I don't see things. I can't not get distracted or go into hyperfocus all of the time. That's simply impossible. When I do.....I don't see things or rather....only see things through a pretty narrow telescope. Everything else just disappears. But.....just like you H OW.....when I am paying attention or hyper focusing on something (like helping you clean)....I'll notice the tiniest speck of dust or detail since that is what I am focusing on at the time. This is ADHD!!
It's as simple as that.....but, I don't take exception or try to blame anyone and....my wife can point it out all the time and even she does it in harsh voice and I know it's my fault if I made a mess or not. I know when, why and what caused me to do it and I don;'t take offense or try and say it;s because of something else. At this point no matter how my wife says it if it's a complaint, a reminder, a freak out moment or otherwise.... I say "thanks for the reminder and go clean it up."
That's it....nothing more to say on my part. It would be nice to lose the tone at times just to make life a little easier....but at this point....my wife is only hurting herself when she does this....not me. I notice also....that even when I say....."thanks for the reminder' and then clean up my mess? That's not good enough. She needs that pound of flesh out me at some point and that's when she baits me into an argument and then she;s free to fire all her guns at me at the same time.
If I'm perfect.....I see her fidgeting and fussing and trying to find some way she can just get it out and kick the dog at the same time. I'm getting so good at not reacting any more.....she's the one who slips now and I still don't say a word but....I can tell she just embarrassed herself and she will usually settle down once she does. No admitting wrong doing of course to anything of this but.....she stop haranguing me:)
Give 'em enough rope and they will hang themselves. You just have to stay clean in the meantime and not let them ambush you or sneak up behind you when you aren't looking and make you slip up.
Everything else IS something else but.....that's not to say that people with ADHD don't share a lot of other common behaviors.
Victim mentality is one of them. Another name for it is "playing both sides of the fence." I can't tell you how irritating this is for me now. I think you can blame most everything you said on this alone. I know this really well at this point. I stopped being a victim years ago and have done a pretty good job of eliminating most of the latent victim thinking out of my way of seeing things. Once you do that.....it's painfully obvious when the person sitting next to you is being one themselves. My wife suffers greatly from it and now in reverse of my past.....I'm the one who's being driven nuts by it! lol
I think it's my penitents for my past or something:) lol
J
PS I always have go stop and try and remember the things I use to do and I know that when I was being the victim....I use to do a lot of these things. It seems what I am trying to do now is clean up in the sense that a lot of little things that still slip out are now from habit. It's easy for me to see it if I pay attention to these things and one by one....change them to something different ( which I've been doing for years now) but these are now the "tell tale" little signs or remnants of what use to be for me. I just don't remember all the things I use to anymore until I really stop and think about it. That's how much has changed fro the past.....it's even getting hard to always remember. And why? Only so I can think about these things here to help on the forum.... but very much know when I'm being a victim or not in my thinking. That I clearly know now and it[s really easy to correct:)
I Just Looked Up Superego Again
Submitted by kellyj on
Here's a definition for you.
superego [(sooh-puhr- ee -goh)]
In Freudian psychology, the part of the psyche that incorporates parental or community values and standards and acts as an inner check on behavior. The superego and ego, responding to social demands, are often in conflict with the primitive impulses of the id.
So....the id is the victim here. That's the inner (ADHD)child is being "scolded" by their parents (from the past) or superego. This is the REAL conflict here....not with you but between these two since all the things you learn about societal norms, rules and regulations plus....your parents. The superego is telling the Id that it has done something wrong. Bad child!! lol And you....the unwitting victim in this scenario.....are getting confused with the superego every time you start parenting or mothering your spouse. Are you confused here? Trust me.....it took a long time for me to see these things and understand them. It takes some time to sink in for sure.
As a result....if you are mothering or being a parent to your spouse....unconsciously....the Id ( or wounded hurt victim child) is who you are dealing with in these moments. Child like? Most definitely! What their Id is hearing from you in these moments...is what you well get out of them when you do this. That's who's doing the talking to you when you confront them in these moments or....all the time if it's so chronic and ingrained that it has become a way of life for them. If you can figure out a way to get rid of this nasty little ID.....let me know....I could use some more advise here myself with my wife! lol
One more thing here. In the those rare cases when I have completely lost my cool and go on a temper tantrum.....it feels like I am a child again. Regression I think it's called. Just an interesting tid bit to throw in here. It's not so important in doing things about it to make it stop but..... this was fascinating discovery to have witnessed this myself. That really is who came out of me in those moments and it was very telling and interesting to say the least.
Now add in the Ambivalence here.....the unresolved conflict between the ego and super ego. Bingo...I think? lol I'm not 100% sure about that since I haven't looked that up yet....but I suspect that I'm right here?
When we're stressed......we regress. I didn't make that one up.....I heard that from my T:)
J
There's so much to think about...
Submitted by honeyblonde on
and I feel like I'm the only one thinking about any of it. I've been keeping up with these comments, but I had time to sit and reread them. I just wanted to add some thoughts. I too feel as though I've already learned these "lessons". I remember fighting fights, manipulating words, and arguing until my face turned blue... Or better yet, until I exhausted the opposing partner, but I've grown out of it. I learned better, more honest, happier ways to love and deal with others in relationships. I did a lot of work on myself several years back, and got honest about a lot of past behaviors. Like you, I think to myself when watching my H do this, what was I thinking when I did it? I can't really remember... I know I didn't like to be told what to do, and I get it, but I was single, just one. I wasn't married, partnered and responsible for anyone else. Many times I just feel like he hasn't matured and this isn't an ADHD problem. Maybe this is a "he's just selfish and immature" problem. I guess I think it's mixed. So back to I know that I didn't like to be told what to do... Well what is a partner to do? Never say a word? Let the, learn on their own? Sure, except when it comes to finances or safety? What about my own mental health and self esteem? Should the line be drawn there? I honestly can't take the insults, gas lighting, confusion any more. My spirit can't take it. Since I've enlightened myself, matured, and become honest with myself, I've also become softer. I just don't want the conflict. I can't hear over and over again how I'm to blame, or what a terrible person I am, or how I'm so spoiled and perfect blah blah blah. Maybe I need thicker skin? Yes, sure. But why is it reasonable anyone would need to get thicker skin with their partner? That doesn't seem ok. I think I feel like I not stable or strong enough to deal with his actions or behaviors. My self esteem isn't strong enough to withstand the insults and confusion. I start to feel guilty, or responsible sometimes, when it's practically impossible. I was sick recently. Very sick for several weeks, and I honestly felt like he tried to harass, badger and terrorize me more because I was weak and exhausted. It was like he saw an opportunity to wear me down and "win". "Winning" is his word. When I don't give in, or give up sometimes he will tell me "fine, you win". I just always tell him, there's no winner when we've spent an entire day doing this. I think part of me is scared to stop,arguing and trying to sort it out. I'm afraid if I stop, he will stop trying to work on things. In all honesty, I feel pretty certain he won't continue any work in the ADHD. Maybe due to the ADHD, but either way. I stop nagging, he stops doing. He seems to genuinely forget. So back to the vicious cycle... All the responsibility is on me, he resents me for reminding him (though, he will blame me if I don't) and the parent/ child relationship continues... And I get more and more resentful. We get less and less intimate. I mean really... No woman wants to be a nag or a parent to their husband. Neither one makes me feel like a sexy, attractive, happy or anything like the woman and wife I wanted to be. I feel like an old lumpy grouchy grandma who's always bitching about something. It's much more appealing for me to be the irresponsible, forgetful, selfish, advantageous wife. I'm just much too old for it... And so is he.
The Tone Jenna
Submitted by kellyj on
I t took me a few minutes to think about this and I suddenly realized what you H was trying to say...Here we go....speak "athentically". I am as much at fault (if not more) than anyone else here I have boat load of sayings and phrases I use everyday without even realizing it. You get the jist? Right? What the hell is a jist? I have no idea!!!
So...correcting your husband now in what I think he was trying to say.....drop the "imperious" tone!! That's the one. It comes out in a manner of speaking....in the actual tone....and in your body language. I can tell you without question.....this is THE ONE you need to focus on. It it by definition....a superior tone and attitude. If you want to transfer imperious with parental......I think you get the drift? What ever that means. Sorry..humor to make a point.
Whether you know it or not.....it comes out of you. If you learn to focus on speaking authentically too....this will help. Those little phrases that we use are loaded with irony and sarcasm. Sarcasm comes in many forms and it's all negative. It can be hilarious if it's done with satire but not so much if you do this all the time. I am guilty as charged and working hard to stop this habit of mine. It works in reverse for you when it's not appropriate or when you are not trying to be funny.
Like Melissa mentioned in her post about Ambivalence where her husband diminished his chances to connect with her when he threw his little ditties at the end of the conversation.....thinking it was funny. What did she say it was like? Poking the hornets nest I do believe?
Every time you use a condescending or imperious tone or attitude....is like poking the hornets nest with us. That's our version of throwing a little joke in where it is not appropriate timing to do. It's all passive aggressive on some level on either side and I will always remember what my T said about that one...
"The problem with passive aggression is......while it may make you feel better in the moment.....it doesn't tell the person you are angry with anything. They're still left trying to figure out where the comment came from." Yes, yes, yes!! It is not speaking with authenticity. No , no no:)
And this goes right back here to what was mentioned earlier with baiting. My wife will cop this imperious attitude with me as the bait. She knows she is likely to get a reaction out of me when she does. Not anymore. I don't let those go for a minute....that's when I ask her "can you explain what you just just to me....i don't think I understand?" "You know what I mean" she says. I say "no I don't. You need to tell me what YOU mean by that in other words that I can understand." This drives her crazy because I just cut her off the pass. The bait didn't work and it back fired on her.
Then comes the "silent" moments....the "silent" treatment. Okay....that works too.....I just jump on my computer or go read and just ignore the "silent" treatment which gets less attention from me than more. This sends her spinning and looking for something else to do that will work. I can keep this up indefinitely and it no longer fazes me a bit. Until she can come to me and speak to me like an adult.....I'm going to treat her like a child until she can come and actually speak authentically. If not and she is going to play these "little girl" games with me....she gets no acknowledgment from me so ever. No anger, no fighting but no acknowledgement. I don't need that kind of attention. I'm quite self sufficient and am able to self soothe just fine by myself if that's my only choice.
Attitude is a much better descriptor here instead of tone. It encompasses not only tone.....but wording, passive aggression, sarcasm, shitty comments, catty remarks ( don't be catty girls)....which all qualifies as a "bad attitude" from the male perspective. And don't forget imperious. That will put me over the edge every time or at least it use to but I still don't like. It's really obvious and is really easy to see from a male perspective since men.....usually don't do this with each other as I said.....at the very least it's bad form for a guy.....and at best, you're asking to get punched in the face! lol The only men that I know who get away with this are gay. Straight up. I have a few male friends who are gay ( not close friends but friendships through other people and work) and I can put up with it for a while....but after that....it really start hitting on my ability not to want to smack them once in a while. Of course I don't but I'm still making the same point. Something inside your goes.....really? Would you mind repeating that one to me......(while you are squaring off with them in your mind and getting up in their virtual face! lol)
You also have to understand something from a guys perspective ( the male perspective). If a guy were to get catty and snippy with another guy in public or even in a relationship or group like women I have seen doing this (and especially going all the way back to the play ground growing up)....you are cruis'in for a bruis'in and you are more likely to get slugged in the stomach for no other reason. Little boy resolve conflict a bit differently than girls did at least when I was little. You mouth off to another little boy like this and someone is getting punched.....really hard! I'm saying in grade school as being the first time you really have to deal with conflict resolution for the first time and this is the way most little boys do it at some point in time or another. A guy would never get away with the way girls treat each other and if they do and there is a fight about it.....the fight last for only a few minutes and then.....everyone is friends again. That's how little boys dealt with each other but.....you walked away with resolution since someone clearly wins the fight when the other person yells "uncle!." Minutes later.....all is good and you forget about it moving forward. I can tell you for sure.....at some point in time.....I got in a physical altercation on some level with most of my best and closest friends when I was little and the next day.....we were right back to being friends again.
What I have noticed clearly is.....that women and even young girls do this in a completely different way and a lot of back stabbing, catty remarks, "clicking" with other girls and taking sides together seems to be pretty common way of resolving conflict. Actually....not resolving conflict. This seems to be a farily common practice amongst girls when I was growing up.
With guys.....that shit don't fly. Fists do in that case back in grade school but....it's over almost as fast as it starts and the last thing any self respecting boy would do is to try to take sides and try and fight another boys fight for them. You're on your own in the jungle of the play ground back then and it's ever (boy) for themselves unless it's a bully picking on weaker kids. That shit didn't fly either! lol This just isn't how it's done from a guys persecutive.
So what I am saying is if you are still with me is.....that from a guys perspective....catty juvenile female behavior is the same for a guy to want to punch you in the face if you were a guy from the same juvenile male perspective that is...... if you were a guy that is. It's inherent I think and it started back on the play ground in grade school when little boys and little girls are learning how to resolve conflict.
So if you add all of this up including an imperious tone and attitude.....attitude being the key word here not tone. This is saying one thing. It's a TRIGGER! Stay away from it! It's not just in the moment when you say things.....it tends to seep out of your pores all the time. That one for sure....is only asking for trouble:)
Get to know the word imperious and I think it will help you in not being that way around your H. It will not serve you in the least. Trust me on that much:)
J
The "Ref"...on the Topic of Speaking Athentically
Submitted by kellyj on
If you have never seen the movie...."The Ref" (Judy Davis, Kevin Spacey, Dennis Leary) you owe it to yourself to watch this one. It is really funny....but in respect to the topic of speaking authentically I can't think of a better example of "what to do" and "what not to do". Judy Davis and Kevin Spacey play a couple on the brink of divorce who are the epitome of wrong together in the way they deal with conflict resolution. They do everything wrong! And they really are like a couple of teenage kids in a relationship together. Richard Gravenese and Marie Wiess wrote a brilliant screen play together in how they conceived all the dysfunctional character in this one completely dysfunction family into the "perfect dysfunction" in my humble opinion. And then by chance and circumstance....a stranger enters the picture (Dennis Leary) who gets stuck trying to be the go between for the entire family out of his own need to make them all shut the F*&k up so he doesn't completely loose his mind. In this case (the criminal or anti-hero) steps in and does what years of therapy and turmoil could not do for these two and the rest of the family who are all stuck in the rut of living in dysfunction together. Leary as it turns out...has his own dysfunctional past and is about to lose his mind being around these two people for only a short time.
Without giving anything away....but to point out some of my favorite moments (done very well in a humorous but not in all that silly of a way).... is when Leahry is listening to these two bicker and fight with one another while standing in the bathroom (trying to escape the turmoil).....while holding his ears and making ridiculous verbal uttering's ( la la la la la la la) and saying.."this is my worst nightmare" as he recalls his own past and apparently....having to relive it again now with two complete strangers.
In contrast to this....and at the climax of the film...in an an absolutely riveting and extremely poignant scene (speaking now like a real critic ha!)....Davis and Spacey put on an absolutely brilliant performance depicting what happens when you speak authentically, openly and honestly together when they both feel that they have nothing left to lose than just to be honest which is in direct contrast to what they were doing previously together (behaving like a couple of children) and the end result of this which you will just have to watch it to see for yourself.
It's all there. Everything that you can think of they include into all the ways two people do not resolve conflict and just continue this none stop which also extends to all the other family members including their own son. The concept is brilliant and the acting is superb especially and namely....Judy Davis and Kevin Spacey.
I find it is much easier for me to see myself in other people when I can watch them and use them as an example to see what I am not seeing in myself. I think this movie ( and the writers who wrote the script) did a very good job of doing this exactly in a way that is so ridiculous that is becomes funny again. It does make you see just how silly you are being yourself when you can see just how silly someone else is when they do it.
It's certainly timely since it is centered around the Christmas theme. I think what it spot lights the most is the thing that I was saying about two adults who BOTH act like their perspective gender children and what happens when circumstances ( forces them) to see the reality of their own dysfunction.....
Which includes Dennis Leahry in this case...... who walked into this situation already fed up and sick of the same kind of thing from his past and said "enough is enough already....Jesus, please HELP ME!!!" :)
j
J, I read this all
Submitted by jennalemone on
But marriage and family is not the playground. We are not boys. We really are physically weaker. Some people are accustomed to feeling entitled and want to fight to not to be "bossed" around. When a woman is in charge of the household, it is her domain. Someone has to take ownership of certain areas of our lives or our lives are chaos. When there is a person in the group whose focus is on his ego and "one up-manship", then the unit/group/family has constant battles. If there is a person who won't communicate or "give", then the environment is a battleground. In my case, for over 40 years I was the person who "gave in" to keep the peace....even in my own domain which should be the inside house and kids....yet H wanted to have dominion over everything without putting in the vision/planning/attention that a house and family need. A domain that I assumed was his was financial earning a living. He chose over and over to override me in the household decisions and ignore his financial responsibilities.. It seemed all about his ego. Every decision of his had his ego involved. Not partnering.
J, you wrote: Then comes the "silent" moments....the "silent" treatment. Okay....that works too.....I just jump on my computer or go read and just ignore the "silent" treatment which gets less attention from me than more. This sends her spinning and looking for something else to do that will work. I can keep this up indefinitely and it no longer fazes me a bit. Until she can come to me and speak to me like an adult.....I'm going to treat her like a child until she can come and actually speak authentically. If not and she is going to play these "little girl" games with me....she gets no acknowledgment from me so ever. No anger, no fighting but no acknowledgement. I don't need that kind of attention. I'm quite self sufficient and am able to self soothe just fine by myself if that's my only choice.
H uses the "silent" treatment with me also. He knows that I want to have union and peace and partnership. His turning his back on me...he knows....hurts me. One of his manipulations. It seems to me that his own ego and soothing himself is more important to him than anything...In his mind, I am not a partner WITH him...he uses me to get revenge on the world. I realized this as a young bride. I even thought that I could take that so he wouldn't take his frustrations out on the kids. I "took" it. He did not hurt me with physical violence. He hurt me by refusing to cooperate using all the tools he was not afraid to use on me. Silent treatment, name calling, gas lighting, stubborness. He was also quick to say, "If you don't like it, you know what you can do!".....meaning I could leave. He NEVER was the caretaker of the union. He was like a single guy taking advantage of a place to sleep and having food and home prepared for him.
I Hear You Jenna
Submitted by kellyj on
And I know the feeling. I think the only error that I have made in my own thinking about this comes directly from my past as well. As far as making the distinction between the differences in men and woman using the children version between little boys and girls was to point out that just because someone is older.....doesn't mean you have actually grown up. I hope I didn't imply that these childish versions or conflict resolution were valid as an adult? Physically....men are generally stronger than most women even though....I know a few women that I definitely would not challenge in a physical fight! I would probably get my butt kicked! lol
Having said that.....these child like strategies that use to work in that context can and do get carried into adulthood on some level if you don't learn the skills how to do this well when you are little.....and especially if they are the same ones your parents used as a guide. The adult versions may appear slightly modified...but underneath they are just a crafty way of doing the adult version of the same thing. This is what I was really trying to say here with you. That also includes men not actually not getting physically violent in reality....but as you know....a bully only needs to threaten you if you are yourself are willing to lay down what you want for yourself and you are already vulnerable to their threats. It's very unfair and very very manipulative and coercive. It's not even fighting at that point....it's just taking advantage of the strength you have over another person. It's not meeting someone face to face on a level playing field if that's the case.
And in what you are saying and making the comparison as I was doing.....women have their strengths too even if it's not physical. I am way outmatched when going up against a woman if the art of manipulation and taking advantage of their strengths when it come to playing "the little girl" like I was saying however......I have become a lot more experienced and educated in many of these techniques that women may more commonly use but only to say....that it is not only women who use them. Men do the same things if they are not physically strong or powerful in that way themselves. If you are trying to be manipulative and controlling....the same techniques work both for men and women I think.
The point I was also trying to make here is about getting to resolution. I have read a few times recently that women tend to hang on to conflicted moments more than men and I'm theorizing here a little bit in my own thinking that part of that may come from these early confrontations and the way boy and girls do this with each other....and then later.....with the opposite sex. That's more in line with what I was saying not that boy all grow up becoming physically dominant and use that as a weapon or tool against women. Some do....but that's not what I'm talking about. In fact......I'm so not controlling in this way ( or the way your describe your H). Just the opposite. Some of my behaviors like making messes in the house could be seen as having an inability in HAVING control my wife's environment for her personally in the way she wishes it.....but I'm not directly trying to control her by these behaviors. The behaviors themselves come from my own dysfunction having ADHD which also control me and make it difficult to do this for myself. In other words......they would happen if my wife was with me or not anyway and are not directly or caused by my wife or by my choice to either to them or not. To say it like this is that it is an indirect side effect of myself (ADHD) that is causing the problems using this as an example.
What you're talking about is someone who is having some kind of direct interpersonal control over you in a manipulative way and taking unfair advantage of his power or authority over you to get you to do something or direct your behavior in a way that is going against your will in some way. That's a horse of a different color. Any time you feel like you have no options and you are held captive by the situation with only one of two choices and they are both not what you want for yourself....something is wrong. If it's not circumstances that are doing this to you and the person you are with that is directly making things in every case....always going in their favor.......that right there means they are manipulating you against your will. People who are good at this can wield that as their power male or female.
I don't care what name you choose to use here.....that person is a bully. Straight up. Man or woman. It's not a fair fight if your hands are tied and that person is still keeps hitting you after you've told them to stop in a metaphorical sense.....but in the same token.....if I use myself here for a different example.....I'm being honest and up front with my wife and telling her that in these certain areas....I'm doing my best to meet her halfway and her demands and expectations of me (based on my limitations) are exceeding what I can do right now. That's not saying I will not improve in the future in a steady way....but not right this very minute or tomorrow.
With us.....it all has to do with her impatience which is driven by her own anxiety and dysfunction from her past and a lot of insecurity and mis beliefs of herself as well as me at times. When she walked into the house that I have owned for over 26 years of me being one way....and then suddenly finding myself without my ability to snap my fingers and undo 26 years of doing things wrong at the very beginning of our relationship....this became not only impossible for me to correct in the time that I was given (actually no time was given she just started losing it and going off on me in the process of correcting the situation)...full knowing about my ADHD ahead of time and then finding herself in a situation that was unacceptable to her. There was no hyper focus, beginning of the relationship and suddenly falling off the cliff with me this time. That was so far in my past I can barely remember it any more (more like my early to possibly mid twenties....a quarter of a century ago) None of that kind of thing came into play at all with us.
For us....this was a case that I tried my best to warn my wife ahead of time about all the contingencies I could think of on her behave....but not having any idea that her particualr needs in this aread were on the extreme side of any woman I have ever been with before. Having no experience with this myself....it left me at a loss of knowing what to do about it....
And.....what happened when my wife had reached here limit was to start pulling out these defensive coercive strategies and using them on me. It didn't take me too long to figure out what was happening and I began my quest to finding better ways to establish boundaries with a territorial predator! lol I am making light her by calling her that.....I actually see no nefarious intention of her part.....just a weakness and inability to resolve conflict herself and resorting to not doing this in a fair manner to me. All things considered.....instead of learning how to deal with me straight up and face to face like I have been trying to do....her default is going with what she knows. It's the same thing I see coming right from her own mother.
If I haven't said this before.....I really dislike her mother as a person. She's a bully and she tries to pull this same act on everyone else too. Women or men who behave like little children behave exactly the same and have never learned to grow up and use adult skills instead .....ADHD or not.
That's really the point that I was trying to make with you and I for one....have been guilty of behaving like a child in my past as an adult....just not anymore:) I expect the same from my wife emotionally. And she expect me to be that for her in the physical sense as well. You gotta pay to play.....and I think that is only fair but.....she seems to failing on her end more than I am right now in doing something about her part.
Being physically weaker is not excuse for being emotionally weak and immature. Are you fucking kidding me? lo I'm the one with child abuse from my past, ADHD, emotional lability and all the rest of it that goes along with everything else. What's her fucking excuse? lol
You know what she says? "I don't want to do this thing your doing and looking into my past....it just makes me depressed." Really? You could have fooled me! lol
She may be waiting for me to clean up after myself.....but I'm waiting on her to grow up and become an adult emotionally. In this way it seems.....I am way of ahead of her but I'm not putting a time limit on her either. This is one and only real requirement I have of her that I am not negotiable on. That is exactly why I do not acknowledge child like emotional behavior from her and ignore her when she behaves that way with me (like when she does the "silent treatment") " If you've got something to say.....say it to my face and be direct about it for crying out loud!"
And her answer to me in this moment....."well.....you could say no." I rest my case:)
J
Emotional maturity
Submitted by jennalemone on
It is funny that this week I have been Googling and learning about emotional intelligence. I am guilty of being emotional. As an artist I was encouraged to have emotions and "let it out" as they used to say. I thought that was living in truth as "this is me". As a child, there are pictures of me crying so I guess I tended to be emotionally immature for most of my life. I just let my emotions hang out without using them and letting them go. Here is a good definition of emotional intelligence:
Emotional maturity is defined by the ability to control your emotions and take full responsibility for your life along with its opportunities and dramas. A large part of being emotionally mature is having the ability to handle anger, disappointment, guilt, resentment, fear, jealousy, disappointment, grief, insecurity, and a myriad of other feelings appropriately. Emotional maturity is defined when you have the ability to experience these emotions and then quickly let them go. People who are immature seem to remain stuck in these negative emotions, unable to get past them.
I am working on this trying to be more aware and not FEELING so much. I used to cry like a baby and think I had no power - a victim.
Yes, the word "imperious" does fit me too. spot on. We learn by sharing.
This is Awsome Jenna
Submitted by kellyj on
I think part of emotional intelligence is recognizing that you really do "teach" others how to treat you by your own behaviors no matter who you are. I think this was a critical stage in my own learning process in recognizing this simple fact. That is the part about ADHD that you just have to accept whether you like it or not. Our behaviors themselves.....even though they are just symptoms of a different issue.....are the ones that teach people how to treat us. Accepting that we do this and understanding why we get the reactions from other people is so important in understanding where the problems we face come from and finding better way around them. And as much as we don't always like the treatment we receive from it.....to an acceptable degree.....we have to expect it and not take it personally and let it go.
When I am successful in doing this....I can move forward and not bring problems along with me. When I fail at doing this....I blame others for treating me in ways that I don't like and get stuck thinking negatively about myself and them at the same time.
The only thing I will say as a goal for you that I think is not only possible but totally obtainable...... you can be emotional as you like and don't have to trade in not feeling things deeply and having to protect yourself from being hurt....while at the same time....be in control of them. The more control you have....the more emotions you can express in healthy ways and not have it affect you or anyone else negatively.....and the better you will feel overall. You don't have to give up anything to do this rather....you get to have more of both by getting better at simply controlling them.
This is also the part that my wife does not understand yet. She thinks she's too emotional because she can't control her emotions but she doesn't know that you can do what I just said once you learn how. Learning how is what she is saying she doesn't want to do because it hurts her emotionally to do it. It's a paradox.
You won't know that until you get there...and to get there....you have to do the very thing that hurts and that you are afraid of. Sometimes....you just have t do it anyway to find this out but first....you have to stop talking yourself out of it in fear that it won't work. It will work and it does hurt sometimes....but that only last until you make this same discovery yourself. Liz has stated this in different words but I get from the comments she's made that whatever painful moments she has had to face in doing this for herself is now appearing to be not as bad and becoming much easier and enjoyable.
There you go. I could have said the exact same thing myself ( which I just did lol )
So Jenna.....use that thing you just discovered about being imperious. If you know it only sets him off....try not to do that. If you are being self righteous and thinking you shouldn't have to you are missing the boat. Just because he trips your triggers doesn't mean you have to do it back. That would be an emotionally intelligent thing to do and it will only serve you in the end not to do it. Any time you do something for what ever reason that is going against yourself in some way....you are not being emotionally intelligent. It will only teach your H to keep doing what he does and keep treating you poorly if he see's you doing this with him by setting him off and tripping his triggers. The end result only hurts you each time you do it.
Easier said than done. In the moment....all you want to do is get him back for hurting you. This may make you feel better in the moment....but it will only insight more bad to come back to you later and in on ongoing basis. Resist immediate gratification at all costs! lol Play chess with a checkers player instead of playing checkers with him:)
J
Pointing out failures....
Submitted by c ur self on
(But if I breathe one word of something between us that I am not happy with, WHAM! I'm "accusing" him of 16 things he would never do. I'm saying that he is lying to me, or I'm implying that he is...etc, etc.)
I wish I had all the answers for you ladies (and myself), but I will give you my thoughts and what is working for me...When a person's emotional state has been so formed that the reaction you are describing is the result of their spouse communicating dialog that is aimed to be only informative, doesn't their response SCREAM! I'm not hearing what you are speaking? Well it's becoming quiet obvious to me it's not what my wife is hearing. Let me ask a question right here, that may help in understanding this dynamic....Why do you think there isn't more add/adhd minded people posting here? My guess after reading a few posts that many of us call helpful and can understand completely (same language) they want no part of because we Non's don't understand them...And, they are right, we don't...Why do you think J has written so many small books trying to detail how his mind works, what he is learned and is learning about himself, his accomplishments in communication and just as importantly what we need to learn and accept when dealing with a fast mind...I know none us totally agree with each other, and even though there is much commonality in our relationships we are different also....But, I for one (and i know many more are also) am thankful for J and others w/ adhd who have given me a gift of in-site into how life works for them....
.We are right back to that human nature principle "people want to feel good about themselves" There is people who posts on this forum who deals with add/adhd everyday. I've come to the conclusion that my marriage relationship will take more work than most...A hard marriage doesn't = a bad marriage, not at all....When a person's mind is more subject to distraction, inattention, and poor short term memory than others, there will always be consequences. That's just a fact...
I find the refrigerator door ajar a few time a week, doors left unlocked all night, some times her key's still hanging in the lock...I woke up to P at 4:30 or 5 a week or so ago and she was dead to the world in front of the TV and she had left a candle burning in the kitchen...She leaves the bathroom destroyed, she leaves her dirty scrubs and panties where she steps out of them on and on....Pointing this stuff out can be tricky...I've started not pointing it out so much, she likes me better for it, and she works harder at trying to be aware...I did say something about the candle...calmly and once:)...Also I usually never touch her clothes in the floor any more, she will eventually get them...Lives in such a rush, (poor time management) she has no other option than to leave them or be late.... Let me just ask one question here...If I feel like I have to go behind her, and it is negatively impacting my emotions. Who's fault is it? So many fights have been started by me, telling her, her problems....
The moral of this story is...I can accept the reality of the relationship and focus more on c ur self, and making sure I control my own emotions, and live each day thankful and look for all the good in my wife or I can use my self-righteous constructive words to tell her how she is broken....It's my choice....
C
its just so hard to choose myself in this situation. It's not in
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
<<<
its just so hard to choose myself in this situation. It's not in my nature to put myself first... Or to demand that I be put first. I see now, and I've seen it for awhile, if I don't I'll never be treated fairly, respected, or have any of my needs met. I take blame for not stopping this earlier. I take blame for being blind to the red flags when I saw them. But I know if I don't choose myself, he never will. He will continue to take from me, mentally, financially, emotionally, and physically. I just have to accept it.
<<<
This is what I truly believe.... I think that those of us who naturally "do things for others," are often CHOSEN by those who WANT that type of person because THEY know that our types won't dump them like others have in the past or they suspect others would.
My brother in law is 65 and has never worked, even though he is very smart and university and grad school educated. He could have EASILY had a 6 figure job in his field. But, he didn't want to work. He wanted to stay home (not do housewife stuff) and play video games, etc. So, he began dating a professional woman (highly paid), who desperately wanted to get married and have children, but wasn't someone that most men find attractive. (PLEASE NOTE: I'm NOT suggesting that many of us here aren't attractive!!! lol This was just THEIR dynamic...she was a well-paid professional who never had been on a date even though she was at least 26, and she wanted marriage/children, she knew that she wasn't attractive, so she knew she couldn't be picky. He, although very educated, didn't want to work, so he needed a woman who would provide NICELY for him, so he sought someone who was desperate enough to put up with his ways. So, a match was made.)
My H knew that he didn't know how to do many things outside of his professional job besides sports, so he was attracted to me because I (according to him) could do everything and was attractive. I was used to taking care of siblings, so I was used to taking care of people. I was attracted to him because he is good-looking, smart, funny, great career, and the "ugly side" hadn't revealed itself (his NPD charming side was on display; the ugly BPD/NPD side didn't reveal until much later....and only in bits here and there.)
So, that's how many of us find ourselves in this situation. The "takers" know that most people will reject them. They have to find "givers."
Hi..OWW
Submitted by c ur self on
Your husband is a lucky man...A beautiful wife who can do everything...Nice!...LOL...Seriously though I just wanted to say I agree with you on this one...I think if you look around it becomes obvious that people do select mates based on "What they feel they are getting in the person" But, I would also add that when a marriage relationship becomes troubled and the conflict starts...It's when one or both feel they are not getting what they deserve AND announces it verbally or with negative actions....
I think based on what my wife has said, and the way she lives and conducts her life, she was attracted to me because I was a stable widower, (stable at the time) LOL, a believer, a man who had been employed at the same job for 32 years, I was in good shape, and she thought I was handsome, but short, we are both around 5' 8" (she is 1/8th inch shorter than me, but tells everyone she's is taller:))..LOL...I also, had two wonderful married daughters that she admired.... I think the things that scared her was I talked almost as much as she did...Was as opinionated as she was, And my house was clean LOL...
Merry Christmas!
C
Sorry, but how do you delete your own comment?
Submitted by TellTaleArt on
I cannot figure out how to delete an accidentally posted double comment. Is there no option?
It's true. It's a vicious
Submitted by TellTaleArt on
It's true. It's a vicious cycle that we have been living in for almost seven years. He is only nice after a tantrum. When I'm still sad and afraid to trust him, he is all kissy-feely (always the way he likes it and ignoring the ways I like to be touched or talked to, of course) and when I warm up to him, it takes him two or three days to "unwind"- he gets more and more gloomy, brisk and abrupt with me, then starts to snap at me, than goes berserk at a drop of a hat-usually after my attempts to ask for the smallest favour, or talk to him during one of his endless.TV watching couch sessions. He gets angry, twists my words into things I never thought or said, to my request to help out with things I can't do due to my disability and recent surgery changes the subject into attack on my personal qualities -"Could you please clean the floor, I can't do it." -"You never do anything! You are so lazy!" After hours of trying to communicate I'm in tears, and walks around and he teases me telling me how I'm "overreacting to everything".., follows me around the house yelling or "punishes" me with threatening to take away my medication, denying me any help for days ( I was just lying with a fever with raw stitches on my belly in another room for three days, and he checked on me once in 15 hours, to tell me how "crazy" I am. Today I discovered he lost my Medicaid card, you got it, he blamed me. ) It's only pseudo good when he sees me recovering from these terrible, meaningless fights. And in public. In public he is all knight in shiny armour. He is also no stranger to physical abuse. If I was healthy, I would leave. I know how it feels, and nobody deserves such an unhappy, scary life like this. This is not love.
It's true. It's a vicious
Submitted by TellTaleArt on
It's true. It's a vicious cycle that we have been living in for almost seven years. He is only nice after a tantrum. When I'm still sad and afraid to trust him, he is all kissy-feely (always the way he likes it and ignoring the ways I like to be touched or talked to, of course) and when I warm up to him, it takes him two or three days to "unwind"- he gets more and more gloomy, brisk and abrupt with me, then starts to snap at me, than goes berserk at a drop of a hat-usually after my attempts to ask for the smallest favour, or talk to him during one of his endless.TV watching couch sessions. He gets angry, twists my words into things I never thought or said, to my request to help out with things I can't do due to my disability and recent surgery changes the subject into attack on my personal qualities -"Could you please clean the floor, I can't do it." -"You never do anything! You are so lazy!" After hours of trying to communicate I'm in tears, and walks around and he teases me telling me how I'm "overreacting to everything".., follows me around the house yelling or "punishes" me with threatening to take away my medication, denying me any help for days ( I was just lying with a fever with raw stitches on my belly in another room for three days, and he checked on me once in 15 hours, to tell me how "crazy" I am. Today I discovered he lost my Medicaid card, you got it, he blamed me. ) It's only pseudo good when he sees me recovering from these terrible, meaningless fights. And in public. In public he is all knight in shiny armour. He is also no stranger to physical abuse. If I was healthy, I would leave. I know how it feels, and nobody deserves such an unhappy, scary life like this. This is not love.
NPD?
Submitted by jlhrva on
Hi TellTale,
This behavior you are describing sounds more like the scary end of NPD than a typical ADHD experience. It also makes me feel like kind of a jerk for expressing my frustrations with communicating with my ADHD partner...you have much more serious, and if I may say, potentially dangerous?, issues at hand.
Threats, intimidation, and/or physical altercations are not the typical stuff of ADHD.
I hope that you are able to find some resources for yourself...I am not the best person to offer suggestions, but if it were me I would start with personal therapy in conjunction with reaching out to social services, and any other support groups for your illness/disability that you can find...
Love and all the best to you...
J
He stopped physical abuse...
Submitted by TellTaleArt on
This is likely NPD or Borderline PD......ADHD is just minor.
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
This is far more serious than ADHD. I know because (except for the physical abuse), my Borderline PD husband can behave in a similar manner. It wasn't really obvious at first, but after 20 years of marriage, he became an alcoholic and he got MUCH worse in frequency. Before that, his outbursts were more rare, they still happened, but they were rare. Once he became an alcoholic, the frequency went from once or twice a year to every week or every few days.
So many of these types end up turning to booze or other controlled substances and become addicted. Booze make things MUCH worse. While THEY think the booze helps them cope with their pain and (in my H's case) helps him get to sleep, booze just removes any inhibitions that they did possess. My H did have "some control" before booze, which is why he could seem normal 99% of the time....and he RARELY ever drank back then....rarely. But, then around the 15 year mark, we began enjoying a glass of wne at night, and for him, it grew from there to hard liquor. He has an addictive personality.
OW In Light of My Last Comment
Submitted by kellyj on
and sorry for being so long....it's a tough concept to explain. I'm speculating here a little but I think what you are saying about your H's drinking may be more relevant than you might think. Without the inhibitions he would have otherwise....I think the alcoholic is really showing a great deal more of his true persona than you were seeing before. Without the "decorum" he may have had before....what you are seeing is more of this role or persona that is playing in his head and actually further away from who he might truly be. Unfortunately....is he won't go to therapy and keep going to find out otherwise....it will be difficult at this point to try and get him to see this.
Does he change personalities when he drinks? I mean a dramatic shift from one person to another person? There are (if I remember?) 5 or 6 different personality types when people drink? Not just an inebriated version of yourself which is just looser and less inhibited. I'm talking more of a Jeckle and Hyde type dramatic shift or change?
This really drives me nuts with my wife. She does this when she drinks and I really don't care for the person that she becomes. In fact....not at all. I tend not to want to drink around her much unless it's just a beer or single drink. She (can be) really no fun to be around when she drinks and her brother is the same way. If anything....I'm more or less a "happy" drunk if I ever get there anymore. My wife and her brother just seem to get belligerent and obnoxious. Something that I have never found attractive when people drink too much and can't seem to handle their liquor. Now I'm thinking....there is more to it than that?
J
I just saw JJ's response.....
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
Yes, I agree.
When I met my H, he rarely ever drank...maybe one drink with me every 2 or more months. Then, as we began entertaining more, I began buying more alcohol (beer, wine, liquor) to have for guests. I kept the liquor in a bar cabinet and would rarely check it.
In hindsight, H's behavior became more erradiic when he drank. The booze would change him, or release inhibitions. When we had been married for about five years, we spent the evening with some good friends of ours, at their home. They served alcohol and I didn't think anything about that. We all had a couple glasses of wine and some liqueurs. No one seemed "drunk." Late into the evening, my H said a couple of very rude and "out of character" things to the wife. I had never heard H be rude o anther person before. In hindsight, the booze likely weakened his inhibitions.
This is likely NPD or Borderline PD......ADHD is just minor.
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
duplicate post
Physical abuse is back again.
Submitted by TellTaleArt on
I know it has been many months since I checked in, but my husband has physically attacked me again, and has put bruises on me, only a week before my large fibroid surgery. He of course told his parents it was for "my own good", that he allegedly "tried to stop me from walking barefoot out on the porch". In reality, I was trying to escape his cussing and screaming, and he grabbed me and slammed me against the door. He took time off to "care for me", and now I'm, disabled and with bleeding staples in my belly, left alone in the room to fend for myself while he watches tv with his parents. I also spent two hellish days in the hospital where he was supposed to help me around, but instead slept and gorged himself on fast food while I struggled on my own. He won't even call a nurse when I was in pain. Please, do not trust abusers. ADD or no ADD.
Telltaleart
Submitted by honeyblonde on
i am by no means the best person to respond as there are many other members that have so much more experience and information on these types of situations. I just wanted to respond. This site is sort of a "help line" for me and it's good to know someone is out there. It seems like people such as your husband, and mine, get particularly hateful when we are most vulnerable. I don't know your situation, but I understand trying to get away from cursing, screaming, and generally aggressive out of control behavior. The only thing you can do is remove yourself from the "reach" of him. It probably seems impossible or that that it would be harder to be alone or without his "help" but being slammed into a wall or door is much worse. Leaving or calling the police for him to leave is scary, but it will work out. You can find the help you need with other resources. Churches, friends, neighbors, and government resources. You don't need him. You can do this all on your own, and I'm sure you have people that care... Even if it doesn't feel that way. The best medicine for you is to take control of this and help yourself by getting away from him, either by calling the police, social services or friends or family. It will be better in the long runs and you will show him that you are strong without him... And remind yourself that you can do this without his so called "help".
I find myself having to be reminded that my former self, younger self, pre-abuse self wouldn't take this for a second. You are still in there, you just have to dig a little deeper to find that woman you used to be!
Best of luck and you can do this!
I know
Submitted by TellTaleArt on
Excuses and reasons
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
Honeyblonde,
I have been specifically thinking about PMS and ADHD. Both are used to describe a certain list of symptoms that cause disturbances in our daily life. While some are minor irritants, some make a mess of our ability to find happiness. We cannot 'wish away' ADHD nor PMS/PMDD.
Prior to understanding PMDD and ADHD, there were some really bad patterns of behavior that had developed in my marriage.
My PMS was severe, Premenstrual dysphoric disorder, - PMDD. It did not MAKE my brain dislike things, or get irritated at things - but it truly DID magnify how they affected Liz. As an example, it was annoying to have my spouse not show up for dinner - if my spouse didn't show up for dinner during those 10 days of PMDD, my reaction was close to wanting to smack him up side the head, If my spouse charged supplies and didn't let me know so I could work the amount into the budget, that threw my bookkeeping off. During those 10 days of PMDD, I wanted to strangle him for being so inconsiderate to my hard work on our finances.
Time blindness from ADHD is an explanation - NOT an Excuse.
PMDD is an explaination for a highly charged response - NOT an excuse.
Neither one really deals with the issue at hand anyway:
1. What to do about getting to appointments on time.
2. What to do about dealing with the affect that unforeseen costs had on a budget.
A person with time blindness needs to take responsibility for how it affect them - NOT blame everyone else for being upset when they were late or didn't show up.
Having PMDD is NOT an excuse for being rude. Finding the medication to curb the harshness, advising people you are having a bad-day, and request they leave you alone , are some ways to take responsibility for your own actions.
I spent years thinking my own crazy emotional responses had to do with my eating disorders and the affect of growing up in an alcoholic home.
Then I spent years thinking all the struggles I had with my spouse were his ADHD.
We cannot go back and re-do our life. for too many years, I erroneously took responsibility for everything negative that happened. It really and truly NEVER OCCURRED to me that my spouse may have had a few things he needed to work on - I just volunteered to be the scape-goat. Period.
I continue to HOPE beyond hope that our relationship will rebound. Now, I am only doing Liz's side of her own responsibilities, and TRYING not to determine what the heck is bothering my spouse. What I can say, with kindness and honesty is that some of the communication patterns truly suck.
I choose not to attempt processes that had poor results in the past. If I do not see some reason to believe things will be different, I do not go down that road - not ever. Because I know there is a deep dark hole that I will fall into, and it will take me a long time to climb out of it.
What I know - Liz is not a reason, or excuse that anyone else is miserable, sad, or unhappy. I no longer volunteer to be that reason.
Wisdom. Liz has acquired wisdom.
Very truly,
Liz
"I can only do me"
Submitted by jlhrva on
"Now, I am only doing Liz's side of her own responsibilities, and TRYING not to determine what the heck is bothering my spouse. "
___
I agree with Liz :) (even in the third person)! This is a radical new concept that my therapist and Al Anon have recently introduced to me. Seems that you are 'related' to me from the aspect of growing up in an alcoholic home as well. My therapist sent me to ACOA, and if you need support or an outlet and there is a good group near you, I would highly recommend it. I am just getting started there, but MAN. These people GET IT. And many of them have had personal relationships that mimic or mirror our experiences with ADHD partners, because those of us with dysfunctional pasts tend to seek unhealthy partners in ways that we don't even recognize.
That said...trying to determine what was bothering him used to cause me this all-consuming anxiety. When i first started posting here, almost a year ago now, I was drowning in trying to take responsibility for both sides of this. I've stopped. And it has painted so much light into my life and our relationship.
Now...I get that it's not my job to fix or help him. What I'm struggling with is how to communicate to him that his part of the problem - the reactivity, the personalizing, the defensiveness and combativeness, is REAL. If I could just find the right way to convey this. To show him that the way he receives communication from me is not objective and dispassionate, is not supportive of me. He can't see it. And I don't feel like I will ever be able to get to closure, either within or without the relationship, whether it works or it doesn't, until I know that I have communicated what I mean.
...I still don't know what to do.
I'm curious, are either of
Submitted by honeyblonde on
I'm curious, are either of your spouses medicated? Have they found anything that works? If so, are they committed to it, or is it just another struggle and another responsibility for you?
Ive come to the (hopeful) understanding that until he is medicated and stabilized he will not recognize any of this. I believe at this point it is beyond his capabilities.
Although i worry that it will be yet another struggle of control and opposition. I also worry that the process of finding the right meds will also be a challenge.
I'm not afraid to leave the situation or marriage. I won't have a child in this home and I won't continue to be disrespected and mistreated no matter what the reason is. I under no circumstances will allow any further financial debt due to avoidance or lies. I will leave if there is no progress, so one than later. I can't help someone who isn't going to help himself. No matter how hard I may try.
Ill ill choose me eventually, but I committed to this for better or worse... And I'll honor that for now or as long as there is progress.
I guess my main question is, is there hope with meds and therapy?
Another question... I realize that there is a sort of "habit" in choosing partners that aren't interested (or capable) in meeting my needs... I'll own that and continue to work on it. Did I choose this type of relationship unconsciously? Is this a symptom of an emotionally neglectful childhood? I know the surface issues are his ADHD, ( finances, tantrums, lying etc) but realistically, is it our combination that is making it so hard? My very first boyfriend was ADHD...20 years ago. I seem to get caught in the hyper focus trap at the beginning of the relationship. The intensive caring and attention seemed to fill the holes but then the rug gets pulled out from under me and Im back to the neglectful, disfunctional one sided relationship.
Symptom/Habit
Submitted by jlhrva on
I think that to extent we do select for these types of partners, subconsciously, or sometimes even actively. The approval and affirmation and fulfillment of being able to meet someone's needs and feeling needed/wanted/essential is an irresistible lure to those of us who spent lonely childhoods starved for affection. And the hyper-focus phase makes it VERY difficult to even see that there is an underlying issue, let alone how bad it can get.
When I first met my partner, I would never have DREAMED that he could be the kind of person who would have a rage blow-up like he does. He was the most even-keel, rational, sensitive guy I had/have ever met. (He still is, unless we are having a conflict). It didn't happen at all for almost a year. Now...it's like he feels like he has permission to do it...? That I understand that it's not directed at me, so he can let down his guard, or something...?
I think it's much more difficult for us to be aware of and in touch with our needs. so it's correspondingly more difficult to select a partner who will meet them. We tend to be a bit chameloeon-like, emotionally. We adapt and wrap ourselves around our chosen partner. Their needs become our needs. Meeting their needs fulfills our need to receive affirmation and acceptance...
I'm still working on it, but I would encourage you with so much love to seek out ACOA/Al-Anon. THESE PEOPLE GET IT.
I'm sorry it's been so long.
Submitted by TellTaleArt on
I'm sorry it's been so long. No, my husband is not medicated. Yes, I now believe as my third relationship is falling apart that its my fault for falling for a certain type of person because of childhood trauma. This type is emotionally scarred, with some traumatic event in the past, has serious mental issues, and has narcissistic traits. I seem to subconsciously, and even consciously, want to be loved, and at first these people are just that, very, very attentive and charming. Later, they become very cruel and unkind, clearly enjoying the pain they cause, just like my father. My father was very abusive to my mother, emotionally and physically. Then he left after cheating on her for 14 years, giving her a bunch of diseases, being the cause of her early hysterectomy. He never loved me or bothered to visit me, on rare occurrences when my mother forced him to spend time with me, he went into a rage over something trivial a child would do, and was always annoyed with my presence. As a small child, I basically became a constant emotional support for my ever crying mother, to the point that I had to skip events at school, hanging out of with friends, I wasn't paid much attention to, really, unless I was willing to run after my mom with medication and agree to her constant lectures on how terrible my father was. They both spent 20 years trying to train me how horrific the other ex is; my father talking trash about my mother, mothert-about my father. Later, they both simply abandoned me when I dared to become chronically ill. I wish I knew all these things before, only now I'm starting to read and understand more. I should have tried to look critically at who seems attractive to me. Dysfunctional families really ruin their children's future.
Whether it works or it doesn't,
Submitted by kellyj on
until I know that I have communicated what I mean....I still don't know what to do.
jlhrva......I don't mean to follow you around here but everything you have just said is what I keep saying as well. My T did tell me a few things and brought me to where I am now with this communicating issue that my wife and I have (sounds like the exact same one we share here...to the letter)
In a session together privately...I brought this up with him. He said first.....no matter what comes out of her mouth is all defense of some kind...you can chalk it all up to that. So what do I do? He said.." nothing." Just listen. But but but....what about all the turd balls that she keeps slinging at me even when I don't do anything? He said..."say what you mean to say and don't add anything else into it...just leave it there no matter what she say back." This I have found is very hard to do but I keep doing it. It's very one sided. Either I get silence....or turd balls thrown at me. What I want is her to say what she means back to me as a response but that never seems to come?? All I can do is wait. Wait some more......still waiting??? I still don't know what to do either?
My T did say this as a course of action. He said to "nurture" the response I want out of her. I get that he means model or set the example I want from her by not saying anything even is she mud slings. I get she is baiting me into these kinds of situations and unconsciously...she is trying to get me into one of these confrontations with her so she can blame me for being the one who started it. Baiting is the perfect word. To make me slip up so she can go "see...your the one who's wrong not me." This is the exact thing that happens too. By doing nothing...she still tries and keeps trying any time I mention something on her part that I don't like or that she is actually doing wrong.
Nothing does help in reducing these moments....but it very hard to see this as it really is and not get angry at her attempts at baiting me into a confrontation that she clearly is attempting to do for the very reason to give her some ammo against me. She on the other hand....is free to mud sling and throw turd balls at will. I guess the deal is what you are saying......this is an ingrained pattern from her own family and is exactly what they do any time someone is called out for doing something wrong. Blame and pointing fingers is what they do best. I am not very skilled here and I never want to be but.....that still leaves you as having to put up with it each time it happens and I definitely don't like it. It even makes me more angry when I see that this is what she is attempting to do even if she doesn't realize it.
Which is also why my T said....do nothing. I said the same thing to him..."do you know hard that is to do?" He said "hard?" and I stopped him before he went into his "hard" speech again which I've heard it many times already.
All I said was....."we're right back to where we started huh?" He said "yep.....do nothing and leave it there.... not a single word." Don't engage and leave it right there. I can't tell you how hard it is to do nothing when you are getting pelted with turd balls!! ( insults, accusations and unnecessary shitty comments)
Whether it works or it doesn't, until I know that I have communicated what I mean.......I still don't know what to do? Wait I guess? These are my words now for what it's worth?
J
This is all too familiar.
Submitted by honeyblonde on
This is all too familiar. The baiting. Watching someone behave badly, then really provoking me to behave worse to avoid their responsibility.
We are all saying the exact same things. I hear myself in your words... And feel the exact same confusion and chaos.
Baiting...
Submitted by jlhrva on
Wow. That was a lightbulb moment, J.
Is he? Baiting me?
I don't want to think of him as the kind of person who would be doing that...even subconsciously. But you really may be right.
I've often felt like I was on the verge of seeing something about his behavior. How he tries to twist every discussion/conflict into something that will fit his presentation of how I always escalate things, misinterpret things, etc. I've even pointed out several times that these behaviors of mine don't occur until a midpoint in a discussion over something else, that started with him. But he will ignore me, citing it as a symptom of my unwillingness to address the issues I bring into this. And for the record, I am in therapy personally, and I am HUGELY willing, as a human being, let alone a caring partner, to address absolutely anything that is legitimate about me and/or that I need to improve - and there are lots of things. BUT - I keep hearing this tape loop about repeating the same conversation over and over...Is it the same conversation because he is baiting me into this area?
Is it actually just trying to push the discussion (I refuse to say 'argument', because I am not arguing...just trying to understand) into "territory he controls"? Could he be doing this without realizing it?
What would happen if I just do nothing? Give up the attempt to help him understand, just say my piece and then leave it alone, don't respond?
I think he would leave. I think he would say that if I can't see what it is that I'm systemically and repeatedly doing (as I usually say I do to take responsibility and end the conflict), then we can't make it work.
I think you may be right. I think that might be why I'm constantly puzzled by the leaps of logic and association...he's directing this into a pattern where he can get me to "mess up".
Recognizing Baiting Was Key
Submitted by kellyj on
for me in stop engaging with my wife. Once I could see that this was what was happening....it told me what to do. Don't get sucked into it. That's why the conversations are endless with no resolution. The conversation is meaningless. It's what the conversation is attempting to do that is most important. I have to interpret a bit when my wife and I go into our sessions together. I've been seeing him for so long I know when he brings out the same conversation with us as he did in the past.....I recognize both.....that he's not saying it for my benefit any more (I've long since needed that any more)...and that he's doing it for my wife now and for me which tells me what he is trying to do without him having to explain it to me. In context....i get where he's going. I also get that's why he doing it this way. She will defend against him too if he were to try the direct approach. I see him doing it and do the same thing he's doing but....she doesn't throw crap back at him like me since he's not the one she is trying to get something out of. Something she feels she's not getting but....like I said....within reason, most adult don't need that much attention paid to them to feel like they are loved.
So far...this is what I have learned in context when I watch how he approaches my wife. Nothing is direct....he stay's completely away from perceived accusations. To the point....he focuses on me and goes back and repeats many things that I haven't heard for years. That's my cue to know that this is her trigger. Perceived or imagined wrong doing which only sets her off. He stays away from that very well and uses me instead. This is all very helpful since these things just don't cause me to react anymore especially from him. It really is a pain in the ass sometimes to watch everything you say so closely and not just be comfortable but....it's also helped learn how to do this better in general. I have had plenty of negativity (sarcasm and cynical) language in more of an habitual form from being around salespeople all my life (even though I was not in sales). That environment is ripe with cynicism and it is infectious after a while. I just got use to it I guess and adapted that as a way of speaking. I have found that this was also a trigger for my wife without realizing that it was even effecting her at first. For me....this was just a way of talking that I was so use to it didn't even occur to me at first. I'm more or less indifferent when I am around it but it's also not the best way to speak effectively. Sales people in general seem to absorb a lot double talking sarcasm and cynicism as a way of speaking all the time. I think it's a habit for me and less a need to be that way.
I know this may sound like a ridiculous thing to do (that you shouldn't have to) but....I have found that if I admit something first to my wife even if I am not doing it...and then speak to her about a problem I am having with her...she will allow a certain amount of something that might be considered a complaint or grievance even if she doesn't respond back with any admission on her part. She will come and say she's sorry but it's never specific. More like..."I'm sorry for being so difficult" That's as close as an apology for anything specific as I get but.....it is sincere and the thought behind it is genuine. I take that as her trying and I don't fault her for not being more specific.
In fact....here's a short list of what works with my wife. it can't hurt to give this a try and it's not that difficult to do only.....you have to do it even when your are getting pelted sometimes. The bigger person part. You just have to do it and let that go and not expect it back. The goal is just to keep the conversation from going south. This does work by the way as much as it's not always easy to remember to do ALL the time! lol
Start each conversation with some positive affirmation about your spouse. Praise! Lots of praise!
Then...before saying anything to the contrary about your spouse....admit anything about yourself that you see as wrong or wrong doing. Straight up....even if it's not necessary or warranted to the conversation. This way....they are already built them up and you already confirmed that you are wrong in some way first. This is the key here....admit you are wrong first always!!!
Then....carefully with very well chosen words....tell them that you are having difficulty with something. This is saying.....I have a problem not you.
Then....after saying you have a problem....you ask them for help. You still haven't said what you want from them but you are now asking them to come to your aid and you haven't complained about anything that they are doing.
Finally....if you did that well and they are with you so far....you tell them that this thing that they do really cause you a lot of anxiety ( not hurt....saying they hurt you will only set them off) For me...I start out by saying that I suffer from a lot of anxiety and this is my problem. (even though...anxiety is not my big issue it';s hers. I have my moments but I also control it pretty well. She know this too so I just confirmed that it's all about my anxiety and will she please help me?
The response I get each time I get to that point is for her to first...tell me how what she did was because of me...or because of the dog...or because of the cat...or because of her hard day.....or because of the mailman who dropped some mail on the ground.....or because of this and that and everything else that cause her to react poorly to me. This...you just have to sit and listen too until it's done. No way around this I'm afraid. This may sound terrible...but during this part of me trying to tell her something that she did to hurt or offend me.....I sing the Flintstones song in my head....or any other jiggle or song...just so I don't start to ramp up while she downloads all the ways it was not her fault....this part I don't need to here and is telling me nothing anyway. Going to my happy place momentarily keeps me from reacting! lol) If you can follow these steps I just took.....this part of what she has to say is just rationalizing and BS anyway. Since I recognize this for what it is.....if I listen to it for too long I start to get irritated. If she sees this while I'm listening to her...this will send her on a tangent. Flintstones theme song always makes me smile anyway! "Wiiiilma!!" lol What ever works right?
Once she has clearly stated that it was not her fault in any way and has cited all her reason of why she had to do it (to me lol ) and why she had to get angry and react to me (even if it wasn't me and it was the dog or cat).....sometimes that's as good as it gets and I just leave it there like my T suggested.
But....I do think some of it she hears. If I do nothing....she will get a piece of what I'm saying. One little piece at a time. That's all she can let in before she starts to spiral.
So doing nothing in this way and just allowing everything to come out and not calling them on anything does work. Going around the back door and saying I have anxiety issues and this is my problem will you help me with this is about as indirect as one can possibly get but....it does seem to work for the most part but not every time. I never know just how much she let's in or gets but I think this strategy does work. The problem with this is that you are admitting each time that it was you who did these things first before they will hear anything that they (might have done)...maybe. " Let me think about that and get back to you"...which of course...never happens. I think it's that they just can't say it even if they know it's true. Making them say it is not going to happen. Get over that one if you want to keep the peace. That's what I have found that is just the way it is for now. I have seen this get better and so I do know that this works. I'm using my T's example in better ways to do this but so far....he is emphasizing just listening to it all and not reacting or saying any back to refute or rebut in anyway not matter how hard it is to do.
I just wanted to say that when I tune out when she starts to list the excuses is only for my sanity...otherwise, I can't sit there and listen to BS for too long before I can't stand it any longer and have to say something. Otherwise when she is not doing this....I listen very closely and try and understand what she is trying to tell me. That part tells me nothing and only pisses me off more. That's how I get around it and not show on my face that I think she's full of crap during these moments. I'm not a good actor so I need some kind of prop to get me into my role! lol
J
Flintstones
Submitted by jlhrva on
I'm going to try the Flintstones song. I usually just count, when I'm "waiting out the crazy", as I refer to it. The 16 reasons that even though he's sorry for whatever he did to cause and escalate the situation, it was REALLY my fault for ... x,y,z.
Latest time was the morning after one of his late night rage-outs - breathing machine was not working properly, so it needed to be thrown through the wall, then jump out of bed, throw covers off of me, flip light on, yank closet open, punch closet door, get dressed, storm out of bedroom, slamming door behind. I'm supposed to just go back to sleep after these, btw..."it's not directed at me", so I should be absolutely fine. However, I was raised in a house with a violent alcoholic and have also been in a physically abusive relationship. Being around rage puts me into a bad place, mentally, emotionally...it's not good.
Next morning, he comes into the bedroom being super-passive, hesitant, etc. And, as an aside, this just honestly really upsets me. Don't act like you can't approach me, or like there's some reason to be behaving as though I 'kicked the dog'...YOU had the rage-out. I cowered in the bedroom and pretended not to notice. As per usual. There's NO reason to start acting like an emotional victim here. Really.
So he's being hesitant, passive, puts his hand on my leg, and I flinch away. Absolutely unconscious reaction. I had no control over it whatsoever. So he flings himself off of the bed & storms out of the room, yells "FINE, then!" over his shoulder.
I follow him into the kitchen and ask what in the world is causing this. He's combative and nasty and says I'm "yanking away from him". I explain that I'm sorry, this was instinctive, that I think maybe my mind wasn't sure if he wanted to touch me, etc...He just blows up. "You shouldn't be deciding whether or not I want to touch you; that's not something you can know. You don't have any place making this assumption about me...you shouldn't have reacted like that...etc, etc."
This sends me into a full-blown anxiety/panic attack. And for ONCE, he seems this and actually behaves sympathetically, instead of telling me to leave him alone. Actually hugs me and rocks with me. Then, I have to leave the room to go throw up. When I come back, he's in a chair, arms crossed, closed off, back to 'normal' expression. In mid-anxiety, I say something imperfect, like 'can't you still hold me"? And he blows up again - "if you want me to hold you, it's your job to come to me. Why should I have to be the one to..."
So...I'll try the Flintsones. I'm dealing with someone who can watch me have a panic attack, and yell into my face that it's MY job to seek out what I need, even in that circumstance. Like I can or something.
And he still doesn't see the double standard in saying that he CAN'T control his rage, so that should be accommodated and forgiven, but expecting me to have the perfect control to be able to do so at all times. I'm responsible for every aspect of my own self-care, even in crisis. But he is not responsible for his.
He came home later in the day and wrote me a letter. Said he wanted to apologize for "what happened this morning", followed by 3 legal pad pages on why it was MY fault that this happened. Basically "I'm sorry you had an anxiety attack, but you wouldn't have had one if you hadn't...etc, etc"
Seeing that incident in the light of your baiting revelation...he wanted me to follow him into the kitchen, so he could accuse me of escalating/pursuing a 'confrontation' (nevermind that he started it in the bedroom, or that it was really a result of his behavior the night before). So I should have gone for the Flintstones instead of anxiety attack. He was just trying to manufacture a conflict that he could direct into being my fault, so he wouldn't have to take responsibility for the rage-out form the night before.I shouldn't have given him any ammo. The anxiety attack derailed his 'plan' (which I don't think was or ever is a consciously made plan). This conflict dragged out for another full day of him icing me out and me trying not to mention his obviously abnormal behavior. I ended it the next day by agreeing to every point in his letter, so that we could go to dinner for my brother's girlfriend's birthday without him sulking and sitting in the corner on his cell phone the entire time. It was worth it.
Flintsones. I'm gonna start loving that song.
Yabba Dabba Doo lol
Submitted by kellyj on
Too funny. Even writing that made me laugh....I don't think I ever saw that actually written out which makes it even funnier....don't ask me why? lol
Hey...I was reading this article on Ambilalant Attachment recently (for obvious reasons)...and when I read what you just wrote I went mmmm.....that's sounds familiar? I looked up the article I read and saw why. Here's the introduction just to start with..
Ambivalent Attachment
Current attachment literature identifies three categories of insecure (unhealthy) attachment:ambivalent, avoidant, and disorganized. In this article, we will focus on one style --Ambivalent.
Ambivalent attachment develops when a caregiver is inconsistent in her emotional and physical availability to the child; at times the caregiver is accessible and at other times preoccupied. This discrepancy causes the child to remain focused on the caregiver, actively seeking her attention by behaving in a fussy or clingy manner.
Informally, ambivalent attachment is called push/pull as children want contact with their parent,yet also resist that contact. When children engage in push/pull behavior, they emotionally or physically push their caregiver away and once distance is accomplished, they immediately attempt to pull her back. Does the child know she is pushing you away while scrambling to attain your return? Children are aware of the impulse to push you away and the panic they feel when space is realized, but they do not understand the underlying causes of their behavior.
My wife is the adult version of this and it fits well in what I know of her past. What I know without question is the push pull thing. That's easy on my end to diagnose!I on the other hand lean more in favor of either preoccupied or avoidant and am actually a combination of the two. Both of my parents being one or the other with my Mom who leaned definitely on the preoccupied side of things. This is more of a personality style I have in relationships. For my parents I think especially my father...he was avoidant....distant, cold. calculating and emotionally vacant except for anger and rage. My mom was preoccupied but not as extreme as my dad was with his issues. I can say the same thing for my wife but she has a more severe and more distinct flavor to her attachment issues than I do. Plus.....it feels like most of what I had going on in this area I have addressed through therapy.
Having said that.....this push pull thing is really tough to be in a relationship with. Every time I get close....she pushes me away which only hurts my feelings. Every time I get too distant, she pulls me back and starts to get clingy and demanding and very controlling, bossy and demanding. Here's another explanation for an adult with this kind of unhealthy attachment style...
Ambivalent Adults. Preoccupied Style
These individuals have a preoccupied state of mind with respect to attachment. They have over-detailed stories and continue to re-experience past hurts and rejections in a manner suggesting a lack of resolution. These adults had parents who alternated between warmth and availability and coldness and rejection for no apparent reason. Ambivalent adults are bossy and controlling and do not like rules and authority. They are impatient, critical and argumentative. They like to "stir the pot" and often sabotage getting what they want. They also can be creative, exciting, adventuresome, and charming.
What do you think jlhrva? I think this fits my wife to a T. When you described your H getting up and throwing his breathing machine through the wall in the morning and started slamming around while you were still in bed trying to sleep. I think with the added Testosterone....my wife might have done the very same things in her own version of this. I can be asleep.....doing nothing.....doing something.....it doesn't matter. When she goes off or something sets her off....I never know exactly what did it. She will blame me of course but I look at the situation and I'm just not seeing it.
The thing that is really tough is the inconsistency of it but it comes in the form of either one or the other. I am inconsistent....but that has more to do with things like house chores, being late etc....all the normal ADHD stuff. Emotionally however.....I stay pretty level and am remarkably consistent from day to the next with only the occasional mild depression that usually means I need to slow down and get some rest to recover from something. But even when I'm sick or depressed...I can still manage to not bite everyone head off and go on a tangent just because I don't feel well. Like I said....when it comes to my emotional state....it takes a lot to get me going normally.
This push pull thing is one of them though......that can really make you question yourself and what is going on. I realized that I was trying to follow her and track her by mirroring her which only made me more confused than less. What I do? I avoid her entirely or keep myself preoccupied. A very weird mix between the two which only exacerbates her even if it gives me relief from the roller coaster. If you are mirroring a person is goes up and down....needy and demanding to be close....then pushing you away and rejecting you alternatively......before you know it.....your doing that too! yikes!
It's one thing to have a consistent dysfunction you can count on like ADHD. Consistent inconsistency! It's another thing when a person becomes a moving target and seems to be going in the wrong direction you are all the time. You go one way....they go the other. You follow them and change directions...and they change again going back the other way. Will you sit still for a minute so I can just nail you down to one or the other!!! Man....I tell you. I thought I was bad?
Walking on eggs shells? Never finding anything that seems to work. Nothing you do is ever right? Repeat pattern of being almost too loving and almost begging for attention one minute....then angrily attacking you for no apparent reason when you do? This would explain it
The one thing I did read which puts a lot of pressure on me to do as a recommendation for someone like this was.....needing a very grounded and stable partner. The problem with the ADHD is that even though I put myself in the fairly or mostly grounded category emotionally with some dedicated effort....as far as the other things go with house chores and such.....I'm still up and down and she definitely has a negative effect on my ability in those areas. It is also what I suspect was the impetus for my own anger melt downs when they first happened. My feelings were hurt so badly at first from constantly being rejected and criticized in one form or another....which followed with being more aggressively attacked (verbally not physically) like she did after that......it was just too much to deal with and I had no idea what was happening. It took that much to resurrect me losing my temper with her which I had long since thought that was a thing of my past. I've got a very long fuse and even in the past....it was usually tied directly to something that was actually happening.
My wife on the other hand has a fuse that is so short that it takes literally nothing to set her off compared to me. Like your H....she can get out of bed and go off for no apparent reason. I also get now why my T was telling me.....don't react or get defensive. It doesn't hurt me to be more like this anyway so I see this as an opportunity to grow and gain some new skills.
In the meantime.....Flintstones is a good tool. An odd one to pass along but it works for me. I'm glad that it spoke to you too, Yabba dabba doo! lol Keep smiling:)
J
Morning Reading
Submitted by jlhrva on
Now spending my morning reading up on attachment styles...thanks for the insight!!
Yabba Dabba Doo!!
10-4 Wilma lol
Submitted by kellyj on
A passing thought.....what ever you come up with on your H's end.....you need to do this for yourself too. It's a "relationship" style were talking about here. You have one too....1 + 1 = ???. In theory...both people are trying to get their needs met and the two styles are doing something to prevent it from happening. It only takes one person with an unhealthy style....but two can make it even more confusing. One can pull you off even if your's is healthy.....or.....if your's is not and is the unhealthy counter part to theirs.....both partners are getting pulled in the wrong direction together by the dynamic it creates.
Losing yourself feeling? This helps explain it I think. This isn't your H's fault.....it's just how we're made. You are 1/2 the reason you feel like you are losing yourself if that's what's happening. You can only change your part here....that's the only control you have over this. That't the purpose of even doing this in the first place.
I think ultimately...this can be really helpful if you are using it to pin point what you are doing wrong for your partner in shining a light on the difference between the two styles. If you can adjust yours accordingly in the right direction....it can also pull theirs in line with yours as well. In theory at least....this can work. It does work if you can do this right but of course....this is not written in stone. At the very least.....it gives you and idea at least where to start. I'm saying this because you can also change this style yourself. It is a dynamic process that can change and will over time. In my past.....I saw this Ambivalent style in myself when I was with someone who pulled me in that direction and yet..... with another person, I went in the other direction to being more avoidant. There are tests you can take to see where you are and when I did one for myself......I fell pretty squarely right in the middle between avoident and preoccupied (my parents) which is considered healthy or normal. It does help you see where your tendencies will go it you start to move more towards and unhealthy pattern.
For me....when my default moves from a healthy pattern as I said....in either direction depending on the person who I am with. It is definitely an adaptive process which is what we humans....tend to do in all things. This just confirms what I am saying. At this point even with my wife and all things considered....my current pattern has remained healthy for the most part with only brief and small shifts and has remained unchanged from my norm. I can also feel the pull my wife has on me in the wrong direction but this time.....I'm not budging! lol This what they mean by being "stable". But you've got to make sure yours is healthy to begin with. That's the only way that this will work for you. I hope that helps?
It is dynamic and you can actually change it for both of you:)
J
I fell for it again...sort of...
Submitted by jlhrva on
Another rage-out incident this morning.
I still don't know what caused it. All was well, he took dogs outside, came back in through the kitchen where I was making breakfast and yanked leashes off of dogs, slammed the leashes onto the counter, cursed, stomped around, slammed back out of back door. Came back in, more slamming, storming around the house, screaming about no clean towels (sorry, but laundry isn't just my job and you haven't done any in over a month...), slamming doors, yelling at the cat to "get the F%^$ out of his way", etc. etc. Throwing things around the bedroom looking for something and...I fell for it.
I made the mistake of asking what he was looking for. Trying to help him.
Predictable response - "NOTHING! F YOU! LEAVE ME ALONE!"...now I've pointed the weapon at myself. So I'm back in the kitchen crying into scrambled eggs that I already know he's not going to eat. He continues raging all over the house for 10 more minutes or so. I go to the bathroom to get makeup done for work.
He comes into the bathroom like nothing has been happening and says "ok, I'm heading to work"...and I just burst into tears. I managed to get out "I don't know what to do when you are like this" amidst sobs.
Long story short, now it's my fault for "making it about me".
Can that be right?
Am I "making it about me"? If you're being rageful, it affects those around you. It just does. No one can just sit still and stand by and let it wash over them. The poor dog was cowering behind my legs, and she didn't eat her breakfast. If it affects the dog, surely it's reasonable that it affects me? I mean, I'm responsible for myself, and I shouldn't have engaged it at all...but surely it's reasonable to say "this behavior impacts me" by making me fearful and anxious...?
What does anyone think about this?
Jlhrva
Submitted by honeyblonde on
i know the feeling well. I'm still trying to figure this situation out. He has been seeing a therapist and I have joined recently. I believe the interactions between us has helped the therapist see the symptoms and make her decision, she has strongly urged him to start medication for treatment. He has an appointment... But we have yet to start the actual process of choosing the right Meds. I can say that I feel better knowing that help is happening and he seems to have accepted he has ADHD. That being said he does not see his actions and the more I get sucked I and argue the more excuses he will be able to make. I've started immediately telling him that he's out of control and needs to stop. Which usually makes him blow his top. I'm still holding firm to not taking it. I won't take insults, lies or blaming. I don't deserve being verbally battered no matter the reason. Basically the therapist has confirmed that nothing will get situated without the Meds. So I wait. I hope once the Meds Re in order we can start discussing our actual relationship. We both come with issues and I'm findings hat my issues are being compounded by his impulsivity and becoming out of control. I believe I suffer from some sort of PTSD like issues from a previous relationship and whe he gets out of control I get scared. I didn't realize it but it's sort of a flight or flight issue. Then oddly my reaction bounces off him and seems to have the same effect, very confusing and seems complicated. I hope there can be some resolution once the Meds are managed and a therapist can help us sort through this stuff. Financially, has has agreed and for the most part kept up with handing all finances over to me, and together we pay bills and discuss payments, Woodrow's and upcoming expenses etc. so that is a major relief. Thanks to the therapist for backing me up on it on our first joint appointment.
Im still feel that some of the tantrum like behavior, just like your story, is immaturity and selfishness. I get that impulsivity is an issue, but perhaps this is an environmental symptom of years of throwing fits to get his way? And often it works. It's strange because I can understand the urge. I can only assume it's because I have used this to my advantage at some point... When I was young, immature, and a selfish teen, maybe young adult.
I will update with what I learn in the future. But I still believe that you do not deserve to be treated this way no matter what the issue. I suggest voice recording it. Play it back. I really don't know if this is helpful or useful, but I've considered it multiple times. I had recorded several tantrums but I haven't played back. I. Just not sure how it will go.
I do know from past experiences that the re I let someone disrespect me, the less they respect me. This may not apply to the ADHD mind capacity or chemistry or whatever... But I'm still hanging on. Good luck and reply with any thoughts.
I feel your confusion and fears.
I was recently kept awake for several hours listening to him bang on the bedroom door... Blurting lies and excuses for over and hour because of some mistake he made. A mistake that I didn't call out or bring up. It's last like he punches me when he feels like he should be punished. Or something. He messed up so he harasses me. We have a boundary agreement of no entry into the bedroom if I close the door, therefore he just stood outside banging on it and yelling... Baiting and gas lighting. It worked at first, but then I stopped and stayed silent. He eventually wore himself out and went to bed. I had to not take the words personally, or correct the manipulations. Not fair, and not ok, but at least for me I believe we r on track for help with the therapist.
This is more than ADHD
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
This is more than ADHD.
He made a mistake, you didn't point it out, yet he had to abuse you and not let you sleep. That isn't ADHD. He may have ADHD, but that's not what that is. That is something more serious....maybe a personality disorder, maybe something else that is MORE serious than ADHD.
He abuses you because "at that moment," he feels a moment's worth of relief. Just a moment. Not enough to get himself to immediately stop...which is why he continues....until he's worn himself out....or more likely he's forgotten the mistake because he's move his focus onto you.
Yeah...
Submitted by honeyblonde on
I suspect something else as well... When I initially posted a few months ago I was in a panic. As I've posted before, I have my own issues with narcissistic relationships. I thought I figured it out, but the ADHD tricked me. I'm afraid I'm in the same place I was 15 years ago... Except this time I married him. Time will tell. He is seeing the therapist and she wants me to join for now. Maybe there is something else to all of this.
Next time, say this.....
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
"You're darn right I've made this about me. You exposed me to a childish tantrum, and you said "F you" to me, so at that moment, it is about me."
Good heavens, what will he say then? He's expecting you to say, "no, I don't think it's about me," so that he can further argue with you. So, own it. Yes, it's now about me. I'm a person who has done nothing to deserve being exposed to a childish tantrum by a full-grown man.
And, next time, when he STARTS to act that way, don't say anything and leave as soon as you can....even if it means finishing your hair, make-up or even fully dressing to the car.
It will take awhile, but when he soon learns that he won't have an audience for his tantrums, he'll stop or lessen them.
Believe me...the tantrums are about you (in a particular way). It's his way to make you feel some discomfort, because HE is feeling discomfort.
He might do "some" tantrum stuff when he's alone, but I would bet that he does an "extended version" when you're around to see it and hear it. Would he do it if his boss were around? Or a neighbor? or relatives? If so, would it last as long, or would it be a shortened version?
If he is giving you a longer version of the tantrum, then it is about you.
Correction! I typed "punches" but I mean punishes.
Submitted by honeyblonde on
He doesn't punch me.
Overwhelmed wife you are exactly right. I've thought through these exact scenarios. It reminds me of a kid who is bad for his mom, but good for everyone else. It's so twisted. The problem is that I grew tired of leaving my home at night, after going to bed, and having to go sit somewhere. I did it many times and it started to feel like a "win" for him because I was ultimately the one who was inconvenienced. Thats when the bedroom became an issue, and now we have the closed door boundary in place. I think it's partially the night time, hard to get to sleep issue for ADHD'ers. He gets kind of bonkers in the late night. I'm hoping once medicated he takes a real active role in learning about this and making adjustments. For our relationship and for me, acknowledging how his actions have affected me. I've been skeptical of the Meds, but I've researched quite a bit. I hope I'm not overshooting the positive effects of the Meds and they make a real difference.
So we discussed it...
Submitted by jlhrva on
And what I got was that although yes, the behavior is disrespectful to me, that I am failing to realize that:
1. HE is actually the person suffering most here, because he is experiencing both the issue that leads to he rage and the rage itself, which he doesn't like about himself and causes him shame, etc.
2. He has no ability to control this, so my asking for it to stop is the same as him asking me to stop having an anxiety attack.
I said that I recognized quite a while ago (with his none too gentle help in pointing this out!) that my anxiety had been a problem within this and other relationships. Which is why I am in therapy, have gotten medication, and have joined a support group.
I said that these were the steps I had taken to try to improve myself and function at a higher level, for myself and this relationship. And that now his partner (me), whom he professes to love and care for more than anything in the world, is asking him for help in taking steps to mitigate the rage issues, because they cause me to feel fear and have very negative emotional consequences.
His reply was that I am again making this about me, and that if I have a problem with him, I should "just leave. You don't have a chioce".
i believe that this goes back to the self-focused emotionality I have mentioned fairly often here...I'm just so puzzled by how he can make absolutely anything totally about only himself and the way he feels, or how he is being "done wrong" by me, the situation, anything...
I think any rational person would be able to accept a statement of "when you do X, I feel Y", without responding with "why are you doing this to me???". The rational response to a partner saying "how can we handle this better in the future?" Is not "you're treating me wrong!"...
At a loss. Feel like the relationship is probably over.
Is he medicated?
Submitted by honeyblonde on
Is he medicated?
It isn't about you. You didn't do anything wrong.
I feel like I went through this stage of crying, trying to help, trying to adjust my reactions... He's told me something is wrong with me. I need help. I need medicated. Etc. I used to consider it and let it hurt me. But you are not the one with the chemical imbalance that needs help. It isn't ok for ANYONE to treat you like this then blame you. As someone said earlier, would he do this is there was another person present? Like a boss, or maybe a grandmother? No. He's comfortable treating you badly. Which is when I decided not to take it. I'm not getting comfortable being treated badly by anyone. My H has told me and the therapist that he feels almost out of body when he's doing this. Like he can hear and see himself doing it but he can't stop himself. You shouldn't be on eggshells just not to wake the bear. And you shouldn't feel like you are in trouble if you don't know how to react appropriately... When he's in appropriate or out of control. I wouldn't let anyone else treat me like this. Particularly in my own home. You should feel safe and protected, especially at home.
I worried when I read these messages from others dealing with this for so many years. Don't take it. Show him you aren't a doormat. You are a wife that deserves to be treated with respect. Not manipulated to take all the blame for his behavior. That's a role I'm not willing to step into. It's caused a lot of loud, long fights, but I won't take it. Best bet is to stay calm. Tell him NO, you aren't at fault. You won't be spoken to like that. But don't get sucked in to "fighting back". I think this is what my H tries to do. Bait me into bad behavior or getting me out of control so he can focus on my words and actions. It seems to make him feel absolved of his.
We don't speak much at home right now. I try to talk about touchy subjects with the therapist. You need a mediator present to protect you.
Hi Honeyblonde....
Submitted by jlhrva on
Thank you for the reply...it really helps not to feel so alone, questioning my own sanity, whether I really am wrong and just need to ignore it and pretend it doesn't happen, as he wishes me to.
Yes, he is medicated. Even takes Depakote as a mood stabilizer in addition to Adhd meds. He just really believes that he HAS NO ABILITY to control or mediate the behavior. And that therefore, by asking him to change something he is powerless over and actually hates himself for, I am being disrespectful and unfair, and unimaginably cruel, by failing to understand the pain he is already in over the behavior.
When I pointed out that he had not apologized, he said "you must not listen to the things I say to you then". Normally, I would have allowed myself to be gaslighted and assumed that he had apologized and I missed it. But he didn't. Not this time. In fact, the only things he had said to me were "shut up" and "it's always about you, huh?". So I repeated myself that no, I did not see this causing him any distress, that in fact he was bevahing normally and had not even apologized.
Then he tried the usual reversion to "what about you"? Do you think I never put up with.... Which I did not engage, and simply said "that may be. But we're talking about this morning right now. What can we do to improve these incidents for both of us?"
And that's when I got the whole "if you're not happy with me, just leave me. You don't have a choice".
I fee selfish here...but the rage terrifies me. Even the dog is cowering behind me. I mean, I know it's not directed at me, but.... Am I really supposed to just spend the rest of my life knowing this will happen every month or so, waiting for the next episode, but not let it affect me? How...? Am I selfish and not giving my partner compassion? Is that true? If it is, I'll deal with it honestly. I have no problem with the truth, however uncomfortable....
Hi Honeyblonde....
Submitted by jlhrva on
Thank you for the reply...it really helps not to feel so alone, questioning my own sanity, whether I really am wrong and just need to ignore it and pretend it doesn't happen, as he wishes me to.
Yes, he is medicated. Even takes Depakote as a mood stabilizer in addition to Adhd meds. He just really believes that he HAS NO ABILITY to control or mediate the behavior. And that therefore, by asking him to change something he is powerless over and actually hates himself for, I am being disrespectful and unfair, and unimaginably cruel, by failing to understand the pain he is already in over the behavior.
When I pointed out that he had not apologized, he said "you must not listen to the things I say to you then". Normally, I would have allowed myself to be gaslighted and assumed that he had apologized and I missed it. But he didn't. Not this time. In fact, the only things he had said to me were "shut up" and "it's always about you, huh?". So I repeated myself that no, I did not see this causing him any distress, that in fact he was bevahing normally and had not even apologized.
Then he tried the usual reversion to "what about you"? Do you think I never put up with.... Which I did not engage, and simply said "that may be. But we're talking about this morning right now. What can we do to improve these incidents for both of us?"
And that's when I got the whole "if you're not happy with me, just leave me. You don't have a choice".
I fee selfish here...but the rage terrifies me. Even the dog is cowering behind me. I mean, I know it's not directed at me, but.... Am I really supposed to just spend the rest of my life knowing this will happen every month or so, waiting for the next episode, but not let it affect me? How...? Am I selfish and not giving my partner compassion? Is that true? If it is, I'll deal with it honestly. I have no problem with the truth, however uncomfortable....
I have heard the same exact words
Submitted by honeyblonde on
I've been told I'm selfish. I've been told I have no compassion. I've been told I'm a terrible person. Unlovable. Nothing is ever good enough for me. I think I'm a Dr. I had nothing happening before we met, so why do I think I would be so much better off without him.
I think it's deflection. It's almost like he's yelling at himself except he's directing it at me.
If you read about verbal and emotional abuse, you may recognize some of your feelings as the effects of being abused. It's hard to know when to stop and evaluate things for YOURSELF, without feeling like you are being selfish. Its not selfish to protect yourself or stand up for yourself. You are a person too. You have a life and future too. I think my H is incapable of considering my feelings. This is my partner, my protector and the one who is supposed to love me the most and he can't get past himself to consider me... So you have to be "selfish". Otherwise who is your advocate or ally? You have to be and don't feel bad about it.
More than likely he had some completely unrelated issue at work or something happened that made him feel bad about himself... And he projected it onto you. Which in my opinion is not ok. It's a role I'm not interested in and didn't sign up for. It's tough because we all do this sometimes, but I know how you feel. It just doesn't feel right. Probably because it isn't. Follow your gut. It's not ok for someone to hurt you to make themselves feel better, especially not your husband, partner or lover. It confuses me too.
My H works a commission job. I find that his mood swings are directly related to his sales. No sales... Look out. Great sales... Even salesman of the month often times... He's great.
He doesn't seem to be able to regulate himself or find balance.
Lack of regulation...
Submitted by jlhrva on
Cause and Effect Jlhrva
Submitted by kellyj on
I think any rational person would be able to accept a statement of "when you do X, I feel Y", without responding with "why are you doing this to me???". The rational response to a partner saying "how can we handle this better in the future?" Is not "you're treating me wrong!"...
I don't know if this will help or not, but what you said is missing a component in the cause and effect dynamic. For this to make sense......there is a third variable missing in this.....time. Or.... which thing came came first? In the present moment....you know what happened. What you don't know is what happened before this to know which one are you.....the cause or the effect? If both people think they are the effect and neither one thinks they are the cause....then that's what you have.
Time is the variable that cannot be changed in this. For any event to be an effect( a reaction ).....something had to happen before that to be the cause. In a temporal sense.....this has to be true.
If your H believed that you somehow caused this reaction in him before you said anything (asked if he was looking for something)....the slamming doors and making noise and yelling at the cat.....then asking him what he was looking for is you doing it to him again. What ever it was that he was upset with.....somehow he was feeling that this was because of you (the slamming around thing).
So now he already upset with you from before for what ever reason......and now you, you asked him what he was looking for? In essence....the slamming wasn't because he couldn't find something....it was because of you. Asking him what he was looking for was throwing salt in the wound and your doing it to him again but now making it worse....what ever it is you were doing? Now.....he's in pain because of you....and now you are upset with him for reacting poorly when you asked him the question that made you upset and cry.....therefore.....it's all about you.
Between the two of you.....you've got two effects and no cause? This can't be????
What I am saying is that this is a no win situation for you right from the start. You were right. You shouldn't have asked but that's not your fault either. I'm just explaining how this works.
The only thing I will say however....is that if you were to do it over again....the question wouldn't be "what are you looking for" but "what are you so upset about" or possibly better yet......"are you upset with me for some reason....is that why you are banging around?" That would have been a better place to start all things considered.
Whether he says it is or not......your feelings that your relationship is over are probably coming through loud and clear by your behavior and the things you have said previous to this incident. That's probably the cause right there. The effect is him feeling like you are rejecting him and possibly going to leave him. You didn't say in the moment when you asked the question or were even thinking along those lines but.....he was thinking about it and feeling the hurt and predicting the worst.
If I had to guess.....this would be the cause that you are not thinking about (and he's not saying or not even aware of at the time he was banging around) in this particular scenario. The time or the time that these events took place are disconnected to the actual event taking place in the moment. He speaking to you from the past....and your speaking to him in the present time. That's how cause and effect works in this respect.
It doesn't change or make things better in that respect.....but it does help to explain it to you so you can understand what is happening? I hope that helps?
Hi J...
Submitted by jlhrva on
Thanks, as always, for the response.
I should have mentioned that he said the tantrum was due to something that happened while he was walking the dogs...I think one of them ate something 'unauthorized' outside or something, which apparently necessitated this half hour long meltdown.
After it had gone on for half an hour, I asked if I could help/what was he looking for, only then to to the "shut up...etc" response.
So yes, there was a 'cause' outside of me...just not something that should cause anyone to subject their partner to this behavior...
As for whether I had been telegraphing anything...I honestly don't know, but I hope not. I try to keep any frustration isolated to this site and my ACOA meetings. I do know that just this weekend he had been happy with us to the point of picking me up and swinging me around and saying how wonderful things had been for "so long now"...so I doubt I had been projecting anything major, or else he surely would have picked a fight about it...
No Win Jlhrva
Submitted by kellyj on
Sometimes it's just that. I hear you. In your case....you and dog got flipped around and he kicked you instead. I'm sorry to hear that. You can't do anything about someone who is just mad at the world in general.....where do you start??
J
No clue...
Submitted by jlhrva on
I know, man. Nowhere to start, no clue how to do it.
He's mad at himself, not necessarily the world. He's drowning in unfinished projects and he keeps taking on more. Won't accept help or suggestions on time management. Lashes out of time management is even addressed. Says he's "already giving 100%, all day every day", whenever any suggestion is brought to the table, behavioral or otherwise.
We have a house that needs complete renovation (his ex wife's choice), and we've done a lot, but it still needs floors, windows, bathroom tile...but he spent $6000 on a Corvette chassis as a 3rd "project car"...b/c there wasn't enough to do around here...? He has plenty of money, and a skill set beyond price, but $6000 could have gone a long way towards eliminating some of the stress and pressure he puts on himself about getting this house competed and getting out of an environment that constantly reminds him of a toxic relationship. Do I dare mention it...? Absolutely 100% NO WAY.
sigh...
Oooh Boy!!! (hanging my head here:)
Submitted by kellyj on
This sounds vaguely familiar (cough, cough) lol I resemble that last comment and I'm not proud of it. I am digging my way out as we speak....it's been a long rode to haul but I finally came to same conclusion. No more new project!! yikes! I've got plenty to finish and I am knocking them down one by one. Downsizing is a good thing when you have ADHD. I think I have your H beat on the car thing though....4 vintage Mustangs and a vintage Dodge Dart convertible...however, it is my full time job at the moment along with selling everything I can sell on ebay and craigslist. If I had any tendencies towards hoarding in the past....I've gotten over that one at least even though my wife would argue that with me if she had the chance. Most of these things had accumulated before we even met and some of it is left over from past projects and misc. building supplies and tools. It's all gotta go and I'm not stopping until I'm finished! My biggest issue is trying to get my wife to believe since all she sees is me moving things around and organizing stuff to sell. If I didn't have a good idea of how long this all takes.....I do now!!
The patience on my wife's part has really been incredible despite it all. She loses site of this at times and all I can do is keep doing what I am doing. At least I do know that I am heading in the right direction this time. If only I could get her to believe me? lol
Does he want to sell the Corvette chassis? oops....forget I even mentioned it:)
J
Corvette Chassis...
Submitted by jlhrva on
Lol - I dare not ask!
He isn't a hoarder, by any means. In fact, the shop is extremely controlled and well organized. As I said, he is a master at what he does, and an artisan in other respects as well. It's just that he WANTS to work on enjoyable projects (like the Corvette and restoring his old Pontiac), but there is a backlog of 1000 house projects that need to be finished (not just started!) before we can move somewhere sane. He hates the house and living in it, soooo...why are we accumulating car bodies/chassis to take with us on a move...? And dumping money that could move the house along much more quickly into acquiring things that delay the end goal by requiring time and more resources and...you get the point. There is a spare bedroom full of parts for a car that is not even getting worked on because even thinking about working on it produces negative emotionality, which spirals into either 3 days of not showering and, frankly, pouting, or tantrums, or both.
And if I ask what I can do to help, or offer up my own savings, or suggest making a plan...no-go zone. Same results with the pouting/tantrums.
But he is medicated and feels good most days, so there is nothing he needs to change. Will not consider counseling to be beneficial, will not try cognitive behavior therapy, just stonewalls and pretty much says "I am how I am, leave if you want to"...
Disecting This For You... If I May?
Submitted by kellyj on
Yep...you're not alone in this and neither am I....as it appears.
Problems with him and his thinking:
But he is medicated and feels good most days, so there is nothing he needs to change. Will not consider counseling to be beneficial, will not try cognitive behavior therapy, just stonewalls and pretty much says "I am how I am, leave if you want to"... This is how he feels right now in the moment when he says it. He's not lying or just saying it to avoid what he feels....it's the truth, but he can't see the pathway (or plan that he knows will work for him) to make it any different because he has tried already and failed repeatedly. Unless he gives up something or has something to replace it with.....it's that something that he can't bring himself to bear yet without some kind of insurance that he can go without it and still be Okay.
He isn't a hoarder, by any means. (neither am I in the true definition as an obsession even if their is a compulsive component or flavor to it) In fact, the shop is extremely controlled and well organized. As I said, he is a master at what he does, and an artisan in other respects as well. It's just that he WANTS to work on enjoyable projects (like the Corvette and restoring his old Pontiac) As an artist and craftsman myself....I understand this. Part of the creative process is always thinking of the next thing and how you are going to do it. That's part of it. The other part has to do with procuring the needed parts and materials to do it....that's also part of it. But in the less healthy sense of it and where this goes wrong....is always needing to know that when you are done with the thing that you are working on.....there will be another one waiting to replace it. Nothing wrong necessarily with this either unless it gets to far from being possible to do without incurring all the down sides to this in the form of clutter and storing these things in an organized way...and then having the time to do this and do other things at the same time. That's the problem!! In this thinking without thinking this all through very well......you have to give up something you love to have something else you love when in reality......just a little less of one thing to have a relationship that is successful both at the same time. If there is any fault or error in his thinking....it comes from a false belief that he can't have both but wants both but that doesn't seem to work?? But why are these things seemingly more important (or even equally important) comparing them to you?
Ah....good question....I'm glad you asked. lol From the sound of it....he has been highly successful at doing exactly that. In fact....he has been highly successful at doing all of these things you mentioned and sounds like he has that completely under control to a fine degree.
If you look at my last statement.....I think you will see the answer within it. Success....first and foremost. Control....and the good feeling you have when you have it. Not so much over other things or other people....but over yourself an your ability to carry it out and maintain it. It can be a measure of your self worth having ADHD.....to prove to yourself that you can do it and maintain it in the face of everyone else telling you just the opposite. It's a form of self validation in a healthy sense.....but it comes from a unhealthy inability to do this or have this without having these external measures in place to keep validating you over and over. This is where something that is healthy.....becomes unhealthy and extreme. Like hoarding....but different in that respect. The attachment is to needing to be validated as a person through things or other people.
Enter......you into the picture. At first when things were good in your relationship.....you validated him and replaced this need to a certain degree. When you started to become disillusioned and unhappy with this relationship and feeling second to these things.....you withdrew your validation of him by means of your distress and unhappiness.
What will happen with a person who needs this kind of positive reinforcement and validation continuously from the person he has chosen and expected this in an unrealistic way to keep getting it from them and they suddenly stop doing it? Turn back to anything and everything else that gives him those feelings again to replace what he has lost? Seek it else where is the bottom line. He isn't avoiding you at the start of this....he was just seeking and finding things that gave him this in leu of you which includes but not limited to.....what he already knows he is successful at. The more you complain and invalidate him and these things that he loves because they bring him this needed validation.....the more he will turn to them and turn away from you.....that's how this works.
I know this for a fact because this is exactly what I use to do to until I came to this realization of this one day. For me.....my work was my life in that respect because it did this very thing for me. Without it....I would have been lost and my self esteem would have plummeted. Also....having to choose over a relationship that is failing and a wife that did nothing but complain and treat me with disdain only made me withdraw even more into my work and follow that path as the only way to compromise. It wasn't until I had enough success and validation at doing my work ( I got to the point where I was very good at doing what I did ) and that recognition sunk in to the point that one day it seemed......I woke up and looked back without having been paying attention to how far I had come...that I realized that I didn't need to do it anymore. The driving force that was there to get that recognition and validation I had surpassed to the point that suddenly....there I was. I had reached the top of the mountain and I had no where else to go? Once you reach the top......you own that mountain....it's yours. That's when I stopped needing to do what I did any more because it didn't serve me the same as it did in the past. I didn't need to be validated or recognized by anyone because I now owned it and it was mine. Nothing anyone could say to the contrary could change that or take it away from me and I didn't need to replace it with anything anymore. I needed nothing in that sense.
When that happens.....you see these things differently and you also see the error in your ways and why you did these things in the past. Everything suddenly become crystal clear and how you see yourself and everyone else changes along with it.
In respect to my wife for example. I don't need her for anything. Truly. I want her because I love her and I want to have a healthy and fulfilling relationship in my life and all the benefits that this has for you. It is fulfilling a human desire and need on that level as well since we are designed this way. You can live alone and do this quite well....but you will be missing a big part of this human experience by living this way. I choose to be in a relationship and I choose to be with my wife.....but I don't need her in the sense that my self esteem or what defines me as a person is required on her end in order to this. I don't need her validation or approval for anything.....what I need is only for her love and to make our relationship work.
Within that.....I also choose not to live in a dysfunctional relationship and this is also something that I absolutely do not want. The choice then is clear....find ways to make it work and not to have these things be a problem. That's all. Whether she complains or is even abusive to me it doesn't matter in the short term. Nothing she says to me one way or another is going to change how I feel about myself. How I feel about myself is not dependent on anyone because I own it. It's mine and I make my own choices whether anyone else agrees with me or not. This may sound almost selfish or conceited but I know that it isn't. I know that too because I know that what I feel is healthy when I am following how I feel about this and why.
If you aren't dependent for anyone for validation or to define who you are.....you aren't draining them or sucking off them to get your needs met since....you've already met those needs for yourself and you own it already. This frees you up to many many options and one of them is choosing not to have an unhealthy relationship and doing everything I need to do to get that. From this kind of stance.....things only come from you to others and you don't need anything from them. I think this is a very healthy place to be all things considered.
And since I know this as fact because of the experience that tells me this.....I also know that I will not tolerate anything less than a healthy relationship. I don't need it to be but I choose to not accept anything less. And if my wife isn't there yet....then this is also very clear to me what needs to be done and what I have to do to get what I want.
What is that? I need to keep validating her and reassuring her continuously and give her the same recognition that I needed to make this happen for me. In that respect......I am ahead of her and have to the leader in order to get what I want and that includes not allowing anything she does to change how I feel about myself and pull me in any direction that I know is unhealthy for us. If she can't do this without my help and support....then it is clear to me what I need to do to help her do this so she will have what I have and be able to join me in her ability to do this as well.
In my mind....this is unconditional. I don't need her for anything except....what I need her not to do is to keep trying to get what she needs in respect to low self worth or low self esteem from me instead of getting it for herself, by using me to do it. In that regard....I choose not to do this and I won't do it. This is the unhealthy way that people use others to fill the void that is their that only they can fill and no one or nothing in the physical sense can replace that or make up for it even if it feels that way at times. This is short lived and superficial and will quickly run out as soon as the source or well dries up. If she takes this from me.....I won't have it to give in return. My self esteem and self worth are the things that are not negotiable and never will be. That where I stand and how this worked for me...(and is still working:)
I hope that gives you a better understanding of your H and why he does what he does. And in respect to what I am doing with my wife....I think this might be the answer to what you are looking to do and how to go about doing it. Self confidence and self esteem are key components to this and the only way to get those things is to believe in yourself and your true abilities. I have fought long and hard to get to this place at a great cost to get there but.....the price was worth every Penney of admission in this case:)
FYI: It's also why I took my skills and what I had done in my past and went....hmmmm? I;ll just reverse this situation and use those same skills to get myself back of it the same way I got myself in.....and then keep it this way. Like I said....the clarity you get from this makes everything much simpler and easy to see. The only thing lacking here is the faith in me on my wife's part....but, I don't need that either as I said yet.....it would be nice:) lol
J
The dog cowering is something that we deal with too
Submitted by honeyblonde on
Honestly, often times I'm cowering with the dogs.
The part that I always bring up is that I feel like to some degree he does this, because he gets away with it. He's become comfortable with me. He has a friend that he will do this to as well. Only one though. Otherwise he stays pretty regulated. This is why I feel like I have to take a stand and not accept it. If he can regulate it in some situations, why can he not regulate it when we are at home and it's just us? My answer is because he thinks he doesn't have too. This is what brought me to decide that no matter the issue, I won't take the abuse. It's my home too. I shouldn't have to be his verbal punching bag or scapegoat. No matter what the dog does, or the boss, or the customer... I'm not taking the blame or the brunt of it because it's uncomfortable for him to admit responsibility.
I have a lot to learn about this... And I may very well change my mind after further therapy etc. but if he truly can't control himself, why is he not throwing a tantrum using his mother as the scapegoat, or his grandmother, boss etc. why is it just me... And sometimes his "best friend" of nearly 20 years ? So I have to change my behavior too and at this point I'm not going to coddle him like a child, apologize to him for something that I didn't do or cause. In my opinion this only causes more issues between us. I don't want to be his mother.
I doubt your H can recognize how this affects you. Or maybe he does, which only causes him to get more frustrated and angry at himself, taking it out on you more.
However, surely cowering wives and dogs would be an indication to him that he's gone to far, or just to stop.
I'm probably not much help.... I just go on with my thoughts... But again, sometimes I feel like this issue is just an excuse to be abusive. And reason for women, or non ADHD partners to stay in an abusive relationship.
To be continued I guess...
To be continued...
Submitted by jlhrva on
To be continued, indeed.
I admire your strength on this. I think that the trap I have fallen into for so long, which has a lot to do with my own failings of reactivity and caretaking, has been in allowing myself to feel accountable/responsible for it. As though it was my job to "minimize the damage" or "manage the situation". It isn't. He and only he is responsible for his actions. And if he feels that he cannot control them, and is unwilling to take steps to even try, then my choice is quite clear. Stay and accept the behavior, or stand for what I do not accept and leave.
Currently, he is refusing to sleep in the same room as me, because he is "not okay with how I have behaved" and he "doesn't feel like he is the one who needs to do anything to fix things".
Ummm...so let's be clear on what is happening here. I came to you in a loving and calm way and asked you to think proactively about what steps we, as a couple, can take to minimize or eliminate the behavior of rageful tantrums, because it has negative consequences for me, for us, and even for our pets. But somehow this is being spun as ME treating YOU badly. Okay. Roger that...
I feel like I'm in the fight of my life ...
Submitted by honeyblonde on
And my future. My H has been on the couch for months. However, it's because I don't think that it's reasonable to let someone in my bed who treats me with such disrespect and inconsideration. Many times I don't believe he should be in our home. I don't think I should have to live in an environment with someone who is so out of control, insulting, irresponsible. However, it's his home too, so to the couch he goes. If I were dating him, I wouldn't take to bed a man who is only interested in meeting his own needs. It's lose/lose however I'm not hurting my own self esteem and self worth by feeling obligated to sleep next to or be intimate with someone who isn't interested in (capable of) meeting my needs. Really at at this point, it's not about the mess, or the little things. I've come to understand the issue of ADHD and all that comes with it. However, the insults, the fly off the handle outbursts, the hours of tantrums and attempted manipulations to avoid ANY responsibility and the stubbornness of it all. Refusing to recognize or acknowledge how he speaks to and treats me is the real issue. It's what is doing the real damage to me. I just need my home to be stable, calm and generally under control. If or when this happens I think I can handle the rest of it. Like every day his razor is out in my toothbrush spot in the drawer! Ouch! I am desperately hoping that the Meds help with this, but I'm not sure how this will go. He is already resentful of even considering taking them.
I would be interested to see what would happen with your husband if you did leave. If you chose you and your well being over him . Would he come for you? Are you fearful that he wouldn't? Hesitantly, I ask you, if you left, and he didn't make the effort to come for you ... Wouldn't that speak volumes of the relationship and your decision to leave?
I lived like that for a long time in a past relationship. I knew if I left, he wouldn't come for me. I just didn't want to accept it so I chose the abuse. He knew it, and continued. Not necessarily the same situation, but hard to swallow nonetheless.
No one likes ultimatums, but sometimes you just have to choose what's best for you. Is throwing away his relationship worth one hour a week with a behavioral therapist?
I just hate this for everyone. So many partners trying, accommodating, reading, researching and hoping for a solution... When really the solution is trapped inside them.
I Can SOOOO Relate...
Submitted by jlhrva on
Your certainty is such an inspiration. Thank you so much for the things you've shared here. Really. I admire your conviction very sincerely.
And you're hitting it pretty close to home there...the refusal to acknowledge the way that he speaks to me, or the things that are said. Attempting to twist the recall of an event, so that I am the one saying bad/negative things, when in reality it's the other way around. Or, (God forbid), I actually lose my temper and DO say something heated/negative in a discussion - then the recall will be that I said this out of thin air, prior to him doing/saying anything to provoke it, etc, etc. It's such a self-indulgent mentality...I'm always "doing him wrong"...and then expected to apologize for some imagined or manufactured slight, just to get the peace back in the house. The number of times I've wished for a tape recorder! Not that he'd ever agree to it, but at least I would be able to verify that I'm not actually crazy. That I don't actually remember things that aren't said, and vice versa.
The other day, I asked him if he was sorry for the outburst from the morning. And he said of course he was. So I said "okay, thank you for saying that. You hadn't apologized, so I was just trying to clarify". And he yells "you must not listen to the things I say to you! And now you're demanding multiple apologies!!" That was a real lightbulb moment for me. First of all, I'm stone cold certain that nothing even resembling an apology had passed his lips. Nothing. About 3 sentences had been spoken since the tantrum, which I think were "hi", "have the dogs had their dinner", and "are you ok with pizza tonight?". But more importantly...this was just such a classic example of how things get manipulated and twisted. "Demanding multiple apologies". Wow. I asked if you were sorry. Because I legitimately needed to know if you felt remorse, or were still angry. Because our previous agreement was that if he felt remorseful, he should come to me with it. That we want to foster open sharing of emotion, and acceptance of each other, all the way, flaws and all. That I would never shame him or berate him for something he is apologizing for. That I understand how it feels to behave in ways one is not proud of, and that I accept and love him. So when he took my asking "are you sorry about this morning?" and turned it into "demanding multiple apologies"...this transforms me from a caring partner who is trying to softly approach an issue from a known safe zone, into some sort of self-righteous, nagging harpy, doing the very things that I have loving assured him I will never do. And I realized in that moment that this must be how all of the other twistings and manipulations happen. In essence, he experiences what his FEELINGS are, and he makes my actions fit that mold. It's almost like solving an equation for X. He feels ashamed and embarrassed, and knows he should have apologized. but those feelings are uncomfortable, so his mind decides to take my actual behavior and motivations and just...shade them. A little. To back in to the emotion equation, like "I feel X, so then she must have done Y!". "The words are the same, but the meaning is COMPLETELY different" (a quote from Meg Ryan in French Kiss...one of my all time faves!).
So, I just calmly restated what he said, and asked him when I had done this. I said "So you're saying I am demanding something of you, and that something is multiple apologies. I don't recall that happening. What I believe I just said was 'are you sorry about this morning?' I asked this because I was not sure if you were still angry, and you had not apologized. Our agreement was that when you felt calm and better, you would come to me and apologize".
Now, I do not usually contradict him or engage in verbal back-and-forth, so I think this was a surprise to him. He actually sputtered a bit, and then said something like "well, yes you are! You just did that! You said I hadn't apologized to you, and that's asking me to do it, and now I've done it multiple times, so yes you are! And don't give me any more crap about it!".
To which I replied "Actually, you still have not apologized. You have yelled at me about the concept of apologizing. But thank you."
Twists and twists and turns and turns.
I think what it comes down to is that I just can't hang with the volatility. Weeks of "I'm sooo happy, love, love, love, lalalalala...". Then, an 'episode' will happen, and suddenly he has been miserable forEVER, and I have no idea what he puts up with and lets go, and I hurt him so bad all the time but he says nothing about it, and he doesn't need to change a thing, bears no responsibility for anything that is happening, and 'can't give me any more than the 100% he is already giving, all day every day". Completely and totally unwilling to accept even the suggestion that his defensiveness and combativeness is causing him to interpret things in a skewed manner, which is leading to reactivity, which is leading to... Nope. No way. This is alllll me, and my refusal to admit it is the cause of all of our issues. Period.
I do understand that this is the way his mind perceives things. I've done the reading, been around the block on this site for over a year. I follow blogs and journals, read psych publications and papers. Talk to my counselor, my support system. I don't sweat the little stuff AT ALL. I could care flippin' less if he leaves his dirty, oil covered uniform in the middle of the bathroom floor, next to his boots, wallet, belt, dirty towel, etc, etc, etc every day for the rest of our lives. I don't care that I end up with all of the housework unless I specifically tell him (and remind again, sometimes multiple times) to do the simplest things, which makes me feel like his mother. I just do the housework...it's not that much, we don't have kids, and sometimes I let it go for a week to give myself a break. Big deal, who cares? I really don't.
BUT...I can't handle the swings. It's like reality shifts every time one of these episodes happens. Like I have to question my experience of my own life. I thought things were great...we discussed that things were great. Now, things have been awful this whole time? Which one is it? If things are awful, how come I think they're great? Am I nuts? Do I remember things correctly? Do I need to tell my counselor that I'm experiencing memory lapses? Recall issues? I get to the point where I really don't know which way is up, sometimes.
And lately, I'm starting to wonder whether, no matter how his mind works, or how much sympathy I have for his emotional experience, or how much I love him and can't stand the thought of him never holding me again...whether any of those things are reasons to tolerate a partner who disrespects me. Should I live with someone and be romantically involved with someone who holds me to such an incredible double standard? I have to take responsibility for everything. EVERYTHING. It is always my job to coach, cajole, discuss, come to him, apologize, persuade, make peace...ALWAYS. It is absolutely never on him to do these things, because no issue is ever his fault. And if there is ever any small shade of accountability that can be held to him, well, then it's REALLY not his fault, per se, because (insert 16 things I "did" that left him no choice).
I am expected to recognize my faults and shortcomings (no problem with this! I want to be the best version of me I can be!), but no matter how softly I suggest that he may have some issues to examine as well - WHAM! Brakes on, nuh-uh, no WAY, and you're a MONSTER for hurting me so badly by even SUGGESTING that!!! How could you?? How could you not realize that I am the one suffering here??? I know I spoke to you like you were sh*t stuck to my shoe, and I didn't even apologize, but ME!! I am the one hurt here!!
If I acted in this way when he brings an issue to my attention...if I ever had, he would not tolerate it. He would have told me I was treating him badly, doing him wrong, and that's it, it's over.
And to answer your question...no. There is absolutely no chance he would come after me. In fact, he would say (and has said!! "What??? Why should I??? You're the one who left!". He adores me...until the split second he even gets a hint that I'm violating his "doing me wrong" bubble. Then it's "you're not the person I thought you were, this isn't going to work, I don't even know if I want this relationship if you're going to behave this way..."
I left from June - October. Actually still have my apartment, am paying rent on it through the notice period. And he expressed not one word of remorse for anything. We had to meet up to go over some logistics of shared bills, and I had realized through therapy some things that I contributed to past conflicts. I apologized for them, and that led to us being back together now. He has not apologized for anything. In his mind, he did nothing wrong, then or now. And I thought I could cope with it, could just accept that I would always have to be the bigger person, swallow the pill, because the upside was so huge...but...
I have no idea what to do...
neither do I :(
Submitted by honeyblonde on
neither do I :(
Theres something to this. It's very similar, I'm glad I've come across someone who is experiencing the same things with so many similarities. At least there is that.
At this point I feel like I'm following him around, or trying to get in front of, things that will frustrate him... To avoid the backlash of his frustration. All ADHD symptoms aside... This just sounds like a very unhealthy relationship.
Standing up for myself is only causing major, volatile arguments for hours and hours. The only thing it's doing is making me feel like I'm not accepting being treated badly... Which is important I guess. Accepting being treated badly or disrespected does do a number on the whole self esteem/self worth. But so do insults, manipulations and lies. We don't have children, just the doggies... But I want to ... Wanted to. I could never put a child in this home. I'm with you. I just can't handle the volatile unpredictable (yet predictable) unstable outbursts.
And I honestly don't know what to do either. I suspect it's because there is nothing we can do. They have to do it.
They DO have to do it.
Submitted by jlhrva on
And no amount of talking , crying, pleading, or rationalizing can make them.
The new spin at our house is that the problem here is not him or his temper. It's actually ME and my perception of his temper. This is just not as big of a deal as I am making it out to be, at all. And if anyone needs to be seeking help, it's actually ME who needs to get help with my "anxiety", which is actually causing me to perceive his actions in distorted ways.
When asked why the dog is cowering, if I am truly misinterpreting this, the response was "the dog cowers when a trash truck comes! Get real!"....(she doesn't).
When asked whether he thinks that regardless of whether I am misperceiving, or he is acting inappropriately, or some combination of the two, should his loving and supportive response to his partner's needs be "this isn't my problem, it's yours, you deal with it"...I got a 30-minute speech on how he can't explain to me that the sky is blue when I am convinced it's orange, and how 99.9% of people would agree that my characterization of his actions is exaggerated, therefore I am being irrational, therefore I am the one who needs to change, but again, since I refuse to acknowledge that the sky is blue, I can't see the true nature of my own thoughts and perceptions.
It was a fun conversation.
Read What I Just Said About "Comparing".Jlhrva
Submitted by kellyj on
I got a 30-minute speech on how he can't explain to me that the sky is blue when I am convinced it's orange, and how 99.9% of people would agree that my characterization of his actions is exaggerated, therefore I am being irrational, therefore I am the one who needs to change, but again, since I refuse to acknowledge that the sky is blue, I can't see the true nature of my own thoughts and perceptions.
The first part of this I have done many times.....the 30 minute dissertation trying to explain how different (we with ADHD) are and all the reasons why but yet....cannot seemingly get anyone to understand this? The truth is....this is real. But the second part is that there IS no way for anyone else to really understand. The only way that this would truly be possible is to have this experience yourself and that is simply not possible. In essence....it's a waste of time to even try. I have learned that this is just part of having ADHD and the understanding needs to be on our part and then accepting this as just being part of it. It is very frustrating and it's hard not to be angry at times when we get misinterpreted....but the fact remains that we have this effect on other people even without intention and we aren't going to get a lot of understanding from others as the norm.
The norm being something that happens quite often and there's not a lot you can do about it. You can accept it or not. This is a choice....but to do this....you have to accept also...a certain amount of frustration and having to tolerate not having closure. If you don't accept it....and you can't tolerate not having closure to these things....all that is left is to stay angry and frustrated all the time. I know a lot of my own anger at times comes from this very thing....
But.....the second part of what your H is doing is that comparison thing I mentioned with my wife as well. The response saying 99.9% of people in general and they would all agree with me is a rationalization to adjust he feels in comparing everyone to him in agreement. In reality....it's just the opposite of this. Some large percentage of people are NOT going to agree with him(or us) simply because we have ADHD and many times see things differently from a different perspective. That's just a fact of reality. He feels judged and shamed and the way to counter that....is to enlist everyone else in comparing them to you......WE'RE all together in this......you are the only one who feels this way. In this case.....I think he's not accepting that he's different and doesn't want to be. I feel the same many times but...what are you going to do about it is the question? Accept it and not be angry? Or not accept it and stay angry and frustrated that you can't explain it and keep trying to get other people to understand?
Why do they HAVE to do it? As my T warned me about the guy I worked with. At some point....(their inability to tolerate this feeling and the low self worth that they experience from it ) that they are different and stand out because it has to be resolved in some way? The inability to be able to tolerate not having closure to makes it unbearable to live with this feeling which only makes you feel picked upon and angry but, to a certain degree....there never will be any closure or resolution to some of these things. They are what they are and there is nothing to do about it. Living with these feelings is the only choice from an objective stand point....the burden of having ADHD.
From where I sit at this point......accepting it and living with these feelings is whole lot easier than the alternative and doesn't feel nearly as bad all things considered even though.....I still have my weak moments and it is still hard to do.....but these a few and futher between compared to before I came to these realizations myself. I'm only human..
Even when you accept it....it's still a big pill to swallow sometimes. Especially when you are already stressed out and full of self doubt. If you cannot swallow it and accept it....it will come out in other ways guaranteed. Stubborn pride and feeling vulnerable is a big part of this one too. Especially for a guy.
It keeps coming back to the same thing....validation, reassurance and positive reinforcement. No matter how difficult this is to do on your end.....this will only serve you in the long run I think. Whether that will be enough or make these things stop is still left to be determined?
J
Hi J...
Submitted by jlhrva on
Thanks, as always. Truly.
I see your points. And I do understand how he is serving himself by behaving in this way. I get what the behavior is accomplishing for him.
But, you see, he's not using the whole "the sky is orange/blue" thing to try to explain to me that HE sees things differently than I do. Or to explain anything about his reactions, symptomology, etc. What he is saying there is that I think that the sky is orange (aka that his behavior is problematic and needs to be addressed) but that in reality, he and 99.9% of other people know that the sky is actually BLUE (aka his behavior is not a problem, but rather my erroneous, inflated perception of his behavior is the entire, pervasive, systemic problem). You see...he's saying that he is trying to explain to someone (ME) that their perception and interpretation of reality is just plain incorrect.
The problem is that in order to accept and validate him, now that he has taken it to this extent, is to deliberately invalidate myself. I cannot say "Oh yes, I see now that your behavior is not at all a problem, but that the root of all of our issues is that I truly don't grasp reality, and that I, not you, behave in irrational and totally unacceptable ways. I get it now. Thank you for pointing this out to me. You're right, the sky IS blue after all."
I can't say that. I can't validate ANY PART of what he is saying. Because not only s he defending, deflecting, and actually attacking me, but he's also seriously, abusively gaslighting me. And if I validate that, I have no self worth left.
Further, as my partner, EVEN IF THIS WERE TRUE...and it isn't. The behavior is rageful tantrums, and it IS a problem. BUT, even if it were true that these are actually mild episodes of frustrations, and that I am distorting them out of all proportion due to my anxiety and my emotional baggage...Even if this were true, he would still be failing me as a partner here.
When your partner, whom you love and support and care for with all of your heart, comes to you and says "when you do X, I feel Y...it's making me cry to feel this way, can you help me find a way that we can work together to fix this?" should the answer really be "that's your problem if you think I'm doing X. I disagree that I am, and it shouldn't be an issue anyway. The issue is with you, so you work it out. I won't do anything at all, because I shouldn't have to"...? Is that really the answer that I should be receiving from a partner who cares for me? Who respects me?
No matter the other problems, no matter the differences in processing, emotion, communication, etc, etc...this one is pretty simple. "I need your help". "Well, you shouldn't. Fix it on your own or not at all, I don't need to do anything".
Accommodation
Submitted by honeyblonde on
no matter what technique I use. Whether it is calming, not engaging, correcting misinformation, yelling louder, crying... Etc etc... I feel like the bottom line is that if I'm not accommodating his agenda to not take responsibility then it's an issue. I have tried all of these through the months leading up to now.
It almost feels like a bullying situation. Perhaps he felt drawn to me because he recognized that I could be bullied easily. I'm easy going, I'm caring, I like to avoid conflict and really I'm very happy to just move on from arguments and go about being happy. However, not at the expense of my own sanity. I'm not allowing that at the expense of myself worth. A partner should not feel anything but remorse when their loved one ( and the dog) is cowering hysterically in a panic. No matter what. That's an issue that they need to recognize and control. If they are not able on their own, then they need to seek medication or other ways to learn how to control it.
Live said it before, many times... You can't drive me crazy, (through rage, intimidation, manipulations, blaming, lying, reversioning situations, and basic chaotic nonsense to divert responsibility) then point your finger at me and tell me that the problem is that I'm crazy and I need help. I believe it's his intention to make me feel crazy so that I can't clearly see what is happening and again, take blame so that he can avoid the very uncomfortable feeling of being wrong.
J, I'm a little confused with your situation... This thread is quite long at this point. Is your partner ADHD as well?
I'll be honest, your input is important and helpful, however I'm not 100% sure we are all on the same page. I feel a sense of expected accommodation from you. Why is the expectation for the non ADHD partner to adjust, accommodate, or just deal with it? Why can't the expectation to be on the ADHD partners end? My expectation right now for him is to freeze, dive into this, seek help from a therapist and medical dr and really get to know HIS disease. Fins ways to adjust HIS actions, HIS behaviors, HIS outbursts and feelings. I'm happy to learn how to deal with this as well, but not while he's watching football and making excuses.
Again, part of me feels like this is a form of abusive behavior, with a diagnosis attached to it. Therefore giving hope, more than likely false hope, to the non partner. Also a sense of responsibility to the non partner. It brings shame and guilt to those of us who are questioning the committment to the relationship. Would we leave a partner who is physically ill? Is it comparable?
The ADHD partner seems to have a sense that their time, their future, their needs are much more important than ours. Almost really as if there is no consideration for my hopes and dreams for my future. My time is dispensable and unimportant. I have a life too... I had a life before him that was important to me. And that's not selfish. What is selfish (and narcissistic) is to partner with someone and expect them to completely accomodate their own needs, wants, and expectations with no consideration of their partner, ever. He has absolutely no consideration of me. Able or not... He needs to find a way to get able. And fast. it's not my responsibility to accomodate him and keep him "comfortable" especially at the expense of my own comfort. Why is that acceptable?
Obviously you are on the other end of this. And just as we can not completely understand what it's like to be ADHD, I suspect you can not completely understand what it's like on this end. It's hell. Absolute emotional hell. It's confusing. It's overwhelming. It's unbearable at times. It's scary. It causes issues with trust... As if we all already don't have trust issues. It's like a pit in my stomach daily not knowing what to do or not do to wake the beast. When really there's nothing to do to avoid it.
What im getting for you, and from my own ADHD H is that the best thing to do is to just take it. Say nothing, don't engage, dont correct, don't stand up for yourself, don't bring it up later, don't try to have a conversation when we are both calm, just DO NOT BRING IT UP ( because he's not comfortable with it) and the best thing for HIM, is for me to just get comfortable taking it. No thank you. I'm staying until I see what the Meds d and I'll take the advice of the therapist... If there isn't a real shift in consideration. A real sense of aknowledgment from him. And a sense of urgency to stop some of this damaging behavior, I have to take control and the advice of some of these other women who heave dealt with this long term, and end it as it is not going to change.
I Understand...This is So Hard Sometimes to Know
Submitted by kellyj on
To answer you question first about my wife.....I don't know if she is ADHD or not....I am trying not to diagnose her but at the same time....I am also trying to figure her out and understand what makes her tick. To the point....I really do believe something is up with her that needs to be addressed. Speculating? I know she is an adult child of alcoholism...that's for sure. That could explain it. But I also recognize something that I am very familiar with that I can relate to and understand since she shares many of the same quirks as my dear old mom (deceased). Right to it.....anxiety related disorder possibly? I believe I got my ADHD from my mother but I have no way to verify that for sure. But GAD (general anxiety disorder) does look a lot like it from what I have read. It's not a good idea in general to try and diagnose from the arch chair in these things...but having an idea of the symptoms in order to better understand the behavior needs something tangible to at least get in the ball park. That really all I have been doing to try and see what I can do to avoid conflict with her.
What I recognize as symptoms are:
denial
tangential thinking and speech patterns
Fear
depression
mood swings
obsessive behaviors
perfectionism
chronic irritability
sleeping issues
lots of projection, blaming and victim mentality (OMG)
highly reactionary
inability to tolerate discomfort on all levels both physical and mental
tactile sensitive, sound sensitive, light sensitive, smell sensitive, people sensitive, ....sensitive sensitive!!!! When I say she is sensitive and seemingly..everything bothers her, I'm not kidding.
adversarial
territorial
possessive
somewhat phobic ie: irrational fears of things including but not limited to claustrophobia, food (fear that its tainted...throws away perfectly good food in fear that it's bad because the selling date is one day over ) lots of stuff along those lines
And lastly....a complete unwillingness to talk about anything that has to do with these things specifically or anything to do with any of these issues and believes that.."lots of other people are this way." Ah....no their not. Trust me.....takes one to know one. I may have ADHD and I definitely have my issues....but I'm not afraid to talk about them (obviously) to the point....that even in the past before I was diagnosed...I didn't fly off the handle in an instant just because someone mentioned them to me. This is the part that I don't understand? Even then if someone simply pointed any of my symptoms to me (which use to happen all the time) the first thing I wouldn't do is clam up or immediately react with anger. I certainly had a lot of behavior that fell into the category of denial...but that was because I simply did not know? Finding out was a blessing for me....at first I was elated to finally find out and I could wait to go get help and treatment for this mysterious thing that kept plaguing me. Really. I was not only happy in one respect....but relieved as well. I never had a hard time taking objective constructive criticism as long I as could tell the person doing it was being reasonable and not approaching me with a lot of anger and accusation. and Are you kidding....that's where the problems are coming from. She won't allow two words come out of my mouth before she immediately and abruptly ends the conversation. If I try....she reacts with venomous hostility. Even if I am nice and try to be soft and indirect as I can....the minute the conversation moves towards any part that she has to play....she shuts it down and that's it. No talking about anything that has to do with her or her part to play. You can't get 10 feet near that conversation without it ending badly....every time. No way... Jose!!
So you see....I am in the same place as many of those who come her with an ADHD spouse yet....I'm the one with ADHD. And because I have it....and have gone through years of therapy and have been on meds for years.....my ADHD has calmed down tremendously but....it hasn't completely disappeared either. From everything that I have read on this forum.....my wifes response to my ADHD all things considered is seemingly out of the norm?
It seems.....most of you have H's that refuse to talk about there issues and resist treatment but it seems that most of you spouses are not unwilling to talk about things or even admit to an acceptable level....the parts that you play mostly? Not a lot gets mentioned about the part of the non spouse here on this forum and I do know the the burden of proof really falls in the court of the person with ADHD but....realistically speaking....it takes two to Tango and both people have a role to play.
If I had to pick one source of my anger with my wife that probably accounts for 90% of our fights or arguments...it comes from a refusal to talk about her side and how she contributes and won't be accountable period. This drives me nuts and and to this day....I still don't have any idea really what she is thinking or why she will not talk about anything that has to do with her. This subject is completely off limits....period. I've been in any other relationships before with other women ( 1 ex wife for over twelve years) and one brief encounter I would hardly call a marriage even though on paper)....but this is ridiculous!! I have not personally been with someone who refuses to talk about anything that has to do with themselves in a negative way....to the point......ever? I really don't understand it....ADHD and all???
And she says I have issues???
J
PTSD
Submitted by honeyblonde on
Many years ago I saw a therapist due to an abusive relationship. I could barely recognize myself after nearly 12 years of breaking myself up against a hard surface of the narcissist. Coming out I believe I was suffering from PTSD. I thought I worked it out. Moved on and found myself again after lots of reading. Meditation. Reflection. I'm in a panic now. Newly married... Different guy, different diagnosis... Same outcome. I'm not being considered. Ever.
im sure the combo of ADHD and PTSD makes things worse. His outbursts put me into a panic attack. His loud aggressive out of control tantrums trigger a lot of bad things for me.., maybe for your wife too. The manipulations are painful and confusing.
I know I'm having some real issues about this on my end. My issues are affecting his issues. When I panic, he feels that discomfort, and then he reacts more. It's a very bad combination for two people who waited so long to finally settle down.
I Know the Feeling
Submitted by kellyj on
What I really think the problem is between the two of us is that we both have come through growing up with a Narcissistic parent. The only difference is that I have gone through therapy and have resolved most of these issues on a physiological level.....but the PTSD that remains is more of a visceral reaction to it. This is where I can be sensitive to my wife only because I know what that was like. In respect to this.....we are more a like than we are different. So many times I have caught onto this with her....as it appears....she is reacting to something and it's not necessary me. Really. It almost feels like she is seeing someone else in front of her and she will even say things like....."I don't know you." This is disturbing since I get the sense that it is not coming from the usual way one might say this to someone....like "I don't know you when you act like this" but rather....."I don't know who you are?" It almost appears as a type of dysphoria she is experiencing or loosing touch with reality moment where she gets very confused and almost disconnected.
The reality of our situation, truly. With all due respect to the fact that people with ADHD do not always see themselves as others do as the books will tell you (myself included especially in the past)....what it doesn't mention is that you can learn. I think when you read these things....the qualifiers are sometime left out since they are not really talking about what happens once you get treatment and figure these things out. Having said that.....I've gotten really good a watching myself and I know this because this has now become a habit. I have to do it to pay attention to what I am doing and I am getting better at it all the time. And along with that....I can't help but watch the same behaviors in other people to the point....that I notice both now where in the past I was pretty oblivious. Not to say this doesn't happen at times when I hyper focus and am really intensely into to something....but I have also learned to break out of it and come back on line.
All of this is to say.....that it isn't just me who gets angry and yells when my wife and I get into it.....it's both of us doing it together. Sometimes I react to her ...and sometimes she reacts to me.....but neither one of us are saints in those moments and she pretty much matches me toe to toe.
That's the part that she won't admit to or talk about. I see it in her and I see her doing the same thing I am but in those moments....she can't see herself along with how she is behaving and I know that is just part of the denial.
The whole point of figuring out triggers is to avoid them in the future. If you can't even tell someone what your triggers are and how they are tripping them.....they will never stop doing it. I do think she hears me and she does think about it.....but she'll never admit to it and won't begin to communicate with me in a civil manner without that becoming an issue. That's why I know that I need to be patient with her. It took me a couple of years in therapy before I really started catching on.
The part about resisting therapy is really troubling to me to. She needs it more than I do now but that's not a topic I dare even bring up with here. Maybe someday but right now....giving her room to breathe and allowing her to vent and not reacting is the best course of action I have found right now. That does mean to a certain point....I just have to sit and take it. By not reacting though....she comes back rather quickly.
One bit of progress I can share that just started happening with us that I have started initiating that seems to be moving in the right direction.....we've had a couple of moments recently where things start to ramp up.....and I have stopped them and told her.."lets just move on and not go there and go back to where we were a few minutes ago." In reality.....I'd rather talk these things through but that I know is not working. She seems to be very comfortable just trying to forget about these things and forget they even happened when it comes to her end. In the long run....this is not a good strategy ( just more denial). In the short run....it serves not to derail these moments and just move past them. The one thing I have totally let go of is trying to get or needing an apology from her. She will come back and say she is sorry in a general sense.....but pinning her down to her actual behavior and the specific thing she did that triggered me is still not on the table yet. No way Jose.
J
You need help now...Don't wait....
Submitted by c ur self on
Honeyblonde I suggest you stay in a good counselor's office....I wish we had...You've been through to much to not try to set some boundaries and hopefully get on the same page going into this marriage....High emotions and verbal abuse must be dealt with now!....Don't hope it will get better!...My wife was a complete mental case at times on our honeymoon....She was setting across from me on our flight back to the states (sets weren't together) shooting me the bird, I was in shock and angry most of the week...When the plane landed I should have set down wrote it all down...,My stuff also...Took her to a good Christian counselor and set boundaries and what will be and will not be acceptable....And stick to it....
All of us can and do have issues but we must be aware and work on it and show respect for our spouses and the boundaries. Or we need to end it, There is no reason in my opinion to ever put up with abuse or cheating...Especially if there is no repentance and real change....The only way to deal with denial (closed mind) and blindness it to walk away w/o a word...Never make it your problem. And if you try to speck to a closed mind it will always be your problem...
Blessing C
C
When they say they can't...?
Submitted by jlhrva on
C -
What do you do when they say they can't - absolutely, categorically CANNOT - change the rage/anger? When they say that it's a symptom of a mental illness, and by asking them to change, you might as well be saying "stop having ADHD"?
Setting boundaries doesn't work...they apparently can't be respected, due to complete inability to regulate....
hi Jlhrva....
Submitted by c ur self on
First off, that's a cope out....We all can change mental Illness or not....But, awareness is the key....You will have to decide, I know what I would do....
C
ACOA -You Bet!!
Submitted by jlhrva on
J - some the things that you are describing in your wife are almost textbook-to-the-letter hardcore ACOA tendencies. Reactivity, perfectionism, intense irritability, and discomfort with/refusal to acknowledge personal faults. Actual criticism is one of THE scariest things you can do to an ACOA person who is not in recovery. They have devoted (consciously or uncousciously) nearly ALL of their mental energy over their entire life to trying to be good enough for EVERYONE. "If no one finds any fault with me, then I am worthy! I can be loved because I did EVERYTHING RIGHT!" You see, in order to provide even the slight chance that the alcoholic or dysfunctional parent will notice you in a positive way, or - gasp! - provide actual approval! - is to be PERFECT. Every. Second. Every. Day.
I know. I am one, and I used to exhibit many of the traits you're describing. I am not perfect by any means, now, and never will be, but there has been a radical, tectonic shift in my life, perspective, and behavior, just based on identifying these tendencies and knowing how to be on guard against them. These subtle patterns are insidious and pervasive, and they impact nearly every aspect of interaction and perception.
If she is truly not aware that she is ACOA...is there any way to get her to a meeting? Any Al-Anon meeting will be a good start, but a good ACOA group can be a lifeline in a storm.
I would encourage you to talk to your T about a referral and, if she's resistant, a plan for how to get her in there.
All the best!
Wow Jlhrva....Thank You So Much
Submitted by kellyj on
Just like I was mentioning about diagnosis and trying to read up on these symptoms...then trying to match them to some kind of specific disorder is challenging at best.......and then trying to match them to something tangible to tell you what you can do about it. Not trying to fix them.....just trying to navigate them so you don't accidently step on some hidden trip wire or trigger that completely sets them off???? Eggs shells doesn't describe this. All that happens when you step on eggs shells is they go "crunch". If that was the worst of it.....I wouldn't be worried about it. What's the harm with a few broken egg shells anyway....and what will happen to you if you step on a few? Get reprimanded for doing it? I only wish.
This is a freaking mine field and when you step on one of them.....they blow up and so do you along with it!
For you.....I feel for you deeply in that I really can relate to some of the things you said. Having ADHD can create a scenario similar to this in that....if one or more parents basically reject you and decide that they don't like you (or love you) for being the way you are....it doesn't take alcoholism or anything like it to create the same dynamic you are talking about.
In respect to this.....I was very fortunate. I did have one parent exactly as I described and it took it's toll on me in a very similar way. I was also lucky enough to have a parent who was just the opposite of this and loved all of us equally despite their own failings. I think it only takes one like this to make up the difference. Without that.....you would be left in a situation just like my wife...
How you described this in your own words hit the mark for me better tha anything else I have come across to help me better understand......the part I didn't understand. In respect to this.....it helps explain a lot.....actually, almost everything. Thank you so much for putting it so succinctly and clearly me so I now can apply this to my wife in order to make sense of it. Deeply appreciated.
Having said that.....a new issue just manifested itself in the last couple of days which has now created a whole new problem for me that I am unsure of exactly the specific next steps to take but self protection appears to be the first step in the process I now have to initiate for myself. This just came crashing down on my head as of this morning despite my best efforts to be supportive.....
My wife got a call two nights ago from the nursing facility where her mother had been moved too just before Christmas when she fell and broke her hip. The call was to tell her that her mother had just passed away due to something that is yet unknown? This unforseen condition with no further explanation took everyone by surprise.
Yesterday....I tried to be there and supportive the best I could and things seemed to be alright at least with what I was doing and my wife thanked me for being there for her. This morning....I woke up to a ticking time bomb. It went off only minutes after my wife gave me a list of things she wanted me to do and then almost immediately...turned around and nuked me for saying the wrong thing which I still don't know what that was? When I said I didn't understand....she fell apart and started screaming at me "I hate you...I hate you"
For me....that was it. That's the last time I get screamed at and told from the person I love who I am trying to help by doing what they ask me to do (willingly)...and then turns around and screams at you that "they hate you". This time.....I believe her and that she means it. It's what shows in everything she does and it is the same feeling I got from a parent who felt the same way about me. I'm pretty good at doing math and putting 2 + 2 together. I'm done. It's the only requirement I havd that is not negotiable....that is.....not hating me.....that's the point of no return for my wife or anyone for that matter.....I have more self respect than that even if she doesn't.
I am now approaching my wife as a hostile witness who does not have my best interest in mind from here on out. I hate you says it all and I have enough self esteem to expect more for myself in all regards. I learned my lessons well from my past and self protection is the order of the day when you are with someone who hates you. Fuck you, asshole or any other thing that could have been said would be different. I could care less about throwing turd balls like this or name calling or labeling....none of that means anything anyway. But "I hate you" is specific and means exactly what it means without any misunderstanding. That's crossing a line there's no coming back from.....at this point.....I know exactly what I must do to protect myself because people who hate you are going to hurt you if you don't. At least....that's my experience and experience is the best teacher. It's important not to say things that you cannot take back. Name calling is irrelevant and meaningless.....telling someone straight up that they hate im a moment when they aren't holding it back and there guard is down is the best way to really know.
The thing is....I don't hate anyone....ever. A person who feels hate like this cannot be trusted....ever!! Done deal. At least I know. That's all I need to know and I now know exactly what to do and what not to do but that.....I won't be sharing with the enemy and will be keeping it to myself. Game on......it is adversarial now even if I do nothing in response which I am very good at keeping to myself and not letting my hand show. It is how I survived in the same situation I have been in before and that much I do know how to do....unfortunately:(
Unfortunately.....this is the thing that she was not saying before that she was holding in and keeping hidden until just now. She has lashed out like this in the past and said that once before but I gave her the benefit of the doubt. You only get one of those in my book and a second time only confirms it. That's what she wasn't saying an it took her mother dying to actually say it. Oh well.....such is life. I did try and did put my best effort in....that is all anyone can do.
J
I am so, so sorry...
Submitted by jlhrva on
J, I am so very sorry that you had to hear that and experience that realization. I have struggled so much with wondering whether my partner really meant some of the heated "in the moment" things that have been said over the past 2 years, and I understand exactly what you mean. That fear/knowledge that this is what was meant all along, it just took this pressure to push it to the surface.
My relationship ended this week, on a similar note. Things that couldn't be taken back, or that I can't get past were said, and the only mitigation I got was "I have a mental illness; I can't change this, even if I thought it was the real problem, which I don't."
No going back from that. It leaves me no outs. You won't work, I can't accept the behavior, so...
i just finished unloading my things into my new apartment. I have been crying now for 3 straight days. Can barely see out of swollen eyes. He is the most beautiful, unique, brilliant human being I have ever known, in every way other than the way he interacts with me. And that's the one thing I can't compromise on.
I feel for you so deeply.
I encourage you to find an ACOA meeting for yourself. You have dealt with all of the behaviors and the trauma. There are many spouses of adult children at these meetings as well. They can benefit from your support, and I know you will find empathy and comfort there.
My blessings and thoughts are with you...
J
Day of Reckoning....A New Developement.. Thanks to You Jlhrva
Submitted by kellyj on
Thank you for your encouragement Jlhrva....and thank you for something much bigger than that. In your time of need.....I can share something with you that I think you might be interested in hearing. I've been saying this to my wife for quite some time now...... when I have reached the end of my rope in these moments like yesterday when we have run out of road and I am so angry that it is almost unbearable not to say something am I am NOT losing my cool ( like yesterday)....it becomes hard not or do "nothing" and just take it like I have had to do so many times in the past.
In respect to what my T has said to me repeatedly ie: "don't react....and just let it go".....sometimes, from a somewhat healthy place in this case...and like I was saying about having enough self respect and clarity that comes from that...."nothing" is not always the best thing to do or at least....a modified version of it. In the moment.....I do understand the value of talking yourself down and using this advise to do it.....but I have also found at least with my wife....that tailoring what you say and not reacting "badly" yourself does afford you a little room to actually speak up and not stand for unacceptable hurtful behavior regardless of the circumstances. This was the case with my wife yesterday.
As I have commented to my T in response to him sometimes as well....." I am not Jesus.....and I'm not sure I want to be a martyr either..... simply for the sake of being that enlightened to the point of always turning the other cheek without catching the other person by the hand at the last second before it hits your face.....then twisting their arm and wrestling them to the ground into a submission hold until they stop attacking you or to show them that your not a "punching bag" and you CAN and will defend yourself if you have to and are pushed to that point.
I can't speak for anyone else here because this is not something that I have just learned how to do. In fact.... It seems as it always has been for me.....there is a point where flight or freeze doesn't work and running away or turning the other cheek no longer becomes an option and you need to turn and fight and not stand for abuse of any kind if that is truly what is happening. This I do without a second thought when it comes to compromising myself or my self respect in moments when confronted with someone who feels like they are bullying or trying to take advantage of the situation over you.
With all due respect to my wife's situation with her mother dying and expecting some consideration in the moment because of that.....I just put my own mother to rest not long ago and have also done the same with my own father.....to the point of being in the same room with both of them and witnessing them dying in front of my own eyes.......that's reality for you and nothing can prepare you for that experience until your there.
And in respect to someone who doesn't deal with moments like this well, or needs to stay/be in denial to soften the blow.....I have also witnessed in the same kind of moment..... with my own sister being one example.....those who really didn't manage that experience well and became rather self absorbed in diverting the attention and focus from what is really happening to the person dying and what their needs are in the moment.....to themselves and their grief and denial instead. In respect to that and in granting myself the ability to stay calm and collected at times of crisis.....this is also something that I don't find difficult to do and am not really sure where that comes from? Yet.....it's something that I have done most of my life ever since I was quite young.,,..that is....instead of falling apart and coming unglued at the seams in a critical moment.....I get extreme clarity and problem solving abilities and can take action almost in an instant which almost feels instinctual rather than a though process instead of just mindlessly reacting.
In that respect.....it's not a knee jerk reaction...and this extreme clarity of mind which is not coming from anger and emotion but more pure rational thought.... this is just how I am made. Fear, anger, pain and irrationality appear to completely leave the building might be a good way to describe it and I know it when I'm there. Cool under fire is another good way to describe this feeling.....and when it happens....I feel incredibly lucid and my thought process is free from distortions of any kind. My decision making process is usually very good at these times. Trusting myself to know what to do based on this feeling? I guess that was what I was trying to say to my T as well....sometimes taking matters into your own hands and doing it well is not always a bad thing to do IF you can do it well?
So in light of this....and the situation yesterday.....what I saw was my wife excusing her behavior (once again) by taking this victim attitude that says..."it all about me in this moment so therefore.....I am not responsible for my own behavior if I act out and behave badly regardless of what comes out of my mouth." In other words (like my sister).....it's Okay to make this all about me because my pain and suffering is so great! From my own place of clarity in comparison.....I call Bullshit on that one too.
Talking responsibility for your actions does not disqualify you from keeping your shit together in times of crisis and taking your grief out on other people and entitling you to unacceptable behavior even if you can somehow make yourself believe or justify this to yourself out of your own inability to do it ...."been there, done that.....so can you" in my own thinking of these moments. And even If you can't do it right now......you can learn......and now's as good a time as any. Cowboy up!!!"
Yesterday....was one of those moments for me. Without even thinking about this or taking it a step further in my mind.....I insisted (with great resistance and protest) that my wife hear what you had written to me. In my own moment of desperation and clarity.......this is how I dealt with this situation in a calm but rather persistent (not taking no for an answer) kind of way. I figured that your words (as I said) had really hit the mark with me and felt like it was either confront her dragon now...or just have this keep happening to us every time my wife starts falling apart and feels the need to kick the dog (me) each time this happens.
If you can you need to feel good about yourself and something that you have done to help someone else in your own time of need....whether you know it or not....this is exactly what you did even if it was not your intention. By me forcing my wife to hear your words.....it brought her to a place where she could hear it and actually responded to it since.....she new it was true:)
Or at least part of it. She still had to reject any part of the ACOA applying to her mother which in respect to the moment....that is understandable......but the experience of growing up around heavy drinking and drunken fighting and chaos was still on the table enough for her to entertain the notion that this effect was at the root of many of her problems. The fact that this is not a diagnosis but an experience that caused this was also palatable enough for her to admit that going to an ACOA meeting and finding out more about it was worth exploring.
And for me....that was enough to change how I felt about our future together. It is....after all.....what I have been needing from her as well. In these past moments out of absolute frustration....I have told my wife that her day of reckoning was coming and it was only a matter of time before she was going to have to accountable for her self and her actions or I wasn't going to stay with her if she didn't. Possibly threatening her with this kind of ultimatum in the past had predisposed her to think along these lines without having to say it....in fact.....she was the one who reminded me of this yesterday and said I guess this is the day ( even if it was done with a fair amount of sarcasm as she said it)
So ......Jlhrva.....you can take some credit here in helping me do something with her that I have failed to be able to do by speaking so authentically and honestly about yourself so someone else who is not where you are could hear you ( even remotely ) and have those words reach someone who needed to hear it. I owe you for that and am so thankful that you responded to me when you did. Without taking this any further......you should feel good about yourself and the courage it takes to admit the parts of yourself that you recognize and know that is your responsibility. By doing this fore yourself ( comparing my situation from the sound of your H in your case) you were able to do this for someone else by speaking the words of someone who has been there and who has also found some healthier ways to counter act the effect this had on you. You should feel good about yourself and I am for you in this moment. Take that with you and know that it really did help:) Thank you.
J
Some food for thought in a time of crisis
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Sun, 01/17/2016 - 10:35 Originally posted as a reply to the wrong comment. Moved here where it should have been posted.
J,
Food for thought. Devil's advocate. Whatever you may choose to call it.
I am an adult child of an alcoholic. I struggle with co-dependant responses to situation - I want to just rush in and fix.
2 thoughts came to my mind as I read though your discussion:
1. Should/would/could a definitive choice about a marriage be based on some very painful words blurted out in the time of fresh grief after less than 48 hours of losing a mother?
2. In that time of fresh grief, Liz would not be open to hearing words written to my spouse by another woman on a forum.
As said in Al-Anon meetings: "Take what you need, and leave the rest."
I am sorry for the loss of your mother-in-law.
My condolences,
Liz
Thanks Liz.....Wise Words to Follow
Submitted by kellyj on
What comes to mind was my experience teaching swimming lessons to kids when I was in college (ranging in age from 4 to 9 years old). One of the things I had my kids do was to climb the high dive platform to the lowest level and jump off. Almost every kid couldn't wait to do this with very few exceptions...but for those few who did have an issue with this.....they would tend to stand at the edge and look down and then simply get frozen and not jump. Most of the time....the other kids would taunt and yell at them to "jump, jump!!!"...which only made this worse ( I would tell them all to "shut up!!" and just let them do it) But in few cases.....I would allow the kids to climb back down the ladder if they really found it too hard to over come but.....I only allowed that twice. After that once they were up there....I told them they could not come back down again this time. Only one way to go and that is straight down!! Which eventually.....under those circumstances.....they had no other choice.( in which....they all did it when not given the option )
I think there is a time and a place to do this and at least in respect to the results I got yesterday.....sometimes someone who is sitting there at the edge looking over and just won't jump needs a little push every now and then for their own good. Usually under those circumstances as well....once they are safe in the water and discover that their fears were not justified....they come to that conclusion rather quickly and you won't need to keep pushing them anymore once they have that experience.
This is a judgment call that sometimes you have to make without any guarantee of success. But the fear of it not working, could be the very thing to keep you from doing it and never knowing if that would have worked or not. The only way to know this is just to try and see if it works. You'll know that too once you do it. In respect to what you thought would not have worked for you....in the case with my wife....it did.
Something was telling me she was that little kid standing on the diving platform and just afraid to jump and she had already had more than two chances before I gave that too her already. Time to poop or get off the pot as they say...especially if they are using that as an excuse to not take the bull by the horns and get over their inability to take these things out on you to compensate. In the moment as I said......sometimes this clarity can make it easier to make those kind of judgment calls.
And thank you for expressing the loss of my mother in law. All things considered here.....nothing can ever prepare you for that and it's easy to be forgiving as well. Check all the above here for me. In the moment...clearly...I was not feeling this way. Mostly.....because I was actually being there and doing what I should have been doing with her. I was going out of my way in doing this and still....the response was that she hated me. That's a tough one to make yourself keep doing what you know is right.....when the other person is taking out their own pain onto you. Within a reasonable limit......I think there is still a line that has to be drawn even then or your still just enabling. Different day......different excuse....that's all it is. Tomorrow....it'll be something else:)
J
Humbled and happy for you...
Submitted by jlhrva on
I'm so happy to hear that you were able to make a breakthrough with this information, J :) And I really, truly hope both you and your wife will find some clarity and some peace through her being open to considering this line of self awareness.
I know what you mean about the clarity and precision of thought and reaction that can come under stress like that. Turning the other cheek, being the bigger person, etc, etc, is all well and good, but we all have breaking points. And sometimes the other party needs to see that they have reached one in order to bring them to face hard truths.
But the funny thing about telling the truth is that it ALWAYS makes you feel better. No matter how hard your working to hide from it, mask it, run away from, or avoid it...once you've faced the truth, you can begin doing something ABOUT it. And that actually requires less energy and is less stressful than the thousand things you were doing to prevent yourself from seeing it.
Gettig out of our own way, I believe, is one of the most healing and powerful things we can do for ourselves or our partners, and I'm humbled that I may have been a part of helping that process along.
Thoughts & blessings.
J
JJ. I'm so sorry to hear that
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
JJ. I'm so sorry to hear that you're going thru all of this. Also sorry to hear about the loss of your mom in law.
I don't know what to say. It can be hard to determine if this is just your wife in deep grief and lashing out at anything or what.
This part of the thread had become very hard to follow, can you start a new thread?
Thanks OW....I Can Sum This Up...
Submitted by kellyj on
quickly (surprisingly I know? lol)....DENIAL.... And then what to do about it? If you think about all the problems you've had with your H through the years....the root of it is from denial not necessarily from his inability or the potential capacity to see all these things for himself. It's not a choice as much as you just learn not to do it. You learn every time you do it, causes you to be depressed and feel badly about yourself and it hurts....so why do it?
To make this distinction even easier to understand.....I myself was not good about seeing myself as others saw me before I discovered I had ADHD.....this is true and fits the symptoms that you read about this. But that's only because you don't really know what to look for and why since in certain aspects to this....you need to understand what it is that causes our symptoms and then try and connect them to the behaviors themselves. Before your diagnosed.....this is hard to do for yourself without someone pointing these things out to you and explaining it too you since the first thing you need to do is make those differentiation from what is ADHD and what is not. At least at first....it is really important for you to get someone to help with this even WHEN you are looking for them.
Even then..... it's not always easy without some help from an observer to point these things out to you once your armed with enough information to do this. In that respect.....I was aware there was something wrong but still didn't know exactly which things were causing what? But looking at them or trying to see them was not as much an issue for me. Knowing how and what to look for was. That's what they mean when you read this in the descriptions of symptoms and common problems we have associated with having ADHD. In respect to this and the reasons why someone stays in denial however...... because they are basically trying to protect their self esteem and the entire believe system of themselves that they have in their minds eye and their fragile self image of themselves which is the very thing they are trying to protect by NOT looking at these things in the first place. It's the looking at these things itself (along with having to admit they exist) that is not tolerable (along with the pain of having to admit to yourself that there's really something wrong with you and then actually having to start looking for these things as you go to identify what you hear other people are talking about when they are trying to point these things out......it's almost like having to look in a mirror for the very first time)
. But if you can't even get past this primary denial to do this in the first place....it's not that hard to figure out why they will do anything they can do to NOT LOOK AT THEMSELVES because of the pain and confusion that this would cause. That's what they are choosing not to do....to feel this pain and the confusion which is a scary proposition. It is scary....it is painful....and it is very confusing all at the same time. If you can't get past that part and muscle your way through it.....You'll be just like the kids I was describing standing there on the edge of the diving platform and afraid of jumping in and just doing it. The fear of it to start with is the first obstacle to get over before you will be able to just step off and let nature and gravity take control with no say in the matter after that.
So if you can understand what I just said....you can also apply that to anyone in denial about anything like this for what ever reason...ADHD or not. It's all for the same reason. The hard part is getting over the fear and the anger that can go along with it just to be able to look at it. In respect to so many spouses who come here to this forum looking for help and trying to determine these differences themselves.....the vast majority of behaviors and symptoms or causes are not from ADHD.....but from denial and all the energy and resistance that a person who has adopted this strategy as a means for self protection ......is using up to fight against you and anyone else who attempts to simply point out these symptoms out in the first place and go...."hey....these things are causing me a problem....what can we do about it?(the actual ADHD symptoms themselves and the effect they have on you). If you think about it.....without the denial there itself.....this should be a rather simple conversation and it would immediately turn to trying to find answers and compromises and getting to some kind of resolution? In a perfect world without denial.....this would be the easy part?
And taking what I just said and applying it to my wife.....she's not going to look at these things and do anything about it since it is the very thing she believes that she can't or doesn't want to do. That much....she's already decided to a certain point so trying to get her to change and looking at these things is exactly what she doesn't want to do. That includes taking out her frustrations and anger about anything on the nearest person who happens force her to see herself in the mirror. So....despite the fact that losing her mother is an understandable time to grant some allowance for not being at your best.....the pattern is however....that anything that causes her emotional discomfort or pain is going to be consistently go along with taking these things out on me or someone else and refusal to see herself and why this is just kicking the dog behavior. The worse the pain or emotional discomfort is....the more she feels the need to kick the dog. So in light of her mom passing away.....that means either I step up and head this off....or she is just going to be even more abusive and angry instead of being able to process these uncomfortable emotions in a healthy was and not try dumping them on the nearest warm body or receptacle she can find.
And in respect to me and doing everything I could do to be helpful and supportive......I'm still that receptacle or warm body and that's where I was compelled to force the issue and throw that mirror in her face and force her to take a look at herself as painful as this might have been to do. It was either that....or watch a repeat performance of what I already know I can expect any times she has challenges in her life but is not able to process these things through without dumping them onto someone else.
It's called biting the hand that feeds you and in this case....I just wasn't going to allow it and chose this time when she was already reliving some of these things ie" the memories and emotions from her past...that come along with this experience with the passing of her mother."
That was the part I was saying about.....now is as good a time as any. In respect to my own experience with this....my gut was telling me actually....the perfect time as well. What better time than to bring this up than right in the middle of her kicking the dog and being a victim who is in denial. Sometimes one wake up call begat's another in my thinking? And it does seem appear from the discussion that came of it....that it was the right thing to do this time. We talked about more to do with her denial in just one day than we have in the entire time we have been together. I think it was exactly what she needed even though I had to really force her hand to do it Denial is the cause for all of this and why this is so difficult I think. And getting someone out of the denial is the first thing that needs to happen before anything else will. Again....IMHO:)
I can start a new thread but I really think this is exactly what is/has been going on with the two of us. At least I wanted to conclude with saying that my wife agreed to finding our local Al-non, ACOA chapter meetings and going to hear what they have to say as long as I go along with her. I told her....of course:) If she can get past the denial part.....the rest will be academic as they say:) Speaking from that same experience that is. lol
J
It is a trap
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
The Now....Not Now? Not Sure About That Liz? Will You Help Me?
Submitted by kellyj on
I have refrained myself from commenting on the concept of this "Now....not now" and I was glad I didn't since I really wasn't sure what this was trying to describe until just last week when it was explained by Melissa in the seminar on the first nights lecture. As soon as she actually described it...saying...it was a phrase coined by Dr Hallowell himself in trying to describe it....it immediately made sense to me when put into that context where before....that part was missing in being able to identify and apply it....but only until then, then did I know EXACTlY the symptom he was describing.
As I see it.....and I definitely see it.....I'm now understanding why I was at first, feeling that something wasn't lining up in the context it was being used here on the forum sometimes and why I was feeling like something wasn't matching up? This seems much clearer to me now in all regards.
Even as I first heard mention to this and immediately grabbing onto the "temporal" meaning of the words ie: past, present (now), future....I know get what and why Dr Hallowell used that phrase to describe this but it is not in the same context as I originally thought. I know this one well and I just wasn't matching that to what I thought it was..OR possibly.....how that got translated to you or people who don't have ADHD. Let me re-explain this in my own words to make this a little easier to understand.
This I do feel is a core component to ADHD....without question. But what is it really? Is it an inability or a lack of capacity? Or is it just one of those things that is a bit more mysterious? For you....I think it's the latter....for us, it's as normal and familiar as any other symptom we have and happens all the time everywhere we go. In light of this being applied to denial, I do think there is an indirect relationship but as a cause or contributing factor.....I'm struggling to make that connection?
So what is it? Try replacing the word "Now" with "Invisible" and see if that doesn't make more sense? If something is "invisible"...and then "not invisible"....that means that when it's not.....you can see it. In the "physical sense" in which this is referring to.....we miss things sometimes because they can "disappear" when we get singularly focused or hyper focus on one thing at the exclusion of another.
It's why we leave cupboard doors open....it why we can walk right past a pile of things on the floor and seemingly not notice them.....it why we lose track of time and find our selves late or missing appointments (in a temporal sense but that's only the results....that is .....time again but that just the result as applied to this).....it's why things disappear or we lose track of things ( back to the physical manifestation again)......
But the most poignant way I can describe this phenomenon here....is to describe this phenomenon in relationship to something I cannot explain...yet....I know this so well it absolutely frustrates the hell out of me at times!!!! It exasperatingly frustrating and I am proof positive that this is ADHD for that very reason....at the core!
For example.......I can take a stack of papers that I have to work on (say taxes or home work)....and then try and work on it or do a project requiring me to access the information of each page and organize the papers so I can reference the information as needed. As soon as I start doing this....the first thing I do is spread all the pages out on the floor or table or desk....and if I run out of room....I start using other surfaces near by to lay them all out so I can see EVERYTHING at once if I stand back and look at it.
Then, I organize this in a way that the information I need is put into categories by types or categories.... and organize them in the way I need them to be, to be able to find them again as needed to access what I need as quickly and easily as possible. Many times.....I have to re-shuffle the order of the pages from their original linear progression ie : chapter one, page one....2, 3 , 4 etc.....in a completely different organizational pattern based not on linear progression....but by matching the information needed....to where it needs to be applied in the actual order of the steps or timing of the actual "doing of the project" in linear order of the steps and stages of the actual "doing" of the home work or taxes in this example.
So if the information in chapter six page 212 is what I need to work on first...then it becomes Page 1,chapter 1 and sits in the first position moving from left to right on the floor in the way I have everything laid out. By the time I get this all arranged in the "new order" from the order it started out being....I am now ready to begin working on the "doing" aspect of filling out taxes or doing any kind of project that requires constantly re-referencing data and information so I can do it in the steps I need to do it that will make sense to me. By the time I get to this place in the project (the first step)....the numbers or designations and the order they were all in originally in .....has now been completely shuffled and re-catagorized in the order in which I need it to be and the way I need to approach it based on "how it gets done" and the steps I need to take to do it and it's all laid out in front of me so I can see it because the numbers on the pages and the linear progression it all started out being is completely irrelevant and meaningless now (even the word "shuffle" is a misnomer only used for you to understand or visualize what I do....for me, I am actually 'unshuffling" the order which makes no sense to me base on the author or the order it was presented in....into a functional order for me to be able to use it effectively and quickly get the information I need to actually use it...not just read about or understand it.....and THEN.....I begin actually "doing" the project and it's all organized (in my mind) and laid out so I can see everything at a glance.
So picture my wife or anyone else coming along and going "WOW!! What a mess? I'll just help him get organized and put this all back together like it should be to help him get organized". Which...if done like most people would do....put it in neat stacks or piles occupying only a desk top all arranged in linear order again starting with Chapter 1, page 1 and so on......
This would be the equivalent of someone coming along and jumping into the middle of some project you were working on that requires specific steps for specific reasons to be done in a specific order in order for the completely project to work and come out done properly in the finished end or completed form. Picture you baking bread and needing to let the dough rise first before you put it in the oven and someone comes along and just throws it in the oven because they walk into the room....see the oven pre-heated and sees the dough sitting in the pan and decides to be helpful and put it in the oven for you as if to do you a favor? What will the bread turn out looking like if someone were to do this?
In same way.....the part that this person didn't see (or can't see) is the fact that the dough needed to rise and expand first....before they put it in the oven. The invisible part or secret of baking bread and why it works in the first place? Unless you want flat bread. Lets assume in this case....you didn't. Now the bread is ruined and you have to start over.
And just like this example with me trying to do homework or taxes.....the secret or the part that is invisible to you....is the way I have it all organized and the fact that as soon as you pile it all back up again in nice neat stacks in linear order like it started out like....everything thing I did and all the reasons why are gone....I know have to start over again and my initial organization is ruined and I can't do the project now.....at this point..I have to start over. And I have to have everything laid out so I can see it in "MY" organized pattern because my pattern and a need for it to be this way comes from this 'Now....Not Know"....inability to see things and be able to do them as needed.....not because I "Can't See Them"......but I can't "access the information" because that completely becomes invisible to me and dissappears unless it is done in a way that I can access it and use it. I know it's there....but it's effectively "gone" and "becomes invisible" if I can't use it even if I know it's there.
In a physical sense...of course I can see it. I have eyes...and I know it's there. But If I can't use it or need it in a different form or organized way that becomes easily and clear for me to find and access at the time when I actually need it.....that in itself becomes a treasure hunt and my ability to focus on finding it again each time I need it when it's not clearly visible and out in front of me makes it nearly impossible to do any other way.
At that point....the person trying to help me just sabotaged me and made it impossible to do what I need to do. At that point.....I have to start over again from scratch....since I have completely lost context and reference to the thing or information I need....to simply find it again and then do the thing I need that information for....or the physical item I need.....just in order to do what I need and want to do in the first place....the project or "task" at hand. Tha'ts the only "NOW" or temporal aspect about this entire phenomenon.....accessing or finding information "in the now" in order to do what I need to do...in the "now".
But this has nothing to do with time. Tracking time as one side effect of this yes.....but this is not a temporal phenomenon meaning....."when" has nothing to do with it? How is the only thing that is relevant and my inability to organize these things in my head without laying them all out and categorizing the information (or thing) just to be able to reference, access and find it again when I need it. That's what this is all about right there.
Is this an ADHD symptom? OMG....in spades!!!
But in direct reference to denial and how this contributes? I'm still not seeing the connection. Saying this a different way......90% or my waking existence does not involve this phenomenon. I can see things as clearly as the next person and do it just as well. I see what you see but what you don't see is this phenomenon because it doesn't exist the same as as this does for me. I know better than anyone why it exists from the need I have to do things in these specific ways because of my inability to organize in my head without manually doing this which is the physical manifestation of this part of my dysfunction (or ADHD inability).
This "physical manifestation" is the symptom and may look like I don't see things or just walk past them because I "can't see them". It's not that I "can't see them" or don't have the ability to "see".....but when I hyper focus or get too narrowing focused on something....or it is done in a way that requires me to have to sort and organize it in a way that makes sense to me to be able to use it......it is "in the effect" this phenomenon has.... invisible...... or becomes that way momentarily until I redirect my focus and rearrange it all so I can access it just to make use of it. But I can "see it" in the physical sense....but it's useless or in-useable in the form it is currently in.
At that point....it's meaningless or has no value to me if I can't use it to do what i need to do. If that's the case....I'm looking for things I can use....not things I can't . Those things effectively become "invisible" and I just don't notice them since I'm not trying to look for them. But if I stop and look for those things now if I choose.....I can and do see them too just like everyone else....just not always when I need to or when I should. This is the understandably confusing part that you will never understand because you don't have this inability. The only thing you can do is witness this and try to explain it based on your ability to do it....not the inability that you don't have? If that makes sense. One might asume that this applies to everything and jump to that concluion. I understand this better than you because that's what people do......everyone pretty much who does not know what this is like. In reality.....you have both the inability and the ability....what you don't have is a choice of when and how the inability gets played out or when this happens. But the "when" part is really not the cause or the actual source of the problem underlying it...yet....based on "timing" vs "time".......it's still just another "inconsistency not a chronic state of being. " Most of time.....I'm not like this....only sometimes and briefly at best and then I go right back to not being this way.
Consistent.....inconsistency.....not a complete or total malfunction or ":inability." I highlighted that because this is a fact not a speculation.
"Now...not now" compared "invisible"....."not invisible"......nothing up my sleeve.....Presto!! Now you see it! lol That's how this works.
So in context to what you were saying about time blindness and the "now...not now" thing I just described......it's just a "symptom" or "physical manifestation" of something else completely unrelated to time or the inability to track or keep track of time. I can do that as well or better than anyone else...most of the time.
"When" has nothing to do with it along with any inability to physically be able to see things of find them or notice anything the same as you. For the vast majority of our waking existence....we do this the same as everyone else but with these momentary or periodic "blips" on the radar screen. The rest of time tough....we see things as easily and the same as everyone else. Invisible...not invisible.....not invisible being most of the time or the norm.
With denial however, this is "a chronic state of being" when it's bad enough that makes it impossible to see these thing ever. That's the one critical difference and it's the main difference between these two things that prevents you from seeing it....ever, not just inconsistently not seeing the things we all see just sometimes and not others.
It's not ADHD, gender or even disorder specific. It doesn't even need a disorder to cause someone to be in denial. Denial itself is a physic defense against pain and used self protection and caused by a manifestation of low self esteem and a need to protect something out of fear and uncomfortable feelings of vulnerability which is the consequences of having to see these things and therefore....turning away and trying to ignore them out of this need on a subconscious level. That's a completely different thing for a completely different reason than this time blindness 'now ...not now" thing which is on a physical..."nut's and bolt".... inability or dysfunction on that level caused directly by the ADHD which is not just ignoring or choosing not to....but an involuntary, momentary malfunction you have no means of control over or any choice to make it happen or not happen no matter how hard you try. All you can do is predict it and work around it. That's the only choice you have but you can do this to prevent it and that's the part you want to see. This is not about being aware of it or not seeing it.....it learning how to work around it but seeing it or not does not change it or give you any ability to control it or make it stop whether you can see it or not. If that makes sense? You may think we don't see it because that's what it looks like...but here's the kicker.....denial will allow you not to see it. But the symptom itself is just another symptom. Denial works for ALL symptoms and this one just mimics denial in that way so you might assume that it is somehow connected but it's not? Indirectly by association yes.....But absolutely from the cause or source.....they are two distinctly different things that only appear on the outside as similar or possible for the same reason. No...in no uncertain terms.
In that respect.....you have not idea what this is like because it doesn't happen to you but.....it's not from a need for physic defense and protect a person from psychic pain.....in fact.....it's not a need or choice on that level at all....to the degree....there is no choice or choosing this phenomenon whether we like it or not.
This is one way I can know the difference.....when I choose to do something without denial, irrational thought or for any reason outside of the realm of emotional or behavioral....and keep hitting up against these things repeatedly every time I try for no other reason or explanation.....It helps me pin-point the real dysfunction inside my brain.
When it comes to denial however....I have the same ability or potential to change it as anyone else....either to be in it...or not. That's a choice to a certain degree....but even after I choose not to be or don't want to be.....my ADHD does not interfere AT ALL with making that choice and then acting on it of making changes to it. The 'Now...not now" thing has nothing to do with it and is not a symptom or cause of the denial itself.
Like I said....denial is defense and self protection and is behavioral....that's a "thinking and belief" thing....not a physical manifestation or symptom of a "doing thing" or the wiring inside my brain caused by ADHD. Function....not ...form.
I've said this before and I will say it again.....ADHD does not cause thinking. You can change thinking anytime you want and that's true for us who have ADHD as well. Nothing is stopping us or you along with deciding to feel the pain and stop being in denial and making that choice but seeing yourself in denial in the first place is the very thing that prevents someone from changing or being able to actually look. That's a choice but the pain is real. You can't have one without the other....what is needed is courage and a willingness to do it....that's all.
(and sometimes a push now and then when you get frozen with fear and tell yourself you can't even though everyone knows you can....just like my kids who were afraid to jump and would stand there staring down at the water and only wanted to climb back down the ladder so they wouldn't have to deal with it and try and talk their way out of it. Not giving them the chance brought them to make that decision and then do it for themselves with no other option. Denial works the same way whether you have ADHD or not. It doesn't preclude us or give us any less inability to do this than you IMHO....maybe only, harder since we have more obstacles to face before we get to that point....it's a process and it has steps you have to take to get there....one step at a time)
If you're being an enabler....you aren't pushing at all (just the opposite) or maybe not hard enough...... and probably not done when you should be doing it..... and probably doing it when you shouldn't be doing it.....and probably in the wrong way....or trying to apply it to things like the "now...not now" symptom that we can't actually change or have any control in stopping which only makes us furious because we have no control of it in that way...... or just not very well.
It's not the "pushing" or "not pushing" in this case.....it's doing it wrong...... applying if wrong...... making the wrong assumptions and not doing it at the right time. Timing....is EVERYTHING!!! That's your fault if your timing and the way you're doing it that is not working....not the pushing itself. Unless you know for sure....I'd not do it at all because this will only backfire when you do any of these things I just mentioned. You have to really know for sure and be right every time if this is to work because you won't get any help or answers from the person in denial. You already know what happens when you are not doing this well or correctly don't you? Nothing.... OR ...raging tantrums....that's your only indicator and it doesn't leave you much to go off of....I fully get that part!!! lol
The problem for someone like yourself who is a pleaser by nature is....pushing in the first place is not comfortable and you are out of your element plus....it doesn't serve your strengths in this area and is actually working against it to be this way. You aren't going to get a lot of positive feedback or validation for doing it which is part of why you want to please in the first place. There is very little reward or thanks for being the bad guy even if it's done with the best interest of the other person in mind. It's thankless and combative and it takes a lot of force and energy to push someone who is fighting against you even when you know it's the right thing to do. It takes a strong will and an ability to take a lot of hits and still maintain your own self esteem in the face of the retaliation you will undoubtedly experience from that person and then keep on doing it until they see the light....hopefully? It is exhausting to do on your end I know....but growing up with an entire family who lived in denial and the consequences of that on all levels is so reprehensible to me now that I know this......I won't stand for it and I won't allow it in my life any more.
Not having to live with a person in denial is worth every penny of the price of admission I have to pay to make this happen and I know from my own experience....that living this way is pure torture for the person in denial..... and the one time pain of busting that door in and knocking it off it's hinges and then passing through it is nothing in comparison to living this way for the rest of your life. It can and will get so much better but the only way to know that is to "jump and fall" into the water by letting go of all that control and just allowing yourself to fall. The energy and control a person in denial must exert just to maintain the denial itself is staggering and it's such a waste of life and energy to have to keep on doing it and to keep up pretenses. It's such a relief when you let go of that control and it simplifies your life in an extremely positive way.......and life is sooooooo much easier when you don't have all that fear and anxiety any more. whew!! what a relief!!!!
But that's still not the reason not to push. It's not knowing how or doing it right is the only failure in this case. It's just not going to get you anything in the short run but flack and defensiveness from the other person....but in the long run ..the pay off is not having to deal with a person in denial any more and everything positive thing that you will get is totally worth it....ie: a calmer, less emotional and more rational person. Check all the above for me:)
So base on everything I said....is this what you were talking about or were you saying this from a different context or trying to apply this to something else?.....if so, you could help by explaining what I am missing here? If not....that's Okay too.....I just want to make sure I'm not missing anything here and I'm certainly not trying to be contrary or adversarial ....just trying to understand from the other side of this by comparing how I see it and what the differences are so I can see those too (as I tend to do anyway! ha ) lol
J
What I am seeing in your post
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
J,
More or less what I read in your post is the "Step by Step guide How to (insert any project here) - even Write a Book.
I experience the same sort of thing when it comes to debate or standing up to what I believe is an authority figure - basically anyone who I deemed was wiser than me. . Image it is like having all the note cards of my beliefs, lined up like a deck of cards, and spread out in a perfect fan in my hand. Then, someone comes along and flings a nasty insult at me, or challenges/digs at my ideas in a a mean way. Now imagine all those cards flying into the air, slowly drifting all over the room. And Liz is standing there, feeling foolish, with her index finger pointed horizontally level with her lips, humming and rapidly moving her finger up and down across my lips. BLBLBLBLBLBLBLBLBLBLBLBL. Got that?! .
So Indeed I think I grasp what you were trying to say.
I think I experience this sort of thing with my own spouse. He has all that information lined up in his brain - and does not know how to delegate any of it, as then the order gets all messed up. And then he gets overwhelmed. And frustrated. . . .and it appears he is angry. And from the outside it appears he will never let anyone help him. Granted there are other aspects that add to this situation - his standards are perfection, and he needs to micro mange. It feels defeating to do something, and have someone else come along and redo it. that can also work in the opposite direction. I have a vision of something I want, I explain it - and he will insist it is better his way.
I have a bad habit of trying to interject a comment into a phone conversation my spouse is having. LOL, I really get ticked when someone does that to me - I need to excuse myself for a second from the person I am speak with - write down the info someone wants me to relay - then join back into my phone call and share the information.
This response has not really touched the "Now-Not Now". that will follow.
Wow, you covered a lot of material in your response!!!
Still reading and percolating on your comment,
Liz
Click on Melissa's blog tab, then go to the last page
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
The Importance of "Now and Not Now" in ADHD Marriages
Submitted by MelissaOrlov on Thu, 07/26/2007 - 11:14
Still percolating,
Liz
Liz....You've Tweeked My Brain Here...
Submitted by kellyj on
in this case, it's a good thing. I as I do....it searches for an answer and I think I can speak to this. An answer is not what is needed since there really can be no resolution or answer to this but....I have wrestled with this one most of my life without even knowing it. At least I can tell you why? Taking OW's advise here....I'll move this to a new thread because this is drifting a bit into the obscure.
I strongly feel this is related to this thread and anger and tantrums since this is at the root or source of the anger that you experience and why it becomes so intense and met with so much resistance and denial. But as you responded and as I read the blog post you suggested....it suddenly occurred to me why this is so difficult and confusing on both sides of this issue. The "Now...Not Now" is related but not directly as you might think. It took me a moment to realize exactly why that is??
Going deeper and another layer underneath these things....I had an epiphany or sorts....in a possible way to explain or shine a light of this that might make a lot more sense to both sides of having ADHD and not having ADHD and what seems to missing in between??? Somewhere? Is it denial or something else? Possibly...a bit of both. The something else is where I'm going with this.
Denial, anger and raging tantrums come from frustration in the beginning. The inability to relate or communicate needs along with a host of other symptoms ie" flooding, irrationality and misinterpretation are also symptoms of this on a fundamental level.
Your description of yourself standing there with file cards lying on the floor having the inability to say anything but blub, blub, blub..... and feeling overwhelmed and not knowing what to say when your H hits you with (what sounds like flooding) is all very familiar to me from my point of view. That is....as the flooder! lol If you look at the explanation to this phenomenon in the blog posts.....you'll see it is from being hit repeatedly with that "deja vou" feeling that "we've had this conversation before haven't we? Now here we are....having it again and I already thought we came to some kind of understanding about this yet.....that conversation seems to have been forgotten?" Thinking silently to myself here in these moments " I know....must be they just didn't understand me the first, second, third, fourth...etc..... Lets try this again but this time with more information and a better explanation? Yeah ...that's it, that's all they need ....THIS TIME" lol. Right. I get it...but it still doesn't explain it?
Of course....I'm being factious.....but not in the past when I did this repeatedly. In that respect.....I'm still doing a version of it now but trying to do it differently. I'm learning....and get closer to seeing what is possible and what is not. Believing something that isn't possible...IS possible....and continuing to believe it for the sake of argument is ignorant if that is what you are doing. In respect to doing this now.....I am searching for all the reasons why it isn't possible and finding my resolution that way. I have found that this actually works! lol
It's hard to prove a negative in fact...it's simply is not possible unless it's a theoretical mathematical equation. Most people don't relate well with these kinds of explanations unless your a Mathematician yourself....that is... if that is how you are trying to convince them or trying to prove yourself otherwise! lol Guilty as charged but changing my ways:)
I'm moving this over to a new thread at this time only saying.....I think this is very much tied to the anger you experience having ADHD and the thing that is seemingly missing in the explanation as to.....Why?
J
I know....So Confusing...Me Too ha!
Submitted by kellyj on
Saying this yet a different way. When I hyper focus....time stands still. Does it really stand still or stops? Of course not....but I can look down at the time....go into hyper focus....and an hour seemed like 5 minutes. I'm sure you've had that experience at some point in time when you were really enjoying yourself and time just seemed to fly by? Me too. But that's close but still a little different. When I hyper focus....my internal time keeping gets disconnected completely. My gage or the ability to judge how much time has elapsed completely goes off line.....unbeknownst to me???
So in that regard.....time stood still but really....my ability to judge time completely goes haywire and I can't really judge very accurately how much time went by.
However.....all the rest of the time.....I can judge time just fine. You could ask me to tell you how much time elapsed or say...tell me when 10 minutes has gone by and I can do this extremely well.....sometimes almost to the minute.
But not when I go into hyper focus....that's the catch. In this case....that ability disappears and then reappears when I'm not hyper focusing. Visible....invisible. Consistent....inconsistent.
So....can I judge time well. Yes...with the ADHD qualifier....unless I go into hyper focus. Can I prevent myself from going into hyper focus if I have to and keep my time regulator on line. Yes....if I have to. But not all day every day all the time. At some point...I will relaxe and let my guard down and that's when I might lose my ability to do this. Do I trust myself if my life depended on it to make sure I don't slip. Yes. If my life depended on it.
Do I trust myself not to do this on a normal day when there's just everyday things going on and it's not life dependent. No. lol But I still can control it to a certain degree and that how I do it. Literally....I tell myself....."self....I don't trust you right at this very moment....I better set a timer or have some way to remind me or I will screw up. I expect it" ha ha
You may laugh at this...but in the summer months when it's light longer in the day....I do better than in the winter? Why? I use the sun to tell me what time it is approximately. I've found I do this naturally without having to think about it....just like a bird. lol What ever works right?
Apply this to seeing things on the floor or missing things like this in a physical sense....and it's the same thing. Here one minute....gone the next. It seems....hyper focus (or laser focus ) stops my ability to judge time and puts blinders on me when it comes to anything else. But only when I'm in hyper focus (or laser focus mode)
The rest of the time.....I'm pretty much like anyone else.....that is....most of the time? That's what's so frustrating or difficult to explain. Can I do it...or can''t I??
The answer is.....yes and yes and not perfectly except when I have to....most of the time if my life doesn't depend on it...and perfectly all of the time if my life does!! But horribly when I'm not paying attention. Check...all the above.
Confusing?? Me too?? lol
J
The only thing that works for me is.....
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
The only thing that works for me (in the long run) is leaving for several hours or even a few days. As soon as H begins one of his irrational rants, I leave. I keep some necessities in my car (change of clothes, jacket, toiletries, etc) and when he's making no sense and won't shut up, I leave. Usually, he's been drinking or over-medicating himself, so he'll finally fall asleep and I'll either come back or at least come back just long enough to feed the pets and leave again while he's still sleeping.
H hates it when I leave even though he'll often say things like, "good, get out of here. I don't want you here." But, really, he's like a two year old who says he hates mommy. So, after doing this many, many, many times, H now has fewer outbursts. Read about "extinction bursts".
Funny Thing OW
Submitted by kellyj on
When I got divorced after 12 years of marriage....I was pretty disillusioned about the whole concept of living with anyone right at first and decided to take some time off and work on myself. I didn't even go on a date for almost 4 years and pretty much lived alone mostly in solitude for the better part of that time. At first....this was GREAT!! No one to bug me, nag me or have to deal with but myself. I didn't have to pick up after myself or do anything I didn't want......all my dreams had come true in that respect....or at least.... for a little while. It didn't take long before I realized just how hard I was to live with simply by having to live with myself. No one to blame and no one to defer responsibility too makes it pretty hard to be in denial of certain things and those are the things that jump right out and become really easy to see!! CLEARLY!!
Another good case in point.....my next door neighbor. They have lived next door for many years and I know them now quite well. One day....I noticed my neighbors wife seemed to AWOL? When I asked him....he said he she had moved out because of his drinking. He had just been arrested for the 3 time for drunken driving which he said he had blown a 2.0 on the breathalyzer.
I said "wow...how much do you have to drink to get to that point?"
He said " a pint of Tequila in an hour."
I said "Holy Shit man.....that'll do it"
He said.."Yeah...XXXXX moved out (and in with a friend down the road) and said she won't move back in until I go through the program and quit drinking. That was the last straw"
I have to give both of them a lot of credit. His wife held to it and didn't move back in for almost a year until he could show her that he had his drinking problem under control. That time alone to think about these things forced him to make a choice and stick to it. In all respects.....this served to work for them. That was over 10 years ago and they are still together and his drinking has yet to be a problem again even though he has not completely quit yet....the fights and his drunken anger outbursts appear not to be happening anymore by all accounts. In respect to her and what she wanted.....this was it along with being arrested for drinking and driving in the future (or killing himself or someone else in the process).
J
31 years
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
Oh, Honeyblonde, you are singing my song! I could copy and paste almost your entire post and say, "Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes."
Alas, I have not found the answer. I desire a balance of accommodating AND feeling accommodated.
Where I sit, it FEELS as if my marriage worked when I was broken and my spouse was the fixer. In those early years of my marriage, I just couldn't wait 'to catch up to my spouse's emotional well-being' so we could ride off into the sunset together. Even with the issues I had, I lived in a nice apartment, had a full time job in an accounting department, had good wages, benefits, and a brand new car.
I got to the place of emotional well-being, about 20 years ago - and then spent 15 years trying to convince my spouse I no longer needed - nor wanted - to be fixed.
I do not want to try to figure out - or accommodate - or be patient - or overlook. I FEEL as though our relationship worked because I was the focus of 'problems', and thus my spouse was able to overlook anything he had to work on and focus on Liz's problems - - - - where all the issues were.
I DO NOT regret him riding in one his white horse and rescuing me. I do not regret marrying him. We have two wonderful adult children.
I GREATLY REGRET modeling for my daughter my accommodating/keep Daddy happy/give in my dreams/put my spouse first ALWAYS. It was so out of balance. No, my spouse was not bad. The relationship patterns we developed were not very good. We had no clue ADHD had any impact on us. US.
And, I just am not sure I can re-negotiate it into anything better. I can hope. My 'want-to.' has been depleted to a mere trickle. No, I am not being mean in not attending the couple's sessions. It is another things, in a long lne of try this, this will be the answer, try this, try that. . . . . . . . . . I really do need to feel as it is about US. I still feel it is about showing Liz how unforgiving/harsh/mean/controlling/ridgid/unbending she is. That just won't work. Not after all these different attempts to try to make it better.
I really AM NOT wiser than professionals. This is also not my first rodeo. I have been at this a LONG LONG time. I have lived with a man whom I love and care about. . . and have invested my life's blood into doing everything I can to be what I should be. I do not want to assign blame. I want to discover answers.
Yes indeed it is not gonna be easy to move me from my stance of resolution - it is not being un-educated about ADHD, nor selfish, nor narrow minded - it is being firm in my resolve. Finally.
I want to be involved in 'relationship work' when my spouse is open to dealing with problems. His defensiveness currently gets in the way. I hate that for both of us - and yes, I hate it more for me. Life will not ever be trouble free. No I do not want to overlook everything. It has gotten me to the point of wanting to scream and pull my hair out when I NEED to deal with an issue, and we cannot get near it - smoke and mirrors and defensive stuff get in the way. I do want and need an apology or acknowledgement that I felt forgotten. Yes indeed it IS wonderful all the great things that my spouse has done. The discussion I want to have has nothing to do with those things. 100 nice tings do not excuse hurtful things. Or Oopses. Or mistakes. And NO, poor behavior is not excusable just because you do not purposely intend to hurt someone.
Very Truly,
Liz
HOPE IS FADING - DECEPTION RULES THE DAY
Submitted by stonewalled on
Liz,
You sounded very much like me. I have been in a 31 year marriage and it has been largely a one way street. I am not a feminine man, but I am the one who has a home based business and has taken care of our home, our 4 dogs, all the shopping, all the cooking, and so much I cannot account for it is no longer funny. Now my wife has left me before Christmas only to let me know she is ok and we will have to learn to be friends again before we can be together again. She left one morning when I said the dogs should not have to cower due to negativity so I took them for a ride around the block only to come home and have no wife since Dec. 22nd.
She said she was told "I had to find myself" and if I was painting the house, the colors and such should not be something I consult her on, but it should make me feel good. That does not sound like she ever plans to return, so my hope is also dwindling to a trickle.
I have done nothing but love her for all these years but had zero idea that smart phones and social media in older folks that may have had undiagnosed ADHD as a child, would get triggered by these new things in our world. We argued one day a weekend except for a 3 month period of peace somehow she was able to muster last year. It seemed it was always about why she did not understand how treating people she worked with and outside our home well, only to treat me as a caretaker was frustrating.
I learned that the question "why" turned into hours and hours of discussion. I have been told by a Therapist that she likely has more than just ADHD, but to hit in our 60's was a shock to my system.
Loving her, marrying her, caring for her all I too do not regret. I am glad we did not have children that might have been influenced by the keep one partner happy at the expense of oneself.
Our dogs did feel the negativity of the body language and arguing, so that was very hard to manage. Now I find myself with more promises that we are ok and she still loves me, but we need to become friends again before we can see each other. How does a person married for that long have to become friends when you cannot even communicate. It is all one sided and I am left so alone.
Thank you for your post. I feel we have a lot in common and it is not the good stuff. You seem to be further along than I am. I am seeing my Therapist who already told me that empathy and caring for the spouse of an ADHD'r is not often found. I am in the midst of a cancer scare after losing nearly 70 lbs. in the past year and having seen 5 specialist that have found nothing so far.
I am losing my voice and was told that a person with Adult ADD might be afraid of taking care of an aging spouse when they are in perfect health. That makes me crazy as I was there for her cancer surgeries and several other illnesses besides driving to the assisted living facility to care for her parents when they were alive. It seems like I do all the caring and when I am in need I am left in the cold. All of our friends do not know our home phone any longer because I found she has them all phoning her at work or on her cell phone, so we no longer have mutual friends, they are all in her phone or on social media where I found a guy "poking her" 22 times while she asked me to fix her phone. I was shocked and told her she does not know who is messaging her, but it is not safe.
Another argument about my concerns for what can happen on social media. UGH! All I wanted to do is love her and retire happy. Golden years seem to be not what they appeared when I grew up. The 50's and 60's were times that this stuff did not seem to be prevalent.
Sorry for the length. Thanks for posting. You touch more people here that often intended for which I am grateful.
Lonely and one day at a time.
JM
Yeah...I Get It..Back to No Win
Submitted by kellyj on
The thing I was saying that what he see's in you is in reality....just the opposite for him. This is true in respect to how we see things sometimes. Meaning.....if you could see what we see then you would agree too....as well as the 99.9% of everyone else. I get that and understand it....it doesn't mean I see what you see either.
That's the point I was really trying to make. He's not wrong....but neither are you. That's his only mistake here...that is....trying to convince you that your wrong. This is the trap I fall into myself with my wife. As hard as I try not to be adversarial and take an opposing position with her....it's impossible it seems for her to be objective and see both sides.....to the point.....it really is oppositional and defiant and simply taking the opposing side of things no matter how irrelevant or relevant it is just to do it....seemingly, for no other reason?
I have read up on this part and even just recently....revisited it again. It's a pretty common co-existing feature for kids with ADHD to be ODD as well. I put myself into that category myself but here's the kicker. Mostly....these things subside by the time you get older. As I understand it.....ODD specifically is considered a childhood disorder but it can become or turn into conduct disorder and the like when you get older and are an Adult. I did dance the line on this when I was a teenager and into my early twenties but never really crossed that line and had any really problems with this in a clinical sense. That pretty much disappeared not very long after that.
Having said that....having a short fuse and quick to anger, chronically angry (at the world) with frequent outbursts for no real apparent reason, feeling persecuted and like you are a victim, highly defensive and argumentative, ignoring requests by others, low tolerance to frustration and purposefully doing things that piss others off or to get under their skin are all symptoms of ODD in childhood.
Without taking this much further....I can see the signs of these things in me except for.....the short fuse and low tolerance to frustration, chronically angry and frequent out burts. I see the direct connection with just these symptoms and why I might not have the short fuse portion of it. Why? I'm not sure.....but I can tolerate a lot and am usually pretty patient. I don't get impatient with waiting in lines or in traffic etc.....And I don't get angry when I'm on the road and people cut me off for example. Like almost never.
Having said that....if things are really bad and I am not dealing well with things including being tired, stressed out and feeling not in control.....these symptoms can and do emerge under those circumstance but not in general and not chronically unless the situation persists for very long. Even then....I can usually talk myself down after a while anyway but......the intensity of my anger will definitely go up when I feel someone is trying to mess with me for no better reason than just to do it for sport or pleasure to get a rise out of me or try and make me react. That one is hard to take and I have trouble remaining calm when I feel like someone is trying to do this with me.
Didn't you say a while ago that your H goes(works) none stop and never seems to take a break and relax? This self imposed pushing yourself to the limits will result in burn out and chronic irritability. Something to consider? That in itself can look like ODD but it has more to do with pushing yourself to the breaking point and then staying there too long. I've been there too and your tolerance for anything gets in short supply along with your ability to control you emotions and irritability. Even my fuse gets short when I have found myself in that situation but....it goes away immediately once I get some rest and recover.
Anyway....regardless of what caused it....it sounds like there is no approaching him while he is like this. I do know how frustrating that is. Everything bothers them and nothing you do seem not to. That would be a case to blame everyone if everyone causes this reaction in you? Also part of my issue with my wife. My ADHD symptoms may cause these reactions to increase or multiply for her......but I have watched how she is pretty consistent in doing the same things with other people or when we are confronted by situations outside the home that cause the same thing I see with me but.....now with other people too.
It's kind of hard to accept this is all about me and my ADHD symptoms included when....you see her this way all the time regardless if it's me or someone else. It's not like she is never not this way and it seems she is like this chronically. It gets triggered by seemingly anything she takes offense to and she takes offense EASILY!! Touchy or prickly would be another way to word it. I kind of have to call bullshit on that when she aims that at me and says it's because of the things that I do.
If you're going to get on a soup box and preach the Gosple to everyone else.....you better have your shit together and be damn near perfect yourself unless you risk looking hypocritical and consequently, lose all credibility....know what I mean? I hear you.....it is a no win situation when you are up against someone who is that self rightous.
J
The 99.9% sky is blue vs orange argument.......
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
I used to hear that sort of argument all the time. H would often say things like: "99% of therapists (or people) would agree with me." When one of his arguments was completely crazy. He'd desperately want to believe that "his view" was right and that my view was not just wrong, but very wrong. So, I insisted that we take some his beliefs to the people. Let them give their view....therapists, etc. Let other people see his crazy reactions and give their view of whether his way/beliefs were right.
I don't remember what your situation is. I don't remember if you have the means to "get away" for at least some time. Or if you have the means to let a fair 3rd party witness any of his wrong behaviors.
My H used to say that I "turned our kids against him" because they preferred to be around me. But then I pointed out that our pets prefer being around me because he scares them, he couldn't argue with me on that obvious point. When H would start raging, the pets would start barking at him, never at me. So his argument that I yell at him just as much was so obviously wrong. In fact, I rarely ever raise my voice to him. RARELY.
The fact that he thinks that you believe that the sky is orange when everyone knows it's blue is just more proof how not self-aware he is. In fact, he's delusional. My H can be extremely delusional, but more often when he's either been drinking (even if now sober) or if he's been mismanaging meds. I don't know if your H does either.
One thing that I've noticed a LOT now, is that even if H drinks one night and the next day he's "sober" (blood alcohol-wise), his mind is still affected by alcohol. For so long, I didn't realize that. Because my H kept his drinking problem a secret from me by mostly drinking when I was asleep at night, I didn't realize that the increase in his irrational behavior and beliefs were the result of alcohol. The following mornings were often crazy and irrational (and he'd have sobered up by then), so I had no idea that he had been drinking AND that this crazy behavior and thinking was really being made worse by the after-effects of drinking or misusing meds.
Now that he drinks far more infrequently and lesser amounts, when he does act or believe something irrational, I can almost 100% tell that he's been secretly drinking or mismanaging meds. The only exceptions is when he's had a particularly anxious series of events in one day.
Accountability and Shame Honeyblonde
Submitted by kellyj on
I'm also responding and chiming in here to jlhrva because I too recognize this scenario. And I too....feel the same as you two about this and am not sure exactly WHAT to do at times? I do believe one thing however....that self esteem and shame are the underlying reasons causing this behavior aside from the angry outbursts and the intensity of the anger. I do believe that there is an ADHD component to the anger (the overt reaction) that really IS tied to the ADHD. This I will easily admit to you or anyone else that I struggle with in controlling it in the moment but......how and when I get angry and the reasons that cause it appear to be coming from the same source as many of you here and the reason why?
Let me try to explain this with some examples...
Everyone gets angry at different times for different reasons. I think most people will react to something that is overtly disrespectful or hurtful and will express it in different ways and at different times depending on circumstances and who you are with. For example using myself here. I rarely if almost never show my anger and keep that under wraps in most public situations. It's not even hard for me to do this. I don't go off on strangers, store clerks, road rage and honk or yell at people while driving, yell at people on the phone who annoy me like when you call for help with a product you bought and get one of those off shore customer service people who just keep repeating back everything you say when you ask them a direct question and seemingly refuse to answer it (one of my big pet peeves which makes me boil). In every respect....I could justify my anger in some way due to something that someone did who seemed not to be caring or paying attention or appearing like they are simply trying to be difficult even when in fact....they are in this case. These things make me angry but I almost never react and can keep my cool under fire without a problem. My ability to tolerate frustration and a certain amount of disrespect in general in pretty high in most situations you can think of.
But......when I reach the end of my rope with someone for what ever reason and do react with anger.....it is likely to come out in a big way (bigger and louder than average) This is another way of saying....that I'm not volatile and I have a pretty long fuse all things considered. It also pointing out the fact that the big and loud part IS tied to my ADHD. Both of these things are true.....the matter of degree of the reaction is definitely part of this ADHD emotional liability or an inability to control it when it gets to that point and I fully admit that this part is a problem for me and I have to really be paying attention to it. I also don't have any problem admitting this or apologizing for it and then letting that stand. This is one of my weaknesses....my ability or inability to control my anger and not let it get past a certain point.
But when you are a victim......ANY anger is shaming and cannot be tolerated.
Having said that.....I can now join you two in the rest of everything you just said.....the walking on eggs shells again to put it succinctly.
I can sum this up pretty quickly in the problems I face with my wife and what I see as her refusal or an inability on my wife"s part to do.....
-admit fault or quilt for anything on her part
-apologies come few and far between and when they do....they are vague and non specific. Asking her to be specific or trying to make her accountable for her own anger and actions will only result in retaliation and defense on some level every time.
-refusal to admit any wrong doing or accepting any part or responsibility for her anger, volatility and any behavior on her part that contributed to my anger is met with absolute resistance. To do so would require a "hit" to her shame and self esteem and she can't afford to do that under no circumstances. Her self esteem is tenuous at best.....like teetering on the brink of the cliff and just holding on for dear life. She blames everything she can on things outside herself instead of being able to admit to herself that it's her own insecurity and low self esteem that is a the root or cause of these defensive maneuvers ie" manipulation (blame shifting), twisting words and embellishing (projection, gas lighting and deflecting and re-directing reasonability and accountability) and her victim mentality on all levels which is this entrenched pattern and how she sees the world. Someone....is always doing something 'to me".....including me of course.
-gets upset with comparisons of any kind. Always assuming that you are trying to compare yourself or anyone else to her in a judgmental way even when you are not. Basically....accuses you of doing things you are not doing and when you try and say "no....that's not what I was doing"...insists that you were and refuses to listen to anything outside of that no matter how hard you try. Trying to do this or get her to change how she feels about this will only result in more anger and defense.
-reads things into mine or other peoples intentions....as if they are up to no good and there must be some kind of conspiracy like thinking in terms that everyone is out to get you and you can't trust anyone. People and their intentions are mostly misinterpreted to mean something personal when most of the time....no one is really thinking anything but about themselves and what they are doing and are just not paying attention to you (or her in this case) In reality....no one really gives a rip in these things and it's almost never about her or what she is thinking it's about. Almost completely and inaccurately reading what other people are doing and applying herself to them and what she might be thinking.
-feels that someone who is confident or self assured is self absorbed and conceited
-feels that someone who is not paying attention to her and her needs at all times is rude and disrespectful if they inadvertently or even accidently do something that crosses one of her many unforeseen boundaries and then accuses them of being rude and uncaring. There are no mistakes or errors on anyones else part...or.....meets others failings with her with harsh criticizing and anger....as it everyone should know these things already and we are all the same in every respect. Part of her not wanting to be compared to other people she explains that.....she doesn't like to think of herself and not being "special". That's the rationalization at least when it comes out in the moment. Not feeling "special" is a huge part of this. Again.....all to do with low self worth and low self esteem.
side note: It's important to say this after the last comment. My ADHD and the effect this has on her contributes heavily to the intensity and this overall feeling but.....it order to distinguish what I am saying......I have to point out that she is like this anyway not just with me but across the board...my ADHD only exacerbates this pre-existing condition...it is not the cause. Again ....low self worth to begin with in all respects.
-conversely.......a need to put other down or bring them down to her level. She feels lower to start with but instead of bring herself up.....she consistently try to bring others down by tearing them down and chipping away at their own self confidence. In a nut shell....this is her MO and her defense against her own lack of self confidence and low self worth. This is the abusive component to all of this ie: a need to compensate for how much she hates herself at times...by hating others who are not like this and have healthy self esteem. Envy or jealously for sure! It shows like a Neon sign.
How she does this is by attacking others at their weakest points and then turns around and accuses others of doing the very same thing with her. It's like the theory of homophobes secretly having homosexual desires and tendencies which manifest in a hatred towards gays. I see this very clearly even if she does not.
At this point.....enter me into the picture. This is the behavior that I will not stand for and when I react in anger. I have strong feelings about those who bully and then accuse you of being one yourself. I also have very strong feelings about those who pick out peoples weakest and most vulnerable things to attack and use that against them to justify their own behaviors. I also have very strong feelings about those who I might consider cowardly and will not stand up and be accountable for their actions and admit when they are wrong out of their own weakness and insecurity by trying to turn that around onto me. I'm a really easy target as they say....my ADHD symptoms make it very easy to do this. My self esteem is not in the toilet and it's easy for me to make these distinctions and know when someone is doing this. Before I was diagnosed.....I played the victim many times but victim mentality was never my default way of thinking.
Now.....it's just annoying....but it still doesn't make me angry or cause me to be volatile even when someone uses these methods with me....that is, unless they keep violating my personal space and keep doing it after I have asked them not too. This baiting me into an argument just to excuse you or being the one who has an anger problem especially when they know that you have difficulty controlling it is a totally chicken shit in my way of thinking (IMHO) Even when I know that it is coming from an insecure place which is a weakness in them.....it still doesn't resolve the fact that I have to put up with this nonsense and keep having to fight them off in their attempts to trying and bring me down to their level.
From a male perspective at least.....this shit doesn't fly (man to man). But this is also not gender specific in the least. I have to remind myself of this all the time.
A case in point......
As the foreman of the shop where I worked.....a gentleman was hired to come in and fill the space that was left by the last employee who worked for me. When I interviewed him he said he was a master at doing what he did. Once hired.....I quickly found out that he was embellishing and had a rather high opinion of his own abilities however....he imediately started falling short on these claims that he had made about himself. But when confronted with these seemingly simple requests to adjust the quality of his work and change his techniques....he refused to listen and would always say it was something else instead. When I finally had to get firm with him and point out specifically what he was doing....he would either react with quick anger and then apologize and say "can we work this out?" (that's the bargaining stage of denial right there...very consistent with him) or.......he would look at you with a smirk and shun you for saying anything.
But what I found really fascinating about this guy and something that my T predicted to the letter when I was telling him how troubling this guy was......that each time you pointed out something that he had done wrong or any inability on his part to do what he was asked or was required......at first he would do nothing and just stew or sit there and not say anything. Not until a day or two later would he come to you out of the blue and respond back to you but it wouldn't be a direct response to anything he did.....only....what you did and why that he didn't feel your were right. Every time. Mostly it had to do with how you were not being nice to him and how he felt like he was being treated unfairly instead of responding to the thing that was actually the impetus to these moments in the first place. What you said and how you said it were always the focus of these moments never what the topic was about.
OR.....he would do some kind of passive aggressive "pay back" for saying anything in the first place as if he was offended by anyone pointing anything out to him that he did anything wrong.
Later...it became became clear to me that his talents an abilities to do the job were not what he said they were. As foreman....my job was to make sure that the quality and consistency of the work being put out was at the standard that my employer demanded as well as my responsibility for making sure that happened. In this case.....I had no personal relationship with this man other than to perform a job function and do what my job required me to do. Part of that as his superior....was to give him constructive critique and to teach him how to do things in a manner that was consistent with what my employer wanted. In this case....it was pretty cut and dried with very little grey area to debate about.
Yet.....this guy never got it. As time went on.....his tactics changed. This is the part that my T predicted to the letter. My T told me straight up..."I would watch my back with this guy.....he will try and sabotage you and turn all of this back onto you in some way. It may not be in the moment when you say these things to him....but later and not much later....he will come back and try and bring you down to his level since he can't come up to yours. You watch....it will happen.
Sure enough.....it happened exactly like this. The details are not important here. What is important is the pattern. It comes from extremely low self esteem, shame and a need to counteract these low feelings of self worth by turning it around and attributing the exact same thing that they are doing onto you.....the person who pointed out their failings and weakness. Exposing them or shaming them in front of others is the worst thing you can do. It is a form of covert Narcissism at the extreme level....but on a lessor one.....it is just low self esteem and a inability to tolerate being compared to anyone else that they see as highlighting their faults or weakness by covering them up or trying to hide them. If you point it out to them....your the one who is mean, rude and disrespectful just for doing it. How nicely you do it is irrelevant. Doing it at all is what they don't want you to do even though.....they will inevitably do something that will cause you some kind of problem and you will be forced to it at some time just to be in any kind of relationship with them on any level not just in an intimate personal level like we are talking about here on this forum. The pattern is consistent and unchanging regardless.
What to do about it still remains the question?? In respect to my wife for example....I am responsible for my anger and not controlling it well even if I have a good reason for it.....what I'm not responsible for is this pattern in her and her low self worth and shame that goes along with it. Those two things are responsible for this kind of behavior IMHO. Being with me despite my ADHD....did not create this problem she has that she has had probably most of her entire life hearing the stories of her past and putting these things together.
J
I think that I would tell him
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
I think that I would tell him:
All future apologies need to be in writing so that there's no misunderstanding of whether you've apologized....or not.
LOL...
Submitted by jlhrva on
Lol - seems reasonable! I have often thought of insisting on all communication in writing. But that would result in my having to read 6-page legal pad ramblings of all of the reasons that every conflict is really solely attributable to me, once broken down into all of its component parts.
Scandalon
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
Just adding thoughts to this thread.
Baiting. Well, for sure, I have been baited. How I look at any situation can determine where the problem lies.
As I read here, I realize what I have been choosing to do, at least for the past year - is to immediately search and try to discover "INTENT."
First, start with a People Pleaser. They smile at those who are treating them poorly, unconsciously stuff their anger so as not to 'lose a friend,' then when they get home they unleash that anger in a 'safe place.' For me, it was on myself - bulimia. For my spouse - it was me. Because I love him unconditionally. So I unconsciously taught him this was an OK pattern of behavior. My intent was not to cause myself physical harm. My spouses intent was not to hurt me. Yet, I did, and he did.
I can speak on this with clarity since I have done all of these things - yet not intentionally. It was self preservation. It was a "protect my inner most being" mode. In was an automatic response that my soul learned.
The intent of his 'baiting' was to release that pent up frustration - NOT to do Liz Harm. Same as bulimia released my own pent up frustrations.
I would be hurt and disappointed when my spouse was late, and he would unleash all the fury - that belonged elsewhere - on me, deny my feelings, and berate me for being so inconsiderate of how hard he worked, etc., etc., etc.
Well. . . . .all Liz can now do is be aware of the trap that is set - not with intent to hurt, but still waiting to hurt me - and NOT step into it. As a Christian, I clearly remember the day that line in the Lord's Prayer - Lead me not into temptation - clarified this exact situation for me: Liz must see the Bait/Trap/Temptation and NOT go into it. A scandalon is that plate in a trap where bait is placed. Hunters use traps it for life preservation. They trick an animal to step into it, so the hunter can have food to eat to survive.
In my own heart - ADHD or whatever fuels things - I know my spouses INTENT has never, not ever been to hurt me. I had been knowing that for a long time, and thus unconsciously dismissed his behaviors and took the hurt. Now, I know better. I hate to see my spouse hurt. While he can no longer easily bait me into assuming any of is own emotional issues, in my own humanness, I hate seeing him struggling with emotional pain.
So there is Liz's reality.
And for me to want to spend time to salvage our marriage, I need to see his intent to figure out his own stuff. It has been the usual mode of behavior to lie all blame at my feet - because Liz the Sin Eater would take it all. Now I will not. And he will need to work through his own stuff, take responsibility for his own stuff, and then, THEN we can try to work out stuff in our relationship.
So while I care for him, I MUST care for myself MORE. I gotta take care of Liz. I gotta be happy, and fulfill my life's calling. I truly believe he can work through this stuff. If we are to have a future together, he has to make that effort.
I am choosing to be loved, respected, needed, and wanted, simply because of what Liz has to offer.
It has been a very rough road to get here. It really is getting easier.
Very truly,
Liz
Well Done Liz
Submitted by kellyj on
I think you are absolutely right....there is no intention on a conscious level when someone baits you into and argument.....it is a form of self protection in itself. On a sub conscious level, you might say there is an intention behind it but without the awareness of the person doing it. If you look at the concept of self parenting I just posted in this thread......if a person is unable to process conflict internally, one might assume that they will try and do it externally with you. The sentence in the description at the end where it said..".Most of the time when they are in need to dealing with the forces of reality, they may place too much pressure on certain people.[1]"...I think that may be exactly what that was saying. Baiting into an argument is an attempt to pressure others into processing their internal need to resolve the conflict they are having with someone else specifically...the object or person they are in conflict with.
I know I'm a verbal processor. I also know that without awareness.....I will do this with other people without intention for this reason alone. I don't really need to do it out loud as a speak unless I haven't taken the time to think it through before hand. In reality.....I do the same thing by myself in my head without someone their....it's just easier to do it out loud with a sounding board present. Unfortunately.....people are not sounding boards unless they volunteer to do it. If not....they feel put upon and feel like their boundaries are being violated even if I am not aware of it which in my past.....I simply was not. Now I am..... but I still have to catch myself (in person) when I'm having a conversation with them. I've managed to do this fairly well and most of the time....it's no longer a problem because I am aware that I do it. Even so.....if I am not aware that I AM doing it in the moment.....I'll still do it anyway from time to time.
There is absolutely no intention on my part to violate others boundaries what so ever. I dislike myself when I do and I wish I could just snap my fingers and stop but that is not a realistic goal. Catching myself as often as I can IS. With practice....I've managed to catch myself most of the time and this has proven to be enough that it isn't be big deal for most people. However....there are still a hand full who's boundaries in this area are more sensitive than others. All I can do is apologize to these folks and hope for the their forgiveness.
I think you could apply "baiting" to everything I just said. The first step in correcting this problem is to become aware of it first. That's the hard part. Once they can see it too......I think most people with few exceptions would see this the same as you would and would do their best to stop doing it after that.
One tip here that I discovered with my wife when speaking with her concerning this topic of baiting. If I start by saying what my intention is first at the opening of my conversation.....it kind of makes it hard for her to bait me. I've also found that if I stop her occasionally and ask her what her intention is in saying something.....it tends to keep her honest in the conversation and makes her think about what she is saying and why. Sometimes......this only makes her more irritated but.....it does stop her from continuing. Make sense doesn't it?
J
I choose!
Submitted by honeyblonde on
I've feel like I've submerged myself in sorting through all of this ADHD symptoms and reactions, and what are my reactions and issues etc. I'm racking my brain asking can I do differently? What should i have done differently?
Today, I am done with reconsidering "my approach" or "my reactions" or my responsibilities... For now.
Im not taking one more insult. I'm not ignoring anymore disrespectful behavior. I'm not accepting any more gas lighting or misconstrued recollections of what I said, or what I meant, or what he meant or what i did (that I didn't really do). I'm so new at this, but I have been doing my homework. Perhaps, I just don't take it for another second. Maybe HIS behavior needs to change. Period. Why am I learning new ways of coping and reacting and ignoring and sitting quietly to accommodate HIM? Meanwhile taking the emotional "hit after hit"?
I committed to my partner, yes, but what about the commitment to myself? Is it ok, to put that on a back burner? Maybe the people suffering from ADHD can take responsibility for these additional hurtful symptoms of behavior.
Is it possible he chose me only because I allowed his behavior? Maybe because I am a people pleaser? Or maybe because I have been in these types of relationships before? Maybe because he saw the cracks in me, or the weaknesses and he was drawn to me?
I choose me. I'm not allowing anymore nonsense. Maybe that's what we should discuss? How to choose ourselves and stop making excuses for our partners.
I can now understand the messy, unorganized ways that are possibly uncontrollable at times. I can understand not thinking ahead and making mistakes etc. but I guess I'm just here, asking myself, why am I being so understanding about all the hurtful behavior? Why is it ok just because he had ADHD? He can learn to adjust. He can read article after article regarding his selfish behavior. He can make his therapy apps and make sure that he goes and has set back the funds to pay for it. He can make choices to love me respectfully, instead of me learning (and accepting) to be loved the only way he knows how... Which is basically to accept that my basic needs will not be met. I won't be able to trust him completely, or feel carefree about any general responsibilities because I can count on him.
If he can remember his own birthday, surely he can learn to remember mine. If he wanted too.
Why are we doing this? Is it really any different than being in any other unhealthy relationship? My guess is that many of us non ADHD'ers have had unhealthy past relationships.
For now, I'm just saying no. I'm choosing me, and I'm not accepting it. Part of me feels like the real issue is that no one has ever told him no before and he just never learned how to accept it.
No is Good Honeyblonde
Submitted by kellyj on
Also....being proactive yourself. Recognizing gaslighting, projection and any number of defense strategies is key for you to know when to say No. No means....not to engage. If you try and beat someone who does this with you at their own game....you will lose. Game is not a good word but you get the drift? It's all defense of some kind if you can see it for what it is. This will help so you don't get sucked in and not to be defensive. These defensive adaptive strategies are usually offensive in nature. The counter part to offense is defense. Don't do either and do something different. That's you best way around it and when I say around it....don't step into the ring.
No is good but knowing when to use it is also more effective than just saying no all the time. That's just defensive after a while. If you can stay objective as much as possible.....I think this will serve to protect your own emotions and also take the wind out of their sails:)
J
Recognizing Projection and "Coding"...Coming Back Here
Submitted by kellyj on
I wanted to come back here and say a few things in what I see in this thread. In keeping with my own words....my intention in making this comment is from an observational stand point to shine a light on something that seems pretty obvious to me but I have yet to find a way to address it. After some deliberate thought about this I think I can make an attempt to point out (shine a light on) something troubling to me both on a personal level and for everyone else here. The best way to this I think at this point is just to do what I always do....spread all the pieces out in front of me so (I and) everyone can see them too before I begin to talk about them.
In doing this I am saying up front....that my intention is NOT to single anyone out (or call anyone out) ...but merely to do what I just said. I'm saying this so not to offend anyone even if it there is something within what I'm thinking might be taken the wrong way. As this very thread is talking about....I have my fears here too:) The fear is only that my point or message will not be received in the way I am trying to present it from an objective critical position but there is another reason.
To whom am I really talking too? Rather.....WHAT am I talking too? This isn't one my many typos and missed words here in this sentence. WHAT...is precisely and accurately who I am talking about and the one who's doing the talking in my observation.
So here are the pieces that I am talking about....who said them is irrelevant to this discussion......
"We did not always have this issue, but after a lot of soul searching, this began following the loss of my entire family along with my wife getting a smart phone. " "We" didn't say this.....YOUR projection did. And merely to further making the same point.....smart phones don't do anything more than what they were designed to do. They are a passive "instrument" or "object" and have no power over you or another person in order to do what you just said. It is physically impossible for an inanimate object to do anything on it's own of this nature that you are talking about. Guns don't kill people unless a person pulls the trigger.
"I know I am a man and most abuse comes from men, but in my home we have a role reversal, not because she was the bread winner until this past year, but because I was not able to work 9-5 and therefore had to start a home business." With a great deal of compassion and sympathy for you and your situation (having been in a similar one myself in my past) and with all due respect to you and the suffering that this is causing you.....roles are NOT people either. Roles are merely "personas" that we fall into either by choice or design....but they are not how we identify each other unless.....you have become or adopted these roles as not being separate from who you really are as a person. The language these roles speak is pure projection in the purest form. That includes tone, body language and all other means verbal or non verbal in the way we communicate with another person.
The roles or the personas within these roles in other words....are the Projectors. Every word that comes from the projector is a projection. But these roles and personas we "play" literally....like some scripted stage production (the play itself) are all manufactured or created inside our heads. They can not come from anywhere else if you think about it....no one has that much power over you (external mind control) to supplant these thoughts into your mind and use them to control you? The ideas themselves did come from somewhere or were told or taught to us.....but we have to separate the roles we have as a individual or person "at times".... from the "characters" or "caricatures" and the personas that these "scripts" and projections come from. If a person cannot do this or is not doing this at the time we are speaking to them....they aren't hearing us.....they are hearing someone else instead.
We (as in everyone) create them to fit the play that we think we are in sometimes. In reality.....there never was any play either now or in the past. When we speak from this place rather from who we are as a person without them....we (all of us) can get lost and feel very alone without them if we have lost our identity of who we are as a person over time with only these roles and personas that actually are replacing who we are.....not merely defining us as a person. When we become these personas that fit the roles the everyone must take on for various reasons.....employee, employer, husband, wife, teacher, student,sinner, saint etc....we become and thing or object ourselves and take on these archetypal personalities instead of simply being a person without any label or means to determine who you are by any other means. When we can identify and not become emotionally invested them in unhealthy ways ( attached to these personas and roles we play in healthy ways like at work for example, but when quitting time comes.....you walk out the door and drop the role when it is no longer needed or viable anymore...
But do this in an unhealthy way....we lose perspective of who we really are inside and who we are as a person who is as individual and different as the next person. In essence....we lose ourselves and become lost without them. This can be anything from absolutely terrifying....to anxious, nervous and fearful. But the feeling of being alone and disconnected is certainly a symptom of this I think? I'm hoping this insight might serve you to examine it more closely to see if there is anything in what I just said that might help you find some answers and some peace within yourself?
"So, that's how many of us find ourselves in this situation. The "takers" know that most people will reject them. They have to find "givers." You didn't say this....your projection did. There is no "we" or "us" in the word "me" or "I".
"He Said he wanted to apologize for "what happened this morning", followed by 3 legal pad pages on why it was MY fault that this happened. Basically "I'm sorry you had an anxiety attack, but you wouldn't have had one if you hadn't...etc, etc" No, he didn't say that last line...."HE" said he wanted to apologize....his projection wrote you the three page legal document and the last sentence you wrote.
"First, start with a People Pleaser. They smile at those who are treating them poorly, unconsciously stuff their anger so as not to 'lose a friend,' then when they get home they unleash that anger in a 'safe place.' For me, it was on myself - bulimia. For my spouse - it was me. Because I love him unconditionally. So I unconsciously taught him this was an OK pattern of behavior. My intent was not to cause myself physical harm. My spouses intent was not to hurt me. Yet, I did, and he did. No YOU didn't....and No HE didn't. You're (the both of you) projections did.
Within these projections that everyone uses all the time....are what is called "coding"....
A language code is a code that assigns letters or numbers as identifiers or classifiers for languages. These codes may be used to organize library collections or presentations of data, to choose the correct localizations and translations in computing, and as a shorthand designation for longer forms of language-name.
Difficulties of classification
Language code schemes attempt to classify the complex world of human languages, dialects, and variants. Most schemes make some compromises between being general and being complete enough to support specific dialects.
For example, most people in Central America and South America speak Spanish. Spanish spoken in Mexico will be slightly different from Spanish spoken in Peru. Different regions of Mexico will have slightly different dialects and accents of Spanish. A language code scheme might group these all as "Spanish" for choosing a keyboard layout, most as "Spanish" for general usage, or separate each dialect to allow region-specific idioms.
When we speak not from our authentic selves (who we are) and start adopting "personas" instead.....these projections are now very difficult to classify and to understand or know just who we are talking to. If a person loses themselves within these roles and the persona's .....and then completely attaches themselves to these identities instead of just identifying "with them" instead of who we really are without them....it can get very confusing to talk to someone doing this to know just who is who doing the talking. Identifying with these personas or archetypes becomes replacing yourself with these "identities".......AKA.....also known as.
And if you have an insecure attachment issue yourself...and now attach that one to one of these so called "identities"...you will get a very anxious, fearful and angry person because the bond they have with their own identity is tenuous at best. This is the insecure person (or this insecure attachment to it) that is following you around, making accusation and becoming irate with you.....not the person themselves) It's this insecure persona or role that is trying to bond with you not the person themselves....and the bond itself is "weak" to begin with. That is "whom" you are having all the difficulties with.
The problem with this is....that you have a part to play in this with them. If you are projecting what the person you are with...is "suppose" to be.....and casting them into this "role".....your the one who's doing that part....not them. If they take your lead and try to follow you there and try and take on a role or persona that is not them or does not fit them......then the end result will be exactly what you have. If they were to say no...uh ah!! And not go there with you.....you would be left either upset or disgruntled that they weren't who you thought they were and either having to decide whether the person that they really are is suitable or not....and then say so.
But that's not what happens. You are accusing them of not being what you thought they "should be"....instead of accepting them for exactly who they are. And they in turn....instead of telling you this to your face directly.....their projections starts taking over and accusing you of doing the same thing with them and putting them into this position. One that they do not fit or is not who they are as a person....and they are doing this from a very tenuous and insecure place. Why? Because it's not who they are. They're compensating for this discrepancy the best they can and pretending to be what your projections are telling them to be and it doesn't fit. This is what is happening I do believe. If someone wants to confirm this or not.....I am open to interpretation:)
What I am describing here is attachment theory. By my understanding.....this is fundamentally how it works.
A different language? Yes....it is!!
So ...when I have mentioned these moments with other people saying " it feels like the person in front of you is talking to a different person instead of me. Like I want to look over my shoulder to see who's behind me?" THIS.... is exactly what I'm talking about.
And in the past ( and here on this forum even) when I was using a very old passive aggressive comment in retort to these moments and saying " who's this we? You have a turd in your pocket?"
This is also speaking to this very same thing. Exactly to the point of this very same thing. I use to use this with my Mom as a teenager out of my frustration over this. I use to say it as my default any time I felt like this was happening when we spoke which in the case of my own mother....happened ALL THE TIME!
In this example with my mother....her projection was the one talking to me....but I'm not me as she is saying it. I am a "specter"...or just an "image" of who my mother thought I "should be" and I....the person (me)....was speaking to the projector, not my mother. If that makes sense?
I get now....why this was not very effective in light of what I just said:) This "we" is the "projector"...."the persona"...."the role"....and the "projection." Not the person saying the words that we hear and the one standing right in front of you. The reason why we can't understand a person when they are like this is the coding used is a different one than we are using ourselves with them at the same time.
This is why it is so useful to understand and recognize projection. It isn't that difficult to do one you start to pay attention to it:)
J
PS To prove this point....close you eyes and pretend you have no children, no husband or wife,no parents and no friends or relatives, no job title or job and none of your past ever existed. You have no jewelry, no clothes, no car or house with an address where you live (or flat or apartment) and no other personal possessions that anyone can associate or identify you or categorize you in any way, shape or form. Now there is just you. Who are you without these things? If you have trouble answering that....it might be good to give this some thought?
Medications and approach
Submitted by Monkeygirl on
Dear Honeyblonde
I logged on today because I've had a pretty bad Christmas with my ADD spouse, but I realize that compared to you I've had it good. I guess my H is not as badly affected as yours. Anyhow, I have two things to say to you.
Firstly, my H is on Ritalin, and yes, it does make a difference. Now he is ADD, not ADHD, so it may work differently for your H, but what I know is that before he takes his medication in the morning he can't focus on a task, he can't concentrate on what I'm saying to him and gets frustrated and irritable. It is a question of nerve endings not meeting from what I understand, and the Ritalin can shoot across and make a connection.
And this connects to the other thing I wanted to say, namely that we HAVE to accept that people with ADD/ADHD are wired differently. I sometimes think of the times I come back late at night after a long journey, drop my bags and fall into bed. Am too exhausted to brush my teeth, perhaps I forgot to turn out the light in the kitchen, and there's something in my bag that should have been put in the fridge. Such slip-ups happen if I've spent hours and hours on buses and airplanes and haven't slept properly. To someone with add/adhd that is probably the general feeling on a normal day without medication, and then we come in and say "hey you forgot to..." and "please when you..." all the time. I don't know how to learn to live entirely happily and unchaotic with him, but it I do know that my marriage has improved over six years - of chaos and types of humiliation that my other friends would never accept from their well-mannered, well-groomed husbands. I get the feeling that things take a long time to sink in. If I present ideas to him without anger, he may not react on them straight away, but he does process them in his own time. It is a very hard balance between standing your ground and leaving enough mental space for him to sort things out in his mind. And I think his mental space blocks up if he feels harassed.
Without him taking medication, though, I couldn't have stood through this. That and a solid dose of humour.
Good luck to you!
MG
To respond to some of your thoughts...
Submitted by honeyblonde on
For one, I do need to just not engage, at all. I need to watch him fall without saying a word. He is an adult and he needs to learn on his own... Able or not. It seems no matter what I say, do, show, suggest or nag and no matter how many times I do it, he will not learn from me. Either because he refuses and opposes anything coming from me, or because he can't. If I put myself in his situation, then he is able to manipulate something to being my fault. If I've said and done nothing, I guess there's nothing for either of us to be confused about.
The he past few weeks I've said "no" and I've said no hard. I give it all right back at him hard and he couldn't take it, even for 5 minutes. I watched him squirm like his brain was short circuiting. Instead of him recognizing that this is how I have felt for hours and hours, going on days and days sometimes. Truth is, it did not work. I don't think he's capable of "putting himself in someone else's shoes"' so to speak. So my new no, is to not engage, per suggestion. He isn't listening anyway and if he hears anything, his instinct is to prove me wrong or do the opposite. ( which then just makes him more defensive and angry) I know that now.
I still feel hopeless. It's like he needs a life manager, but of course doesn't want to need one, so he is defiant, resentful, mean and frustrated. Not to mention, i thought I was getting a husband and a partner to enjoy the rest of my life. I'm just a great partner to him so he can enjoy the rest of his life, without concern for me or my happiness. I make sure he has everything he needs, and it doesn't occur to him to fulfill any of my needs, or that I have any.
Maybe the Meds will,help, but I don't think the Meds are going to help the major issues we have. I have to wait to see if he will get it. I can't make him get it.
So, for now, I'm choosing me by not being involved with him or his actions. I don't care what he does, or how he does it, not going to give him an opportunity to blame me. Basically, it's in his hands to either do it, or not. I'll wait as long as I can. Without progress I'll end it when the time is right. (With the exception of finances. The therapist did tell him to hand it over to me for now and he has agreed).
I type this with tears. What kind of marriage is this? When im better off to completely detach myself from my husband. Feels, and reads, like the definition of a divorce.
Honestly, I don't think he will do it on his own...
For Honeyblonde
Submitted by Monkeygirl on
Dear Honeyblonde
Well it does sound like your marriage is living hell, and I am sure that it will never be easy. So I can understand that right now you need to figure out whether you want to repair it at all.
Looking at his reactions, it sounds like a hard "no" has an effect on him, and that fits my experience. The few times I have gotten really really mad my H went into a state of light shock, I think it made him realize a few things.
The other thing that you can read from his reactions, obviously, is that he REALLY needs to be left alone. I stopped nagging and interfering quite so much at a point when I realized that it had no effect on him, other than making him sad which also wasn't helpful. Doing that actually helped.
I also accept that when he has some project, he needs to figure things out on his own, and there is no way we can sit down and make a plan together, because his mind works in really irrational ways. So if we are doing something together, I find out what he wants and expects, and then I present a plan to him that has elements of what he wants and what I want, and he is mostly quite happy with it. If he is doing something on his own, I let him make his own plan, and then I may ask him inoffensively if he has considered some alternative that would make it easier. Since I have stopped interfering, he has become able to take in my suggestions - previously, he would just freak out and start an argument that would be both cruel and pathetic at the same time.
You are looking at a person in a constant state of chaos and confusion; with medication and a combination of putting your foot down when it counts and leaving him to himself when it counts less you will be looking at a different person. So what I am saying is that I think you are right in making him fall on his own, but he may fall into a better place.
By letting him screw up on his own you also get your priorities back, to where you can engage in your own stuff rather than worrying about his all the time.
All the best
MG
Not Lost, but Found Healing Here
Submitted by stonewalled on
Dear MG,
I will not deny life has been extremely difficult, but much of it is my own lack of understanding on this disorder. I do not recall calling my life a "living hell." I am feeling more confident each day from the postings of c ur self, Architectt and jennalemone that have given positive thoughts. I am not seeking to blame, but rather to learn a new way to live from some who are more experienced at living with an ADD spouse can offer.
As said by another newby like me: "The issues lie in our communication, her ability to shutdown when angered/annoyed/frustrated, her lack of emotional awareness in general, her defensiveness and stubbornness." Architectt. He is saying what is clear we all seem to feel. The key to any recovery is mindset. My life is not a living hell and if I made that assertion I am sorry. I will look back to see if I did say that. It does not sound like me, but in the fog of frustration and anger we all can think or say things we later see is not part of our character.
My goal is to understand, learn a better way to love, learn to manage temperance and save my marriage not to live in chaos and distrust, but to live in love. Time will tell, but I feel strongly about saving my marriage. It is not all on the ADD'r, although it might seem we are alone in our pain. I am sure they are feeling the same pain, but different and we would not likely understand their thinking process of pain, but pain is pain in any form. They seem to live in a state of confusion and have difficulty with decision making while keeping positive.
I am learning that when I see the red light most often presented by me, I need to stop. At one time we could talk about things. That morphed into hours of discussions that I now understand were perpetuated by me. I know she loses her train of thought after the first few sentences, but that is only because of the kind folks here who talked about it so many times. I can talk until I make myself crazy and she is still dealing with the firs thing I said not realizing everything since then is not able to be processed.
It cannot happen because she does not have the resources, but I do. I am a strong man and stronger with my Faith that God is always working in our lives to teach us something. Granted, this problem has been right up their in difficulty with my sobriety that I embrace after 22 years, but giving up is not optional for me. I have survived too much to let another life's barrier get in the way of my marriage. I have too much love for her and will stick it out as long as she finds me worthy. Worthy does not mean I will become a stepping stone, but rather a rope line she can hold onto when confusion takes over. As long as I am aware of myself and her limitations things can get better. If things get 50% better that is a huge improvement. That is my 50% I am referring to. Since it takes two people to create any problem, so it can be helped by one of those people taking personal responsibility for trying to "fix her" by books and planners. I will stop trying to get her to see the problems and fix her. ( The Curse Of Manhood - Must Fix Everything)
I need to fix the way "I" interact with her. If I do not do that, then I am the problem. When I worked in the bacteriology lab I had to learn how to handle things that would make you sick and some that would kill you. If I have learned anything in life it is about working with the FLOW, not rowing against it.
My posting will not reflect how bad things are any longer. I have learned that this is not much different than alcoholism. One partner detaches, but in the bottle.
The path to a better life is using my God given ability to make change in myself that will not push buttons or triggers I did not formerly know existed. I have read 6 books on ADD and none of them have been as insightful as this forum from the people living with ADD.
I will move forward each day until I change me. That will help us with half the problem because I will know about the things that she cannot process and act accordingly. If I do that and Love her as promised in our Vows, I might get a blessing to have my Bride back. The rest of this is how much each of us are willing to do. I am committed and so far I see she is committed to change. I see how that does not change her brain chemistry, but it will give her tools. If she uses them or not, things can still get better by my understanding I create a lot of what frustrates me.
I can change me an my reactions. I can love her more and lift her up rather than engage in behaviors that take her down. I do not want to see her suffer in any way, mostly when I can do something to change it.
Just as in AA, I use God as my guide. If you have trouble with old time religion, in AA we say look to your higher power. Is it possible we are meaningless in this vast universe that was created by a being far greater than me? In my mind something created this universe and humanity. Creating a perfect human flies in the face of learning, thinking and evolutions. We all have flaws. I accepted that years ago and it changed into knowing God exists and lives in each of us in our goodness and love. Our minds are like individual universes. There are most neuro-snyapses in our brains than stars in the Galaxy or possibly the measurable Universe.
Not all brains evolved with every tool, but I am sure for each flaw there is a strength in that same person.
I wish you the best.
JM
For MJ
Submitted by Monkeygirl on
Dear MJ,
many thanks for your post - it is good to know that you have so much patience and love for your wife. Your response seems to be to a post that I wrote for Honeyblonde - whose marriage I said seemed like living hell. I have corrected the headline now so that it is clear that it was for her.
I wrote a response to your post elsewhere where I said it sounded like you needed a divorce, but I see now that that is not the right path for you at all. I hope you will find some new source of help and support now that your family is gone. It is a tough situation to go through alone.
Courage!
MG
Yes,
Submitted by honeyblonde on
I see my responsibility is to myself for now. I can't get sucked into any day or weekend long arguments...it's just fuel for his fire. I have read that his mind wants these fights/stimulation. The tantrums are due to the receptors/chemicals etc. It makes sense, because for many hours he can make no sense at all. Almost driving himself crazy. I do see it as a sickness when he's doing it, it's toxic for me as well. So as the saying goes, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results, I'm going to try something new and not correct. It's hard. It's very trying to not correct the stories he tells, or the misconstrued words he repeats, particularly when it's at my expense. It's just not ok, but I suppose this the part where I have to separate the man from the illness and not take it personally. Thicker skin and deaf ears.
I'm afraid that many years down the road, like many or you, I will have just gotten used to these behaviors and accept them. The thing is, they are not acceptable. It's not ok to shed an unfair light on me with our friends and family, so that he doesn't have to take responsibility. I don't think that should ever be acceptable. I don't think I should live as his thick skinned, deaf eared scapegoat for the remainder of my life. I also took my marriage vows very seriously, but I can't make him do the same. I don't even think he can't understand them or what it means to put them into practice. I'm realizing he's incapable of this. His impulse to self serve is too strong.
I thankful for this forum. It's so helpful to just share with a group that understands. Sometimes I just post my thoughts about my day. My frustrations and hopelessness. It's like an anonymous dirty laundry chute, that sometimes responds.
Im just going to work on getting myself back together. Gaining some control over my own actions and well being will surely make me feel less hopeless. Letting go of needing to control his actions. Is the only safe route. He will either help himself or he won't. I can't make him.
Stimulation
Submitted by Monkeygirl on
Wow I didn't know the theory about add/adhd'ers being stimulated by arguing, but then I haven't read any books either. The way I have been seeing it, if you spend a long time with a friend or relative who is constantly criticizing you, then you are also constantly seeking retribution and you are constantly prepared to defend yourself. And you spend a lot of energy on going over past discussions and imagining what you should have said. I think that sort of arguing is addictive to anyone - like when people get caught up in hateful discussions on social media. I think people with add/adhd get caught up in that stuff more easily than the rest of us because they feel nagged on and criticized all the time. .
My husband and I caught up after not having seen each other for many years. He had just come out of a relationship with someone who clearly was not cut out for someone with ADD, so they had fought a lot. At first he was extremely edgy and would fly into a rage over the strangest things. Once when I had said something casual that he misunderstood as a criticism he got aggressive, and said he could not understand why I would say something like that. I just looked at him and said "My dear, it is called making conversation". I could see how surprised he was that I wasn't hinting or being snide. It took him a while to get used to the idea of a relationship without constant fighting.
So I think that while arguing may be more addictive to someone with add/adhd, it is addictive to the rest of us too. And I think a person with add/adhd benefits from having relationships that do not stimulate that side. People that they can trust to be on their side, and people that they themselves do not want to argue with. But they have to get used to the idea.
Oh and no, it is not acceptable that you should take the blame for things that he has done, and especially not in front of friends and family. Even if they know you are not at fault, it is embarrassing to play the role of a wife who just sucks it all up.
Best
MG
Been There but I see with different glasses
Submitted by stonewalled on
Dear honeyblonde,
I am sorry you are feeling this so early in your marriage. I do not feel hope is lost for me, but just the opposite. You saying that you need to "not engage at all" is somewhat true. Then your statement about "watching him squirm while his brain short circuits" is very sad to me. I understand the frustration, the anger, the feeling alone, and all the emotions that have been discussed. I did not feel the need to "watch her squirm" ever. That is payback that I see falls on deaf ears, but does cause pain and resentment.
This is my wife who I love deeply. That is simply "unconditional." Hope is alive because in me is the desire to do whatever changes I need to make to positively modify my behavior and hopefully hers is our circumstance. When I found out my wife has chosen to get professional inpatient help, my hope is better because it will not just be a one way street totally.
Even if the changes are the same as others on this forum, I listen more than I talk, I do more without expectations, and simply love the spirit of the person I married I am fine with whatever gets us to peace and harmony. I know after 30 years of marriage she feels the same, but her disorder that has been magnified by things nobody could see coming. In my view that is no different from a sickness. I am not new to therapy and 12 step programs. It is all about each persons desire to change. Sometimes, it is not about desire, but it is simply they are not able. God gave my wife what she needs in me. The bright spirited person I married is still in there, but she had slowly used it to keep her job until retirement and keep her friends. I understand how stretched she is and how to best deal with it. Love her more and more, talk less and less, be strong for both of us.
The feeling to "get back at them is extremely strong" when faced with a person who refuses to even respond to a question. That anger can be huge, but retaliation would be very destructive. It is like forcing a person who is unable to pick up a 300 lb. weight and expect them to do it while watching them try. Much of the time asking them to "try" is not a word in their vocabulary. Why? Who knows. Who cares if the solutions are available to change ourselves. If that is not working for you, maybe more help might be in helful to make positive informed decisions at your current state of being.
I spent many years in AA and saw a huge number of people in pain. I also saw the other side where getting sober brought peace and happiness. I wish you well and pray that you might see using a tool to watch your loved one squirm is not using it for a positive reason. I am not judging you. The pain and frustration is off the scale. I understand you did not sign up for a marriage to a person who does not show what you might expect. None of us did, but we all have to figure out if we are willing to do whatever it takes to stay positive through the pains.
Take what I say realizing I am new to this forum, but not new to life and challenges. I am learning about how to handle myself first. I am more than willing to simply love her and get back the happy spirit I know she has in her. The only reason she cannot show it at home is she is maxed out and fighting her own brains deception. All of our brains have much more evolution on the primitive part of the brain associated to fight or flight. Humans were given the ability to use the frontal cortex to assess what your brain is saying with a flood of hormones to see if that is real danger or perceived. Most of the danger in life is perceived and self created. That pink dinosaur is just that.
Unfortunately some of us are not as blessed to use all of our reasoning part of the brain to process what their fear parts are telling them, so they retreat in confusion. When I found this forum when I was feeling lost because she left and did not say anything about her whereabouts. I had to get through knowing she is an adult and will find a safe place to sort out things. Do I wish things would have been handled different. Of course. Who wouldn't. I did not consider until Christmas Eve she had gone into inpatient therapy.
That does not take the pain of not knowing away. I can see how once she got there she did not know they would take away all distractions, cell phones the biggest. It was clear why no contact was made. She was not able. I get that too. Healing requires pain to force ourselves to see what part we can change and if we are willing to accept that or move on. I am sure you have heard the words: "pain is gain." What does not kill us makes us stronger. I hope you find the ability to use the tools for you to make a decision how to get happiness and peace back in both of your lives. I know he is in confusion and it seems they do not feel your pain, but you cannot teach them how. You and I are too close to the situation. You have to keep on rowing and focus on the positive.
I close with the knowledge that I love my wife and will do what ever it takes to keep us whole if that is still possible. No matter, whatever makes her happy I will accept and know her happiness is also the path to my own. If she finds she needs to move on I must understand that too.
In our marriage vows I said I would love, honor and respect her through sickness and health. I take things I say to heart. I assure this is a sickness and no matter what is making you or him sick, support and a positive mindset is imperative.
Best wishes.
JM
Positivity
Submitted by honeyblonde on
Is key. I know I've been pretty negative and down in the dumps about this whole thing. Ur words are appreciated and very comforting and helpful. It feels so hard to be heard and understood. I just beg for some rational reasoning. A conversation with complete understanding. Instead it's just confused, unheard, or misconstrued and typically it comes back at me and I have to untie it, and explain myself, defending my words. It's very mentally exhausting, not to mention, plain old confusing.
The only part of your response that I wanted to throw out as a consideration, is that I imagine ADHD husbands come with some different situations than ADHD wives. I haven't read much for the non ADHD husband. I can say that the part about saying no, not accepting his behavior, choosing myself, etc. comes from a place where I am being mentally and emotionally abused by a man. (Whether he will admit or accept it or not) he tries to bully me. I'm small, he's tall. He uses everything to his advantage to "win" these selfish wars with me. He will use intimidation. I guess that's why i feel so desperate for something to change. I know his actions are damaging me. I've been in abusive relationships before and crawled out and bounced back, but the scars are still there. I want to unconditionally love my husband. I guess I think this is outside of that to me. A condition. Biblically or religiously typically not often recognized, but having lived through it, it's something I'm not willing to accept. I know women can and do abuse men, and I feel confident that you have received your share of it. I appreciate your commitment and forgiveness to your wife. You deserve the same commitment and respect and unconditional love as well. We all do.
There is one thing that I have found to be true in relationships. When you let someone disrespect you, even a little, they lose respect for you, just a little, every time. And so the cycle continues. It's possible this is different with a person suffering from ADHD and the behaviors of it, but I'm not going to risk it.
im not lying in bed with a a man who doesn't give me the consideration that I deserve. Period. ADHD or not. I wouldn't let someone in my home who speaks to me or treats me the way he does, much less in my bed.
I'll forgive, but only after complete acknowledgment without blame or manipulation.
Land I will try to be more positive in future posts. I'm hope to gain some control,over my own happiness so that I can feel like myself again.
Danger's With Not Understandiing
Submitted by kellyj on
Honeyblonde,
I am getting a better feel for what my wife really wants from me all the time...but at first...she couldn't say what that was. She would say that she didn't like how I left clutter or things on the kitchen counter. Okay? So I stopped doing that. Then she would get angry that there was clutter in the place I moved the things too. "Okay?" (now getting irritated). "Where would you like me to put them?"
Her answer " somewhere where I'm not." I want these five rooms off limits to any clutter....period." No discussion or choice on this at all from my perspective. So I set about the task of trying to find somewhere in our home that I could go so I wouldn't leave anything out of any exposed surface ever since.....I cannot not have ADHD and in respect to my wife's wishes.....I already know that I cannot do what she wants. ADHD is NOT.....I repeat....NOT and inability to be focus here and a "distraction" disorder as it's namesake tells us it is. This is absolutely false even though that "IS" what it looks like. I am making a point here so please bear with me...( I'm not defending ADHD and people who have it at least....not my intention)
To the point.....one of my most outstanding abilities or skills (positive ones) is to think on my feet, make (micro) split second (life depending decisions and reactions) and then act on them without hesitation and be right 100% of the time. How can I say this? At 150 mph riding my motorcycle....I have done this very thing which is proven by the fact that I am still alive and have never crashed (knock on wood lol) or I wouldn't be writing this at the present time.
So how can this be? Why do I know that I cannot keep 5 rooms free of clutter and pay attention to not putting things down and leaving them everywhere when I can pay attention to something so closely that my very life depends on it with enough confidence to say I can do it every time barring the worst and most unusual of circumstances. ( I know that riding my bike at those speeds....anyone can die and there is no guarantee) And yet....I've been doing this for decades and the results have been exactly what I said....to the point....that I can say right this very minute with absolute assurance (barring only the worst case happening) that I am 99.999% sure that I can walk out....jump on my bike....go race around a track and come home alive and unscathed? Wouldn't you think this would require skills on a level that would exceed the norm? Not just skills in controlling the motorcycle....but skills in the area of focus and attention? One minor miscalculation or missed moment of focus and attention and you will die in an instant at that speed?
I say yes....skills that most I think would agree that they probably do not posses right at this moment even if their life depended on it? And even if they wanted to...it would take years to acquire those skills and to the point.....most people I tell this to say things like..."OMG...that doesn't sound like fun at all!! In fact...that would scare me to death and I would never be able to do that!!"
But the answer is....."yes you could....if you really wanted to." But if you had to even if you didn't want to....I would tell that person "not to even try." If you don't want it that bad.....you'll die trying because you won't have it within you to do that thing if you don't have the desire and the motivation to do it in the first place.
In my case....I do it because I love it. I love it so much...that it is one of my favorite activities in the world. It's worth the risk for what I get back out of it and I would feel deprived of something that I love that much if I were not to do it....but, I would give it up if I had something else that was more important. My wife being one of them.
And yet....I love my wife more than this and I still can't promise her (like with my bike example) ...that I will always remember to pick up after myself and not leave things out after I finish with them. Why? Because I trust myself that much and know exactly why this is for myself. I also trust myself enough to know when I can't do something like picking up things off counters and living areas. Why? Because the reasons I leave things out.
What are those reasons? Actually only one reason. I have ADHD.....and I have an almost complete inability to arrange things in my mind in a hierarchical prioritized way without laying them all out in front of me so I can see them while I'm working with them like other people. I have to have all the puzzle pieces laid out in front of me so I can see which shape goes with with each other shape and then look at the little bit of the picture on each piece to see how they match up together so I can find the right piece and where it goes.
And I do this the same as I just described (like everyone does when they do a jig saw puzzle) which no one can do unless they do it exactly the same way as I described. And until I finish the jig saw puzzle and put the last piece in place....I still have to have all the pieces out in front of me or else I simply can't finish the puzzle.
You know that this is true without even trying....that is....if someone told you that you need to do a jig saw puzzle blind folded without being able to see the pieces. You know that you can't do this right? Well....it the same thing. I know I can't do what my wife wants because what she wants is the very thing that is preventing me from doing it. She can do it without having to have everything laid out in front of her....but I can't. I have to do it differently than she does and I don't have a choice.
But.....I can make spit second decisions, laser focus to the exclusion of ALL other distractions like riding my bike and not die. She cannot. And she would be the first one to admit that she wouldn't even begin to entertain the thought even if she had the curiosity to learn. Why? Because my wife is horrible at spacial orientation , balance and is inherently "clumsy"and cannot make split second decision about anything. Compared to me that is. She can't. She simply does not posses the same set of skills to even start with, and the last thing I would ever do is ask her to come learn to ride motorcycles with me. Why? Because I don't want her to die!! lol
So this brings me to a few things that have been said in this thread that I know are wrong...but there is no way I can explain it or tell anyone differently...but yet....I know they're wrong..that is the statements that is. I understand one thing however. I understand there is no way for you all to understand and that I have come to accept. My job isn't to make you all understand.....my job (here) at least....is to get you to entertain the notion that there may be a different explanation to the ones you already have or believe are true since.....if they're wrong.....then you will only be hurting yourself by believing they're true....not for my benefit at all.
I can't know what it is like on the other side of being with a spouse who has ADHD because that is the side I'm on and will never know all the things that you know.
But that's not to say that what I know about myself and my side is wrong either even if everyone else thinks they are right....know what I mean?
To sum this up? If a person with ADHD is undiagnosed and just learning about themselves and what this is all about....they will be at the very beginning of learning a lot of new information and changing a lot of things they thought were true only to find out that they are not. And then figure out a whole new set of skills to replaced a lifetime of adaptive strategies they have already.
In it's very essence for that person.....or even for you if you were in the same situation.....you need to scrap everything you know and have to re- learn and replace everything with something new and start from scratch. And I have been doing this for so long now...that I have moved a long way to getting to the point of being able to do many things I simply was not able to do before....not only Okay....but actually really well. I know for a fact....that I can do this with everything else as long as I am given the chance to relearn and put the effort in to do it. At this point for me I'm saying....is all I have to do.
So in the mean time....is my wife Okay with some clutter and not always finding a different way around the fact that I can't do what she does? No. She wants what she wants and she wants it NOW! No clutter...nothing left out or in view....always....all the time.
Is this a reasonable thing to ask? For anyone without ADHD is it....but she not with someone without ADHD....but that's what she wants. She want me and she wants me not to have ADHD. What can I say about that?
I have only one option in our case. I have relegated myself and all my personal belongings to a back room that us to be used for storage. It's not where I want to be or where I want to have my things. I can't use my own house in the way I want and I can't even be in the same room with my wife anything that requires (things) whether it be for pleasure or for work anywhere she is. If she finds any left laying around even if I am in the middle of doing something...she just throws them in a box on top of other things and just leaves them in a pile in my little back room on the floor and just keeps piles more things on top of them just to get them out of (her) way. I clean up my little room....and she just piles up more things on top of them with no respect to my "little space" that is the only one I'm allowed to use any more. That is unless I can find a way not to leave things out anymore but then ....I can't work, I can't play, I can;t doing anything that I use to do in the way I use to do it. All that is left is do either do nothing in her presence....or go to a shitty unfinished room that I only used for storage and is not only not comfortable....it not even heated currently!! Not what I would call a fair arrangement when my wife get to enjoy the best rooms of the house with all the amenities in them and can do anything she likes there because she made those rules by protest, anger and complaint not by agreement and a reasonable discussion where we both agree.
But....I'm the one with ADHD.....I get no allowances for that. No excuses. No allowances....nadda..nichts, zilch....zero. I have no voice or say in the matter if I want to keep the peace. Do I want to give up the spaces in my house that I worked for the last 26 years making beautiful and remodeling them with my own two hands and put the sweat and effort in to get them there?
And.....on top of that.....it is the house that I lived in for over 26 years before she first came to live with me and this was never mentioned to me before when she came over many times and was there and saw exactly what my house was like before she moved in. Not a single word was every mentioned until she was already here. How do you think I feel about that? How would you feel if this was you?
And in respect to what I am saying....how do you think my wife would feel (or what she would say) if I expected her to jump on my motorcycle and take it for a spin around the block? I think she might say something like..."are you F%$ing crazy?"
Not really....I just have ADHD:)
"Honestly, I don't think he will do it on his own..." the danger in what you just said is...that people in general will generally speaking...rise to the level of your expectation you put on them and no further if it's something that is difficult or not something enjoyable to do.
What is needed here is to know when to "disengage" and when not to. And then....when to re-engage when it is timely and appropriate. This is a skill that no one has to begin with. It is a learned skill but it can be acquired through experience. Disengaging and staying that way is the end result of what I did with my wife before I stepped up and did something about this situation. Do you think this was a smart move on her part based on how I feel about this and where I ended up based on her decision to do this? One I had no choice in or say in the matter unless I was to live with an aggressively angry volatile person instead of a reasonable one who is mostly unhappy most of the time with brief periods of happiness? Do you sense the resentment I have here? (you should if you're not).
And as it turns out.....the main reason my wife did this was because...as she says it and still believes to this day...that if it was really important to me...I would do it to prove how much I love her.
The is categorically and completely wrong and there is nothing I can do to get her to believe anything otherwise however...she will admit that keeping a tidy house in the way she does is a habit she learned long ago and it wasn't that hard to learn for her and is not that difficult for her do do....so there fore.....I'm just like all other guys and I'm just lazy and that's my choice. If I really wanted to...I could just do it like her.
My reply to her? "My motorcycle is waiting for you in the garage whenever you are up to it.... the tires on her are a little worn but that shouldn't be a problem as long as you keeps it under 120mph" :)
What you also said I see as another danger in your own thinking. It seems no matter what I say, do, show, suggest or nag and no matter how many times I do it, he will not learn from me.
You can't teach your h anything....you don't have ADHD. There is a reason why he does what he does....and he's the only one who can tell you why. He is just at a stage where he doesn't fully understand why himself. But the last person in the world who is going to know the right thing to do and when is a person who doesn't have it. The only true way to learn and assimilate that learning into working knowledge and a skill that goes along with it is........EXPERIENCE!
That means....someone can tell you how to do something 100 times ....but it takes many, many attempts at trial, error and failure to actually learn it and put it into practice and do it flawlessly and never make a mistake which come through experience, repetition and failure. Those three things are required to learn anything!!!
Telling someone to do something new and expecting them do to it would be like me telling my wife to go jump on my motorcycle and go the track and ride it at 150mph after giving her a verbal run down of everything she needed to do and then just expect her to do it without killing herself or even falling down the same as I can do....guaranteed 100% of the time without ever failing. It is exactly the very same thing. If you could not do what I just said.....why do think expect anything different from you spouse? It is the very same thing even if you don't believe that it is. In this case....I am 100% accurate and correct in what I am saying and I know that I am right. Why? Because I'm the one who has it...I'm self aware and I know what I am talking about without question in this case.
If other people don't believe me.....that doesn't mean I'm wrong:)
J
J
Submitted by honeyblonde on
Thank you for your thoughts and for all the information. It was been helpful in understanding some of these issues. I do a lot of research and reading on the topic, but it's a lot to take in. I'm not completely unfamiliar with these behaviors, as much of my experience and education is with children who have special needs. Different, yes, but not completely unrelated. My and ps ur major issues are not about cleaning, clutter or hobbies. Initially that is where the arguing and the tantrums began but as our lives came together, we have had many many other more serious issues. Financial is a big one at this time. We have dealt with the trust and lying, verbal and emotional abuse, insulting, intimidation and many more completely unacceptable behaviors. Not to mention the general selfishness and lack of consideration for others, mainly me. I'm a pretty patient person, but he has taken advantage of this. Maybe these issues aren't a direct behavior of ADHD but perhaps indirectly related to years of living undiagnosed.
Time will tell. I will continue to be patient, yet stand my ground. I'm not engaging and I don't criticize, but I won't stand by and watch my home, my bank account or my life go down the drain, just to accommodate his need to never feel wrong. Therefore blaming me. Being wrong, failure, or making mistakes are not pleasant feelings for anyone, but we all have to learn how to deal with them without blaming others and becoming out of control to the point of disrespecting those closest to you.
I can't help but feel like I struck a nerve in you with some of the things I've posted. These are things I share with others who can understand my position because they are in the same position. I do appreciate thoughts from a seasoned, medicated, educated ADHD'er, however part of this forum that I find comforting is to share frustrations with others who share the same frustrations.
In my opinion and experience an ADHD person can do many detailed and organized tasks, IF it suits their interests.
Healthy
Submitted by kellyj on
I think you should not stand by and tolerate behavior that is unacceptable by anyone standards especially your own. Not letting your H abuse himself and abuse you at the same time is also where I draw the line myself. That is....you can't stop him from himself but you can stop him from letting that bleed over onto you. Finances is a big BIG problem I have to agree. In our case (my wife and I)....this is not one of our issues....to say, we have our finances under control and I let her do all the bill paying so we don't run into issues with me having to be on time or late with things. This is what she does much better than I do and for me....it is kind of a no brainer.
But I do know what it is like to be with someone who is irresponsible with money and that also hasn't been one of my issues personally even though....I have trusted people. I shouldn't have and I have learned my lessons well from those experiences. Being proactive was the only way to manage that and I hated every minute of it.
And no...you didn't hit a nerve or say anything that I take exception to....it's simply hard to tell someone what you know (or what you have learned in where you have gone wrong in the past) without showing the other side without including the real parts or sides to the story and do it without showing any emotions about them at all.
This I think is healthy. As Melissa mentioned earlier....something would be wrong if you didn't have arguments over some things and stand up when the person you are with are not taking you seriously or dismissing you completely. From the sound of things all things considered. I think your H is not taking his part seriously enough.
On your behalf....most of what I was saying really was for your benefit. If you can differentiate what you are seeing...I think it wil help save you a lot of grief if you have either misinterpreted something innocuous....or conversely, not seeing something that is not ADHD and attributing it to a place that he really can do something about and he's not. That is probably the most difficult part for you non's. I am still narrowing this down myself but I have a much better idea now than I ever did before. That does make it easier for me to talk about these things with my wife and know that I am speaking with some knowledge from the experience to show her first hand as we go. This I have found is the best thing going for us right now. If your H isn't able to do this at all.....I really think you two need some outside help to this part for him....that is....to tell YOU which is which so you will also know. The not knowing is very much the worst part of it all.....saying before, for me too:)
J
Dear Newly Wed
Submitted by jennalemone on
Hi. This from a 40 year veteran of marriage to an ADDer. Your soliloquy is a fresh and honest layout of what we, those of us married to ADDers for a long amount of time, have come to accept, dismiss and try to "get on" with it. I like that you wrote and believe that, for me, nothing has changed in awarenesses. I am glad to be reminded of who I was before I started to accept and change myself to accomodate bad behavio. There seems to be a difference in standards of trust, honesty, effort, work, integrity and commitment between my H and me. And I am getting back to where you are now, where I was when I started this journey of information and trial understanding. I gave too much of my self away trying to accomodate someone who did me and my children real harm.... In my case it was a spouse who was not wiling or not able to commit and give effort into a team.
First Smile in nearly a week - Thank You
Submitted by stonewalled on
Dear jennalemone, First let me say how refreshing your post has been to me along with others I have found here. In my very small business I deal with a lot of Military and Fraternal Groups that most often their newest recruits are my customers, therefore the way our younger generation talks has often made me adjust verbiage. They seem to live in the world of short and at times curt answers.
I have found highly intelligent people here that are in the same boat as myself. It is very much like that AA that helped me get sober 22 years ago because I wanted to be there for my wife when we got older. Who knew I would have a role reversal. I still embrace sobriety. It was too hard to stop drinking so I just could not go back. It also amazes me that many of us who are well educated, whether it be by University or Life, we all find ourselves as giving, loving, compassionate people "to a fault." That too was a shock since I was raised in a loving home and although I love my Dad to suicide at age 14, my Mother and Sister who have both passed were beacons of love and giving. They both suffered greatly, but somehow pushed through and had a happy face in spite of incredible odds. Wow...at this time I just hope to live to see a 40 year marriage like you, but with a bit more peace.
The stress has increased over the past 5 years such that I have now developed high blood pressure, lost 40 lbs. since April, and have been losing my voice but nobody has screened me for throat cancer after 4 specialists. The "will to live" does become more difficult when you have lost your entire family to death, a best friend of 30 years and now to lose my last person on earth, my wife. Who would have guessed that my fathers suicide would actually be a deterrent for me at times like this. I saw first hand the destruction suicide does to those left behind. Suffice to say that a family being cast to the four corners is not a metaphor.
I was so happy 'C' posted to me earlier which told me that our conversations to an ADD'r are only heard to the first few words and that does not change. Brain wiring is funny, but I am seeing that it can change with age and stress. I think my wife is experiencing both of those at work. Tasks she could do easier 10 years ago are not very easy now. She only recently told me that she was hanging on by a thread at work and did not want to let me know. She knows me and how she could ever have thought I would not go so far as to do some of her work at home was amazing. Yes, that is part of our non-ADD'r fault, but I would rather love too hard than not at all.
I see how the standards of trust, ( what trust?), honesty, ( good heavens I did not think people our age lied for nonsensical things), effort, ( minimal), work and integrity. I see how all these things apply. I also see how you must have learned as "c ur self" has to "start to accept and change myself to accommodate" her. My love and commitment has not wavered, so if this is to work, I am not a biochemical engineer that can change brain chemistry and know what the outcome would be, but I am a loving husband who is willing to be her At A Glance planner, do the same things I do now without asking for more help, and keep my discussions to sentences. Those are true words of wisdom that I am grateful for you sharing. There are way too few sources for Adult ADD. The "fad" seems to be ADHD, but I am convinced in a great many middle age to older folks are finding smart phones are a big trigger to their problems.
I can actually trace my wife's real change in behavior back to 2010 before she could text photos and post on Facebook, and even accept instant messages from unknown men that I stumbled upon when fixing her phone and was poked by a guy who claimed to grow up in her small town, but when I searched that site and his I found no connection on that home town site. He was a creepy owner of a bowling alley in California poking my wife on FB under the guise of growing up in a town and talking about things that he could have found on that township website. That was dangerous and she did not see it.
I could not call that cheating, but it is why those of us in these positions tried for years to wake that brain up to the dangers of people in society, much less the new online issues. Thanks for posting to me. I know there is someone like us out there desperate to have some peace and answers. I only hope we can be there for each other. I feel I have found a new home with new "acquaintances", but a bit more than that. Simple acquaintances often do not have such a big problem to solve if they are too survive.
In the 60's, this would have taken 5-10 minutes on the phone attached to the cord 3 feet from the wall.
Thank you for your sharing. It really helps to meet new people my age with my situation.
Warm Wishes, JM
Valuable thoughts, Stonewalled
Submitted by jennalemone on
This sentence you wrote is most beautiful: "I would rather love too hard than not at all."....Yes. This was exactly why I stayed so long....Not knowing if it is a good thing to do...to love in the face of being humiliated... But that is who I was. That is who I thought I would like to be. I am working on learning a different goal, however....I thought I was strong enough to be that way. At the end, I find that it has taken a toll I could not have foreseen on my formerly strong self and I realize I did not allow myself to FIGHT for my integrity and character. Sometimes loving needs to look like STRENGTH. My parents were strong in their style of loving...many times as a child it did not look loving to me. But I gave H the benefit of my doubts and fed his ego with permitting myself to be swayed by his louder, stronger demands and ways.
Also, "Keep conversation to single sentences." Who I am is also someone who LOVES deep, long intimate conversations. I must remember to not engage H with my need for this. Single directive sentences...no questions. Yes...that is the only way to try to communicate with H, sadly.
GUIDING LIGHT IS NOT A SOAP OPERA
Submitted by stonewalled on
Dear jemmalemone,
You have been a positive guiding light to me along with some others. I hope I am not breaking some forum / blog code of starting my posts with "Dear ___ ,." I hope I did not read that you have given up. I was raised in the 50's when priorities were about food on the table and basic necessities. One theme that seems consistent to many of the elders of ADD, ( by elders I mean more wisdom than I have), is WE who post are talkers who seek sharing. My posts are getting too long. It is giving me a pain in the neck. To me, that is a metaphor for what my long winded discussions trying to be understood is like for my wife. ( I am a bit puzzled at the use of H for husband and W for wife) It is comforting to me to see so many need to share a lot. That is just the personality type that flies in the face of ADD from what I am learning. I have always been a communicator, but when my best friend of 30 years passed away at age 60, I lost my person to share all I have learned in my life, which left my wife to try to fill that void. Was that a mistake! He was a Doctor and scientist that we had a ton in common as we went to the same schools and ended up working at the same practice. We shared everything from strange ocular problems to family challenges. How I expected my wife to become that listener of things she could not possibly understand was fool hardy. One does strange things when grieving, but it is impossible to see that ADD and too much conversation would be a problem.
Your saying you LOVE DEEP makes me feel like I have found some like minded people. Then you said you enjoyed "long intimate conversations" that I too considered was simply good because I was taught "communication is the key to any good marriage." I have learned that too much of anything can be damaging. I hope to communicate with those on this forum who not only can talk as one of all of our strength, but get frustrated that their spouse is not able to give it back to the same degree.
It is all about degrees to me. If I do my best to keep to short cohesive sentences and take my need to talk to those on this forum and at Church, I cannot help but think my life will get better. I am not big on religious dogma, but we did find a place that is totally non-judgmental and a Christian church. I might have questions about Christian dogma, but I cannot argue with the Love that is shown by so many in that Church. I did not grow up in the denominiation I am speaking about, but it was a place my wife and I found that seemed different than our traditions, but the Love is all that matters.
Again, I go on and on. I am just grateful I can do that here knowing that I am not alone in this behavior. I am just going to try to shift my long winded discussions to those who are receptive. My best buddy and I used to take road trip and I told him many times he would take all the Oxygen out of a room. He repeated himself a lot, but I would give so much to have that back. It cannot happen with him, but I can seek to find another person like him who can just converse. That way I do not put that burden on my wife who I love.
I am making lemonade out of life's lemons. Sometimes it is yellow lemonade, and sometimes it is pink lemonade, but it is sweeter than the alternative. In lemonade add sugar. In life with my ADD wife, "ADD SUGAR." I know she really responds well to hugs and expressions of love that are very hard at time when one feels betrayed or marginalized. If there is one thing I can teach myself is to simply ADD SUGAR. We stopped kissing intimately, but always kiss when she leaves for work and kiss before bed. I know she would rather I take her in my arms and just ADD SUGAR !
If you need someone to talk to I am here for you. I cannot get into the deep intimate conversations to fill that void, but I can be here to understand and simply listen and share.
I hope you have not reached point of lost hope. My life has turned into old adages. Who knew they would all have validity in life.
Take care and know we are here for you. The intimate discussions are great when you can get them, but as I told my wife for years, can't you feel what I feel? Do you not have empathy? I have enough empathy for both of us. A sincere hug and a loving kiss is my hope to overcome that need for talking about it, but rather "showing it with my actions."
I certainly have not been successful by holding back my affection because I was hurting. Much of that hurting was self inflicted. Now it is my turn to start showing more than talking. Talking got me here. Love will hopefully toss me a life line.
JM
P.S. Good Lord am I wordy. It is not rocket science why my wife with ADD found this difficult. I am finding myself difficult when I have to type it rather than talk it. Typing is a way to keep me in some check, but clearly I get my words in. UGH!
How's It Going?
Submitted by jlhrva on
Hi Honeyblonde...
How's it going with this? Are you still feeling strong and refusing to accept the negative treatment? I'm curious what reaction this choice/change may have prompted for you...?
Jlhrva
Submitted by honeyblonde on
I already responded to much of this, but I still try to,hold onto no negAtive blames or insults etc. but really me holding on to it just fuels him. It's not until I fall silent and retreat that he eventually wears himself out. It feels as though he just needs to verbally batter me until he's not mad at himself anymore. In your case you did nothing wrong. He should be able to control a bad mood or "waking up on the wrong side of the bed" better. It sounds as if he didn't prepare for his morning and took it out on you. Again, not the role you signed up for when you got married. I don't know if it changes. If it doesn't then I'll have to make the change and end the relationship. I find that if I try to help avoid these types of situations by reminding the night before or setting him up to not "fail" at these things he's just resentful. So I feel like I screwed either way. I hope medication and continued therapy helps.
Wisdom comes when a person is ready for it
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
jlhrva,
I have been a long time member of Al-Anon :)
Still learning,
Liz
30 years of marriage falling apart - it was not always there
Submitted by stonewalled on
This being my first post I was trying to respond to the person who was also married for 30 years and her husband was the ADD'er causing a ton of problems from the familiar "following me" when I go to read in a different room because my wife feels she does not need Therapy nor to read about her ADD and solutions to fix our marriage. I am partially disabled and have a home based business that has been very successful for nearly two decades, but recent years is leaving me less and less time to do my work and more time trying to sort out how my wife can say she still loves me but has forgot how. Tantrums in a 65 year old woman was a shock to my system. I was so shocked and she was so out of control, as a 22 year recovering alcoholic I saw her trying to get in her car when she was in the midst of this whaling tantrum that I have not heard since I raised my then wife's kids in my short previous marriage.
I had never seen that behavior in an adult, much less in a person about to retire. Recently her newest thing is to not come home and leave me wondering where she is and what she is thinking. Total lack of communication from what I have read is a huge problem. We did not always have this issue, but after a lot of soul searching, this began following the loss of my entire family along with my wife getting a smart phone.
Anybody that does not think smartphones can trigger or worsen a condition as Adult ADD is in denial. After all my immediate family died and my best friend of 30 years also died, I was left to look to my wife for support. That has been lost. Now she might as well be a live in nurse as the only things she does is pick up my medications and go to the important Doctor's visits. She has taken her vacation to her home where all her living family is without me for many years. She was not raised like this as her mother did not ever go anywhere without her Dad, nor did my parents until a tragedy took my Dad at age 14.
I have never felt so alone and now, days before Christmas, since I asked her why she has not participated in our Christmas at all and the things she has done she has kept me out of the loop leads me to conclude that the ADD has taken my life's love away. Has anyone else been left alone and in total silence as to her location and such. Sadness does not come close to describe the loneliness and hurt from the loss of my wife to her job and her cell phone. Timing for detachment could not have been worse this year. I am still waiting for her to phone me since she said all communication will only be on her terms in a short text two days ago. In a lot of pain, but understand the sense of loss is the source of the pain. I feel bad for her, but have to find a way to protect myself. She has no idea what is does to someone you love when they are gone and leave you with zero contact information. I am older now and cannot do much but ask her to seek help with me. The last therapist she told there was no sense in going to her because she refused to do the things she was asked. It was only to consistently read her ADD book and fill out a planner so we have concrete things rather than empty time she will use to hurt our relationship.
Sorry for the length. I know I am a man and most abuse comes from men, but in my home we have a role reversal, not because she was the bread winner until this past year, but because I was not able to work 9-5 and therefore had to start a home business. It did not dawn on me I would have to do my work, take care of all the outdoors even with spinal degeneration and arthritis in all my joints from years of sports. Even my surgeon told me to keep the outdoor work in halves. In addition to the outdoors, all the cooking and most of the cleaning I care for our 4 dogs that have been with me since birth. I do hope someone out there has a better Christmas than mine is becoming. Take care all of you. I have two Masters degrees and 12 years of college, but this is by far my biggest challenge.
Hello Stonewalled....
Submitted by c ur self on
Much of what you state in your post, I have lived with for the past almost 8 years I've been married to my wife....1) This is what it looks like to me....1) A desire to control everything and everyone....2) Selfishness (Not saying their minds aren't causing it, but, the effects on the mate is the same no matter the cause.....Hyper-focus; my wife's smart phone can dominate her time, brings it to bed...Anything that is shiny so to speak, She can't rationalize or manage time. 3) Feeling abandoned even when they are around is common, unless you happen to be the thing their hyper-focusing on that particular day. 3) Independence to the point of disrespect for the marriage one minute, and extreme Co-dependence when it comes to the responsible things in life, they refuse to tackle, so they can constantly want you to do it for them....
It makes a marriage difficult when one or both parties can't or want communicate...(another add issue) I'm learning to believe what I see, and not expect anything different...I'm much more at peace when I place no expectations on her...
Blessings and Merry Christmas!
C
Merry Christmas everyone!
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
Have a blessed day
Hoping you had a Merry Christmas
Submitted by stonewalled on
Dear overwhelmedwife,
Your story was the one that made me feel posting here was a good thing. Even if I am a man I felt so much of what you said was part of my daily life. I got a message after days of not knowing where my wife went to say that she is safe and I can only assume getting professional help. It just scares me to think that this place she went seems to think it is ok to let the spouse think the worst thoughts one can have about bad things happening at this time of year. Of course this was not the first time my wife went incommunicado for days on end. She would go on her yearly vacation to her home without me as usual and if they left the place she was staying she would forget completely to let me know. I would go for days and once a week not having a clue where she was. When she would finally reach out it was like she had no clue about how this was so hurtful.
I guess all I can do it sit back and pray one day she or someone will include me in her recovery. Why they think we do not count enough to let me know she was alive was terrible way to spend Christmas week. Thank you for your post and I pray you will get the peace I am seeking. You and I have been married for over 30 years. Just one foot in from of the other.
I went to a "Blue Christmas" service alone and received an anointing of oil because I know I am totally powerless to change the place I am in other than one minute at a time.
Much Love and Blessings to You Too !!!!
JM
Kindred Spirits Of ADD
Submitted by stonewalled on
Dear C,
Thank you so much for your personal experience. I am sure you know how alone one can feel when she is here but not here. This Tuesday morning my wife disappeared after sending me a text after 5pm that she was going to a safe place and she will contact me when she is ready. I was horrified. I spent all week on a roller coaster of emotions to the point I finally sent her a text saying to please give me some guidance if I should file a missing persons report or how I should respond to her sisters Merry Christmas call. I heard nothing.
I have lost all my family except on cousin who is close to me but has a lot on her own plate, so I do not abuse her time other than the normal calls. On Christmas Eve, with no word as to whether my wife is alive or not, and my mind racing to every alternative under the sun,
I called my dear cousin who helped me understand her leaving was a first step in a process to find herself. For a guy that is so very hard to fathom. I am partially disabled and when she left each year on "her" vacation it was very hard on me to keep up with all the things I do plus the simple things she did. My cousin who is also in her 60's understood from a woman's view that she had taken a first step and I had to stop breaking down and try to stay strong. After an hour of calming me down she made me understand it could be as long a two weeks or a month before I get any contact. Heartbroken, I understood I had no options but to accept this and take care of my home and work. The last text I send said I was NOT going to call her sister back for Christmas and not going to call the police to file a missing persons report. I told her I would respect her decision and give her the space needed.
On Christmas day I got a text from someone asserting it was her "sponsor" and I did not need to file a missing persons report. I am not sure if that was a set up to see my reaction or just informative, but it was clear this sponsor only read the words "police" and "missing persons report" and responded to those words and missed my saying I respected her space and would NOT call anyone.
Of course I am relieved she is safe and what appears checked into a metal health facility. I am equally surprised that a mental health clinic who understands Adult ADD would do to me what my wife did all the time, read the first sentence incompletely, decode the message wrong, and respond in a reptile fashion even though the message was clear. Of course I said I was grateful to hear she was ok and asked that her "sponsor' please read the texts I sent completely. I told her I had already submitted to her decision and would not call the police. Now I am concerned that I my wife who was not able to find any help, from what she told me, has checked into a facility that gives her sponsors that have the same condition and are still doing the same things.
Later, thinking I might have been set up because I get a tad wordy, I sent a quick text to tell this sponsor "thank you for letting me know." I was upset that they felt it was ok to leave an aging man with health issues of his own not knowing anything for days until they decided to send me a "shes ok" only after a perceived threat from police missing persons.
How is that helping? It made me worry she was in a place that percieved me as the bad guy. Yes, I talked too much trying to help her learn about her disorder and really dissected our 31 years together to see where and when this began. Why would this place she went value to little that spouse who has held down the ship in the most trouble times? It seems my pain, doing all the work and suffering through this meant nothing but a notice she was OK after days of no sleep and worry.
The issues you put forth has been my life for a very long time. When I was younger and in better health I could keep up doing almost everything but the simpliest tasks, like doing the dishes and her default laundry she did to get away. These days I am having a harder time and find it difficult to reason out why it was necessary to keep me in the dark about her status for days. That seemed very cruel to a person who spent months planning to have a Christmas with friends and found myself being sabotaged at every turn, leaving us no Thanksgiving with friends or anyone and as you know left me for Christmas.
I wish I had checked email yesterday but Christmas day was very hard to even function. I felt set up and betrayed not to mention abandoned. How is that helping anyone to keep secrets. I got into verbal discussions for hours that of course caused word barbs, but she was just as bad and often worse.
This is the most difficult thing I have ever been handed. My wifes mind left me years ago and I was preparing to start to realize she was like having a child again and at times one with Alzheimer's. I accepted this as my future and was willing to live with doing everything knowing she was no longer able, and then she was gone.
Yes, this makes a marriage very difficult. Sorry for the wordiness. I grew up with telephones and we had to dial only 5 digits to get a person. Technology has not been good to my family. I have a minor in computer information systems and know my desire to keep up with chnages in technology to the smartphone, basically a computer in a phone, would lead my wife to near total detachment.
I hope you had a Merry Christmas! In some ways I am glad she is in a mental health place, but that is a guess based on an anonymous text from a sponsor. How can they so totally exclude the person who has suffered from this behavior and treat me as I do not matter? I am struggling with my own self esteem at this point and that does not help.
Thanks again for sharing your story. I have the exact same issues and it helps to know someone understands. It is so hard to find anyone responding on these blogs and forums, I am very grateful you took the time for a stranger.
Warm Christmas Wishes and Healthy New Year!
JM
Mental illness seems to
Submitted by c ur self on
Mental illness seems to always produce a level of instability in a person (more for some than others and denial makes it 10 times worse) and especially in our relationships... If I base my hope's for a peaceful life on a person who acts out of this type mind, I become just as unstable as (or more so) that person...We have to see through the lens of reality...We must keep a firm grip on our own emotions because when we are trying to partner with a self-absorbed mind (mental illness) it will always place your emotional wellness in jeopardy when you fall for the illusion that this kind of mind can sustain a healthy view of life and daily be responsible to it. Especially when comes to their commitments and Vows to another person...Stay Strong, deal with your own heart and know that your only positive impact on her will be your prayers, a healthy love, and stability in living your own life...Love can never be forced, and many don't know what real love is, so how can they know how to give it? I have found God's love that comes through Jesus Christ is sufficient in all things... We are complete in him... I pray you find the peace you are so desperately seeking... I pray this for us all.!
Oh Wise One - You Give Me So Much Help
Submitted by stonewalled on
Thank you for your posting. They have helped me tremendously navigating my way through this change in my life. I totally agree Love must be at the root and positive actions are mandatory. Thanks again. You and others are becoming my beacons in the darkness of the healing process.
Warmest wishes,
JM
What do I say if she returns from inpatient therapy
Submitted by stonewalled on
Dear c ur self,
I do not want to monopolize your knowledge, however you seem to have a very similar situation to mine. I have not seen if your spouse ever checked into a inpatient therapy place, but when she left me on last Tuesday with no warning and no letting me know where she went nor if she was safe, I felt totally abandoned. Since then you and a couple others have helped to see it is possible to live with a person with ADD successfully. That is my goal, but tomorrow she will officially be gone for a full week and I am literally assuming she is in a place for Therapy only because her sponsor sent me a text saying she was safe and I did not need to file a missing person report.
Now I am finding myself at a lose as to how I will need to handle if she decides to return home. The old self feeling the old ADD wounds wants to say: " Did you ever think how your actions to disappear Christmas week with no warning, no contact as to your safety affect me?" Yes, that is old programming that is hard to stop. I have been raw for months trying to help her understand how to overcome her ADD with what was taught from the last Therapist she saw, the books we read, ( or I know I read them), and the need to use a planner so her brain does not get confused day to day.
Yes, I can almost hear you say, "she did not even think about that" but her focus was getting help for a situation that was clearly destroying our 31 years together. That is likely part of it, however how does the non-ADD spouse not feel they have been terribly hurt again? I suspect at some point this place she went will want to talk to me. Honestly, I am very afraid of how this will go down and what I would say. I have cried so much before knowing she had a sponsor it was very risky to take a man who has been beaten down by ADD and living on the edge of a nervous breakdown.
I cannot help feel that she completed her process that has been going on for years to totally isolate me from her life and all our what used to me mutual friends that now only contact her on her cell phone. By her leaving me saying she needs a break flies in the face of all the vacation time she takes, all the time she leaves home for work while I am taking care of the house, care of the 4 dogs and working on my small business. She has taken ALL the time away from our home while I just live working to bring in an income, do all the cooking and most cleaning while having serious back degeneration, serious arthritis and other medical ailments that prevents me from flying any longer.
If I had not planned and coordinated with her our 25th Wedding Anniversary things would have gone the same as other important times, nothing would have happened. We would have lost our silver anniversary because she "did not think of it."
I am very concerned I will somehow blow it if asked to come to their clinic, ( again I am somewhat guessing), and talk about how she needs more support. How does the mental health community marginalize what happens to the spouse of an ADD'r ? Just reading this forum the mental anguish is off the charts on the non-ADD people. The ADD'r does not notice it or cannot process it by staying distracted often with TV or cell phones, the bane of my current existence.
Her leaving follows the "all or nothing": behavior. She told her last Therapist she refused to do what was she recommended so she quit going. Now she goes into a place that she took out thousands of dollars emptying a bank account for heaven knows what or where. That is the ALL and I go the NOTHING. So difficult to face what might be coming. After AA for many years I have seen romances start in Therapy, and some sponsors use that power for the wrong reasons.
I just want my wife back so we can find the love we had before she descended into this ADD behavior. My self esteem has taken such a hit, I am worried she will find a person who is wealthy and can overlook her detachments by hiring a full time maid, gardener, handyman, etc.. I am not rich or wealthy, so my own options appear to be nil.
Any thoughts would be very appreciated.
JM
JM
Submitted by c ur self on
JM there is nothing healthy in what is going on with you two. You are just like me and many on this site searching for something to say or do, that will bring some kind of rational explanation to how our mates live life...But, the reality of it is there is nothing you or I can do, except guard our own hearts from getting hard, feeling cheated and allowing another person to create an identity for us...I really hate to suggest anything for you to SAY it's never helped me....Where denial and mental illness has created a mind that is so self-absorbed, they really aren't effect much by attempt to speak wisdom to them...It usually only escalates into something even more unhealthy. I stay busy even retired trying to keep the place up, so I know you are w/ a job and 4 pets....So take care of yourself. Do some things to let you breathe walk the dogs...Since you can't depend on her make your world a little smaller...Be wise and believe what you see....But, don't let your emotional wellness continue to go down based on what she is doing...You will never answer for 1 sin of hers, but we must answer for our own...The good news is Jesus died to take to own himself for all those who come to the Father through him....
Be Strong, I'm praying for you....
C
So sorry to hear that
Submitted by Monkeygirl on
Dear Stonewalled,
I am very sorry to hear your story. I realize that if you had been a woman I would try to suggest things to do to make your husband change his ways, but I feel like saying you should get a divorce and get her out of your life.
I guess I don't know your situation well enough to give that sort of advice, but it sounds like a woman who no longer wants to be part of her marriage. I'm appalled!
Happy holidays to you though,
MG
Christmas Eve :)
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
I skimmed and already see such good info, alas my brain is cyrrently on Christmas Eve Mode! I shall return to reread. As always, thanks for the input/response/reply/sharing-of-your-experiences.
Very Truly,
Liz
Merry Christmas Liz
Submitted by kellyj on
I'm getting ready myself to travel out or town to see relatives....hopes yours is a time for peace and calm at home for you too:)
J
I am Sorry!
Submitted by SunshineSC on
See my Post on this same forum entitled "Ten Years and I don't think I can do another". You do not want to be posting this in ten years! Get help. Get counseling. If it doesn't change fairly quickly, get out before you add kids to the situation. Just my blunt advice. I am sorry if it sounds mean, cruel, unloving, etc. I do not want you to be where I am ten years later. It doesn't get better without help and a true desire on his part to change. I hope you have a blessed day and put yourself first!
Lack of regulation...
Submitted by jlhrva on
You're right, honeyblonde. It is lack of ability to regulate.
What I've been realizing lately is that these cycles of rage/remorse/good times/rage are predictable and regular.
I used to think that they were attributable to us fighting, and to an extent, to my handling myself poorly with arguments. But I've been in therapy for 6 months now, and I've learned some objectivity. I've also learned with J's help and that of others here to stop feeding the beast, per se. I don't provide fuel for arguments, and I don't participate when they are initiated. So we haven't had any for quite a while. However, now that we are not arguing, the rage still comes out, it's just directed at inanimate objects or at circumstances. Like his breathing machine not working, so throw it at the wall at 3am. Or, he can't sleep because his back hurts, so throw a cut glass award across the room in the middle of the night. Or, the house is a mid-renovation nightmare or started projects and he's overwhelmed, so go downstairs and trash the shop. Or, the dog does something frustrating (I'm sure on top of leftover frustration from other things that have not been shared - lack of good communication), so have a half-hour rage out all over the house...
It seems that whether or not I provide fuel, or even participate, the rage is coming every 3-4 weeks, regardless.
I do wonder, as several people have asked here, whether this happens at work, or whether he would do it in front of family members, etc. I think it's possible he does behave this way at work, occasionally. That would explain a number of unfulfilled promises by his boss. But he has a blue collar job (that he doesn't need because his skills are more than sufficient to support him independently) and I think maybe there would be a greater allowance for 'oh he just has a bad temper' in a job like his...?
I do know that he truly believes he has no ability to control it. That this is supposed to be a "known factor" and a "part of him" that cannot be changed, so my failure to accept it constitutes a betrayal to him.