My husband ruins nearly every vacation, but always blames others (usually me) for getting very upset, getting drunk, etc.
After awhile (I can be slow ...lol) I realized that he doesn't do well away from the comforts and routine of home. So, when I needed to travel for a family wedding (I hadn't seen my family in nearly 3 years!), we agreed that he would stay home and I would go alone.
He promised that he wouldn't drink while I was gone and that he'd take care of everything. I called him the first morning after I arrived and he seemed fine. I called the second morning, and he seemed fine. He asked a couple of questions, but nothing big because he wasn't having to do anything really except feed the pets each day (he's retired).
That late afternoon of the 2nd day, my sister hosted a large dinner party in my honor. Shortly after the dinner started, H called. I answered (because he gets mad if I don't answer), and it was obvious that he was VERY drunk. I quickly went into a bedroom, closed the door, and H began to whine and complain about how terrible his day was and how he'd been drinking for 2 days straight. I guess when I spoke to him that 2nd morning, he must have "slept off" the booze from the day before. I told him that the phone call was keeping me from the dinner party, but he told me to "shut up" and listen. I could NOT get off the phone. Simply hanging up or getting off the phone before he agreed would just anger him and cause him to do something terrible (like break my things or drive drunk to get more booze). I was paralyzed by this situation, feeling like I was in a lose/lose situation.
After telling him several times, including CRYING, that I was missing the dinner party and needed to get back to the party, he finally let me get off the phone, but I had missed the dinner.
The next day, I called him and he had NO MEMORY of the night before. In fact, he actually reprimanded ME for not just turning off my phone! Believe me, when I've tried that before he has retaliated by breaking my things or other terrible behaviors.
He also accused me of taking his phone calls in order to "make him look bad" to my family. While I didn't tell my family that he was the one calling, they're not stupid so they knew, but said little to me about it. They knew that I was embarrassed and upset over missing most of the dinner.
The next day, my cousin took me out to dinner and during THAT dinner (when the food just arrived at the table!), H texted that one of our dogs was having an issue (very sick) and that I needed to call him immediately. I stepped outside the restaurant and called him. H was obviously drunk again, and began ranting that I'm the worst wife in the world and that he was going to just get into my new car and drive to another state with it and never be heard from again. Of course, he said that he was going to abandon the pets in our home (one of the dogs needs an important medicine twice daily). He knew that I was across the country, and it was late evening and that there was no way that I could get back in time to deal with this. I quickly had to call one of our kids to go over to our home. Of course, H was later VERY angry that I did that because it made him "look bad". Ugh.
H is now threatening to "move out" the moment I get home. That may sound like a blessing but it's not really. To get back at me, he'll sign a lease at a luxury expensive apartment in order to make sure that I have little money to live on. He's done this before.
I am sick over this.
He won't go back into rehab and he won't go to AA.
I'm sorry you had to endure
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
I'm sorry you had to endure this. Your husband's behavior reminds me of my former father-in-law's. As you probably know, my ex-h has been his parents' caregiver for several years now. On the very rare occasions when ex-h has taken a break (for example, to come to my house to see our daughters), his father will invariably call and tell ex-h that things aren't going well and that ex-h must return immediately. I think this behavior is passive aggressive.
Pardon Me For Saying This....PI
Submitted by kellyj on
But that isn't what I'm seeing? Not exactly passive aggression in terms of your ex-h's father? Entitlement perhaps....and a fear of loss of control? This is completely manipulative...but in terms of your ex's father....who I assume is elderly and in need of care to a certain degree or he wouldn't have to be taking care of him...unless, his mother is too elderly to do that for him, if he they were in that typical, stereotype relationship....where "Mother"...as a grown man in that situation might call his wife ( which makes me a little nauseous )....along with "my better half"...or in the Hollywood version....."you complete me" ( gag barf )...I get the sentiment...but not the behavior in this case? Actually...I do get the behavior...and this is exactly the end result? This guy...couldn't probably cook a hot dog...without reading the instructions on the label first? Now what I mean? And now that "Mother"..is out of the picture and can't do that for him.....guess who's up to the plate? Dear old son? That doesn't make any sense...does it? He might react with anger..and he might tell his son to come home ( which is manipulative ) but...at the end of the day and what this looks or sounds like...is fear more than anything. And feeling insecure.....and out of control? I could give him father a little bit of the benefit of the doubt ( without knowing more? ) just because he's old.....like me? Ha! Not yet at least but I'm getting there! lol
Both my parents when they got to a certain place...and especially when my father was dying of emphysema.....he got very "child like" and would pout ( really ) when my mom was not there to wait on him hand and foot during the last couple years of his life? He really was disabled at that point....but he regressed, badly speaking.....in that case which I had never seen that before in my entire life? To be helpless and be out of control like that for the first time in his life....he DID NOT......respond well and these kinds of behaviors, really started to emerge? And I use to be Mr Passive Aggressive myself so I know what passive aggression looks like? It has more of a "Fuck You" attitude to it....and is more obstinate and defiant.....not so much out of fear or lack of control? And it isn't designed to manipulate...per se....it is designed to thumb your nose at the person....instead of manning up and saying so to their face?
Ow's husbands behavior sounds soooooo familiar? "I'm going to leave....if you don't play right?" Waaaahh!!!! As much as this behavior...can totally throw you off you game.....if a person like this is kicking sand in your face.......then time to get out of the sand box...and just not play at all? I'd call that regression......more than calling ( passive) aggression...if see what I'm saying?
I'll bet she's right...and he won't leave? He may go through all of that....just to get her to "come back to the sand box and play the way I want ". I think that's the goal...even if he has no idea that this is what he's doing? I personally feel....that if you want to "untrain" someone who's been "trained" to do this? Don't do anything....but don't do what they want either? This is the exact same pattern that keeps happening with wife....and when I don't let it effect me...and don't react or do anything but exactly what I was going to do before that happened.....I got what I wanted....they in respect to "directing you"...or.... "dictating" to you.... the WAY they want it...in essence.....first you don;t give them what they want if they are "dictating" to you....and then when they pout and pitch a fit and threaten you with sanctions....you don't react or respond. Then when they're done pouting and pitching a fit and stop reacting to you.....then they calm down and come back...and then you give them what they want? In that order. Basically "untraining them" and teaching them that "dictating" doesn't work? But if they play nice and stop kicking sand in your face...then you'll come back and get back in the sand box...and continue to play after the time out? So to speak in the terms of "regression"...like a child?
Is this a royal pain in the ass? OMFG!!! And who knows...they might not ever come back...but if I were a betting man....I'd lay money on my first instincts on that? Options two might happen....but as they say....good things come, to those who wait?
I only wanted to add one thing I thought about....after watching my almamater lose as Football today and what I said earlier today in remembering my time with swimming and water polo? ( starting at age 6 years old? ) If there was one thing I learned from competing in sports ( and why I love them so much? ) Is not from learning how to win....but learning more importantly....how to lose?
The drama...that exists on the playing field....is just a re-enactment...of the drama ...in real life? If I had not done what I did...and compete on a completive level in sports in a serious way....I wouldn't be here right now...and would have probably been....??????? ( in jail??? or even worse....dead?? ) Sports saved my life...in no uncertain terms. And I mean that literally and very seriously...for me it was the difference between life and death?
If I had a child ( which I don't ) the one thing I would absolutely insist on...is some form of serious sport competition ( none of this PC...and every child gets a trophy Bullshit ). I'm talking bout failure...and loss.....and then having to come back the next day...and do it again and experiencing the "agony of defeat"...as well as the "thrill of victory" . That's ..."what I talk about". "What you talk about?" ( that one right there ).
J
J, I think you're right.
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
J, I think you're right. Passive aggression is not the right term. Entitlement and fear of control definitely are involved.
A Shining Moment......PI
Submitted by kellyj on
Right before my wife was leaving to go to Thanksgiving with her brothers family ( which left me at home since there was this thing my wife does very similarly ) where she is "directing and dictating" to everyone else....thinking she is actually ( communicating what she wants )....but does not allow for dissent or the chance to input into it your self? It is a huge problem and it feels very disrespectful and as I said earlier....it puts you in the position...of having to be the "bad guy"...or the "bearer of bad news". And pretty consistently....you, as the messenger or bearer of bad news....is the one who gets the "shaft" so to speak? lol "Don't shoot the messenger!!!".....even when it's the truth? Actually....strike that...and reverse it....the truth...is what she is avoiding and doing her best not to hear in the first place because as she "blurted out" in the moment as an immediate "reaction"...she has said......"well...you could say NO!!! " as her reasoning for doing this? I'm not approaching her with this behavior ( God NO!!! )....because this would only create a fight right then.....but when I do the twenty questions thing I use to do.....and kind of back her into a corner with logic...she gets down the last question ( down to the nub ) and out comes....."well you could say NO!!! "....which at first, my reaction was ...."Well yes.....that's the point? Duh????? You're not giving me the chance to say NO or Yes....you are conveniently ( for you only )...eliminating the possibility in the first place so I can't say NO ( you idiot errrrrrr!!!! )" Which is coming from this exasperating process of circular reasoning and irrational logic...and then having to spend 1/2 hour of twenty questions and narrowing it down ( for her )....to finally .......squeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze......even that much out of her? The " well you could say NO??" part? When my wife says she wants to talk....what she's saying is she wants to direct me ( or control me ) and "tell me what to do". No matter which way she tries to mask this or cover for this....when she says she wants to talk.....that's not what she wants at all. What she wants is to control of direct you...and for you to agree with her...that's what she wants but is approaching me in this completely dishonest way instead and pretending she wants to "talk". Because those are the words she uses. "I want to talk"....which...is you want to "talk" to someone ...since you they are telling YOU...."Hey...I want to talk"....one might assume.....since it's you that they are saying it to.....that they "want to talk" ...or "have a talk"....with YOU? Or sometimes she will even ( more dishonestly say )...can WE talk ....which again...is not what she wants since the action speak louder than words and the actions say " I WANT TO TALK".....at face value. That's it. Instead of....I have a need to say something to you....which now.....that means something entirely different in that.....YOU talking or saying anything....is not required? DUH???
At the end of any of these exchanges....the consistent facts as they are in every single exchange are:
1) I want to talk.
2) I end up listening
3) Disagreeing with anything she says is met with hostility and anger
4) I never get a chance to input my feelings, thoughts, or anything I want to say into the conversation and if I try and do this....she shuts it down imediately.
or
She says she's not interested or other hurtful things in a moment when I am expressing my feelings. She's even gone as far as saying....."I don't agree". Don't agree? With my feelings? How completely dismissive and actually very disrespectful and boorish on top of it? It really is like having a conversation with a child at times even though my wife in all other ways...does not act like a child or wants to be treated like one. In fact...the message she is sending...suggests that she wants to dominate you and control you which a child really can't do.....which is precisely to the point.
A child....cannot get away with that even if they tried.....but an adult...now wanting the same thing in the same way as a child....has the ability to do this and more....has the ability to act and think like and child...and carry out their "wishes"....where before when they tried to do this as a child....they could not get away with doing that since something or someone else...would be preventing that from happening ie: their parent...calling them on the carpet for this behavior and giving them a correction or worse if they had a tantrum....sent them to their room? That would be considered normal and completely acceptable to the point....."failure" on the part of a parent...letting a child get away with this....would be negligent..on the parents part to a certain degree even though as we all know....no one is perfect and a parent can't be a parent every waking second and has got other things to think about for themselves which to that degree....is human and humane even then for all those considered here?
I want to stop here...with what I just said...and not add any more to it than that. The reason for this...was the shining moment I spoke of....which applies directly to this and even more....100% ..hit the Bullseye....BINGO....( however ) in everything my T has ever told me about attachment theory and the way these things work? This is where....my T....gets a Cupy Doll...for foreseeing or foreshadowing the future for me and showing me what to look for ....so I could see it when it came? And it finally did come.....right before my wife was leaving to go out of town and after we had gotten into...once again....from my wife doing the same exact thing...the same exact pattern...and the same exact results although this time...the results were not what she wanted? And the reason for that was....I refused to go after this completely dishonest way of manipulating me...or attempting to circumvent..my ability to say what I wanted...of even give me the chance? ( well you could say NO...keeps ringing in my ears loud and clear ). And because I could say NO...she doesn't give me the chance? But by not giving me the chance...she ( by this very action itself ) is making it impossible for me to give to her....what she wants so she ends up with it being me.....on the losing end of it......or her....on the losing end of it....which is an "absolute failure" recreating itself....in every and all situations?
I already went through my litany of every possible way my wife "does not plan"...to the point...as I said which I will say this only one time. If she tried any harder than she already is....in creating a plan ( as she calls it ) that would preclude her from ever getting what she wants....any more than what she is getting now.....she could not do it any worse in making sure she will never get it ever. Her plan ( or scheme as it appears to me? ) is designed in a way to sabotage ( everyone ) including herself in this entire "plan" she has devised? She is the one who used the word ..."Plan"...."I'm a Planner" she says.....more like..."schemer"....which is not a plan as I said? But this is not done intentionally either...and it took me a while to believe that...because at first this was almost too unbelievable that someone could be that obvious...and stand there with a bold face and say these things to you? At face value again...it looks like a lie....but it isn't a lie in this case...it really is something else...and the shining moment shows ( me )...and will show you why? Like I said....my T....gave me the sight or vision...to cut through the red tape...and see this for what it is...which is the pattern and where it all started? And yes.....fear and trust....with no ability for control of something...and that something is the thing which involves these major components or reason why this is?
As she sat there ( which was the culmination of me telling her exactly why I wasn't going by using a logical progression of thought on my part..and showing it to her that way without being angry with her? ( patience patience....she is taxing me beyond belief sometimes!!! )...this is what she told me.....
She said...her mother would do this thing with her that she remembers but she can only remember the worst moments which she described to me this way. She said she would come to her mother crying and upset...and her mother would tell her that this was annoying and to stop it. But in this moment she remembered aside from her mother actually telling her that "your crying" bothers me and I don't like it when you do. ( how selfish can you get? Can you even imagine? ) So now in this one time...she came to her mother for comfort and for help and crying and distraught and her mother just got up and moved to the other room without saying anything to her. Just got up and left her there crying without saying a word? ( Can you imagine? I can't even fathom this? ) And so she said...she then went to her mother again where she was ( chasing after her ) with a second attempt to get her mother to comfort her or give her what she needed from her? And again....her mother...got up...but this time...went to her bedroom...and then locked the door behind her so my wife could not get in. Without saying anything. Just got up ( again ) walked to the bedroom..and closed and locked the door. So now my wife said she went to the door outside her mothers bedroom and curled up outside the door...and cried herself to sleep and ended up sleeping there all night...until her mother woke up and open the door. And in the morning when her mother...woke up and opened the door and found her there curled up ( with her there all night sleeping on the floor )...her mother just looked down at her..and stepped over her...and continued on as if she wasn't even there.
I'm going to refrain from my usual....saying how I feel about her mother in this case. I don't think it's necessary ...and I don't think anyone will not understand how my wife might have felt right then? But this wasn't only right then....this was most if not all the time. This was the way her mother chose to deal with my wife...and without saying anything more.....that was the worst plan..or scheme...I have ever personally heard in my life?
So when I stop and consider this...and apply it to everything my wife has ever said.....there is a theme here that keeps repeating itself...and this story provides me will all the answers I will ever need to understand my wife?
J
Did you change your
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
Did you change your screenname? Wasn't it Rose Red or something like that?
What a dreadful thing to go through, OWW
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
So sorry that you're going through this.
Whatever it is motivating him is so manipulative. Reading this description you've given us tonight, I so want you to get your pets, yourself and your $ out of reach of his retaliation.
I understand that he's found what he thinks are your buttons, and hits them very hard when he wants to get some reaction out of you, with or without the alcohol in him, so what I'm going to say is most likely non-useful to your situation OWW, except the general thing that I think that nothing anyone does to acquiesce to a manipulator ever gets a manipulator to stop manipulating.... In my life time, tolerating a manipulator, or just eating the manipulation myself, or buckling to the manipulator and giving him/her what he/she demanded never ever got the manipulating to stop. I'm so sorry this has been happening to you for so long.
When we were dating, not married, my future partner went through a spell of intruding on every social event in which I was with someone. Always, always the phone would ring when I was with someone else. OWW, I know that what I did is NOT enough to address your situation, but I told him that from here forward I was going to turn off my phone when I was with someone else, and would turn it on after I was finished with whatever it was, a meeting, a lunch with someone, a coffee, a hair appointment, for heaven's sake. And I did it. And I still do it. I thought the interruptive calling was entirely inappropriate. And yes in my past I've been under the thumb of a manipulator, and the cellphone ringing when I was with someone else had the smell of manipulation about it. I didn't care how he handled not getting me to answer, but then I wasn't living with what you've lived with, he never trashed my possessions or harmed my finances or put my pets in any danger. But I was going to be darned if my then love interest worked his way into some repetitive obsessive behavior of breaking in on me and demand that I stop doing what I was doing, when I was doing anything away from him. That's sick. Full stop. Let the therapists explain that it was produced by his anxiety. I'm not anyone's shrink and darned if I was going to volunteer to be the ground of his not handling himself. I can't live with someone haunting me. Turning off the phone put a stop to the intrusive calls.
I know that in your case that just turning off the phone and not even hearing him try to disrupt your visit with others is not enough. He knows he has your pets hostage, and it's so awful that he does that retaliation of harming what you own, or your financial resources. I know that you can't "turn him off" when he deliberately disturbs you when you're doing something other than, I don't know, attending to him. So I think you need more than what I did in my situation, if this is ever going to stop for you. You need more than a phone shut off.
I really, really wish that you had a professional trained in dealing with obsession and/or alcohol abuse to help you strategize how to handled a control freak, and accomplish the steps of getting out of it. I know you've been in therapy about your relation. Do you have someone good at dealing with what your husband does?
I'm so sorry. I so want you away from all this. As you say, this is ADHD plus, not just ADHD.
Thinking about you, OWW.
Now
Thank you all for listening
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
Thank you all for listening and your comments.
Yes, he knows how to push my worry buttons with threats to pets, home, property, etc.
When I get back home in a couple of days, if he wants to stay, then we'll have to go to some therapist. I'll have to tread lightly with this because the last time we went to a couples therapist, the first meeting went well, but during the second meeting, H talked FIRST and did 80% of the talking for the session, and whenever I tried to speak, he called me a Liar, which the therapist reprimanded him for. The funny thing was that H talked first and said that it upsets him if anything suggests that he's lying, yet whenever I tried to talk, he'd call me a liar. The therapist noted that hypocrisy and H didn't like that.
After being "called out" by the therapist, H acted like a petulant child, putting his feet/shoes up onto the cream fabric sofa. I quietly asked him to remove his dirty shoes, and H refused. The therapist then insisted that H get his shoes off the therapist's couch.
H behaved so badly during that meeting that the therapist told H that he wasn't welcome back into his office.
Forget fixing him : ( Take care of yourself
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
OWW,
You're insightful, and see the patterns at home. I know you know this, so at best this is only encouragement, coming from me:
Wuf, your husband certainly has communicated that he will NOT cooperate in or receive therapy! What's his list again? No AA, no this, no that. And that acting like a mean out of control little boy with that last therapist, and getting booted out of therapy by the last therapist, who I gather was as man, so your husband wasn't pulling an anti-woman acting out thing....that's loud and clear isn't it? The man will NOT. Believe him. Since it's a matter of willing, you will not be able to force him into any therapy that will either help him, or help your relation with him, or help you. You don't need him to be judged by a therapist either. That last one made it loud and clear that at this point in your husband's life, he's not going to be affected for the good by therapy.
As you've been describing what your husband has been doing of late, none of it sounds like it's a product of ADHD, not a direct product. ADHD doen't make people be mean, do deliberately shitty things to other people and so on. As J has said, people with ADHD can (like everyone else) do shitty things out of dysfunction or moral lousiness that gets developed in the person due to the person not manning or womaning up and dealing with him/herself. It's all stuff that I've seen or heard of people without ADHD doing, including the drinking, the trashing the physical environment, the putting children and dogs at risk, the control freaky other stuff.
I haven't had your whole list of things yhour husband has done done to me, but goodness. ADHD, as you've said to us, is not all going on with yur husband...it's the "other stuff" that is making your life so painful with him. ....and ADHD doesn't "make" him do a one of the things he's done. At best (worst) things like forgetfulness, hyperfocus and fast flash anger are just booster rockets to the other stuff he's doing. Booster rockets and hidey holes for him to retreat into.
I'm not saying your husband doesn't have a very unhappy life in himself. He does. Yes he does. What I'm focusing on in this post are the acting out things that you've told us he's done to you repeatedly, and obsessively
OWW, it happened now quite awhile ago in my life but I had one relation that was such an agony that I couldn't figure out how to get myself out of, that I remember vividly being obsessively connected to somebody who did stunts of the kinds that your husband does. My obsessor would thieve from me; all of his damage to my property was "accident." Here's a question that I had to answer to myself in truth, and not in quick surface, self rationalizing truth: what keeps you hooked into his dysfunctional, deliberately damaging behavior pattersn? That's material for you and a therapist of your own, you don't need to lay out your soul to us about it online. But you have to deal with what ties you to his acting out behaviors.
It's not marriage. Marriage is the external container of how two people married treat each other. It took awhile for me to understand that whatever I thought a relationship was: a friendship, a marriage, a work relation, and whatever I thought I ought to do in such a relationship would never, ever control or take care of my relationship partner's decisions or behavior.
When I was stuck in an abusive relationship, and I was really stuck, here are some things that kept me tied to my user-abuser. You'll have your own. These are just mine. Until I dealt with MY unhealthy ties with my nightmare user of me...which I eventually figured out how to do and had the guts to do....he played me like a rubber ball, hammering me psychically, and then reeling me back closer to him. So my list, and what are your with your husband?
I worried profoundly about the wellbeing of the man who was playing me like a violin. In fact, I still wish him well, these many years later. But the thing is, his well being and my worry about it, he used as a hook to reel me in. To me it was the right thing to do with my soul. To him, my care for him was a weakness that he hit me in over and over again. I would tolerate, out of worry about him. For example. Manipulators have great eyes for these kinds of things. He figured out that I would tolerate, and then he had me tolerate more and more and more. His pranks, got bigger and bigger...he trusted and leaned on and used my tolerance of him and wishing him well. This is NOT a normal relation with another person.
I expected reciprocity: that if I helped him, he would reciprocate with something: appreciation of me, or backing off me. That was an illusion. He was playing a different relation game than I was, one that took advantage of mine.
I gave allllll that I could to him. I was a no-stop giver. Well, he just kept ratcheting up what he took, and took more and more of me. The weak link, as he defined and used it, was my self identity as a giver&dont count the cost type person. I won't get into the ugly particulars, but he tried to hack my bank accounts and drain them. Failing in that, he tried to drain me $ wise otehr ways. In fact our relationship ended the day that I told him that for the rest of eternity he would never get another nickel from me. And he never called back or tried again.
He acted (like it seems your husband is acting) like he was a life-incompetent, a poor little done to, out of it little boy. Wasn't THAT a ruse. Everyone has life problems. Most people on the earth are needy and have had bad things happen to them, even in the present. I fell into being the "adult" and the fixer upper and my old dragon of being the co-dependent caretaker. He was truly my one last tango around the dance floor with being the so-called "strong" one "with it" one, the one to "fix" everything, of codependency. I had to have it out with myself and figure out how to break those codependent linkages that I myself had extended to him to sieze, to get out of that one. It's like God gave me a case of what I had to work on that was so big and messy, that I couldn't rationalize myself out of, or outlast. A kind of Divine gift of Change or Die, NowOrNever.
OWW, I had to disconnect myself, I had to be the one to do it, from the person who was sucking me dry. He had NO motivation to stop what he was doing. He was, by his age, a self reinforcing user.
Don't waste your time trying to take a man who has announced and acted out that he will deliberately make a horrid mess of marital counseling to therapy. Go get a coach yourself, and I do mean a coach, not someone who goes back and dwells in the sessions on your childhood. You need whatever you need, that is NOT dependent on your husband's good will or participation. Please go get it for yourself. There will be somet hings that you have to do different, if you're going to get free of your husband's locked in, repetitive damaging behaviors.
It's that old thing that people bring up: craziness is doing the same thing over and over and expecting there to be a change. You're not crazy at all. Your wellbeing in your current situation HAS to come from you doing things different. He WONT voluntarily help. And he's still going to be there in his dysfunctions, which will continue to tug on your mind and heart to do something to ameliorate. You can't make him do anything, to make things better. Not at this point of his life.
There will always be a reason in your life as lived not to do for yourself, or to get the REAL help you need in your lived situation. There will always be a reason why not.
Who is more important, you? or him? If you say, him, I would then say, what's your evidence from your life, that you are not worth taking care of?
Bless you ( :) and please accept that from me). Yes we do care what you're going through.
Now
Adding a Bit of Insight to What You Said for OW
Submitted by kellyj on
NON...as I read what you were saying to OW....I absolutely recognized the pattern in everything you said and I wanted to resound a couple things that you have come to as your conclusions. ( mine as well )
As you said.....you realized that you were playing...and completely different relational game ( kind of wake up call perhaps? ) and like me...I started realizing that the "rules" of this game...are not the same rules that I was following and this was what was so unfair seemingly?
Without going back over the same ground twice....there was a very poignant moment...I remember my father, when he was teaching me...the "rules of the road" in business since even at the time ( just one of many ) when I went....hey wait a minute, that doesn't seem very fair? And my father would argue that....this is just the way business works. It's a dog eat dog world out there...and you've got to put food on the table at home? So I listened on to him tell me these things...which were no shock to me or anyone when you apply it too "caveat emptor"...let the buyer beware? This is old school kind of thinking in terms of sales and business practice and ethics and my father in that respect....was not the first one to say these things? But at the same time....(the general public ) was also catching on to this themselves and what you could get away with "back in the day".....you can't get away with now..and that's for sure since....no one is going to believe now...aside from the few who are too unaware and naive...to fall for it? The advent of the internet ( with Free information ) as kind of put a kink in the ability for those in control...to control the information needed and that much is really true. I've worked in this area ( or been exposed to it ) long enough....to see this all the time in sales and sales is by it's very nature ( can be but not necessarily ) manipulative. Done right...it is persuasive. Done wrong it's manipulative? Caveat Emptor....is not necessary...if persuasion is the Art or rule being applied in that case? To put this simply....there is nothing to beware of....even the person trying to sell you on what they are saying...is done in a honest way and they aren't trying to take advantage of you or capitalize on your weakness? Unfortunately...the problem here is....as a seller who gets paid to sell and they are rewarded by selling and get more money by doing it....any way they can? Then...they will do it any way they can....until they can't do that any more?
side note: My father told me what they use to do when trying to collect unpaid bills on credit ( since they had to do this at the ground level back then )..was to call the neighbor and ask the neighbor next time they saw them...to tell them they'd been there ( or called ) and let them know to come in ASAP..and pay up? Another one he said they use to do was what he called the "Dr Pepper" treatment. You know the old Dr Pepper bottles had "10" "2" and "4" written on them? They use to call these debtors at 10pm 2am and 4am....in the morning, to remind them to pay. But as you mentioned in what you are saying....that didn't necessary get them to pay just from the reminders? What got them to pay ( as my father explained ) was to bait them in coming into the store...by infuriating them so badly...that they would storm into the store and vent the wrath of God on him for the next 20 minutes...while he would just sit and listen to them...until they were done. And when he would be thinking about Baseball or what he was going to have for lunch during this download session...when they finished....all he would say was....."well, since you're here...can you make a payment?" And sure enough.....9 times out of 10....this worked and they got paid? Which was why they did it? Until they made laws preventing this which was the only reason they stopped?
And to the point....not only did my father.....know exactly what he was doing.....he knew exactly why he was doing it...and what he would get at the end? Spelled out...as these "rules of the game" are defined?
So now...I sitting there hearing him with yet another one of these lessons..and when it boiled down to was exactly this? What he called a "Schreiben"...which is German for "to write". Which means....the customer asks to see and item...and you the sales person pulls out the invoice and starts writing them up before they even say they want it? "And how are you going to pay for this...." while writing the invoice up at the same time. That's what "Schreiben" means in this case...to write it up...before they even say they agree or want it in the first place and if the customer is just too overwhelmed and feels too insecure to say No.....then NO....is circumvented by this rather aggressive and "Not talking No for an answer"...kind of approach? And when I told my Dad...."well, that doesn't seem very fair or actually a very nice thing to do to someone? He said....."if they are too stupid not to figure out what you're doing....then they deserve exactly what they get since everyone knows "caveat emptor" as being the "game" so to speak...."and if you are too stupid to not know the game we're playing....then you deserve to be taken advantage of." ( quote...end quote )
This came directly out of his mouth....almost word for word? So when someone says this too you with full awareness of what they are doing....and then it happens to you repeatedly and you see this clearly as them doing this too you and further....saying....."don't be an idiot...you fell for it again? " Literally....my father....toying with me to get me "with the program" ...but at least with me...he spelled out the rules in advance...so know...this was him training me and testing me....which I almost always failed? Why? I didn't think it was fair or right..and I didn't agree with him but it didn't stop him...from trying to teach me....'the way to play the game".
I know that's a little different than what you experienced...but I thought that might just provide the "inside scoop"...from the inside....which is saying the exact same thing. What my father failed to understand was.....that game may have worked in business ( yet now considered unethical )...what was considered "savvy " ( or shrewd ) business practice" in this somewhat "dysfunctional" and completely aggressive ( and boorish? ) and somewhat on the border or "grey area" between complexly dishonest and somewhat unethical way of approaching it or going about it ( old school .. "Schreiben" as he called it ) It's not that it still doesn't exist...and you still have to be watching for it, yet most people in todays world...would never go back to a place that does business like this...but then again...they didn't have "Yelp" or "The better business bureau" ( along with the internet ) that would blow the whistle on them and no one was aware of this...until it was too late? But, because it works by the numbers. So directly saying....they might not get away with it 4 out of 10 times.......but 6 out of 10 times makes more money than 4? Do the math...at the end of the day, week, year...they have more money than you do...in this scenario and that's....the bottom line..as they say?
J
Playing by different rules
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
"Playing by different rules" is such a good summary of these situations. It brings to mind a moment of truth for me that occurred a few years ago. My ex-h was by that time his parents' full-time caregiver but we were still married. By full-time caregiver, I mean that ex-h was living with his parents and had spent approximately 350 days (24/7) of that year at his parents' home. At least one of our children was home for Christmas. I requested that ex-h try to come home to see our daughter. He did come, for a day or so, and I very much appreciated that. But he told me that his father objected to him coming and that his father said, "You know, your mother is part of your family, too." I was gobsmacked. Would ex-FIL think he was getting enough attention only if ex-h was at his home 365 days per year? I realized that ex-h's father was willing to say anything, no matter how outrageous, to try to get ex-h to never leave; I, on the other hand, operate with some basic rules of decency and honesty and rationality. It was like being in parallel universes.
Ivy
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
I can imagine that it WAS being in parallel universes. In some ways a person trying to operate by the basic rules of decency, honesty, and rationality is, at least for a while, a sitting duck for someone like your former FIL who was willing to say anything, or, it sounds like, get other people to do what he wanted, to get his way.
I hope you're patient with yourself Rosered P. Ivy. You have been through a lot. You always intended and sought to do the right thing, in a very, very hard situation. You've still got a heart that's battered, so do small things for yourself OK. I respect you very much. There's a lot to you.
Now
J, thanks.
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Find what is binding you to something you know is not healthy for you or holding you back, and release it. Turn loose of it. That's your job, not the other person's.
10/4 That's the Challenge
Submitted by kellyj on
And writing it all down here...is helping me do so. Thanks again for being a sounding board. It helps :) One thing here, giving my wife credit where credit is due? I myself.....had to relearn many of the things I was taught...in effort to comply with what I was told to do? If you are mislead down the wrong path...it only means you just don't know any better but there is a reason for that which is not your fault? If I can forgive myself for that much...and I can forgive my wife for nothing less? And just as a comparison to the thing that OW is saying? I learned the wrong ways...but did the right thing more often than not? I see the same qualities with my wife and my T has spoken to this himself saying...he doesn't see the motivation as being the same...even if that pattern as one you learn...is sending that message in the same way? I tend to give the benefit of the doubt in all cases to my wife...and it appears to me...that many of the same things are missing with her...as they were with me? One or two symptoms...or even a misguided pattern...does not make a diagnosis? Finding a way to release what I know from what I see..and allow another answer to emerge is challenging at best...but the biggest credit due of all for my wife is remorse and humility which she has.....but just many times after the fact? The same as me which is different than what OW is experiencing with some similarities...but not all of them? The one main difference was within the story of OW going into the therapist in comparison to my wife. My wife doesn't argue or act out AT ALL with him. Mainly...she has just expressed that she doesn't always understand and has trouble following him and for the most part...gets frustrated with the experience in thinking it's not doing any good? More than anything....I see the change even if she doesn't which just proves what I am saying? She is so unaware of her self...and just able to see clearly....that she can't even see the benefits that are showing...which in my mind...is the seed that is starting to grow but very slowly. What I see more than anything...is exactly to the point here for someone with ADHD vs something else instead of on top of it? A lot of confusion. A lot of unawareness of any damage she is causing....but even if she sees it....gets so overwhelmed and so flustered that she tunes that out of her mind.
What is there...is remorse. What is hard is to admit it. What she is unaware of...is her methods and why they are bad ones...but more than anything in what I was just showing with my father for example.....not necessarily...wanting to exploit or exploitation as being the goal or motivation? More than anything....not having a good example of another way to be and being kind of oblivious?
Oblivious...is the operant word for someone with ADHD....just like me..or at least...use to be with only a couple of holes here and there...that need a little work? As my T said to me early on...."it has the flavor of it...but is not the same thing?" In a general way....I don't like the flavor...but I can get use to that as long as the rest of it is not there which as far as see....it's not..and not the same thing?
What I see more than anything...is my wife being the second generation and the effect.( or by product )..less the cause ( or the product itself ) Kind of like me...but without the good examples I've had if that makes sense? That pattern however....is really a problem and getting someone out of it...is a difficult thing? I keep asking myself the same thing I have always been asking here...what am I willing to live with..and what am I not willing to live with? Not being in too big a hurry..and working and focusing on myself....is still the best approach I think. Time will tell and I have that go give right now? I'm not in any rush but I will keep my eye on the ball?
J
Mixed "Messages"....".Nice Guys Finish Last"
Submitted by kellyj on
This a definitely....a rationalization ( and excuse ) and a black and white one at that. Being "NICE" as I have said....could be said differently as "not being assertive and easily taken advantage of". Nice people....don;t go around exploiting other poeple so to say this as saying....don't be a nice person...is really an excuse giving someone using this expression....full license to a shitty person...exploit others weakness's, and take advantage of them which in black and white terms...the opposite of being NICE. Like saying there only two types of people...Nice ones...and not nice ones....speaking from a not nice one who see's the other half and something to take advantage of.
As I reinterpret this myself....I can change the wording to say the thing differently. A nice person who is assertive and is not easy to take advantage of....is still a nice person? And from the perspective of a person who's looking for Nice people who are naive to take advantage of.....then this is saying or validating themselves as being "not a nice person"....and almost saying the opposite in that....I'm a Nice person....but those easy pick'in nice people always finish last?
This really came to be apparent when OW made the mention in her therapist office ...when her husband was speaking out orf both sides of his mouth right in front of both her and the therapist...and the therapist called him out on it. The hypocrisy of it all?
And seen as a weakness...and seen as something "not to aspire too"....both her and the therapist ( from this Nice Guys Finish Last kind of thinking ) are both....Nice people...but nice people finish last and I don't want to finish last since I'm a nice person but I'm not? Wait a minute? Oh never mind. Nice guys finish last and that's that!!
I can tell you one thing growing up as a boy. This is the mixed message that was sent..and it was clear as to why since...if you were nice...you got screwed....or so I thought? I did learn this lesson the hard way...and it seemed to play out just as described until I realized the mixed message within this as an excuse....to be an asshole and saying.....this is why I am one. So I don't finish last?
And Last.....is also part of the confusion because Last.....infers winning.....but in this case....last means....never lose and the ends justify the means. It's the "Green Light'..so to speak...to justify the ends by any means possible so as ...not to lose? I thought about this right after remembering these "lessons" I was taught...and I recalled one time in particular..hearing my father screaming at my mother in a fight ( about me ) saying....."it's your fault that he so passive!!!!"....as meaning...."passive is bad"...."Nice guys finish last"...and your the one who corrupting him and it;s all your fault!!!"
The confusing mixed message this compete Bullshit of a statement along with the way my dad saw things...really boils down to....he was an asshole (and he exploited people because of it )and made no qualms about it. To the point of being proud of it.....and giving reason as to why?
And with me....there is nothing wrong with being a nice person or one who is passive. Nothing wrong what so ever only....it's not good for you to be exploited or easily manipulated but....more over...there is nothing wrong with being naive in that.....to say that you deserve to be taken advantage of being your nice or naive...is no justification to do so...and that speaks more to the person who is saying this non sense...than it does about you....being a naive person.
But if you are that person....( as I am only not so naive anymore )...that doesn't say you have to "BE NICE"...as my mother was saying which is in effect...what she learned how to be...by someone is reinforcing the "Be Nice" part...which makes it good them.....who is also saying "'NICE PEOPLE" ARE EASY TARGETS...SO THEREFORE...FINISH LAST?
I hope that's confusing since it should be? "Nice people"....and / or......"BE Nice"....in this case....mean two completely separate things? The prior...being a good thing....the latter....not so good? Speaking in black and white terms but saying...these words are not what they appear to be...as said until you see the "excuse" and see what that person has to gain for saying it...from and exploitive point of view? For all that matters....and really nice person....may appear like a complete asshole at times....and an apparently Nice appearing person ( BE NICE acting ) could be anything from a wolf in sheep clothing...or a completely innocent and naive person and everything in between?
BE NICE....is code for.....( mixed message ).....that goes hand in hand with "Nice guys finish last"....is code for what...in what respect? Where's the race? What's the goal? And who wins in this race? My experience says...the person saying it. The proof may be in the pudding .....but the results will tell the tale?
J
Hi OWW, You just have to let the chips fall.....
Submitted by c ur self on
You are allowing him to manipulate you and control you out of fear....I'm not saying it's an easy thing to break free of, but, the ball is in your court....Fear of not taking his calls when you are obviously busy because he might destroy your stuff??. ..Do you know how dysfunctional that is? I'm no advocate for divorce, but, my spouse would have one time to attempt to abuse me in that way, and she would be living alone...Spouse's aren't Mother's, we aren't their counselors' and we aren't AA....You husband needs some counseling, someone to hold him accountable....And because you *Know*??, what to expect, you need to do what he said...Cut that phone off, and check on him when you have time....And just expect him to be a responsible adult or suffer the consequences' of his own actions....You can't save him, no more than I can save mine....Our job is important in our marriages, (it takes two) and when we start mothering and trying to fix or save them, be usually lose sight of what we should really be doing....
C
Strength vs Weakness....What Does That Look Like?
Submitted by kellyj on
C....as I read through what you said...you put this extremely well? And I'm still applying this "Nice Guys Finish Last" comment to it in terms of a man...and "showing weakness". I really don't think it's all that different between a man and a woman in the behaviors but they just show up in different places because the "shame" is different? ( Brene Brown again )
I'm recalling again my days in swimming where ( which is unusual in sports ). Boys....girls....men....woman....all belong to the same team together and even get scored together many times. And you work out together....swim the same distances and do everything the same.....no difference. They don't slit you up into two separate groups. No no......the girls do exactly the same thing as the boys to and swim side by side or in the same lane together....and the only thing that separates the genders is speed. And you have 4 different strokes and every stroke is different and now....each person is better or worse...depending on the stroke your swimming and this even makes this spread...even easier to see?
So in my past and one time I remember well...was in high school when I was at the top of my game after 11 years of training. There was a girl ( young woman ) named Jo ( as she went by short for Joanne ) who was a "monster" ( a high compliment ) who was an All American ( the highest status or honor given) in Butterfly. And just a point of reference here...she was very attractive and not masculine at all and quite a "girl" in all respects. And with me at the time...I was putting in some record times so the two of us...as those "chips fell"...were neck and neck in times except...she was a Butterflyer...and I was a Back stroker....but our Freestyle times were almost even Steven. So ...we swam in the same lane together and I would lead off first in training sets and her right on my heels. Our times were only 1 or 2 seconds apart with mine being only a tiny bit faster than hers but for the most part on any given day...we were about the same? And there was this other girl who was a distance swimmer...who could beat everyone at distance ...male of female on the team. No one could keep up with her in a distance swim so everyone was slower than her? She was also an all American ( rated ) swimmer. ( another "monster" lol )
Okay...so here's how this plays out in respect to what you and I are saying. Both of the girls...were exceptional.( strong...oh yes ) And I was in the running as a boy at the time? But these two girls...could clean the floor with me ( on the same floor ) when it came to Butterfly and distance swim. I mean...beat the pants, my suit and any other material I had on me any day of the week and they did....everyday of the week all the time?
So in speaking about "strength" and who's better? Did that make me then...."weak" in comparison to them? Absurdly NOT!! I could clean there clocks in Backstroke with my eye closed in fact...Jo swam Butterfly and I swam Backstroke at the same time..in the same lane..and we were neck and neck in every race with me only being slightly ahead but...I had to work my ass off to stay that way? If I let up for a second...she would beat me even though we were swimming two different strokes but when the wall came to the end...we were right there together. On top of this....these two girls were the only once close to me in times on the whole team ( the high school one not the private one I swam for ) so...I swam with these two girls in my lane instead of boys at the time because all three of us were approximate in our times when you averaged everything out. This is just in work outs on a day to day training basis mind you...there is no "winner" or "race" per se....you are just put with people of the same "times" no matter what gender they are?
But in respect to strength ( and will power and internal strength ) these two ladies were exceptional in all respects ( which is why they wer All Americans by definition ) but I wasn't an All American because my times ( for a boy ) were not quite that fast? But the bottom line here is....they beat me in their respective "stroke" or "distance"...hands down and it was not even a fair race in that sense? But in turn.....they couldn't even be classed in the same category with me in a full on sprint or in backstroke and that wouldn't be fair in that case either in a fair race even though they were considered "All American" and I wasn't because of the times for girls compared to boys? So what does that prove? You tell me...but it didn't make me "weak" in comparison to them...even if they beat me?
BUT....I can tell you...and there is no questioning this or no surprise what so ever? You get a guy who is not very sure of himself..and kind of ( weak ..in how he see's himself ) in that respect....and you put him (suddenly in that situation he's never been in before ) and now "GIRLS"...are taking him to the cleaners....he's not going to respond well and especially in that "Nice Guys Finish Last" mind set? No only is a "guy" ..not beating him...it's a girl!!! OMG!!! His self worth is plummeting because "boys".... are suppose to be "stronger" than girls" which on average....they are physically but only by a tiny margin. I was not an All American...only because of that time variant being slightly slower for a girl in comparison to a guy but it was only a few seconds slower in comparison?
And so in this one area for example.....it shows me at least....that woman and men are not all that far from each other after all? Those girls swam the exact same distances, swam the exact same workouts and endured the exact same amount of pain and suffering as the boys did...;.exactly. The only difference was time but only by a few seconds when you compare Apples to Oranges as being boys and girls? But the girls were just as capable as the boys and they made no distinctions what so ever and put us all in the same "pot" together and we all did the exact same thing. My couch didn't let the girls go home early or let the girls work less hard or do shorter distance because they were girls? Are you kidding me? They did it the same as the boys and some of them were even faster....so what does that prove? Nothing in my mind except...the expectation that girls are weaker physically in terms of endurance and strength..can only be measure in fractions and sometimes....girls were better and faster than some boys because of it? Both....were equally capable though...and that is the main point I wanted to stress here? I lived that "proof" on a daily basis...along with ALL those girls I swam with ...side by side. If I had this in my mind...that somehow....girls are weaker than boys...then that would not have sat well with me and I might have been embarrassed? Reality is...is exactly what I said and I learned the truth of reality by experiencing it and I can tell the difference ...or what made the difference for these girls over all other girls? They were mentally "tough" and extremely "strong" and in "will"....which was the only difference in comparison to a "girl".....who thought of herself as weak?
And the respect that these two girls received ( the ones I recall ) were held in high esteem by everyone including all the boys on the team as should be? You think...you had a lot of guys looking down on Jo and disrespecting her as "the weaker sex"...:"the little woman"....."the "fairer sex"...blah blah blah? Especially when she took them to "school"...and put a "hurt'in on em"....big time?? That'll learn ya!!! LOL What do you think?? LOL That is...when you are comparing Apples to Apples...in the real world of swimming because the only time an Apple became an Orange.....was on race day only when they separated us all out again..and you only swam against your respective gender?
All of this to me..."proves" exactly what I said. Woman...are not "weaker" than Men even in respect to "physically" unless you count "minutia" as your means to prove it which is kind stupid and ignorant? And pain is pain....man or woman. Do you think I expected more pain or less pain that Jo? The answer....the same and I know that as fact when the two us swam one right after the other everday and she hit the wall...only a second behind me which makes up for my God given strength as a young man in my prime...compared to a young woman in her prime? The only variable in all of this which makes the difference is talent..and nothing else? A talented girl in that respect.....wiped the floor with less talented boys when all thing become equal and "strength"...had everything to do with what upstairs ( or these misconceptions that are were taught and made to believe which are fabrications in themselves and lies )...and nothing to do with the way you are born or any physical difference aside from the minutia or fraction of a fraction difference? And just because any one person is slower than the other.....makes no difference in the pain they experience either? All those girls experienced the same pain as the boys equally...every day....day in day out....all the time. No difference? And they did exactly what the boys did...and sometimes better? That's reality...and that's what my expectation are built around?
So keeping everything even....if you have 10 bucket of water to lift into a truck for example....a woman should be able to lift all 10 buckets the same ....only slightly lighter based on her inherent capability? She should be able to do everything a man can do in the same way...work just as long....feel the burn and endure the pain...and come out the same as a man in every situation exactly with the same exact results and experience and no one is stronger in that case...man or woman as long as the weight was only say....a few pounds less ...at most...in keeping everything exactly even and that would be a very fair expectation for a woman to do? It take no talent...to lift a bucket of water into a truck...in keeping with this analogy?
But this is not how it plays out however...and this is where I have to realign my thinking about this when my wife complains it's hard? What is hard for her...is not hard for me...and the reason is because she is "weak"...but "weak" not in the physical sense? If I expect her to work the same as I do...then in theory based on what I said. She should be able to do everything I do...as long as I do it..and can "lift" in terms of weight....only a tiny fraction less than me..and experience no more pain than I do but....that's not the case and she makes excuse for being "weak in mind, body and spirit" and uses the "female card" to do it which in my opinion...is a Bullshit maneuver on her part to get out of working hard and lay that all on me? But because she says she "can't"..or has this misconception that men are stronger....she takes it easy on herself..and quits when the pain comes on? I don't feel less pain that she does...but she is not "tough" in that respect....like Jo or this other girl I mentioned. Tough...could be viewed as........having the "right stuff"...or having "what it takes"...speaking in terms of "toughness".
And that right there...is all in your mind? Men and woman are equals ( if you're not splitting hairs ) but the expectations and how it is presented is the only difference here?
Ironically...it's the weaker people ( gender aside ) who are the ones who compensate for ( that weakness alone ) by making excuses, blaming it on gender, and blaming it on what ever they want to blame it on.....because in reality...there is not difference what so ever? And because of this...when you get right down to it as I saw in the girls I swam with...they were respected, they were not looked down upon..and no one treated them like they were weak and if they did.;;;they had another thing coming? That other thing was shame which is behind all of this IMHO?
I you want to point fingers and blame something here? Blame it on shame and weakness.....not capability or physical strength? Aside from inherent talent...the only difference is mental weakness which has nothing to do with IQ or ADHD or anything else you can blame it on? If I use this criteria to see things as they really are in reality...then when you shake this all out and sift it down to the bottom.......weakness of mind and will...and the side effect of shame...is the only difference and that's it?
And in respect to what you are saying with OW.....you could look at all her husbands issues here in terms of weakness and strength? She is stronger than he is...and he's just insecure about his weakness's here, and trying to compensate by doing what he's doing so he won't have to face the fact that he may not be as "good"...as he thinks he is in comparison? If he wasn't...then none of this would be happening if you stop to think about? It would be the same thing as if I "thought"...I was faster than Jo in Butterfly..and every time I hit the wall and she was right behind me....it made me angry because of it? And I would never acknowledge or give her credit because...I believed I was faster than Jo...even though she beat me every time? And everyone is there watching this and laughing at me saying so? But I'm bound and determined to prove that I'm Better than Jo....because men are stronger than girls and that would make me a big sissy and a girl...to have a girl beat me which is just stupid...what else can I say? Here I am getting beat everyday by Jo...and I will not admit it and tell everyone I'm faster than she is. While everyone is sitting there watching her beat me...and I refuse to admit it...even right when it's happening?
But in the same vein now in reverse....Here I am saying....Jo is much faster than me in Butterfly..but the expectation is...I'm a boy...and boys are stronger than girls so I should be able to beat Jo. What's wrong with you? You big sissy girly man.....get in there and beat her like a "man"....what, you're going to let a "girl:" beat you like that? And here I am saying....but she's more talented and she is much better than I am at Butterfly?? What's YOUR problem you idiot!!! And to a certain degree...this happens too? You can't even admit that your weaker..and you can't swim Butterfly as fast? The expectation remains the same....."but she's girl you big pussy!!! " Ridiculous...going into the absurd it's so ridiculous!!!
Shame unfortunately...works both ways and the inverse effect works both ways too which is all a pack of lies and none of it is true. Yet....why do people still believe this non sense because it is all just none sense..and makes no sense what so ever? But still....people believe it which only proves my point? And in my mind....the solution here is clear.....stop believing what is not true...and start believing what is? How hard is that...I ask? It takes no physical strength...to believe something ( or not? )
And this is why I think....that shaming people has the opposite effect ( or trying to guilt someone into doing something ) because...if you are stronger..and they are weaker....then the stronger person is only going to come across as a bully.......if they think that the other person is stronger than them....which will only create more shame..and more of the behaviors you don't want by trying to do it that way.
Women...are not...."weaker" inherently than men....it's just these lies that we are taught...getting in the way. In reality as far as strength goes....men and woman are fundamentally equals and they should be able to do exactly the same things side by side...with only a fraction of a difference but yet...that's not how it works...and these lies and excuses are the only thing to validate these lies and make them true? It's all in your mind and no where else?
It's why when my expectations of my wife..is to do these things for her self...I am not expecting her to do anything...I wouldn't do myself but her weakness of mind...is what I have to consider and that is a difficult things to assess....especially when she is doing everything in her power...to hide that from view and refuses to admit it? If she was honest about it...then we could sit down and talk about it but that's not reality for now...and it is what I have to accept?
J