I have one recurring thought about honesty and am trying to make sense of it. The problem with my ex-husband now, is that I feel he hasn't been emotionally and intellectually honest. Irrespective of ADHD/non status, isn't honesty a basic form of respect that we owe our life partner and ourselves?
Or is honesty just another thing that makes sense to me, but an ADHD mind doesn't register?
Ok if a partner can't do what they promised. Ok if they forget, are distracted, disappoint in general. I wouldn't call that dishonesty. But always pretending? Masking true emotions, opinions and preferences?
It's painful that my ex-husband was never on the same page as me, but I was led to believe otherwise. Was the Jekyll-Hyde horror just truth showing briefly through pretence? I was under the impression that we lived according to agreements we'd made. In the end he declared he hadn't agreed when he'd said yes. None of the agreements were valid.
I was always asking for his opinion but he seemed unable to give it. Or maybe he didn't want to. Maybe since he couldn't make things happen, I really wasn't prepared to meet him halfway in decisions and then do all the work.
I believed him when he reassured me things were all right. When I tried to convince him of things with verbal acuity he seemed to accept and confirm my opinion. Only in retrospect he said I had been verbally bashing him into submission.
He also masked his deep depression and anxiety for years before diagnosis. Apparently it has a name: smiling depression. Strange as it may seem, for years I had no idea he was in such a bad state. I felt unhappy and insecure but couldn't understand why.
Of course it's easy to feel compassion for him since he's suffered so much and clearly been quite helpless. But then he threw all that in my face. He said he wished he'd left me long ago. He used up my years, pretending.
I think he might have hidden the truth because he was ashamed. Still I have a hard time forgiving him for it. I'm brought up with a strong sense of integrity and feel it's necessary to communicate beliefs and needs in a healthy way to our closest relations. Also to be intellectually honest.
Or is being honest not a virtue but a luxury you can afford only if you are fortunate?
Sorry I've been rewriting this a lot, hope nobody has replied invisibly yet.
What are your thoughts of honesty in ADHD/non-relationships?
Honesty is important to ADHDers as well
Submitted by alphabetdave on
Genuinely it is, and in my experience ADHDers are happiest when they're able to be as honest as they possibly can be.
ADHDers, like any segment of society are a mixed bag so if it seems like I sing their praises at times, I'm specifically talking about the ones I've come into contact with via support groups, some of whom are good friends now. There are also complete jerks who have ADHD, and I haven't come across many of these but just want to acknowledge that they do exist, I'm not making out like "all ADHD people are lovely people who just have an unfortunate neurological condition"
But anyway, the ones I know genuinely are lovely people, and that comes across most consistently when they're actually aware of their ADHD, and around people who actually understand the way it affects us not just on the surface symptoms, but the way living with it for a lifetime affects our behaviour (e.g. some people think RSD isn't so much an innate ADHD symptom so much as a result of having spent a lifetime taking in the reactions of other people to our ADHD behaviours)
Honesty is a lot harder when we feel like there's a need for a facade, and frankly that's the majority of the time (or at least has been, there's been a lot more of a move towards open-ness around ADHD symptoms recently what with the big uptick in awareness of ADHD, particularly since COVID). The trouble is that we know deep down that we're a good person, but we also know that our inconsistent ability to control our impulses doesn't portray that very well, so we feel a need to keep those failures hidden, usually with a genuine intention to "get better in future" or "make up for this later", because we genuinely, genuinely don't want to be the way we are.
There's a distinct disconnect between intention and action, that I think is probably hard for a neurotypical to understand. It's a bit like, if you drive an NT person absolutely to their limit, and they just lose it and do stuff they wouldn't do normally - imagine having that level of poor impulse control, but even when emotionally you feel fine, all the time. It's horrible to have everyone see you that way - like we've alluded to before, at least partly because we live under neurotypical expectations - so we just get used to sweeping stuff under the rug in the hope that it either goes away or we can deal with it later.
This isn't every ADHDers story but the vast, vast majority of us will relate to this in some way. My best friend with ADHD actually, told me some very strange lies when we first started talking, basically to portray her situation in what she thought would be a slightly more favourable light in my eyes - but it didn't really cause a great deal of drama because the untruths weren't really of any real consequence to me, and I understood that she wasn't really trying to deceive me, so much as she knew she was a good person deep down and wanted me to believe that rather than judge her based on her situation, if that makes any sense? I don't know if it does make a lot of sense lol. This is very different to dishonesty in the context of a marriage
I think before we can be really honest with ourselves as well, let alone others we really need to fully come to terms with our ADHD. For a long time I genuinely expected I was just waiting to "grow up" and that it would happen to me at some point, or that I was on the brink of finding the trick to being a consistent person - or I promised myself that I was going to change, and that I really meant it this time, it was going to happen. We really need to understand what our limits are because, again, living under neurotypical expectations teaches us that we could be better if we just tried harder. Until we understand this, we don't really have the tools to be honest with ourselves so it's almost impossible to be honest with anyone else - best we can do is "I don't know why I am the way I am or what I need to do", which is really hard to admit
Thank you
Submitted by Swedish coast on
Dave, I really appreciate your presence on the forum. You spend time kindly adding your perspective to a hurt group of non-ADHDers, and add to my understanding. I realize many non stories are not complimentary to ADHD and I acknowledge your always friendly approach.
The ADHD people I know are generally very kind, profound, and also deeply loyal. My husband is a good person. I think that is why I have such trouble piecing it all together. The psychologist said yesterday I had been manipulated, and I think it's true. But my ex husband probably hasn't had ill intent when he's hid behind acts. I assume he's been confused, desperate, exhausted. The first 20 years of our life together he was undiagnosed, and he has severe ADD plus a hard childhood plus in recent years burnout and depression. He is also brilliant in his line of work, sought after, recommended. He is also a deeply committed father. I can't get this jigsaw to make sense.
Right now I struggle with the moral aspects of our disastrous divorce and whether his treatment of me is in any way acceptable. Mostly not, in the non universe. Maybe in an ADHD universe. And will I then ever be able to be friends with him again?
I think you're right in that honesty requires some control over our own lives. That's what I meant by luxury, like something you can afford when other necessary things in your life are in place.
My partner of two decades sacrificed me to save himself. But I was always stronger than him.
This morning I dreamt about Anne Frank. The person who betrayed Anne Frank's family and caused their death was the family's friend, I've read. But because that person was trying to save their own family. Morality is not always straightforward.
Dave!
Submitted by honestly on
I totally agree! Dave you are amazing- there's so much hurt and anger here and you show up with patience and calm and genuinely try to explain.
on the other hand, i think if I'd just found out someone I'd just met had told me a pack of lies to make themselves look good, I'd not pursue that relationship any further. There's a basic 'how do I trust a word you're saying' issue. I'm maybe freakishly honest but it would really be a huge red flag for me.
two aspects
Submitted by honestly on
My DX OH straightup lies to me; full on saying the thing that isn't true. I hate it. Then there's another side to this which is that language doesn't seem to have the same weight for him that it does for me. I don't mean he's joking; he'll agree something with me (eg to cut down on alcohol) and do the opposite (get hammered) and act like the agreement wasn't much of a thing. Or he'll ask me to pick up something from the shop, list a few chocolate bars, and I'll come back with whatever I could get, and he'll say 'Oh but I don't like that.' and at my bafflement - he just asked for them - he'll say 'Oh it was just an expression.'. This is quite trivial but it extends more widely to how we agree to live, what we agree is important and how we're going to do it. He just doesn't seem to think what we say to each other matters that much. It's like a balloon we bat around, not an exchange of thoughts and feelings.
That’s strange
Submitted by Swedish coast on
Especially the chocolate bar thing is so strange! I like the balloon analogy. Incomprehensible behavior. I'm sorry you have had to navigate around this, it must be very difficult.
The agreement out the window thing, sadly, is more familiar to me.
it’s so strange!
Submitted by honestly on
and so is your situation. It does feel like language is weighted differently for people with ADHD; I wonder if it's connected to poor memory- they might mean it for a moment but it doesn't really settle? (though he clearly never meant it re the chocolate bar)
I was also not honest
Submitted by BurnedOutLady on
I just had a long conversation with my ADHD husband who has moved out. It took days to get to where I could coax him into talking with me. Finally I ended up being able to explain in detail how the stress of his constant mess had been building up within me. He said, I didn't know it bothered you that much. Which is insane on the face of it. But anyway, I told him that recently I had just stopped talking to him about it because it's too difficult to do so. And this is the problem with the RSD, which stops any kind of constructive conversation. So I was essentially forced into being dishonest about my feelings, and he was all too happy to assume that I no longer had any, or I was "over it". But this was not true, my resentment was building to high levels. Now he understands. He apologized. But of course that won't change anything, and we are still living separately.
that’s also true!
Submitted by honestly on
When faced with RSD, and the fact that talking just does not work - when what you say doesn't get heard or acted on - it makes sense just to stop talking.
That is very understandable
Submitted by Swedish coast on
I can't see any moral flaw in your withheld criticism. You have mainly been trying to protect yourself from his reactivity.
I imagine that silence of yours is a serious sign your boundaries have been constantly invaded.
I think of you and hope for the very best.
Honesty has to be with self first
Submitted by Catterfly on
Hi Swedish Coast,
Everything you described is happening in my house, too.
Today my ADHD husband was on me for "not being able to keep friends". It's something he's brought up from time to time in our marriage because of a fallout I had with one of his friends - she sensed my anger towards him 13 years into an undiagnosed ADHD relationship, and justifiably (perhaps? Understandably at least) was furious with me.
What I realized today though is that I have lots of longtime friends that I cherish. I also have new friends even from this past year. They know me and him and our children and I value our time together, and we've had each others' backs. He, on the other hand, hasn't made any new friends since he was 14.
So I also realized for the first time that his lack of friends has to be blamed on me. Because his RSD and ADHD combined make it impossible for him to acknowledge that he may have some ownership over his own friendships, and hence some responsibility if he's not happy with them.
This is all to say that everything you posted resonates for me exactly. They have to be honest with themselves, stop scapegoating us for what's not working in their lives, and then perhaps they can start to be honest with us.
In this moment I'm not feeling optimistic that we can get there. But I am very proud of myself for finally setting some boundaries tonight and not taking the blame for his own personal shame. I literally told him that he is responsible for his own friendships, and I will not take any more blame for him not contacting them for years.
Giant hugs. You're not alone.
Further to my last comment
Submitted by Catterfly on
Another thing I've realized is that I approach all relationships with a couple of fundamental assumptions. One is that people will be honest. Another is that people are generally thinking and considering what they say, and choosing their words carefully.
It has slowly dawned on my that this is not true for my husband. His words are chosen strictly on avoidance of fear and shame. He doesn't take my feelings into account at all.
So with that as his criteria, why would he ever be honest? That's not even seen as a value.
:(
Thank you Catterfly
Submitted by Swedish coast on
For both your posts above. It does make sense - depressing as it is - that language and actions chosen primarily to avoid admitting their own dysfunction can be a big part of not acting honestly. I feel a chill down my spine at "he doesn't take my feelings into account at all". It makes for a very poor treatment of the non spouse, doesn't it...
I hadn't thought of this. It makes sense. It's not very attractive or easy to excuse. Morally, I'd say it's less than ideal.
Im proud of you too for refusing to take responsibility for his social passivity. ADHD can isolate an entire family socially and make the non spouse's interactions with others very awkward. I'm glad you have your own friends.
Fear and shame
Submitted by Swedish coast on
"His words are chosen strictly on avoidance of fear and shame."
I return to this and it seems to answer the question I've been struggling with. It's so well put.
It's been years since my ex husband had anything to offer me, but I didn't stop caring for him because of that. It baffles me that when the divorce was decided in order to save my health, he no longer felt he needed to care about my feelings. Apparently I was only important as a support system, not as a person.
All he cares about is probably to restore his self-respect and avoid fear and shame. He doesn't try to repair things with me so we can be friends.
It hurts an honest friend who thought this great effort I made was for love, and that bonds to those we love never really break.
this cut me deep too
Submitted by Off the roller ... on
This really caused me to pause and think. I might be in the same boat and it's really hard to come to terms with it (see my recent post on narcissim and sadness) because it forces me to face a very harsh reality: that perhaps my ADHD husband only loves me for as much as I can do/support for him. I'm feeding his supply of need.
Or -
is it that I've positioned myself in such a way to only offer my efforts for him to rely on?
Either way, it's not a healthy way to be for either of us.