My husband and I started counseling toward the end of 2015 and things were going ok. We discovered his issues with anger management likely come from ADHD, especially b/c our son was just diagnosed. I've endured years of his outbursts and walking on eggshells. My husband does have insight and understands his flare ups hurt my feelings. But, unfortunately, insight doesn't always prevent it from happening. The other night, he began yelling at me because I cleaned up his desk and he said I moved some papers around. I didn't remember doing it, but he insisted it was my fault and now he couldn't find anything. He just started yelling and it took all my strength, but I did not yell back this time. I'm trying to learn from these forums how NOT to react as the non-ADHD spouse. So, I quietly told him I didn't move his papers and walked away. So, I avoided a big double screaming match.....but it still didn't stop me from feeling hurt and I did what I usually do and gave him the silent treatment for 3 days. So typical in our marriage. He yells, I shut down. And it chips away, little by little by little..... SO, if I'm trying to be the bigger person and not yell back, all you non-ADHD spouses, how do I stop myself from still feeling hurt after being yelled at??
How do I avoid feeling hurt after an outburst?
Submitted by Goldilox73 on 02/28/2016.
There are feelings (anger,
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
There are feelings (anger, hurt) and there is behavior (yelling, shutting down). Feelings are not necessarily within our control; behavior always is. So I would focus on figuring out different ways to behave (e.g., is there something you can do other than stop talking for three days) rather than trying to stop yourself from having totally normal feelings (sadness at being yelled at).
For the sake of moving forward...try new reactions.....
Submitted by c ur self on
I agree it's very hard if not impossible to completely disconnect emotionally from the person you love. Why don't you try documenting these instances and read them out to the counselor in front of your husband. (The action by you: straitened a messy desk; the reaction by him; disapproval and loud angry outburst; your reaction to his outburst; shutdown for 3 days) It's more than just adhd...It's being comfortable with bad habits....You may need boundaries in this area (what can he live with and expect; what can you live with an expect)...Handling this kind of situation is very hard because of the negative emotions....Try stepping back and viewing your marriage as a failing business....And, when conflict arises, think of it as an opportunity to make your business more successful and rid it of loss time and revenue...Document it as soon as you can, w/o emotion if possible, so as to get the closest thing to the truth when taking this information back to counselor. Try to not use the counselor as a referee, (he said, she said) because at that point you are wasting your $....One of the other lady posters says she has provisions in her car, when her spouse does this she will just leave for a while...I know it's best for me to walk away when emotions get strained also....It's like whipping a cowardly dog; if he humbles down you more apt to walk away, then if he is trying to bite you....I applaud you for walking away, but once the shock of his behavior has come and gone...Document it....and my suggestion is don't debate the results of what you write down with him, if he wants to argue the point instead of take full responsibility for his actions...Just another trap for denial to win....Also, watch your own pride; there is always two sides to these confrontations...
I think the Goal here should be accountability for our own actions, and respect for our spouses even in the things we don't understand or agree with....
I feel for you Goldilox...There is so much to navigate when a person lives so intrusive of their spouse....Hurtful outbursts tops the list.....
C
machismo and femininity
Submitted by jennalemone on
I have only just begun to be able to not feel hurt after H's thoughtless action or angry words. I had in the past stuffed my anger so often and I can't stuff any more. It takes pulling yourself out of the situation at the moment and becoming like a third party to the situation. A third party who witnesses someone being thoughtless or angrily lashing out to another person. I have to pull my "self" aside to be able to observe, listen and make a determination about what is going on. Then I take a moment later to let myself identify the feeling I have at the end of it for a milisecond and quickly step aside from my feelings. I have done this often enough and now I have a short cut.
He starts the words or the anger or the action/inaction and my brain thinks "here he goes again" (This instead of what did I do wrong? or What is the matter with him? or What just went wrong? or How can I help? or How can I love him into changing? or I wish I had a supportive spouse/partner). Nope, just "here he goes again". I must hold my own thoughts and feelings in check but I acknowledge them to my self so that I don't lose myself and dishonor myself, but I realize that if I respond genuinely from my heart (being startled and powered over and outraged and sad for us) , it will not help the situation or the relationship. I cannot just be spontaneiously myself with him anymore. I must manage each situation like a third party manager. Is this ingenuous of me to not respond with my true feelings? It has become survival. I must be on guard and ready with boundaries. Is it a good long term solution? No, it is just a better way to stop sacrificing my self esteem and self respect. I cannot permit myself any longer to feel hated or imprisoned by someone I had strived to love for 40 years. After the chaotic moment when the scenerio is over, I get to permit myself to feel the feeling, and take a moment to settle my self and name it and sooth myself with memories of love from other people and diversions that involve love and acceptance of me. Maybe a prayer for strength and acceptance and community.
Writing this, I grieve for the relationship I wanted/want and know that I MUST interact with him this way for now. I had been yelling, crying, trying to make him aware and care and work WITH me rather than to let him dominate me. Male dominance was more important to him than our relationship. Or, I should say male dominance WAS our relationsihp. He would use words like "wuss", "pw"..not prisnoner of war, "bitch", "nag", he would use the words of genitals in normal conversation....get him by the "b....s", she is such a "c....."., "screw" you, "f....." off. I thought it was good to be feminine when I was young. And I did not use those words. When we were teenagers I thought he was strong and his strong words were sign of strength and nerve. Now I know different. I thought that that is just how guys talk and didn't make a scene when he used those words that upset me. Trying not to fight EVERYTHING all the time. Now those words cause me to think, "idiot".
Our relationship felt more like a pack of dogs where one dog is dominant and would routinely cause a skirmish so that the other dogs would know he was boss. When I think how a relationship could be a team building a life and/or a family together, I grieve that I must have boundaries and manipulate and cautiously use defense to his dominant dog style.
But to live like I lived with him in the past, enabling him, is not possible. I want to have self respect.
The Dog King
Submitted by jennalemone on
Using the dog analogy, He scrounges for nice things he wants, calls them his own, must pee on them to mark his territory and buries them under some other junk like camoflage safe keeping. He covers nice things with crap and shoves them into a hoarding pile and then never visits or sees his crap again other than as a total pile he imagines is a valuable single ball of attainments. I am one of those nice things he has garnered and hoards and unless some other dog would try to take it away from him, he is not mindful of it. Just contentedly marked me as some of his junk that he has to verbally kick once in a while to keep me in his pile.
Same situation
Submitted by NonADHD on
Hi Jenna,
I'm in the same boat. I'm the non-ADHD spouse and my wife has ADHD. When gets angry, it escalates into explosion, extreme cynicism, disrespect and criticism. I recently wrote extensively here under the same category, my topic, spouse hasn't talked to me in 2 months. Here anger causes her to leave this relationship, not physically, oh she's here, but checks out. No word, nothing. I have also stuffed my feelings and emotions. This is a new pattern for us, we are nearing our two year anniversary and I'm literally shocked. She'll be home in an hour and I literally don't want to be here when she arrives. I will be back later after she settles in. We will not talk, because she says nothing but snide remarks, off thew wall, blurting out of something. I'm literally checked out as well, my gaurd is up because she is on the defensive and I'm the target. There is some really good advice on here that has helped me cope with this neurological disorder that we must live with.
That's a good way to put it.
Submitted by AliceInBraids on
That's a good way to put it.
I agree Jenna..
Submitted by NonADHD on
Excellent expression. I feel the same frustration with my wife.I think since ADHD is considered a neurological disorder by the DSM 4/5, that many of the symptoms are apparent inmost people that are diagnosed. For the record, I'm not saying everyone who has ADHD have the same symptoms, but if dementia is in the same DMV and most people diagnosed with dementia have the same brain degenerative condition, some may be at different stages and some may be on medications that eliminate symptoms. I think, we nonADHD'rs need to come up with our very own preventive measures as you described yours. Mine is now leaving to get away, regain my thoughts and composure.I've decided not to let the anger, frusteations, verbal abuse, emotional outbursts, criticisms, insults etc., to impact me. It doesn't matter what our issues are we are going to get much of the same treatment. My goal is to change the arena, playing field, get out of the corner and the ropes in the ring and move to the center.I need for my wife to admit that together we need to see someone in order to have more balance in an unbalanced marriage. I ned to do this in a loving manner where she doesn't sense a hint of a trap.
All your comments are so
Submitted by Goldilox73 on
All your comments are so helpful. Thank you. I just feel so far from being able to get there.... I don't know how to separate my feelings from my behavior. I've been feeling/reacting the same way for so many years. My husband says I am telling him he's not allowed to ever be angry. But I correct him all the time saying he can be as angry as he wants-- as long as he doesn't yell at me or disrespect me. This is where we collide. He doesn't know how to be angry without being loud. And although when he's calm he says he can learn to behave differently, I don't think in my heart I believe it. He's not wired that way. And I'm not wired to be less sensitive. I am so afraid this will end. I am trying very hard to change my own behavior, but my feelings take over very quickly and I start having those hopeless thoughts about splitting up, literally while he is in the middle of yelling at me. I don't know how to stop THAT from happening, either.
Tiny steps
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
Goldilox73,
I have a flesh, and it gets pricked by mean words. It is taking me an awfully long time to get to the place of realizing the words in angry tones do not have to be for me to absorb as anything personal.
It is taking lots of practice to get to this place, , , , , ,and I will assure you by my own experience of working at it - - - - - it IS do-able.
I started by first "shaking it off." Literally, I shook them words off. Either by shaking my hands, or my whole body, or shrugging my shoulders to represent to me that I was not gonna carry that stuff around. Sounds silly, but it really worked.
I want to interject that in our home, since the day of our marriage, firmly in place is my own steadfast rule - No character assassination. None. Not ever. Not by me, my spouse, our children or their friends. Not in my house.
I realize now that my spouse has a lot of frustration that is expressed as anger or a loud voice. What I have to do is continually remind my brain that it is my spouses' action/voice - and I do not accept it nor validate it as anything to do with me.
I am sensitive too. I may have been an easily accessible dumping ground - even though I know it was not his intention - I no longer volunteer for that job by standing around and letting him unload his frustration upon me.
I have great concern for the amount of anger I see my spouse carry around. I can be a listening ear for his frustration, I can encourage him that he needs to find a way to let-go-of/get-past his anger. I made a choice to not help him carry it. I love that man, and no longer choose to participate in the poor pattern we had developed.
Sincerely,
Liz
One step at a time..
Submitted by NonADHD on
Hi Liz,
You always have encouraging advice, you have really helped me so much. I actually have copied and paste all the excellent advice from you, C and others as my daily reading. We are still in thick of this issue, my wife even went to church and our pastor was delivering the message of marriage and the importance of the covenant. I sat in the back because she didn't want to go with me, she sat with her mom, I don't think she knew I was there. It was horrible, awkward and I wanted to cry. No empathy, just their hyper-gaze with no clue of their spouses feeling.
Keep moving forward
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
Doug,
I am glad to know that sharing my experiences is helpful to someone.
One of the helpful suggestions I received came from my interpretations of something Melissa Orlov wrote. Basically her instructions were to focus on Liz, be the best I can be, and my spouse would surely follow. What I got from that is my spouse could be inspired by focus on myself, so that he might be inspired to focus on himself.
The marriage part is very tricky. Each and every person needs to embrace what their marriage vows mean - to THEM. The traditional vows are not found anywhere in the Bible - "For better or worse, for richer or poorer, in sickness and in health, till death do we part." Yes, the principle ideas are wrapped up in wisdom scattered through the scriptures, but you will not find a chapter or verse to sustain the whole thing.
My vows are a promise - NOT a condemnation to a life of bitterness; unless my spouse has an affair - which will then trigger the "Get Out of Marriage Free" clause. (I said this last part in sarcasm. . . . . . . . . .)
My vows are promises made to my spouse, which I cherish, and in the same, my spouse made vows to me, which I cherish.
We entered into a covenant. I can surely expect to uphold my end, and also expect my spouse to uphold his end. A person can only work on their own end, their part, of a covenant. If pleas fall on un-hearing ears, we have no choice but to find ways to protect ourselves.
I want to enjoy - be happy - be free to enjoy and be happy. Truly that is difficult when there is the constant need to be hyper-vigilant on what I say or do so as not to accidentally set off a cycle of events that ends with being around anger - regardless of the reason. We can all take a bit of a bad day, or week, or even month. But when years start ticking by, and the only way to find peace is to constantly be diligent not to trip up - then it is myself that needs to have better boundaries put in place.
My Christian faith is indeed intact - regardless of the erroneous interpretations of the Bible that was thrown my way when I sought help. I have found that anyone who tried to control my actions by using the Bible to condemn me, was indeed doing no more than trying to control me.
Very truly,
Liz
Hi Liz
Submitted by NonADHD on
Hi Liz, bear with me because I am text talking this. Yes you really have help me I have been using that to be the best that I could be for Doug. That has led me to really focus on you know my life separating myself from my spouse who has the ADHD and really working on me focusing on what I need to do. The other thing I'm working on is I'm going to start working on being hard to get this is unusual for me cuz I never had to do this before but I'm going to start playing hard to get just not be available for my spouse I'm not going to be around I'm not going to be available I have to do this because I have to figure out some way to get her back. We still have not talked it still very uncomfortable it's so much like we've been reading about here on this forum. But I have got to get something going to break her spirit as you and I talked about to break her pride and to get her back focused.
I fear you mave have mixed my suggestions with other posts
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
Doug,
I need to clarify a point. The following words are NOT anything you got from me. :But I have got to get something going to break her spirit as you and I talked about to break her pride and to get her back focused.
I me - Liz - in no way, no how, believe anyone has the right to think it is up to them to break anyone's pride/spirit. I - me - Liz believes that is trying to exert power and control over someone. It may appear to work, but where does that leave the person exerting all that power and control? In a place of joy and peace? I think not.
What I believe is your spouse's spirit is her own.
What I believe is your spouse's pride is her own.
What I believe is your spouse's focus is her own.
What I believe is that we our powerless over anyone, and our peace and serenity comes from leaving their care up to themselves and God. That is where wisdom lies - in knowing you can control no one but yourself.
My observation from the other part of your post is ". . . . . . PLAYING hard to get." Playing emotional games of any sort is not wisdom. that is the opinion of Liz.
Very Truly,
Liz
Mixed suggestions..
Submitted by NonADHD on
Hi Liz,
Sorry about the confusion. My suggestions are for me and what I need to do in order to save my marriage. Almost two years now and lately, for the last two months my wife has changed and has distanced herself from me, if this marriage is going to last then I need to do something. I agree 100% with you, my wife's thoughts, actions, spirit, pride, anger, frustration is all her's. But I am not going to live walking on eggshells. I read on here so many marriages where the non-ADHD spouse lives with all the issues, I'm not going to do that. My wife has a strong pride in not apologizing, in not respecting her tongue, thi is all ADHD not me. However, I need to work on me from not feeling so uncomfortable inside, I'm losing myself, I'm becoming anxious, defensive, worried and this is robbing me of who I am. My wife has totally taken over. I'm living with a zombie !!! We have a marriage, a union, a covenant, and we need to work together. If she does not honor that, then the ADHD has one and she will have another failed marriage and kick a wonderful man to the curb. So what I say on here is all mine. I need to worry about me, I need to maintain my strength and I need to take action to get her back. I will not allow for someone to treat me with disrespect, they have a condition, then it's no excuse. When I say play hard to get, that means I'm changing my natural way of behaving which is the peacemaker, forgiver, giver, and lover, well all that does not matter to the constant barrage of the ADHD phenomenon. Im trying to figure this out, thats all it is. I am a lover, sensual and romantic and I'm not going to STOP who I am because of ADHD. I hope one day soon to write my success story on here.
Doug, very best wishes. Yes,
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Doug, very best wishes. Yes, do, do work on your own well being. Do.
You attributed to Liz something that she didn't say and furthermore has her own good reasons for not giving you the advice that you wrote that she had given you. I do think, since all we have to share here on this board, is what we do write, that it needed to be cleared up that she didn't advise you to do what you said she had. This is just conversation cleanup, as far as I see it, that people need to do in ongoing conversation offline, if they are going to be heard for what they DID say, not for what they didn't. Ordinary housekeeping of communication. And I do think it was in order. All that was needed Liz did, which was to clarify what she did and didn't say, so that for people reading the ongoing thread, they are able to read more accurately.
In fact, I don't even need to speak for her. Perhaps I am writing because I too had a very definite reaction to the advice given to you, which you took in, to break your partners pride. I would have needed to correct, online, that I didn't advise that, if I had been in Liz's shoes.
Very generally, I'm of the belief that you expressed in much of your last post, that where the work and attention needs to go, is to understanding and changing yourself, and your own actions, in the areas of your marital relation that aren't working. Sure you have a spouse contributing to the dynamic, and I certainly read you as in a great deal of pain over her withdrawal of communication, a great deal.
But short of totalitarian control of a spouse, which none of us want, people, especially adults, can't make other adults think or do much at all. The last thing you want is to force your spouse to do what you want, and so drive her completely away. And if she has anything to her in her, any value of herself, she WILL go away if you force her to do what you want. I can guarantee you, I'd be gone in a New York minute, permanently, and I don't care whether I'm married or not, if I were being forced.
That's another good reason for putting your major effort into self care, at the moment. Look, trying to fix your wife is a decoy. Putting all your mind and effort into putting her right, making her do, making her right, is a substitute for where the real challenge is, which is your own well being.
You're in a very uncomfortable, painful domestic situation right now, yes. Wishing you well.
Conversation Clean-up
Submitted by NonADHD on
Hi all,
Yes, Liz DID NOT give me advice directly. To clarify, I have been reading and piecing together ideas from this forum based off of what other people, non-ADHD and ADHD participants are sharing. I used some of Liz's idea's for my own, such as "be the best Doug can be", in which I believe she used that from Melissa Orlov's writtings. just giving her credit for enlightening me, no harm. This forum and the information shared here is invaluable to someone like me, the non-ADHD that is living with ADHD and the complications the symptoms can create. I hope that helped. I also appreciate Liz's honesty regarding her situation.
Opinions versus the facts
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
Doug,
Some things discussed on this forum are facts. Even those facts are evolving.
The American Psychiatric Association DSM - 5 continues to update information on ADHD. This is a link to their current fact sheet: http://www.dsm5.org/Documents/ADHD%20Fact%20Sheet.pdf ADHD is characterized by a pattern of behavior, present in multiple settings (e.g., school and home), that can result in performance issues in social, educational, or work settings. As in DSM-IV, symptoms will be divided into two categories of inattention and hyperactivity and impulsivity that include behaviors like failure to pay close attention to details, difficulty organizing tasks and activities, excessive talking, fidgeting, or an inability to remain seated in appropriate situations.
Then, there are the things written here that are opinions. I wanted to clarify which opinion I had. As an example: think about the 2 schools of thought on child-raising - 1. those who spank and 2. those who do not spank. Each side is fiercely adamant that they are correct. Does that make sense?
If anyone here attributes wrong information based on the DSM-5, any of us could challenge the facts as being wrong.
All the things that I post about what I choose to do - are based on my opinions and what is working for me. In my response to you, I only wanted to make it clear that "You need to break your spouse's pride" would not be something I would suggest. If that is a route you choose to take, I would support your choice to try it.
My approach recently has been 2 fold :
1. I want a partner in life, and I will no longer behave in a manner that makes my position that of a parent in a parent/child dynamic.
2. I know I cannot force/manipulate/cry/yell/withdraw to make my spouse do anything. Or anyone else for that matter. My choices are to respond to situations in a manner that brings the most serenity and the least amount of frustration to myself.
Hope that explains my post a bit clearer?
Sincerely,
Liz
Can you clarify.....
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
You wrote that you cleaned up his desk....did you clean up his desk?
Or did you want to say, "my husband yelled at me because he wrongly thought I cleaned up his desk"?
If you didn't touch his desk, and he yelled at you, then you absolutely did the right thing by not engaging him when he's dysregulated.
The problem is often this: When your H is CALM, he understands that he is hurting you with his outbursts. However, when he's dysregulated, he can't "think straight" and lashes out at you, unfairly.
Continue to calmly state your position and walk away.
Oops I just posted my own
Submitted by AliceInBraids on
Oops I just posted my own thread about this because I didn't see yours at first. *Hugs*. You're not alone. I certainly dont have the answer but I'm right here with you. I'm interested to see what others have to say... This forum is the only thing keeping me from losing my mind. Hang in there.