I've been married for almost 25 years. My husband has never been officially diagnosed. During my first years of marriage, I believed our communication problems were due to the classic tale of Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus. I tried all the different approaches that this sort of literature suggested. None really seemed to work. A few years ago, a good friend of mine and child education; suggested that my husband may have ADD. As I began researching and taking workshops (one of my daughters has it) I've come to the realization that my husband also suffers from this. I've talked to my husband about it, and he's in denial. He doesn't accept it, therefore is not pursuing any help; because "that's the way he is".
I can deal with the forgetfulness, lack of help around the house, hiperfocusing, not being able to watch movies together; I've learned and am used to doing this on my own. What I can not get used to is not being listened to. Even my youngest daughter, who is just 6, always yells at him during their playtime "Daaad, you're not listening to me!".
I've tried speaking in "point form". I've tried speaking on one sentence at the time. I've tried pausing when I see he's mentally gone. I've tried the Q&A method. I've tried writing my thoughts (he has a terrible time reading too).
It's normal for a spouse to want to talk about dreams, feelings, plans, ideas, etc. You want to share with your partner and make him part of you. But he's not there when I talk to him about deep meaningful matters. I can talk about the weather, dinner, kids' school matters, random daily stuff. Since this is not really meaningful, and "complicated", he's able to pay some attention. Usually these exchanges are short, and we can jump from one topic to another. But meaningful things... "couple" things, as soon as I begin talking; he's there for a few seconds and then he's mentally gone. Sometimes he comes back but he's missed so much speech, that he's lost as to what I'm talking about. If we're in bed, and I talk to him, he falls asleep while I'm talking, so I avoid this at all costs.
During a conversation, to be recapping all the time, it's tiresome and frustrating; because then the conversation keeps on getting longer and longer; and I can see how tired and uninterested he is by then. I feel like to his ears I'm the teacher from the Peanuts cartoon. Or like he just cancels me out and focuses on whatever is going on inside his brain. He's physically there, but not mentally; he's lack of attentiveness is so bad, that he can't realize when I'm still talking and just leaves to do whatever his brain told him to do, while I'm still talking!
So, any recommendations as to how I can help him engage in an intimate conversation? How can I just talk to him? I asked him once this question: Please, help me communicate with you, what can I do? His response was "I don't know", "just accept it, that's how I am".
Should I talk in "episodes"? I'm afraid that by the time the next episode comes by, he'd forgotten what the previous episode was about.
Should I just keep my thougths to myself? No meaningful conversations? I guess then our senior years, when there's nothing for him to do, we'll be very bored; since we can't be conversation partners. How sad.
What have you tried that seems to work?
His ADHD denial is the elephant-in-the-room.
Submitted by Will It Get Better on
Tough one. IMO he won't listen to you if he thinks you are trying to 'change' him. If he perceives your speech this way he'll immediately tune you out [maybe without even realizing he has done so]. Click. Done. [You could keep talking for five minutes but he'll be 'gone' after a few seconds and, when you pause expecting a response, he just mumble something non-committal.]
He needs an ADHD-savvy psychiatrist, acceptance that he has ADHD and a personal commitment that he will actively manage these symptoms. His denial is the elephant-in-the-room.
You're absolutely right. It
Submitted by CRG on
You're absolutely right. It is indeed his ADHD. The difficult task is to convince him about it. Because a lot of his family members are like this too, he just strongly believes this is just a personality trait. For the first years, his mom would always tell me, "just forgive him, he's just like his dad, they're very distracted and forgetful". Thus emphasizing the wrong believe that this is just a personality trait. And he's been living like this for 50 years! He knows how to "function". He has a good group of friends. A stable job. A family. He had a hard time at school, but he managed to finished an Engineering degree. He's a brilliant Engineer, his ability to hyper focus makes him a great software engineer. Socially... he doesn't understand sarcasm, has a hard time understanding jokes; can't keep up with movies/tv shows that are not action packed, falls asleep after reading one page of a book. He has a hard time communicating well, he uses a lot of "hmmm" while having a conversation; he constantly looses track of his own speeches (what was I saying?/what's his name?/what's it called?). He's very handy, knows how to fix pretty much anything; but he'll start fixing one thing, goes to look for X tool, while there remembers to fix something else, and there he goes; lost in his own to do list. All this clearly points at ADD symptoms, I don't have a doubt about it. It's how to relay this information to him in order for him to seek help (although in his world he thinks he doesn't need help). Because his attention span is so short, I noticed the way he learns is a combination of visual and kinetic. He loves to learn through videos, but they have to be short, direct, no subs and very visual. I have come up with the idea of making a collection of animation videos portraying an ADD brain vs non ADD brain. See if with this he can have an epiphany.
Thank you for your suggestion as to try to use words that don't sound like "you need to change". I actually used this technique last night, and I was able to keep him engaged in our dialogue for a few minutes.
Snippets and 'Conversation Haiku'
Submitted by Will It Get Better on
You have to some good examples above of ADHD symptoms. How to use your observations? The literature suggests that you can expect little progress about making progress in reducing or mitigating symptoms until your husband is the one actively recognizing his behavior as an ADHD symptom. I suggest you acknowledge the current limited attention span to which you are presented and therefore try to severely compact your expectations around 'conversations'. I'd try to think more in terms of 'snippets'. You don't get several sentences to get an idea across so try limiting yourself to two sentences before he is expected to respond. Think of it as 'Conversation Haiku'.
If we are going to say that
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
If we are going to say that conversational difficulties are caused by ADHD, shouldn't it also be acknowledged that many people with ADHD are able to choose to engage in conversations when they want to, e.g., when they are in control of the situation or when talking about topics they like or when talking to certain people?
Yes.
Submitted by AdeleS6845 on
My boyfriend can go on and on about a subject, as most of us can, when it is a subject that interests him. ( I have noticed that his family tends to "check out" sometimes when he does this.)
My guys big attention holder
Submitted by Shell10 on
My guys big attention holder is politics. This is an arena where we Do Not agree but he constantly tries to dragged me into a convo about this. In this department, I, the non adhd person, tunes him out. It is my only defense as it can be an awful conflict and since he finds it interesting, he can go on for hours. The mid term elections were Hell on Earth and I dread 2020.
How many other non adhd mates have to tune out to live?
Hi Michelle....
Submitted by c ur self on
It's called not respecting peoples (spouse) rights...I'm with you concerning politics...But, even if I was with your husband (thoughts dominated by it) hopefully I would respect the fact you aren't interested in hearing my opinions on the matter....
I deal w/ something very similar...I call it " Pressing others"....I have done it plenty to my wife when it comes to marriage responsibilities....(openness, chores, taking time for intimacy)....She on the other hand does it to me quiet a lot (use to more than now)....Because her focus is more directed on self-entertainment she press's toward things like, frivolity, trips out of the country, and of course when I, or our (4) adult children, or her friends agree to spend time w/ her on one of her adventures, she presses us to do the things she thinks are exciting for her....She is this way even w/ the grand babies...:)...Of course they think she is the balm...Its the adults that role their eyes and think..."Geez, Can you give it a break" LOL....
I find boundaries help...I find a smile and kiss, and walking away saying..."You know that's your thing" helps....I find pointing it out, or any negative reply doesn't help :(....Some times we just have to accept the mind that they are locked in....Walk away and be the bigger person...For Peace Sake!
blessings
c
Difficulties are caused by lack of focus or hyper-focus
Submitted by Will It Get Better on
PI, I think when the ADHDer is engaged (perhaps engrossed) in an issue they may have an extraordinary amount to say on a topic and be a delightful conversational companion. The non-ADHDer gets 'hooked' by this behavior during the hyper-focus phase. However after you've been relegated to the ADHD Support 'Pit Crew' your presence and/or statements don't receive the enrapture that you were once given. In this state of existence keeping the focus of the ADHDer for even a moment is an achievement. It is here that I believe the 'snippets' methodology may be relevant.
How much effort do you think
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
How much effort do you think the pit crew member should make? In my mind, this equates to "how much of what the pit crew member considers important should the pit crew member give up so as not to 'disturb' the person with ADHD"?
'real world' aspects of your lives above a complete shambles
Submitted by Will It Get Better on
PI, as a 'Pit Crew' member you are pretty much screwed relationally but someone must keep the 'real world' aspects of your lives somewhat above a complete shambles (particularly if you have dependent children.) The ADHDer may not seem to care that 'the relationship' feels like something out of the Gulag to you. Even then you might need to have a 'successful conversation' to get your ADHDer to agree and then actually do the thing they agreed to in the expected time frame. This might be as limited as not removing shoes and leaving them in the middle of the floor (again). By the time you are in the 'ADHD Enabler Pit Crew' your expectations are likely to be so low that they are little different than 'sorrows'.
I agree. I did my stint as
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
I agree. I did my stint as the pit crew member. It stunk.
When I was younger, I thought
Submitted by CRG on
When I was younger, I thought he just simply had an area of his brain under developed, and the other area over developed. Anything that had to do with General Knowledge, Languages, Music, Arts, History, Religions,Geography, Biology, Chemistry, Nature, Ecology just didn't work. And anything related to Math, Physics, Electronics, Computers and Mechanics worked to the plus plus. Because you get him talking about any of these 5, and he would smile and get excited and go on and on, a bit tiring to listen to because his lack of vocabulary and inefficient word finding system ("hmmm" every 3 or 4 words) make his speeches soooo long; but still feels great to have him talking to you. Just like you described, a delightful conversational companion; I'm not an Engineer, but I think I can be one just by everything I've learned from him.
I thought that for a while,
Submitted by CRG on
I thought that for a while, but I honestly don't think they really have control over that. I think they just have an On/Off switch. Turns on when key words are heard, and turns off with the rest.
If people with ADHD have
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
If people with ADHD have these on-off switches that they can't control, then there seems to be no point in attempting to communicate with them. Which is what some people with ADHD will be very happy to have happen.
But the insanely frustrating part of it for the non-ADHDer...
Submitted by Will It Get Better on
But the insanely frustrating part of it for the non-ADHDer is that 'it did not used to be like this' (which is closely related to 'Am I losing my mind...' and 'What am I supposed to do now?').
I have come up with the idea
Submitted by Sollertiae on
I have come up with the idea of making a collection of animation videos portraying an ADD brain vs non ADD brain. See if with this he can have an epiphany.
If you are going to have a go, then maybe draw some inspiration from the YouTube channel 'How to ADHD', or use some of their resources? It is made by someone with ADHD for people with it, and uses every technique I know (working with students who have it) to make the videos engaging. High energy, big face movement, bright, constant cuts, short, lots of things going on in the background (constant sound, animations) to feed the brain so they can focus, etc. From the comments it seems to be able to hold the attention of many, not many are tapping out. Plus they have a good explanation of brain vs hearts (ADHD'er and non ADHD'er) even if maybe a bit young seeming.
My ex-husband also had
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
My ex-husband also had difficulty engaging in meaningful conversations about deep topics. He eventually (when it was too late) told me he was afraid to form emotional connections with people. I think that is true. I think it had little to do with ADHD.
accomplishing something...
Submitted by c ur self on
Hi CRG, welcome!....My thoughts....When a person has trouble tracking, and/or feels the material they are hearing isn't something that interests them...They will drift.... It's more about a busy mind, disinterest/boredom, then just intentional ignoring...
Accepting difference's is a HUGE part of successful marriages as I'm sure you know...If you kindly make your spouse understand how important you feel his attention is, and how much it mean's to you, when he shows "effort" to spend a little while at times giving you his undivided attention in conversation, that is all you can do....He will have to care to work at it, since his tendencies/abilities are lacking in that area...
Communication has always been difficult for my wife and I...She is diagnosed add, (adderall) and I'm not diagnosed, but know that I suffer with some symptoms.....We are both great talkers, and terrible listeners, sooooo:)..we end up talking at the same time, a lot!....:)...I can track talk time, she can't, not well (she would tell you different;)....So I've learned to accept that, and I care, so I make an attempt to listen, even when she is boring me w/ details about something, I could care less about....Why? at least two reason's...I love her, and I do her the same way:)
Patients is a must in our conversation attempts...."Breaking the train of thought" is also a must, never be foolish enough to attempt to speak to a "high focusing mind" from another room, or, as you enter the room where they are...Until you observe them, and get in front of them, and make sure you have broken their focus, and make sure you have there attention....And never speak to them using unnecessary details, that you "expect" them to be able to follow and have recall of....That isn't going to happen many times....Just my suggestions, based on my mind, and my wife's mind and the reality of what is possible in communication attempts....
Wishing you all the best!
c
Great advise, letting them
Submitted by CRG on
Great advise, letting them know how important it is to you when they make an effort to listen to you. We all have feelings and emotions, and when there is real Love in the picture, sometimes just the fact of making an effort is good enough. Baby steps. I can't imagine how his brain is so busy all the time and so easily distracted. The depressing part, is them not knowing that we are also making a lot of effort; becoming masters of summarizing, compacting information, choosing the right vocabulary, selecting the best times to talk, be observant in order to read their body clues... All that also takes great effort, it's just that it may not be noticed by the other party... Because they just don't know what it takes.
CRG....
Submitted by c ur self on
(The depressing part, is them not knowing that we are also making a lot of effort; becoming masters of summarizing, compacting information, choosing the right vocabulary, selecting the best times to talk, be observant in order to read their body clues... All that also takes great effort, it's just that it may not be noticed by the other party... Because they just don't know what it takes.)
How to say this?? Let me encourage you to LIVE your way....Don't over think him, believe what you see....When you do that, you will learn to accept the (real and present) limitations and inabilities to communication with your spouse....(See Jenna's post)...Loving someone,doesn't mean that we have to adapt (be molded) ourselves to dysfunctional behaviors....What causes that (it did for me anyway) is our expectations!... Expectations that most people call just normal living, normal sharing as one....Forget normal....I can leave, or I can accept and live...But I will never have normal ;)....(See adele's post) Her comment about her husband crawfishing once he realized it was to late....That is common on this site....We have people (mostly husbands) drop in, begging for help, and just lamenting about how much they love their wives, but she is leaving....It's really sad....
When I finally decided I was fine to go, my wife was in a little bit of shock..(Oh no, not my loving Christian husband, who hates divorce, he would never leave)...But I decided that I wanted to get old in a loving relationship of kindness and mutual respect (peaceful life) I was done with the arguments, faulty priorities, and disrespectful actions....Now about a year later, we are experiencing mutual respect, acceptance, and for the most part kindness day to day....Thank the LORD!...What changed? Well, I started living, I stopped pointing out dysfunction, I stopped attempting to fix, and starting accepting (live and let live)...I've learned to say no w/o experiencing anxiety...
About a year ago I wrote on our bathroom mirror w/ a erasable marker....These things....1) Where your treasure is, there your heart is also....2) Take "Ownership" of our decisions...2) "Never Press Others" 3) "Respect Difference's, and Boundaries"....A year later it's still there, a very good reminder for us both....Every friend, and family member has seen it....Of course, every friend and family member know's it needs to be there :)
Yes, he has a life.....But, so do you....Don't pressure yourself, just breathe and live....When we refuse to enable, when we refuse to jump through hoops because of irresponsibility or dysfunctional and chaotic life styles, we force accountability, we force adult hood :)
c
CRG. Don't lose your self trying to be "nice"
Submitted by jennalemone on
Yes, intimate conversation is missing with H. It is what I yearn for but he:
I have stopped trying to do all the graceful things that make for good conversation with H. I gave up too much of myself bending myself to be supportive, nice and loving to him. He remembers only his lies he tells himself and BLAMES me for his failures.I am on a conscious path to gain my self back again and say what is on my mind for my own sake and sometimes just to see how he responds to check my reality.
I was so tuned in to what would be good for HIM that I hurt myself. AND I really have come to understand that he WANTS to start a fight and that words do not seem to hurt him. I have been TOO careful and nice. He wants the drama and to hurl out hurtful words and actions. It's just who he is. He would do well in a relationship like on the TV soaps where accusations and superlatives fly at each other like a Virginia Woolf book. I am starting to just be me now and not try for intimate, nice conversations, especially planning talks. I shell it out when I need to, always remembering that he is better and louder at that than I am so I must not get emotional or hurt when he says his mean words. Most often I don't try to communicate and instead I take care of myself- not compromising myself for him but not turning myself into someone I don't want to be either.
Heck of a way to be married. Some people like to be married like this - hurling insults at each other. I don't.
jenna-
Submitted by AdeleS6845 on
I so identify with your post. I remember a conversation I had with my former Mother In Law. She spoke of a time when she was the young, eager to please wife, demurely deferring to my Father In Law's often loud, overbearing personality. Back then she would shut down during his outbursts. She said: "I decided that I would rather speak up and dish it right back at him than remain silent and have him walk all over me". I was often present during some of their arguments, him hurling hurtful words at her, and her hurling just as hurtful words back at him. More than once, I remember my Sister in law leaving the room, and saying " I can't stand this!".
I really wanted to say something to my MIL at the time, but I thought what good what it do? She had no idea about the abuse her son had inflicted upon me, and remaining silent was my only option. After all, I couldn't expect her to take my side.
I wanted to say: " I don't believe I should have to scream and shout to be heard." I believed then as I do now, that although being married is not always easy, it shouldn't be a constant struggle either.
My ex didn't care about what I thought or had to say until I filed for divorce. Then he backpedaled like crazy, desperate to keep me from walking away from our marriage. I completely changed myself to accommodate him. I gave him a thousand second chances to change. I will not lose myself in my current relationship.
My snippet method
Submitted by Sollertiae on
Not sure it will help, but in case you get anything out of it .. my (undiagnosed) SO is not so inattentive in that 'shut off' way, he manifests more in continuous external processing that shows in an inability to stop speaking, slamming over anything I might say and all conversation being dictated by his interests. It has been like this from day one, but just as I was wondering if I mattered at all, he helped me realise a few things: first, if he is on a topic he is uncertain about he gets very anxious and will always fall back into his favourite topic or avoid (not a switch, its how he deals with being social),. Second, if he isn't interested in a thing or anxious about his competency in it then he will not be able to focus on it (blanking out) and that I should not be offended by that. This doesn't mean he hasn't heard and values that I value it ... somewhere in the popcorn machine of his brain never to see light of day. Fourth, he is truly, utterly terrible at expressing really significant feelings, leading to avoidance at all costs. I've had to learn to recognise what is him telling me he cares because he cannot verbalise it. I try to minimise major relationship conversations, keeping them short and pragmatic, done while walking or with something to fidget with, and 'bootlegged' (recorded) so he can go back to get things he missed. And as C ur self noted, making sure he is not 'in the zone.' There will never be a 'future planning' conversation, he simply can't. If I want something I do it, and offer him the opportunity to come along, or not.
The most important realisation though (from this board and elsewhere) was that if he stops talking at me then I have a problem because that is him trying. It is what he does with friends as well. So I've learned to value him flooding me with all its madness, even if it is not a 'normal' conversation and I seem to be only an audience. I know that running on stems from a few things - him coming out of a period of intense hyper-focus on a favourite topic and wanting to share (music rather than engineering), or from his brain reacting to the first half thing I said and drowning in the fascinating associated ideas that came up. I rarely take offense (I don't tolerate abuse or rudeness), because mostly I know it is him wanting to talk to me but not knowing how to (deluge of his interests), or being interested in what I say and unable to reel in his brain (taking over).
How I handle his monologuing and interrupting depends on the cause, but it is mostly to encourage the speaking component. Early on I sometimes interrupted to repeat a statement or joke I made before he went off, and he rather grumpily blurted out that 'I heard, but couldn't get my mouth (brain) to shutup to address it.' Now I know if I wait he will work an answer back into his monologue if he can hold steady for that long. Usually I simply let myself enjoy the fact that he wants to share with me and let him drain out, and pay attention for him revealing things. By the time he begins to wind down, I can usually add in my own pov. If it is chasing tangents, then I follow with him and wait until he finishes and swings around again before I start the next bit of the sentence. It is a game now to see who can make the tangent labyrinth bend back to the original point no matter how unrelated (and this is how I got an academic paper about medieval ethics and Transformers, hah!). He is allowed memory prompts to keep him going, as am I. Meaningful conversations consequently take time - sometimes days if he is switching and forgetting topics - but in we both get heard and it was an interesting journey. And at least when he then goes and forgets a conversation entirely, it is never really repetitive. Now, on the odd occasion that he is fully there and wants me to hold court, I find it strange and lonely.
As for him not being able to share in my interests and what to do with that? It is frustrating, we are different people and I can't change it. So I make sure I have lots of friends who share them, and will tolerate slow moving films (I make him watch action-horror films with me that I would otherwise never sit through, as he loves them and will always talk the whole way through and distract me from the suspense). I also talk about future planning and dreams with my closest friends, and they help me bring him along. The side bonus is that I now have some incredibly close friends and when he is off hyper focusing I have a life. And sometimes, I get so damn enthused that I am the one gesticulating wildly and running over him - ... and then, we can add something new to the repertoire.
So................. hope something in there assists? :)