My husband will not talk about his ADHD at all and seems to believe that taking medicine is the cure all. He is ashamed of his diagnoses, and I believe that prevents him from being able to even acknowledge how it affects his and our lives. It's been two years and after minimal adjustment of his meds, he thinks he is fine but really all it is doing is giving him more focus at work and tempering his moods somewhat. When he delays taking his meds there is a noticable darkening of his mood which improves upon taking his adderal and welbrutin, however he is still so mercurial that I get whiplash from his changing moods. He has always had a very short fuse, but after a brief period when the medication greatly improved his demeanor and outlook, it seems like he is back to the same old Dr Jeckll/Mr Hyde. One minute the funny and loveable man with whom I fell in love and the next a volatile jerk who ignores me even more because he is so focused on work, tv and/or the internet. I am so unable to cope with this that I finally found a new therapist and am desperately trying to stay married but the grass on the other side is looking ever so much greener...
There is never a good time to talk to him. If he is in a good mood, I don't want to capsize the boat, and if he is in a bad mood then I try to stay away. He started in on me for reading "self help books" and blaming his ADHD for what he clearly thinks is 100% my problem, and I eventually found myself screaming at him to read this book. Not my finest moment. He will not listen to my very rare and gentlest comments about how I'm not blaming him, it is his symptons which are controllable. I have read nearly every marriage book I could over the last 16 years, but now that I understand ADHD better, every lingering issue we have had makes perfect sense to me. I'm torn between feeling hopeful that we can be one of these success stories and have a happy marriage, instead of just happy moments, and feeling completely hopeless because I don't foresee him doing anything at all on his end.
He was diagnosed by his GP, and I have gone to him and discussed referring my husband to a psychiatrist. The trick is how to get him there without my husband knowing that I am behind it and becoming furious with me for going behind his back. He won't let me attend appointments with him and at this point doesn't even go see the doctor. He tells me when he is on his last pill or two and I have to deal with picking up and filling his Rx. The GP said he can tell him he needs to see him and will suggest referring him, but I know he will say everything is just fine, and he probably believes it is because shortly after every fight he asks me what's wrong with me. Completely surpised that I could be upset about anything, even if we had just finished discussing divorce.
I need to find the courage and a way to get through to him that I cannot live on this rollercoaster anymore. I still love him, but sometimes I think we'd be better off as friends and co-parents.
The perfect description!
Submitted by c ur self on
You couldn't have splained it any better:)....How many of us do you think (marriages w/ Non's and Adhder's in denial) are in your EXACT shoes, or have been?? LOL,... Your comment: "happy moments vs happy marriage", how many of us live this way everyday?? LOL...Yep you hit the nail with your head...:)
The only thing that has worked for me is to stop focusing on her. By doing this, we are starting to turn those moments into a much more peaceful and happy life. I'm learning to respect our differences, and stop living in the dream world that she can be the person I want her to be or even think she should be....She is who she, so I accept it....I know how you feel, you would love to engage him and expect him to hear you and understand you....And most of all you would give anything for him to show a little calm self-awareness....He may someday, but, probably because you decided to accept him and just know that because of the reality of his life, there will be many times (several in one day some times) nothing positive can come from engaging him w/ words...You've got to walk away...
The unhealthy things you don't like, you must refuse to ever be part of....(If I commented, it made me part of it) As long as I gave my W a target, she shot....By ignoring and not engaging, the only target she see's is in the mirror...It's definitely helped w/ awareness....For both of us:)
My wife doesn't take her adderall when she is off work much of the time....And she falls into that hyper-focus stupor I call it....Since I've learned to ignore (ignore means: comment on her actions, like she could do something different) her most of the time now, she is starting to respond w/ small self aware comments about her mind set, or maybe an action she knows I'm ignoring and just choosing to love her regardless....
I said something's to her several months ago, that has really hit home with her....Something J said about being a victim....J hasn't heard me say this, but, his comment really struck me...Because I was thinking like a victim also...:(.....I told my wife that there is no hope for a victim....
I decided I've got to many things to be thankful for and I wasn't going to let a victim mentality cause me any more suffering....Whether it was at my own hands or whether it was me trying to get someone else to see their problem....(which is still at my own hands)....There is a way to love our spouses fully and with our whole hearts, and be happy, regardless of add/ adhd...But, you have to be willing to let go, focus on yourself...Accept the facts of their lives....
Words, when spoken to a mind in denial only hinders this process....
Blessings lostmyself.....You're not the only one who has lostourselves.....But, there is a way to find us again......Just breathe!
C
C...You Called? LOL
Submitted by kellyj on
Actually....what you said was really valuable info for me too........My wife doesn't take her adderall when she is off work much of the time....And she falls into that hyper-focus stupor I call it....
I can't speak for everyone with ADHD.....but these "little ditty's" don't bother me at all....I actually liked that "hyper-focus stupor" part....that's a good one to remember. Call me a Masochists or what ever...but they actually help me remind myself of this since it's the part I can't see myself even though I know what it feels like.
And what it feels if I stop taking my Adderall for a day...is like being in a stupor! lol Part of what that really is...is a withdrawal symptom even though it's so slight that it's not like withdrawing from being a Meth addict. Ever so subtle....but yet, still there. It takes 2 + days to get that completely out of your system enough not to have that effect. Then it's just the normal hyper-focus stupor after that. lol
Just filling in the blanks here just so you know what you're seeing:)
J
Thanks...J
Submitted by c ur self on
I really don't mean any disrespect....Stupor, hung over, just terms, trying to draw a word picture.....
C
No Disrespect On My Account C
Submitted by kellyj on
I just realized something when I read your response C. Without knowing really anything about all the non-spouses here...I find myself in my thinking....treating those here as if they were my wife and always afraid of saying the wrong thing? And just so you now....this only keeps reafirming the same thing to me......denial all the way. Everything that you and Dede were discussing is the exact same thing I experience with my non-ADHD wife....but I'm not in denial so I don't mind talking about it or even poking fun at it a little as long as it's done with some tongue in cheek and not meant as a direct jab in a hurtful way. Not at all. So you might as well assume just the opposite of what you experience with your wife and just pretend I'm a non-ADHd spouse in a push situation ....even though I'm not. If that makes sense? No apologies needed....I do not see these things as a disrespect in fact....I use labels like this to help me identify things for myself as well. And usually they're are a lot more disrespectful than anything that you might come up just so you know. lol
Also....name calling or labeling hasn't really bothered me since I was in grade school so that's never been a real sore spot with me. I'm pretty immune.
J
Something I Just Thought Of ....C
Submitted by kellyj on
In light of the things you said here about denial....it occurred to my that I discovered something with my wife that might be helpful in applying what you are saying. That victim mentality it seems....is an on going never changing state of mind. The denial however.....is triggered and is not there all the time with my wife. It is a defense mechanism as my T explained it....so if you look at it that way...it comes and goes with those outburst episodes you were describing. My wife has begun talking about this stuff at times....to have confirmed this with me as well. As she calls it.....distortions from her point of view. At least with her.....she's not in that state all the time and can tell when she is....and when she is not.....but only after she comes back out of it and is not defensive anymore.
When we were at odds constantly....she was in this perpetual state of denial and irrational thinking which appeared to be a constant state. When she's relaxed and not defensive....she is pretty rational and her thought processes make a lot more sense. This is distinctly noticeable to me as well.
This may serve you in reminding yourself that's what you are seeing is a form of defensiveness when your wife really goes into her outbursts and denial. Also.....it may serve you to be aware (and not to assume) that your wife is like she gets 24/7. I've found that timing when we have our talks about anything related makes all the difference in the world in staying out of conflict.
Not assuming either way but if you hadn't really caught on to this....it was a really important discovery with my wife. Once she's triggered....I just have to wait for a better time and then things go much more smoothly every time I can do this with her but not avoid these topics entirely.
Timing is everything as it appears with denial. Not saying anything ever ( or being afraid to) did nothing to help either. I found just dropping a little firecracker on it instead of a H-bomb is a good approach and then letting it sit and percolate without actually talking about it. This really works and my wife seems to respond to that. The victim thing however....seems to have a life of it's own. If that's any help?
J
Great stuff J and so true...
Submitted by c ur self on
The problem for some of us is the denial state is perpetual. It can lie dormant when life is going in a way that the person in denial thinks it should....This type person will most always act out, seek to change or control any situation they can't understand or perceive as good in their eyes....They can change once they are convinced they are wrong, but, learned behaviors aren't so easily corrected in adults....
In my case for instance much of my difficulty coping with my wife's living of life stems from my own knowledge, (and lack there of), view points and just the trial and error's that has taught me what produces a peaceful life.
I wasn't capable of accepting two things....Keeping it simple here:) One, that I could not change her with words or actions in the time frame I expected (impatient, because I was dependent on a faulty source, MY MIND).....And two; I didn't know how to move on and experience a peaceful life and accept her like she is and not let my emotions or love for her not be hindered....My trust was in US and I was a VICTIM! So my misguided affections made me a hopeless case....Until I got my affections focused in the right place, and became thankful for the gift of HER!, and not my expectation for her.....
Much of what you said above about denial and how conflict trigger's it, is so true....Or at least my experience says you are right....But, that is also what lostmyself was saying about "moments of happiness vs a happy marriage".....No one wants denial; which, destroys the limited ability some of us already experience in our efforts to communicate...Denial in this setting closes a person's hearing receptors off....Thus making words just more gas for the fire....Denial is and always will be the victor, until we can see it our own lives......
Thank you from the bottom of my heart for indirectly pointing out to me what it looks like....
Your a good man J
C
Back At You My Freind....
Submitted by kellyj on
I had some thoughts on this after I wrote you. It's so hard to tell exactly what is really happening in the exchanges people talk about here at time. From the adversity I had in my own beginnings with a mind controller for a father.....I did learn some valuable lessons in how to deal with a person on that level....that took the results of that experience to being weaker and defenseless against someone like this....and taking what you learned or even the skills you developed from that kind of abuse....and using it to your advantage when trying to apply it to things like denial in a person even if they aren't doing the same things exactly. Gaslighting for example was what I grew up with and I had to fight against it and learn ways around it just to remain intact. What makes you weak...makes you even stronger in this case. I'm a veteran of that philosophy and had to pay a high price to get there.
Here are some tips for you or anyone else that might be interested. I think the same things apply to denial as well.
I see the denial in the grieving process as a temporary state as a means to protect yourself. This might make a person temporarily go in and out like my wife. With here....it's all defensive mostly ...and not wanting to look at IT....even though she has components or habits that she learned in doing some of these things the other way which is...............
Denial as a chronic state of mind..... originates from a false belief. That belief may serve to protect one self....but what they are protecting themselves from is seeing the truth. That's the goal not just not wanting to look at it. If looking at it is so painful that you can't bear to even see a glimpse of it....that steps things up a bit to a higher level of denial I think.
Another way to say it..... the ability to make up any story to fit the moment...and believe it is true. This sounds more like your wife from the things you've said. And my wife as I said....is resistant or just not wanting to look at it. Why do you think I am so quick to see these things? I was trained to see them for my own self detriment....but turned around....it works the other way. I learned to be this way so a person doing this could not get away with it. That's a learned skill...not one you are born with I think.
I think this is what you are experiencing C? If that's the case....here's some things to look out for and keep an eye on.
Telling you....how you think, how you feel and what you are doing....that is different than what you believe you think, feel or what you are doing. Those accusations or even more subtle....implying or insinuating. Any time you start questioning yourself...is a big red flag right there. If everything you say comes back to you as just the opposite: contrary, in opposition to, disagreement, disputing facts of evidence, needing to be right or accusing you of doing what they're doing and your not....is all projection and part of that story they've convinced themselves is true....but it isn't.
Very good at pointing out what everyone is doing wrong.....but not for themselves. They will accuse you of always having to be right....but what they are doing is refusing to be wrong. ( to maintain their false belief) Look out for refusing to be wrong. That's different than needing to be right and they will do that too. Mostly in an argument....they will tell you what you are doing...that's the biggest one. That not blaming necessarily...that's just telling you what you are doing. This is what my wife tries to do and I absolutely will not listen to a word of it. That laundry list and the play action instant reply..... is exactly what she is doing. Basically....going back over what just happened in the entirety and making you listen to the her version of it in order to replace yours with hers. Nice try....that doesn't work with me. I immediately turn and walk out pf the room.
She'll say that I rude....but I am not rude at all. She says I'm rude...to prevent me from being that way because she really is rude and this is what everyone else see's at time. Including me. Again nice try......at times when she insists on making her listen to her entire story for the 10th time from start to finish and I've asked her not to......I'll snap my fingers hard and look the other direction and away from her and point directly at her face (like a gun) like I am accusing her of something. This is startling when someone does this to you. I know....I had it done to me to control me and in this extreme case....fighting fire with fire this wat takes her completely off guard and I don't have to say a word. She knows when I do that...that she better not continue. Not because I'm a threat....but she knows from the past this means...."either be fully accountable...or shut the Fuck Up. What she knows will come next is the threat to her in a different way. I'll tear her story apart with logic and truth instead of trying to convince her of anything. I'll just drag that horse right to the trough and put it in front of her face. I don't try and make her drink it....or even convince her that she should or that I am right. But she better have her ducks in a row and not start making illogical statements or I will hit her with so much logic it will make her head spin. That just the point.....she's trying to convince me I'm wrong or telling me she's right...by accusing me of always needing to be right...so I will not keep trying to be. That way....she will never be put in a position of having to defend her made up story to go along with her made up belief. But in her case I fully believe....those beliefs weren't hers....they were her mothers in doing this the other way. And as I see myself....my of the false beleifs that i beleived were my made of story....they were my fathers and I just believed him no matter what he'd say.
Ah Ha. I believed him no mater what he'd say. And to do that....he make you question yourself enough...not to believe yourself so he could get away with making you beleive anything he wanted no mater what that was in the moment to serve him in some way.
So if you look at that last statement....and you look at what I did with my wife in my moment of rudeness (lol)...I didn't want anything from here. I wasn't trying to be right or fighting her that....and I wasn't necessarily trying to convince her of anything. I wasn't invested what so ever in my story or even what it was. My entire focus and the only purpose of doing that....was to stop her each time she'd pull one of those OH so familiar methods out on me and hit her the irrefutable truth and just leave it there.
The word NO....and the irrefutable truth are deadly weapons against this offensive defense.( this kind of denial based on a false belief that they must maintain at all costs ) It's the only way that a person can do this and why this just happens. It can be intentional though and that's where it gets really sketchy. If you aren't trying to win, or convince them, or change their mind and completely don't care if they believe you or not....you're golden.
Knowing that you are right and not saying it and just stopping them with the truth put right in front of them and walking away leaves that denial no where to go along with the made up story. With my wife....she will just walk out or refuse to talk anymore when the truth is all that's left.
The sketchier version and someone who does this with intention I think has the same litmus test however....instead of what my wife does and just shuts down with a lack of an answer....(which is true or she wouldn't do this)...the more offensive, destructive and intentional version person...will fly into a rage when led to the trough and they have to look at it and you just walk away. That was my father...and the reason he did this was his play didn't work. Once he ran put of plays in his play book....raging and attacking you never failed to do the job however.....even when that happened.....I still wasn't buying what he was saying. I had my own thoughts and I refused to give them up to him.
Like in that video I included in here some where from Goodwill Hunting with Matt Damon..
."your choice...the belt or the wrench?
"Fuck it....give me the wrench!" I'm keeping my own thoughts and beliefs in fair trade and you'll have to do better than a wrench before you can make me believe what is not true is. And you wonder why I'm stubborn? lol
When you learn from the best...anyone else doing this is child's play. I know exactly what to look for and can jump on BS in a heart beat. But not manipulate or get anything....only to stop a person doing this from doing it anymore. They'll run out of road with no where to go.
And I'm NOT saying this because I'm proud of it like I said....I paid such a high price to get that skill and I only use it to fight against the things that cause me to suffer so much. " Nice shoot'in solider....but two can play at that game! " lol
I think this is the attitude you need to adopt as well? This isn't being confrontation,contrary, adversarial, needing to win or be right or any of the accusations they are actually throwing at you and accusing you of doing that your NOT doing. That's the bait....don't take it. It only has one and only one purpose for me doing this.... and that's to stop or prevent them from continuing to do this....through the back door instead of fighting them in front like they want. Just remember....do the opposite of what they want by reisisting it this way and they've got nothing.
Like they say....we train others how to treat us. This is more like denial boot camp but it is effective. lol
I'm not advising you do this either C....it took a lifetime to learn how to do this well and I had a very good teacher although in his case....for the wrong reason and he wanted something from you....to control your thoughts and mind. I just want the denial to stop and I'm just fine thanks...in fact....I don't want to do this at all and I get nothing from it myself (except a head ache lol)....but it did serve the purpose of leaving my wife no other choice but to look at her denial if these techniques she learned prevented her from doing that.the trough and then drink from it after she started to die of thirst.
And the only point in showing you this is just to help you spot them too. (these denial maintaining techniques ) What you do with that will be up to you:)
Remember....irrefutable truth...and then say nothing or walk away. But you got to know what that is and be absolutely sure you right before you do. Arguing on religious beliefs pretty much shoots this method out of the water since....you can't prove it because it[s based on belief and faith itself. Stay on earth if you're going to do that for now all things considered. Just a heads up on that one. That's all you have to remember really. The reaction from that is the most telling thing of all. At first....when I did that.....my wife would say "I hate you" when she would run out of road. "Well of course you do....I not an enabler!" lol
J
Yep, I got those I hate you's when I first learned to walk away.
Submitted by c ur self on
You basically just put into words my wife and I's interactions for the majority of our 8 year marriage....Your statement that denial is basically masking the truth from one's self, could not be more on target in my humble opinion...
So armed with this knowledge I've had to ask myself this question....Do you really want to find way's around dysfunctional situation's or can you calmly walk away??
Before I had this knowledge, I always choose the first option out of ignorance, hard headedness and a false sense of self worth for a long time....Then I came to myself, and realized what the real truth was about myself and my W....But, I was unable to find within myself the courage to walk way and let the chips fall where they may. When push came to shove, i would cave...But I've finally lately been able to walk way with no negative thoughts, but only that there is something much greater than myself that will continue to expose us and leads us into real truth.
Truth that's eternal and no matter which way you shake it, it never fails.....I'm seeing the positive results in my life and my W's by letting go....
thanks friend....
C
Nipping It In the Bud...C
Submitted by kellyj on
You know...it is both...really interesting to here how this plays out the same from one person to the next....and I feel your pain all at the same time. lol
In my run down of possible suggestions and how I know that .....I did have a head start with my wife as I have said a number of times in warning her about ME...and the challenges she faced but at this time.....I think that went in one ear and out the other.. As I have come find out anyway the same as you. And yes....just one more confirmation to validate what I am seeing too.
Just you know or anyone else who read my posts....the vast majority of what I learned was from my therapist. I try and quote him as often as I can so it doesn't sound like this is all coming from me or somehow I figured this out on my own. To the contrary.....he was the one who shed the light on this stuff and now I'm just trying to apply it and use what he taught me. I wouldn't feel as confident in saying most of the things here if it weren't that way.
And it took him telling me and re-explaining this stuff a number of times before it finally really started making sense....and to the point....I remember him telling me after I was divorced and was single for a while when I asked him how I would be able to use this new knowledge on myself with someone else before hand.....his answer? You can't. You just have to be in a relationship to really apply it. Boy was he right!
Test of fire again my friend...but to say....my T is batting 1000 so far...it's really starting to pay off.
And to say that this is probably the only reason why I was able to spot this so early and not let it go too far. But even then....I had to wait long enough to start seeing the patterns before I could do anything about it...the rest, was on the fly just like you. Remember....I was spinning my wheels all over the place trying to figure out what my wife was doing? Seeing is believing....we humans do act in some very predictable ways regardless.
The good news is.....this time, I could see it to nip it in the bud. I've been called every name in the book and accused of doing everything under the sun....that I didn't do?
What I did do was hold my ground and stay that way. What I did wrong at first.....was just try and be reasonable. Also....what I know about myself and have known all my life is.....being fair and equitable has never been a problem for me so being told that I was selfish for wanting an honest answer or called names for wanting her to be accountable for her actions....or...."I hate you" for walking away from someone who won't let you get a word in edge wise.....made absolutely no sense at all.
And thank God that I knew as much about my ADHD as I did. Every time she would try and sneak that one in to blame me for something went no where fast! I shut that down immediately too.
The part of this my wife cannot see and I can is.....she was left to fend for herself and her little brother while her mom was off finding her next new boyfriend in some bar. When my wife told me a story once...of how her and her brother use to play shuffle board in a Tavern when she was really little I went ...huh? "How did you end up in a Tavern with your brother at age 7 and 8 years old?".
"Oh...my mom took us there".... while she was with (some guy) that she knew? I just found out from her brother a week ago that the two of them had gone to over 20 different schools growing up since her Mom kept moving them to where ever her next husband was? Damn! It's a dog eat dog world at that age and every child for themselves under those conditions. I have a great deal of compassion and respect for the fact that my wife has managed to make it through with the qualities that I Love about her so much. What she doesn't understand and cannot see yet....was how she was born in second place to her mothers needs and interests and was never first when she was growing up. That'll do it to you.
And the way her mom went about making her believe she had no value or self worth was by doing it this very way and eroding all her self confidence was by tearing her down and chipping away at her to get her own needs met first....always! That's how she did it....Gaslight-er extraordinaire!
The most interesting thing about how this plays out with me and all the things she's said? She say she hates me....that I'm selfish....or that I am always proving to her that I cannot be relied on (using the ADHD to get there)....but I've never heard her say that about her own mother once.
That's her denial. she transfers what she cannot look at with her mother.....onto the next person who is expected to do more than she ever had but blames them for the reason she feels reacts so hostilely when ever that person disappoints her in any way znc blames the person who is trying so hard to give her what she wants.....instead of the only person who is responsible for how she feels and why she gets so angry and upset of these little things sometimes.
What I know for sure because of this....her denial....her intolerance to disappointment, her impatience and short frustration fuse level...and always feeling short changed and then so quick to anger because of it....has nothing to do with me.
And because I went through my own version of this.....I also know that it's exactly the same thing with my wife yet....she still can't be angry or upset with her mother and still holds that her mother loved her the best she could.
And my T told me once.....that every child abused adult who walks into his office says exactly the same thing. "My mother/father loved me"...and are very sure that they did.
Guess what? I did the same thing until he was able to show me....why that wasn't true.
Like I said.....Denial is a belief of something that isn't true...and to protect that belief....they end up hurting other people instead of putting the blame where it really lies. But in order to do that.....they would have to admit those parts about themselves and deep down some where in there.....they know it isn't true but they just can't look at it.
It's also why that when I call her on this stuff in way to make her look at herself....will eventually register that it isn't me doing this to her. The damage was done a long time ago from a mother who loved her self more than anyone else....but convinced her own children that she loved them more and always put them first....and they believed her and still do up to a point. My wife goes back and forth but she still can't admit it to herself yet. All I can do is hold a mirror up to her behavior and keep doing that until she sees herself instead of me. The day she see's her mother in that mirror....will be the day she will no longer be in denial. Her mother did this so well....she convinced that the things that she does....are not really all that bad...in fact.....there's nothing wrong with it. ( never can admit being wrong? ) There you go C.
What I said.....Look out for "never being wrong" or admitting if you are...not always needing to be right. Ironically....this is also what I have been accused of and it's the compliment to the other side of that. Apply what I just said....and I think you will see the reason why?
My singular goal with us over time....is getting her to see her mothers face in that mirror....instead of mine. She tells me that when I ever I have brought this up to her.....that I'm an asshole for doing it and to never bring her mother into anything between the two of us. Her mother taught her that one too. To protect her and shield her from all the persecutors out there all trying to get her. I'm in that picture that her mother taught her to see and the BIG LIE as the entire story she heard from her mother.
Right now.....THE BIG LIE is that story that keeps running in her head and why she can't see anything else due to the success that a master Gaslighter can do to a Childs mind like this.
And to be honest.....I never liked her mother from the first day I met her. I got that funny feeling inside that was telling me I was right and I should listen.
My wife is a wonderfully caring lady with many great qualities. How she got that way.....I have no idea? It certainly wasn't from her mothers example. Those parts ( that example and model of a good mother who put her children needs first before her own) is why my wife can't see anything wrong with behaving the same way at times despite all the wonderful qualities that her mother never had.
As I'm seeing this....I giving the boot to her mother since...she has no business in our marriage or anywhere near it...in it....or even close to it.
Yooooooooooouuuur.....Out'a here!!! lol (Throw Mama's Ghost Right out that window!) She's dead anyway....but still living inside my wife and she needs the boot! In a loving and compassionate way of course....not the way she got in there in the first place. And she thinks I'm the hostile interloper. Ha!
J
Just curious
Submitted by jennalemone on
J, just for my own curiosity. What is it about your wife/life that is making you WANT to work, delve, understand, try THIS time? What it is that is different for you to work so hard on THIS time? Do you think you could have made it work with your previous relationships with the information/understandings you have now? OR is the difference that your present spouse inspires in you the motivation to care to work at it? In a nutshell.....is it HER or is it YOU and your experiences? Let me know for my own benefit. I am thinking that my spouse and I just don't have the innate chemistry, or passion, or fear or respect, or energy, or ownership, or motivation, or allure to make him (or me) WANT to participate (work) enough.
Jenna
Submitted by kellyj on
When I first got married in my twenties...for a brief and not so fulfilling relationship...I had fulfilled myself to the point of doing everything that I wanted to do as a single person and was ready to settle down as they say. I felt complete and whole and was not really needing to get married for any other reason that to create a new family. My own family in that sense.....whether I had children or not. My story up to that point...seemed complete and I was ready to write a new one with someone else. I was ready....but my first wife was not.
I don't really count that experience as being married since it wasn't. It was me picking the wrong person and believing the same thing that I am talking about with my wife now. I believed the Big Lie that I was taught to believe and then I believed that person who convinced me she was that person by telling me she was and was very insistently (demandingly )and then by ultimatum...that we get married even though my gut was telling me something was wrong. But I did it anyway....because I had been taught not to trust my gut....and believe a person who should not be believed or trusted. That person was just a wild child who had not idea or concept of what a marriage is. I think ...she thought it sounded good or was part of her dream again and I was just plugged into that fantasy and needing someone to plug into that fariy tale. As it tunred out after not very long....her fairy tale was not playing out the way it should so she met someone else and ran off with him into the sunset and left me sitting there going...."what just happened?" I found out later.....there was no sunset after all. She left that guy for someone else (she told me so later when she tried to come to me on a rebound saying he was "as dumb and a box of rocks"...."nice, you sure can pick 'em and....nice try"). She's still somewhere out there..... still single and chasing after a fariy tale instead of realty.....moving all over the country and I have never heard hide nor hair of here since....poof! I had to find her once years later to sign over an old title from a car she left behind (abandoned with me) and lost her trail after tracking her to over 4 different states ranging from New York, Texas, Colorado, California and Oregon. I believe very much....she was a different version of my wife mother. This is why I don't count this as a marriage. It was only on paper for a brief time. There was no marriage and further....my gut didn't trust her.....by I believed what she told me and believed that she was telling me the truth because I needed to believe the Big Lie more than I needed to believe in myself. The Big Lie was preventing me from seeing the truth right in front of my face yet.....I was blind to it.
This was my mistake...not the woman who I chose to sign a contract with and believe just because she said so and demanded I do or she would break up with me. But hey....the party was a good one for a while....if that was your goal? It wasn't mine....but obviously...it was for the person who was really great fun, awesome sex and knew how to have a good time. Thinking back for myself....."what more could you ever ask for right??" lol I was the idiot....not my first "experience" as I call it. But what made me the idiot....was not my fault. The fault of how I got there...was being deceived by the Big Lie that ended up allowing me to make that bad choice after all. It was my choice....no one put a gun to my head you know?
And then.....I did a different version of that with who I call my ex wife. She was a "real wife" and we had a "real marriage" ....but as my T said to me..."she couldn't do it.....she fell off the wagon and returned to being a child again and I couldn't get her to change her mind and think any differently." Different version......strike two. The Big Lie was already starting to dissapear by then and when that happened (again)...by the end of it.....The Big Lie had some gaping holes in it and I was already seeing through it to the other side...but I still needed some work to get there.
That's what continuing on with therapy did for me. It got me there and I went through the Big Lie to the other side and could see my life and how I got there and all the ways in which I had been deceived by the Big Lie. Once you see it.....there is no going back.
And my wife now has her own version of this story. She's been married before and has her stories to tell. She's learned the hard way...that what she believed mostly....was not true either except....for the Big Lie. She still believes in the Big Lie and that's how I see her today. The really the only thing wrong with her story actually....but her story is still flawed and has some gaping holes in it.... yet, she can peek through to the other side like I saw myself in the past. She's not blind completely......only in One eye you might say.
And using that metaphor.....she needs an eye opener and whether I like it or not....or wanted that responsibility.....but I need to be that eye opener for her.....not her other eye for her .....like she keeps trying to use me for. That's not my job.... and it's not my responsibility however....but I also see her trying very hard....working and doing the work....but still not there yet but wanting to be. Until she gets there.....she's still going to blame me for what she can't see because of this one eye problem she has. What do you want from nothing.....rubber biscuits? lol
And staying in this metaphor for a moment.....what am I going to do about that? Poke her in that eye with a blunt stick? Pick the crying baby up with a pitch fork and throw her in the fire? Or help her to see out of her bad eye? That's my choice..... but as I see it from my own personal perspective.....it's also my responsibility to her to do things to help her even if it's at a cost to me to do this. I will get something out of it for sure.....but not until I get there.....just like before and with anything else. You've got to do the work and prove it.....Test of 'Fire.
And even if she chooses to walk away.....I still get something out of it no matter what if I pass that test. That's the only motivation I need to keep doing it and nothing else. Faith in myself is all I need to do it. Keeping the faith is what I need to make sure I do no matter what and keep listening to what my gut tells me to do. We're all walking into pitch blackness in that respect and we have no idea where we're going if you can't believe in the direction your going and know without a doubt its at least the right path you know? We're all the same in that way even though....you'll get those who will argue that if they cannot see what I'm saying. My wife is still seeing it differently but that only out of that One bad eye she has. That One bad eye I equate to the "all seeing...all knowing eye." Right. Give me a break Mama....all she could see was the inside of her colon. That was the path into darkness she was on. lol
What my wife needs is help....not someone to do these things for her and being an enabler on my part in just doing nothing and allowing her to stay that way That would easy for me to do..... but it would also be the disrespectful and negligent thing to do by my partner and myself at the same time. If I want a child as a partner that is....and in that respect....who remains dependent on me because of that one bad eye that is still her mothers eye obscured by fece's.....(remember....her mother was a grown, irresponsible infant and was ignorant of what it was to be an adult until the day she died) I wouldn't need to do what I am doing at all and stay right where I am.
But my gut tells me my wife is not her mother. My gut believes her when she says so. And my gut is telling me this is the right thing to do. I don't have a crystal ball....but my gut is telling me each step of the way....that what I'm doing is right and to continue doing it. Only time will tell with the faith in myself to get me there....that's all I really know. When it comes to my wife and what she says.....I take the part the one good eye sees.....and throw the rest out the window with her dead mother.
Does she like it when I do that? What do you think? Not so much and I get the blame for that part....this is clear to me now. This is the hard road and it's not easy. It's taken it's toll....but I've been here before. What I have...is what I've learned...and the faith and belief in myself and what I believe in. Not what someone else has told me and I just went along with it. This is not what I'm doing anymore at all. The Big Lie is not longer standing in my way and I can see clearly with both eyes wide open. If I have any responsibility to myself.....it's to stay that way no matter how hard my wife tries to replace my good eyes.....with her one bad one. And it's my responsibility to my wife....not to allow her to do that. That by choice and it's my choice. That how I see this with what I now believe is true. The only choice I have in front of me is to either do it....or not....and I choose to do it until the day my wife makes it impossible for me to do that any more. If that day ever comes....I will walk away. I owe that to myself....because of the Love I have for not just my wife....but for me at the same time. Eyes wide open.
And in my more commonly use vernacular and how I talk to myself about this to my wife in my head? "Get you shit together boy....and pull your head out of your ass will you?" Either she responds or not.....all I can do is ask.....I can't force her to do anything she doesn't want and she is free to leave and walk out the door at any time and I will wish her well on her life and only want good things for her if that's her choice....but....nothing she does either way is going to change the course I'm on which I'm doing for myself (and for us at the same time) looking at it from that perspective.
If I want her to follow me down that road with me.....I have to set an example for her that she never had which means....I have to be the ball and lead her down that path fighting kicking and screaming if I have to since that's the responsibility I have taken on whether I like it or not. ( and along with it.....whether she likes it or not) I don't like it and it's not fun.....but no one ever promised me a rose garden and I never asked for one and don't need one either. I see that clearly as well. Cowboy up!
I hope that answers your question? If it doesn't....I will be glad to fill in any where I need to:)
J
PS What I know for sure....is that I'm not expecting anything from my wife....that I haven't done myself. This I know for sure from experience. I don't need to trust my gut on that much.
The Big Lie
Submitted by jennalemone on
J, Can you put into words what the Big Lie is?
The Big Lie
Submitted by kellyj on
Believing some about yourself....that is not true.
Further...how you came to believe this is more important. If what you were told to believe, is not true....and you believe it....it will cause you to behave as if it were. The thinking...is what's broken....not you.
And if it's wrong.....what are you going to do about?
J
PS Hint: ADHD....does not cause thinking
Re: the big lie
Submitted by Zapp10 on
I agree completely.......as this is where I am at with H.
Our "discussions" have been less about the ADD and more about looking at our own individual mindsets. Because I have been doing this for months(with more to go) I have realized so much about myself....why I believed what I believed, thought what I thought...blah, blah, blah. There has been A LOT of discussion here on these forums about this being a starting place for the non especially.......as in get a grip on your own reality. What a journey......and how hard it was to stop thinking about your immediate situation and go back to who you were BEFORE your spouse. I don't regret it for one minute....no matter the outcome of the marriage.
I believe it was Jenna who referenced her T wanting her to delve into her childhood and because she thought it was basically good she didn't see the point....but she did it and discovered so much about her thinking. I have that post copied off and read it often. This helps me focus on my part in things. No blaming on either side. Has actually HELPED me stop blaming period.
This process is really about(to me) going somewhere you don't think you need to go and tossing yourself back there to see what unfolds. So we delay it with all sorts of excuses(cause we are so DARN smart) and life stays the SAME!
It's the good, the bad, the ugly of our "young" existence. What would have been really detrimental is if I had NOT done that. It has benefited EVERY relationship I have.
I have long believed that H's ADD simply add's to difficulties that are there for OTHER reasons.....while complicating a few. And while his father obviously had it H also had a mother who influenced him. It did not take me long to "see" there was a strange dynamic in that marriage and family. Of course, that was them and so long as it didn't show up in my marriage....fine with me. Well....HELLO!!!.......and here we are.
If there is one thing that is NOT going to happen .......it's H "looking in a mirror". His decision/choice......which leaves me with a decision/choice for me. I am good with that.......and had I not taken "the BIG lie" journey" I would be basing my decision on my own ignorance. Now my decision is well more informed and true. I say that H won't look in the mirror, not as my opinion.....it is what HE says and has said for many, many years. This, I do not believe, is ADD. However, WHATEVER it is.....for me, faking marriage is NOT something I can do to save someone's pride. At some point my life has to matter........and it all boils down to........when.......not if.
Clearing up the muddy water Zapp.....
Submitted by c ur self on
I like what you're saying here....So many marriages seem to end with a lot of unanswered questions. So many seem to end with negative emotions as the reality vs calm reason's why we are going our separate ways...I know many times one partner is calm and the other may not be. Not everyone views marriage as a life time commitment between the two. And many just seem to quit on the work it takes to be a loving responsible spouse, if they really ever knew. Which, I personally think is the real problem for many.
A person gets married for selfish reason's and never honor's their vows to their spouse, until the one trying loose's hope and walks away...It's usually very easy to tell the freeloader in these situations...They become all pitiful and want to turn over a new leaf all of a sudden, after they have destroyed all the feelings their spouse ever had for them....
We are products of our past, and until (and if) we are able to become aware and move past it (healing) we, and those closest to us can really suffer. We just need to make sure we go to right source for our answers...
Blessings Zapp, and thanks for sharing your story
C
Re: muddy waters
Submitted by Zapp10 on
Thank YOU, C. I believe we were put here warts and all to strive towards ALL we can be by a loving merciful God. Our journey "sifts" us, with good and bad. We grow and learn then grow some more and learn some more. And we will continue to do so til we die(whew!)
My hearts desire is NOT to end this marriage. For me, I need steadiness with an occasional roller coaster....not the opposite. I am not made that way nor can I re-invent who God made me at heart. I don't want my H to do the same( be some one he is not.) I do believe that marriage is a priority. Not just to one but both and a common understanding of the word priority needs to be maintained among a whole bunch of other stuff.
I have felt for a long time that his ego is at stake( you have no idea how hard it is to even express that) Denial on my part? That pride is over riding in all this? It makes me sad.....for him. But I do see that his pride is not my problem....it is HIS.
I would rather let him be.....he is quite happy and content....and remove myself as the "thorn in his side". And I am always hopeful he will see the merit of spending our lives being productive, individually, instead of wasting time trying to "work" this out. THIS is a distraction from our desire to fulfill God's call and neither of us wants to do that. God hates divorce....NOT the people who divorce. This is my view and I am not suggesting anyone need agree or disagree....it is important TO ME.
Did I ever think this would happen? Not in my wildest fears......but I never thought I would bury a child.......and for me.....THAT was harder than ANYTHING.......but I am still here... and life is still......very, very good.:-)
I feel you sister....
Submitted by c ur self on
What I realized (finally:) was that my peace and emotional state wasn't great because I had made myself a hostage because of the faulty priorities, among other things I was experiencing trying to coexist along side my W.
Before I got married to her...I was usually the one who exuded the strength, and calmness when things got rocky. I was the peacemaker. What happened??? What happened was I got locked in on every faulty priority, every disrespectful act and word....And pointed it out! LOL....I knew the way, and I was going to share it...Now open your mouth; this is good for you!!!...LOL...I know it's not funny, but, I'm laughing at my own insecurity and ignorance.....You said it right; we don't need any distraction's from fulfilling God's call in our lives....
But, unless I missed something, my call to be a husband who loves his wife like Christ loves the church is on top of that priority list....(Talking about myself here)
You know the hardest thing I've ever had to swallow is that the circumstances of my life....(Just like Job's)...no matter how painful, is to count them all Joy. Being thankful for the pain, just like I'm for the Joy....It's a mystery, and one as you put it "sifts us" and refines us.....As you said, he is continually teaching us about himself....
I'm learning there is a place of acceptance, a place where I can be so OK knowing God loves her and is at work in her life, just like he is in my own. And as his child he will produce for me and in me by his spirit, a peace that will and is taking my focus off of the things I would change, the things I must endure living along side her. What am I here for? What is this short life (like a vapor) about? I belong to him, to be used for his good pleasure.
My W has a mind that responds like a Childs in many ways. My 3 year old Granddaughter mimic's her 8 year old brother. He is her hero, she keeps her eye's cut toward him to see how he is going to respond to things...And she does the same.
My wife mimics me. All my wife needs from me is love and acceptance....Not control, not pointing out the same old things that probably want ever change....J called it the Great Lie I believe....She has heard it, and she has believed it....And many times she tries to prove it....But, I've seen what love and acceptance can do to this great lie....Most of my marriage I was no different than any of the others who told her she was crazy and tried to fix her.
Love is an awesome and powerful weapon against the darkness of the human mind....No matter what kind you experience....Brotherly, Godly, intimate or family....It will over come all that comes against it....
J pointed out to me a while back all the things I had said in my post about my W, and then he pointed out all the things I said about myself...LOL....Oh me! Yep, you know my first instincts is like REALLY! But, I appreciate it now....It really don't matter what is true....What matter's is what am I allowing this "True Stuff" to do, to me!....That's the question we need to answer for ourselves!.....I said a while back in one of my posts that one of the signs that we are failing at acceptance is if our Spouse is dominating our thoughts....I got a few honest people to reply....I know I have slipped in and out of that mind and what is happening to me when I can't focus on what I need to be doing and thinking about.....It's not healthy... It will send you to web site to vent...LOL....
I will close this....I think I'm rambling:)
C
cur self, interesting about the non-engaging
Submitted by dedelight4 on
You mentioned that by not engaging your wife she looks into the mirror more and becomes more self aware. (or it at least gives her an opportunity to do so)
This is something my husband has never done, regardless of how many times (even years) that I haven't engaged him. He NEVER seems to put himself in any form of self awareness when it comes to his ADHD. He still sees it as just a (focus) issue for him, but it has no bearing on me. Does your wife realize that her ADHD does have an impact on you as well, or is that still something she needs to learn?
Hi Dede....
Submitted by c ur self on
My wife is very social, as am I. So when I called it quits (giving it my best effort as I depend on my Heavenly Father to guide me) to getting entangled in conversations or situations that wasn't bring any Glory to God and was poison for us, there was no where for her to turn.
She seems to have taken on a commitment in some ways like I've never experienced with her...She is showing signs of conscious awareness about her actions more than she ever has. I think it's a culmination of several things....Jesus (her conviction to honor him and me) My learning to ignore most of those quick outbursts of blame or accusation. (I think she is feeling understood, loved, and respected) The victim peace seemed to have a major impact on her like it did on me....I think she must of thought about it, and realized that mind had to go....I know I did...And Yes, she knows how much I like our fellowship and to be close...She knows if C is quiet and walking away it's not my first choice.....
She is like your husband in that she can't discuss it much and don't like me asking her add related questions....Yesterday she worked (mostly piddling) outside with her flowers and plants and didn't stop for water or lunch (which is normal for her)...But, when she walked past me headed back out after a trip inside, She said....Can you say Hyper-focus? I'm like OK...Did I just hear that...:)
When someone you love disengages and backs away from fellowship, it shines a lot brighter light than trying to point it out verbally or showing anger....
cur self, thanks
Submitted by dedelight4 on
Thank you C.......best to you and your wife.
God bless
Dede
7 Stages of Grief....Lostmyself
Submitted by kellyj on
Hi Lostmyself,
I'm the ADHD one in our marriage but I am not struggling with any denial anymore. It's long since been a thing of the past ( mostly....except for brief moments or a couple of sad days at the most) If I amy offer some insight to you....it might help you understand something about this process that your H is not going to able to tell you or see it very clearly while he is too deep inside of it especially if he doesn't understand where he is in the process himself.
If you look at the seven stages of grief as a process here..........
SHOCK & DENIAL-
You will probably react to learning of the loss with numbed disbelief. You may deny the reality of the loss at some level, in order to avoid the pain. Shock provides emotional protection from being overwhelmed all at once.
PAIN & GUILT-
As the shock wears off, it is replaced with the suffering of unbelievable pain. Although excruciating and almost unbearable, it is important that you experience the pain fully, and not hide it, avoid it or escape from it with alcohol or drugs.
You may have guilty feelings or remorse over things you did or didn't do with your loved one. Life feels chaotic and scary during this phase.
ANGER & BARGAINING-
Frustration gives way to anger, and you may lash out and lay unwarranted blame on someone else. Please try to control this, as permanent damage to your relationships may result. This is a time for the release of bottled up emotion.
You may rail against fate, questioning "Why me?" You may also try to bargain in vain with the powers that be for a way out of your despair.
"DEPRESSION", REFLECTION, LONELINESS-
Just when your friends may think you should be getting on with your life, a long period of sad reflection will likely overtake you. This is a normal stage of grief, so do not be "talked out of it" by well-meaning outsiders. Encouragement from others is not helpful to you during this stage of grieving.
During this time, you finally realize the true magnitude of your loss, and it depresses you. You may isolate yourself on purpose, reflect on things you did with your lost one, and focus on memories of the past. You may sense feelings of emptiness or despair.
More 7 stages of grief...
THE UPWARD TURN-
As you start to adjust, your life becomes a little calmer and more organized. Your physical symptoms lessen, and your "depression" begins to lift slightly.
RECONSTRUCTION & WORKING THROUGH-
As you become more functional, your mind starts working again, and you will find yourself seeking realistic solutions to problems posed by life without your loved one. You will start to work on practical and financial problems and reconstructing yourself.
ACCEPTANCE & HOPE-
During this, the last of the seven stages in this grief model, you learn to accept and deal with the reality of your situation. Acceptance does not necessarily mean instant happiness. Given the pain and turmoil you have experienced, you can never return to the carefree, untroubled YOU that existed before this tragedy. But you will find a way forward.
This is roughly....if not exactly the process your H is going through. This process is what I now believe pretty strongly....is what you are up against more than just the ADHD itself. As I mentioned to C about my wife....she has her own challenges with this for a different reason than ADHD....but the process the behaviors are exactly the same. I think technically....while in the process....you are still IN denial as this works and this appears to be a pretty standard universal process when you experience any kind of loss or trauma like getting diagnosed with something that can be a real hit to your psyche on a number of different levels. Even though you might have always considered this process when someone dies or a major loss of something in your life......discovering you have ADHD can be just as devastating the the same process applies.
If I might offer one bit of advise in how you are thinking about approaching this with him. What I do understand very much is your sense of urgency and you questioning if you can live like this anymore as I hear you. If you could know where he was in this process...that might help ease your mind so you can actually do things to help him through ....and monitor his progress by using this as a tool in order to do this.
I have some concerns myself in some of the things you've said here and I will just give you my honest opinion from someone who has been there. I hope you take this as a means to help and not as one to criticize you at all ....please.
As far as the ADHD symptoms goes....your H has a lot on his plate right now with getting through this process first before he will be able to do anything with the things you are wanting straight up. If you look at the descriptions here and apply that to what you see....the things you've mentioned alone line right up with these different stages. And it doesn't go completely linear step by step. You jump ahead....jump back...skip around a lot until you get more comfortable and in the later stages so trying to push him into anything at the wrong time is a recipe for disaster I think.
It's not until you get to the Upward Turn stages that a person in the earlier ones are going to respond or even be ready to deal with adding one more thing onto your plate. All that will do is cause him to crash and alienate you from him I think. I would especially not go behind his back and try to do and end run on this process by yourself. I can tell you from this experience....you'll be shooting yourself in the foot and only push him away if you do that.
At the same time......being afraid to talk to him when he's in good mood and afraid of rocking the boat might not be the best answer either base on what I said to C about my wife. If you try and gave a global conversation about all of this at once....it will only make him more angry not less...but saying nothing and trying to be the go between in this process for him is honestly the last thing I would do.
I think if you could find a way to gently introduce him to this process itself just for a start..... I think this would serve both you and him together and showing him your concern while getting on the same page at he same time. Do it for his state of mind and well being instead of making it about taking care of this problem for you. At least at first until he understands where he is and can move further in the process than where he is now. Two years may seem like a long time and only see so much progress....but if you are looking directly at solving his ADHD symptoms...and by passing where he is now and not understanding the pain and struggling this process creates....he will feel like you are pushing him to do something that he won't be able to do and that will sabotage his recovery and healing that needs to take place first. It takes time...and from the sound of it...he's only in the first few stages right now. You can't speed this up for him either....it has it's own time table ....but getting stuck in one of these stages is also possible. Getting help with this for himself and understanding that he needs it to feel better first is really what you need to impress on him I think. Pushing him faster than he can handle will only disrupt the process entirely and cause him to shut down and withdraw. I just went through this with my wife and we are just getting into the later stages of it after almost 3 years just so you know but it is vastly improving and we are finally making head way and a great deal of that came from my persistence in not being silent even with the confrontation that it can create.
What I did not understand myself with my wife....is the timing aspect that I just outlined for you. I think you can avoid a lot of the things we went through if you can stand back and see where he is an apply the right approach to the right stage in the process.
The best approach however....is to convince him to look at just this much....with the hope he will go see a professional when he's ready on his own in his own time. Getting him to see this much as a start....would be the direction I would go to help speed this up for you as well....all things considered. I'm not an expert by any means....just someone who's been there.
J
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Submitted by jennalemone on
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